Thank you for having Dr. Flowers on your podcast. I think he is far more brilliant than he portrays himself. It baffles me that he is not more well-known and is discouraging to witness a lot of the backlash he gets. It’s also refreshing to see a show that has all my favorite scholars and theologians all on the same podcast. Including Brown, Keener, Winger, and Storms. Thank you for all that you do and the topics you aren’t afraid to cover. We need more programs like this.
Micah Rydmark thanks Micah. We are really trying. God keeps opening doors to these interviews, we are so thankful to learn from these theologians. Idk why they keep saying “yes” lol.
I've listened to Dr. Flowers quite a bit and compared to some other quote unquote scholars he is muxh easier to gleen from because he doesn't have that arrogant condescending tone that many with his credentials display. I also happen to vehemently agree the points he makes, he assisted my exodus from Calvinist leanings
I thank God for Dr. Flowers. I was a Calvinist for many years, but there was so many nagging questions. His humility and love in how he communicates is genuinely how I was able to listen to his teachings when I disagreed with him, and was able to work those questions.
We see that the church crystalizes doctrine in the face of error. There is no mention of "Calvinism" until the 1600's. Prior to it, the errors of Pelagius became dominant in the Roman Catholic system, which is the soil that Flowers is coming from. Flowers is a Semi-Pelagian in Protestant clothes. He is trying to say that human will did not get corrupted with the Fall. This view was condemned in the Council of Orange in 529 A.D. long after Augustian had died and 1000 years before Calvin.
Brethren, I thought that this was an inhouse debate. I thought that this was an issue that we can debate,discuss and yet not divide over. You act as if the free willers are out of the pale of orthodoxy and not even regenerate.
@@edwardwicks304 We rightly pointed out that everyone will be accountable to God. Even a believer will answer to God, they just won’t receive wrath in the way a non believer will. Have you read any of the other comments calling Calvinism heresy and demonic? Maybe those are ppl that need to be addressed
@Sir Isaac Newton please read & study 2 Corinthians 5:10. I already made clear that this judgement is not God’s wrath, but to think you won’t answer to God for your continuous sinful actions is very arrogant.
@@timcarr6401 It does seem to be an opposites - contradictory statement; it all depends how patient and hungry one is. When it is a hot day, long cool breezes are delightful. Paul would preach well into the night, so that a young fellow fell to the ground in sleep, Paul went to pray for him. He revived and the meeting continued to daybreak. Paul would have been called a long winded preacher. James on the other hand judging by his letter was very brief and pithy. Each was necessary. One wasn't better than the other.
@@pinknoise365 better than the typical Calvinist response of “I just don’t have an answer for this one! We can’t understand everything about God. Next question?”
We see that the church crystalizes doctrine in the face of error. There is no mention of "Calvinism" until the 1600's. Prior to it, the errors of Pelagius became dominant in the Roman Catholic system, which is the soil that Flowers is coming from. Flowers is a Semi-Pelagian in Protestant clothes. He is trying to say that human will did not get corrupted with the Fall. This view was condemned in the Council of Orange in 529 A.D. long after Augustian had died and 1000 years before Calvin.
The Remnant Radio: Brothers, thank you so much for having this kind of format, where we can hear different views on scripture other than our own. I so appreciate the both of you holding these podcasts even though you may even be on the other side of that doctrine. That takes a certain amount of maturity and grace. May the LORD bless you both and your ministry to the whole body of Christ.
So, do you believe that everyone on earth had been evangelized and I had heard the true gospel before the flood? Do you think that everyone that was killed in the flood, had all been enabled two receive salvation and that God‘s grace was leading them to believe on the name of Jesus? Because I am quite positive that Noah and his three sons did not have the ability to evangelize every part of the earth mankind had reached out to. And if that is the case, the God that you and Flowers believe in and that you say would never do something like that, sovereignly chose to pass over many people.
@@treythompson4103 Jesus Christ descended into hades and preached to those people in that time. "Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that he might bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh but [made] alive in [the] spirit. Thus, he also descended and preached to the spirits in prison, to those who in the past had been disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In this [ark], a few (that is eight souls) were saved through water. This is an antitype of baptism, which now saves us. Baptism is not the putting away of the impurity of the flesh but the appeal of a good conscience {in your relationship} toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 3:18-21)
I so appreciate Leighton Flowers as there is hardly any credible non-Calvinist teachers out there that can defend the non-Calvinist position. Flowers does such a good job and also he’s actually evolving in bible knowledge to debate this doctrine.
Most Christians just assume Calvinism is false because the picture of God it presents feels off (protectively guarding a strong sense of God's sovereignty and power at the expense of his goodness). However they don't necessarily feel the need to refute the specific Calvinist arguments as they don't come up that often in many sections of the church.
@@jayman1338 yes they seem pretty strong, but on the other hand I don"r think the average person reading the bible without guidance from.their pastor to give them a Calvinistic set of glasses to read the bible through would ever arrive at the system of Calvinism - God's goodness and man's free will to do wrong or go astray is too clear.
@@gareth2736 well brother I’ve been a Christian since 1994 and a student of the Bible the whole time and I’ve sat under Calvinist teachers many times and what I’ve found with the Calvinistic teaching is it’s just Calvinistic readings poured into the unclear texts that was never originally intended. What I’ve found so far is the Calvinist refuses to interpret the unclear texts by using the clear texts allowing the Bible to interpret the Bible. So having said all that I just feel what you said in regards to a student of the Bible just needs the guidance from a Calvinistic pastor to give them a Calvinistic set of glasses to help them read Calvinism into the text or else they probably will never see it, well maybe think about that statement real carefully friend.
God bless you Leighton for explaining the truth of scripture. God has blessed you with an outstanding intellect memory & gracious manner. You are using it to defend His Word against error, may He bless you mightily!
Romans 12:3 Gifts of Grace [3] For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, 👉each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
God can foreknow absolutely everything that will ultimately come to pass without 'necessitating' God being the 'cause' of predetermining everything He foreknows. God can foreknow Adam and Eve would choose to disobey Him without necessitating God being the CAUSE of their disobedience. James 1:13-15
Awesome job Leighton! And guys at Remnant Radio! I’m going to have to watch this another few times and take notes to keep with me when addressing Calvinistic Soteriology! If you ever want to a non-prominent sister in Christ to discuss the Word of Faith I’d volunteer to be a guest! 🙋♀️ The problem is that too many people who speak against it were either never in it OR address the older teachings. But Word of Faith has morphed and been softened to be able to persist to this day. I was saved in 2002 in a Word of Faith church and remained there(off and on) until 2018. I experienced the transformation from “little gods” and “speaking things into existence” teachings to newer teachings of simply “watching your self-talk” and “abundance to be able to give and spread the gospel”. I can thoroughly explain why even the softened version is in error and is leading believers into temptation, and debunk all these modern Word of Faith teachings with scripture.
Watched quite a few of Leighton's videos and I think that was his best so far. Well done, boys, on drawing him out and moderating well. Subscribed to Remnant as a result.
@@TheRemnantRadio just wondering, do you guys have any vids that are v moderate who can help someone ('a friend') who is theoretically unopposed to the gifts but is also v skeptical of so much of the nonsense, the false claims and exaggerated emotion. The Christian life, worship, evangelism and worship, in Christ, is already very full and the question remains that it doesn't actually seem that when all is stripped down, they'd be missing much.
The gospel itself is a sufficient work of grace. It seems like Calvinism tries to add another “hidden” work of grace on top of the gospel that actually causes the gospel itself to loose it’s power. Sounds like something nearing anti-gospel in some ways. Thank you having this conversation.
Almost Calvinist here!!! Bummer that I missed the chance to ask leighton questions, but if there are any provision it’s here in the comments I’d like to throw out a question. Proverbs 16:33 says that the lot is cast in the lap but it’s every decision is from the Lord. Are we to believe that God determines the casting of a lot and a rolling of the dice and yet does not determine much more important events in history? Also I wanted leighton ti clarify more on the psalm 139. david says that all of his days were ordained before even one of them came to pass. Would a provisionist just say it’s hyperbolic? Would they say that yes he ordained all of David’s days? If so how could he ordain David’s days without also orchestrating the lives of the people he encountered?
All people generally know what is moral. If people are moral then how does that make them completely incapable of responding? God gave people the ability to think. Scripture is loaded with commands.
"First we may call this doctrine(Calvinism) a novelty, seeing that for the first four hundred years after christ there is no mention of it. The first foundations for it were in the writings of Augustine, who, in his warring against Pelagius, let fall some expressions which some have unhappily picked up to the establishment of this error."- Quaker Theologian Robert Barclay
We see that the church crystalizes doctrine in the face of error. There is no mention of "Calvinism" until the 1600's. Prior to it, the errors of Pelagius became dominant in the Roman Catholic system, which is the soil that Flowers is coming from. Flowers is a Semi-Pelagian in Protestant clothes. He is trying to say that human will did not get corrupted with the Fall. This view was condemned in the Council of Orange in 529 A.D. long after Augustian had died and 1000 years before Calvin.
jEW AND GREEK- LOL Then you deny proverbs 16:1 "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord." 16:4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps." Salvation is 100% of God. Man play his part because...GOD!
Jew and Greek-No, you look through it with your man-centered lense while denying the Sovereignty of God and God's sovereign choice. It has nothing to do with the label of Calvinism
@@teemu1381 "Sovereign" doesn't mean "puppet master" or "robot programmer". It means "the ultimate authority". All Christians believe that God is the ultimate authority, but not all Christians pretend that they have any monopoly on the subject. Just Calvinists. The difference in our views is not on whether or not God is the ultimate authority, but the implications of His sovereignty. Does that translate into meticulous control, or does it mean that He rules over His creation to whom He was extended free will? I think the Bible clearly teaches the latter.
Jew and Greek- I didn't say were are robots....But God changes the will of his elect to believe the gospel and truth. You think you came to Christ of your own doing and decision LOL, when Jesus clearly says NO MAN CAN come except the father DRAWS him and further on NO MAN CAN come says unless it is GIVEN. Your Will, as an unregenerated man, is not free as it is in bondage to sin and does NOT seek God (Romans 3:10-12). Dead men cannot come to Christ or do anything apart from God. This is what you will worshippers can't seem to grasp.
after reading 50 comments i have come to a conclusion...it is of the HIGHEST calling to teach God's Word! few have the skill and how anyone can sit under a man under 40 much less 50 is beyond me. all men i see under 40 that teach with confidence embrace their system...they do not own what they say regarding difficult matters as discussed here. There is tremendous psychological empowerment in this for men. If you stay within your system you can rise up...which is why so few men are willing to think outside their system. the more i dig the more complex Christianity becomes. NT Wright believe this, MacArthur believes that, Piper believe this, etc...pick your leader. ONE Bible...many systematic views. So what does God expect from us? This is the internet age...most of life has been people living in small villages with one church. They sat under a pastor and were trying to be obedient. It seems God's grace then must be in working in lives despite a pastor's incomplete knowledge of God's Word. Otherwise, what hope does anyone really have? Now I am referring to Christian churches not per se a Moron church. Get what I am saying here? We need to search the scriptures, but if the most learned cannot agree, what does Joe in church do? What does God expect from us sitting under a pastor?
I sat in many different churches hearing different notions of interpretation, buying hundreds of books. What helped me most was praying and reading the bible over and over, looking up each word nearly in every verse of Scripture. My favorite bible (KJV) is published by AMG, the Complete Word Study NT and OT, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, and his dictionaries for each edition. It takes diligence and study, and the LORD is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, and receive 'the love of the Truth', so never give up!
@@ShepherdMinistrybecause we are more concerned about teaching our doctrines in churches and fighting about them online, rather than telling our neighbors about Jesus.
i want to thank Dr. Flowers for assuring me that the calvinist position is the most biblical one...I guess even one note banjos have a purpose in the kingdom..
Calvinist start with the wrong premises, because they start collecting premises in NT, ignoring the contradictions that those premises have with OT. Thank you for having Dr. Flowers on your podcast
Not only are His attributes described in Psalms, but we can then watch in the OT as history places His attributes on display. God is fully sovereign, and the way that works together with human choice is a deep mystery that we’ll never understand. It is God’s power that make it all possible.
@@PaDutchRunner "God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, “What doest thou?” Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy, chapter 22 “The Sovereignty of God” Properly defining Sovereign is key as it doesn't mean divine meticulous determinism. God can foreknow absolutely everything that will ultimately come to pass without it 'necessitating' God being the CAUSE of predetermining everything God foreknew. Isaiah 46:10. God knows the end to the beginning and isn't affected by the constructs of time like us.
There's also many scriptures Calvinists ignore from the NT, especially the warnings Jesus gave constantly, including the way is narrow that leads to salvation and broad is the path to damnation and many will follow it. Choice! Freewill!
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you John 17: 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Romans 9 :15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Abraham was a sinner. Yet when God spoke to him, he believed God. And it was counted to him for righteousness. He heard the word of faith and believed and acted on what he heard. He was not saved first then believed, he believed first after hearing directly from God THEN it was counted to him for righteousness. Faith came before the Law was introduced. Faith comes from hearing God's Word and acting on it. Righteousness comes through faith, not through the Law. Everyone who believes is considered as children of faithful Abraham. Paul explains this in Galatians and Romans, the sameone whom wrote some of those verses you make mention of. Abraham saw Jesus (before the days of His flesh) and rejoiced, leapt for joy. Abram WAS called of God. Abram heard and took heed to the voice of God. Abram began his walk of faith LONG before the Law ever came into existence. Jesus spoke much about Abraham. He is counted as the father of all those who believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said - You must be born again.... unless you are.... you will not see or enter into the Kingdom of God. How are we born again? By the Holy Spirit's work. We are born again by the Holy Spirit after we believe. Whoever believes (1) on the Son shall (2) have Life. To as many as received Him, to them (those who received Jesus) gave He authority to be called the sons (children) of God. We are begotten, Peter says, not by corruptible seed, but by the Word of God which is alive and remains forever. When the 3000 unsaved souls heard Peter preaching in the house above them, they were stabbed in the heart. The Holy Spirit convicted them of sin, righteousness and judgment. In fear for their unsaved souls, they cried out - What MUST WE DO. Peter says - Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. They had to turn completely away from their sinful ways, to God, submit to water baptism which was a commitment to discipleship to Jesus (see Exodus 14, where Israel was baptized unto Moses, which day God saved them from the hand of Pharaoh; see 1 Cor 10:1-4), just as Israel was discipled (disciplined) by Moses. Cornelius wasn't saved but he prayed and fasted for 3 days into a fourth day. An angel appeared and told him to send for Peter who will tell you WHAT YOU MUST DO. Peter came and preached in that house, they heard and believed and were instantly filled with the Holy Ghost. Then Peter commanded them to be baptised, immersed in the name of the Lord. Peter tells the saints in Jerusalem that God granted repentance also to the Gentiles and the Holy Spirit sealed them. Believing comes after hearing. Being born again - saved comes as a result of believing. Yes God calls.... the call goes out to all mankind. Jesus gave a few parables to explain this. Faith comes by HEARING. Hearing comes by the Word of God. Paul says whoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall (as a result) be saved. But he reasons: how can they call on Him they have not believed? So calling upon follows believing. How shall they believe in Him they have not heard about? Believing follows the hearing. And how shall they hear unless one is sent? Hearing is a result of God sending someone, like Moses to the Israelites in Egypt; likeJesus to earth: like Peter to Cornelius. heard about? Some believe and they are chosen, because God was in the process. It is all contingent on God. It is God's work, but he will not violate the independent volition of man, who was made in the image and likeness of God. Some chose not to believe because they love their sin too much. They hate the Light and refuse to come to the Light lest their deeds are exposed. God is our Salvation. Jesus is our Salvation. The Lord is my Light and my Salvation, whom then shall I fear?
When Calvinists use John 6:44 as a prooftext for T.U.and I of T.U.L.I.P. .... Let's look at John 12:32 and Matthew 22:1-14. When we examine the passage in John 12 it clearly doesn't align with the Calvinist interpretation of John 6:44 or the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14 so the John 6:44 prooftext is shown to not be proper exegesis. John 12:32 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Matthew 22:1-14 1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
@@jasonfrost6595 Matthew 5:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (the house of Spiritual Israel) the gentile woman's God given faith proved she was one of His children, one of the Spiritual Israel of God. Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
John 6:44 was addressed. If the word "draws" means what you say it mean then the Dr. Very thoroughly answered it. The Bible also says in John that the exact SAME word "draw" is used to state He draws everyone. That should completely resolve the first verse, do you agree
@@donstevensii7293 He will draw "all" His people, His sheep. He said that He came to save His people from their sins. He doesn't save the goats, the chaff, the children of the devil. He tells them He never knew them. He called the Pharisees children of the devil. Spurgeon said ..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts --some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
Praise God Kristine! He is truly SO merciful. Man-made philosophy puts you in a box full of dissonance but the true, unfiltered Gospel will set you free! God IS love!!
Pat: You are probably trolling me but, on the small chance you aren't, Calvinism teaches Devine, meticulous determinism which logically leads to God electing some while damning a larger number to hell BEFORE they were even born. This deterministic view wasn't taught by ANY Christian until Augustine, in his later years as he conflated his former Manichean Gnosticism philosophy with Christianity so as to win an argument with his contemporary, Pelagius. This also logically leads to God being the author of all sin. Calvinist try to mask this by teaching philosophical compatibilism but, that's just kicking the can down the road a little further. When I understood what Reformed Theologians were actually teaching, I wanted nothing to do with this God. I almost just walked away like many have done. Again, if by chance your question isn't rhetorical, study even just the U in "TULIP" for a specific teaching, then study The Gospel. The cognitive dissonance caused by these two diametrically opposed teachings is enough to ruin any honest, open minded, logical thinker.
My "paranoia" comes from years of experience of dealing with Calvinist who "be hatin". I don't know you but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and, had you responded politely, I would've responded as many times as necessary to make sure you understood where I'm coming from. I do troll trolls but, again, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Glad your first response was sincere.
Now you're getting honest! Thanks for proving me correct. You don't have to agree with me but don't pretend you don't realize why I would have "animosity" toward the PHILOSOPY(it is not a doctrine) of a puppet master God arbitrarily damning his creatures for his glory. I noticed you changed the word I used, "determination" to "providence". NOT the same thing. Troll. Then you included "foreordination", a word you, no doubt, do not properly understand. "What about your hatred" you say. You went all ad hominem instead of attempting to refute what I stated. Canned, troll responses.. Like the left today, you will accuse me of a hate crime next I guess...Typical. I knew I was right about you. I will not read your comments after this. Go troll someone who has the time and no brain...
My response to "it is impossible for someone to come to Christ unless the Father draws him" John 12:32 - And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
@@ShepherdMinistry John 12:30-32 NIV - Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” Am I misunderstanding what your saying? Because it seems to me that Jesus said it. You may be referring to something else that I am unaware of though.
@@popoffs5273 If Jesus draws all men to himself, do you believe that means every single person in the world? We have to keep in mind Jesus said God draws them yo Him and He will raise them up on the last day. Meaning those that come to Jesus by God are saved. John 6:44 [44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
THANK YOU for this!! It is SSOOO helpful! I never really learned what calvinism is or meant before. I grew up all Pentecostal and in the last ten years ran around Word of Faith. Both are very free-will/Armenian, although neither talked about it nor explained it. The problem is, Word of Faith adds "jurisdiction" to "free-will." (In other words, God's is waiting for man to 'take authority' and enact His plans (heaven to earth), which extremely denegrades the Sovereignty of God. Many other errors in Word of Faith, but this is a foundational one and points back to the extremes of Armenianism that can lead to error; while I think there are extreme errors of Calvinism also, I think moderate stances on both are fully within orthodoxy.) Having been delivered from WoF, there is a lot of pressure to go Calvinist, but I just couldn't support their understanding of predestination. I might still study more, but this is such an excellent and studied platform to go from and helps me know what/when/where to look at. Thanks so much.
Just go back to the apostles doctrine, which was the doctrine of Jesus Christ. In Jesus Christ is the fulness of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. It is neither Calvin nor Arminius we should be seeking, nor yet Luther, nor Augustine, nor yet any other mere man or their words. Jesus said - Follow Me. Period. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism can help us. Both guys are dead. Their writings are not Scripture nor even close to Scripture. It is the Word of God we must be feasting on. Daily. Weekly. Yearly. There the Holy Spirit will teach us of Jesus. There we will see the power of God evidenced in the lives of individuals and nations. Hebrews 4:12 says the Word of God is ALIVE, VIBRANT, ACTIVE, it can renew our minds, change our behaviour to become conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Jesus was neither Calvinist or Arminianist. We do not need to use those men, nor should we, as demarcation lines in our experience. Praise God for any good thing they did, but much mischief has resulted from their efforts. Jesus said, those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (as specified by God) shall be filled. Let us seek the fulness of the blessing of Christ. Let us go on to perfection. Let us build up ourselves in our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost - Jude.
The Gospel is THE POWER OF GOD unto salvation ... Rom 1:16 The Word of God is ALIVE AND POWERFUL... Heb 4:12 The GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD ... Acts 20:24 You are right Leighton. The gosple is more than the fact that Jesus Christ , died was buried and rose again. That is the climax, the fulfillment.
Having attended Willow Creek for several years, and growing up in western Michigan, I think Hybels is Calvinist, except having adopted believer baptism for practical reasons.
@@roystutzer4609 they had it and it is deminished/removed so that they may know what the darkness is and be provoked to envy/repentance that they may seek to do good.
Keith Sturgill, I would like to respond to your comments but for some reason I cannot see your entire responses. This comment section has become so convoluted that I can't even find the area in which we were discussing. Sorry. Perhaps we can pick this up at another time.
Romans 12:3 Gifts of Grace [3] For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, 👉each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
I think Christians on both sides of this debate have spent so much time arguing over the things we ultimately can’t answer that we’ve forgotten there’s a real enemy out there who hates God, hates the gospel, and hates Christians. Many folks on these forums are still so consumed with this to the point of an unhealthy walk. Can y’all admit that there are questions you can’t answer and unify in Christ?
These questions can be answered! The Calvinist side is telling people God hasn’t provided salvation for all but the other is saying He has! I think it’s a worthy topic of discussion! And I by no means think it means we’ve forgotten the enemy!
@@lauren8407 matthew is correct in his opinion. a quick look through large libraries of content creators will show the amount of material that is used to evaluate and debate difference of Christian doctrine. there are even channels who only share content on tearing apart other views. there is a large amount of content creators who do everything except preach the gospel.
That was my attitude for 20 years! I was neutral on this topic until I found good Biblical arguments for Provisionism in the Calvinistic proof texts. Why do I think it's important? Because logically, Calvinism makes no sense, and makes God look like someone who hates most people and the author of evil! I have concluded the Bible doesn't teach these things!
Where this debate comes down to how you define Grace. Both sides say we are saved by grace but grace means different things. Remnant needs to interview John Barclay on his book Paul and the power of grace. Many theologians say his earlier book "Paul and the gift" is the most significant theological work in the last 50 years.
Just curious why Leighton lets his admins on Soteriology " 101 " remove Born Again believers including myself , that do not find " Reformers " as Spiritually born again Believers , as they do fully deny :( John 3:16 , and most of all other foundational Biblical text regarding God as non partial and a God of Love ? Again , if these " Rome Reformers " are as you straight out imply > are indeed your " brothers in Christ " , then why spend all your waking hours , mainly challenging their obviously " man added theological non prophet nonsense " ?
Amen. Yes sir. The gospel is an eternal gospel for all ages. Past, present, and future. And Christ is the fulfilment of the gospel. Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth-to every nation, tribe, language and people.
Read that in context. It's speaking of spiritual gifts. Another verse which speaks of something similar is 1st Corinthians 12:8-10 which says "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" This shows a similar idea of different measures of faith among believers. That is different from a saving faith in Christ.
@@timothyschreiber8338 you’re complicating it too much because it doesn’t fit your reason. You’re gonna have to trust what scripture clearly points out. Faith comes from God alone. Ephesians 2 also explains this.
Deuteronomy 30. I give you a choice of life or death. Please choose life. God didn't say you will choose life because I choose you. Book of Jeremiah is almost all God asking Israel to repent or be judged and they CHOSE to say no for years. It never once said God ordained them to rebel against their will. God grieved over the evil heart of man. Why would he if he preordained them to be that way? He wouldnt. Thanks for the program guys!
Rico Bonifacio, It is not necessary that every passage that presents a sinner's responsibility to repent and choose life should explain how those who apart from divine grace have, by sinful nature, no inclination to do so, ever come to repentance. One must take the Scriptures as a whole to find such answers. You asked, " Why would he if he preordained them to be that way? He wouldnt." Your assumption seems to be that God is the proximate cause of all that he has ordained. God's electing decree causes no one's condemnation. God grieves over human sinfulness because His nature is Holy. He cannot but desire the sinner's repentance because of his nature. Unless you believe God's knowledge of future events was, contingent on human decision, and therefore uncertain and incomplete, you must acknowledge that he determined by the very act of bringing the universe into existence that all He knew for certain was to occur was certain to occur. It is God's decision that what he knew perfectly would occur would be certain to occur for His eternal glory and for the eternal and spiritual good of His people. He determined that all that would not suit that end was to be excluded from His universe. He has not determined what will occur because he foresaw it, but knows it ahead of time but because he has determined beforehand that it will occur for the accomplishment of his eternal purpose.
@@johncyreltabora4939 Ephesians 1:4 (HCSB) For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. Before the foundation of the world, God chose those who would be found in Him for a purpose: to be holy and blameless in His sight. The verse does not say: For He chose us TO BE in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.
@@theidolbabblerthedailydose33 Thats the verse? The text says He chose us to be holy and blameless ie saved. I think that’s a really bad example to try to disprove calvinism my brother.
Really good podcast... I'm still getting through it. However Dr flowers in my opinion dropped the ball when he d chose not to read acts 4:27 through 28. That one really seems to clearly support the reform position of which I am currently struggling with still. To send that he discounted that pastor's question and it would have been more impactful had he read the scripture and talked through it. Otherwise very intelligent and respectful conversation so far
Everything God WILLS, God DESIRES.....but all God desires, He does not will. Will is an action, desire is a want, a feeling. Clalvinist view will and desire as the same.
Poor guy. Pray for him. The very expression “the Grace of God” implies and denotes that the sinner’s condition is desperate to the last degree, and that God may justly leave him to perish; yea, it is a wonder of wonders that he is not already in hell. Grace is a divine provision for those who are so depraved they cannot change their own nature, so averse from God they will not turn to Him, so blind they can neither see their malady nor the remedy, so dead spiritually that God must bring them out of their graves on to resurrection ground if ever they are to walk in newness of life. Grace is the sinner’s last and only hope; if he is not saved by grace, he will never be saved at all. Grace levels all distinctions, and regards the most zealous religionist on the same plane as the most profligate, the chaste virgin as the foul prostitute. Therefore God is perfectly free to save the chiefest of sinners and bestow His mercy on the vilest of the vile. “I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed!” [Mal. 3:6] A W Pink
If calvinism view on determination is true, the old and new testament contradict each other. And God is schizophrenic? God grieved over but ordained their rebellion. Jesus cried over Israel riding into the city but only choses a predestined few? So that's why I shun calvinisms predetermined outcome theory.
Rico, If God were the proximate cause of all that he has ordained, there might be some conflict between His ordination of all things and His revealed desires that flow from his holy character. It is not that God is schizophrenic at all but that he chooses according to his highest inclination. For those who deny God's decree, His highest inclination is toward the preservation of human free will. He would rather that billions of sinners perish than to intervene and grant them a heart-felt desire to love and please him. Biblically, His highest inclination is to manifest His own glory. There is no conflict between God's sovereign decree and the free decisions of sinners.
I think you’re just misinterpreting calvinists. Calvinists still believe that humans have a will and make choices, but their choices are limited by God’s sovereign decree of what He allows them to do. People still make the choice to sin if God allows them to. If i want to steal an orange then I might plan to steal the orange. If God allows me to steal the orange then I steal the orange. If God doesn’t allow me to steal the orange then i don’t steal the orange. God often intervenes and doesn’t allow people to do certain things. Just like how Pharaoh seemingly wouldve repented and let the Jews go after the first few plagues, God further hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that he would not let the Jews go. Why? To display His power to the whole world. To display His grace, mercy and blessing to His people while displaying His vengeance against the wicked. You have no problem with God intervening in this scenario even though He is seemingly causing Pharaoh to not let the Jews go. What about God’s sovereign election of Israel? He chose Israel to receive the prophets, the promises, the covenants and the oracles while not choosing any other nation. You have no problem with this even though it likely means that the majority of gentiles (before Christ’s atonement) probably died in their sin. Why? What about God’s election of Noah and his family? What about God’s election of Jacob? What about God’s election of Abraham?
@ogloc6308 would you say that the reprobate can only make bad choices? If so, that's still not free will? That's locking someone in a prison cell and then saying they can go wherever they want in the prison at anytime? They are not free to anything but the prison cell.
Another point in John 10 to refute the Calvinist viewpoint is in verses 37 & 38 where Jesus seems to be trying to reason with them through scripture why they ought to believe He is who He says He is. Why would he do that if he knew they were not elected. Why would he continue to appeal to them and ask them to believe if election were true.
I have some wonderful Pressy friends who genuinely love Jesus Christ. The real issue is do we place the Word of God above all other words, even "chatacisms"? Do we read the Word of God through denominational glasses, or do we read it as a man dying of thirst drinks a glass of cool refreshing water? Do we seek Jesus in the pages of the Bible, or are we seeking to defend a denominational position.
"They cannot reply positively to God's call, because of the fall"....."I just push back on that, where does it say that?"..."It says enables them to respond".....Wait what?!? Doesn't the fact that we need to be "enabled" by definition mean we are unable, or cannot, until we are enabled?? No idea how this can be confusing to him when he clearly just proves the point
Basically, "Calvinism" requires God to DIRECTLY empower a Man through an infusion of a DESIRE for Him, BEFORE the Man can actually have faith in God. In other words, a Man can be in the darkest fringes of the Earth and if God, by His Sovereign will, "empowers" the Man then he will SEEK and FIND God, and WILL come to Salvation, "no holds barred". The Bible, however, paints a very different picture. The Bible affirms that a Man CANNOT go to Jesus, and ultimately to God, unless God draws him through His Word. The method used by God to "draw" Men is not by a DIRECT infusion of faith, rather it is by REVELATION of Himself through His Word, through PREACHING of the Word, i.e. the Gospel Message. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? If He does not REVEAL Himself to Man, through a Gospel REVELATION, then Man CANNOT know Him, so Man is dependent on God REVEALING Himself to Man for him to come to Salvation. Man MUST be given LIGHT, i.e. God MUST reveal Himself, for Man to be ENABLED to either "receive" the Light or "refuse" the Light. No-one can either choose or reject that which has not been offered. John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. The "Calvinists" have gotten themselves into the old "cart before the horse" conundrum. In essence, "Calvinists" have CHOSEN the "egg" first before the "chicken" and have asserted that God "nursed" the "chick" to full fruition into a "chicken". It SOUNDS Nice and Sovereignty, God being entirely in control, but it is basically CONTRARY to how the Scriptures portray God's Sovereignty. From the beginning God REVEALED Himself by His Word to Man and Man was made responsible for the decisions he made BASED on what God had VERBALLY REVEALED about Himself. There is and has ALWAYS been ONLY one way of Salvation and that has been: Rom 10:17 So then FAITH COMES by HEARING, and HEARING by the WORD of God. Men CANNOT be "drawn" to God nor to Jesus UNLESS someone, a Preacher, preaches the Gospel for THEM to "hear" and believe or "hear" and NOT believe. John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that HEARETH my WORD, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This ain't "rocket science".
@@justchilling704 - Basically, "Calvinism" is just "Augustinianism" which is just plain'o Pagan Greco Roman Catholicism which denies the "saving" power of the "Gospel of Christ" and the "hearing of faith" which leads to Salvation "in Christ".
Thank u for your work just want to add a simple solution in my mind ..Romans says they are without excuse..that tells me everyone has a chance but they are simply not willing but scripture is clear God is willing..
To add to the question of Pharoa...remember Isaiah 46:10 says God can tell the end from the beginning, so God told Moses the end of Pharoa before it began as God knew he would harden his heart and then God will give him over as God knows the future. God did not begin the hardening, Pharoa's pride did, God merely said (OWN VERY LOOSE TRANSLATION)...If you don't want My will to be done, have your will be done.
Actually, if you read the whole Bible, you'll note 2 things: 1. No prophet or apostle ever says "God hardened AFTER Pharaoh hardened". They always/only say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and they leave it there. 2. They probably did not skip Ps 105:25 [+]And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes. He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants. (Ps 105:24-25) In other words, God moved first to harden all of Egypt so they would abuse the Israelites. BTW, if you count every time Pharaoh's hart is mentioned in Exod 1-14, you'll see a very peculiar pattern. The condition of Pharaoh's heart is mentioned exactly 20 times: 10x God hardened 5x Unstated who hardened his heart 3x Pharaoh hardened 2x Pharaoh softened (repented) Bear in mind that God is not required to harden someone's heart just because they spite Him. He didn't harden S/Paul's heart: He sent him a vision and got him saved. He could have done the same for Pharaoh. And Sodom and Gomorrah (See Matt 11:20-25) God deliberately chose to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let His people go so that God could strike him down. That's what the Bible repeats. We should repeat it too. Our takeway needs to be the same as the prophets and apostles: "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". And leave it there. Just like they did.
@@apilkey Before Moses ever encounters Pharaoh, The LORD tells him in advance, '...but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go!' (Ex.4:21) Why don't you read the entire bible a few times, so you don't keep thinking you are correct! You must have meant Ex.5:2, not Gen.5:2... hmmm
Michael Stanley Yes I meant Exodus 5:2 thanks for the correction. And thanks for the advice on reading the Bible a few times. I have and I will continue to do so I hope you take your advice as well. Now let’s breakdown and expose your assumptions surrounding pharaoh: Let’s take a look at God’s FIRST MENTION of Pharaoh. God had FOREKNOWLEDGE that Pharoah wouldn’t let them go unless He stretched forth His hand. He didn’t meticulously hard determine that he wouldn’t before the foundation of the world. This passage says nothing of the sort. God knew he wouldn’t because he was not ALREADY following after the Lord. FREEWILL FIRST THEN GOD’S MIGHTY HAND. Sequence of events was NOT God predestining Pharoah’s heart to be hardened FIRST. We need to look at the sequence of events: EXODUS 3:19 19 AND I AM SURE THAT THE KING OF EGYPT WILL NOT LET YOU GO, NO, NOT BY A MIGHTY HAND. 20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and AFTER THAT HE WILL LET YOU GO. EXODUS 4:21 21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: BUT I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go. This passage is simply God saying what He will do and makes no mention of anything being predetermined. God knew Pharaoh would freely reject Him and He knew He would then AFTERWARDS harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Mr. Flowers, what happened to the message of Reconciliation that we are supposed to take to the world? What happened to reconciling our minds to the fact that the Father imputed all our sin to Christ so that those who believe the accomplished act of forgiveness receive the imputed righteousness of Christ to forever stand justified before the Father. I listen to McArthur, James White, etc. and it’s as they have never heard of this or dismiss it. What say you?
I like have Flowers threw in the accusation of "philosophical assertions,'" yet constantly was referring to free will, which is more of a philosophical concept than a biblical one. But I don't expect Leighton to understand that, since it's impossible for him to understand his own inconcistencies.
"free will = the ability to choose from available options" Deuteronomy 30:19 NIV [19] This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now *CHOOSE* life, so that you and your children may live Here's a verse Calvinists sure love to quote don't they??
I love the discussions I will continue to listen. But I think that as humans we tend to make things too complicated. si think is simple, God created everything he established the plan of redemption perfect as it is, it has two outcomes for those who receive the free gift of salvation, eternal salvation, those who reject eternal damnation.
@Sir Isaac Newton I disagree with Leighton on his objection towards reformed theology, I believe God is sovereign over everything and we can not choose God on your own accord. I believe Jesus himself and the apostle spoke about this, there is a mystery about God being sovereign and humans being fully responsible it might sound like im contradicting but our minds can grasp what God does he's perfect
@Sir Isaac Newton preaching the gospel is simple in that God loves you and he Sent his son to die for your sins. The ones that end up saved will hear the message and they will have eternal life. We don't know who the elect are so we preach to everyone
@Sir Isaac Newton I know of many that go to homeless shelters. I'm far from many that do it but I volunteer and give my time, that's what Christians suppose to do
@Sir Isaac Newton jesus never said I'm God worship me but we do because he said it in different ways, he is God. The holy spirit that guided the apostle wrote these things
If a man cannot chose God, and His ways, then why did God make an appeal to Cain to do what was right. In Gen. 4:6 The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 IF YOU DO WELL, will you not be accepted? And if YOU DO NOT WELL, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” GOD did not think that Cain could not in his spiritually dead condition - CHOOSE to do well. TOTAL DEPRAVITY does not mean TOTAL INABILITY. Evidently according to this verse God did not hold the doctrine of INABILITY of the Calvinist.
So Cain could have done other than what he did? You don’t see how this contradicts the whole point? Cain was predestined to do exactly what he did and predestined for his inevitable judgement. Otherwise God would’ve intervened. Since God allowed the actions of Cain, he determined it, becomes he is the Creator and knew what was going to come to pass. You can’t escape this. Free will doesn’t exist. Get over it.
@@jtslev read the text: Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4:7 IF YOU DO WELL, shalt thou not be accepted? and IF YOU DO NOT WELL, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
@@garyscalf2225 Look, we all choose based on the condition of our heart. We don’t know our heart any more than we know the future. Our hearts act of their own accord; by their own nature, which is corrupt, and our conscience, plus God’s Word tells us to obey God’s law and turn from our fallen desires to appeal to the flesh. On top of all this, God has created the universe with a specific purpose in mind. Thus, it must logically follow that God has determined everything for it’s purpose. That purpose is to glorify Himself through His creation, and put on display His attributes and character. Throughout this work that God is doing, we who believe have the unfathomable blessing to be determined to be recipients of God’s eternal love, mercy, and grace. We recognize this and understand that we owe everything to God because without His designing every aspect of our being, we would have no power to do anything or be anything. We are wholly reliant on God for our body mind and soul, which includes our thoughts and choices. Therefore, autonomous free will is a myth, and nothing more than a figment of your fallen imagination. If your will is in line with God, you have no freedom. Freedom implies deviation from God’s will, which is sin. You boast in having free will? You’re really boasting in your ability to reject God’s will, but even that was ordained. This is logically inescapable. You must first abandon logic because you cannot explain where an autonomous free will comes from if not created by God, and if God created your will, you aren’t “free” in the grand scheme of things. That’s ok though, because God is allowed to create however He pleases, and His justice is still valid because He’s only giving those who reject Him what they ultimately want; independence at the price of punishment. No one goes to hell who didn’t agree to make that sacrifice.
@@jtslev Therefore, autonomous free will is a myth, and nothing more than a figment of your fallen imagination. Brother, you may think it is a myth. The greatest attribute that God has is the ability to choose. Cod gave both angels and men the ability to choose. Michael and Gabriel who kept their first estate have to this day the ability to choose God whereas Lucifer and his angels departed from the faith. God gave Adam and Eve a choice of what tree to eat and not to eat from. Men and Angels were given the ability to choose or not to choose and it's our ability to be able to choose God that actually glorifies God. I see the ability to choose as a good thing given by God and you see it as a negative thing. Thank you for your comment. blessings
The "choosing,"may or may not be a blessing. The choosing of the Jews was a responsibility God placed on the Jews. Leighton's daughter bringing the gifts to her siblings is a responsibility Leighton assigned her.
@@danielletracyann For knowing something is not foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is passively having knowledge of future events. But in Romans 8 when it says those He foreknew it means knowing someone. The golden chain of redemption found in Romans 8 speaks of active verbs such as foreknew, predestine, call, justify and glorify. God undertakes these actions. Foreknew is an acting verb always referring to persons never actions in history. That’s the difference.
Dr Flowers is the answer to the prayers of those who couldn't find Calvinism in the Bible or Arminianism. PROVISIONISM is the only biblical view that makes sense according to the Bible alone. Popularity or marketing by Calvinism does not make it correct or sound doctrine. The more I know Calvinists the more I see the dangers of such terrible misrepresentation of God to the point many now are trying to convert people to Calvinism instead of Messiah Himself. That's extremely dangerous and I see the anger and bitterness in them when you reject their theology. That's very telling.
Only took 2,000 years for the only correct view. 😂 give me a break. To your point about conversion though, no one should convert anyone to Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Provisionism, etc. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.
Typical of Leighton Flowers: The question (37:41): “You talked about God ordaining the end but not necessarily the means - you used the chess analogy. The original question was in the context of Herod and the cross. If God did not predestine that Herod and Pilot and others would crucify Jesus, what is your interpretation of Acts 4:27-28” "Want me to pull that one up?" Said the moderator. Leighton: “No...” Typical Leighton getting uneasy whenever the Bible is referenced Read Acts 4:27-28. Then listen to his answer: ( 38:10)
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Thank you for having Dr. Flowers on your podcast. I think he is far more brilliant than he portrays himself. It baffles me that he is not more well-known and is discouraging to witness a lot of the backlash he gets. It’s also refreshing to see a show that has all my favorite scholars and theologians all on the same podcast. Including Brown, Keener, Winger, and Storms.
Thank you for all that you do and the topics you aren’t afraid to cover. We need more programs like this.
Micah Rydmark thanks Micah. We are really trying. God keeps opening doors to these interviews, we are so thankful to learn from these theologians. Idk why they keep saying “yes” lol.
I've listened to Dr. Flowers quite a bit and compared to some other quote unquote scholars he is muxh easier to gleen from because he doesn't have that arrogant condescending tone that many with his credentials display. I also happen to vehemently agree the points he makes, he assisted my exodus from Calvinist leanings
@@xwingvalet5267 100% agree!
He wastes so much time and energy defeating straw men. It’s sad, really.
@@PaDutchRunner do you have an example of this?
I thank God for Dr. Flowers. I was a Calvinist for many years, but there was so many nagging questions. His humility and love in how he communicates is genuinely how I was able to listen to his teachings when I disagreed with him, and was able to work those questions.
Praise God, and God Bless, Brother.
Same here
We see that the church crystalizes doctrine in the face of error. There is no mention of "Calvinism" until the 1600's. Prior to it, the errors of Pelagius became dominant in the Roman Catholic system, which is the soil that Flowers is coming from. Flowers is a Semi-Pelagian in Protestant clothes. He is trying to say that human will did not get corrupted with the Fall. This view was condemned in the Council of Orange in 529 A.D. long after Augustian had died and 1000 years before Calvin.
God has a sense of humor!! He names Leighton FLOWERS and then DIVINELY DETERMINED Leighton to DESTROY the tulip 😎
@@danielpia7711 they will answer to God for being so proud to exalt their own will
Lol!!! So true!
Brethren, I thought that this was an inhouse debate. I thought that this was an issue that we can debate,discuss and yet not divide over. You act as if the free willers are out of the pale of orthodoxy and not even regenerate.
@@edwardwicks304 We rightly pointed out that everyone will be accountable to God. Even a believer will answer to God, they just won’t receive wrath in the way a non believer will. Have you read any of the other comments calling Calvinism heresy and demonic? Maybe those are ppl that need to be addressed
@Sir Isaac Newton please read & study 2 Corinthians 5:10. I already made clear that this judgement is not God’s wrath, but to think you won’t answer to God for your continuous sinful actions is very arrogant.
Dr. Leighton Flowers, your long winded answers are a fresh breeze from glory. May God bless you three for such a wonderful discourse.
Interesting contrast, "long-winded answers" yet "a fresh breeze." The two are opposites.
So terribly long winded…
@@timcarr6401
It does seem to be an opposites - contradictory statement; it all depends how patient and hungry one is.
When it is a hot day, long cool breezes are delightful.
Paul would preach well into the night, so that a young fellow fell to the ground in sleep, Paul went to pray for him. He revived and the meeting continued to daybreak. Paul would have been called a long winded preacher. James on the other hand judging by his letter was very brief and pithy. Each was necessary. One wasn't better than the other.
@@pinknoise365 The term long-winded has always had the meaning denotatively and connotatively as a negative thing.
@@pinknoise365 better than the typical Calvinist response of “I just don’t have an answer for this one! We can’t understand everything about God. Next question?”
This southern Baptist preacher can preach the gospel. Love 💘 his ministry
I know most Baptist preachers preach OSAS.
I praise God for using Mr.Leighton to present and defend the truth .God bless you Sir🙏
We see that the church crystalizes doctrine in the face of error. There is no mention of "Calvinism" until the 1600's. Prior to it, the errors of Pelagius became dominant in the Roman Catholic system, which is the soil that Flowers is coming from. Flowers is a Semi-Pelagian in Protestant clothes. He is trying to say that human will did not get corrupted with the Fall. This view was condemned in the Council of Orange in 529 A.D. long after Augustian had died and 1000 years before Calvin.
A masterclass by Mr. Flowers. Praise be to God in Jesus Christ
This dude is awesome. Very clear
The Remnant Radio: Brothers, thank you so much for having this kind of format, where we can hear different views on scripture other than our own. I so appreciate the both of you holding these podcasts even though you may even be on the other side of that doctrine. That takes a certain amount of maturity and grace. May the LORD bless you both and your ministry to the whole body of Christ.
Gary Scalf thank you Gary.
So, do you believe that everyone on earth had been evangelized and I had heard the true gospel before the flood? Do you think that everyone that was killed in the flood, had all been enabled two receive salvation and that God‘s grace was leading them to believe on the name of Jesus? Because I am quite positive that Noah and his three sons did not have the ability to evangelize every part of the earth mankind had reached out to. And if that is the case, the God that you and Flowers believe in and that you say would never do something like that, sovereignly chose to pass over many people.
@@treythompson4103 Jesus Christ descended into hades and preached to those people in that time.
"Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that he might bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh but [made] alive in [the] spirit. Thus, he also descended and preached to the spirits in prison, to those who in the past had been disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In this [ark], a few (that is eight souls) were saved through water. This is an antitype of baptism, which now saves us. Baptism is not the putting away of the impurity of the flesh but the appeal of a good conscience {in your relationship} toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 3:18-21)
I so appreciate Leighton Flowers as there is hardly any credible non-Calvinist teachers out there that can defend the non-Calvinist position.
Flowers does such a good job and also he’s actually evolving in bible knowledge to debate this doctrine.
It’s funny bc IMO found his channel by literally searching “why Calvinism is wrong”.
Most Christians just assume Calvinism is false because the picture of God it presents feels off (protectively guarding a strong sense of God's sovereignty and power at the expense of his goodness). However they don't necessarily feel the need to refute the specific Calvinist arguments as they don't come up that often in many sections of the church.
@@gareth2736 Well let me ask you something, have you considered any of Leighton Flowers arguments against Calvinism?
@@jayman1338 yes they seem pretty strong, but on the other hand I don"r think the average person reading the bible without guidance from.their pastor to give them a Calvinistic set of glasses to read the bible through would ever arrive at the system of Calvinism - God's goodness and man's free will to do wrong or go astray is too clear.
@@gareth2736 well brother I’ve been a Christian since 1994 and a student of the Bible the whole time and I’ve sat under Calvinist teachers many times and what I’ve found with the Calvinistic teaching is it’s just Calvinistic readings poured into the unclear texts that was never originally intended. What I’ve found so far is the Calvinist refuses to interpret the unclear texts by using the clear texts allowing the Bible to interpret the Bible.
So having said all that I just feel what you said in regards to a student of the Bible just needs the guidance from a Calvinistic pastor to give them a Calvinistic set of glasses to help them read Calvinism into the text or else they probably will never see it, well maybe think about that statement real carefully friend.
God bless you Leighton for explaining the truth of scripture. God has blessed you with an outstanding intellect memory & gracious manner. You are using it to defend His Word against error, may He bless you mightily!
I LOVE these interviews with Dr. Flowers!
I love them too but seeing one guy wear a goose island beer shirt and see the x men comics behind him?! Unbelievable
Great job on this broadcast guys! Flowers is a general I greatly admire and respect regarding soteriological issues. Keep it up!
Tito Santiago thanks Tito.
Dr. Leighton Flowers is a sent preacher i am convinced of it, God bless him!
Romans 12:3
Gifts of Grace
[3] For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, 👉each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
I thank Dr. Flowers because of his allegory, calvinist storeology makes more sense.
Came here because of Leighton, and I really enjoyed the programme. Subscribed, as you have all my favourite people coming on soon. Thanks
Thank you Dr. Flowers!
God can foreknow absolutely everything that will ultimately come to pass without 'necessitating' God being the 'cause' of predetermining everything He foreknows. God can foreknow Adam and Eve would choose to disobey Him without necessitating God being the CAUSE of their disobedience. James 1:13-15
God has given Flowers the freedom to reject divine determinism, but not the freedom to receive the truth. This is granted by God.
so good. thanks for inviting him on guys.
Flowers clarity is just getting better and better.
Awesome job Leighton! And guys at Remnant Radio! I’m going to have to watch this another few times and take notes to keep with me when addressing Calvinistic Soteriology!
If you ever want to a non-prominent sister in Christ to discuss the Word of Faith I’d volunteer to be a guest! 🙋♀️
The problem is that too many people who speak against it were either never in it OR address the older teachings. But Word of Faith has morphed and been softened to be able to persist to this day.
I was saved in 2002 in a Word of Faith church and remained there(off and on) until 2018. I experienced the transformation from “little gods” and “speaking things into existence” teachings to newer teachings of simply “watching your self-talk” and “abundance to be able to give and spread the gospel”.
I can thoroughly explain why even the softened version is in error and is leading believers into temptation, and debunk all these modern Word of Faith teachings with scripture.
Watched quite a few of Leighton's videos and I think that was his best so far. Well done, boys, on drawing him out and moderating well. Subscribed to Remnant as a result.
Thank you Matt
@@TheRemnantRadio just wondering, do you guys have any vids that are v moderate who can help someone ('a friend') who is theoretically unopposed to the gifts but is also v skeptical of so much of the nonsense, the false claims and exaggerated emotion. The Christian life, worship, evangelism and worship, in Christ, is already very full and the question remains that it doesn't actually seem that when all is stripped down, they'd be missing much.
The gospel itself is a sufficient work of grace. It seems like Calvinism tries to add another “hidden” work of grace on top of the gospel that actually causes the gospel itself to loose it’s power. Sounds like something nearing anti-gospel in some ways.
Thank you having this conversation.
Almost Calvinist here!!!
Bummer that I missed the chance to ask leighton questions, but if there are any provision it’s here in the comments I’d like to throw out a question. Proverbs 16:33 says that the lot is cast in the lap but it’s every decision is from the Lord. Are we to believe that God determines the casting of a lot and a rolling of the dice and yet does not determine much more important events in history? Also I wanted leighton ti clarify more on the psalm 139. david says that all of his days were ordained before even one of them came to pass. Would a provisionist just say it’s hyperbolic? Would they say that yes he ordained all of David’s days? If so how could he ordain David’s days without also orchestrating the lives of the people he encountered?
All people generally know what is moral. If people are moral then how does that make them completely incapable of responding? God gave people the ability to think. Scripture is loaded with commands.
i love the honor here between you guys
"First we may call this doctrine(Calvinism) a novelty, seeing that for the first four hundred years after christ there is no mention of it. The first foundations for it were in the writings of Augustine, who, in his warring against Pelagius, let fall some expressions which some have unhappily picked up to the establishment of this error."- Quaker Theologian Robert Barclay
We see that the church crystalizes doctrine in the face of error. There is no mention of "Calvinism" until the 1600's. Prior to it, the errors of Pelagius became dominant in the Roman Catholic system, which is the soil that Flowers is coming from. Flowers is a Semi-Pelagian in Protestant clothes. He is trying to say that human will did not get corrupted with the Fall. This view was condemned in the Council of Orange in 529 A.D. long after Augustian had died and 1000 years before Calvin.
Such a good conversation! Great responses from 💐
That chess analogy is perfect. God is so incredible He can accomplish His divine purposes AND extend libertarian free will to man at the same time.
jEW AND GREEK- LOL Then you deny proverbs 16:1 "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord."
16:4 "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."
Salvation is 100% of God. Man play his part because...GOD!
@@teemu1381 no I don't deny any Scripture. I just don't look at it through a calvinist lens.
Jew and Greek-No, you look through it with your man-centered lense while denying the Sovereignty of God and God's sovereign choice. It has nothing to do with the label of Calvinism
@@teemu1381 "Sovereign" doesn't mean "puppet master" or "robot programmer". It means "the ultimate authority". All Christians believe that God is the ultimate authority, but not all Christians pretend that they have any monopoly on the subject. Just Calvinists. The difference in our views is not on whether or not God is the ultimate authority, but the implications of His sovereignty. Does that translate into meticulous control, or does it mean that He rules over His creation to whom He was extended free will? I think the Bible clearly teaches the latter.
Jew and Greek- I didn't say were are robots....But God changes the will of his elect to believe the gospel and truth. You think you came to Christ of your own doing and decision LOL, when Jesus clearly says NO MAN CAN come except the father DRAWS him and further on NO MAN CAN come says unless it is GIVEN. Your Will, as an unregenerated man, is not free as it is in bondage to sin and does NOT seek God (Romans 3:10-12). Dead men cannot come to Christ or do anything apart from God. This is what you will worshippers can't seem to grasp.
after reading 50 comments i have come to a conclusion...it is of the HIGHEST calling to teach God's Word! few have the skill and how anyone can sit under a man under 40 much less 50 is beyond me. all men i see under 40 that teach with confidence embrace their system...they do not own what they say regarding difficult matters as discussed here. There is tremendous psychological empowerment in this for men. If you stay within your system you can rise up...which is why so few men are willing to think outside their system. the more i dig the more complex Christianity becomes. NT Wright believe this, MacArthur believes that, Piper believe this, etc...pick your leader. ONE Bible...many systematic views. So what does God expect from us? This is the internet age...most of life has been people living in small villages with one church. They sat under a pastor and were trying to be obedient. It seems God's grace then must be in working in lives despite a pastor's incomplete knowledge of God's Word. Otherwise, what hope does anyone really have? Now I am referring to Christian churches not per se a Moron church. Get what I am saying here? We need to search the scriptures, but if the most learned cannot agree, what does Joe in church do? What does God expect from us sitting under a pastor?
Hi brother, that is why we do not separate on this issues. Here is a good video: th-cam.com/video/nZVliPjDV6Q/w-d-xo.html
I sat in many different churches hearing different notions of interpretation, buying hundreds of books.
What helped me most was praying and reading the bible over and over, looking up each word nearly in every verse of Scripture.
My favorite bible (KJV) is published by AMG, the Complete Word Study NT and OT, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, and his dictionaries for each edition. It takes diligence and study, and the LORD is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, and receive 'the love of the Truth', so never give up!
James White should’ve called in and made it the “who can stump Dr White show”.
Excellent program 👍
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Who is all?
@@ShepherdMinistry
Who is All ? Unbelievable
@@RR-ue4im If all is every single person then what about the people who never heard of Christ? Why weren’t they drawn by the gospel?
@@ShepherdMinistrybecause we are more concerned about teaching our doctrines in churches and fighting about them online, rather than telling our neighbors about Jesus.
@@ShepherdMinistryWhen did "draw" get redefined to mean "make you hear the gospel"?
i want to thank Dr. Flowers for assuring me that the calvinist position is the most biblical one...I guess even one note banjos have a purpose in the kingdom..
lol
Nice! 👍
Or maybe you lack the full Knowledge of the Bible
"One string banjo," not one note. If you're gonna mindlessly repeat an insult, at least get it right.
thank you for this program- from philippines!
Calvinist start with the wrong premises, because they start collecting premises in NT, ignoring the contradictions that those premises have with OT.
Thank you for having Dr. Flowers on your podcast
Like what?
you realize the majority of Gods attributes are set forth in psalms. thats in the old testament btw
Not only are His attributes described in Psalms, but we can then watch in the OT as history places His attributes on display. God is fully sovereign, and the way that works together with human choice is a deep mystery that we’ll never understand. It is God’s power that make it all possible.
@@PaDutchRunner
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, “What doest thou?” Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so."
A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy, chapter 22 “The Sovereignty of God”
Properly defining Sovereign is key as it doesn't mean divine meticulous determinism. God can foreknow absolutely everything that will ultimately come to pass without it 'necessitating' God being the CAUSE of predetermining everything God foreknew. Isaiah 46:10. God knows the end to the beginning and isn't affected by the constructs of time like us.
There's also many scriptures Calvinists ignore from the NT, especially the warnings Jesus gave constantly, including the way is narrow that leads to salvation and broad is the path to damnation and many will follow it. Choice! Freewill!
Advice to all that only JESUS can saves us.
GODBLESS all
YES!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!
woa this was really good.
Response on pharaoh so far is the number one in arguments
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you
John 17: 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Romans 9 :15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Abraham was a sinner. Yet when God spoke to him, he believed God. And it was counted to him for righteousness. He heard the word of faith and believed and acted on what he heard. He was not saved first then believed, he believed first after hearing directly from God THEN it was counted to him for righteousness. Faith came before the Law was introduced. Faith comes from hearing God's Word and acting on it. Righteousness comes through faith, not through the Law.
Everyone who believes is considered as children of faithful Abraham.
Paul explains this in Galatians and Romans, the sameone whom wrote some of those verses you make mention of. Abraham saw Jesus (before the days of His flesh) and rejoiced, leapt for joy.
Abram WAS called of God. Abram heard and took heed to the voice of God. Abram began his walk of faith LONG before the Law ever came into existence.
Jesus spoke much about Abraham.
He is counted as the father of all those who believe in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Himself said - You must be born again.... unless you are.... you will not see or enter into the Kingdom of God.
How are we born again? By the Holy Spirit's work.
We are born again by the Holy Spirit after we believe. Whoever believes (1) on the Son shall (2) have Life.
To as many as received Him, to them (those who received Jesus) gave He authority to be called the sons (children) of God.
We are begotten, Peter says, not by corruptible seed, but by the Word of God which is alive and remains forever.
When the 3000 unsaved souls heard Peter preaching in the house above them, they were stabbed in the heart. The Holy Spirit convicted them of sin, righteousness and judgment. In fear for their unsaved souls, they cried out - What MUST WE DO. Peter says - Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
They had to turn completely away from their sinful ways, to God, submit to water baptism which was a commitment to discipleship to Jesus (see Exodus 14, where Israel was baptized unto Moses, which day God saved them from the hand of Pharaoh; see 1 Cor 10:1-4), just as Israel was discipled (disciplined) by Moses.
Cornelius wasn't saved but he prayed and fasted for 3 days into a fourth day. An angel appeared and told him to send for Peter who will tell you WHAT YOU MUST DO.
Peter came and preached in that house, they heard and believed and were instantly filled with the Holy Ghost. Then Peter commanded them to be baptised, immersed in the name of the Lord.
Peter tells the saints in Jerusalem that God granted repentance also to the Gentiles and the Holy Spirit sealed them.
Believing comes after hearing. Being born again - saved comes as a result of believing.
Yes God calls.... the call goes out to all mankind. Jesus gave a few parables to explain this.
Faith comes by HEARING. Hearing comes by the Word of God.
Paul says whoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall (as a result) be saved.
But he reasons: how can they call on Him they have not believed?
So calling upon follows believing.
How shall they believe in Him they have not heard about?
Believing follows the hearing.
And how shall they hear unless one is sent?
Hearing is a result of God sending someone, like Moses to the Israelites in Egypt; likeJesus to earth: like Peter to Cornelius.
heard about?
Some believe and they are chosen, because God was in the process.
It is all contingent on God.
It is God's work, but he will not violate the independent volition of man, who was made in the image and likeness of God.
Some chose not to believe because they love their sin too much. They hate the Light and refuse to come to the Light lest their deeds are exposed.
God is our Salvation.
Jesus is our Salvation.
The Lord is my Light and my Salvation, whom then shall I fear?
When Calvinists use John 6:44 as a prooftext for T.U.and I of T.U.L.I.P. .... Let's look at John 12:32 and Matthew 22:1-14. When we examine the passage in John 12 it clearly doesn't align with the Calvinist interpretation of John 6:44 or the wedding banquet in Matthew 22:1-14 so the John 6:44 prooftext is shown to not be proper exegesis.
John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Matthew 22:1-14
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
@@jasonfrost6595 Matthew 5:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (the house of Spiritual Israel) the gentile woman's God given faith proved she was one of His children, one of the Spiritual Israel of God.
Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
8
In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
John 6:44 was addressed. If the word "draws" means what you say it mean then the Dr. Very thoroughly answered it. The Bible also says in John that the exact SAME word "draw" is used to state He draws everyone. That should completely resolve the first verse, do you agree
@@donstevensii7293 He will draw "all" His people, His sheep. He said that He came to save His people from their sins. He doesn't save the goats, the chaff, the children of the devil. He tells them He never knew them. He called the Pharisees children of the devil.
Spurgeon said ..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts --some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
Great job! ☝️
Thank you for this Remnant Radio!! Calvinism almost ruined me so I appreciate this so much. Just clicked subscribe.
Same here, same here!!! 🙋🏻♀️My family was ready to have me institutionalized, and I'm not exaggerating! Praise God for his goodness, right?
Praise God Kristine! He is truly SO merciful. Man-made philosophy puts you in a box full of dissonance but the true, unfiltered Gospel will set you free! God IS love!!
Pat: You are probably trolling me but, on the small chance you aren't, Calvinism teaches Devine, meticulous determinism which logically leads to God electing some while damning a larger number to hell BEFORE they were even born. This deterministic view wasn't taught by ANY Christian until Augustine, in his later years as he conflated his former Manichean Gnosticism philosophy with Christianity so as to win an argument with his contemporary, Pelagius. This also logically leads to God being the author of all sin. Calvinist try to mask this by teaching philosophical compatibilism but, that's just kicking the can down the road a little further. When I understood what Reformed Theologians were actually teaching, I wanted nothing to do with this God. I almost just walked away like many have done. Again, if by chance your question isn't rhetorical, study even just the U in "TULIP" for a specific teaching, then study The Gospel. The cognitive dissonance caused by these two diametrically opposed teachings is enough to ruin any honest, open minded, logical thinker.
My "paranoia" comes from years of experience of dealing with Calvinist who "be hatin". I don't know you but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and, had you responded politely, I would've responded as many times as necessary to make sure you understood where I'm coming from. I do troll trolls but, again, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Glad your first response was sincere.
Now you're getting honest! Thanks for proving me correct. You don't have to agree with me but don't pretend you don't realize why I would have "animosity" toward the PHILOSOPY(it is not a doctrine) of a puppet master God arbitrarily damning his creatures for his glory. I noticed you changed the word I used, "determination" to "providence". NOT the same thing. Troll. Then you included "foreordination", a word you, no doubt, do not properly understand. "What about your hatred" you say. You went all ad hominem instead of attempting to refute what I stated. Canned, troll responses.. Like the left today, you will accuse me of a hate crime next I guess...Typical. I knew I was right about you. I will not read your comments after this. Go troll someone who has the time and no brain...
My response to "it is impossible for someone to come to Christ unless the Father draws him" John 12:32 - And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
You’re confusing the Father with Jesus here
@@ShepherdMinistry John 12:30-32 NIV - Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Am I misunderstanding what your saying? Because it seems to me that Jesus said it. You may be referring to something else that I am unaware of though.
@@popoffs5273 If Jesus draws all men to himself, do you believe that means every single person in the world?
We have to keep in mind Jesus said God draws them yo Him and He will raise them up on the last day. Meaning those that come to Jesus by God are saved.
John 6:44
[44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
THANK YOU for this!! It is SSOOO helpful! I never really learned what calvinism is or meant before. I grew up all Pentecostal and in the last ten years ran around Word of Faith. Both are very free-will/Armenian, although neither talked about it nor explained it. The problem is, Word of Faith adds "jurisdiction" to "free-will." (In other words, God's is waiting for man to 'take authority' and enact His plans (heaven to earth), which extremely denegrades the Sovereignty of God. Many other errors in Word of Faith, but this is a foundational one and points back to the extremes of Armenianism that can lead to error; while I think there are extreme errors of Calvinism also, I think moderate stances on both are fully within orthodoxy.) Having been delivered from WoF, there is a lot of pressure to go Calvinist, but I just couldn't support their understanding of predestination. I might still study more, but this is such an excellent and studied platform to go from and helps me know what/when/where to look at. Thanks so much.
If you need more read The Potter's Promise by Leighton. It's pretty good.
@@huntsman528 thanks. I got it and read it (or most of it) some time after the original comment
Just go back to the apostles doctrine, which was the doctrine of Jesus Christ.
In Jesus Christ is the fulness of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
It is neither Calvin nor Arminius we should be seeking, nor yet Luther, nor Augustine, nor yet any other mere man or their words.
Jesus said - Follow Me. Period.
Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism can help us. Both guys are dead. Their writings are not Scripture nor even close to Scripture.
It is the Word of God we must be feasting on. Daily. Weekly. Yearly.
There the Holy Spirit will teach us of Jesus. There we will see the power of God evidenced in the lives of individuals and nations.
Hebrews 4:12 says the Word of God is ALIVE, VIBRANT, ACTIVE, it can renew our minds, change our behaviour to become conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
Jesus was neither Calvinist or Arminianist. We do not need to use those men, nor should we, as demarcation lines in our experience.
Praise God for any good thing they did, but much mischief has resulted from their efforts.
Jesus said, those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (as specified by God) shall be filled.
Let us seek the fulness of the blessing of Christ. Let us go on to perfection. Let us build up ourselves in our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost - Jude.
The Gospel is THE POWER OF GOD unto salvation ... Rom 1:16
The Word of God is ALIVE AND POWERFUL... Heb 4:12
The GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD ... Acts 20:24
You are right Leighton. The gosple is more than the fact that Jesus Christ , died was buried and rose again. That is the climax, the fulfillment.
John Calvin .... and every one else who has passed, now knows.
Having attended Willow Creek for several years, and growing up in western Michigan, I think Hybels is Calvinist, except having adopted believer baptism for practical reasons.
"And from the wicked their light is withholden." (Job 38:15)
it is their light, which means they have it...
@@roystutzer4609 they had it and it is deminished/removed so that they may know what the darkness is and be provoked to envy/repentance that they may seek to do good.
We go by the whole Bible not parts of it
Thank you
I love Leighton's eisegesis. very entertaining.
Keith Sturgill,
I would like to respond to your comments but for some reason I cannot see your entire responses. This comment section has become so convoluted that I can't even find the area in which we were discussing. Sorry. Perhaps we can pick this up at another time.
This was good.
Romans 12:3
Gifts of Grace
[3] For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, 👉each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
Watched this again the second time two years later. it was better than the first time. Lol.
How’d you do that? It’s a year old. 🤣😂
@@pinknoise365 originally streamed in 2019.😉
@@gialovesjesus8350 November 4th, 2019. 😜
@@pinknoise365 I guess I’m getting too old to do the math. 😂
I think Christians on both sides of this debate have spent so much time arguing over the things we ultimately can’t answer that we’ve forgotten there’s a real enemy out there who hates God, hates the gospel, and hates Christians. Many folks on these forums are still so consumed with this to the point of an unhealthy walk. Can y’all admit that there are questions you can’t answer and unify in Christ?
These questions can be answered! The Calvinist side is telling people God hasn’t provided salvation for all but the other is saying He has! I think it’s a worthy topic of discussion! And I by no means think it means we’ve forgotten the enemy!
@@lauren8407 matthew is correct in his opinion. a quick look through large libraries of content creators will show the amount of material that is used to evaluate and debate difference of Christian doctrine. there are even channels who only share content on tearing apart other views. there is a large amount of content creators who do everything except preach the gospel.
based
That was my attitude for 20 years! I was neutral on this topic until I found good Biblical arguments for Provisionism in the Calvinistic proof texts. Why do I think it's important? Because logically, Calvinism makes no sense, and makes God look like someone who hates most people and the author of evil! I have concluded the Bible doesn't teach these things!
Yes, I own a stump grinder, and will donate my services. Where, and when?
Just goes to show you can have 32 degrees and still be freezing cold…Lol
My question is does God save Jew and gentile the same? I have a follow up question after you answer this one.
This was awesome!
Where this debate comes down to how you define Grace. Both sides say we are saved by grace but grace means different things.
Remnant needs to interview John Barclay on his book Paul and the power of grace. Many theologians say his earlier book "Paul and the gift" is the most significant theological work in the last 50 years.
Just curious why Leighton lets his admins on Soteriology " 101 " remove Born Again believers including myself , that do not find " Reformers " as Spiritually born again Believers , as they do fully deny :( John 3:16 , and most of all other foundational Biblical text regarding God as non partial and a God of Love ? Again , if these " Rome Reformers " are as you straight out imply > are indeed your " brothers in Christ " , then why spend all your waking hours , mainly challenging their obviously " man added theological non prophet nonsense " ?
Amen. Yes sir. The gospel is an eternal gospel for all ages. Past, present, and future. And Christ is the fulfilment of the gospel.
Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth-to every nation, tribe, language and people.
I’d love to hear you explain Romans 12:3 about faith. Who distributes it?
Read that in context. It's speaking of spiritual gifts. Another verse which speaks of something similar is 1st Corinthians 12:8-10 which says "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues"
This shows a similar idea of different measures of faith among believers. That is different from a saving faith in Christ.
@@timothyschreiber8338 you’re complicating it too much because it doesn’t fit your reason. You’re gonna have to trust what scripture clearly points out. Faith comes from God alone. Ephesians 2 also explains this.
@@villarrealmarta6103 Ephesians 2 says salvation is the gift of God, since it's not from works.
@@Mike65809 amen 🙏 good answer
Scripture DESTROYS limited atonenents! Once one point of calvinism falls - they all fall!
I enjoyed this so much, thank you
Thanks to all the great Bible scholars in the comments section who think their opinion on the issue is the right one.
Deuteronomy 30. I give you a choice of life or death. Please choose life. God didn't say you will choose life because I choose you. Book of Jeremiah is almost all God asking Israel to repent or be judged and they CHOSE to say no for years. It never once said God ordained them to rebel against their will. God grieved over the evil heart of man. Why would he if he preordained them to be that way? He wouldnt. Thanks for the program guys!
Rico Bonifacio,
It is not necessary that every passage that presents a sinner's responsibility to repent and choose life should explain how those who apart from divine grace have, by sinful nature, no inclination to do so, ever come to repentance. One must take the Scriptures as a whole to find such answers.
You asked, " Why would he if he preordained them to be that way? He wouldnt." Your assumption seems to be that God is the proximate cause of all that he has ordained. God's electing decree causes no one's condemnation. God grieves over human sinfulness because His nature is Holy. He cannot but desire the sinner's repentance because of his nature. Unless you believe God's knowledge of future events was, contingent on human decision, and therefore uncertain and incomplete, you must acknowledge that he determined by the very act of bringing the universe into existence that all He knew for certain was to occur was certain to occur. It is God's decision that what he knew perfectly would occur would be certain to occur for His eternal glory and for the eternal and spiritual good of His people. He determined that all that would not suit that end was to be excluded from His universe. He has not determined what will occur because he foresaw it, but knows it ahead of time but because he has determined beforehand that it will occur for the accomplishment of his eternal purpose.
Hey Remnant. This is 3 years later, but it would be nice if you had timestamps especially on call-in shows, like Mike Winger has. Thanks!
Yes, a big help!
Very important concept to understand…
chosen/elected ≠ saved
chosen/elected = purposed
Hi Brother in Christ Just wanted to ask if you can provide clarity to your statement? Any biblical verses to support it?
@@johncyreltabora4939
Ephesians 1:4 (HCSB)
For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.
Before the foundation of the world, God chose those who would be found in Him for a purpose: to be holy and blameless in His sight.
The verse does not say:
For He chose us TO BE in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.
@@theidolbabblerthedailydose33
The beauty of reading a verse in context not chopped up haha
@@theidolbabblerthedailydose33
Thats the verse? The text says He chose us to be holy and blameless ie saved. I think that’s a really bad example to try to disprove calvinism my brother.
@@ogloc6308
Choosing someone to be holy and blameless does not equal “saved.” If it did, then works save.
Really good podcast... I'm still getting through it. However Dr flowers in my opinion dropped the ball when he d chose not to read acts 4:27 through 28. That one really seems to clearly support the reform position of which I am currently struggling with still. To send that he discounted that pastor's question and it would have been more impactful had he read the scripture and talked through it. Otherwise very intelligent and respectful conversation so far
God has an elect remnant with both Jew and Gentile. It’s called the Church.
Everything God WILLS, God DESIRES.....but all
God desires, He does not will.
Will is an action, desire is a want, a feeling.
Clalvinist view will and desire as the same.
Great interview!
Did you see how flowers answer’s are followed with philosophy
Where do I listen to this show live?
Soteriology 101
Proverbs 5:21 answers the “what does God know about our choices”
Calvinists seem to have power to define and even undermine the very mind of God.
How?
FIRE 🔥
Poor guy. Pray for him.
The very expression “the Grace of God” implies and denotes that the sinner’s condition is desperate to the last degree, and that God may justly leave him to perish; yea, it is a wonder of wonders that he is not already in hell.
Grace is a divine provision for those who are so depraved they cannot change their own nature, so averse from God they will not turn to Him, so blind they can neither see their malady nor the remedy, so dead spiritually that God must bring them out of their graves on to resurrection ground if ever they are to walk in newness of life.
Grace is the sinner’s last and only hope; if he is not saved by grace, he will never be saved at all. Grace levels all distinctions, and regards the most zealous religionist on the same plane as the most profligate, the chaste virgin as the foul prostitute. Therefore God is perfectly free to save the chiefest of sinners and bestow His mercy on the vilest of the vile.
“I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed!” [Mal. 3:6]
A W Pink
Great Talk!
If calvinism view on determination is true, the old and new testament contradict each other. And God is schizophrenic? God grieved over but ordained their rebellion. Jesus cried over Israel riding into the city but only choses a predestined few? So that's why I shun calvinisms predetermined outcome theory.
Rico,
If God were the proximate cause of all that he has ordained, there might be some conflict between His ordination of all things and His revealed desires that flow from his holy character. It is not that God is schizophrenic at all but that he chooses according to his highest inclination. For those who deny God's decree, His highest inclination is toward the preservation of human free will. He would rather that billions of sinners perish than to intervene and grant them a heart-felt desire to love and please him. Biblically, His highest inclination is to manifest His own glory. There is no conflict between God's sovereign decree and the free decisions of sinners.
Predestination is not fatalism.
I think you’re just misinterpreting calvinists. Calvinists still believe that humans have a will and make choices, but their choices are limited by God’s sovereign decree of what He allows them to do. People still make the choice to sin if God allows them to. If i want to steal an orange then I might plan to steal the orange. If God allows me to steal the orange then I steal the orange. If God doesn’t allow me to steal the orange then i don’t steal the orange.
God often intervenes and doesn’t allow people to do certain things. Just like how Pharaoh seemingly wouldve repented and let the Jews go after the first few plagues, God further hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that he would not let the Jews go. Why? To display His power to the whole world. To display His grace, mercy and blessing to His people while displaying His vengeance against the wicked. You have no problem with God intervening in this scenario even though He is seemingly causing Pharaoh to not let the Jews go.
What about God’s sovereign election of Israel? He chose Israel to receive the prophets, the promises, the covenants and the oracles while not choosing any other nation. You have no problem with this even though it likely means that the majority of gentiles (before Christ’s atonement) probably died in their sin. Why?
What about God’s election of Noah and his family? What about God’s election of Jacob? What about God’s election of Abraham?
@ogloc6308 would you say that the reprobate can only make bad choices? If so, that's still not free will? That's locking someone in a prison cell and then saying they can go wherever they want in the prison at anytime? They are not free to anything but the prison cell.
Another point in John 10 to refute the Calvinist viewpoint is in verses 37 & 38 where Jesus seems to be trying to reason with them through scripture why they ought to believe He is who He says He is. Why would he do that if he knew they were not elected. Why would he continue to appeal to them and ask them to believe if election were true.
I like to hear "both sides of the coin." My ex-husband took my son to a Presbyterian Church for awhile, and I was never sure of what they believed.
I have some wonderful Pressy friends who genuinely love Jesus Christ.
The real issue is do we place the Word of God above all other words, even "chatacisms"? Do we read the Word of God through denominational glasses, or do we read it as a man dying of thirst drinks a glass of cool refreshing water?
Do we seek Jesus in the pages of the Bible, or are we seeking to defend a denominational position.
"They cannot reply positively to God's call, because of the fall"....."I just push back on that, where does it say that?"..."It says enables them to respond".....Wait what?!? Doesn't the fact that we need to be "enabled" by definition mean we are unable, or cannot, until we are enabled?? No idea how this can be confusing to him when he clearly just proves the point
Basically, "Calvinism" requires God to DIRECTLY empower a Man through an infusion of a DESIRE for Him, BEFORE the Man can actually have faith in God. In other words, a Man can be in the darkest fringes of the Earth and if God, by His Sovereign will, "empowers" the Man then he will SEEK and FIND God, and WILL come to Salvation, "no holds barred".
The Bible, however, paints a very different picture. The Bible affirms that a Man CANNOT go to Jesus, and ultimately to God, unless God draws him through His Word. The method used by God to "draw" Men is not by a DIRECT infusion of faith, rather it is by REVELATION of Himself through His Word, through PREACHING of the Word, i.e. the Gospel Message.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
If He does not REVEAL Himself to Man, through a Gospel REVELATION, then Man CANNOT know Him, so Man is dependent on God REVEALING Himself to Man for him to come to Salvation. Man MUST be given LIGHT, i.e. God MUST reveal Himself, for Man to be ENABLED to either "receive" the Light or "refuse" the Light. No-one can either choose or reject that which has not been offered.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
The "Calvinists" have gotten themselves into the old "cart before the horse" conundrum. In essence, "Calvinists" have CHOSEN the "egg" first before the "chicken" and have asserted that God "nursed" the "chick" to full fruition into a "chicken". It SOUNDS Nice and Sovereignty, God being entirely in control, but it is basically CONTRARY to how the Scriptures portray God's Sovereignty. From the beginning God REVEALED Himself by His Word to Man and Man was made responsible for the decisions he made BASED on what God had VERBALLY REVEALED about Himself. There is and has ALWAYS been ONLY one way of Salvation and that has been:
Rom 10:17 So then FAITH COMES by HEARING, and HEARING by the WORD of God.
Men CANNOT be "drawn" to God nor to Jesus UNLESS someone, a Preacher, preaches the Gospel for THEM to "hear" and believe or "hear" and NOT believe.
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that HEARETH my WORD, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
This ain't "rocket science".
Calvinism is legitimate heresy.
@@justchilling704 - Basically, "Calvinism" is just "Augustinianism" which is just plain'o Pagan Greco Roman Catholicism which denies the "saving" power of the "Gospel of Christ" and the "hearing of faith" which leads to Salvation "in Christ".
On point, and that's called two way relationship between men and God🙏
Many are called but few are chosen because few responded
@@paulnavarro3822 It’s unfortunate how mainstream such thinking has become among western Christians.
Thank u for your work just want to add a simple solution in my mind ..Romans says they are without excuse..that tells me everyone has a chance but they are simply not willing but scripture is clear God is willing..
To add to the question of Pharoa...remember Isaiah 46:10 says God can tell the end from the beginning, so God told Moses the end of Pharoa before it began as God knew he would harden his heart and then God will give him over as God knows the future. God did not begin the hardening, Pharoa's pride did, God merely said (OWN VERY LOOSE TRANSLATION)...If you don't want My will to be done, have your will be done.
Andries Lerm Amen God only hardened Pharaoh’s heart AFTER he freely rejected God FIRST in Exodus 5:2.
Never understood it this way. Thanks for sharing
Actually, if you read the whole Bible, you'll note 2 things:
1. No prophet or apostle ever says "God hardened AFTER Pharaoh hardened". They always/only say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and they leave it there.
2. They probably did not skip Ps 105:25
[+]And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes. He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants. (Ps 105:24-25)
In other words, God moved first to harden all of Egypt so they would abuse the Israelites.
BTW, if you count every time Pharaoh's hart is mentioned in Exod 1-14, you'll see a very peculiar pattern. The condition of Pharaoh's heart is mentioned exactly 20 times:
10x God hardened
5x Unstated who hardened his heart
3x Pharaoh hardened
2x Pharaoh softened (repented)
Bear in mind that God is not required to harden someone's heart just because they spite Him. He didn't harden S/Paul's heart: He sent him a vision and got him saved. He could have done the same for Pharaoh. And Sodom and Gomorrah (See Matt 11:20-25)
God deliberately chose to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let His people go so that God could strike him down. That's what the Bible repeats. We should repeat it too.
Our takeway needs to be the same as the prophets and apostles: "God hardened Pharaoh's heart".
And leave it there. Just like they did.
@@apilkey
Before Moses ever encounters Pharaoh, The LORD tells him in advance, '...but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go!' (Ex.4:21)
Why don't you read the entire bible a few times, so you don't keep thinking you are correct! You must have meant Ex.5:2, not Gen.5:2... hmmm
Michael Stanley Yes I meant Exodus 5:2 thanks for the correction.
And thanks for the advice on reading the Bible a few times.
I have and I will continue to do so I hope you take your advice as well.
Now let’s breakdown and expose your assumptions surrounding pharaoh:
Let’s take a look at God’s FIRST MENTION of Pharaoh.
God had FOREKNOWLEDGE that Pharoah wouldn’t let them go unless He stretched forth His hand.
He didn’t meticulously hard determine that he wouldn’t before the foundation of the world.
This passage says nothing of the sort.
God knew he wouldn’t because he was not ALREADY following after the Lord.
FREEWILL FIRST THEN GOD’S MIGHTY HAND.
Sequence of events was NOT God predestining Pharoah’s heart to be hardened FIRST.
We need to look at the sequence of events:
EXODUS 3:19
19 AND I AM SURE THAT THE KING OF EGYPT WILL NOT LET YOU GO, NO, NOT BY A MIGHTY HAND.
20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and AFTER THAT HE WILL LET YOU GO.
EXODUS 4:21
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: BUT I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go.
This passage is simply God saying what He will do and makes no mention of anything being predetermined.
God knew Pharaoh would freely reject Him and He knew He would then AFTERWARDS harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Mr. Flowers, what happened to the message of Reconciliation that we are supposed to take to the world? What happened to reconciling our minds to the fact that the Father imputed all our sin to Christ so that those who believe the accomplished act of forgiveness receive the imputed righteousness of Christ to forever stand justified before the Father. I listen to McArthur, James White, etc. and it’s as they have never heard of this or dismiss it. What say you?
I like have Flowers threw in the accusation of "philosophical assertions,'" yet constantly was referring to free will, which is more of a philosophical concept than a biblical one. But I don't expect Leighton to understand that, since it's impossible for him to understand his own inconcistencies.
"free will = the ability to choose from available options"
Deuteronomy 30:19 NIV
[19] This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now *CHOOSE* life, so that you and your children may live
Here's a verse Calvinists sure love to quote don't they??
I love the discussions I will continue to listen. But I think that as humans we tend to make things too complicated. si think is simple, God created everything he established the plan of redemption perfect as it is, it has two outcomes for those who receive the free gift of salvation, eternal salvation, those who reject eternal damnation.
I respect Leighton but his answer are not convincing I still agree with reformed theology
@Sir Isaac Newton I disagree with Leighton on his objection towards reformed theology, I believe God is sovereign over everything and we can not choose God on your own accord. I believe Jesus himself and the apostle spoke about this, there is a mystery about God being sovereign and humans being fully responsible it might sound like im contradicting but our minds can grasp what God does he's perfect
@Sir Isaac Newton preaching the gospel is simple in that God loves you and he Sent his son to die for your sins. The ones that end up saved will hear the message and they will have eternal life. We don't know who the elect are so we preach to everyone
@Sir Isaac Newton I know of many that go to homeless shelters. I'm far from many that do it but I volunteer and give my time, that's what Christians suppose to do
@Sir Isaac Newton I know I agree
@Sir Isaac Newton jesus never said I'm God worship me but we do because he said it in different ways, he is God. The holy spirit that guided the apostle wrote these things
Is it valid to argue this, can a child decide to be born or can he choose his parents? Can it be applied spiritually?
If a man cannot chose God, and His ways, then why did God make an appeal to Cain to do what was right. In Gen. 4:6 The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 IF YOU DO WELL, will you not be accepted? And if YOU DO NOT WELL, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.” GOD did not think that Cain could not in his spiritually dead condition - CHOOSE to do well. TOTAL DEPRAVITY does not mean TOTAL INABILITY. Evidently according to this verse God did not hold the doctrine of INABILITY of the Calvinist.
God appeals to everyone. That doesn’t equate to God chooses everyone. Not trying to argue...just giving a plausible answer to your question. 🙂
So Cain could have done other than what he did? You don’t see how this contradicts the whole point? Cain was predestined to do exactly what he did and predestined for his inevitable judgement. Otherwise God would’ve intervened. Since God allowed the actions of Cain, he determined it, becomes he is the Creator and knew what was going to come to pass. You can’t escape this. Free will doesn’t exist. Get over it.
@@jtslev read the text: Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 IF YOU DO WELL, shalt thou not be accepted? and IF YOU DO NOT WELL, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
@@garyscalf2225 Look, we all choose based on the condition of our heart. We don’t know our heart any more than we know the future. Our hearts act of their own accord; by their own nature, which is corrupt, and our conscience, plus God’s Word tells us to obey God’s law and turn from our fallen desires to appeal to the flesh. On top of all this, God has created the universe with a specific purpose in mind. Thus, it must logically follow that God has determined everything for it’s purpose. That purpose is to glorify Himself through His creation, and put on display His attributes and character. Throughout this work that God is doing, we who believe have the unfathomable blessing to be determined to be recipients of God’s eternal love, mercy, and grace. We recognize this and understand that we owe everything to God because without His designing every aspect of our being, we would have no power to do anything or be anything. We are wholly reliant on God for our body mind and soul, which includes our thoughts and choices. Therefore, autonomous free will is a myth, and nothing more than a figment of your fallen imagination. If your will is in line with God, you have no freedom. Freedom implies deviation from God’s will, which is sin. You boast in having free will? You’re really boasting in your ability to reject God’s will, but even that was ordained. This is logically inescapable. You must first abandon logic because you cannot explain where an autonomous free will comes from if not created by God, and if God created your will, you aren’t “free” in the grand scheme of things. That’s ok though, because God is allowed to create however He pleases, and His justice is still valid because He’s only giving those who reject Him what they ultimately want; independence at the price of punishment. No one goes to hell who didn’t agree to make that sacrifice.
@@jtslev Therefore, autonomous free will is a myth, and nothing more than a figment of your fallen imagination. Brother, you may think it is a myth. The greatest attribute that God has is the ability to choose. Cod gave both angels and men the ability to choose. Michael and Gabriel who kept their first estate have to this day the ability to choose God whereas Lucifer and his angels departed from the faith. God gave Adam and Eve a choice of what tree to eat and not to eat from. Men and Angels were given the ability to choose or not to choose and it's our ability to be able to choose God that actually glorifies God. I see the ability to choose as a good thing given by God and you see it as a negative thing. Thank you for your comment. blessings
The "choosing,"may or may not be a blessing. The choosing of the Jews was a responsibility God placed on the Jews. Leighton's daughter bringing the gifts to her siblings is a responsibility Leighton assigned her.
Foreknowledge and foreknew are two completely different. Wish Leighton realized the difference.
What’s the difference?
What's the difference?
@@danielletracyann foreknowledge is a noun and foreknew is an active verb
The meaning remains the same awareness of something before it happens. They are not completely different
@@danielletracyann For knowing something is not foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is passively having knowledge of future events. But in Romans 8 when it says those He foreknew it means knowing someone. The golden chain of redemption found in Romans 8 speaks of active verbs such as foreknew, predestine, call, justify and glorify. God undertakes these actions. Foreknew is an acting verb always referring to persons never actions in history. That’s the difference.
Dr Flowers didn't address Ephesians 2 in his final answer. I would love to hear it. Thank you all.
Dr Flowers is the answer to the prayers of those who couldn't find Calvinism in the Bible or Arminianism. PROVISIONISM is the only biblical view that makes sense according to the Bible alone. Popularity or marketing by Calvinism does not make it correct or sound doctrine. The more I know Calvinists the more I see the dangers of such terrible misrepresentation of God to the point many now are trying to convert people to Calvinism instead of Messiah Himself. That's extremely dangerous and I see the anger and bitterness in them when you reject their theology. That's very telling.
Only took 2,000 years for the only correct view. 😂 give me a break. To your point about conversion though, no one should convert anyone to Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Provisionism, etc. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.
Typical of Leighton Flowers:
The question (37:41): “You talked about God ordaining the end but not necessarily the means - you used the chess analogy. The original question was in the context of Herod and the cross. If God did not predestine that Herod and Pilot and others would crucify Jesus, what is your interpretation of Acts 4:27-28”
"Want me to pull that one up?" Said the moderator.
Leighton: “No...”
Typical Leighton getting uneasy whenever the Bible is referenced
Read Acts 4:27-28. Then listen to his answer: ( 38:10)
Ten years seems to be the limit. That’s what it took me to understand the heresy. It’s insidious.
I never did fall for this demonic heresy, the moment I found out what it taught I immediately noticed it as heretical and evil.
@@justchilling704 what’s demonic and evil about the “heresy” that you were so wise to avoid?
@@andrewoverholser491 Determinism.
@@justchilling704 well, since predestination is not fatalism the question remains.
Fascinating that most of Israel was apostate. Yet, they were chosen and elect!
Chosen and elect, not for heaven or hell, but for service.