"NATO Burp Guns" - Winchester's 1950s Experimental SMGs
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In the mid 1950s, the Winchester company designed a compact 9mm submachine gun for military use. It was internally called the. "NATO Burp Gun", and according to Winchester historian Herbert House, was developed in part (or with the assistance of) Melvin Johnson. The design was a simple tubular receiver with a folding stock that doubled as a vertical front grip when folded. Instead of an external charging handle, it used serrations cut in the side of the bolt, making the gun sleek and compact (albeit more difficult to cock). Today we are looking at the N2 and M4 developmental patterns, both housed at the Cody Firearms Museum. The development program got little further than these prototypes before Winchester abandoned it.
Thanks to the Cody Firearms Museum for allowing me access to film these very interesting prototypes! Check them out here: centerofthewes...
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This looks like a gun that was designed with the sole requirement that "gun shoots bullet"
Isnt that the only purpose? Anything else is refinement, cost, extra material, manufactuer and increeasd final price.
And yet manages to be very aesthetically pleasing.
Requirement: Uses metallic cartridges.
All the SMGs in the 50s were designed with VERY low price the main consideration. The Sterling and the Uzi were exceptions. The Italians can make a good case that the Berettas were the best, or at least very very good. Geoff Who can only hope and pray for sensible laws in the US of A.
@@GCJT1949 our laws are sensible enough thank you very much.
“A simple open bolt, how hard can it be?”
Me, who’s never built a firearm: pfft dude couldn’t even do a simple open bolt design
If you look into some of Professor Parabellum's designs you'll see a simple open bolt sub machine gun is one of the easiest practical weapons you could make, and can be cobbled together in a couple hours with hand tools by someone with 0 experience
Having put together a "functional" pistol using an ar15 lower as a trigger group and a barrel blank I had laying around I can say making something that fires is really easy, making it do it well requires a lot of work
@@walt9327 i actually have a bunch of scrap and hand tools. in theory if i wanted to make an open bolt what caliber would be best and what would I need?
@@shoelessbandit1581 "zip guns" used to be more common.
@@historynerd2373 the best caliber is the one you can get easily and cheap
NATO: "So, essentially what we're looking for is an M3 but worse in every way you can think of."
Winchester: "Say no more."
Meh, I think given time this could have been a more expensive alternative
FUNNY! Very witty. And now if these two prototypes ever came on the collector’s market (let’s hope never), they’d probably command a fortune.
@@andycraddock7677 Collectors' markets are funny like that. Do something uniquely wrong enough and make something valuable 70ish years in the future.
@@SimuLord Hooray! I'm not the only one who remembers that movie!
Actually, there is a lot to the potential of this design, that would have been far better than the M3. Especially in 9mm, which would have made it more marketable in Europe, and emerging nations of the day. Give this design to a guy like Eugene Stoner, and a development budget, and you may very well have had a very good SMG for the day. It certainly is a better overall usable design than the MAC 10, and they managed to sell quite a few of those.
Title suggests high rate of fire, thumbnail suggests extreme mechanical simplicity?
*I'm sold.*
Luty bois
High mass breech block would have kept the rate of fire down.
if they had access, this would have been made into a starwars prop.
Exactly my thoughts, as well.
Since they wanted to use it in Eastern Europe...more likely Slav Wars.
@@kinghoodofmousekind2906 The Cold Star Chronicles
@@DevyKins then The Kremlin Strikes Again and the great redemptive finale: Return of the Zar...
Tsar wars
These looks like guns crafted at a workbench in Fallout 4.
I'm starting to notice a trend in forgotten weapons involving the constant comparison to Fallout
The "Defense gun" mod adds pretty much this smg into FO4
@@SlickJim2 nah it's more like a sten gun
Probably the most underrated comment Iv ever seen. This is EXACTLY where these came from!!
For machining on a prototype it isnt bad
“What happens if we leave a M3, a MP40, and a Sten in a dark room together? Let’s find out!”
M340 mk IV?
@@sadcharlie4372 welp guess that the new module SMG for the next fallout/wastland game.
That sounds so wrong.... Like arrest for firearms incest.
Meh more like MP40 and PPS43 together in a dark room together.
Absolutely nothing.
I like the idea of Ian reviewing these guns while they're on display. You're just walking through the museum when you come across Ian in the display case with the guns. I'd definitely pay good money for that.
A museum full of Gun Jesus clones just explaining different firearms from behind a case. They all have uniquely colored latex gloves so as to be told apart from one another.
They could realistically link short (or full length) videos of him in museums.
Walk up, scan a QRcode with your phone and let Ian take you to the magical land of boomstick lore.
@@SirTorcharite they know which Ian they are
These look like something you'd see in Valkyria Chronicles.
Lmao weeb
Me too
mmm, HEFTY handguard
Ah, yes. 4 A.M. on the dot. Just what I was waiting for.
FACTS 😂😂😂
Indeed
Like the spongebob meme where Patrick wakes up at 3am for a krabbt patty "Oh boy! 3am!"
This channel has changed my morning routine...for the better.
It’s 12:00 midday here (UK), a much more civilised time!
Hey Ian,
A small thing. Maybe take a small flashlight with you when doing these video's? I have watched quite a lot of your video's and there are several occasions where you point out something interesting deep inside a gun that are just not visible for the viewer.
Might improve the allready high quality just that little bid more.
All else, keep doing what you do, really enjoy watching all of them.
Greetz Jelle
I don't know your setup, but I usually don't have a problem seeing what Ian's pointing at. Might I suggest looking at the brightness and contrast settings on your preferred viewing device and turning it up a notch (or to try on another device if it seems insufficent)?
@@janhulek785 you sure may, and in most cases you are right.
I watch them on my phone. Usually the brightness is turned down quite a bid to save the battery so that doesn't improve things.
And it isn't a big problem by any means. In all the video's I have watched there are maybe 4-5 instances where I really could not see the interesting bids, even with the brightness turned up.
It would only be a small improvement, but improvement nontheless.
@@De_Wit Not wishing to be rude here, but I think you are viewing Ian's videos on a sub optimal device, there is only so much you can see on a phone size screen. I watch FW videos on an ancient LCD screen at 1280 x 1024 and apart from those times where he actually says 'this maybe difficult to see' I don't have any problems. If you want to see details use a bigger screen.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 but would a small flashlight hurt the experience? no, it would not.
I have a pair of Coast G20 inspection flashlights that I use for... inspecting electrical and plumbing that I am working on. They are low intensity white with a nice sealed beam.
First he talks about museums. Then he has a conversation with curators. Now hes at their museum.
Working his way in.
then he's inside THEM.
@@Scaliad being tied down? No thank you, says he.
he's been to cody a bunch of times in the past
"They were manufacture-WELL, produced......"
Perfect way to teach exact meaning of manufacturing and producing to non-English speakers :)
@@alirezanazarahari8342 totally agree.
@Fluesterwitz russians, for example, still use somehow outdated word "мануфактура" to describe facility using mostly manual labor.
@@alirezanazarahari8342 As a native English speaker, I usually assumed the two were interchangeable to be honest
@@NovaXP To a certain degree they are. But, IMO, manufacture sounds more like it's mechanically made, though that may just be because of how it's used.
"What do we use for a skeletal stock?"
"Well, my wife just divorced me and cleaned out her closet. I've got a few thousand wire hangers."
"Perfect. It's settled, then. Next problem."
Top ejection, eh? Yep, that's a Winchester.
Fellow Canadian
You mean a PPSH-41???
orrr Vz. 61 Skorpion?
It looks like something a friend from Florida would throw together in his garage to get around sweeping gun restrictions.
Ah... Floridaman!
Or to raid the Capitol. #FloridaMan
Strangely Specific
Sorry, I had to chuckle at the thought that "manufacture" literally means "made by hand". It's fascinating how language has changed.
The distinction still exist in my language. In Polish we have "manufaktura" meaning a pre assembly line shop doing manufacturing, "fabryka" which would be a full on factory and an ofshoot of both "zakład produkcyjny" literally "production works", like russian zavod, which could be anything from a small scale to multi factory enterprise.
@@JumaiPL which is funny, when I was doing aircraft maintenance, we had to write "fabricated a replacement part" when we made something by hand.
@@JumaiPL that's an insteresting difference. In russian we also have "manufaktura" wich basically has same meaning as polish.
You mean to tell me these weren't made for a cartel in Brazil?
Thought the same when i saw these, couple months ago the police got a hold on whole batch of SMGs that looked just like these two but a little more crude tho.
NuclearMedicineman Australia has biker gangs? Biker gangs that are machining their own weapons? Isn’t this the same country that outlawed nerf guns? Huh. And here I thought they just went around overlanding, cat hunting, and saving babies from dingos.
Edit: outlawed gel blasters.
Could as likely been made in a barn in County Armagh...
I expect they are meant for the armory in the cartel’s mini sub.
This would be called "SMG" In a cheap game lol
Cleaner's Carbine without the silencer
Like a Fallout STEN. Nice.
well, this would definitely be preferable as a Makeshift Gun over the Pipe guns. MPL, Sten and more would also be preferable. Ingram model 6/M2 would also be better.
I thought so too!
Reminds me of a slimmed down 10mm SMG
@@drivanradosivic1357 the final months of WW2 weapons are the best for any postapoc game, exactly for the ease of production from scrap.
I always installed WW2 weapons to stalker and fallout.
And opening that folding stock would take 4 adhesive, two screws, a rank in Gun Nut, and would add 1.5 weight.
@@m1a4abrams50 I think it shouldn't do that. Maybe one oil to "grease it loose" to fold and unfold it.
Given their simplicity and nickname of burp gun, perhaps they were made in response to the effective use of the Ppsh in Korea.
Burp gun seems to be a colloquial term at the time to refer to *any* submachine gun, as according to the Webster dictionary, the term was first recorded to refer to submachine guns back in 1937, although other sources indicate a 1940 origin.
Still, it predates Korea by a decade, and I do know of an account on the use of the BAR where a very experienced sergeant in WWII who used one cut off the pistol grip of “a German burp gun” and fitted it to the fore end of his BAR so he could use it “like a burp gun.”
Yes, sergeants were supposed to be issued M1 Carbines. No, not everyone exactly followed the TO&E, and the guy’s CO was of the opinion that soldiers should use the weapon which they saw most fit for them. Which for that sergeant, who began as a BAR gunner, was the BAR, which he retained when promoted.
I definitely need to get to the Cody Museum this year. If not for Forgotten Weapons I would have never been aware of it.
0:43 that is a divine sound effect when he picks the book for show
praise the holy booketh of winchester!
So happy to have Ian (gun jesus) this man is gold,, I’ve been following for years now
I wonder if they realized that MP40 magazine would have been too long to allow folding of that buttstock.
I think that the stock might have just barely cleared a mp40 mag, but its hard to say
Cody gun museum is so f*king awesome. I saw ya once but didnt wana interrupt ur tour u were giving. Good stuff!
I love how Ian presented every SMG of the world and still picks up other SMGs
I was quite literally lowering my hand from my mouth, having placed it there to burb. When my attention and direction of motion switched to clicking this video.
I love stupid shit like this so much.
Believe me or not I don't care, I just wanted to share the smile I got from it xD
I love the look of these, and I think they would have been pretty awesome with more R and D, but I could totally see some higher up in the company saying "Why are you trying to reinvent the MP40?" And the engineers just giving up with a big sigh.
I think they look really similar to the "Avenger SMG" Produced by Loyalist Paramilitaries in Ireland (Ulster Defense Association, Ulster Volunteer Force, etc.)
Oh you hafta check out the basement while your there. The military arms library down there is awesome! Another great collection to check out is the King ropes museum in Sheridan.
But why do I find it so aesthetically appealing
"Getting it to mostly work isn't that hard" I believe that describes the Sten
These guns look like they were made in a Metro tunnel
Ah so the Soviets and Germans have essentially perfected open bolt SMG's! Let's make something worse for some reason!
in my subscriptions 1 minute after posting? youtube actually working today i guess
It's a miracle of The Gun Jesus! He has beat the dreaded FB algorithm. All praise to Him!
@@marvindebot3264 susan wouldn’t dare cross gun jesus
I love how so many of these prototype SMGs and pistols look like Khyber Pass custom guns. I wouldn't be surprised to see this hanging on the wall in Darra.
"It's the NATO burp gun!"
MP40: "Am I a joke to you?"
Can we have PPS43?
No, we have PPS43 at home
^PPS43 at home.
Every one and they're Mother was buying uzi's back then i am sure that didn't help ether.
@ one doomed space marine; you are righ there, the Duch army had thousend's of them.
So close to 2M subscribers!
Say what you will about this gun but a folding buttstock that doubles as a front handgrip is actually pretty cool.
I think I saw these 2 SMG's on "The Armourers Bench" a few years ago.
Those look like Star Wars guns. Might need more things glued on tho
I feel like any sub machine gun in the 50s that wasn’t the Uzi, ww2 surplus or a local design like the MAT 49 or Sterling just fell by the wayside.
That's brothers were so many of them around.for cheap
Looks like a great platform to build a Star Wars Blaster!
The charging grooves kinda look like the ones on the welgun
Wow this actually has a telescoping bolt like a UZI.
those wires look like an AK wire stock but didn't even committed to do it
This could totally be a blaster in Star Wars, especially without the magazine
They're very similar looking to the Stirling (which was used for the Stormtrooper blasters)
For some reason the overall look of these appeals to me...
Also they look like something that would make a good base for sfi-fi movie/tv props.
It's really simple looking. The hand guard is very square as well. Just remove the stock and maybe add an energy glow on the sides where the holes to charge the weapon and bam, Sci-fi gun. The simplicity of it is its appeal.
@@daddysempaichan ;-)
It has the functionalistic, raw, unfinished look that all swedish military gear of this era has. That's why you like it I bet.
@@JH-lo9ut Might be
I love it when I'm laying awake at 5:30 already watching Forgotten Weapons and we get a new upload.
An interesting gun for the time, as US military thinking was to replace subguns entirely. Clandestine guerrilla warfare guns were very interesting, however. I always have thought a Mk11 sten using reliable, easy loading Swedish M45 or Beretta smg mags would be close to ideal. Cheap, simple, reliable, reasonable size and weight.
Working or not. Those are AWESOME!!!!!
Common Winchester, Stark was able to build better than this. In a cave. With a box of scraps. 🤔
Thats also a comic book character
Looks very Tatooine like ! 🤔
Jawa weapon of choice.
I really like the look of these and they could work in a sci-fi setting as is or even baetter by adding a scope, fancy mag.
I remember an SF Cover Artist who made his ray guns look like M-3 Grease Guns with a large scope on top. Geoff Who wonders about prophecy?
Those look like star wars blasters,
@@jasonbondar3
And also something from Fallout new vegas.
When the M3 grease gun and the Kpist M45B got a lovechild :)
Aproximately at the same time M.T.Kalashnikov suggested a couple of very interesting experimentsl SMG's to the Soviet army. They were rejected because the army didn't need any SMG at that time. Experimental samoles are stored now in the Artillery museum, Saint Petersburg, Russia.
"So it's one of those ghost guns that don't have a patterned number."
40s and 50s SMG's will forever look the coolest
"Hey boss, should we add a lever to the bolt system so the operator can cock the gun?"
"Nah just throw on s couple of serrations and call it a day."
I'm always a little disappointed that "I'm Ian McCollum and I'm here today" doesn't precede a rap
This looks like something that would exist in fallout
I'm pretty sure I've seen a mod for Fallout 4 that adds homemade blowback firearms that make a little more sense than the pipe guns.
@@Vagabond671 huh i didn't know that possibly cuz i am a console player
@@Guillo78 No worries. Gotta update to PC man. Once I did that, I realized I was missing out on so much stuff. Especially modding!
@@Vagabond671 wuel i don't have the space nor the money and i still like playing on console but great that you lile pc
It does kind of remind me of the combat rifle from 4 but without a fixed stock
I thought Cody was the name of the guy who owns the museum. You live and learn.
To me looks like a bootleg MP40.
Those actually look like some of the most ergonomically comfortable WWII smgs I've ever seen.
they were made after WWII, so they're outclassed by other options
They have a good look, Shame they couldn't make them work.
Indeed
I’m curious, on the previous episode which was also a podcast with the two firearms museum curators, you mentioned that a previous curator was making things up... is this the culprit?
The design is genius. I would like to develop it further. Really easy to make in the garage.
*Pacific time SUCKS*
*- Brought to you by the EST gang*
With it being Winchester I half expected the stock to activate some lever action system
My guess is that Winchester was going for a smg refined enough to be used by NATO militaries, but also cheap enough to be used by pro-NATO partisans.
It is a subgun, but it LOOKS VERY similar to Melvin Johnsons proposed PDW update to the M1 carbine.
"A nice, solid folding wire stock" said Ian never ever.
Whoevver dislikes this has a special place in hell reserved for them
Are you actually Jewish?
@@LRBeforeTheInternet 100% Ashkenazi baby!!!!!!
@@hyenanerdwallet4720 Why would you be threatening someone with "hell" then? That's not a part of your religion.
@@LRBeforeTheInternet wow I am not gonna lower myself to ur level for a conversation with ur worthless mind so goodbye. Shalom
@@hyenanerdwallet4720 I'm sorry, but my "level" doesn't consist of threatening strangers with eternal damnation for having a differing opinion, so I think you're pretty low already, kid. LOL :)
Yes. My daily fix of knowledge
Get it now before big Tech sensors it!
Another really cool open bolt sub machine gun in a time where open bolts were all the rage. Thanks Ian for another interesting video!
Interesting. Great job Ian and thanks. God bless all here.
Ian is soooo close to 2m subs!
Still waiting for the Marlin 1881, 88, 89 and the other lever actions 😉
Looks like an MP40, Grease Gun, and CZ Scorpion all had a baby.... Just saying
I couldn't help but notice the notches on the bolt.
Is that the rearward assist?
I was thinking the same thing. Surprised it wasn't acknowledged
Ahhhhhh... Now we know why the Stormtrooper's used the Sterlings instead of the Winchesters for their Blasters a long time ago, in a Galaxy far, far away! 😆
I suppose that the U.S. Armies attitude towards 9mm weapons at the time didn’t help this SMG’s prospects any, if your trying to develop and sell a military weapon it does help if your own military shows an interest.
One of the things Ian missed is the role of US Military Aid programs in the 1950s and 1960s. When a block of aid is given to a government it is to be spent purchasing US produced arms. In the 1950s I am not sure any new production SMGs were US made. So it made sense for Winchester to look into the market.
2:10 Ian getting sidetracked by the peculiarities and realizing he have to make the rest of the video.
"Mom can I have Walther MPL?"
"We have Walther MPL at home."
MPL at home:
These look glued together from cut furniture and IKEA parts
It's not the best choice, it's Spacer's Choice.
I guess blue gloves says. that no shooting video tomorrow with them at least.
Down on the second floor? :) And really cool stuff is buried deep on ground floor.
It looks sci-fi, but like old school grunge sci-fi.
Like street level Judge Dred or Blade Runner, maybe Terminator? Its been a while since I've seen them so maybe they're not exactly what I'm going for. (not starwars though.)
Idk how to explain it, but it just has this vibe. Especially the earlier version.
If someone else has a better example I'd be glad to hear it. It's almost bugging me that I can't pin it down lol.
Gives me polish lighting gun vibs.
foldable buttstock also as frontgrip *+100*
no proper charging handle *-100000*
Huh, they kinda look like Johnny’s gun from Cyberpunk 2077...
Still much more sophisticated than the $15 M3 Grease Guns
The Grease gun is leaps and bounds better than this gun.
Pretty sure that in the previous 670 comments, someone's already mentioned how these can be props from a Star Wars movie/series (i.e. The Mandalorian), but in case it hasn't been mentioned, here you go - "Those look like guns from a Star Wars movie/series."
Gee ww2 has been over for ten years. There’s millions of stens mp40s beretta smgs, every other German smg laying in stock piles
Winchester “let’s build a pos sub gun” to sell to nobody.
Great use of resources. Get business model.
Part of the Occupation/De-nazification policy stated that Germany could not profit from the war - specifically sales of surplus goods (also some bigger economic concerns of war overproduction for the allies) , so most of it was scrapped. This leads to Finland having a batch of Stahlhelms new-made in 1955, and the Czechs making and marketing new made K-98s through the rest of the 40's
@@markbecht1420 I wasn’t talking about the Germans having a stock pile I was talking about the French and the British and the victors captured all the weaponry which somehow if it was supposed to be destroyed ended up in the middle east Africa in Southeast Asia
So they managed to screw a design so simple that many people and resistance movements managed to manufacture functioning samples in their box. Chose the wrong magazine, Made a SMG difficult to cock thanks to the absence of the charging handle, made two serrations in front of the bolt to try cocking it, but didn't manage to make a real telescopic bolt.
"interesting".
They were handmade so they were... MANufactured