To unlock the 5 extra kilowatts from the pod filter, you first have to paint front brake calipers red, it's written in the fine print. I heard it on the internet somewhere 🤔
I would love to see you push back on K&N on this. That kit was supposedly made just for that car, and they "guarantee" a horsepower increase. I'd love to see what they have to say.
there was no fan in front of the cars when they ran on dyno, they were just gulping hot engine air, and Moog had the genius idea to place the air intake BEHIND the engine (which actually adds restriction xD )
This test was complete garbage. Should have tested before and after, same day, same dyno. These guys are only making money from this shit, the quality of this channel has gone down the drain in the recent years.
It settles almost nothing. If you go look at a factory bike, anything modern to in the last 15+ years. Take the factory paper filter out and get a Sprint air filter (mind you this is a TRACK only filter and actually filters almost nothing) and you will in fact gain horse power, that you can measure on a dyno. Chris Moore at Moore Mafia has videos up showing it. However, as I mentioned, they filter near on nothing, so naturally, its highly ill advised to daily drive/ride something with a filter like this, and may even be illegal in some places.
@@crisnmaryfam7344 I am 62. Back in 1981 I had Holden hj show van. Running a 202 with yella terra head, 350 Holley. Pacemakers.. I drove from Sydney to Newcastle, with air cleaner on. Then back with air cleaner off.. No difference in Performance..
would have been good to see the old air filter back on and a retest of the swift. just to make sure the drop in power was real and wasnt some odd dyno issue
@@martin1649 17''s come as standart on the swift sport so am pretty shure its meant to run 17 inch wheels tire size ofcourse can vary slightly but idk those sizes for the swift atleast seem legit
Absolutely. Especially marty's cheap wheels, which has a lot of additional weight further out compared to the old wheels. Put the old wheels back on, and he might have a marginal gain.
I've been a Journeyman tech for 10 years now and as most people have pointed out there are many many things that contribute to power loss when putting on "Cold air intakes". But the one thing that always seems to bother me, and i know it shouldn't, is no one likes to talk about how 90% of Factory intakes ARE COLD AIR INTAKES. Almost every car draws its air from either the grill or the fender from factory. I mean think about it for one moment people, you dont need a cold air intake because you already have one! If it was as easy as simply changing a pipe and a filter to gain HP the Manufactureres would do it instantly! Anyways thats my rant for the day. As always, keep it up guys your videos always make me happy and put a smile on my face. Good job
Totally! The Suzuki had air ducted straight into the stock filter so the engine could only suck it in through that, making sure all the air comes from the outside. This "fancy" K&N setup just has a pipe exiting near the filter, so whatever air trickles up there from the outside is mixed up with the heat from the engine. Such a half-assed solution from a supposed reputable brand. Shame.
It’s kind of hard to know for sure what was going on unless you put the stock air box and filter back on and do a dyno run the same day to see if there were any other variables involved
@@MrMarty77 They've done this before on a much older video, including swapping back on the same day. The result was the same. Pod filters suck, K&N especially. They're made for suckers who don't understand how airflow and intakes work.
"pod" open filters in an engine bay is the worst thing you can do to a car. Especially when it sits directly over a hot engine. $500 for that? Moog got screwed.
It'd be awesome to see: The maximum power you can gain with a dyno tune using the STOCK intake VS. The max with a dyno tune using an AFTERMARKET intake. I feel like this could be the scenario that they're actually useful
On some of the Peugeot models, to safely tune them without adding the expense of an aftermarket ecu, you got to remove and open up the ecu and solder some wires, download the info on the ecu, adjust some tables, then flash it back, reinstall etc...its a bit of a mission especially on a petrol engine where gains would be minimal and Rodney lurks waiting for overzealous tuning
Would be interesting to see a k&n panel filter in the stock air box… maybe look at cold air feeding to the air box with some added intake / porting with the ducting
@@winha1435 yeah, one of many drawbacks of measuring power at the wheels only, you're never sure what caused the power drop, is it the engine or something else.
I'm pretty confident the exhaust is what kills the power, 76mm exhaust is way too big for that engine and power level. Engines don't like backpressure but you need to balance flow and velocity, too much flow will hurt velocity
Dropping pod filter without any shielding on top of the exhaust manifold in the back of the engine bay. I can only imagine how crazy the intake air temperature was.
I thought this too, but that's actually the intake manifold. The exhaust is located on the front, you can see the heat shield in the overhead shot. Now, that said. I still wouldn't want to be drawing my air from next to the engine bay.
I agree. Seems reasonable that the cup2 tires has higher rolling resistance than the stock tires. I dont think that the exhausts decrease power, the air filters may but it should be 1-2kW
Yes! Plus I'm pretty sure the dyno works by knowing torque and doing maths to give a power figure. Bigger wheels = less torque = less power number on dyno, even if engine horsepower increased.
Mainline dyno’s have definitely thrown us as a part manufacturer for a loop in the past. They’re very strict in some ways, and definitely could be the problem. It would have been useful to do the test in the same day. But given the location of that filter and the way a dyno operates I suspect the intake air temp has significantly changed, which can not only result in natural performance loss but also can trigger the calibration to significantly lower power in order to avoid knock.
The OEM intakes are usually pretty sophisticated tuned-length affairs, as well as heat shielded. If you try swapping the filter with a panel filter, you will might see a small change if there is a significant enough restriction in the filter (there probably isn't). The only real reason to do a pod filter is if you're modifying enough of your engine bay that it is the only practical option.
So true. I swapped out the stock panel filter with a K&N panel filter in my BA Falcon back in the day, and got a notable gain in power. I then removed the intake snorkel part leading to the airbox, which gave a bigger opening into the airbox to get more air, and got more gains. The snorkel is a restrictive part. I've removed this snorkel to the airbox on numerous cars, and always made gains. There's something to be said about the research gone into the inlet from the airbox to the motor, and removing it can have a negative effect. Every time I've removed the snorkel only, not only have I gained some power, I've also gained intake noise. I do believe they make these snorkels like this to reduce noise emissions, with the downside of robbing some power. My 3 cents.
@SirDaffyD correct... I once owned a 1.4 8v Fiat Punto, swapped the airbox snorkel from its hot intake that went to a blanked off section of the grille that was covered in painted cardboard (Yes, cardboard) Took that out, replaced the snorkel with a cold feed tube, cut a section in the grille so it pointed directly into a windpath... Very noticeable difference... minor but noticeable.
@@SirDaffyDof course, some cars have a large portion of plastic in the fender that the intake is attached to. It's an enclosure of a bunch of baffles and angles that the air has to pass through, quiets things down. Stock intakes, even without that are definitely designed to cut down on engine noises.
One thing I'd be interested to know - what's the surface area of the pod filter, compared to the stock panel filter. Like if you were to cut the pod open and lay the filter element flat, I wonder if it would have a smaller or greater surface area of filtration? If that's not the reason, surely the terrible mounting location would have a lot to do with the losses. Pretty devastating result considering how much it cost!
That would be incredibly hard to compare. The filter medium is just so different that it wouldn't really matter. A better comparison would probably be how much effort it takes to pull air in through it, and how much particle matter is in the air post filtration. But you'd need a proper lab to be able to test that. Perhaps it would be an interesting topic for an LTT video?
Im in the uk and i used to like induction filters for the noise when i was younger, but since i've got a bit older and a bit smarter, now i keep the standard air box, chop any fins inside the box to make it as smooth as possible, replace the ribbed intake hose with a smooth one and replace the panel filter with a better flowing filter, my preference is a company called 'green' and you keep the same set up as your car manufacturer spend ££££'s researching and developing, increase the sound a bit, help the flow of air a little bit and its really cheap to do. I also noticed in my time that on smaller not very powerful engines, you lose low down torque by using an open/induction filter compared to a standard airbox, so you make your already slow accelerating car even slower off the mark.
I'm a mechanical engineer who worked (past tense) in the automotive aftermarket, so I might have some insight. Here's how it probably went. A salesman or reseller somewhere told the K&N engineering team that they needed an intake kit for the Swift to fill out the K&N sales catalog, but the engineering team were probably given little (or no) access to an actual Suzuki Swift for testing, so they gave it a good guess, created a kit using parts that K&N already had, and were forced to move on to the next project.
As someone working in RnD, this is pretty accurate on how most of the engineering is done in big companies. Not for all products but certainly Swift's kit is an example. Add on top of that misunderstood engineering notes that get overpromised by the marketing and sales. Another case might be that they know it loses power but that wouldn't make sense for a product so they will look for a corner case or additional modifications to justify this filter.
It's such a complex issue, but over the years (and thanks to your videos as well!), I think it just comes down to these small cc NA engines being engineered to be incredibly efficient by the manufacturer. Decreased restriction/pressure/velocity in the intake and exhaust probably only benefits FI setups. And in modern vehicles most likely only with tuning in any case.
The issue for Moog is probably in part the location of the induction kit, you would do better to replace the stock filter with a K&N panel filter in the stock airbox. Also as you mentioned tuning, that is what is needed to take full advantage of a full exhaust system and an intake change, a stock ECU will try it's best to make adjustments to run the engine in pre determined values.
I agree with replacing just the stock panel filter with a K&N panel filter. I've just this mod to a few intakes, and always made gains. So much R&D goes into designing the intake, that totally replacing it will almost always have a negative effect, unless the ecu is retuned to that intake. Saying that, I've removed the snorkel on the intake side of many airboxes, and made gains due to where the snorkel enters the airbox being bigger than the hole where the air enters the snorkel. I've always gained more intake noise doing this also.
Hey, i've been watching your guy's channel since i was a kid, i'm 24 now and still enjoy watching everything you do here, thank you so much, i appreciate you Marty and Moog very much
filter right on most maf's makes them swirl instead of straight sections metering right, also stock box was getting air from a different place not back of engine bay, just some stuff to try
Here to see if the old PVC intake I did back in the day on my first car was killing it or not Edit- after watching, glad we only spent $10 instead of $350 for that car 😂😂
it only makes less power if the car is otherwise stock. if you tune the ecu by sending it to a company itll fix the top end of the rpm band from running lean and losing power. the ecu can only tolerate 5-10% extra air than it expects before running out of injector pressure to keep up with the high intake volume.
Deffinetely has an effect. I forget the weight difference from stock but heavier tires will reduce appearent power as well since tyno runs are a dynamic test.
When it comes to small changes like a air filter change they need to be tested on a engine Dynomometer in a controlled environment. Chassis dynos just aren't precise enough due to temp, humidity, dew point and barometric pressure, tire pressure, transmission temperature ect ect which effects every parameter of a Dyno run.
Your pod filter was mounted above the engine so it pulled in warmer / less dense air. Your stock filter box has longer, thinner pipes - that helps increase the air velocity going in. Your stock box also has a cold air duct going to the front of the car.
Position of the MAF is key. OE airbox ensures best reading of airflow across the sensor. Look at the bellmouths used on ITB setups, a good aftermarket intake has similar design incorporated to keep the MAF reading accurately.
K&N drop in air filter for the swift is a much better option. You still maintain the cold air intake with better air flow than the pod inhaling hot air with its positioning.
You mean the paper filter itself? That doesn't make it a "cold air intake." K&N is typically pretty mid. They just have name recognition and a cool logo so people just assume they're good. An example of a quality CAI would be the Rotofab intakes for the 6th gen Camaro
The air filter was right next to the hot exhaust. The original air box protected the filter from drawing in the hot air. If you used part of the old air box to protect it from the warm air I'm sure you will see the the numbers back to stock or a tiny bit higher.
A K&N drop in panel filter with the stock intake system will give you the small gains you're looking for, those full induction kits very rarely work. Over the years I've only ever managed to get an increase in power on 2 cars, one was a 2.0L MX5 and the other was a Lancia Delta, both N/A cars, all the rest sounded fantastic but ultimately caused a drop in horses.
@@lukebarnes8097 peugeot arent the underdog. Just different class of car really. Look at suzukis WRC non existent win compared to the astounding 13 championships PSA have won
I think you should have measured them with the stock exhaust and intake in the same conditions (i.e. same day, same (probably higher roll resistance + weight) wheel/tire combo). Also I believe modern cars usually take some time to 'cope' with the changed hardware. I believe these mods overall should have resulted in no power change at all under the right conditions.
Yeah this is left so unresolved not testing with the stock A/F back to back - I guess there is logistics involved in it not being an easy thing to swap in and out that makes that unfeasible.
@@craigmonty I'd think it's quite easy in the Swift at least (except for the exhaust). The Peugeot seems a little more challenging, but this could be done in between running the other car.
Rolling resistance makes a difference. This should have been factored in by changing back to the tires used on the first dyno test. After that air temperature could also factor. With the minor incremental claims of increased power these mods advertise, these two fundamental conditions make a difference, from all I have read. Tuning as well could be a factor even though a CEL doesn’t appear. Fun video regardless.
Literally came here to say this. The ECU needs to be tuned for the intake and exhaust. The factory ECU fuel and ignition tables are not tuned or adaptive enough to take advantage of the extra air flow.
@@24k__J K&N in this situation are incorrect, as the video pointed out. That's because each ECU fuel and ignition tables are defined differently. So while there may be an overwhelming majority of stock ECU mappings for various cars that can take advantage of the K&N intake, there are other vehicles whose ECU mappings can not. Moral of the story here is the manufacturers claims are not always correct. Remember, they are a business looking to make money. They make a decent product. In the case of the Suzuki, it's ECU was mapped for airflow from the factory airbox. Not an aftermarket intake. Remapping the ECU will allow the car to take advantage of the K&N. Which was my original point.
Someone in the comments called it, a comparison of acceleration times on a track before and after the mods would be interesting to see, cause that's what it's all about. A engine dynamometer is an awesome tuning tool, but it's the on tarmac results that will count here.
I think the dyno is the variable and maybe even the day itself. If you want to do a test with the only variable being the filters; I think it would show more realistic resuts if you dyno with stock filters, and then dyno with aftermarket ones, all in the same day on the same dyno.
When Moog took the stock intake off, he removed the snorkel that pulls air from the front of the car, and by putting the air filter where he did, he is now pulling air from the engine bay. Simply put, he went from cooler air, to pulling hot air which is thinner...so basically now you are pulling less air than you were with the stock setup. Pod filters are designed to allow for more air flow through them, but if the air is is thinner where the filter is, it will cause a decrease in power. Ways to eliminate the loss in power would be to either have a box that closes the filter off from the engine air (with some opening to allow fresh air in) or to run a longer air tube with the filter on the end of it, placing the filter near the front/bottom of the car where the air will be colder and therefor denser.
Why did I have to dig so far down the list to find this comment? THIS. How is this not what everyone is talking about? I have chuckled at MANY a "hot air intake" mod I've seen installed on people's cars. DON'T DO IT.
@@troyam6607Not really, that thing is just basically just a dryer hose that is supposed to bring air from the front, but the system isn't sealed so the pod filter is still just pulling in hot engine compartment air. Complete waste of money
Fun series :) As others have already mentioned, I believe its the heavier wheel/tire combo that caused at least some of the loss. Maybe next time bring 2 of the old wheels/tires and try installing those (on the front of course) to see if it would have made a difference.
No. It's the pod filter. This isn't the first time they've tested this, and this is also well known amongst the educated people in the car community. Pod filters, and K&N filters suck, and are aimed at suckers who don't know better.
you got to use the same dyno for comparison, or do back to back runs on the same dyno making the mods. Otherwise its not the same comparison. The amount of settings of the dyno that could change the calculated output just make it too hard to compare reasonably especially if the gains/losses are so small.
Exactly, not only that, it's the Dyno calibration that could be say 2% different, test needed to be performed on same dyno to give a definitive comparison, though it's obvious the banana machine has lost some power, the silver french shitbox probably could be making the same power as it did before
This is actually really good video. It just shows that not everything goes your way. Very keen to see detailed explanation to why soo much power was lost.
Really like this episode as I have been down this path with my old Ignis Sport. Lost power with a K&N pod filter. Put back the stock box with a drop in K&N filter and gained back the power. Dont understand the engineering behind this, but I just named it Suzuki sorcery and moved on.
You gotta get it tuned to match the new exhuast and intake. Mods add power but sometimes need a tune to bring them to their full potential. It throws the air fuel mix off
Did the ECUs get a full reset and enough miles to approve whatever emission controls which may be in place? California resident so ECUS and emissions is on the mind..
The Swift also has different wheels and tires now. They are heavier than what was there before. This can skew your dyno results. So even if the car makes a little less power, it will still be faster on track most likely since it will have a ton more grip.
im not a mechanical engineer either but you have put the swift air filter near the engine and it consume the heat, better to be down with some stainless steel pipes or the stock filter with a big air scoop. +bonus a sprint booster will be a good idea. If you want extra power you have to remove or uptade catalytic converter and headers and then all together will work and you will see some results.
you guys should've done 0-60 tests on track before and after mods, just to be sure there isn't anything finnicky about that dyno calibration (specially since it's been weeks since the first test)
A dyno works by measuring the power output at the rollers, by changing wheel sizes you changed the gear ratio to the rollers skewing the results. Swapping back to the stock wheel/tyre setup should give you more comparable power numbers to the first dyno results.
Not if you do it according to the specs. The outside diameter stays the same when you change wheels. If you go from 16 to 17" wheels for instance, the sidewall becomes lower. When a rim manufacturer produces a rim they'll write in the datasheet which rubber to use for your specific car.
The original box was enclosed and had a shape that would make air flow in a way the engine likes better. Also, the enclosure protects from the heat of the engine/exhaust. High temperature air makes the combustion worse resulting in lower hp. If you put that pod filter and somehow isolate the rest of the intake, it's probably still not gonna flow as good as the original intake but probably won't lose that much power.
Swift lost like %8 more than the 206. The pug was marginally worse. Swftt noticeable loss. Just shows, spending thousands thousands is not always the answer!
Had this same kind of thing happen to a buddy's lancer years ago, put the filter right on the mass air. It made great intake noises but tanked his low end and full economy. Then added a foot or two (still made intake noises) and the car was preforming much better.
The best bang for the buck is to modify the existing airbox. Remove the silencer and figure out a clean way to fill the hole. Add reflective heat tape/wrap to the airbox to reduce heat soak. Then get a high flow panel filter to drop in.
Remember the tyres and wheels are different on the cars. That'll change the power figure especially if they're way grippier. Tyres get very hot on dynos!
@@jackrichards1863 it's not essential, of the tune was a bit fat stock (which they pretty much all tend to be), opening up intake and exhaust can improve volumetric efficiency and give some small gains. Bigger gains can be achieved with tuning.
@@shayispunkish pretty much. Still those efficiencies are pretty clean so they should be able to capitalize on the change. Very hard to beat a factory assembly now I'm the performer cars like the Sport or Peugot, or the hot Golf is hard to improve on those hot models
@@fohatadri U can bolt on a K&N air filter no problems. It will change the induction sound making you think it is better but there will be no objective improvements as the ECU doesnt know what to do with the increased airflow. If anything it panics and cuts power for safety as it gets confused. U can put it on and it wont do any harm but u will not get a true performance benefit until u turn your car. Most people add filter, then exhaust, headers etc. then when u have them all bolted on that you are going to get then u go for a tune to keep costs down (tune after each bolt on is too costly). Then u will get the combined benefits of all the breathing mods.
A big reason you could have lost power with the K&N intake is because it is acting as a short RAM intake. A short RAM intake pulls air from inside the engine bay, where there is TONS of heat, especially where that K&N kit is located right above the exhaust that reaches around 2k degrees internally. If you were to move the air filter to pull air from the outside of the car, known as a cold air intake kit, you would definitely gain some power back. If you combo a true cold air intake kit with a tune, you should definitely get more power. I hope this info treats you well and am looking forward to a re-test with these recommendations. Cheers guys, keep up the good work!
K&N filters are shit. They have fewer pleats, which means less airflow, their material is thinner, and instead they soak them in oil to try to compensate for the shitty filter. Want a good filter? Pick something with a lot of pleats, and thick material. The pleats will let it flow better, the thicker material will filter more.
It's because in both cases, the MAF sensor scaling needs to be retuned for the new tube and the rest of the map adjusted for the change in air volume. If the exhaust are full systems (not just catbacks) same applies to the exhausts. Another factor is that the factory intake is pulling cold air from the front of the car but the new ones pull warm air from the engine bay.
As long as the maf sensor can see the extra air flow and the iat sees it's cooler, the ECU should raise fuel trims accordingly. You've got a bout 20% injector duty cycle as headroom remember 👍
@@jossdauncey4986 This is the right answer. For your typical non-turbo injection engine (not mechanical injection), the factory tables have more than enough headroom to cope with the negligible extra airflow from a fart can and pod filter. If you run full exhaust with headers and decat you will see gains with a tune, but even that should run better than stock with no remap.
Shouldnt y re-tune or re-map the ecu after these modifications? Y add more air and exhaust fumes leave more easily. The character of the car as we say in Greece changes. Without the proper ecu program u won't see any improvement no matter how many money you spend. A friend of mine has a Suzuki swift sport which has a full exhaust system with a racing catalytic converter, doesn't have a cold air filter. With the ecu program makes 137hp to the wheels
It makes sense to do a remap of the ecu, also with more fuel and air coming in a new set of sparkplugs properly gapped can make a big difference, may be even more with some colder ones. Bigger injectors, bigger throttle body, if you do cams you pass the threshold of a stand alone ecu depending on make and model. The 206 I would engine swap before going that far. The swift need a turbo to get any serious gain in power. Stage 3 tune without a turbo can lead up to 150bhp. With a modest turbo setup 190 for a daily driver is easy to achieve but you are thousands of dollars in it at that point.
I like cars but im a bit more of a bike dude. We tuned a yamaha xtx660 last week and it has an open filter, an exhaust ,a reprofile camshaft and a bit of handmade porting at the head (stock piston). It had its ecu tuned by a proper man and now makes 62whp. Months ago we turned a different xtx660 and it had everything from a high compression piston to a Very big camshaft with big throttle body BUT he wanted to go to a different tuner so it made 68whp and it keeps failing the sparks plugs (bad tune). With the proper tune it should make over 75++ whp. That's im trying to say. Every thing is the ecu
@@atrem7942 Yes but the point of this series is "is the expensive after market modifications worth it or can y do it cheaper with a bit of your knowledge and cheap stuff?" Of course big name brands are better (although most of your money goes to the name of the brand. For an example y pay double the money for a K&N filter but y can find an equally good quality filter for the half price) but the thing im trying to say throwing all these stuff on the engine won't do anything without a proper ecu program
@john013 john013 i literally start with saying a ecu remap makes sense, why are you making it look like, I am saying something else. I don't even mention any big brands names. For most people it is about the driving experience exhaust making the engine roar. Intake suction sound same thing. In their mind they think it makes the car go faster and that is all they want. Reality proofs no real gains are had unless you remap the ecu to make sense of the bigger volume of air and fuel coming in and the exhaust having less back pressure. more then the real gain of torque or horse power the sound experience is all they get certainly those people who only fit a cold air intake and exhaust.
Ofc u will loose power with the Suzuki, the pod filter is sucking in hot air which is less dense because it’s placed on top of the engine with no heat shield, also the car isn’t moving so there is no cold air coming through the pipe infront of the pod filter to feed it with cool air, and on top of that u should get a tune when u install an exhaust and an intake because the air to fuel ratios will be different and won’t work well with the stock tune
When you had the expert there on the podfilters, het said that having it on top of the block would result in hp loss and you should construct a cold airintake. So no surprises. If you want to go for weightredu tion after ditching all the mats, rear seat and rest of the interior, throw dry ice in the footwell, let it evaporate, take a hammer and brake the tar and remove it. Then put primer on the bare metal.
congrats MCM , you have just discovered what engineers know about pod filters ... THEY ARE TRASH !! Also congratulations for showing the findings which is not good for sponsorship but a good proof to your watchers that you have integrity !
I had the exact same thing happen to me. I just restored a 1983 VT500C Honda Shadow, yes I know it's a motorcycle, but it's an internal combustion engine just the same. The previous owner had removed the air box and put in pod filters, after hours of research I found out that I had to change my carb jets up two sizes to account for the extra air flow. The same is happening with both of your cars. You changed the filters but you didn't change the tune on the engine. Unless you can reprogram the computer to make up for the increased air flow you will never make more power. A drop in K&N filter in the stock air box may help a bit, but again, unless you retune the engine you will see very little gains going that route.
I work as a calibration engineer in the automotive industry (we do essentially what Scotty does when they install a Haltech and he puts all the numbers into the maps and tables but our ECUs are from Bosch, Denso, Delphi etc). I've worked at a motorcycle oem before and now I work with diesel engines that have been converted to hydrogen combustion. I assume that the ECU of the Swift works pretty similar to what I've seen on the motorcycles and how I think haltech ECUs work as well (I have never worked with one before). It's a lambda=1 concept, which means that you open the throttle blade according to a accelerator input (ride by wire, or actual wire, doesn't matter) and then the ECU squirts the fuel into the port according to the measured Air Mass and the defined lambda (somewhere between 0.95 and 1.10, in stationary load points). So in theory if everything (temperature in dyno room, humidity and ambient pressure) is the same on both days and you install a "less restrictive" air filter you'd have less pressure drop at the filter element (which is very very small anyways on clean, stock intake systems). So with less pressure drop at the filter element you have theoretically more Air mass jammed into the engine and for the same "lambda setpoint" at full throttle the ECU would inject more fuel and thus generating more power. However, we are talking very minimal differences (think of the leaf blower in the turbo chargers mythbasted video). So even if you could measure a small increased AirMass and the ECU would inject more fuel you could probably not even measure it at the wheels due to the dyno tolerances. However you do suck in hot air directly over the engine instead of ambient temperature which probably negates all the theoretical wins you could get earlier and you probably lose actualy measurable power by removing the intake manifold that's most likely tuned to produce a certain HP at a certain rpm. In theory shorter intake manifolds yield in power higher up in the rev-band and longer more in the middle (that's why some N/A cars have switchable air paths). Which length and diameter leads to which increases at which rev point is very scientifical and I wouldn't know how to calculate that. It's safe to assume though that it very much depends on the engine parameters and for all we know the "sweet spot" of this K&N manifold might be at rpms way beyond the rev limiter of this little car, or much lower. Have you plotted the power curves on top of each other for every run? Would be interesting to analyze. You can lose power with the warmer intake temperature, the (I assume) "untuned" intake dimensions, dyno tolerances, weather conditions that specific day...oh and does it have a knock control? Atmospheric pressure and temperature influences the knock tendency on petrol cars as well, so maybe the knock controller dialed the ignition back a little, that's probably a much bigger factor than anything else.
For my Swift Sport the best air intake was Simota with "carbon" cover. It increased the stock power by 5hp. No oil on it so it doesn't foul the maf reading as well and grabs the air from directly in front of the cars bonnet (you can cut the bonnets gasket for better airflow in that part).
@Absolute Mad Chad autocorrection hahah. It was meant to say Simota of course. And it's not a lie, I did 4 Dyno tests. Stock was 126bhp, air filter 131bhp, with full custom exhaust 136bhp and remap brought it to 142bhp.
-Peugeot recipe for power- Work some Venturi effect by going two steps up (one at a time) on the intake it will provide aceleration of the laminar flow and keep the readings right. The new exhaust size is too far away from the log manifold, its got to be right from the log to the 3 incher. Now the thing that really makes it go, Timing... You can throw almost 10 degrees of advance at it, just keep it very rich to be on the safe side. ( Those engine are undertuned for safety, they are sold in some markets that are not worried about fuel standards)
I've ran into the same thing with most all aftermarket "cold air intakes". However I have felt improvement over a K&N stock filter replacement over a paper element and with 200k on that K&N cleaning it whenever it needs and MAF sensor cleaner handy it's the only way I roll.
Marty & Moog, The sub compact and micro cars are specifically designed and engineered for efficiency which is why most aftermarket products do not bring the expected improvements at the stock level. Of course power adders will of course develop more power, but then they are no longer stock.🤙
Good quality pod filters are fantastic when used in the correct application. Turbo setups with a constant stream of fresh air and closed intake systems that utilise a pod filter will yield good results.
The k&n intake for my car came with a heat shield to block excess engine heat. I get around 4-5 more whp after install however if the car is idling for an extended period the air temperature becomes so high that all the gained power from the intake is lost until it cools back down. The placement of the intake is extremely important as placing it closer to hot engine components like exhaust headers can make you lose power even with proper airflow.
A lot of cars will not have self-learning ECU's, and when you just throw more air at them, they'll struggle with matching up the AFR and start to attempt compensating for reading what it perceives as wrong values and end up cutting power because it thinks it's too lean etc. Some cars come with self-learning ones that you just need to leave the battery off of for an hour or so, then teach it the injector profiles etc through driving it again after the reset and have a lot of sudden stops from choking out the engine as it's learning. Evo 7 to 9 ecu's are known to be such ECU's that you can teach and also tune by connecting to, but for many folks it's better to pick the latter and actually head to a proper tuning shop to get dyno-run tuning done.
Hi, mechanical engineer here. I could throw theories about what's going on but to be honest you should do what every engineer does, modify and log variables, not just engine power. Grab a laptop and log the ecu, especially these parameters : engine load, iat, mass flow and pressure at the manifold. Do this with the stock intake and the pod filter and you should tell right way what's the problem. If I could bet, the iat is probably higher with the pod filter, which with the same pressure at the manifold, reduces air mass, reducing power. Simple equation: pv=mrt
For the Peugeot the expanded exhaust piping will have the impact of lowering exhaust velocity, this directly impacts the scavenging effect, which directly impacts the air fuel ratio (aka. power). Going from a 2.0 inch pipe to a 2.25 inch pipe would have minimal negative effects in the lower RPM range while giving a bit more breathing room for higher RPMs. Going from 2.0 inch to 3.0 inch (without large displacement, a turbo or supercharger) will result in a loss of power. Dale covered the basics of this on MCM2 2 weeks ago. As per the Peugeot intake, I would wrap every joint/connection with tape, just to make sure there are no leaks, as any air leaks past the air metering device will have a negative impact on the air fuel ratio. The ECU is expecting a certain amount of metered air, but the reading via the oxygen sensor is different (ie. there is more air present than expected), which the ECU will react by changing the amount of fuel being delivered - thereby taking the engine outside of it's tune operating zone. More air and more fuel is only good if it can be leveraged (ie. it is tuned for that volume), otherwise it is wasted. Along with that, the Peugeot (being much older and likely not maintained) should get new spark plugs at a minimum. If the existing ones are high on the time usage, they will also be out of their efficiency range. Per the Swift intake... The filter element placement is really poor. If possible, I would rotate it to be away being directly over the engine, then try to get/make some ducting that would channel air from the front of the vehicle directly to the air filter. That would help to mitigate the negative impacts that intake clearly has.
I feel like an "out of the bin" opportunity was missed 😂
Yes I like that call. Or should have had a purity box
hahaha yes mate
just playing the "in the bin" clip backwards would have done it for me
@@Sam-lr9oi bin the in😂😂
It's a fake out
Of course Marty lost power. He got rid of his water cooled air filter.
This deserves a pin😂
🤣
your actually not wrong lol..
I just started to watch, thanks for the spoiler
😂
To unlock the 5 extra kilowatts from the pod filter, you first have to paint front brake calipers red, it's written in the fine print. I heard it on the internet somewhere 🤔
😂
Also adding some HKS, Greddy and Haltech stickers adds a further 10hp.
😂
Don't be fooled by the fancy looking pod filter. The real gain comes from the sticker included in the package. 😛
Worked even better if u have drum brakes and paint them red 🤯
I would love to see you push back on K&N on this. That kit was supposedly made just for that car, and they "guarantee" a horsepower increase. I'd love to see what they have to say.
Agreed
As if they need that headache
Somewhere in the fine print it probably says the car has to be tuned
there was no fan in front of the cars when they ran on dyno, they were just gulping hot engine air, and Moog had the genius idea to place the air intake BEHIND the engine (which actually adds restriction xD )
@@armoule8596 there is the big blue box @ 2:27
put back the stock filters and do a dyno run again, would love to see the results
Exactly in my opinion it's only fair if you've done a test before and after on the same day, anything could've changed in the time between the dynos
@@AdxmTS was ganna say that different dyno days makes a difference/ different dynos
This test was complete garbage. Should have tested before and after, same day, same dyno. These guys are only making money from this shit, the quality of this channel has gone down the drain in the recent years.
That settles it. Everyone complaining about the price of the K&N air filter had a valid point 😂
They are a Con..
It settles almost nothing. If you go look at a factory bike, anything modern to in the last 15+ years. Take the factory paper filter out and get a Sprint air filter (mind you this is a TRACK only filter and actually filters almost nothing) and you will in fact gain horse power, that you can measure on a dyno. Chris Moore at Moore Mafia has videos up showing it. However, as I mentioned, they filter near on nothing, so naturally, its highly ill advised to daily drive/ride something with a filter like this, and may even be illegal in some places.
@@crisnmaryfam7344 I am 62. Back in 1981 I had Holden hj show van. Running a 202 with yella terra head, 350 Holley. Pacemakers..
I drove from Sydney to Newcastle, with air cleaner on. Then back with air cleaner off..
No difference in Performance..
@@crisnmaryfam7344 yes it is illegal to put a pod filter on your car in most states..
Why no dyno run in the same session with the original intakes back on ?
would have been good to see the old air filter back on and a retest of the swift. just to make sure the drop in power was real and wasnt some odd dyno issue
That and isolate the problem being the new muffler or the new intake
@@williambartholomew5680 or the bigger wheels
@@4bidn1 17"s are too big for these two anyway.. both would perform better on smaller wheels BUT probably no other option if you want to run Cup 2s..
Exactly what I thought, I thought they were going to.
@@martin1649 17''s come as standart on the swift sport so am pretty shure its meant to run 17 inch wheels tire size ofcourse can vary slightly but idk those sizes for the swift atleast seem legit
My guess is the different wheels contribute to power change/loss. More friction with grippier tyres, larger tyre circumference is a power killer.
yep should have run them up with same wheels/tires as last time
Absolutely. Especially marty's cheap wheels, which has a lot of additional weight further out compared to the old wheels. Put the old wheels back on, and he might have a marginal gain.
Yeah but aren’t the newer wheels lighter?
I agree
This is exactly where Scotty’s sage help is needed… he is a diagnostic wizard and makes an awful lot of sense every single time.
If he wasn’t so hypocritical I might agree.
He ran off with my last paper bag and can of maf cleaner
If Scotty knew so much then he wouldn't have such damn silly hair.
Scotty is just a clickbaiter and spews nonsense.
I've been a Journeyman tech for 10 years now and as most people have pointed out there are many many things that contribute to power loss when putting on "Cold air intakes". But the one thing that always seems to bother me, and i know it shouldn't, is no one likes to talk about how 90% of Factory intakes ARE COLD AIR INTAKES. Almost every car draws its air from either the grill or the fender from factory. I mean think about it for one moment people, you dont need a cold air intake because you already have one! If it was as easy as simply changing a pipe and a filter to gain HP the Manufactureres would do it instantly! Anyways thats my rant for the day. As always, keep it up guys your videos always make me happy and put a smile on my face. Good job
exactly, that yellow car was sucking in hot air right off the hot metal intake manifold.
Totally! The Suzuki had air ducted straight into the stock filter so the engine could only suck it in through that, making sure all the air comes from the outside. This "fancy" K&N setup just has a pipe exiting near the filter, so whatever air trickles up there from the outside is mixed up with the heat from the engine. Such a half-assed solution from a supposed reputable brand. Shame.
This is so true. Had a guy argue with me at a car meet once because I said this.
Somehow the factory box “isn’t a real cold air intake”😂 dude was a 🤡
It’s kind of hard to know for sure what was going on unless you put the stock air box and filter back on and do a dyno run the same day to see if there were any other variables involved
Yeah I'm pretty sad that they didn't do that.
That's what I was thinking, as well.
@@MrMarty77 They've done this before on a much older video, including swapping back on the same day. The result was the same. Pod filters suck, K&N especially. They're made for suckers who don't understand how airflow and intakes work.
@@MrMarty77 They have done it in other videos. The aftermarket air intakes have always been a scam.
"pod" open filters in an engine bay is the worst thing you can do to a car. Especially when it sits directly over a hot engine. $500 for that? Moog got screwed.
It'd be awesome to see:
The maximum power you can gain with a dyno tune using the STOCK intake
VS.
The max with a dyno tune using an AFTERMARKET intake.
I feel like this could be the scenario that they're actually useful
Was about to comment this.
You can't tune stock cars that easily, not without some ecu.
@@jaky3 its really easy actually, you rarely need an aftermarket ecu
On some of the Peugeot models, to safely tune them without adding the expense of an aftermarket ecu, you got to remove and open up the ecu and solder some wires, download the info on the ecu, adjust some tables, then flash it back, reinstall etc...its a bit of a mission especially on a petrol engine where gains would be minimal and Rodney lurks waiting for overzealous tuning
@@garren3498 depends on what car.
On the Peugeot the taller heavier wheels would have definitely reduced power
Would be interesting to see a k&n panel filter in the stock air box… maybe look at cold air feeding to the air box with some added intake / porting with the ducting
Would have liked to see you swap back to stock on the dyno after that last run to double check.
Love to see Marty's original intake with the new exhaust, see if the $50 exhaust made a diff.
I actually think it martys case his exhaust was too big, and the intake was less of the issue, where Moog it was the opposite.
Do they run whit same tires as before, low power car like that even tire mass chances dyno results.
@@winha1435 yeah, one of many drawbacks of measuring power at the wheels only, you're never sure what caused the power drop, is it the engine or something else.
I'm pretty confident the exhaust is what kills the power, 76mm exhaust is way too big for that engine and power level.
Engines don't like backpressure but you need to balance flow and velocity, too much flow will hurt velocity
@@NineS5 Same goes maybe for the ultra-complicated factory air filter setup? Peugeot engineers know what they're doing....
Dropping pod filter without any shielding on top of the exhaust manifold in the back of the engine bay. I can only imagine how crazy the intake air temperature was.
I thought this too, but that's actually the intake manifold. The exhaust is located on the front, you can see the heat shield in the overhead shot.
Now, that said. I still wouldn't want to be drawing my air from next to the engine bay.
@@mitchellpatterson3323 oh yeah. Embarrassing overlook by me
@@adamtomecek6704 Don't be hard on yourself, I thought the same thing initially
It's still feels like a barmy place to put it.
Made me double take when I saw it.
@@IoSkyBoyoI 100%, it's still drawing hot air from the top of the motor rather than cold air from the side like the standard intake.
I reckon it was the wheel and tire change that made the horsepower loss more rolling resistance.
I agree. Seems reasonable that the cup2 tires has higher rolling resistance than the stock tires. I dont think that the exhausts decrease power, the air filters may but it should be 1-2kW
The Peugeot also has bigger and heavier wheels, ofcourse it lost power...
But wouldnt that be counter calculated when the resistance is measured? Lower wheel hp yes, but at the crank that shouldnt have an effect imho
I was thinking the same, would love to see back to back dyno runs with the two different wheelsets on each car.
Yes! Plus I'm pretty sure the dyno works by knowing torque and doing maths to give a power figure. Bigger wheels = less torque = less power number on dyno, even if engine horsepower increased.
You can only do so many mods before you get into needing tuning, and I feel you guys are right there at the door.
Mainline dyno’s have definitely thrown us as a part manufacturer for a loop in the past. They’re very strict in some ways, and definitely could be the problem. It would have been useful to do the test in the same day. But given the location of that filter and the way a dyno operates I suspect the intake air temp has significantly changed, which can not only result in natural performance loss but also can trigger the calibration to significantly lower power in order to avoid knock.
The OEM intakes are usually pretty sophisticated tuned-length affairs, as well as heat shielded. If you try swapping the filter with a panel filter, you will might see a small change if there is a significant enough restriction in the filter (there probably isn't). The only real reason to do a pod filter is if you're modifying enough of your engine bay that it is the only practical option.
So true. I swapped out the stock panel filter with a K&N panel filter in my BA Falcon back in the day, and got a notable gain in power. I then removed the intake snorkel part leading to the airbox, which gave a bigger opening into the airbox to get more air, and got more gains. The snorkel is a restrictive part. I've removed this snorkel to the airbox on numerous cars, and always made gains. There's something to be said about the research gone into the inlet from the airbox to the motor, and removing it can have a negative effect. Every time I've removed the snorkel only, not only have I gained some power, I've also gained intake noise. I do believe they make these snorkels like this to reduce noise emissions, with the downside of robbing some power.
My 3 cents.
@SirDaffyD correct... I once owned a 1.4 8v Fiat Punto, swapped the airbox snorkel from its hot intake that went to a blanked off section of the grille that was covered in painted cardboard (Yes, cardboard)
Took that out, replaced the snorkel with a cold feed tube, cut a section in the grille so it pointed directly into a windpath...
Very noticeable difference... minor but noticeable.
@@SirDaffyD unless you're crossing rivers regularly they're just power thieves really
@@SirDaffyDof course, some cars have a large portion of plastic in the fender that the intake is attached to. It's an enclosure of a bunch of baffles and angles that the air has to pass through, quiets things down.
Stock intakes, even without that are definitely designed to cut down on engine noises.
One thing I'd be interested to know - what's the surface area of the pod filter, compared to the stock panel filter. Like if you were to cut the pod open and lay the filter element flat, I wonder if it would have a smaller or greater surface area of filtration? If that's not the reason, surely the terrible mounting location would have a lot to do with the losses. Pretty devastating result considering how much it cost!
The pod will have much more of course.
That 100hp motor is not nearly restricted by that size cone.
I am thinking it is more about sucking in hot air with the pod. Or could be a tuned length thing.
That would be incredibly hard to compare. The filter medium is just so different that it wouldn't really matter.
A better comparison would probably be how much effort it takes to pull air in through it, and how much particle matter is in the air post filtration.
But you'd need a proper lab to be able to test that. Perhaps it would be an interesting topic for an LTT video?
That KN filter is an expensive piece of shit.
Be interesting to see the hp with the stock airbox back on with the performance exhaust
Exactly, the swift wldnt hve taken that long to change bck on the same day & same dyno bck to bck test for a definite answer....opportunity missed imo
Yes they should test this
I second that. Would be very interesting to see. I didn't expect them to make hp but was surprised to see that much of a drop in the case of the swift
So many variables missed as well, like we dont know if outside temp changed.
The problem is you have to put the k&n sticker on the car ,lol
Im in the uk and i used to like induction filters for the noise when i was younger, but since i've got a bit older and a bit smarter, now i keep the standard air box, chop any fins inside the box to make it as smooth as possible, replace the ribbed intake hose with a smooth one and replace the panel filter with a better flowing filter, my preference is a company called 'green' and you keep the same set up as your car manufacturer spend ££££'s researching and developing, increase the sound a bit, help the flow of air a little bit and its really cheap to do.
I also noticed in my time that on smaller not very powerful engines, you lose low down torque by using an open/induction filter compared to a standard airbox, so you make your already slow accelerating car even slower off the mark.
I'm a mechanical engineer who worked (past tense) in the automotive aftermarket, so I might have some insight.
Here's how it probably went. A salesman or reseller somewhere told the K&N engineering team that they needed an intake kit for the Swift to fill out the K&N sales catalog, but the engineering team were probably given little (or no) access to an actual Suzuki Swift for testing, so they gave it a good guess, created a kit using parts that K&N already had, and were forced to move on to the next project.
That's my guess too. Research and development requires actual research to be done.
As someone working in RnD, this is pretty accurate on how most of the engineering is done in big companies. Not for all products but certainly Swift's kit is an example. Add on top of that misunderstood engineering notes that get overpromised by the marketing and sales.
Another case might be that they know it loses power but that wouldn't make sense for a product so they will look for a corner case or additional modifications to justify this filter.
It's such a complex issue, but over the years (and thanks to your videos as well!), I think it just comes down to these small cc NA engines being engineered to be incredibly efficient by the manufacturer. Decreased restriction/pressure/velocity in the intake and exhaust probably only benefits FI setups. And in modern vehicles most likely only with tuning in any case.
Sometimes it hardly feels like I used to watch you guys doing budget mods in a driveway so long ago
right in the feels
Dude, tell me about it. I think I'm old
i'd love for them to mod a fan or someone having a rough times nugget their driveway to get that feeling again
Marty literally made his intake out of pvc 😂
These were the guys that made a urine based patina!
The issue for Moog is probably in part the location of the induction kit, you would do better to replace the stock filter with a K&N panel filter in the stock airbox. Also as you mentioned tuning, that is what is needed to take full advantage of a full exhaust system and an intake change, a stock ECU will try it's best to make adjustments to run the engine in pre determined values.
I agree with replacing just the stock panel filter with a K&N panel filter. I've just this mod to a few intakes, and always made gains. So much R&D goes into designing the intake, that totally replacing it will almost always have a negative effect, unless the ecu is retuned to that intake. Saying that, I've removed the snorkel on the intake side of many airboxes, and made gains due to where the snorkel enters the airbox being bigger than the hole where the air enters the snorkel. I've always gained more intake noise doing this also.
Hey, i've been watching your guy's channel since i was a kid, i'm 24 now and still enjoy watching everything you do here, thank you so much, i appreciate you Marty and Moog very much
Not living up to your name bro, you can't just do that; go on the internet and lie.
@@Scrubsgetrekt 😂😂
filter right on most maf's makes them swirl instead of straight sections metering right, also stock box was getting air from a different place not back of engine bay, just some stuff to try
Here to see if the old PVC intake I did back in the day on my first car was killing it or not
Edit- after watching, glad we only spent $10 instead of $350 for that car 😂😂
dont forget 1.2k exhaust :D
@@yunusertas done that once, probably just going to stick to learning and making my own 😅😅
it only makes less power if the car is otherwise stock. if you tune the ecu by sending it to a company itll fix the top end of the rpm band from running lean and losing power. the ecu can only tolerate 5-10% extra air than it expects before running out of injector pressure to keep up with the high intake volume.
I'd be pointing towards the rolling resistance of the new sticky tyres
That might actually be a pretty valid point. Would be interesting to test that with a flir camera pointed at the tyre during a dyno run.
Deffinetely has an effect. I forget the weight difference from stock but heavier tires will reduce appearent power as well since tyno runs are a dynamic test.
When it comes to small changes like a air filter change they need to be tested on a engine Dynomometer in a controlled environment. Chassis dynos just aren't precise enough due to temp, humidity, dew point and barometric pressure, tire pressure, transmission temperature ect ect which effects every parameter of a Dyno run.
Your pod filter was mounted above the engine so it pulled in warmer / less dense air. Your stock filter box has longer, thinner pipes - that helps increase the air velocity going in. Your stock box also has a cold air duct going to the front of the car.
Position of the MAF is key. OE airbox ensures best reading of airflow across the sensor. Look at the bellmouths used on ITB setups, a good aftermarket intake has similar design incorporated to keep the MAF reading accurately.
K&N drop in air filter for the swift is a much better option. You still maintain the cold air intake with better air flow than the pod inhaling hot air with its positioning.
They DONT WORK. They only sound cool.
I said the 'trash' option for marty should have been a panel filter
need to dyno for the facts
You mean the paper filter itself? That doesn't make it a "cold air intake." K&N is typically pretty mid. They just have name recognition and a cool logo so people just assume they're good. An example of a quality CAI would be the Rotofab intakes for the 6th gen Camaro
Tuning ECU will fix the problem. Maybe!!!
The air filter was right next to the hot exhaust. The original air box protected the filter from drawing in the hot air. If you used part of the old air box to protect it from the warm air I'm sure you will see the the numbers back to stock or a tiny bit higher.
That basically defeats the purpose of the video. The down pipe was just for the noise, and the K&N setup was supposedly “a drop-in kit.”
@@cjwrench07 that's fair point. As per fitted instructions it's definitely not worth paying extra, for this set up to draw in hot air lol.
I agree on the filter thats too close on exhaust.
@@GorillazMach1 How would you move it further away from the exhaust? They are already on opposite sides of the engine.
Dont quote me. But I think the exhuast side is close to the bumper.
So the intake is above the intake side. Still a barmy place for an pod filter.
maybe try the k&n drop in filter? could be better results?
A K&N drop in panel filter with the stock intake system will give you the small gains you're looking for, those full induction kits very rarely work.
Over the years I've only ever managed to get an increase in power on 2 cars, one was a 2.0L MX5 and the other was a Lancia Delta, both N/A cars, all the rest sounded fantastic but ultimately caused a drop in horses.
I really enjoy all the tests you guys have done over the years. This kind of info really helps diy and enthusiasts.
Loving "Cash vs Trash" . Go team PurgeBro.
PeugBro supremacy 👌
Peugbros unite!
Here for the underdog story
@@lukebarnes8097 peugeot arent the underdog. Just different class of car really. Look at suzukis WRC non existent win compared to the astounding 13 championships PSA have won
@@JoelDunstan 206 WRC 🐐
I think you should have measured them with the stock exhaust and intake in the same conditions (i.e. same day, same (probably higher roll resistance + weight) wheel/tire combo). Also I believe modern cars usually take some time to 'cope' with the changed hardware. I believe these mods overall should have resulted in no power change at all under the right conditions.
Yeah this is left so unresolved not testing with the stock A/F back to back - I guess there is logistics involved in it not being an easy thing to swap in and out that makes that unfeasible.
@@craigmonty I'd think it's quite easy in the Swift at least (except for the exhaust). The Peugeot seems a little more challenging, but this could be done in between running the other car.
Not just 'some', espécially if it's a bit old. It took my sw20 mr2 a month to fully adjust to changed parts.
Kind of a shame Marty didn't try out the intake hack from the last intake video.
This! Keep airbox, remove resonator and all that spaghetti piping, remove fog light and duct the intake to the fog light hole. Cheap and works
Bro puts the intake at the back of the engine and wonders why he lost power 😂😂
I was thinking the same thing
Rolling resistance makes a difference. This should have been factored in by changing back to the tires used on the first dyno test. After that air temperature could also factor. With the minor incremental claims of increased power these mods advertise, these two fundamental conditions make a difference, from all I have read. Tuning as well could be a factor even though a CEL doesn’t appear. Fun video regardless.
How the car is strapped on to the Dyno also makes a difference. For this kind of testing they should have been using a hub Dyno
The loss with the filter was most likely the way the filter changed the flow over the maf sensor making the tune off
Literally came here to say this. The ECU needs to be tuned for the intake and exhaust. The factory ECU fuel and ignition tables are not tuned or adaptive enough to take advantage of the extra air flow.
It’s this.
Source: I’ve been tuning cars for weeks now.
@@24k__J K&N in this situation are incorrect, as the video pointed out. That's because each ECU fuel and ignition tables are defined differently. So while there may be an overwhelming majority of stock ECU mappings for various cars that can take advantage of the K&N intake, there are other vehicles whose ECU mappings can not.
Moral of the story here is the manufacturers claims are not always correct. Remember, they are a business looking to make money. They make a decent product. In the case of the Suzuki, it's ECU was mapped for airflow from the factory airbox. Not an aftermarket intake. Remapping the ECU will allow the car to take advantage of the K&N. Which was my original point.
i just posted this also lol
why doesnt tuner know that
That K&N kit was made specifically for the Swift Sport, so if the MAF wasn't positioned correctly, that's on K&N for not testing it.
Someone in the comments called it, a comparison of acceleration times on a track before and after the mods would be interesting to see, cause that's what it's all about. A engine dynamometer is an awesome tuning tool, but it's the on tarmac results that will count here.
Agreed 100%, I don't trust these Dyno results
I think the dyno is the variable and maybe even the day itself. If you want to do a test with the only variable being the filters; I think it would show more realistic resuts if you dyno with stock filters, and then dyno with aftermarket ones, all in the same day on the same dyno.
When Moog took the stock intake off, he removed the snorkel that pulls air from the front of the car, and by putting the air filter where he did, he is now pulling air from the engine bay. Simply put, he went from cooler air, to pulling hot air which is thinner...so basically now you are pulling less air than you were with the stock setup. Pod filters are designed to allow for more air flow through them, but if the air is is thinner where the filter is, it will cause a decrease in power.
Ways to eliminate the loss in power would be to either have a box that closes the filter off from the engine air (with some opening to allow fresh air in) or to run a longer air tube with the filter on the end of it, placing the filter near the front/bottom of the car where the air will be colder and therefor denser.
2:55 buddy is cleaning the tempreature sensor lmao.
The K&N is right at the back pulling straight hot air, The stock intake pulls cold air that's the difference
Why did I have to dig so far down the list to find this comment? THIS. How is this not what everyone is talking about? I have chuckled at MANY a "hot air intake" mod I've seen installed on people's cars. DON'T DO IT.
he also added the cold air intake so it shouldn't be sucking the hot in
@@ShanesGettingHandy your spot on i thought it would be the top comment but apparently people don't know so i had to let them know
@@troyam6607Not really, that thing is just basically just a dryer hose that is supposed to bring air from the front, but the system isn't sealed so the pod filter is still just pulling in hot engine compartment air. Complete waste of money
Fun series :) As others have already mentioned, I believe its the heavier wheel/tire combo that caused at least some of the loss. Maybe next time bring 2 of the old wheels/tires and try installing those (on the front of course) to see if it would have made a difference.
No. It's the pod filter. This isn't the first time they've tested this, and this is also well known amongst the educated people in the car community. Pod filters, and K&N filters suck, and are aimed at suckers who don't know better.
Moog’s wheels were basically the same weight as the stocks. They showed it being weighed on the episode.
you got to use the same dyno for comparison, or do back to back runs on the same dyno making the mods. Otherwise its not the same comparison. The amount of settings of the dyno that could change the calculated output just make it too hard to compare reasonably especially if the gains/losses are so small.
Came here to ask if they were using the same dyno as the base runs. If not, there is no way to do it accurately, and it's almost a waste of time.
Exactly, not only that, it's the Dyno calibration that could be say 2% different, test needed to be performed on same dyno to give a definitive comparison, though it's obvious the banana machine has lost some power, the silver french shitbox probably could be making the same power as it did before
Looked back at the previous video and it is the same dyne.
This is actually really good video. It just shows that not everything goes your way. Very keen to see detailed explanation to why soo much power was lost.
Really like this episode as I have been down this path with my old Ignis Sport.
Lost power with a K&N pod filter.
Put back the stock box with a drop in K&N filter and gained back the power.
Dont understand the engineering behind this, but I just named it Suzuki sorcery and moved on.
A drop in K&n filter with factory intakes are the go 💯👌
Still crap filtration. Just fit a paper filter and change it regularly.
@@ChocolateFrogor clean up your filter more regularly, same stuff really
K&N is shit filtration
@@kostasnls4566 K&N filters let loads more contaminants through than paper filters. Project Farm did a great video on it.
I dynoed one on my car and it lost power, and worse filtration
You gotta get it tuned to match the new exhuast and intake. Mods add power but sometimes need a tune to bring them to their full potential. It throws the air fuel mix off
tune in next week for more clueless comments
Did the ECUs get a full reset and enough miles to approve whatever emission controls which may be in place? California resident so ECUS and emissions is on the mind..
The Swift also has different wheels and tires now. They are heavier than what was there before. This can skew your dyno results. So even if the car makes a little less power, it will still be faster on track most likely since it will have a ton more grip.
im not a mechanical engineer either but you have put the swift air filter near the engine and it consume the heat, better to be down with some stainless steel pipes or the stock filter with a big air scoop. +bonus a sprint booster will be a good idea.
If you want extra power you have to remove or uptade catalytic converter and headers and then all together will work and you will see some results.
Cold air is the key! Pod filters are great as long as they are put in a place that they can suck cold air.
pod fiilters are trash.
you guys should've done 0-60 tests on track before and after mods, just to be sure there isn't anything finnicky about that dyno calibration (specially since it's been weeks since the first test)
I would think it would introduce too many variables but not a bad idea.
A dyno works by measuring the power output at the rollers, by changing wheel sizes you changed the gear ratio to the rollers skewing the results. Swapping back to the stock wheel/tyre setup should give you more comparable power numbers to the first dyno results.
Not if you do it according to the specs. The outside diameter stays the same when you change wheels. If you go from 16 to 17" wheels for instance, the sidewall becomes lower. When a rim manufacturer produces a rim they'll write in the datasheet which rubber to use for your specific car.
The original box was enclosed and had a shape that would make air flow in a way the engine likes better. Also, the enclosure protects from the heat of the engine/exhaust. High temperature air makes the combustion worse resulting in lower hp. If you put that pod filter and somehow isolate the rest of the intake, it's probably still not gonna flow as good as the original intake but probably won't lose that much power.
Would be interested to see the test done again on the same dyno you first done to see if it’s the difference in the dyno itself
Loving this series boys! Can't understand how you both lost similar power. This is super informative!
Swift lost like %8 more than the 206. The pug was marginally worse. Swftt noticeable loss. Just shows, spending thousands thousands is not always the answer!
2 questions: Were all runs on the same dyno? And, how does the weather/ temperature compare from original to current testing?
Given that the 206 gave similar results I think we can rule out the Dyno and conditions as a reason for the swift decrease in power
@@fermillo65 swift had different wheels and tires this time. Conditions were not quite the same. Not an apples to apples giggy.
Had this same kind of thing happen to a buddy's lancer years ago, put the filter right on the mass air. It made great intake noises but tanked his low end and full economy. Then added a foot or two (still made intake noises) and the car was preforming much better.
The best bang for the buck is to modify the existing airbox. Remove the silencer and figure out a clean way to fill the hole. Add reflective heat tape/wrap to the airbox to reduce heat soak. Then get a high flow panel filter to drop in.
Remember the tyres and wheels are different on the cars. That'll change the power figure especially if they're way grippier. Tyres get very hot on dynos!
Is the tyre size different between dyno runs? That will definitely effect power reading on the dyno.
Yeah it is. That's why the results are irrelevant and also there was no tuning carried out which is essential to get the gains from mods.
@@jackrichards1863 it's not essential, of the tune was a bit fat stock (which they pretty much all tend to be), opening up intake and exhaust can improve volumetric efficiency and give some small gains. Bigger gains can be achieved with tuning.
@@shayispunkish pretty much. Still those efficiencies are pretty clean so they should be able to capitalize on the change. Very hard to beat a factory assembly now I'm the performer cars like the Sport or Peugot, or the hot Golf is hard to improve on those hot models
U have to tune it to fully maximise the power. Just bolting these on will cause power loss
Exactly. Bolt ons only give power gains if the ECU knows what it’s working with.
K&N doesn't specify if tune is needed or not.
@@fohatadri U can bolt on a K&N air filter no problems. It will change the induction sound making you think it is better but there will be no objective improvements as the ECU doesnt know what to do with the increased airflow. If anything it panics and cuts power for safety as it gets confused.
U can put it on and it wont do any harm but u will not get a true performance benefit until u turn your car. Most people add filter, then exhaust, headers etc. then when u have them all bolted on that you are going to get then u go for a tune to keep costs down (tune after each bolt on is too costly). Then u will get the combined benefits of all the breathing mods.
Very much appreciate the honesty and transparency with the intake performance considering that K&N could likely be a sponsor of the show.
A big reason you could have lost power with the K&N intake is because it is acting as a short RAM intake. A short RAM intake pulls air from inside the engine bay, where there is TONS of heat, especially where that K&N kit is located right above the exhaust that reaches around 2k degrees internally.
If you were to move the air filter to pull air from the outside of the car, known as a cold air intake kit, you would definitely gain some power back. If you combo a true cold air intake kit with a tune, you should definitely get more power.
I hope this info treats you well and am looking forward to a re-test with these recommendations.
Cheers guys, keep up the good work!
You guys should get the cars tuned with the mods, that way you can maximize those mods cause like what was said the stock tune prob doesn’t compensate
Honestly super surprised they haven't.
@@SlowSTEN right? Usually they slap a haltech on it by now
even just resetting ecm may have helped, worth a try
@@GrizzlyGarage Because they wanna race them with just adding mods, no tune or anything like that I believe don’t quote me
@@oDilby yeah I’m pretty sure you’re right
It would be interesting to test a K&N filter inside the standard airbox.
K&N filters are shit. They have fewer pleats, which means less airflow, their material is thinner, and instead they soak them in oil to try to compensate for the shitty filter.
Want a good filter? Pick something with a lot of pleats, and thick material. The pleats will let it flow better, the thicker material will filter more.
@@Nabeelco was that something you read on a forum?
@@TheStriker0525 No, it's something automotive engineers, mechanics and scientists have said.
@@Nabeelco And oil contaminate the MAF
Insomnia FTW!!
Hell yeah! LETS GOOO
It's because in both cases, the MAF sensor scaling needs to be retuned for the new tube and the rest of the map adjusted for the change in air volume. If the exhaust are full systems (not just catbacks) same applies to the exhausts. Another factor is that the factory intake is pulling cold air from the front of the car but the new ones pull warm air from the engine bay.
Thank you for the science experiment !
Didn't expect a power loss on both cars ,definitely is educational .
cant wait to the next video .
You need to map the ECU to use that extra airflow (both in and out)
This - Surely that is what's missing?
As long as the maf sensor can see the extra air flow and the iat sees it's cooler, the ECU should raise fuel trims accordingly. You've got a bout 20% injector duty cycle as headroom remember 👍
@@jossdauncey4986 the stock ECU isn't adjusting that much, it can adjust a bit for hot or cold air, it can't cope with mechanical mods
Yeah to use the extra hot air that is being sucked in from the engine compartment now
@@jossdauncey4986 This is the right answer. For your typical non-turbo injection engine (not mechanical injection), the factory tables have more than enough headroom to cope with the negligible extra airflow from a fart can and pod filter.
If you run full exhaust with headers and decat you will see gains with a tune, but even that should run better than stock with no remap.
I'm waiting for adding lightness episode
Next ep 🎉
Shouldnt y re-tune or re-map the ecu after these modifications? Y add more air and exhaust fumes leave more easily. The character of the car as we say in Greece changes. Without the proper ecu program u won't see any improvement no matter how many money you spend. A friend of mine has a Suzuki swift sport which has a full exhaust system with a racing catalytic converter, doesn't have a cold air filter. With the ecu program makes 137hp to the wheels
It makes sense to do a remap of the ecu, also with more fuel and air coming in a new set of sparkplugs properly gapped can make a big difference, may be even more with some colder ones. Bigger injectors, bigger throttle body, if you do cams you pass the threshold of a stand alone ecu depending on make and model. The 206 I would engine swap before going that far. The swift need a turbo to get any serious gain in power. Stage 3 tune without a turbo can lead up to 150bhp. With a modest turbo setup 190 for a daily driver is easy to achieve but you are thousands of dollars in it at that point.
I like cars but im a bit more of a bike dude. We tuned a yamaha xtx660 last week and it has an open filter, an exhaust ,a reprofile camshaft and a bit of handmade porting at the head (stock piston). It had its ecu tuned by a proper man and now makes 62whp. Months ago we turned a different xtx660 and it had everything from a high compression piston to a Very big camshaft with big throttle body BUT he wanted to go to a different tuner so it made 68whp and it keeps failing the sparks plugs (bad tune). With the proper tune it should make over 75++ whp. That's im trying to say. Every thing is the ecu
@@atrem7942 Yes but the point of this series is "is the expensive after market modifications worth it or can y do it cheaper with a bit of your knowledge and cheap stuff?" Of course big name brands are better (although most of your money goes to the name of the brand. For an example y pay double the money for a K&N filter but y can find an equally good quality filter for the half price) but the thing im trying to say throwing all these stuff on the engine won't do anything without a proper ecu program
@john013 john013 i literally start with saying a ecu remap makes sense, why are you making it look like, I am saying something else. I don't even mention any big brands names. For most people it is about the driving experience exhaust making the engine roar. Intake suction sound same thing. In their mind they think it makes the car go faster and that is all they want. Reality proofs no real gains are had unless you remap the ecu to make sense of the bigger volume of air and fuel coming in and the exhaust having less back pressure. more then the real gain of torque or horse power the sound experience is all they get certainly those people who only fit a cold air intake and exhaust.
Ofc u will loose power with the Suzuki, the pod filter is sucking in hot air which is less dense because it’s placed on top of the engine with no heat shield, also the car isn’t moving so there is no cold air coming through the pipe infront of the pod filter to feed it with cool air, and on top of that u should get a tune when u install an exhaust and an intake because the air to fuel ratios will be different and won’t work well with the stock tune
When you had the expert there on the podfilters, het said that having it on top of the block would result in hp loss and you should construct a cold airintake. So no surprises.
If you want to go for weightredu tion after ditching all the mats, rear seat and rest of the interior, throw dry ice in the footwell, let it evaporate, take a hammer and brake the tar and remove it. Then put primer on the bare metal.
congrats MCM , you have just discovered what engineers know about pod filters ... THEY ARE TRASH !! Also congratulations for showing the findings which is not good for sponsorship but a good proof to your watchers that you have integrity !
I want to see what K&N are going to do about the loss of power with their apparent guarantee...
Without doing before and after on same dyno, you can’t trust the results.
They did do the test on the same dyno, only differences would be how they were tied down and temperature
@@Ryan-hf9qz and wheels/tyre combo
I had the exact same thing happen to me. I just restored a 1983 VT500C Honda Shadow, yes I know it's a motorcycle, but it's an internal combustion engine just the same. The previous owner had removed the air box and put in pod filters, after hours of research I found out that I had to change my carb jets up two sizes to account for the extra air flow. The same is happening with both of your cars. You changed the filters but you didn't change the tune on the engine. Unless you can reprogram the computer to make up for the increased air flow you will never make more power.
A drop in K&N filter in the stock air box may help a bit, but again, unless you retune the engine you will see very little gains going that route.
I work as a calibration engineer in the automotive industry (we do essentially what Scotty does when they install a Haltech and he puts all the numbers into the maps and tables but our ECUs are from Bosch, Denso, Delphi etc). I've worked at a motorcycle oem before and now I work with diesel engines that have been converted to hydrogen combustion.
I assume that the ECU of the Swift works pretty similar to what I've seen on the motorcycles and how I think haltech ECUs work as well (I have never worked with one before). It's a lambda=1 concept, which means that you open the throttle blade according to a accelerator input (ride by wire, or actual wire, doesn't matter) and then the ECU squirts the fuel into the port according to the measured Air Mass and the defined lambda (somewhere between 0.95 and 1.10, in stationary load points).
So in theory if everything (temperature in dyno room, humidity and ambient pressure) is the same on both days and you install a "less restrictive" air filter you'd have less pressure drop at the filter element (which is very very small anyways on clean, stock intake systems).
So with less pressure drop at the filter element you have theoretically more Air mass jammed into the engine and for the same "lambda setpoint" at full throttle the ECU would inject more fuel and thus generating more power.
However, we are talking very minimal differences (think of the leaf blower in the turbo chargers mythbasted video). So even if you could measure a small increased AirMass and the ECU would inject more fuel you could probably not even measure it at the wheels due to the dyno tolerances.
However you do suck in hot air directly over the engine instead of ambient temperature which probably negates all the theoretical wins you could get earlier and you probably lose actualy measurable power by removing the intake manifold that's most likely tuned to produce a certain HP at a certain rpm. In theory shorter intake manifolds yield in power higher up in the rev-band and longer more in the middle (that's why some N/A cars have switchable air paths).
Which length and diameter leads to which increases at which rev point is very scientifical and I wouldn't know how to calculate that. It's safe to assume though that it very much depends on the engine parameters and for all we know the "sweet spot" of this K&N manifold might be at rpms way beyond the rev limiter of this little car, or much lower. Have you plotted the power curves on top of each other for every run? Would be interesting to analyze.
You can lose power with the warmer intake temperature, the (I assume) "untuned" intake dimensions, dyno tolerances, weather conditions that specific day...oh and does it have a knock control? Atmospheric pressure and temperature influences the knock tendency on petrol cars as well, so maybe the knock controller dialed the ignition back a little, that's probably a much bigger factor than anything else.
For my Swift Sport the best air intake was Simota with "carbon" cover. It increased the stock power by 5hp. No oil on it so it doesn't foul the maf reading as well and grabs the air from directly in front of the cars bonnet (you can cut the bonnets gasket for better airflow in that part).
@Absolute Mad Chad autocorrection hahah. It was meant to say Simota of course. And it's not a lie, I did 4 Dyno tests. Stock was 126bhp, air filter 131bhp, with full custom exhaust 136bhp and remap brought it to 142bhp.
-Peugeot recipe for power-
Work some Venturi effect by going two steps up (one at a time) on the intake it will provide aceleration of the laminar flow and keep the readings right.
The new exhaust size is too far away from the log manifold, its got to be right from the log to the 3 incher.
Now the thing that really makes it go, Timing... You can throw almost 10 degrees of advance at it, just keep it very rich to be on the safe side. ( Those engine are undertuned for safety, they are sold in some markets that are not worried about fuel standards)
I've ran into the same thing with most all aftermarket "cold air intakes". However I have felt improvement over a K&N stock filter replacement over a paper element and with 200k on that K&N cleaning it whenever it needs and MAF sensor cleaner handy it's the only way I roll.
Marty & Moog,
The sub compact and micro cars are specifically designed and engineered for efficiency which is why most aftermarket products do not bring the expected improvements at the stock level. Of course power adders will of course develop more power, but then they are no longer stock.🤙
Good quality pod filters are fantastic when used in the correct application. Turbo setups with a constant stream of fresh air and closed intake systems that utilise a pod filter will yield good results.
I like how the pod air filter was directly on top of the exhaust mana fault. Got to keep that air nice and warm.
Maybe move the pod filter to outside the engine bay, into the wheel wells? That's where I put my pod filter when I use it (summer use only).
The k&n intake for my car came with a heat shield to block excess engine heat. I get around 4-5 more whp after install however if the car is idling for an extended period the air temperature becomes so high that all the gained power from the intake is lost until it cools back down. The placement of the intake is extremely important as placing it closer to hot engine components like exhaust headers can make you lose power even with proper airflow.
A lot of cars will not have self-learning ECU's, and when you just throw more air at them, they'll struggle with matching up the AFR and start to attempt compensating for reading what it perceives as wrong values and end up cutting power because it thinks it's too lean etc. Some cars come with self-learning ones that you just need to leave the battery off of for an hour or so, then teach it the injector profiles etc through driving it again after the reset and have a lot of sudden stops from choking out the engine as it's learning. Evo 7 to 9 ecu's are known to be such ECU's that you can teach and also tune by connecting to, but for many folks it's better to pick the latter and actually head to a proper tuning shop to get dyno-run tuning done.
Hi, mechanical engineer here. I could throw theories about what's going on but to be honest you should do what every engineer does, modify and log variables, not just engine power.
Grab a laptop and log the ecu, especially these parameters : engine load, iat, mass flow and pressure at the manifold.
Do this with the stock intake and the pod filter and you should tell right way what's the problem.
If I could bet, the iat is probably higher with the pod filter, which with the same pressure at the manifold, reduces air mass, reducing power.
Simple equation: pv=mrt
For the Peugeot the expanded exhaust piping will have the impact of lowering exhaust velocity, this directly impacts the scavenging effect, which directly impacts the air fuel ratio (aka. power).
Going from a 2.0 inch pipe to a 2.25 inch pipe would have minimal negative effects in the lower RPM range while giving a bit more breathing room for higher RPMs. Going from 2.0 inch to 3.0 inch (without large displacement, a turbo or supercharger) will result in a loss of power. Dale covered the basics of this on MCM2 2 weeks ago.
As per the Peugeot intake, I would wrap every joint/connection with tape, just to make sure there are no leaks, as any air leaks past the air metering device will have a negative impact on the air fuel ratio. The ECU is expecting a certain amount of metered air, but the reading via the oxygen sensor is different (ie. there is more air present than expected), which the ECU will react by changing the amount of fuel being delivered - thereby taking the engine outside of it's tune operating zone. More air and more fuel is only good if it can be leveraged (ie. it is tuned for that volume), otherwise it is wasted.
Along with that, the Peugeot (being much older and likely not maintained) should get new spark plugs at a minimum. If the existing ones are high on the time usage, they will also be out of their efficiency range.
Per the Swift intake... The filter element placement is really poor. If possible, I would rotate it to be away being directly over the engine, then try to get/make some ducting that would channel air from the front of the vehicle directly to the air filter. That would help to mitigate the negative impacts that intake clearly has.