Wesley was the pilot in command and had enough experience to know better than to make the choices that led to this terrible tragedy. If you want to see what happens when an 18-year-old student pilot takes off on a rogue flight at 4am and overflies a military base then watch this debrief 👉 th-cam.com/video/jCu1ykQNBpc/w-d-xo.html
I'm not a pilot. But I love your channel and the respect to show to all the pilots that take flying serious. Also you are super responsible when talking about these terrible tragedies
Hoover - Is it considered rude as a passenger to ask to see a pilot’s flight and plane qualifications, flight plan as well as the alternate landing/approach plan, and the plane’s maintenance records and the total weight before boarding? It seems many passengers in these debriefs just blindly trust the pilots to do the right thing.
Another excellent debrief. You covered all the bases well. One thought, when the controller first reported the field IFR, the pilot could have requested a special VFR entry into class D airspace but instead the controller simply advised the airport as IFR. Regardless, with a snow storm in their route of flight, attempting a VFR cross country is certainly not advisable.
@@bloomingale7868 Not at all. If I was your pilot I would be more than happy to spend an hour going through all of that with you no problem at all. It might have to be done the day before though because the morning/day of the flight is (should be) a busy time for a pilot making all the necessary preparations.
You're equating a VFR rated pilot with an IFR situation. This plane should've never left the ground. Then the pilot (who wasn't IFR rated) got himself into a situation he couldn't handle and likely didn't have the knowledge or skills to use everything the plane offered to save the flight. Unfortunately, no other pilot helped or perhaps was also not qualified.
And that’s where I think the VFR certification really fails the pilot. So much stress on looking out the window and referencing the horizon to know what we are doing while the whole time we have multiple instruments inside the plane that will tell us what the plane is doing, even if one of them fail, you have a few other things to reference. Personally, I think VFR should be a hybrid of VFR and IFR. Maybe not full IFR qualified but definitely proficient in using your instruments.
I've been following your channel for about a year now and my stomach gets in a knot listening to every accident breakdown. I flew privately for 30+ years and decided to stop cold turkey about 10yrs ago after realizing I was losing my "edge", making too many little dumb mistakes that I had read about in so many post-accident reports. I miss the challenge of flying safely, but don't regret knowing when my last flight occurred. Keep up the good work.
Good decision! I made the same choice a few years ago, I wasn't flying enough to be at the top of my game. Just being current isn't enough. BTW, I'm instrument rated but would file a flight plan for XC even on hard VFR days (not a cloud in the sky). It was especially handy in Addison TX (KADS) flying south as they could just route me straight through the Class B airspace, as well as tell me about traffic.
@@Rowganlife That is a quote from the Chernobyl series, during the addressing of the explosion by the head scientist. This pilot guy went full eastern europe right there.
As a retired air traffic controller I was always shocked that VFR pilots would wait until the last minute to ask for help, like we were their last choice. I practiced performing surveillance monthly and had performed multiple actual surveillance approaches. I don't understand why the FAA has eliminated surveillance approach requirements at most airports when this is such a valuable tool in our controller arsenal.
@mikeramsey, "I don't understand why the FFA ..." Mike, let's keep it simple: Where is the FFA located ?" As it's pronounced here in Missoula Montana..."WaRshington". The Swamp does not begin to describe the disfunction... ☆
@@fjb4932Dumb comment 1) government dysfunction isnt just related to DC. Plenty of state AND local governments are inept (yes, that applues to both blue AND red states) 2) we in the US just re-elected a guy whose OWN people from his first administration called an "idiot" and a "moron" and basically incapable if doing even the most simple if tasks. Not to mention causing exceptionally grave damage to our national security by stealing classified information post-presidency and then lying to law enforcement about it. So yeah, we just elected the king of the swamp.
Why do I keep hearing the same words & phrases, *no flight plan, no instrument rating, incorrect weight & balance, other pilots on board & no one speaks up?* The controller did a masterful job and still six people died for no good reason.
No one speaks up because they weren't sure if they had the popular opinion. That's what lemmings do. They say and do whatever they _feel_ will be most popular.
There was one Cessna 172 flight when I was 15 years old where I'm lucky this didn't happen to me. This was in the mid-80s, the airport was small but took a few 737 flights a day and was controlled. My 16 year old friend had a pilot's license (so he said), and invited me to take a flight with him. I don't know who the plane even belonged to, he said vaguely that it was owned by his family. This guy did no preflight checks and never even looked at a checklist. He said that he knew "from last time" that it had enough fuel. On the taxi out to the runway, he keyed the mic, did some talking, and muttered, "This f***ing radio is still broken." We took off without clearance, did some flying around near the airport for about half an hour, and then came back and landed without clearance. I feel lucky now that we weren't arrested on the ramp. For that matter, I'm just happy that we didn't crash due to low fuel. A few days later, I saw a TV documentary hosted by a guy, "Let's take a Cessna 172 flight!" As I'm watching him do all these preps, the walk-around, take samples from the wing tanks ("You want to make sure that the fuel is a nice sky-blue color with no particulates or other contamination!"), and run checklists prior to flight, I realized that my friend didn't do any of this. He didn't even check the fuel level. I realized that he didn't do anything, we just hopped in like a car and off we went. After that, I turned down all offers to go flying with him again. I don't know if he ever got in trouble for any of this. He moved away a year after this and I don't know what ever came of him.
I'm a newish vfr 60 year old pilot and this stuff drives me crazy. I own a Mooney and if I ever have a question about my flight, I ask before I rotate.
I’m 71, at 22 I worked on my Private. Got 40 hours with instructor, 3 hours solo. Passed the FAA written. I stopped. Realized that flying unless you did it a lot, was very dangerous. I won’t fly in a small plane. Learned a lot. Unless military trained very dangerous. Enjoy these briefs.
Completely agree with your logic I am an A&P mechanic and was on a job interview years ago & the guy who interviewed me was ex-Marine Corp pilot and he gave me the best advice regarding becoming a pilot "Unless you can fly at least 3 times per month to stay proficient, you are more dangerous to yourself & people on the ground" These flying accident videos are just incredible as to the arrogance & the "know it all" attitude of some people!! Weight & Balance is everything, then to top it off "Yes I am IFR capable" statement to the airport controller & innocent people died
Probably 2200 hrs of day trips and overnights to local airports. Like sailing around the bay for years and then deciding to hit open water down the coast for a day. With clouds on the horizon.
I have a friend whose father has been a corner-cutter and rule-bender/breaker for all of his 72 years. He truly shouldn't still be alive or at least not have all of his limbs with the dumb choices he's made but somehow he lives in a weird state of grace that protects him. The funny thing is that my friend, growing up with that as a role model, thought that was how to do things but every time he tried cheating, he got caught and faced the consequences until he learned that honesty is the best policy.
You see this all the time with driving. Speeding, running red lights, etc. Every time you get away with it, you grow more confident. Then you see the scene I saw yesterday. Two crushed cars in an intersection with several ambulances and fire trucks responding
Good on the ATC to recognize that the pilot clearly didn't know how to land IFR and try to help where he could. His instructions on the surveillance approach were clear...Wesley just lacked the ability, or willingness, to follow them properly. I hope ATC gets any help he needs to cope with this aircraft being lost on his watch. He did what he could.
This I also will never understand. I am not a pilot, but since I was 13yrs old, I am 55 now, I've been playing MS FlightSim. Back in those days with MS FS 2 there was not much to see, so I learned how to use NDBs, VORs, ILS etc. looking up the frequencies from charts, planning flight routes and so on. I was just gaming. But how can someone actually flying a real plane not be into such things? I mean, there is no magic necessary to use that.
One of the best small charter pilots I ever met was retired USN and zero BS. He had a luggage and a separate person scale in his hanger. If he doubted what you claimed..scale time. He carried a small portable one in all three of his aircrafts because return can be worse with the same people
Totally agree. EVERY plane/pilot should be required to have scales and weigh EVERYTHING. If someone finds that too intrusive, fine. WALK! Everyones safety is far more important than anyones vanity!
I'm a 99. I went on a day flight with a pilot and three passengers. We would be limited on the weight of our luggage (our purses). Not wanting to admit my true body weight, I told the pilot I weighed 110 but my purse weighed 45 pounds. (P.S. She got the joke.)
@@bikeny International women's pilot organization. I mentioned that because all passengers were pilots and knew the importance of weight and balance. P.S. they got my joke.
Don't really know why this channel first came to my attention, but even as a non-pilot, I find Hoover's videos fascinating. I won't pretend I understand all the technical details, which makes it all the more impressive that I always watch his debriefs all the way through.
There are pilots like this guy at every airport. We have one who almost never left the local area but feel he is the expert of everything aviation, giving advice on navigation, etc yet he rarely used more than 5 gallons of fuel in each flight. He has the latest navigation and autopilot avionics but he often struggled to use it for more than keeping heading. Anything more complicated got him flustered.
The most tragic thing is that I started to listen to the video and had that deja vu "wait a minute, he did a video about this already? no? wait... no... it is another story, but every element is repeated, rogue pilot, 5 passengers...." That is truly tragic
Yeah i thought the exact same thing. One more element is that this guy probably did not understand English that well, in Chicago we have a lot of folks like this where so few people speak English, particularly older folks, that when it gets stressful they simply can't communicate. Obviously was a factor here
Criminal. Not only is there no reason for this to happen, it is the highest form of gross negligence and misconduct imaginable. I feel so sad for the young woman and her father. And shame on the other pilots for their culpability in this manslaughter.
It seems likely that ego was really the root cause. With four other extremely experienced pilots on board, Wesley was probably under an intense amount of self-induced pressure to perform. All of his bonkers decisions make perfect sense in the context of a man trying to prove and display his independence and ability in front of his peers in the field. What a senseless loss.
Hey Hoover I get to charter lots of aircraft for my clients and often get to ride along into remote areas. Your channel has taken my awareness 5 levels up. I now have a serious set of questions ahead of every trip, that makes it very clear to both pilot and charter firm that we expect everyone to engage their brains on all aspects and have plans A, B and C in place before anyone gets on their flight. I know it annoys them, but I don't care. 95% of your videos show arrogance meets incompetence at the worst possible moments.
Pilots are hard of listening and ego pardoned because they have to keep flying no matter what mistake they make so none of it counts none of it counts none of it counts. If you had a lot of second-guessing in your personality and hesitation it would be very difficult to fly or to wish to fly. I just watched three people who are hard of listening and had I been there they be dead anyway. This guy got so much money he owned an airport and was selling an antique airplane and he is not wanting to hear a single word out of me that my queer a sale he wants that sale he'll make that sale that sale is the most important thing to this guy not me and anything I got to say I'm not even a pilot. Then this great big fat Rich airline pilot that weighed 275 lb went to see this big fat rich guy that owned the airport and buy an airplane. No one would have listened to me if I wanted to tell them the history of America as far as how much people weighed. These three aircraft geniuses with all their credentials ahead of mine and everything else wouldn't hear a word I said if I'd been there. The 250 lb airline pilot and is 250 lb son got in an airplane that was supposed to have a 150 lb in each seat and proceeded to crash. If I had been there I would have gotten them to listen to me but you would almost have to slap someone like that and rub their face on the paperwork for 30 minutes to get them to see that it's a bad idea they're having as an airline pilot.
As a pilot, I've seen this before. No matter how many hours a pilot has, an unsafe pilot is an unsafe pilot. It so often eventually catches up with them. If a pilot has a casual attitude about flying, watch out, it can be deadly!
Agreed! My uncle has his pilot's license (small craft), and is absolutely meticulous. He follows the rules of having enough fuel to make it to an alternate airport. He even was on a flight to Block Island with my dad, and prepping for the return he found a small nick in the prop. may have been safe, but he decided they would take the ferry home and he left the plane to be repaired (NEW prop.). No reason to take a chance..."not like you can pull over if there is a problem" I heard him say on many occasions.
One thing worth noting is that the pilot's family continues to publicly deny his incompetence. They've said such things as "he would never take too little fuel on board." Just utterly sad.
Same thing with entitled children. "Not my Johnny, he's a good boy". A friend's child got away with everything until one night police tracking dogs led straight to his front door. The parents made a generous "donation" and all charges were dropped.
Technically, according to Hoover, there was just enough fuel. I wonder if the family denies the pilot was way off course and used too much fuel to make it to the first " planned" stop.
I did an ASR approach years ago going into Roanoke in night VFR. I did it because the controller requested it so he could remain current. It was very easy and accurate. Took me straight down to the runway. I had about 70 hours at that time.
Being truthful almost always pays off. 45 years ago I admitted I had been drinking. The officer asked if I could make it the 1/4 mile home & let me off. (different time obviously) "No I have never wanted children" got me my beautiful wife of 27 years. Your doctor & lawyer are on your side, what have you got to lose?
@@kamakaziozzie3038 I think they also used privileged communication as evidence a recent high profile trial. On the doctor side, there are certain things that are not as private as you once thought. They're always "screening" for depression--and then you can get red flagged, or if during your physical you say "I drank too much after my father died"--bam, you got substance abuse on your jacket and in the insurance companies find out, or your SSBI investigators, and all kinds of headaches ensue. The worst, though I think out of Canada, is, your doc will rat you out for disagreements on the value of a binary biological bit when discussing your child. Yikes. Same with ATC: once you say something, you can't unsay it, and it leads to hesitance.
@@dicksonfranssen45 years ago it might've worked to be honest and tell the cop you had alcohol but that's a sure path to a DUI these days. Even if you blow under the legal limit they will still charge you. Modern policing is basically revenue generation dressed up like it keeps us safe.
I just finished watching this new debrief and I am so impressed with how well produced the video is. You've definitely upped your game Hoover and it shows. Unfortunately it's another extremely disturbing tragedy due to an arrogant and careless pilot that cost the lives of the five passengers who trusted him. This was truly sickening and totally avoidable. Your attention to detail and quality of these videos really shows how much effort you put into relaying these incidents. Very much appreciated and I look forward to the next debrief!
As a new follower, who just binged almost every video he’s ever made. No he hasn’t changed a thing. He hasn’t updated production or anything. Yes he’s phenomenal and very well spoken and great evaluations but no your brown nosing 😂
@@jmax8692 Are we in high school here? There is no "brown nosing" going on here, just appreciating his efforts and the work that goes into creating these videos. He has always done a great job with these, but I actually have noticed various improvements over time. If you don't see it that's your opinion.
The pilot sounds like a "don't question my judgement" kind of guy. Personally, I like it when people question my judgement. It usually means they've noticed something I've missed. It encourages me to rethink my decisions. I may not change my mind but, at least, I will have considered their position.
I agree. I welcome a persons opinion, review, double checking my numbers, etc. I'm human and make mistakes and appreciate the additional set of eyes, brain(s), and clarification.
Yeah, EXACTLY, you nailed it. And part of the problem is that bad things often don't happen to such people, at least in the short run. This pilot probably got away with it multiple times, not realizing how badly he was defying the odds. People like that are the equivalent of someone who plays Russian Roulette only once. Then he comes out unharmed - as will happen 80 or 83 percent of the time - and somehow concludes, "See? It's not dangerous!" Of course, the rest of us are thinking, yeah, keep playing and find out.
@@6thwilbury2331 Yep. My niece is a chronic tailgater, and a high speed one at that. I wont even get in the car with her. She once told me that she's done it 1000 times and never got in a crash. I tried to explain the physics of it and was like trying to explain economics to a hamster. She actually believes that because she takes risks and hasnt been killed yet is proof of what a great driver she is.
I am retired Air Force. I used to do load planning on cargo planes. I got to a point where I could perfectly balance a C-17 full of various cargo just by looking at the numbers of all of the cargo pieces. When available, I always ran the numbers through the computer. When that was not an option, I worked it on paper. Either way, another load planner and eventually a loadmaster would run the same calculations to verify. It is just common f’ing sense to have redundancies.
Some pilots have 2200hrs. Some pilots have just 1hr experience they've repeated 2200 times. How can anyone look at those instruments for 2200 hrs and not have a curiosity as to how they work! Probably just 2200 hrs launching gliders in the same airspace with little actual navigation and routing skill.
@@simona6229 I'm not a pilot, but as I understand it getting an IFR rating is a bad idea if you're not planning to fly often in IFR conditions because the skills will degrade over time while your belief in them may not. I'm just saying, plenty of people seem to be happy flying exclusively in good weather and I don't see anything wrong with that. I think there were enough mistakes on this flight to upbraid the guy for without having to invent or hypothesize other personal failings to throw into the mix.
ATC did a great job of seeing through his BS, so good dishonesty was less of a factor than you might expect. Ultimately his inability to comply with instructions was his undoing.
This is just tragic, but with all the crazy atc, we have seen in the news, Can we all take a minute and appreciate this controller. He exemplifies the 99.9% of controllers keeping the skys safe everyday.
This whole "DEI hire" legend is stupid, especially in aviation. There are strict training standards in place and enforced. If you fail your training, you fail, regardless of your background. The simplest proof here is, that people, who would not be conidered "DEI hires" by political extremists, crash planes or mess up and continue to do so.
@@Skullair313 Nope! They an and do bend or break standards so that the DEI hires can get the positions. There are punishments for those who do not obey.
Hoover, I’m not a pilot but I put 50,000 miles on a motorcycle since I bought my first one and learned to ride (safely from a buddy who track raced 750s) when I was 55 years old. To not die or get seriously injured on a MC takes let’s say a less “technical” awareness than a plane, but nevertheless a ride-like-a-ninja awareness of speed, spatial awareness &coordination, movement of objects (like 90 y.o. drivers who cannot see, hear or react in a Caddie) and rules of how you manage the road. RESPECT for what you are doing is number one on the road flight checklist. Everytime, since day one, I threw my leg over a motorcycle I am AGATT. All gear all the time. I actually dress like a fighter pilot, full leather jacket with armor, Kevlar jeans, knuckle guard leather gloves, boots, full face helmet, ear plugs. I’m putting my body on top a 1583 cc Harley Davidson low rider engine with two wheels. If any rider cannot understand they are essentially strapping themselves to the landing gear of a jet, they have no business riding - period. I think your show is awesome and so appreciate your approach to pilot safety man. Your background and knowledge is super impressive. Glad I found you. In another post, I will share how I used your approach to pool safety with my little nephews and niece yesterday. The briefing as a riot. - Steve
The worst part of this is knowing that this guy made all the wrong choices, mostly intentionally, and here he had one of the best controllers you could ask for. Pity to think that the effort was lost, and how many other times and places that kind of heroic effort on behalf of the controller would've saved lives. I've heard a dozen stories or more where it came down to "If the controller had realized and given the pilot direction..." Such a shame.
Oh man, with 4 experienced pilots onboard this flight no one spoke up to help, maybe the others did and were ignored, just breaks my heart these lives were taken from the lies that were made, thank you Hoover you always have the best debriefs.
The overestimation of his flying skills were even more fatal than his lies. Many VFR pilots believe being able to fly in IMC with a little simulator experience. Lost in clouds you actually have to suppress senses that send false signals to the brain regarding spatial orientation. This not only requires discipline, but above all a lot of training.
There are always distractions in real life that you won't get on the simulator. Then you get into a situation of uncertainty and trust the seat of your pants.
I remember this one. The pilot had thousands of hours and no instrument rating, neither did the pilot passengers either. A friend told him he was overweight and he lied saying he verified everything. Then he attempts to fly over a thousands miles in bad weather with a overweight plane that is burning through fuel. Also I hope someone relieved that controller because one of his final prompts to Wesley you could tell he knew what happened and he asked him to please respond.
I was trying to figure out if the passengers had IFR, but the fact that none of them seemed to jump into action tells me his ego wouldn't allow help and he kept them all in the dark, or, as you noted, none of them had instrument ratings.
@@culcune None of them were instrument rated and just went along I believe he lied to them. Because he told tower he was able to do IFR flight just like the Lance pilot in another accident. He was flying so erratic that the controller wanted him to land, plus he was burning more fuel from being overweight. At one point he was almost lined up correctly but he was still trying to fly visual thats why he hit the powerlines because he was already below minimum vectorting altitude but the controller needed him to land. The new controller felt bad for him.
what I learnt in university of life that when you need help no shame to ask for it, every body makes mistake, own up to it pay the price and learn not to repeat it, especially in aviation and military where no ample second chances
“U.S. accident statistics reveal that a helicopter pilot who unintentionally continues VFR flight into IMC will very likely lose control of their aircraft and be dead within a median time of 56 seconds." 1) What is the median value for a fixed-wing aircraft in the US? 2) Do polish pilots in the US have statistically significant, worse safety records?
I bet he spoke so calmly because he was trying to keep his passengers in the dark. Bet the back where they were sitting was pretty loud. Hopefully they never had a clue 😢
@@speedygonzales9090 right, but he needed specific help that he didn't ask for. He needed help finding the airport and landing without IFR but he lied about having being IFR rated. It's unbelieve to me how person's pride is so strong that he's willing to risk his own life and the lives of 5 other people rather than admit he's made a serious mistake.
The FAA examiner on my private pilot check ride told me the best life insurance a pilot can buy is an instrument rating. Good advice even if you're mostly flying VFR, but you do need to keep up your IFR proficiency. It could save your life someday. This would have been an easy instrument approach. RIP to all who were lost.
Exactly. The day I got my private license I began my Instrument Rating training. Personally, it just seemed dangerous not to be able to fly competently under reduced weather conditions. Reduced weather conditions are common.
I’m astonished at the level of incompetence here. Did he spend his entire flying “career” within a small group of peers that had similar levels of incompetence? Where were his BFR’s done? How could this incredibly obvious chain of events get past four pilots? Thanks for the higher insurance rates my man.
Hoover, excellent debrief as always. Made me think of the Southern Airways mishap at that same airport in 1970; the pilots descended below MDA and hit the ground about one mile short of the approach end of runway 11 [at the time, now 12]. The Marshall Univ football team was aboard. It was the catalyst for the installation of the GPWS system
I'm always impressed by the patience, knowledge, skill, and attitude of the controllers on these recordings. Imagine the number of lives they've saved that we never hear of because the controllers helped the pilot avert disaster.
Thank you Hoover for another “horrible” video. I am amazed that even though there were all those pilots on board they still couldn’t get their act together. Wishing you all the best from Sydney Australia 🇦🇺 PS I am not a pilot, however, your explanation about what is going on is very clear to me and I appreciate your efforts producing each video very much.
My last logged hours as PIC was in Australia. I got to fly over water (which I hadn't done before) and flew under Sydney's Class B. That was some of the best flying I ever did.
I recently found your channel and love the videos. My dad is a retired commercial pilot, and my brother currently flies the A320 for a major airline. Even though I have no flying experience myself, I've always been interested in flying. I've been fortunate enough to fly to many places in the US and outside the US. I've flown on many different types of aircraft, including the C150, when my brother was in school. Your debriefs are so great. Sometimes I may not understand some technical details, but then you explain what it is and why it's important. Your format of starting with a brief background on the pilot & passengers and then going through the flight in a concise manner is just perfect. You're always respectful of those who were killed and their families. I think your videos are so important because so many pilots can learn something from others mistakes. Keep doing what you're doing! And thank you for all your hard work.
@michaeldenesyk3195 - Sadly, yes... Not always do they cheat and bend the rules like this guy did, but unfortunately, some of them get in over their head, and things like this happen... Complacency and arrogance led up to this situation... The worst part is when there are others in the plane and/or on the ground, who also can get hurt / killed...The pilot should have listened to and considered the questions his buddy asked him before making the flight... BTW, The worst aviation crash in history, was caused by an Arrogant KLM pilot who would NOT listen to or even consider consulting, his co-pilot and flight engineer, who were pleading him : NOT to take-off... That claimed 583 lives, all because he refused to listen and check with his other compadres in the cockpit... That happened in Teneriffe, Los Rodeos Airport, a vacation resort island just outside of Spain 3/27/1977... What was the date of this PA-34 crash, does anybody here know? 0:03 0:03
If you're a pilot you know how frustrating it is to be sharing the sky with these types of pilots. They are constantly creating dangerous situations not only for themselves but everyone around them. Most of these videos that I watch it seems like the pilots are literally TRYING to die. The best thing to do in these situations is to call ATC and say "im an idiot and i made stupid choices but i need to get these people on the ground safely".
I can tell you how frustrating it is to live on the ground with these ass-hats flying over you and your family- most with no insurance. Just a bunch of posers putting everyone around them at risk.
You could definitely hear the resignation in his voice. He gave up. Would be better to have been a bug on the outside of the windshield than a smudge on the inside.😢
@@57Jimmy The chump probably never had to struggle for anything in his life. So just giving up so easily just comes naturally to someone who doesn't know what struggling feels like. But in doing so, the assclown also gave up on everyone else's life in the plane. And that is unacceptable. Yet his family insists he did nothing wrong. Pathetic.
I always do stuff last minute, i almost always get away with doing little preparation and most people like and respect me but I hate routine and would be an unsafe pilot. Thankfully I can watch and enjoy this while drinking red wine in England. Lots of love to all.
I admire aviation and those who have acquired the skills necessary to fly. This video shows there are a lot of dangerously incompetent people who operate as pilots. Very scary to see people acting so recklessly.
First of all, I commend you for the professional manner you handle these debriefs. Having attended hundreds and hundreds of them myself, I don't think I have ever heard better presentation and attention to detail. I made my fair share of mistakes in my 30 years as a military pilot, and tactical operations officer, but when I watched this de-brief, I was frankly speechless! Pretty much beyond belief. Keep up the good work!
I’ve only just recently found your channel and I am obsessed with the educational details you give, as well as the absolute respect you show not only to passengers on the plane, but even to the pilots who at times might at times understandably make errors in these obviously terrifying situations. I’m glad you are helping to teach pilots of all ages ideas/procedures to follow if they ever get in bad situations. Some of it will sink in and I can almost guarantee pilots have watched your videos and after having issues said to themselves, “Phew, I remember Hoover mentioning that one time and so remembered what to do.” Keep up the great work!
How can 4 "pilots" agree to go VFR from IL to FL? That's Nuts 🥜 in itself. I have flown the Seneca IFR and it's a handful. If I remember the only "anti ice" you have is Pitot heat. That's about it. This guy was in it way over his head...
This was a heroic attempt by ATC trying to save lives who realized quickly that either the pilot was lying about IFR qualifications or was drunk out of his mind. I also wonder about the shock of the other pilots on the plane overhearing that the pilot in command was such an incompetent lying asshole.
If Wesley had kept his eyes on the altimeter and compass, and followed the controller's instructions, he would probably have made it. Whoever was in the right seat didn't help, which is very odd. We're our own worst enemies when we're too proud to admit mistakes and lies.
His vision needed to be primarily focused on his attitude indicator. Wings level, on the horizon. Turn with a predetermined angle of bank, monitored by looking at the attitude indicator. When done turning, wings back to level by looking at the attitude indicator. If the plane was trimmed correctly, he could have just let go of the yoke to allow it to go back to normal cruise flight. And he could have verified this by looking at the attitude indicator. It's actually not that difficult.
I think the fact that it was a local flying club explains a lot, and I'm sure if you looked at the average safety habits in that club you'd be horrified. Safety is something that needs to be actively maintained. That's a level of effort many people who see aviation as a hobby first don't really seem to fully understand.
Ego, lies and flying are not a good mixture. I'm thinking he lied to his friends that he's IFR rated and was willing to kill everyone rather than fess up to it.
I made several of my ifr training flights on the way to go skiing. IFR was canceled 15 minutes before landing due to no nav aids but the instructor gave me directions "30° left, heading 090...". Anybody with another pilot on board can practice it.
Hi Hoover, I can't decide whether I like your videos or not. I have an ATPL which is now well expired and watch your videos through a love for flying and am shocked and dismayed at the disasters which unfold which you so perfectly decipher. I struggle to understand how these pilots set off without taking into account the weather or their ability to make the flight. The result is inevitably catastrophic and so sad to learn of the various loss of life. I hope your videos make pilots stop and think about what they are doing, I applaud you for your determined efforts to enlighten and encourage others to think clearly about what they are about to under take. Good work as ever.
I can't understand why someone would get multi engine certified and not do IFR. Between IMC and access to controlled airspace, I can't see flying a twin without one.
Indeed, perhaps things are significantly different in the US than Australia where I am but it boggles the mind that you could be multi engine rated but not have progressed through instrument certification somewhere in your training.
@@albertsampson6568Not an excuse, pal. And wasn't the case with this clown. There is absolutely no excuse for having a multi engine rating allowing you to fly bigger planes with more people yet not have an instrument rating. Its that simple.
I haven't flown in a long time but when I was flying, I never would have thought as you mentioned, to have someone else review a flight plan for me. I've never even heard of that but that makes great sense and it would have made me feel more confident in some of my longer trips. I wish I would have thought of that or heard of it in the past. Great tip, especially for newer or low time pilots.
I am not a pilot at all, and do not intend to be, but in this particular case it seemed like the perfect opportunity to have one or all of the passengers who are pilots look over the flight plan. Could have changed things which could have ultimately saved all 6 lives.
I had gotten my private single engine land certificate and taking a cross country flight to an airport that I hadn't been to. I asked a CFI to review my flight plan. I got ridiculed being told that didn't I know that I no longer needed my flight plans reviewed. I told him yes but that I hadn't been to that airport before. He then got off his high-horse and gave me a good piece of advice for that flight....when I get the river (being the Colorado River), turn right. That's all he needed to do and not ridicule me.
From the screen shot of Dobrzanski's credentials, his last FAA medical exam shows a Second Class medical certificate date of November 30, 2006. So, my question became when did this crash take place? A simple search reports that this crash happened on January 30, 2009. Dobrzanski's Second Class medical certificate, if not renewed to Second Class status would have defaulted to a Third Class medical certificate after 12 calendar months. This Third Class medical certificate would have expired after 24 calendar months. So, Dobrzanski was out of medical certification after November 30, 2008. He was flying that aircraft on certificates that would have required at least a Third Class medical certificate. Paperwork technicality, or did Dobrzanski know that he had medical issues? Even though this crash happened 15 years ago, every single aspect of contributing factors could repeat themselves today. Good review, Hoover.
@@igclapp I'm not clear of the history of the duration of the Third Class medical certificate. Before I could solo back in the spring of 1975, I had to get a Third Class medical certificate, which doubled as a Student Pilot Certificate. At that time, it was valid for 24 calendar months. Today, a Third Class medical for someone that has NOT reached their 40th birthday is 24 calendar months. If there were changes in the duration of medical certificates (other than by airman age) between 1975 and today, I'm not aware of them.
@@EJWash57 I checked my old third class medicals and I got one in 1988 and the next in 1990. So they were good for two years. That sparks my memory that at the time, second class were good for one year and first class for six months.
What's shocking to me is that you can be a VFR pilot for decades and never get to understand how basic instruments work. And this is not the first time I'm hearing that.
I've only ever been a passenger on a plane about ten times in my forty year life. I don't know anything about planes, but I love watching your videos because they're so interesting and easy for me to understand. Thank you for such cool content and for educating me. ❤
Great dBrief, as always. You made a comment about the other pilots and how nobody mentioned concern. On one hand that surprises me. On the other hand, I’m a member of several flying forums online. The amount of arrogant and demeaning comments by pilots, presumably, Toward other pilots who err on the side of safety is surprising. Which, unfortunately, means I’m less surprised when I find there are pilots who don’t question other pilots. This is something we have to fix.
How about arrogance and demeaning comments from CFIs? I had my certificate and had flown a rented plane to another local airport. When doing the run-up for the return flight, the magnetos failed the differential check. I grounded the plane and took a taxi home. I went to the FBO the next day to report what happened. I was ridiculed by the CFIs and asked what I thought the second magneto was for? Oh my goodness, they were CFIs! I thought the second magneto was in case one failed DURING FLIGHT, not to purposefully take off with one not working.
I was in a similar situation in a new Piper Archer II (PA-28-181) about 35 years ago when flying VFR from Denver to Tulsa, OK with one friend who was also a student pilot. Was a night long XC flight from KDEN to KTUL and I ended up IFR on top at night (winter and the whole plains area closed in quickly at night). I had no destination options due to very low fuel and my passenger left the enroute APPROACH PLATES on the wing in Colorado when getting in the aircraft. Even though I was a low time pilot at the time (had maybe 200 to 250 hours), I kept my cool, I totally admitted my situation to Tulsa Approach Control and I asked for an ASR (approach surveillance radar) guided approach. I asked Approach Control for the KTUL designated runway ILS approach profile, with ILS frequency, course, marker distances, the FAF and MDA altitudes, and missed approach information. I actually quickly drafted the approach on paper and set up COM 1 with the ILS while following precision heading/altitude instructions from ATC... Needless to say the ATIS was saying TULSA was ZERO VISIBILITY, ZERO RVR and FOG! However we made it, landed centerline with basically visibility whatsoever until touchdown! FYI - going around or MIP was not an option as due to radar vectors for and lining up for the ILS approach left zero fuel available. This was the scariest thing I experienced while flying because I was almost out of fuel with NO OPTIONS at all. Honestly I am lucky to still be here, but I kept my cool and asked for help! IT WAS A LEARNING EXPERIENCE! BIG THANK YOU TO THE FAA ATC GROUP IN TULSA OKLAHOMA. No pilot deviation reported, no letter and no call to ATC was needed. (Written Without Prejudice). ;-)
You have to recognize your limitations. None of the pax intervened and told him to do a 180 to remain VFR and just land, check wx, get fuel and go home if it is solid IFR down the path. 6 people was simply too many for the Seneca 2. I would not have made the trip with no instrument rating anyway.
Fly it by the numbers. Take pride in being humble. Always over train and as any boy scout will tell you be prepared! Every flight is a test between how prepared you are and how prepared you think you are. A whole psychology paper could be written on how 4 pilots could allow this to happen.
Such a tragedy. How so many pilots on board let this flight progress let alone get off the ground? Procedures are in place to avoid situations like this.
I remember this crash all too well - HTS is my home airport. The controllers tried everything they could and if you listen to the full tapes you can hear the worry, pain, and frustration in their (familiar) voices as they desperately tried every trick in the book to talk this guy down to the runway. Throw in the fact the weather was absolutely miserable that day; I still can't figure how someone would take off without even a cursory glance at the weather radar, much less a REAL brief, that would have clearly shown how bad it was. And this was in the "flat" part of the state...his "planned" route was going to take him over even worse conditions.
Good debrief Hoover. The controller made a good choice to switch to no gyro ASR or PAR if near a military base. The pilot knew he could not fly IMC before he left. Just with that knowledge and not being distracted by other options, the only survivable late decision he could have made was to stay in visual contact with the ground (stay low) until a road or field came into view and land. I hate snow, VMC or IMC. It is very distracting so that IMC is better if we are rated and confident. IFR/IMC is so much safer for those current and confident. For all others it is almost always fatal. For all others, including this pilot, staying in contact with the ground (low) is the only way to survive marginal conditions. One thing I dislike about the integrated instrument contact flying orientation that came into vogue about the time I started instructing is that it glossed over the absolute need to separate VMC/contact and IMC/instrument flying. They are two different worlds and never the twain shall meet. Even if the computer is flying IMC, the pilot has to have full confidence in the computer. And if VMC, the pilot needs to almost totally rely on contact with the surface for situational awareness. Aviate. Yes, the goodies help with navigate and communicate. No, they do not keep us from hitting stuff or falling out of the sky unless rated and competent. But flying by reference to instruments when in a maneuvering or crowded VFR situation is almost as dangerous as flying IMC when not current and confident. The safest way to fly marginal weather is IFR/IMC. The safest way to fly VFR/VMC in marginal weather is as low as necessary to see well and avoid stuff.
Part of the problem was Milgrams proofs. People will defer to a figure in authority to the point of allowing that authority to kill them. There's also the West Slavic mentality. As someone who has Polish ancestry, I know this well.😔
According to the local papers the 'PIC' was a retired engineer. That while taxiing he was stopped and questioned by a local on the field since his rims were almost touching the ground. He also flew a leg of sightseeing over and around Chicago before finally heading for his first destination airport. 3 inches out of CG doesn't like much but that's over 50% of the CG range behind the aft limit. It's unfortunate that he managed to even get it off the ground.
Though the outcome is almost always tragic in Hoover's videos, I usually come away with the feeling that the unsung heroes, despite the outcome, are the controllers who do their damndest with calmness and professionalism to assist pilots in dire straits.
Hey Hoover, love your videos, currently going through them while I'm working. Recently listened to your video explaining more of your background in the military and your motives for the channel. I love your breakdowns of the causes and technical factors in these incidents. My advice from a consumers prospective is to keep in mind your viewers that are only listening when displaying pictures or videos. Any extra narration is greatly appreciated. Thank you!
Hoover, I must say these debrief videos are excellent. I just earned my PPL in June, and I've wondered a few times (God forbid) if I was to ever find myself in this type of situation. Being open an honest with ATC should never be questioned, but the best offense is a good defense, and I would never execute a flight I know I couldn't handle. Looking forward to all future videos, and thanks again.
Flew out of HTS (and several nearby VFR airports) from 1965 until 1996 when I had to quit due to a medical issue. I instructed there for about 8 of those years. The surrounding terrain is rugged and wooded. Sadly, the entire Marshall University football team died in 1970 when their DC-9 crashed on a localizer (non-precision) approach to runway 12 into a hillside just short of the runway. I went to the hilltop right after the crash where the plane hit the tops of some very tall black locust trees. The runway has since been extended and has a full ILS approach.
Wesley was the pilot in command and had enough experience to know better than to make the choices that led to this terrible tragedy. If you want to see what happens when an 18-year-old student pilot takes off on a rogue flight at 4am and overflies a military base then watch this debrief 👉 th-cam.com/video/jCu1ykQNBpc/w-d-xo.html
I'm not a pilot. But I love your channel and the respect to show to all the pilots that take flying serious. Also you are super responsible when talking about these terrible tragedies
Hoover - Is it considered rude as a passenger to ask to see a pilot’s flight and plane qualifications, flight plan as well as the alternate landing/approach plan, and the plane’s maintenance records and the total weight before boarding? It seems many passengers in these debriefs just blindly trust the pilots to do the right thing.
Another excellent debrief. You covered all the bases well. One thought, when the controller first reported the field IFR, the pilot could have requested a special VFR entry into class D airspace but instead the controller simply advised the airport as IFR. Regardless, with a snow storm in their route of flight, attempting a VFR cross country is certainly not advisable.
@@bloomingale7868 Not at all. If I was your pilot I would be more than happy to spend an hour going through all of that with you no problem at all. It might have to be done the day before though because the morning/day of the flight is (should be) a busy time for a pilot making all the necessary preparations.
Of course.
It never ceases to amaze me how many of these pilots don’t know how to use everything on board the planes they fly.
Quite and it's not exactly a 747 either
You're equating a VFR rated pilot with an IFR situation. This plane should've never left the ground. Then the pilot (who wasn't IFR rated) got himself into a situation he couldn't handle and likely didn't have the knowledge or skills to use everything the plane offered to save the flight. Unfortunately, no other pilot helped or perhaps was also not qualified.
221 x
And that’s where I think the VFR certification really fails the pilot. So much stress on looking out the window and referencing the horizon to know what we are doing while the whole time we have multiple instruments inside the plane that will tell us what the plane is doing, even if one of them fail, you have a few other things to reference. Personally, I think VFR should be a hybrid of VFR and IFR. Maybe not full IFR qualified but definitely proficient in using your instruments.
I've been following your channel for about a year now and my stomach gets in a knot listening to every accident breakdown. I flew privately for 30+ years and decided to stop cold turkey about 10yrs ago after realizing I was losing my "edge", making too many little dumb mistakes that I had read about in so many post-accident reports. I miss the challenge of flying safely, but don't regret knowing when my last flight occurred.
Keep up the good work.
@Sseaplane6950 I am impressed by your self assessment. So many people can not do that even for driving a vehicle. Well done.
Good for you. It's far better to choose what will be your final flight than to have circumstances make that choice for you.
"Quit cold turkey" 😂.
Good decision! I made the same choice a few years ago, I wasn't flying enough to be at the top of my game. Just being current isn't enough. BTW, I'm instrument rated but would file a flight plan for XC even on hard VFR days (not a cloud in the sky). It was especially handy in Addison TX (KADS) flying south as they could just route me straight through the Class B airspace, as well as tell me about traffic.
Good decision and remember, there is never a good reason to regret being able to talk about your last flight. Beats the hell out of the alternative.
"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth, and sooner or later that debt is paid"
thats an interesting quote, that i had not heard.
@@Rowganlife That is a quote from the Chernobyl series, during the addressing of the explosion by the head scientist. This pilot guy went full eastern europe right there.
"The truth is not what you want it to be, it is what it is. You must bend to its power, or live a lie" - Miyamoto Musashi
As the Bible says, what’s done in darkness always comes to light
I like that!!!
As a retired air traffic controller I was always shocked that VFR pilots would wait until the last minute to ask for help, like we were their last choice. I practiced performing surveillance monthly and had performed multiple actual surveillance approaches. I don't understand why the FAA has eliminated surveillance approach requirements at most airports when this is such a valuable tool in our controller arsenal.
@mikeramsey,
"I don't understand why the FFA ..."
Mike, let's keep it simple: Where is the FFA located ?"
As it's pronounced here in Missoula Montana..."WaRshington".
The Swamp does not begin to describe the disfunction... ☆
You must have some unbelievable stories. I hope you are enjoying your retirement.
@@fjb4932I love how nuance just goes out the window with you guys.
@@fjb4932You people are the problem
@@fjb4932Dumb comment
1) government dysfunction isnt just related to DC. Plenty of state AND local governments are inept (yes, that applues to both blue AND red states)
2) we in the US just re-elected a guy whose OWN people from his first administration called an "idiot" and a "moron" and basically incapable if doing even the most simple if tasks. Not to mention causing exceptionally grave damage to our national security by stealing classified information post-presidency and then lying to law enforcement about it. So yeah, we just elected the king of the swamp.
Why do I keep hearing the same words & phrases, *no flight plan, no instrument rating, incorrect weight & balance, other pilots on board & no one speaks up?* The controller did a masterful job and still six people died for no good reason.
Those are all the holes in the swiss cheese.
No one speaks up because they weren't sure if they had the popular opinion. That's what lemmings do. They say and do whatever they _feel_ will be most popular.
There was one Cessna 172 flight when I was 15 years old where I'm lucky this didn't happen to me. This was in the mid-80s, the airport was small but took a few 737 flights a day and was controlled. My 16 year old friend had a pilot's license (so he said), and invited me to take a flight with him. I don't know who the plane even belonged to, he said vaguely that it was owned by his family. This guy did no preflight checks and never even looked at a checklist. He said that he knew "from last time" that it had enough fuel. On the taxi out to the runway, he keyed the mic, did some talking, and muttered, "This f***ing radio is still broken." We took off without clearance, did some flying around near the airport for about half an hour, and then came back and landed without clearance. I feel lucky now that we weren't arrested on the ramp. For that matter, I'm just happy that we didn't crash due to low fuel.
A few days later, I saw a TV documentary hosted by a guy, "Let's take a Cessna 172 flight!" As I'm watching him do all these preps, the walk-around, take samples from the wing tanks ("You want to make sure that the fuel is a nice sky-blue color with no particulates or other contamination!"), and run checklists prior to flight, I realized that my friend didn't do any of this. He didn't even check the fuel level. I realized that he didn't do anything, we just hopped in like a car and off we went. After that, I turned down all offers to go flying with him again. I don't know if he ever got in trouble for any of this. He moved away a year after this and I don't know what ever came of him.
I'm a newish vfr 60 year old pilot and this stuff drives me crazy. I own a Mooney and if I ever have a question about my flight, I ask before I rotate.
@user-tz3dy7mt9e
No doubt. Totally crazy!
I’m 71, at 22 I worked on my Private. Got 40 hours with instructor, 3 hours solo. Passed the FAA written. I stopped. Realized that flying unless you did it a lot, was very dangerous. I won’t fly in a small plane. Learned a lot. Unless military trained very dangerous. Enjoy these briefs.
Completely agree with your logic I am an A&P mechanic and was on a job interview years ago & the guy who interviewed me was ex-Marine Corp pilot and he gave me the best advice regarding becoming a pilot
"Unless you can fly at least 3 times per month to stay proficient, you are more dangerous to yourself & people on the ground"
These flying accident videos are just incredible as to the arrogance & the "know it all" attitude of some people!!
Weight & Balance is everything, then to top it off "Yes I am IFR capable" statement to the airport controller & innocent people died
It probably wasn’t this guy’s first time bending the rules. It’s surprising he lived as long as he did, in my opinion.
Well, even if you break the rules, it often still works out... until it doesn't. That's why we should not break them.
Probably 2200 hrs of day trips and overnights to local airports. Like sailing around the bay for years and then deciding to hit open water down the coast for a day. With clouds on the horizon.
I have a friend whose father has been a corner-cutter and rule-bender/breaker for all of his 72 years. He truly shouldn't still be alive or at least not have all of his limbs with the dumb choices he's made but somehow he lives in a weird state of grace that protects him. The funny thing is that my friend, growing up with that as a role model, thought that was how to do things but every time he tried cheating, he got caught and faced the consequences until he learned that honesty is the best policy.
It's a cultural thing.
You see this all the time with driving. Speeding, running red lights, etc. Every time you get away with it, you grow more confident.
Then you see the scene I saw yesterday. Two crushed cars in an intersection with several ambulances and fire trucks responding
Good on the ATC to recognize that the pilot clearly didn't know how to land IFR and try to help where he could. His instructions on the surveillance approach were clear...Wesley just lacked the ability, or willingness, to follow them properly. I hope ATC gets any help he needs to cope with this aircraft being lost on his watch. He did what he could.
This I also will never understand. I am not a pilot, but since I was 13yrs old, I am 55 now, I've been playing MS FlightSim. Back in those days with MS FS 2 there was not much to see, so I learned how to use NDBs, VORs, ILS etc. looking up the frequencies from charts, planning flight routes and so on. I was just gaming. But how can someone actually flying a real plane not be into such things? I mean, there is no magic necessary to use that.
One of the best small charter pilots I ever met was retired USN and zero BS. He had a luggage and a separate person scale in his hanger. If he doubted what you claimed..scale time. He carried a small portable one in all three of his aircrafts because return can be worse with the same people
Totally agree. EVERY plane/pilot should be required to have scales and weigh EVERYTHING. If someone finds that too intrusive, fine. WALK!
Everyones safety is far more important than anyones vanity!
Over my career, I got lied to so much about weight that out of self preservation I carried my own scale
I'm a 99. I went on a day flight with a pilot and three passengers. We would be limited on the weight of our luggage (our purses). Not wanting to admit my true body weight, I told the pilot I weighed 110 but my purse weighed 45 pounds. (P.S. She got the joke.)
@@gingerhiser7312 Please forgive me ignorance, but what does 'I'm a 99" mean?
@@bikeny International women's pilot organization. I mentioned that because all passengers were pilots and knew the importance of weight and balance. P.S. they got my joke.
Don't really know why this channel first came to my attention, but even as a non-pilot, I find Hoover's videos fascinating. I won't pretend I understand all the technical details, which makes it all the more impressive that I always watch his debriefs all the way through.
Dont really know how? God you're dumb its because you spend your entire life online kid
Same
Same
Same
When you deny you're in trouble, you're in BIG trouble.
Simply put, but so true.
Well said
Arrogance…..
I'm not in trouble.
I'm not in trouble.
There are pilots like this guy at every airport. We have one who almost never left the local area but feel he is the expert of everything aviation, giving advice on navigation, etc yet he rarely used more than 5 gallons of fuel in each flight. He has the latest navigation and autopilot avionics but he often struggled to use it for more than keeping heading. Anything more complicated got him flustered.
Let me guess, he has an experimental home built.
An empty wagon makes the most noise.
The most tragic thing is that I started to listen to the video and had that deja vu "wait a minute, he did a video about this already? no? wait... no... it is another story, but every element is repeated, rogue pilot, 5 passengers...." That is truly tragic
Yeah i thought the exact same thing. One more element is that this guy probably did not understand English that well, in Chicago we have a lot of folks like this where so few people speak English, particularly older folks, that when it gets stressful they simply can't communicate. Obviously was a factor here
I’m there right now. The military base is a different precious story tho, right?
@@PukeyMcDork😢
dude spoke better English (barely) than he could fly.
ok if i ever do a single engine flight again its only with you
Airplanes are terribly unforgiving to cocky people and that's the only thing which could explain that man's ignorance.
Criminal. Not only is there no reason for this to happen, it is the highest form of gross negligence and misconduct imaginable. I feel so sad for the young woman and her father. And shame on the other pilots for their culpability in this manslaughter.
Especially culpable if any had an instrument rating.
8:40. "It's better to get in a little bit of trouble than to end up dead." Wisdom.
Five other people died because of one man's ego issues.
Wreck is so mangled, I thought the thumbnail was a burned out tank from 'The Tank Museum' Channel.
Wesley didn't have an instrument rating, but what about the other pilots aboard?
It seems likely that ego was really the root cause. With four other extremely experienced pilots on board, Wesley was probably under an intense amount of self-induced pressure to perform. All of his bonkers decisions make perfect sense in the context of a man trying to prove and display his independence and ability in front of his peers in the field. What a senseless loss.
Hey Hoover
I get to charter lots of aircraft for my clients and often get to ride along into remote areas.
Your channel has taken my awareness 5 levels up. I now have a serious set of questions ahead of every trip, that makes it very clear to both pilot and charter firm that we expect everyone to engage their brains on all aspects and have plans A, B and C in place before anyone gets on their flight.
I know it annoys them, but I don't care. 95% of your videos show arrogance meets incompetence at the worst possible moments.
That is fantastic to read. I hope that your clients really appreciate the extra safety that you insist on. Impressive!
That's how it should be! Safety First isn't an empty phrase. It came about for a reason. Thank you!
Pk
Pilots are hard of listening and ego pardoned because they have to keep flying no matter what mistake they make so none of it counts none of it counts none of it counts. If you had a lot of second-guessing in your personality and hesitation it would be very difficult to fly or to wish to fly. I just watched three people who are hard of listening and had I been there they be dead anyway. This guy got so much money he owned an airport and was selling an antique airplane and he is not wanting to hear a single word out of me that my queer a sale he wants that sale he'll make that sale that sale is the most important thing to this guy not me and anything I got to say I'm not even a pilot. Then this great big fat Rich airline pilot that weighed 275 lb went to see this big fat rich guy that owned the airport and buy an airplane. No one would have listened to me if I wanted to tell them the history of America as far as how much people weighed. These three aircraft geniuses with all their credentials ahead of mine and everything else wouldn't hear a word I said if I'd been there. The 250 lb airline pilot and is 250 lb son got in an airplane that was supposed to have a 150 lb in each seat and proceeded to crash. If I had been there I would have gotten them to listen to me but you would almost have to slap someone like that and rub their face on the paperwork for 30 minutes to get them to see that it's a bad idea they're having as an airline pilot.
As a pilot, I've seen this before. No matter how many hours a pilot has, an unsafe pilot is an unsafe pilot. It so often eventually catches up with them. If a pilot has a casual attitude about flying, watch out, it can be deadly!
Agreed! My uncle has his pilot's license (small craft), and is absolutely meticulous. He follows the rules of having enough fuel to make it to an alternate airport. He even was on a flight to Block Island with my dad, and prepping for the return he found a small nick in the prop. may have been safe, but he decided they would take the ferry home and he left the plane to be repaired (NEW prop.). No reason to take a chance..."not like you can pull over if there is a problem" I heard him say on many occasions.
Casual... Hell no'.. the guy was a dam liar and pretender. Thats all.
One thing worth noting is that the pilot's family continues to publicly deny his incompetence. They've said such things as "he would never take too little fuel on board." Just utterly sad.
Stupidity must run in the family because the lack of fuel was pretty easy to prove.
Because they can't believe their hero, the one who paid all their bills, was really an arrogant dumb ass and a killer of 5 people plus himself.
Same thing with entitled children. "Not my Johnny, he's a good boy". A friend's child got away with everything until one night police tracking dogs led straight to his front door. The parents made a generous "donation" and all charges were dropped.
😮@@dicksonfranssen
Technically, according to Hoover, there was just enough fuel.
I wonder if the family denies the pilot was way off course and used too much fuel to make it to the first " planned" stop.
I did an ASR approach years ago going into Roanoke in night VFR. I did it because the controller requested it so he could remain current. It was very easy and accurate. Took me straight down to the runway. I had about 70 hours at that time.
I did the same thing into Green Bay one night many years ago. Even did no-gyro procedures. Worked like a charm.
Lying to air traffic is like lying to your doctor or lawyer. Probably will end up with you dead or in jail.
Being truthful almost always pays off. 45 years ago I admitted I had been drinking. The officer asked if I could make it the 1/4 mile home & let me off. (different time obviously) "No I have never wanted children" got me my beautiful wife of 27 years. Your doctor & lawyer are on your side, what have you got to lose?
Too bad client privilege is under attack, because you’re right,
@@DrDeuteronI’ve noticed that as well. Going after attorneys because they represent unpopular clients is a scary turn of events
@@kamakaziozzie3038 I think they also used privileged communication as evidence a recent high profile trial.
On the doctor side, there are certain things that are not as private as you once thought. They're always "screening" for depression--and then you can get red flagged, or if during your physical you say "I drank too much after my father died"--bam, you got substance abuse on your jacket and in the insurance companies find out, or your SSBI investigators, and all kinds of headaches ensue.
The worst, though I think out of Canada, is, your doc will rat you out for disagreements on the value of a binary biological bit when discussing your child. Yikes.
Same with ATC: once you say something, you can't unsay it, and it leads to hesitance.
@@dicksonfranssen45 years ago it might've worked to be honest and tell the cop you had alcohol but that's a sure path to a DUI these days. Even if you blow under the legal limit they will still charge you. Modern policing is basically revenue generation dressed up like it keeps us safe.
I used to be a part time weight and balance guy for an aviation company, always shocked me the disregard some pilots had for balancing and the MAC
I just finished watching this new debrief and I am so impressed with how well produced the video is. You've definitely upped your game Hoover and it shows. Unfortunately it's another extremely disturbing tragedy due to an arrogant and careless pilot that cost the lives of the five passengers who trusted him. This was truly sickening and totally avoidable. Your attention to detail and quality of these videos really shows how much effort you put into relaying these incidents. Very much appreciated and I look forward to the next debrief!
As a new follower, who just binged almost every video he’s ever made. No he hasn’t changed a thing. He hasn’t updated production or anything. Yes he’s phenomenal and very well spoken and great evaluations but no your brown nosing 😂
@@jmax8692*you’re. 😉
He is one of the best aviation TH-camrs , right there with Juan Brown from Blancolirio.
@@jmax8692 Are we in high school here? There is no "brown nosing" going on here, just appreciating his efforts and the work that goes into creating these videos. He has always done a great job with these, but I actually have noticed various improvements over time. If you don't see it that's your opinion.
Several of the "passengers that trusted him" were also pilots, so it seems that they might not have been ~innocent.
The pilot sounds like a "don't question my judgement" kind of guy. Personally, I like it when people question my judgement. It usually means they've noticed something I've missed. It encourages me to rethink my decisions. I may not change my mind but, at least, I will have considered their position.
I agree. I welcome a persons opinion, review, double checking my numbers, etc. I'm human and make mistakes and appreciate the additional set of eyes, brain(s), and clarification.
"Bad things dont happen to me because I'm special and unique. Bad things happen to other people, not a main character like me"
Yeah, EXACTLY, you nailed it. And part of the problem is that bad things often don't happen to such people, at least in the short run. This pilot probably got away with it multiple times, not realizing how badly he was defying the odds.
People like that are the equivalent of someone who plays Russian Roulette only once. Then he comes out unharmed - as will happen 80 or 83 percent of the time - and somehow concludes, "See? It's not dangerous!" Of course, the rest of us are thinking, yeah, keep playing and find out.
@@6thwilbury2331 Yep. My niece is a chronic tailgater, and a high speed one at that. I wont even get in the car with her. She once told me that she's done it 1000 times and never got in a crash. I tried to explain the physics of it and was like trying to explain economics to a hamster. She actually believes that because she takes risks and hasnt been killed yet is proof of what a great driver she is.
I am retired Air Force. I used to do load planning on cargo planes. I got to a point where I could perfectly balance a C-17 full of various cargo just by looking at the numbers of all of the cargo pieces. When available, I always ran the numbers through the computer. When that was not an option, I worked it on paper. Either way, another load planner and eventually a loadmaster would run the same calculations to verify. It is just common f’ing sense to have redundancies.
45 years of complete incompetence.
Some pilots have 2200hrs. Some pilots have just 1hr experience they've repeated 2200 times. How can anyone look at those instruments for 2200 hrs and not have a curiosity as to how they work! Probably just 2200 hrs launching gliders in the same airspace with little actual navigation and routing skill.
Spot on!
@@simona6229 _"Dem button are purtty. What dey do?"_
Some people have 45 years of growing experience while others have one year of incompetence repeated 45 times.
@@simona6229 I'm not a pilot, but as I understand it getting an IFR rating is a bad idea if you're not planning to fly often in IFR conditions because the skills will degrade over time while your belief in them may not. I'm just saying, plenty of people seem to be happy flying exclusively in good weather and I don't see anything wrong with that. I think there were enough mistakes on this flight to upbraid the guy for without having to invent or hypothesize other personal failings to throw into the mix.
There's nothing worse than being stupid with other people's lives in your hands.
And just imagine the ensuing lawsuits! This guy was a total jerk.
I couldn't bring myself to watch after he lied about being IFR capable. This is beyond words.
It gets worse.
He obviously was concerned about preserving his reputation, not his and passengers' lives.
Along the list of things to set yourself up for failure, I don’t think he missed many boxes……. Sad.
Same here. Currently stopped at 9.13
ATC did a great job of seeing through his BS, so good dishonesty was less of a factor than you might expect. Ultimately his inability to comply with instructions was his undoing.
This is just tragic, but with all the crazy atc, we have seen in the news, Can we all take a minute and appreciate this controller. He exemplifies the 99.9% of controllers keeping the skys safe everyday.
you can tell just from the voice that he's competent and not a DEI hire.
This whole "DEI hire" legend is stupid, especially in aviation. There are strict training standards in place and enforced. If you fail your training, you fail, regardless of your background.
The simplest proof here is, that people, who would not be conidered "DEI hires" by political extremists, crash planes or mess up and continue to do so.
@@Skullair313 Nope! They an and do bend or break standards so that the DEI hires can get the positions. There are punishments for those who do not obey.
Finally, an ATC I can actually understand.
Hoover, I’m not a pilot but I put 50,000 miles on a motorcycle since I bought my first one and learned to ride (safely from a buddy who track raced 750s) when I was 55 years old. To not die or get seriously injured on a MC takes let’s say a less “technical” awareness than a plane, but nevertheless a ride-like-a-ninja awareness of speed, spatial awareness &coordination, movement of objects (like 90 y.o. drivers who cannot see, hear or react in a Caddie) and rules of how you manage the road. RESPECT for what you are doing is number one on the road flight checklist.
Everytime, since day one, I threw my leg over a motorcycle I am AGATT. All gear all the time. I actually dress like a fighter pilot, full leather jacket with armor, Kevlar jeans, knuckle guard leather gloves, boots, full face helmet, ear plugs.
I’m putting my body on top a 1583 cc Harley Davidson low rider engine with two wheels. If any rider cannot understand they are essentially strapping themselves to the landing gear of a jet, they have no business riding - period.
I think your show is awesome and so appreciate your approach to pilot safety man. Your background and knowledge is super impressive. Glad I found you.
In another post, I will share how I used your approach to pool safety with my little nephews and niece yesterday. The briefing as a riot. - Steve
The worst part of this is knowing that this guy made all the wrong choices, mostly intentionally, and here he had one of the best controllers you could ask for. Pity to think that the effort was lost, and how many other times and places that kind of heroic effort on behalf of the controller would've saved lives. I've heard a dozen stories or more where it came down to "If the controller had realized and given the pilot direction..." Such a shame.
After all these instructions, the pilot didn't have any clue as to what he was doing, worst of all his lies killed 5 people.
On the other hand, they as pilots themselves made some very poor decisions too
And those passengers were pilots too.
Oh man, with 4 experienced pilots onboard this flight no one spoke up to help, maybe the others did and were ignored, just breaks my heart these lives were taken from the lies that were made, thank you Hoover you always have the best debriefs.
Could be that they all had the same lack of training that our suicide jockey had.
Polly,,,, there's a good chance at least 1 spoke up, but were they IFR rated? Thats the key here I reckon. We will never know,,,,,,,,,,,, RIP tp all!.
I suspect the pilot concealed the situation from the others which is why he was speaking so calmly.
I think in their culture the pushiest guy gets his way. They value the alpha male persona. The more over bearing you are, the more respect you gain.
Had the pilot lived, he would have been charged with manslaughter.
The overestimation of his flying skills were even more fatal than his lies. Many VFR pilots believe being able to fly in IMC with a little simulator experience. Lost in clouds you actually have to suppress senses that send false signals to the brain regarding spatial orientation. This not only requires discipline, but above all a lot of training.
Uhmmmm yeah that part.
There are always distractions in real life that you won't get on the simulator.
Then you get into a situation of uncertainty and trust the seat of your pants.
This flight was not a swiss cheese hole alignment: it was one giant hole. To mess up every aspect of that flight is amazing.
You're right @TheBeingReal. No cheese in this model, just one big hole.
Yep. "Hold the cheese, please."
I remember this one. The pilot had thousands of hours and no instrument rating, neither did the pilot passengers either. A friend told him he was overweight and he lied saying he verified everything. Then he attempts to fly over a thousands miles in bad weather with a overweight plane that is burning through fuel. Also I hope someone relieved that controller because one of his final prompts to Wesley you could tell he knew what happened and he asked him to please respond.
I was trying to figure out if the passengers had IFR, but the fact that none of them seemed to jump into action tells me his ego wouldn't allow help and he kept them all in the dark, or, as you noted, none of them had instrument ratings.
@@culcune Polish,, My GF was polish too. Very intelligent. Most are democrats too.
Way not true I'm polish and many of us are republican. The left lane is for crime
@@outwiththem If most are democrats than most are not very intelligent.
@@culcune None of them were instrument rated and just went along I believe he lied to them. Because he told tower he was able to do IFR flight just like the Lance pilot in another accident. He was flying so erratic that the controller wanted him to land, plus he was burning more fuel from being overweight. At one point he was almost lined up correctly but he was still trying to fly visual thats why he hit the powerlines because he was already below minimum vectorting altitude but the controller needed him to land. The new controller felt bad for him.
what I learnt in university of life that when you need help no shame to ask for it, every body makes mistake, own up to it pay the price and learn not to repeat it, especially in aviation and military where no ample second chances
I can tell you from the picture that the pilot did not weigh 195 pounds.
I thought the same thing. That pilot was way over 195. 225 to 235 minimum.
you sound like an offshore heli pilot lol
pax always guess
"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."
Wonder if he was "faking it till he made it" in front of his peers, shamed to ask for help, posturing, and/or fatal arrogance.
This was the basis of the comment I made having had a lot of interaction with the Polish social and cultural community.
“U.S. accident statistics reveal that a helicopter pilot who unintentionally continues VFR flight into IMC will very likely lose control of their aircraft and be dead within a median time of 56 seconds."
1) What is the median value for a fixed-wing aircraft in the US?
2) Do polish pilots in the US have statistically significant, worse safety records?
He did ask for help... What do you think a "Mayday call" is???🤔
I bet he spoke so calmly because he was trying to keep his passengers in the dark. Bet the back where they were sitting was pretty loud. Hopefully they never had a clue 😢
@@speedygonzales9090 right, but he needed specific help that he didn't ask for. He needed help finding the airport and landing without IFR but he lied about having being IFR rated. It's unbelieve to me how person's pride is so strong that he's willing to risk his own life and the lives of 5 other people rather than admit he's made a serious mistake.
The FAA examiner on my private pilot check ride told me the best life insurance a pilot can buy is an instrument rating. Good advice even if you're mostly flying VFR, but you do need to keep up your IFR proficiency. It could save your life someday. This would have been an easy instrument approach. RIP to all who were lost.
Exactly. The day I got my private license I began my Instrument Rating training. Personally, it just seemed dangerous not to be able to fly competently under reduced weather conditions. Reduced weather conditions are common.
This is one of the most unprepared pilots I’ve watched a sad video about
Hoover could do a whole week on the things I did, but I lived through them.
Unfortunately I'm sure was not his first time.....but this time he run out of luck..
I’m astonished at the level of incompetence here. Did he spend his entire flying “career” within a small group of peers that had similar levels of incompetence? Where were his BFR’s done? How could this incredibly obvious chain of events get past four pilots?
Thanks for the higher insurance rates my man.
Hoover, excellent debrief as always. Made me think of the Southern Airways mishap at that same airport in 1970; the pilots descended below MDA and hit the ground about one mile short of the approach end of runway 11 [at the time, now 12]. The Marshall Univ football team was aboard. It was the catalyst for the installation of the GPWS system
I'm always impressed by the patience, knowledge, skill, and attitude of the controllers on these recordings. Imagine the number of lives they've saved that we never hear of because the controllers helped the pilot avert disaster.
Yes, they are in the group of professionals who get taken for granted and don’t get near the appreciation they deserve.
Thank you Hoover for another “horrible” video. I am amazed that even though there were all those pilots on board they still couldn’t get their act together. Wishing you all the best from Sydney Australia 🇦🇺 PS I am not a pilot, however, your explanation about what is going on is very clear to me and I appreciate your efforts producing each video very much.
My last logged hours as PIC was in Australia. I got to fly over water (which I hadn't done before) and flew under Sydney's Class B. That was some of the best flying I ever did.
I recently found your channel and love the videos. My dad is a retired commercial pilot, and my brother currently flies the A320 for a major airline. Even though I have no flying experience myself, I've always been interested in flying. I've been fortunate enough to fly to many places in the US and outside the US. I've flown on many different types of aircraft, including the C150, when my brother was in school. Your debriefs are so great. Sometimes I may not understand some technical details, but then you explain what it is and why it's important. Your format of starting with a brief background on the pilot & passengers and then going through the flight in a concise manner is just perfect. You're always respectful of those who were killed and their families. I think your videos are so important because so many pilots can learn something from others mistakes. Keep doing what you're doing! And thank you for all your hard work.
Arrogance is the biggest killer of pilots
destinationitis
@michaeldenesyk3195 - Sadly, yes... Not always do they cheat and bend the rules like this guy did, but unfortunately, some of them get in over their head, and things like this happen... Complacency and arrogance led up to this situation... The worst part is when there are others in the plane and/or on the ground, who also can get hurt / killed...The pilot should have listened to and considered the questions his buddy asked him before making the flight...
BTW, The worst aviation crash in history, was caused by an Arrogant KLM pilot who would NOT listen to or even consider consulting, his co-pilot and flight engineer, who were pleading him : NOT to take-off... That claimed 583 lives, all because he refused to listen and check with his other compadres in the cockpit... That happened in Teneriffe, Los Rodeos Airport, a vacation resort island just outside of Spain 3/27/1977...
What was the date of this PA-34 crash, does anybody here know? 0:03 0:03
Unfortunately there's a good percentage of pilots who have extremely arrogant personalities.
Absolutely right.
And many other situations.
I'm not a pilot, but I find your channel fascinating. Thanks, Hoover
If you're a pilot you know how frustrating it is to be sharing the sky with these types of pilots. They are constantly creating dangerous situations not only for themselves but everyone around them. Most of these videos that I watch it seems like the pilots are literally TRYING to die. The best thing to do in these situations is to call ATC and say "im an idiot and i made stupid choices but i need to get these people on the ground safely".
idiots think they are Einsteins. THere's your problem.
I can tell you how frustrating it is to live on the ground with these ass-hats flying over you and your family- most with no insurance. Just a bunch of posers putting everyone around them at risk.
You could definitely hear the resignation in his voice. He gave up. Would be better to have been a bug on the outside of the windshield than a smudge on the inside.😢
@@57Jimmy yeah its just sad that someone would rather risk the death of everyone on board than have the appearance of not knowing what they are doing.
@@57Jimmy The chump probably never had to struggle for anything in his life. So just giving up so easily just comes naturally to someone who doesn't know what struggling feels like. But in doing so, the assclown also gave up on everyone else's life in the plane. And that is unacceptable. Yet his family insists he did nothing wrong. Pathetic.
I always do stuff last minute, i almost always get away with doing little preparation and most people like and respect me but I hate routine and would be an unsafe pilot. Thankfully I can watch and enjoy this while drinking red wine in England. Lots of love to all.
I admire aviation and those who have acquired the skills necessary to fly. This video shows there are a lot of dangerously incompetent people who operate as pilots. Very scary to see people acting so recklessly.
First of all, I commend you for the professional manner you handle these debriefs. Having attended hundreds and hundreds of them myself, I don't think I have ever heard better presentation and attention to detail. I made my fair share of mistakes in my 30 years as a military pilot, and tactical operations officer, but when I watched this de-brief, I was frankly speechless! Pretty much beyond belief. Keep up the good work!
Hoover, the quality of these videos is absolutely the best. Great research. Well thought out. Great job.😇
I’ve only just recently found your channel and I am obsessed with the educational details you give, as well as the absolute respect you show not only to passengers on the plane, but even to the pilots who at times might at times understandably make errors in these obviously terrifying situations. I’m glad you are helping to teach pilots of all ages ideas/procedures to follow if they ever get in bad situations. Some of it will sink in and I can almost guarantee pilots have watched your videos and after having issues said to themselves, “Phew, I remember Hoover mentioning that one time and so remembered what to do.” Keep up the great work!
How can 4 "pilots" agree to go VFR from IL to FL? That's Nuts 🥜 in itself. I have flown the Seneca IFR and it's a handful. If I remember the only "anti ice" you have is Pitot heat. That's about it. This guy was in it way over his head...
And in winter.
This was a heroic attempt by ATC trying to save lives who realized quickly that either the pilot was lying about IFR qualifications or was drunk out of his mind.
I also wonder about the shock of the other pilots on the plane overhearing that the pilot in command was such an incompetent lying asshole.
If Wesley had kept his eyes on the altimeter and compass, and followed the controller's instructions, he would probably have made it. Whoever was in the right seat didn't help, which is very odd. We're our own worst enemies when we're too proud to admit mistakes and lies.
He probably couldn't follow instructions.
His vision needed to be primarily focused on his attitude indicator. Wings level, on the horizon. Turn with a predetermined angle of bank, monitored by looking at the attitude indicator. When done turning, wings back to level by looking at the attitude indicator. If the plane was trimmed correctly, he could have just let go of the yoke to allow it to go back to normal cruise flight. And he could have verified this by looking at the attitude indicator. It's actually not that difficult.
I think the fact that it was a local flying club explains a lot, and I'm sure if you looked at the average safety habits in that club you'd be horrified.
Safety is something that needs to be actively maintained. That's a level of effort many people who see aviation as a hobby first don't really seem to fully understand.
Ego, lies and flying are not a good mixture. I'm thinking he lied to his friends that he's IFR rated and was willing to kill everyone rather than fess up to it.
That surveillance approach is a great idea. Definitely a capability that should be kept up. As for that pilot. He had no business flying that day.
I made several of my ifr training flights on the way to go skiing. IFR was canceled 15 minutes before landing due to no nav aids but the instructor gave me directions "30° left, heading 090...". Anybody with another pilot on board can practice it.
This group is batting 1000. They made every mistake possible as if they didn’t wanna live as far as I can tell rest in peace.
Sounds like the pilot was a one man Swiss cheese.
More like head cheese with a side of arrogance. No thanks, does the airport restaurant have salad?
true, but all the other pilots on the plane that didn't say or do anything added some serious cheese holes
Or cabbage roll!
Hi Hoover,
I can't decide whether I like your videos or not. I have an ATPL which is now well expired and watch your videos through a love for flying and am shocked and dismayed at the disasters which unfold which you so perfectly decipher. I struggle to understand how these pilots set off without taking into account the weather or their ability to make the flight. The result is inevitably catastrophic and so sad to learn of the various loss of life.
I hope your videos make pilots stop and think about what they are doing, I applaud you for your determined efforts to enlighten and encourage others to think clearly about what they are about to under take. Good work as ever.
Not everyone who knows how to fly an aircraft is qualified to.
Hoover you did a spectacular job on the names! Thanks for uploading my favorite classroom just as I was about to get bored! ❤✈
He did a great job maintaining ground contact, especially right there at the end.
Those five passengers were well over 200 lbs each.
It looks that way. None of them were Slim Good Body.
potatoes and polish sausages tend to do that to people.
The female reporter was clearly Not.
Wrong choice of aircraft. Required a cargo rated 'air tractor'.. with a certified Load Master.;]
Even the daughter?
Thanks!
I can't understand why someone would get multi engine certified and not do IFR. Between IMC and access to controlled airspace, I can't see flying a twin without one.
Indeed, perhaps things are significantly different in the US than Australia where I am but it boggles the mind that you could be multi engine rated but not have progressed through instrument certification somewhere in your training.
Because it is horrifically expensive for training and for equipment. That's why
@@albertsampson6568can you put a price on you and your passengers life?
@@albertsampson6568Not an excuse, pal. And wasn't the case with this clown. There is absolutely no excuse for having a multi engine rating allowing you to fly bigger planes with more people yet not have an instrument rating. Its that simple.
And, he was buying two aircraft so money wasn't an issue.
Always speak the truth and show humility, especially when you are responsible for others.
I haven't flown in a long time but when I was flying, I never would have thought as you mentioned, to have someone else review a flight plan for me. I've never even heard of that but that makes great sense and it would have made me feel more confident in some of my longer trips. I wish I would have thought of that or heard of it in the past. Great tip, especially for newer or low time pilots.
I am not a pilot at all, and do not intend to be, but in this particular case it seemed like the perfect opportunity to have one or all of the passengers who are pilots look over the flight plan. Could have changed things which could have ultimately saved all 6 lives.
I had gotten my private single engine land certificate and taking a cross country flight to an airport that I hadn't been to. I asked a CFI to review my flight plan. I got ridiculed being told that didn't I know that I no longer needed my flight plans reviewed. I told him yes but that I hadn't been to that airport before. He then got off his high-horse and gave me a good piece of advice for that flight....when I get the river (being the Colorado River), turn right. That's all he needed to do and not ridicule me.
From the screen shot of Dobrzanski's credentials, his last FAA medical exam shows a Second Class medical certificate date of November 30, 2006. So, my question became when did this crash take place? A simple search reports that this crash happened on January 30, 2009. Dobrzanski's Second Class medical certificate, if not renewed to Second Class status would have defaulted to a Third Class medical certificate after 12 calendar months. This Third Class medical certificate would have expired after 24 calendar months. So, Dobrzanski was out of medical certification after November 30, 2008. He was flying that aircraft on certificates that would have required at least a Third Class medical certificate. Paperwork technicality, or did Dobrzanski know that he had medical issues?
Even though this crash happened 15 years ago, every single aspect of contributing factors could repeat themselves today. Good review, Hoover.
I'm not sure, but weren't third class medicals good for three years back then for all age groups?
@@igclapp I'm not clear of the history of the duration of the Third Class medical certificate. Before I could solo back in the spring of 1975, I had to get a Third Class medical certificate, which doubled as a Student Pilot Certificate. At that time, it was valid for 24 calendar months. Today, a Third Class medical for someone that has NOT reached their 40th birthday is 24 calendar months. If there were changes in the duration of medical certificates (other than by airman age) between 1975 and today, I'm not aware of them.
60 months for below 40, 24 months for over 40 (for a third class)
@@EJWash57 I checked my old third class medicals and I got one in 1988 and the next in 1990. So they were good for two years. That sparks my memory that at the time, second class were good for one year and first class for six months.
@@JoshuaTootell Dobrzanski was 60-years-old...
What's shocking to me is that you can be a VFR pilot for decades and never get to understand how basic instruments work. And this is not the first time I'm hearing that.
Maybe I am just ignorant, but I wonder that all the time too in these videos.
@@BillHopper-i4q Yeah, even Kobe died because of that.
I've only ever been a passenger on a plane about ten times in my forty year life. I don't know anything about planes, but I love watching your videos because they're so interesting and easy for me to understand. Thank you for such cool content and for educating me. ❤
Great video, as always, Hoover. The effort you put into these episodes shows through. Respects to the lost ❤
Great dBrief, as always. You made a comment about the other pilots and how nobody mentioned concern. On one hand that surprises me. On the other hand, I’m a member of several flying forums online. The amount of arrogant and demeaning comments by pilots, presumably, Toward other pilots who err on the side of safety is surprising. Which, unfortunately, means I’m less surprised when I find there are pilots who don’t question other pilots. This is something we have to fix.
Wow, that's disturbing to hear. But then again, I can see how this field/career/hobby attracts individuals with oversized egos
How about arrogance and demeaning comments from CFIs? I had my certificate and had flown a rented plane to another local airport. When doing the run-up for the return flight, the magnetos failed the differential check. I grounded the plane and took a taxi home. I went to the FBO the next day to report what happened. I was ridiculed by the CFIs and asked what I thought the second magneto was for? Oh my goodness, they were CFIs! I thought the second magneto was in case one failed DURING FLIGHT, not to purposefully take off with one not working.
I was in a similar situation in a new Piper Archer II (PA-28-181) about 35 years ago when flying VFR from Denver to Tulsa, OK with one friend who was also a student pilot.
Was a night long XC flight from KDEN to KTUL and I ended up IFR on top at night (winter and the whole plains area closed in quickly at night). I had no destination options due to very low fuel and my passenger left the enroute APPROACH PLATES on the wing in Colorado when getting in the aircraft. Even though I was a low time pilot at the time (had maybe 200 to 250 hours), I kept my cool, I totally admitted my situation to Tulsa Approach Control and I asked for an ASR (approach surveillance radar) guided approach. I asked Approach Control for the KTUL designated runway ILS approach profile, with ILS frequency, course, marker distances, the FAF and MDA altitudes, and missed approach information. I actually quickly drafted the approach on paper and set up COM 1 with the ILS while following precision heading/altitude instructions from ATC... Needless to say the ATIS was saying TULSA was ZERO VISIBILITY, ZERO RVR and FOG! However we made it, landed centerline with basically visibility whatsoever until touchdown! FYI - going around or MIP was not an option as due to radar vectors for and lining up for the ILS approach left zero fuel available.
This was the scariest thing I experienced while flying because I was almost out of fuel with NO OPTIONS at all.
Honestly I am lucky to still be here, but I kept my cool and asked for help! IT WAS A LEARNING EXPERIENCE!
BIG THANK YOU TO THE FAA ATC GROUP IN TULSA OKLAHOMA.
No pilot deviation reported, no letter and no call to ATC was needed.
(Written Without Prejudice). ;-)
Wow! Almost seems like there was the attitude of ‘we are many pilots! What could go wrong?’
Four pilots, ZERO CRM.😢
Sometimes pilots make the worse back seat drivers.
Sad. very sad. Thanks for sharing. You provide a great service. I have not flown in a long time but I still try to stay informed.
So unnecessary & unfortunate others had to perish because of his arrogance & stupidity.
You have to recognize your limitations. None of the pax intervened and told him to do a 180 to remain VFR and just land, check wx, get fuel and go home if it is solid IFR down the path. 6 people was simply too many for the Seneca 2. I would not have made the trip with no instrument rating anyway.
The more I watch this channel the more I am amazed at the incompetence of pilots and the more I am using my ADSB.
Fly it by the numbers. Take pride in being humble. Always over train and as any boy scout will tell you be prepared! Every flight is a test between how prepared you are and how prepared you think you are. A whole psychology paper could be written on how 4 pilots could allow this to happen.
There are no Boy Scouts anymore.
@DrDeuteron, ain't that the truth!
Such a tragedy. How so many pilots on board let this flight progress let alone get off the ground? Procedures are in place to avoid situations like this.
I remember this crash all too well - HTS is my home airport. The controllers tried everything they could and if you listen to the full tapes you can hear the worry, pain, and frustration in their (familiar) voices as they desperately tried every trick in the book to talk this guy down to the runway. Throw in the fact the weather was absolutely miserable that day; I still can't figure how someone would take off without even a cursory glance at the weather radar, much less a REAL brief, that would have clearly shown how bad it was. And this was in the "flat" part of the state...his "planned" route was going to take him over even worse conditions.
I appreciate all the work you put into producing your uploads. Thank you for providing excellence on your channel amidst so much low-quality content.
Good debrief Hoover. The controller made a good choice to switch to no gyro ASR or PAR if near a military base. The pilot knew he could not fly IMC before he left. Just with that knowledge and not being distracted by other options, the only survivable late decision he could have made was to stay in visual contact with the ground (stay low) until a road or field came into view and land. I hate snow, VMC or IMC. It is very distracting so that IMC is better if we are rated and confident. IFR/IMC is so much safer for those current and confident. For all others it is almost always fatal. For all others, including this pilot, staying in contact with the ground (low) is the only way to survive marginal conditions. One thing I dislike about the integrated instrument contact flying orientation that came into vogue about the time I started instructing is that it glossed over the absolute need to separate VMC/contact and IMC/instrument flying. They are two different worlds and never the twain shall meet. Even if the computer is flying IMC, the pilot has to have full confidence in the computer. And if VMC, the pilot needs to almost totally rely on contact with the surface for situational awareness. Aviate. Yes, the goodies help with navigate and communicate. No, they do not keep us from hitting stuff or falling out of the sky unless rated and competent. But flying by reference to instruments when in a maneuvering or crowded VFR situation is almost as dangerous as flying IMC when not current and confident. The safest way to fly marginal weather is IFR/IMC. The safest way to fly VFR/VMC in marginal weather is as low as necessary to see well and avoid stuff.
I remember seeing this on another video 13 years ago. This video adds great needed context. Thank you.
Part of the problem was Milgrams proofs.
People will defer to a figure in authority to the point of allowing that authority to kill them.
There's also the West Slavic mentality.
As someone who has Polish ancestry, I know this well.😔
I was looking for this comment. Wesley looked to be the more senior guy. That doesn't equate to experience and decision making in aviation.
What mentality might that be?
@@synupps877 that shut up I know more than you mentality. I worked with guys like this. It's tough to be around that while in aviation.
According to the local papers the 'PIC' was a retired engineer. That while taxiing he was stopped and questioned by a local on the field since his rims were almost touching the ground. He also flew a leg of sightseeing over and around Chicago before finally heading for his first destination airport.
3 inches out of CG doesn't like much but that's over 50% of the CG range behind the aft limit.
It's unfortunate that he managed to even get it off the ground.
Yep, they'd have had a better chance if he stalled on takeoff.
I thought this was all bad until you mentioned there were 3 other pilots on board. It then went from all bad to are you kidding me?
The poor controller did everything short of climbing up and flying the plane himself. I hope he didn't blame himself at all for this tragedy.
Though the outcome is almost always tragic in Hoover's videos, I usually come away with the feeling that the unsung heroes, despite the outcome, are the controllers who do their damndest with calmness and professionalism to assist pilots in dire straits.
Hey Hoover, love your videos, currently going through them while I'm working. Recently listened to your video explaining more of your background in the military and your motives for the channel. I love your breakdowns of the causes and technical factors in these incidents. My advice from a consumers prospective is to keep in mind your viewers that are only listening when displaying pictures or videos. Any extra narration is greatly appreciated. Thank you!
“Should be okay.” That’s the first red flag!
Hoover, I must say these debrief videos are excellent. I just earned my PPL in June, and I've wondered a few times (God forbid) if I was to ever find myself in this type of situation. Being open an honest with ATC should never be questioned, but the best offense is a good defense, and I would never execute a flight I know I couldn't handle. Looking forward to all future videos, and thanks again.
Flew out of HTS (and several nearby VFR airports) from 1965 until 1996 when I had to quit due to a medical issue. I instructed there for about 8 of those years. The surrounding terrain is rugged and wooded. Sadly, the entire Marshall University football team died in 1970 when their DC-9 crashed on a localizer (non-precision) approach to runway 12 into a hillside just short of the runway. I went to the hilltop right after the crash where the plane hit the tops of some very tall black locust trees. The runway has since been extended and has a full ILS approach.
I Always Enjoy Your Commentaries & Wonder How Often Students Learn Something From Them. Thank You.