No Red, you’re the champ. I was super excited when you announced this series, as I’m an engineer. This is freaking awesome dude. Keep up the good work my friend!
Red, you have evolved so much....LOVE the recent content, especially the Road To Horsepower series. I cannot believe you don't have more subscribers!! That dyno and the plasma table have been real game changers for your operation there. Kepp cranking out the good stuff! About the cracked sleeve.....totally baffled by that, but very interesting to see. Hopefully Tillotson sees this and can research the issue.
I bet the sleeve cracked due to vibration and block flex. These engines are being pushed well beyond what they were designed for and at that point stuff like this starts to happen. I wonder if a person could find thicker sleeve and bore out the block a bit more and push that in. Might be getting to the point where you will start to need to make some kind of girdle for the block. I do think that getting the rotating assembly balanced is an excellent idea which will free up horsepower and prolong the life of the engine. I'm currently working on a Continental engine from a forklift and those engines were balanced from the factory to help them last longer. The port sizes on that head aren't much bigger than what you see on the Predators of course they were only aiming for 40hp out of a Z-134 at 2k.
From a failure diagnosis standpoint, that looks like a classic case of thermal expansion difference between an aluminum block and a steel sleeve. Not something that happens overnight naturally, but a cyclical effect. That is an impressive power level nonetheless, especially for one coming apart (almost literally) at the seams!
Those darn sleeved cylinders....they're not all they're cracked up to be ;).Seriously though,that is just weird,and must've been a behind the sleeve problem as a 'prototype' and nothing they'd see after.We appreciate all you do to help us build,and to save us troubles ahead by showing the better way.TY.
I feel like the head gasket Blew then the heat escaping Cracked the Cyl try Copper Coat Spray on the MLS gasket let it dry completely then install Good Luck Great Video Red
Hey Redbeard, you ought to try going up to the VM28 Mikuni flat slide before you swap to the billet head to take advantage of your current big valve head. You might even break 19hp with the VM28. A lot of 24mm Mikuni guys would love to see the difference on the dyno before taking on the $150 charge to swap to the slightly bigger carb.
Feel like ruining, I mean fixing a stock 224 block?.. So maybe... Drill the head bolt bores all the way down into the crankcase, tap, then studs. Yes balance! Out of balance rotating assembles trash parts and engines, plus waste power. Thank you Red for this vid!
Will be cool to see the Tillotson 212 on that dyno, I have one on my racing go kart without the governor and a 22mm MIKUNI plus header. I would love to see the difference between a stock and just carb and Header without governor.
Hey Red Beard I know it’s something basic but could you do a video on what all the hoses do and where all they go? Just a basic fuel delivery and how best to tune a motor video would be appreciated, thanks for all the info over the years!
Cerakote is a thermal reflector, aluminum is designed to dissipate heat at a fast rate...the cerakote will slow it down and hold heat in the block causing it to warp and crack,plus the vibration the 224 has doesn't help either.
Isn't the stock muffler really restrictive and carburetor on the lean side? 10 HP isn't bad at all for that size engine and all those power killers installed. What is your compression increase over stock? 10.0 to 10.5?
Very good information as always! Can the predator 224cc hit 23hp with that moflow head, bigger can, & rockers? Or would you build on a DuroMax to get that kind of hp?
I was wondering that also. He’s looking a bit rich to me under the hood that for sure. Probably tuning by ear rather than with a gas analyzer. That should be his next shop goody
Whatever happened with the electronic ignition with the variable timing that you got from Danny in Canada, I bought the same CDI kit, but I never put it on
Have you considered testing Cerakote engine coating on these engines? Piston Coat on the top of the piston & combustion chamber/valve faces, and Micros Slick Dry film lubricant on the piston skirts. Would be really interesting to see if you get any hp gains.
There is on the channel if you look for predator 224cc build. The new 224cc from harbor freight is different than this first gen. Nothing fits in the new one.
It could've been the core shift during manufacturing. Another possibility is the piston rings were tight from the factory and with all that sustained rpm you were giving it they butted a bit and expanded, putting more force on the sleeve. Aluminum fatigues with heat and expansion rates are different with steel and aluminum so that could also be a factor. You should try low tension moly rings and a bigger gap to see if that prevents cracking.
It's interesting to see such a small general purpose engine able to perform at that level of output power and speed with some relatively simple upgrades. I wonder though, is there a decent fuel injection system yet for something like this or is it too cost prohibitive to have something like that?
Probably the closest thing EFI wise is Speeduino. There’s a bunch of different boards, the detonation EMS x2 is perfect for these kinds of engines. The ECU itself is under $100. But when you add throttle body, injector, fuel pump, sensors and trigger wheel (required if you plan to control ignition) you’ll be lucky to have change out of $300 or so. Have to consider powering it too. The ECU doesn’t use much, but even the small fuel pumps can draw as much as 3A. If you’re running a lambda sensor that another amp. There’s things you can do to reduce fuel pump power needs via electronic pressure regulation. This can get your total system draw down to 2-3A Power wise EFI itself doesn’t really change peak HP, but you can find a lot under the curve between ignition and fuel mapping. Transient response can be very snappy if you want it to be. Probably biggest bonus of an EFI EFI system is boost control and nitrous support.
I've seen that on small block Chevy rare engines that burned the head gasket as much as 0.60 gone from the block and more from the head both cast iron running 110 octane rare gas between cylinders 3 and 5
I have a 224 predator on a ct200uex. Vm22 carb, gov delete, ported head, straight pipe exhaust, 22lb valve springs,aluminum fly wheel ( not billet), straight chain w/ 3000 rpm clutch, 50 tooth sprocket. Why do I have so much vibration? Also keeps breaking #41 chain. How much hp and torque do you think it’s putting out? PLEASE HELP!!!
I know it would probably be expensive but im thinking that if you're running a built engine like that it may be worth it to have the crank balanced to reduce the vibration at those higher RPMs
What's happening is that the blown by which is "exhaust smoke" essentially is directly going into the head, causing it to become too pressured seeing that there is 2 lines in an 1 out. From the side cover there should be 1 directly out to air and 1 must find a medium space like a catch can before it goes into the head. Basically all that's happening is there is too much pressure building up in the crank case but its going directly back into the engine with little escaping. By doing that you're taking the high-pressured exhaust smoke that lands in the crankcase "past the rings" and putting it right back into the head. In the valve cover or valvetrain it's becoming so pressured it's pushing through even the valves guides and going into the chamber. Simply reduce the pressure that goes back into the head and make sure it's semi-clean before it goes back into the valve cover. Against popular theory you should never have the high-pressure of the crankcase going right back into the head that's already happening through the oil tube. The purpose of ventilating the crankcase is to reduce the pressure in the head to begin with. Or this happens. You don't want opposing forces you just want to allow the air to escape at a slow rate and at a faster rate at higher RPMs hence the PCV valves. The only reason why you want to go back into the head with air is to maintain some type of pressure at a fast drop in RPMs. Besides that it is senseless or maybe to spit oil Vapors on the valve train but there is a lot of oil coming up between the pushrods there should be zinc in the oil to promote that.
I really really really love it for sure now and me and my lil brother has two go-karts and we would love to know how to make more power out of there they're the 212cc predator engine
I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure is as long as the flywheel doesn't interfere with the block or the engine case and seats nice on the crankshaft and does up ok it will be fine
When I put my thumb on the spark plug hole I feel no pressure at all and found my spark plug to be covered in oil. The engine runs but struggles to go over 7k rpm could it be a blown head gasket ?
Can you dyno that diesel engine that you used on that go kart? I'm interested in buying one and would love to see how much power it makes with and without that turbo!
If it's made from billet aluminum vs cast steel then i would guess it's because aluminum gets weaker with use no matter what so after a long time can fail from fatigue. Steel has the ability to stay strong with use unless it gets abused and pushed to hard. I have no idea if thats actually the reason, it's just what i would guess.
Since I was a kid I wanted to put a motorcycle head on my flat head Briggs cart engine, Imagine a Ducati with desmodronic valve train, the cam opens and closes the valves, I was wanting to fit a Suzuki Dr 200 head to the Briggs, but it was well beyond my means,
First of all that is the sleeve that broke. The reason it failed is it is a HF pile, I bought a Tillotson 72mm short block with self aligning bearings for $140. The company I bought it from also mills just enough off the top of the deck to make sure it is flat. If you want to make big power with a clone Tillotson blocks were designed for that purpose they are the only ones that were developed for big power period.
One thing that guys never consider is that many of these engines including the 224 are utility engines low oil sensor and all. The Tillotson is a powersports engine. It better have a higher quality block.
Your rod had to have hit the bottom of the cylinder sleeve. if it’s stroked then maybe the crank hit it. Definitely hit the sleeve on the old block that why it cracked ect.
Question, do you still put the Normal 0.64 quarts in your 224 considering that the oil sensor is out? I’m building a stage 3 and I’m not sure how much oil would be optimal
Do you find the blue roller rockers are just as good as the black spyder roller rockers? I notice many people don’t splurge the $89 more for the black pros. Also can you use the same crank in the new block so it matches your flywheel? It’s a bit absurd to think a poor middle aged dad who’s smuggling extra money from the wife to build a scooter motor could afford a new bullet flywheel each rebuild….. 🤔 Awesome video though, thank you 🙏🏽
When I saw the title I was thinking supercharged engine not cracked sleeve engine. I was waiting for you to get out the supercharger until you found the crack in the sleeve. I wonder about taking that block pulling that broken sleeve and pushing in a bigger one. Makes you want a boring machine doesn't it? I know it makes me want one just to try it. Love messing with engines
You should cut that head another .030"-.060" pick up some TQ and maybe a HP or two, running 100 octane plus you should not have any problems, 200-220 psi compression ,
That is the coolest valve cover I've ever seen for this engine !
I like watching your builds as I am a retired director of engineering over one of the largest companies in the world and an ASE certified mechanic.
what company?
No Red, you’re the champ. I was super excited when you announced this series, as I’m an engineer. This is freaking awesome dude. Keep up the good work my friend!
Best channel on TH-cam hands down. I love this road to HP series and cant wait to see the MB 200 get put back together and tested!
Much appreciated! Should have the parts this week to finish it
Before and after dyno tests never get old! Thank you for sharing this.
Cant wait for the big blocks!
Love the dyno videos buddy I love seeing how much these small engines can do on a dyno🤘
You and me both!
@@RedBeardsGarage me too glad to see you got that
Awesome video as always! I can't believe she was putting out over 17hp with a split block and a blown head gasket!
Can't wait to see some of these big block builds on the dyno!!
Red, you have evolved so much....LOVE the recent content, especially the Road To Horsepower series. I cannot believe you don't have more subscribers!! That dyno and the plasma table have been real game changers for your operation there. Kepp cranking out the good stuff! About the cracked sleeve.....totally baffled by that, but very interesting to see. Hopefully Tillotson sees this and can research the issue.
I bet the sleeve cracked due to vibration and block flex. These engines are being pushed well beyond what they were designed for and at that point stuff like this starts to happen. I wonder if a person could find thicker sleeve and bore out the block a bit more and push that in. Might be getting to the point where you will start to need to make some kind of girdle for the block. I do think that getting the rotating assembly balanced is an excellent idea which will free up horsepower and prolong the life of the engine. I'm currently working on a Continental engine from a forklift and those engines were balanced from the factory to help them last longer. The port sizes on that head aren't much bigger than what you see on the Predators of course they were only aiming for 40hp out of a Z-134 at 2k.
It's so nice to actually see dyno data on these smaller engines. I'm amazed that thing made 17hp in the condition it was in!
But is that all you want it for?
A hp number?
Thats not the point of a dyno run.
Bro I love how you dyno before and after everything at every opportunity it is super helpful knowledge!
I love the way he says “real nice”
Your the man on these motors. love to watch you do that stuff.
R.I.P old 224! Hold on tight new 224 it's gonna be a bumpy ride!🤙
Thanks for the videos @0.75 audio speed, it allows us old dudes to keep up.
From a failure diagnosis standpoint, that looks like a classic case of thermal expansion difference between an aluminum block and a steel sleeve. Not something that happens overnight naturally, but a cyclical effect. That is an impressive power level nonetheless, especially for one coming apart (almost literally) at the seams!
Get a wiseco piston and a long rod to reduce side-to-side forces, it will help the piston to focus the force more directly to the crank.
Those darn sleeved cylinders....they're not all they're cracked up to be ;).Seriously though,that is just weird,and must've been a behind the sleeve problem as a 'prototype' and nothing they'd see after.We appreciate all you do to help us build,and to save us troubles ahead by showing the better way.TY.
I feel like the head gasket Blew then the heat escaping Cracked the Cyl try Copper Coat Spray on the MLS gasket let it dry completely then install Good Luck Great Video Red
Hey Redbeard, you ought to try going up to the VM28 Mikuni flat slide before you swap to the billet head to take advantage of your current big valve head. You might even break 19hp with the VM28. A lot of 24mm Mikuni guys would love to see the difference on the dyno before taking on the $150 charge to swap to the slightly bigger carb.
When your road to horsepower series is complete please consider releasing a dvd for sale showing it from start to finish.
Can't wait the 420-460cc engine on the Dyno😁
Feel like ruining, I mean fixing a stock 224 block?.. So maybe... Drill the head bolt bores all the way down into the crankcase, tap, then studs. Yes balance! Out of balance rotating assembles trash parts and engines, plus waste power. Thank you Red for this vid!
Will be cool to see the Tillotson 212 on that dyno, I have one on my racing go kart without the governor and a 22mm MIKUNI plus header. I would love to see the difference between a stock and just carb and Header without governor.
6:11 This was allowing combustion to pressurize the crankcase, causing oil to blow out the vent.
This video was fun thanks for your time and the information
Once you get a few hours on it try it on the dyno again letting things get a little looser inside the motor might show some gains.
Hey Red Beard I know it’s something basic but could you do a video on what all the hoses do and where all they go? Just a basic fuel delivery and how best to tune a motor video would be appreciated, thanks for all the info over the years!
You are killing it man these videos are awesome
Hey buddy, every time I watch one of your Dyno runs, it’s like a dopamine it for me
you're saying road to horsepower gets you high, me too!
@@markyoung9964 yeah, I totally trip
Cerakote is a thermal reflector, aluminum is designed to dissipate heat at a fast rate...the cerakote will slow it down and hold heat in the block causing it to warp and crack,plus the vibration the 224 has doesn't help either.
My first thought was that I would start wondering how hot I was running.
Hello , am rossia, video крутые 👍
Love it I got a 224 on my kilowatt glad you dynoed a stock one
Very interesting. Any new information on the 274?
Can you put the stroker crank on the tilly 72mm and make a 236
Do a video on rebalancing the reciprocating assembly after adding a different rod and piston .
Isn't the stock muffler really restrictive and carburetor on the lean side? 10 HP isn't bad at all for that size engine and all those power killers installed. What is your compression increase over stock? 10.0 to 10.5?
Very good information as always!
Can the predator 224cc hit 23hp with that moflow head, bigger can, & rockers?
Or would you build on a DuroMax
to get that kind of hp?
What kind of HP numbers were you looking for? Think you've done all you can with fuel you're using. Idk, awesome vid as always😊
Reeel Nice 👌 a couple more ladles of gravies in dat one 😉
BIG BLOCK TIME!!
Hey Red, what afr are you shooting for on these engines. I’m used to monitoring it on my turbo v8s, just wondering what these clones like?
I was wondering that also. He’s looking a bit rich to me under the hood that for sure. Probably tuning by ear rather than with a gas analyzer. That should be his next shop goody
yo guys! are the "heat shields" actual heat shields or are they shrouds that assist in the cooling across the fins?
Love it I'm doing a stage 3 on my 224 for my manco ez rider kart! Good to know
Great content
Whatever happened with the electronic ignition with the variable timing that you got from Danny in Canada, I bought the same CDI kit, but I never put it on
Woah, more hp than my 420!, cool!
Who are you getting to balance the crank?
Great video as always 👍
Have you considered testing Cerakote engine coating on these engines? Piston Coat on the top of the piston & combustion chamber/valve faces, and Micros Slick Dry film lubricant on the piston skirts. Would be really interesting to see if you get any hp gains.
I was wondering do you think the cerakote hold in too much heat the air cannot cool off the cylinder properly just food for thought
Love this
So what happened to The Road To Horsepower Dyno with the Hemi 212? It's been forever now.
Who would balance one of these?
That's good stuff!
Now will the cerakote piston and head give any extra power?
And do the exhaust port and inside and outside of the exhaust manifold.
Great vid.
is there a full build list for this motor. I know there is one for a 212.
There is on the channel if you look for predator 224cc build. The new 224cc from harbor freight is different than this first gen. Nothing fits in the new one.
It could've been the core shift during manufacturing. Another possibility is the piston rings were tight from the factory and with all that sustained rpm you were giving it they butted a bit and expanded, putting more force on the sleeve. Aluminum fatigues with heat and expansion rates are different with steel and aluminum so that could also be a factor. You should try low tension moly rings and a bigger gap to see if that prevents cracking.
Any recommendations on the best stage 4 build setup for a 224 for kart racing? Thanks!
So I dont know if I have missed it but when are you going to dyno the 670
Where can I find the magnetic oil dip stick for the billet valve cover?
It's interesting to see such a small general purpose engine able to perform at that level of output power and speed with some relatively simple upgrades. I wonder though, is there a decent fuel injection system yet for something like this or is it too cost prohibitive to have something like that?
Probably the closest thing EFI wise is Speeduino. There’s a bunch of different boards, the detonation EMS x2 is perfect for these kinds of engines. The ECU itself is under $100. But when you add throttle body, injector, fuel pump, sensors and trigger wheel (required if you plan to control ignition) you’ll be lucky to have change out of $300 or so. Have to consider powering it too. The ECU doesn’t use much, but even the small fuel pumps can draw as much as 3A. If you’re running a lambda sensor that another amp. There’s things you can do to reduce fuel pump power needs via electronic pressure regulation. This can get your total system draw down to 2-3A
Power wise EFI itself doesn’t really change peak HP, but you can find a lot under the curve between ignition and fuel mapping. Transient response can be very snappy if you want it to be.
Probably biggest bonus of an EFI EFI system is boost control and nitrous support.
Looks like the iron cylinder liner came loose from the block. Might be time for some dart liners haha
I've seen that on small block Chevy rare engines that burned the head gasket as much as 0.60 gone from the block and more from the head both cast iron running 110 octane rare gas between cylinders 3 and 5
I have a 224 predator on a ct200uex. Vm22 carb, gov delete, ported head, straight pipe exhaust, 22lb valve springs,aluminum fly wheel ( not billet), straight chain w/ 3000 rpm clutch, 50 tooth sprocket. Why do I have so much vibration? Also keeps breaking #41 chain. How much hp and torque do you think it’s putting out? PLEASE HELP!!!
What AFR do you look for on wide open throttle?
Lol you put out this video 2 days after our vintage car blow up 😂
I know it would probably be expensive but im thinking that if you're running a built engine like that it may be worth it to have the crank balanced to reduce the vibration at those higher RPMs
What's happening is that the blown by which is "exhaust smoke" essentially is directly going into the head, causing it to become too pressured seeing that there is 2 lines in an 1 out. From the side cover there should be 1 directly out to air and 1 must find a medium space like a catch can before it goes into the head. Basically all that's happening is there is too much pressure building up in the crank case but its going directly back into the engine with little escaping. By doing that you're taking the high-pressured exhaust smoke that lands in the crankcase "past the rings" and putting it right back into the head. In the valve cover or valvetrain it's becoming so pressured it's pushing through even the valves guides and going into the chamber. Simply reduce the pressure that goes back into the head and make sure it's semi-clean before it goes back into the valve cover. Against popular theory you should never have the high-pressure of the crankcase going right back into the head that's already happening through the oil tube. The purpose of ventilating the crankcase is to reduce the pressure in the head to begin with. Or this happens. You don't want opposing forces you just want to allow the air to escape at a slow rate and at a faster rate at higher RPMs hence the PCV valves. The only reason why you want to go back into the head with air is to maintain some type of pressure at a fast drop in RPMs. Besides that it is senseless or maybe to spit oil Vapors on the valve train but there is a lot of oil coming up between the pushrods there should be zinc in the oil to promote that.
224 making the same horsepower as THREE stock 212s, very cool
I really really really love it for sure now and me and my lil brother has two go-karts and we would love to know how to make more power out of there they're the 212cc predator engine
I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure is as long as the flywheel doesn't interfere with the block or the engine case and seats nice on the crankshaft and does up ok it will be fine
When I put my thumb on the spark plug hole I feel no pressure at all and found my spark plug to be covered in oil. The engine runs but struggles to go over 7k rpm could it be a blown head gasket ?
Ur awesome man you do amazing work and I love watching your videos you really offer amazing content and helps me with my builds
What engine oil do you prefer in your engines
I like comparing Dyno numbers.
Can you dyno that diesel engine that you used on that go kart? I'm interested in buying one and would love to see how much power it makes with and without that turbo!
Love your vids
doesn’t seem like anything is making contract🤓👆 love this dude🤣
You say to never reuse a billet flywheel. I dont mean to sound dumb, but if it has a key and you relap it. What would be the issue with reuse?
I don't see an issue with it but thats what they say lol.
If it's made from billet aluminum vs cast steel then i would guess it's because aluminum gets weaker with use no matter what so after a long time can fail from fatigue. Steel has the ability to stay strong with use unless it gets abused and pushed to hard. I have no idea if thats actually the reason, it's just what i would guess.
Good video, but I have to say for me a blown engine is oil on the ground and holes in the block....lol
Awesome video 💯
Since I was a kid I wanted to put a motorcycle head on my flat head Briggs cart engine,
Imagine a Ducati with desmodronic valve train, the cam opens and closes the valves, I was wanting to fit a Suzuki Dr 200 head to the Briggs, but it was well beyond my means,
I wonder if the harmonic’s is what caused cracked sleeve
First of all that is the sleeve that broke. The reason it failed is it is a HF pile, I bought a Tillotson 72mm short block with self aligning bearings for $140. The company I bought it from also mills just enough off the top of the deck to make sure it is flat. If you want to make big power with a clone Tillotson blocks were designed for that purpose they are the only ones that were developed for big power period.
One thing that guys never consider is that many of these engines including the 224 are utility engines low oil sensor and all. The Tillotson is a powersports engine. It better have a higher quality block.
Your rod had to have hit the bottom of the cylinder sleeve. if it’s stroked then maybe the crank hit it. Definitely hit the sleeve on the old block that why it cracked ect.
Question, do you still put the Normal 0.64 quarts in your 224 considering that the oil sensor is out? I’m building a stage 3 and I’m not sure how much oil would be optimal
14oz is what I always run. 12-16 is the range.
Do you find the blue roller rockers are just as good as the black spyder roller rockers? I notice many people don’t splurge the $89 more for the black pros.
Also can you use the same crank in the new block so it matches your flywheel? It’s a bit absurd to think a poor middle aged dad who’s smuggling extra money from the wife to build a scooter motor could afford a new bullet flywheel each rebuild….. 🤔
Awesome video though, thank you 🙏🏽
How Much Would The Dyno Cost If Someone Wanted To Purchase One?
12K
@@RedBeardsGarage Thank you for the expeditious reply, sharing your time and knowledge with the community, you are greatly appreciated!
Oof, I hope the 224 I picked up last week is the better block.
Ecellente Video , great information ... the REAL Dave who .. tRDw
When I saw the title I was thinking supercharged engine not cracked sleeve engine. I was waiting for you to get out the supercharger until you found the crack in the sleeve. I wonder about taking that block pulling that broken sleeve and pushing in a bigger one. Makes you want a boring machine doesn't it? I know it makes me want one just to try it. Love messing with engines
You should cut that head another .030"-.060" pick up some TQ and maybe a HP or two, running 100 octane plus you should not have any problems, 200-220 psi compression ,
You should do a 224 with a 308 cam see what go you can make
I wanna see what one of these built motors does on e85.
Needs 2-3x more oil capacity n oil cooling. Overheating will cause it to crack da head. Common occurrence when supercharging it.
i seen the missing piece fall when you removed the top
O ring the head or block keeps the seal extra tight.
I'd like to see the failure reports simply from reusing a billet flywheel
Probably none lol.