Trebuchet - Giant Darts!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2022
- I have a trebuchet and so it is a requirement that I mess about with it, but obviously in a historical way, but sometimes I do just like to mess.....
If you look around you can find pictures by Mariano Taccola and Frederico Martini from the 15thC that show darts get ready to be shot from trebuchets. The Arabs have loads of pictures of them, so it must have been done, but do they work and even if they do; what is the point?
And even if they do work and are awesome, can I make them even more awesome? Yes I can.
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Tod's multi-stage plumbata missile system being historically accurate is absolutely giving D&D new ideas
Historically plausible might be a better term. I wonder if anyone ever thought if this back then? Surely someone at least daydreamed about it.
I'm not going to show these to my players lol
I'm most likely going to feature them in my next novel.
A firebomb center with alchemists fire arrows as submunitions.
yuck no, more like age of empires
superb plausible medieval cluster munition, great footage.
...this coming from the man that's probably an immortal that lived through such times... hmm... suspicious...
HI Jason, Thanks and it worked really well. Timed trigger releases are so easy now, but so tricky back then
@@tods_workshop Hey Todd,look at 52nd sec. of a film!U`ll see a little deer coming on the very left.All d best!.love Your channel.
@@tods_workshop I am wondering, fire was a weapon of choice to be fired from any catapult or trebuchet.
Is there a way that these little plumbata could have been rigged with flammables so they would light off shortly after impacting.
Longer fuses only gets into flammable stuff after landing.
I know there were / are better ways of setting stuff on fire. But it sounded "in my head" like a fun test.
Don't want to use it that's fine I had my fun coming up with the idea.
@@gmanbo Incendiaries could easily be launched already on fire - you just need a non-flammable set of rigging on the trebuchet (ie wrought iron).
Congrats Tod, you've invented the cluster-bomb trebuchet! I'm loving this series.
I choose to name that arrangement Merv (or MIRV?)
I invented it, he built it and carried it out like a champ ! 👍👍 that’s what’s great about Tod, he listens to his feedback and makes dreams happen.
Glad you enjoy it!
Hi Andrew, I actually did this 10 years ago on a show called 'Beat the Ancestors' where I headed the engineering on a giant catapulta. Not sure if I conceived of it, but it probably came out of one of our very many late night pub based meetings of the build crew, so like most ideas is a group effort. However I absolutely do read a lot of these comments, engage where I can and certainly find great ideas to pursue, so please keep them coming. To be honest a comment here has already directed me to look at "Cluster darts 2"
@@tods_workshop I was just referring to the fuse bundle that I suggested way back on your older videos. It was nice to see that in action. Or are you saying you used fuse bundles 10 years ago in beat the ancestors ?
😉 as I said in my original comments long ago, I think they did this in medieval times so I don’t honestly believe I or you invented it but we did reignite it that’s for sure 👍👍
Deer just casually standing in front of Tod and a trebuchet
It knows the trebuchet can't hit targets.
Everyone in comments talking about trebuchet, I'm just happy I saw me a deer.
@@nahadoth2087 Fair.
God, the deer at the start checking out what the strange hoomon is doing is so adorable.
Also nice job, Tod!
Wondered if anyone else saw the lil deer, hope he keeps clear of the shooting range haha
I'm only 1 min in, does the video end with Tod having venison for tea?
no deer, men at arms or GoPros were hurt during the making of this film
@@tods_workshop That's why you were wearing your men at arms shirt as well, right? To make sure you would never get hit.
Deer Hunter: Trebuchet Edition
Instead of having more range for the same trebuchet when using darts, you could use a smaller trebuchet for the same range. That would be especially useful if you don't have access to timber of required size and quality nearby - a problem that probably wouldn't be encountered often in medieval Europe, but might be more prevalent in Arabia.
I'd also guess a smaller trebuchet would be easier to have within a settlement/castle
@@somedane8879 my guess if I was going to defend a walled city is to hit them as far away as possible bigger might be better in that case. I mean in the time period they know what they're doing and can range, aim, and possibly reload faster. That's old tod there
Also it's the Arabs if they wanted better timber they would import it from somewhere in the orient( India and china most likely)
@@thevillageblacksmith8550 Lebanon was the usual source.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot dude there is a line in the Bible, "like a cedar of lebanon" it's written several times. That's cool
Tod + trebuchet = pure awesomeness!
Those go pro shots are glorious!
Give that farmer our deepest gratitude for letting you play with your trebuchet in his field.
Keep having fun!
Cheers!
a Toduchet?
'Tod O'shea Productions' - the fling's the thing! : )
Well said Shaggy, this is one of the greatest videos ever 😀
Yes big thanks to Mr Farmer.
If I'm the farmer, the condition is I get to watch it live. :)
Tempting fate with another Go-Pro casualty just to try to coax a hit. Brave Graham the 4th, Tod you seriously go the distance for us 👍👍 "They didn't hit my men at arms, but they always do that." Was a good chuckle. Still another wonderful addition on what to do when you own a trebuchet 101 😉
The fin bends around the release time when the acceleration is greatest, and I'm talking about the acceleration as in going in a circle and not forward. When you go in a circle you're constantly accelerating in a new direction.
The rope is then pulling sideways instead of forward as it does in the beginning and therefor bending the fin which lacks support in that direction. The tail seems to be thrown out a little with the tip pointing down so having the connection a little bit further back might improve it a little. Maybe a bit in front of the center of gravity point.
Maybe a couple of turns of rope from behind the dart's head, to a self-trapped knot by the balance point, - led 'by the nose' round the initial launch arc, the torque should then unroll the rope enough to let go at just the right moment . . . or perhaps not . . . &, as I'm nowhere near that field, what could possibly go wrong anyway? : )
Honestly, an aerodynamic metal cap at the front and a simple hook would be easier, and near enough just as effective to whichever poor fecker gets hit. Then you don't have to spend as much time or material making the head, and it's probably got less that can go wrong with it.
Henrik, I think you may have it
Big props to the farmer letting you play in his field, for everyone's enjoyment. 🧑🌾
Blimey, that go-pro video really gave a great idea of how long the dart is airborne. Tod's enthusiasm is so much fun. My reaction to seeing the pumbata land, "F'kin' Hell!"
I was recently commissioned to weld together a battering ram (the boring handheld kind) for a police department and I offered to add a Go-Pro mount to it but they wouldn't let me.
It was slowed a bit
Those giant darts seem incredibly accurate, the thing I'd seem them being used for is maybe targeting siege towers and war elephants. The war elephant thing might be a tell as to why it was more of a Middle Eastern thing
There no recorded use of elephants west of iran in the Islamic era though
Another possible factor could be the lack of easy rocks.
I have lived in Phoenix AZ and did military training at Ft Benning in the state of Georgia. I grew up and still live in New England.
New England has a WEALTH of glacially broken rocks (granite, quartz, gneiss, etc.), to the point that every farm and field used to be defined by a fieldstone wall between knee and waist high. And the big rocks keep rising out of the ground every year wherever you loosen the soil.
In the Southern parts of the US, I found only the occasional chunk of sandstone and a LOT of hardpack sand faking it as sandstone.
-
I wonder if that dearth of good available stone might be part of why trebuchets were loaded with bolts instead of stones?
@@MonkeyJedi99
If you have to carry ammunition with you, a 4 pound dart will also do more damage than a 4 pound rock at the same speed, so your ammunition has more bang for it's weight, saving weight carried.
@@Ranstone Fair POINT.
@@MonkeyJedi99 Very insightful observation, that would certainly make a lot of sense. If you can just find a bunch of rocks _wherever_ you set up the trebuchet then you might as well use them but if you're somewhere with different geology then you're gonna need different types of ammo.
I would sure hate to be the guy who's job it is to carry a 40lb rock through the desert to Jerusalem or whatever lmao
Always brightens my day when tod uploads
It's just unbelievable how fun this has to be for Tod, also I am really impressed that we got so much great GoPro footage and somehow didn't end up with it being destroyed. Great job!
I nearly lost it three times
@@tods_workshop Does it make up for the times you _have_ lost cameras?
No, that still smarts. A 50m plumbata throw and a snatched shot at near point blank - both really really unlikely
More of a modern analysis of the big darts' applications, but given the slightly longer range of the darts and the ability to penetrate and lodge in whatever it hit, an incendiary seems a good application. Punch through a roof and deliver the payload to the interior of the building, ideally to the attic or loft area. It'd definitely lodge deeply into a thatched roof, and could penetrate slate or tile if the angle was right.
i thought the same thing. incendiary arrows are tricky because a small flame can be snuffed out by being shot at high speeds, but a *big* flame could make the transit
@@mcgoose258 Well, in a pseudomedieval scenario (S.M. Stirling's novels of The Change come to mind) you could use a hollow shaft and run a fuse to it.
More prosaically, wrap the incendiary behind the head and light it with a fuse. It's a lot harder to fight incendiaries when they aren't drawing a graceful arc of flame behind them. And rags soaked in pitch with plenty of saltpeter to add oxygen and make it sputter and throw embers out...
@@christopherreed4723 yes, it wouldn't be particularly hard.
I agree, but usually in art incendiaries are very clearly indicated and in the pictures I have seen they are not shown as incendiaries
@@christopherreed4723 and of course Stirling did use what I took to be cluster plumbata in the battle on the ice where Jake sona Jake ( spelling is awful) was killed.
Says his first name three times in the intro. Still one of the best historical weapons TH-camrs on the platform.
Yes that always boggles me xD
Technically not his first name, short for Todeschinii
@@Batmack wait - I thought his full name was Tod Todeschinii
@@joge3031 No, it’s Tod Todeschinii from Tod’s workshop and Tod Culter.
@@johnnevin7320😂lol
1:10 the first thing that came to my mind: 'Let's try to hit the deer with the Trebuchet'😂😂😂
Saw the deer wander in at 0:54.... get it get it...
"This is my hunting trebuchet."
You can tell, because of all the wood furniture one.
A black one would be banned!
Interesting ….. It is illegal to hunt any game or wild bird in the UK with a bow or crossbow and in Northern Ireland (only) by “Any missile which is not discharged from a firearm including any arrow or spear” ( Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended in 2011), Wildlife (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 (as amended in 2011)) but Trebuchets are not mentioned in the 1981 Act. It would not be illegal per say, but expect to be taken to court anyway under one of the animal cruelly laws so best not.
@@somersethuscarl2938 'accident' because obviously you cant aim with a trebuchet😂
Make a big circle and have the largest game of lawn-darts ever.
One thing I see this as useful for in a battlefield context is light fortifications or pavises...
I love the improvised plumbata area effect/multi stage munition. It's so obviously useful that I suspect it must have been tried at least once, methinks.
Love it! Big thanks to the farmer who let's you play in his field! Any way we can show our support for him? I know it's been a terrible year for farmers everywhere.
I love how the wood is seasoning. Take care to inspect the timbers, Tod!
Its got a few years yet
@@tods_workshop I'd hit like on a video documenting your inspection process! It'd be interesting to see if there's any repetitive stress damage too.
I was struck (did I just Pun?) by how nicely the trebuchet is settling in to become a part of the landscape.
Um 3.5 kilos is about nearly 8lbs, whoops!
Edit: best trebuchet video yet! The side by side darts, the plumbata scatter munitions! Top notch quality content a always! Thank you.
Thanks
Love the channel Tod, You are learning and having fun and you bring us along for the ride, Thankyou!
...great, COOL, epic!... I agree, and I absolutely LOVE your enthusiasm and you videoes. Keep them coming!
That was absolutely beautiful, and to be honest, it is so good to see something work just as planned, especially something as wild as plumbatae on a larget spear being lobbed! Lovely stuff! I hope to see more shenanigans of this sort. Beautiful! And I know it is a thing constantly repeated, but I still like the old "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". There is just so little that we have left from half a millenium ago, and while this thing is pretty out there, as you said yourself, they *could* have done it. Wheels on trebuchets though? Maybe they have done it and we just haven't found a mention or a sketch from the period yet, or we never will. At the end of the day, it is fun to try and play around with the machines and see what would have been possible with the technology of the day.
Watch the deer !
In a thousand years, an archaeologist will get a nervous breakdown when he discovers this trebuchet.
Tod your excitement is contagious!
It occurs to me that in some places there won't be much in the way of native rocks to throw. If you're carting your ammo in, it makes more sense to spend time making that ammo better. And that sort of wide muddy flood plain is more common in the middle east than in Europe.
You forget stone and quarries were hugely important during this era, so if you weren't heading to a place that had access to stone, then you were heading to a place that didn't have a castle to seige in the first place, less it was purely made of wood.
And if people would import in stone, they would certainly not have minded bringing along a wagon of stones for their army sieges too.
There were cities built entirely out of mud brick, like Timbuktu if I remember correctly. Stone wasn't ubiquitous.
Edit: Shibam in Yemen too.
I was worried about the deer for a second there
0:53
Love your energy.
Keep em flying
I bloody love this channel.
Honestly, loading giant darts in a trebuchet sounds like something I want to first test from behind cover. Just in case. o_o
Technically I think it has a lower chance of firing _backwards_ since it's so lite, but straight up is certainly an option....
Ya big wuss! ( I would totally hide lol )
The problem is that you don't know exactly what will happen, especially if something hits the frame, so you have to be ready to dodge and two is harder to dodge than one
One assumes Tod wears a Safety t-shirt, as does Joerge.
@@peterjackhandy I mean @ColinFurze has his safety tie...
There's a few regions in arabia where you'll find a lot of sand and very few rocks. In such conditions it would make sense to use giant darts
Good point
Tod, you are an utter madman! Thankyou for sharing your trebuchet and your unbridled joy with us. Here is hoping that you will have many more of these fantastic videos.
Thanks and it is fun, but I also learn and learning and fun is such a great combination
I love watching your enthusiasm at the work you do.
I wonder if Joerg could make a fuse-less release system for your cluster-plumbata siege dart. Great video!
That is certainly possible - two methods spring to mind, one has a sliding weight on/in the shaft that releases them - the initial launch pushes it to the back and keeps it "locked" but the weights own inertia should make it want to travel forward along the shaft as the shaft has masses of air-resistance so is slowing down and the weight isn't so aerodynamically effected, probably also pulled on by the plumbatas drag towards release (might upset the flight a bit much with the varied COM - without trials its rather impossible to know how heavy that sliding mass would need to be, I'd bet not very heavy though). Or my personal preference you lock the plumbata in against giant leaf spring near the head, so they are released on impact with the wall/ground - powered out sideways under shields info the poor sods lower legs..
@@foldionepapyrus3441 The first one was more what I was thinking, though more of a vague idea, haha. I could see both of your ideas incorporated into some monstrosity of a dart.
The Arabs also have Lamborghini police cars today in Dubai, so maybe the rule of cool worked back then too lol. Sometimes things are practical, sometimes people will go out of their way to do something because it's impressive or cool. We know allot now today about science, engineering etc. but people haven't fundamentally changed.
The curious and confused deer on the left side of the screen, starting at abot 1:00, just makes his enthusiasm even better
Your enthusiasm is it’s own reward! This has been both fun and a way to understand more. Thanks
Thanks
Just incredible, that was such fun to watch
Thanks
I could see this as being effective at attacking formations (especially cavalry) hiding behind a wall or for piercing a hoarding roof.
i dunno. if the formation had shields, im not sure what this would do, except maybe break the arms of a couple dudes. itd be very spooky though, which has real value. pretty sure a heavy rock would do more damage though.
@@LynxxXVI It's about maximizing energy output. You can put all your energy into one rock or you can launch several darts with the kinetic energy of each all focused on their points. I really don't see a shield stopping one of those dart heads coming in at terminal velocity.
I love you enthusiasm for medieval stuff. Good work and video todd
Goodness, what brilliant raw footage, thank you!
Hey
hello first
0:54 🦌
Yeah, that was a bit of a surprise *G*
I love the fact that Tod has just accepted the fact that the projectiles he build are dead set on breaking his go pros, to the point he is using them as bait.
Really top notch ... thank you Todd!
@0:49 Even the deer in the field wants to know whether the trubuchet works with darts! Medieval cluster ammo is definitively something worthy of attention, even for the animal kingdom....
I haven't seen the illustrations you mention, but I wonder how well a tail hooked version would work (would lay in the reverse direction on the launch table)? The head would need to be heavier, and simpler (cone shape instead of fins). Basically thinking along the lines of a large Plumbata (1.5-2M long) or Lawn Dart. With the end over throw on release, it probably would go higher and land harder.
This is exactly what I was hoping to see from Tod soon! I think his plumbata videos demonstrate how well darts naturally travel when thrown in the manner you describe.
Is nobody going to mention the dear that walks into the shot at 0:52 and just stares at Tod, like "what on earth is he doing this time?"
I absolutely love this channel!
I feel the darts are perhaps a bit too light, they get up to speed nicely on launch but seem to lack the mass to keep momentum against wind resistance in flight. I suspect there would be a sweet spot between launch speed and carry distance. When distance casting with a fishing rod (similar physics to a trebuchet) you need to get the right balance between the casting lead being light enough that you can accelerate it effectively without overloading the rod but heavy enough that it maintains speed otherwise it won't fly in a parabolic arc but reach a certain distance and then just plummet out of the sky. You can punch a 2oz lead out much faster but a 3.5oz lead will go far further with the same amount of effort.
It's utterly amazing at how you are showing us how heavy darts were flung at charging calvary or advancing foot-soldiers. Brilliant Tod! I wonder if the Ukrainians would like to have a trebuchet loaded with two giant darts at their base camps?
Absolutely beautiful!
I love your enthusiasm, I've had a very long and hard week at work, 15 minutes of this video and I have a smile on my face, thank you!
Very nicely done.
For the carrier version, does it need something actively releasing? Timing the fuse is clearly far too fiddly to work reliably... So, a catch that releases the smaller darts automatically due to gravity after the top point of the trajectory?
Maybe something that ties the release of the darts to the release of the rope from the pin, with just 2 or 3 seconds of delay. Something like first putting the yarn that releases the plumbata over the pin (coming in from the shaft side), and then putting the rope loop over the pin (coming in from the outside) would release the yarn at pretty much the same time as the rope. And then it should just be a matter of winding the yarn around the shaft a few times for delay and of figuring out something that reliably releases the darts.
You say that, but such fuses were used in mortars as early as the 1600s, artillery men learnt how to time it mostly reliably to get good air burst fairly quickly.
Do you think there's a possibility that an armourer/enginer somewhere put an angle on the headplates and or fletchings, and maybe increased the stability and distance?
And would adding 'thread' aid or hinder the release, and cause less or more stress on the stress fracture line that repeated loosing must create?
Could such darts even be made to shatter/splinter on hitting the ground intentionally?
I doubt they were into flight or gliding in that way, but you never know. The wooden flights on crossbow bolts are definitely curved into a chord to induce spin, so they knew about that.
Shattering deliberately is definitely possible - your weighted head ends up being a barbed pyramid wedge like nail to hold it into the shaft with a pretty blunt nose, so when it hits that wedge makes absolutely sure to split the shaft dramatically even when impacting on a softer target. But as shooting at fortification is the usual goal and those are full of brick/stone/heavy long seasoned timbers I don't think you need to worry much about doing anything special to make it shatter - impacts on such hard targets will likely make the shaft explode most of the time no matter how hard you tried to make it survive.
We know concepts of gliders exist a fairly long way back into history - Davinci's many drawings proving that at least by his time some of the concepts have to be pretty well understood (at least by some), so in the latter part of the middle ages its quite plausible the darts were much more sophisticated aerodynamic devices than just weight at front drag at back, but I do doubt it goes that far - what is more important being able to fire 500 less accurate slightly lower range darts or 100 of the more refined tricky to make darts... I'd say its not near enough of a force multiplier to be worth it for anything other fun.
Awesome work as usual. Thanks.
Absolutely brilliant stuff!!!😃
Do you have the references for those arabic illustrations? Are they for counter weight trebuchets or "hand" ones? Are they depicting contemporary battles or historical ones? Are they mentioned in any period accounts in text?
look up 'military technology elegant trebuchets"
If you can work out how when the 2 darts would reach the top of their arc on average, how long a bit of fuse that would be, have the join between the 2 fuses as the point in time to release, .... maybe the plumbata would end up allove the place or falling short, though you could work out the best point of release to either spread them out or cluster them closer together I suppose. The big dart spinning would just scatter them more or leave to wind resistance if it does not.
If teh big darts do carry further then maybe the plumbata secondary payload would be the clusterbomb part of it. Fiddly, but maybe worth it throwing in a few here and there for harassment backwhere they think they're safe...?
Yes. My friend 👌
Awesome! And thanks for the extra footage at the end!
Those plumbata cluster darts are one of the most badass things I've ever seen put through a piece of siege equipment. Absolutely class.
Alright, it's settled: You have to launch some kind of large hand-launch glider out of that thing. The potential distance of such a flight is just too high not to give it a shot.
With a fixed wing glider I suspect the wings would be pulled off by the acceleration. Although you COULD use a spring extension/rotation mechanism to extend the wings once the acceleration stops (the trebuchet sling slips off). That sounds like a good collaboration with either Tom Stanton or (Lord help us) Colin Furze
@@michiganengineer8621 Colin Furze would be an amazing collaboration.
@@aureliusrusticus2320 I agree to be honest. It would also be a very SCARY collab! LOL He'd probably want to launch a pulse jet powered plane using the trebuchet
I didn't give Colin Furze a job 10 years ago - probably a bad move
@@tods_workshop Well, at least your workshop hasn't burned down or exploded.
One thing I've always wondered is if they used trebs to throw bombs, like small gunpower filled recipients of some sort with a lit fuse
Not that I know of
Dragons tears, molten lead in a rough fired, clay pitcher. Also plumbater in a type of flangable wicker basket. Also a sled type dray with oxen to move the trebuchet around.
That is wild! Thanks for the content!
We always find Todd's videos entertaining and informative.
This one has reached a new high especially on the entertainment level. He has offered opened a new way of looking at the trebuchet as an offensive weapon as well as a potential defensive weapon. With the darts it would be useful for defence as well.
Such good fun watching you having fun. Plus trebuchets.
I think Tod hitting the knight is like a dog chasing a car. He won't know what to do when it actually happens! Hahah
faint probably
This is something I always thought about and wondered about. Thank you for doing the hard part of actually doing it!
The sheer joy Tod exudes in these videos is so invigorating and fun to watch!
That's awesome Tod!!!!
Always you and darts. Tod and darts. Darts and Tod. And now, Tod, Trebuchet, and Darts. Bloody hell what a glorious video. Keep it up sir
Love your videos, love your nerdy enthusiasm, makes one want to go out and get a trebuchet of their own
Todd is always so adorable when having fun with his giant physics machine. :-) Absolutely cool as hell.
I'm jealous, you have so much fun with all your videos!!!! Keep em coming..
Mate ya having way to much fun . Love it
Your earnest enjoyment of all this is beautiful.
This is the coolest trebuchet video so far.
Yes! Definitely cool! So glad you tried it!
I feel like experimental archeology is one of my favourite things to see when done right, and this is absolutely done right! Love the experimentation!!
I love your channel. Thanks
Duuuude! So cool! Keep playing, keep showing us!
"Cluster munitions... brilliant." - Tod, 2022
That GoPro footage is amazing!
This series leads to the most amazing air shots ever seen. I know it is a lot of work, but I would love to see a compilation of these shots (e.g. when you see the second dart while the gopro-dart turns, that gave me chills and 100% Top Gun vibes)
Very very cool. Thanks for the video.
Duuude this was *so* interesting. That dart footage especially 😌🤌
The absolute joy as the plumbata deployed! Love these videos! Love seeing you have so much fun!
A great end to the day. Thank you, Tod.
The last one with the spinning release looked very cool, and the centripetal force threw them out, widening the scatter. Too cool!
Your love for what you do, your enthusiasm, it gives me so much happiness... never change, good sir.
Nice one Tod!
The enthusiasm on a morning before coffee is a bit wearing.
Once over the caffeine barrier however, its a great wee movie.
This man is one of the few to have found his niche in life and he is revelling in it.
Grand movie Tod, keep it up.
Incredibly interesting.
The shot at 13:10 where the rope jolted the gopro mount just enough to see the trebuchet being left behind was _so cinematic_
Straight up video game trailer moment
Your absolute glee is nearly as exciting to experience as the trebuchet experiment. Love the stuff, sir!
That was epic indeed. Nice work 😁
Tod is transitioning further and further along the road to becoming a catapult-based mad scientist and supervillain.
I for one love coming along on that trip
Spectacular!!!