This may well be the cause of an apology video. I looked at the picture and saw the shading as the shield curving up at the edges so the darts were on the inside and I dismissed the lack of a grip simply down to the fact he could not resolve the details and just moved on. I would still argue that the drawing looks like the shield curves with the darts inside, but that picture is badly shaded; others may disagree. However I concur that most likely the darts were on the outside, which of course makes more sense. Tod, don't jump to conclusions! I considered Matts plumbata thought and in fact did another video on a similar subject a couple of days later (not yet released as of 8 Jan 21) and yes I am am fairly sure these were Mariano Taccola trying to reinvent/present or whatever his readings on plumbata, probably from Vegetius. But more of that line of thought is to come....
I'm not 100% convinced that Mariano was trying to reconstruct the plumbata. Even to Italians who can't speak Latin, the name "plumbata" should suggest a connection with "piombo" (=lead) and "piombata" (=leaded, with a weight), therefore to something heavy or which has a sort of ballast. Those darts don't appear to be of that kind. On this topic, i wonder how Mariano's darts compare in terms of mass with actual plumbatas. In theory, given the same mass, they should outperform plumbatas thanks to a more efficient launching system. What's going on?
If they are on the outside of the shield, then I suspect they wouldn't have had barbed heads on them, because the head may get caught up on the straps if you pull the up out of the loop. If you have to reach around the shield to pull the fletchings down through the loops, you expose yourself more. If they had bodkin heads, you could just grab them by the fletchings and pull them up over the top of the shield without having to expose yourself. Also, the drawing seems to show something more like bodkin heads than barbed broad heads. Just my thoughts on the matter.
@@marcz2903 You expose yourself plenty to throw them, which doesn't matter as the distances don't make sense; by the time you're truly vulnerable to bow fire, you can throw darts back at them or close enough. That is to say, the bow troops are more likely to stay away from you, which is protection in itself. Tod, something I'd like to see is an attempt at actually retrieving them from the shield and throwing them while running. I think that'd decisively prove how useful--or not--these are and why we don't see it depicted anywhere else, besides the obvious armor race of the period.
@@cheyannei5983 you don't necessarily have to expose yourself when you throw the dart. You could still hold your shield in front of you and throw the dart over it
I wonder if the manuscript is depicting the darts attached to the face of the shield and not the back? There doesn't appear to be straps depicted on the image. If the darts were attatched to the front you would still be able to both use and carry the shield which as you both pointed out would impeded by them being on the back. Fascinating video, thanks guys!
@@danmorgan3685 I still miss my Jarts. They were confiscated ,by concerned parents ,about sixty years ago. To be fair, they were sticking in ten year old heads all over the country. Kids loved them. We went back to throwing un husked walnuts at our “enemies”. I still have a mark. Lucky it wasn’t from Jart!
Obviously skeleton warriors love the big dart things, because they're inherently resistant to projectile weapons (arrows and darts just pass through between the bones without doing any damage) so enemies can't throw these back at them and friendly fire doesn't do any damage either. Especially considering that skeleton troops would have been most often deployed to terrorize mostly unarmed and unarmoured peasants.
Their whole ribcage can be used to store up the darts, that gives them quite the advantage to harass unarmoured peasents. The dreadful looks, like if they fell victim to that many darts before rising up from the dead, is only an added bonus.
Hehe, the real danger of an animated skeleton using ranged weapons is that they have extremely steady aim (hands), in theory making them super deadly accurate. ;)
I think think the idea that this was a medieval interpretation the Romban Plumbata makes a lot of sense, what is a really tantalising thought to me is the idea that they took the Roman idea (such as them being stored in a shield) as their starting point and then made it work in the context of a medieval battlefield - hence the massive increase in shaft length, and hence the thumb loop. I think we sometimes view post-dark ages historical periods without remembering that they too had access to the classical 'back catalogues' too - almost of our written knowledge of antiquity ultimately comes from texts that have been preserved by successive eras. Wonderful video as always and the collabs with Matt Easton are always awesome.
I think that's exactly the point. Roman republican legionaries carried two pila javelins in their left hand behind the shield and later imperial armies were accustomed to simplified version of the pilum, cheaper to make, with a barbed-like head, called verutum if I recall correctly. I don't know if the veruta javelins had fletches, but they were pretty much contemporary to the plumbata according to Vegetius, so it seems logical the concepts sticked together in sources and in collective military memory.
@@davidegaleotti94 Great Point, it could be a conflation of Plumbae and Verutae or a simple case of convergent evolution. However, if the text does indeed reference Plumbata then that's a pretty big hint. The key thing is we can never really know, I do believe though that the medieval period were certainly aware of Roman achievements and so it would be strange if they didn't attempt to reproduce and test those Roman inventions that they had access to.
@@2sudonim not true. There's references to antiquity in the dark ages, and the renaissance was preceded by a mini renaissance in the 13th century. Obviously the Muslims lived in a lot of the places important for antiquity, but it's a myth that it was Muslims rediscovered roman writings for an ignorant christendom.
@@2sudonim The west had preserved a good amount of Roman sources; most of what has been preserved comes from the Carolingian renaissance. Many ancient sources, specially greek ones, were recovered from the Muslims, and translated mainly in Spain in the 1200s. The last main moment of recovery of ancient texts is the fall of Constantinople, with Byzantine academics fleeing to the West. By the time the manuscript shown in the video was written, the transmission of ancient texts from the Muslim world to the Latin world had concluded a long while ago.
Also, experience with air defense against ground attack aircraft suggests that giving soldiers a way to feel like they are hitting back is good for morale. So if the front lines can feel like they are able to hit back against harassers, or if the guys in the back can throw some darts over the melee into the back lines of the enemy, it's good for your army even if it might not do a lot of damage because of good armor or overshooting their lines, or whatever.
@@twoskies3226 The classical proof of this is the IL-2. Almost useless at ground attack, incredibly resource intensive, and Stalin threatened a factory manager with purging for low output. Simple: only the SS units were crazy enough to advance under the incredible rocket strafing runs that the IL-2's would operate on infantry, and when they ran out of those they had a surplus of machineguns to unleash on them. Completely ineffective, though, a small flight of them could stall out an advance of hundreds of soldiers for a whole day. 'As important as air and bread', indeed!
That’s a good point. Whenever I watch recaps of ancient or medieval battles the way massively numerically inferior armies can win a battle primarily by scaring and routing the enemy is incredible and happened pretty often. I feel like a lot of casual and even professional historians neglect the human and subjective aspects of a battle in favor of only the objective aspects
That is such an interesting take! Whenever I come across classic ranged warfare I'm reminded about Caesar writing something similar in his de bello gallico. There he mentions how you can easily lower the enemies' morale and urge them to charge recklessly by peppering them with missiles. He even acknowledged that the damage they did was neglegible, but mentions the psychological effect it has when you can't see where the arrows are going to hit next and are victim to them instead of an "honest" melee fight.
Tod, with the "Weird Weapons" you have come up with an absolutely genius formate. It is both entertaining and educative, really really amazing to watch and have the two of discuss your assessment of weird weapons!
The cool thing about weird weapons with Tod is that he just makes real functional versions of them and can actually test them. Most other creators don't have access to this ability.
Hi Tod. I think you and Matt should check out the Jagerstock at some point. It’s a double ended spear that balances in the middle and according to the source we have it was good against multiple opponents. besides having two points it’s an otherwise ordinary spear and mostly shaft but the balance and utility of having two sides seems to lead itself well to quickly bringing a point to bear if people try to surround you. Sparring footage of that might be fun!
George Silver's "short staff" was likely very similar. The one apparent illustration of it shows a point on each end, & Silver instructed stabbing with the butt if at close range. He wrote that a person with a short staff has the odds against two opponents with sword & dagger or the like.
That's very interesting and I'd never heard of it before. It looks like it was less a two-ended spear and more like a staff with two butt-spikes like those on hoplite's spears
@@davidegaleotti94 Haha I see why that popped in your head. Its not quite the same thing of course since most of the weapon is handle rather than blade making it more practical and unlikely for you to strike yourself with it but you do absolutely swing the thing like a staff sometimes as you sometimes do with other kinds of spear.
It's so cool to see you make something from a picture, and then try it out. Then see you playfully competing with one another to perfect it. Whether or not it was used in warfare, I bet it was a fabulous tool for sport!
Tod's Workshop One question I had regarding the drawing from the manuscript: To me, the absence of any kind of handle on the shield is quite glaring, to the point of making me suspect we are looking at the outside of a shield. Why WOULD you have those large darts interfere with your grip on your primary means of self defense, your shield? Then again, I do think you are right in saying that this is medieval speculation. I feel like a contraption this noteworthy would be, well...noteworthy. Yet we see no other depictions of it anywhere. Of course, absence of proof is not proof of absence, but still
The Catalan company who were hired by the Byzantines also used really short throwing spears. The Almogavars were very light infantry that used them with devastating effect. They lived in the 13th and 14th century.
Tod, I'd like to tell you about some modern spear throwing mechanics. You have different degrees of stiffness of spears, something that you might want to think about. Stiff spears will generally be more unforgiving when thrown, because there is less virbration in the spear, so less area for the wind to catch on to and influence the spears flight trajectory. Softer stiffness of a spear will result in a more forgiving throw, because the spear vibrates more and gives the wind more area to push up on and correct the flight trajectory. I'd love to see you play around with the type of wood and its stiffness, and see if a less stiff "spear" of yours will fly better, more accurate or further.
I'm also wondering about the typical atlatl depiction connecting the chucker-arm to the butt of the javelin. Whereas the adjustable thong connects to somewhere in the middle.
This has more to do with my personal history rater than actual historical study ...... Nearly 50 years ago we kids would make "Throwing Arrows" out of broken brush staves (so about 1" or 25mm) and 2 -3 ft long. We would throw them by having a piece of string with a knot at one end and a loop at the other. The arrow was held near the point with the string round a finger and running tightly down the length of the shaft to near the fletchings, in a half hitch with the knot stopping it coming undone. The best throws were like an overhand cricket bowling action. The string accelerated the arrow to great effect and I cannot remember a single time the string did not release cleanly. Now this would be difficult to verify in today's H&S era, but ........ They came in with a hell of a scary whistle! If this method were to have been used historically it would have meant loading each arrow would have been as easy as knocking a traditional arrow. It would also have acted as a method of frightening those aimed at, at the very least giving them something else to think of rather than concentrating on killing the enemy.
Absolutely! That's what I was thinking. Would actually be easier to get out with arm in the shield and the shafts might potentially even provide a degree of protection against bladed weapon strikes if unused.
A reasonable idea, but given the length of those shield darts I suspect having them on the outside may make 'drawing' them from their loop + holster arrangement a bit more awkward; I can also imagine they'd make combat vs an opponent quite a bit trickier too (the ideal shield/armour design tends to be smooth so as not to catch & trap incoming impacts, but deflect them away).. but you'd have to have an expert in this sort of combat to argue/demonstrate why it's not such a good idea: I am in no way such a person! :)
But that would risk the darts being damaged by attacks towards the shield. I think having a hip quiver or even back quiver make mucg more sense. You bring 2-3 darts with your hand that carry the shield for combat ready.
Damn if you watch this episode out of context: "Lube adjustment" "Tweaking where they are on the shaft" "maybe the length of this" "how deep you put your finger into the ring" "Your natural reaction is to put your finger right in" "Because it needs to come out more easily."
At 1:43, when i look at the drawing i wonder if the darts aren't instead placed on the front of the shield. Because, if you look at the picture, the support rings would catch the arrowhead if you were to draw them upwards. So i figure if the darts were in the front, the user can draw the darts by using his otherhand, and that would be done by going around the shield and hooking the perfect throwing grip whilst the dart is still on the shield, then the user would use a two slide motion to remove the dart, firstly he would slide the dart up enough to clear the bottom pocket, and then he would slide down all the way until the fletching clears the support rings. This scenario allows the user to draw the darts and throw them without having to drop the shield or using two hands to adjust the thong grip. This is a very interesting set up, you have the darts until opponent closes in, and them switch to sword, all this without having to drop the shield, scary.
@@Brubigo Use exactly the technique you described, but with the darts mounted on the back, with the shield being held by a boss grip instead of strapping your forearm in the way. (with the advantages of being able to see what you are doing instead of reaching around blindly, and your throwing arm staying on the protected side of your shield.) Picture the shield as being in line with the striking surface of your left fist, not in line with your forearm.
@@muninrob so if the shield is on the left hand, you would take your right hand and go beneath your left arm to reach the darts on that side? Could work
@@Brubigo more under left wrist, but pretty much. On the left you're having to grip further down the shaft to draw and adjust grip to throw, so throw those first.
Watching you throw those darts took me back to the 80's, me and my mates used to make 'Dutch arrows' and spend hours lobbing then up and down the fields.
peltasts in antiquity wrapped the leather loop around the shaft 2-3 times that gives the javelin a rotation (like modern bullets) and therefore more stable flight, try it.
I love the Tod and Mat collabs. They are 2 of my favourite "medieval" youtube historians/vlogers. There are other good ones but these 2 stand out for me.
Could it be for use from horseback ? An alternative to horse archery. Throwing down over the shields into the faces of rear ranks? A pre-gunpowder kind of caracole manoeuvre maybe? Those plumbata are terrifying. Imagine defending a wall breach with thousands of those in the Napoleonic wars in Spain.
Lots of historical cavalry used javelins of various sorts. Some may have used something very similar to these shield darts. One account from Froissart has impressive penetration from cavalry javelins, so that type may have been rather heavier.
When I was a kid (I'm 61 now), we made some really rubbish arrows from bamboo cane and fletched using playing cards cut to shape. The tip was a nail with the head cut off and the front end of the cane as split and the nail shoved in backwards so the point was out the end and bound tight with tape or string. Then there was a technique where a string was wrapped around the cane (with the finger loop) and when thrown the arrow spun like a rifled bullet. I'm pretty sure we retained the string because there was something about trapping the end of the string by the winding so that when released would come free. I also used to chuck darts at the dartboard by the flights, both under-arm and like a normal dart but by the flights so that the weight of the tip made it turn in the air to land point first in the board. Accuracy was poor but it was fun to play about with. A thought about your setup, if you used a stick with a barb to hook the loop, would it give more distance due to leverage/acceleration ?
Though i haven't done a lot of research on this subject the concept is similar to what one heard called "The Swiss Arrow". Basically an arrow shaped projectile with a cord of some sort wrapped around it in a loosely twisted fashion that gives both extra leverage and a spin on the "arrow" to increase accuracy and power. The longer ones remind me of very thick atlatl darts just with the atlatl or thrower replaced with the piece of leather.
as a kid I make a huge dart out of a sharpened broom handle and duct tape for fletchings, that thing was way more fun to throw that I expected. These more historically accurate darts look even more fun.
Regardless of whether that interpretation of the manuscript might've been a bit off and the shield as designed wasn't a thing, I found this video very interesting to watch. In particular how much of a difference that simple loop of leather on the darts made and the observation that you can change the trajectory by shifting its position a bit.
Yeah, you would need to have some coordination and large enough units to throw a whole lot of them, so that any attempt at throwing back will be irrelevant compared to the damage they delivered.
Used these in Ireland and Scotland for sure, my Grandfather taught my Father and he was taught by his Grandfather in the 19th Century. Tod, the cord is used to throw, by having a thick knot, looped around once and laid flat, with a loop on the other end for your finger and thrown similar to an atlatl, but with more of a flick, once shown it is easy you dont need to do what you are doing with the leather, you can even throw longbow arrows like this.
Hi Tod I think you may have made a small mistake, from the diagram they seem to be on the outside not the inside of the shield. The lack of strapping for the arm (or space)0and the fact having the arrow shafts so close to the users face would in use be undesirable at best. Also look at where the arrow heads would have to go past his forearm that is a recipe for disaster. Also got one of your knives for Christmas and it is exceptional!
Well you would pull them out of the pouch at the bottom and them slide them downward anyway since you couldn't slide them up through the loop, because of the broadhead. So the blades would never go near the forearm. But there's still no way to actually hold the shield, and you'd think you either use the shield to protect yourself from projectiles, finish throwing your darts before you engage in melee range, or simply not care about the darts getting damaged. So I definitely like the darts on the outside idea.
@@mrkiky yep inside just makes zero sense. My guess is Tod copied a diagram from someone who was not the greatest artist and put the curve on the shield wrong.
Acid Flare - you nailed it! I read the (bad) shading wrong and assumed he did not bother showing the grip, but there is another drawing where the darts are on the outside and that does make much more sense
@@tods_workshop One would imagine protecting yourself with the shield whilst advancing the battlefield throwing these darts and picking them up as you go!
One idea I had for a D&D character was to have a breastplate or brigandine with a series of studs or hooks on the throwing arm's side just under the pauldron to loop the ankyles of a set of darts or javelins over (probably with some studs on the pauldron to keep the ankyles from getting tangled). Unlike wearing a sword or axe on the back, a javelin with an ankyle doesn't require any particular contortions to draw and isn't in any way impeded by a shield, and the drawing is practically part of the wind-up, making it a very smooth and fast process, smoother than a hip or shield holster. It also had the benefit of not strapping these delicate weapons to the front of a shield where they may get damaged (which matters less on a battlefield, but for a fantasy adventurer out of formation and away from supply lines it's a significant concern). I'm further reminded of an unrelated (and if anything even more fantastical) idea involving a revolver shotgun with an array of specialty shells (grenade, slug, flechette, shot, net, etc) in tube magazines on the back of a scutum, with a clever mechanism where the tips of the shells poked above the rim such that they could fit in the chamber if the shotgun were held at the proper (admittedly a bit awkward) angle. Then, when the shotgun was pulled back the shell would be freed from the catch keeping the shells from spraying everywhere and the spring force would load the shell fully into the chamber, where it would be held in place with magnets. It's nice to see some semblance of historical precedent for my ideas.
The way those darts are throwed, with the leather loop, reminds me of the Atlatl. Mechanically they seem to work in a similar way, with the length of the leather strip helping increase leverage
Really great to watch this content, and a massive compliment to you all making, testing and discussing how on earth old ideas and weapons were used. I wonder if these darts or spears could have been thrown using a throwing stick or atlatl type method, even on the leather loop. It gives far greater range and higher speed. A well trained person can be astonishing accurate with it.
Good stuff, from the drawing, could it be that the darts were fixed to the outside of the shield, as no hand loops were visible in the drawing that I could see. That would have worked as long as all were discharged before engaging the enemy at close quarters and thus presenting them with some ammunition that they could grab.
It looks likr the manuscript says: Dextrorum plumbatorum adversus sagittarios. Either 'The right-hand plumbata, opposite the archers' or 'Plumbata, suitable against archers'
Have you heard of medieval fire hoops? Hoops made of wicker dipped in pitch, set alight and thrown at enemies from castle walls. I believe they were mentioned in detail in a royal armouries yearbook and were from central Europe in the late medieval era. They were certainly used in the siege of Malta in the 1500s, which is all that I can really find easily online. There is sadly so little about these weapons out there. Yes they sound pretty dangerous but I'd love to see a recreation of one or even a video about them without physical demonstrations.
They were recorded to be used in the siege of Eger castle in Hungary. Hungarians were throwing these from the castle walls down unto the ottoman siegers.
This is pure gold. Living history through investigation, practice and interpretation. A wonderful video as always. Learning by doing, the best way with these things.
Great video, great collab, only two things I'd say is that any of those darts filling any area of the battlefield would undoubtly bother anyone going through it on foot, and last but not least, those things getting stuck on any part of your apparel or shield, even without causing damage, would be a pain in the rear and/or time waster when dislodging them. Cheers and thanks a lot for the great video!
As someone coming from the Finnish padded-weapons fighting scene,this is extremely intesting. We have used this sort of concept for years and it is very integral part of the game in here. We call them just javelins (heittokeihäs), but their purpose and one way of carrying these is exactly the same as introduced in this video. They're used mostly in skirmish fighting,but also in more organized fighting before the opposing sides engage each other.
One summer about 4 decades ago my grandfather (RIP) made a couple of throwing darts of similar length and weight. Slightly bulbous snub nose for safety. There was a ring notch 4-6 inches forward of the fletching to anchor the throwing string, which was not permanently attached, but held itself in place when throwing by use of a stop knot on the end. The string was much longer, ending in a loop for the finger. The dart was held slightly to the rear of the snub nose, between thumb and forefinger, finger firmly through the loop, string taught and tensioning against the stop knot. Me, as a short arsed 9 year old could easily throw one of these most of a football field. Over shorter distances with a flatter trajectory the power and accuracy was awesome, with practice. The string automatically disengaged from the dart as the dart passed the point of peak power input from the throw.
As kids in the 50s we played with this system using simple home made arrows and a shoe lace with a knot in it. 40yards was a typical average throw. The shoe lace had a knot about an inch from the end and the other end coiled around the index finger. With practice one could become quite accurate. I don't know why but we knew them as Welsh throwing arrows. I think the aboriginal woomara is a cousin of this method. Good luck with the channel.
Loving this series. Would love to see lantern shield with built in arm armour, though I appreciate that's a much bigger undertaking. I always thought Jamie Leinster should have had something like that made after he lost his hand, they even mention (,books I think ) that the golden hand can grip a shield but it's not great, and I'd really like someone knowledgeable to look at a similar systems utility for a handles person. Keep up the good work guys
The lantern shield has to be some rich person's one off commission. So many things about it don't make sense. Like why bother incorporating a gauntlet when you can just have a slightly bigger shield, that offers better protection and is easier to make. And just the fact that it's a lantern shield indicates it must have some super niche use. Maybe some nobleman was afraid of roaming through his castle alone when he couldn't sleep, so he commissioned an item to make him feel safer.
I can definitely see how Taccola's manuscript was most likely inspired by Roman plumbata. However, one difference I noticed is that all recreations I've seen of Roman plumbata were stored on the backside of center grip shields whereas Tod's recreation has an arm strap configuration. Seems like you could just hold the darts in your shield hand and not bother with the extra straps. Of course, depending on the size of dart you may not be able to carry as many.
Thank you for showing me so many things I would never otherwise see Tod. I very much enjoy your videos and the information you provide is the kind of history I love to learn about
Holy crap. I made a custom shield in D&D where you could do this--(and carry extra swords/axes as well) Now I can refer players to this video when they gripe, "That isn't real/wouldn't work".....This is so awesome.
As a young lad I use to throw Bamboo Darts but using a long piece of String with a knot on the end ..the string wound around the shaft & over the knot then back down to & wound around your hand..the String loop that stayed with you as you launched the Bamboo Arrow {a long way} & could be used again for the next shot.. That idea used on Tod's Shafts would save on a lot of loops being lost from being thrown away each time...
as a kid me and my friends would throw bamboo sticks at each other with this strap and loop technique- always found if you use your middle finger in the loop makes it much more dramatic, not sure if you get more purchase or what, but middle finger always worked better, we also used to use prussic knots so you have even friction on both sides of the loop
Reminds of what we used to make as kids, back in the 70' / 80's and we called "Scotch Arrows", no idea why Scotch, that was the name! Basically we took a garden cane, a couple of playing cards, an elastic band and a shoelace. Cut your cane near a knot, for the pointy end, and about 10-15cm (depending on card size) at the flight end. The cane was around 45cm long, depending on spacing of the knots and whether your mates had left you a decent length of cane. Split cane into 4 at the end, down to a knot, and make flights out of the cards (we cut them into heart shapes, folded in half and slotted into the cuts). Then wrap the elastic band around the end to stop the flights slipping out. Just below the flights, cut a notch in the cane. Tie a knot in the end of the shoelace. Wrap the shoelace around your hand (not the knotted end), to get a good grip, the knotted end is then wrapped around the cane, making sure the knot just sits to the side of the notch, then cross the lace over the knot and down towards the tip, this secures the lace around the arrow and it shouldn't move. Making sure the lace is tight, throw it! The lace adds the power you need and if I remember correctly, caused it to spin and keep nice and straight. Even as kids of 8 or 9 we could easily throw a lot further than you managed in the video, obviously thanks to the lightweight nature of the arrows, but, as I said, we were little kids. Probably couldn't do anything against armour, except annoy the enemy, but, may injure a horse if you were lucky.
That finger loop is a clever idea that I haven't seen before. In principle it reminds me a bit of the atlatl (increased leverage etc.). Sort of an adjustable atlatl, I guess.
I used to throw darts as a kid. We had the thong or sling length with a knot in the end. You loop it round the shaft and over the knot head, then hold it taught. You can use a longer cord, and grip it properly. It releases from the dart altogether.
The addition of the finger loop reminds me of the atlatl used by indigenous Americans for hunting. Difference being the thong is replaced by a formed launching stick and the spear is much longer.
Spending my childhood in a village called Skellow in Yorkshire we used to make what were called localy as Norman Arrows. They were made from long straight poplar sticks half inch round by around three feet long. The tips were sharpened and hardened in a fire. The flights were old playing cards if we could get them otherwise cardboard from a cornflakes packet. The flight end of the stick was split in 4 and the flights pushed into the split and bound in place with thread or fine string. The balance of the arrow was set by trial and error by weighting with unwound chicken wire. The launching mechanism was a length of fine waxed string secured by an overlapped knot at the end of the arrow above the flights . Throwing the arrow was a short run up and a strong overhand throw as in throwing a cricket ball. The string increased the length of your arm increasing power and velocity to the arrow. Distances of 2 football fields could be achieved and with enough practice we could be deadly accurate! used in level flight these things could easily kill a man! Weighted properly the arrow should "weave" in flight helping to gain more distance and penetration! another modification was to twist the flights so that the arrow would spin in flight. A true sign of a miss spent youth! An example of a Norman Arrow is lodged in the church steeple in Askern Village in Yorkshire near Robin Hoods Well and Doncaster. Great work, great channel, great fun.
It looks to me like the Plumbata was modernized into the (now banned) lawn darts game. They were a lot of fun as long as the throwing field was one way.
Being on the delivery end of a group of skirmishers chucking those would not be nice, would certainly break up a formation or at least make them hide behind shields. Very interesting find and practical testing.
Got this in my feed, thanks to subscribing to Matt’s channel. This brings me back to the Roman plubatarii in Rome Total War: Barbarian Invasion. It certainly makes the darts you get in a pub look quite tame. Best not try the plumbata in the pub though!
Fun fact: plumbata use continued on into WW1 with the early planes lacking any ordinance past guns or grenades and mortars stored literally between your legs and dropped by hand straight from the hand out of cockpit. They sometimes would fly over formations and trenches dropping steel and lead fletchettes by the handfull.
Well yes but no, the atlatl was well known to the medieval Europeans and had been since the Ice Age at least. I would actually hazard to guess that the reason the atlatl disappeared from the battlefield at the time it did is because the idea of replacing the external tool which could be lost or broken mid battle, with individual rawhide or leather loops which were attached to each individual projectile had evolved. Just a thought though.
I think it was Tod who showed how a string not fixed to the shaft, but lodged on a slit on the shaft, was used in Ireland(?) to cast the long fletched javelins shown here.
@@rexluna5430 Have you ever used one? Despite appearances, it's not a standard item, and throwers would customize them with weights in different places, different lengths, etc. It's virtually impossible to make a munitions grade, standard atlatl and darts, and still have an effective fighting force... not to mention the training required. Dealing with militias here, you know?
Having seen the good old fashioned shepherds sling being used to great effect in modern civil unrest, just imagine what some of Tod's other toys could do?
Tod, I don't always agree with you, but I respect the hell out of you. This was a great video! I think it would be amazing if someone started studying old javelins and spears to see if any of them had fletching.
I absolutely want people to not agree with me! (and thanks by the way). We all learn by exploring that cannot be done by consensus and I certainly do not have the ability to be right on everything (unless talking to my children in which case of course I am)
Instead of wrapping the leather, try cutting a small notch nearer to the fletching. Then use a piece of ligature with a terminated loop. Add the loop into the notch at the rear, then hold at the front to throw. The force will allow you to throw 5x further. We used to clear a football pitch with a 5ft plumbata.
I used to play quite a bit with amentum javelins. What I found is that the best cast is achieved ,when it's tied just an inch or so BEHIND the center of gravity. If it's too way back,like these, it drags the javelins rear down,and that produces unwanted drag. When tied directly on the center of gravity, it produces no tail downpull,but actually a tiny bit of it is beneficial,hence I tied them about an inch behind the CG. I was getting 40-45 meters distances with unfletched javelins. It's weight was around 350 grams,the amentum about 25cm, and the javelin about 130cm,because it alowed me to cast it a decent upward angle,without it's tail hitting the ground behind me,when in drawnback position just before the cast.
In a larger warfare sense these seem like they would be effective for scouting parties to carry if they aren't bringing archers. Equipping a group of 4-5 men with shields and plumbata or these longer war darts would give them a ranged weapon if they come across an enemy scouting party or are setting an ambush. If you can disable horses or lightly armored men before you move to close with your shield then it puts you at an advantage. These also seem like a good option for defending any fortification, since you wouldn't need the head room like you would with longbows. A low ceiling is less of an issue.
Not really a dart, but as a teenager I used a +-7/8 bamboo stick of 5 foot length with a small spearhead as a javelin. In a book about Greek & Roman warfare I found an image where a thread with a loop as wound around the shaft and not just parrallel. This adds rotation when thrown. The results were quite good. I doubt it would work when you have fletchings.
Study of wild chimps shows that they throw underhand, a much more natural motion than overhand. As for using shield darts, I can see a flanking attack on unarmored slingers, with the shield providing protection from slingstones.
I've watched twice now, beginning to end, I am curious as to how much for the long darts, short darts and plumbata, how to get the heads and weights and everything else. These look like such fun. Maybe even useful for hog hunting where legal.
I believe in general if you are throwing something at distance it will never be effective against armor & that is why those throwing darts are always seen with broadheads on them. The one exception to this is the roman pilum which can be effective against mail armor.
Perhaps the darts were stored on the front, giving you a handy way to carry the darts while maintaining the forearm loops on the back to allow for a traditional use of the shield.
Wonderfull and very fun video. A couple points: Javelins of various name and form where in use around the Mediterranean at the time (Spain and Sardinia as examples), grip shields in Italy where also on the rise thanks to reinassance fashion.
Thinking on how medieval art tends to exaggerate the barbs on arrowheads in the 15th century, is it possible that the barbs were originally less exaggerated? Also, you suggest that some javelins in museums might be darts, so I wonder how many have a swallowtail style and how many have a blade or bodkin head. If some have swallowtails, those might be good ones for museums that start examining for evidence of fletching. Fantastic video as always!
A close (ie microscopic) examination under polarised &/or UV light may reveal some interesting things WRT museums' stocks of early 'javelin' butt ends, but other than lack of budget I find it difficult to believe that this hasn't already been tried many times, even if unsystematically.. I'm not knowledgeable enough WRT forensic archaeological methods to suggest anything better, sadly :(
Great collaboration between two great specialists. About the skeleton throwing these arrows, maybe it is related to the fact that arrows often represented plague or similar diseases (as sent by God). Skeletons throwing arrows could easily represent an episode of Black Death. Anyway, it is exciting to see that there is still a lot to rediscover and understand in manuscripts and books.
I showed my godson, on an idle Sunday earlier this year how to build a - what I call - a 'French Arrow' - It's a slim bit of privot (In our case easiest way to get something straight) , sharp as one end, rudimentary fletching - a slice and a stiff leaf, tied at top with roots. A notch is made some 3 cm down from the fletch to allow a strap / twine / string - to allow for launching. Launch 'cable' has a knot which you engage simply, but effectively doubles or triples the range of the arrow - we were casting 1-2 meter 'arrows' some 100 meters with ~5m accuracy - which given their dire weight constraints wasn't bad. Have you heard of this ? - This is the first time I have seen a 'dart with a built in sling' mentioned - and it seems a terrific waste of material for the period. Cheers! Love the vids!
I feel it would make more sense to have the darts on the outside of a smaller shield. I also feel like this is the kind of thing that would make more sense in an arena type setting.
I remember using the "darts inside a shield" idea about 30 years ago playing D&D or Rolemaster. It's so long ago, but I -think- I got the notion from a rulebook. In any case, definitely not something I thought up on my own. I did envision them as lawn dart size not javelin size, concealed by the shield for a potential surprise attack.
This may well be the cause of an apology video. I looked at the picture and saw the shading as the shield curving up at the edges so the darts were on the inside and I dismissed the lack of a grip simply down to the fact he could not resolve the details and just moved on. I would still argue that the drawing looks like the shield curves with the darts inside, but that picture is badly shaded; others may disagree. However I concur that most likely the darts were on the outside, which of course makes more sense. Tod, don't jump to conclusions!
I considered Matts plumbata thought and in fact did another video on a similar subject a couple of days later (not yet released as of 8 Jan 21) and yes I am am fairly sure these were Mariano Taccola trying to reinvent/present or whatever his readings on plumbata, probably from Vegetius. But more of that line of thought is to come....
I'm not 100% convinced that Mariano was trying to reconstruct the plumbata. Even to Italians who can't speak Latin, the name "plumbata" should suggest a connection with "piombo" (=lead) and "piombata" (=leaded, with a weight), therefore to something heavy or which has a sort of ballast. Those darts don't appear to be of that kind.
On this topic, i wonder how Mariano's darts compare in terms of mass with actual plumbatas.
In theory, given the same mass, they should outperform plumbatas thanks to a more efficient launching system. What's going on?
It's 2022 Tod!
If they are on the outside of the shield, then I suspect they wouldn't have had barbed heads on them, because the head may get caught up on the straps if you pull the up out of the loop. If you have to reach around the shield to pull the fletchings down through the loops, you expose yourself more. If they had bodkin heads, you could just grab them by the fletchings and pull them up over the top of the shield without having to expose yourself. Also, the drawing seems to show something more like bodkin heads than barbed broad heads. Just my thoughts on the matter.
@@marcz2903 You expose yourself plenty to throw them, which doesn't matter as the distances don't make sense; by the time you're truly vulnerable to bow fire, you can throw darts back at them or close enough. That is to say, the bow troops are more likely to stay away from you, which is protection in itself.
Tod, something I'd like to see is an attempt at actually retrieving them from the shield and throwing them while running. I think that'd decisively prove how useful--or not--these are and why we don't see it depicted anywhere else, besides the obvious armor race of the period.
@@cheyannei5983 you don't necessarily have to expose yourself when you throw the dart. You could still hold your shield in front of you and throw the dart over it
Words alone cannot explain how fun plumbata are to throw!
I think that your enthusiasm for the weapon came across well in the video. 👍
you looked like a kid in a candy store there. ;)
So very true Matt
I wonder if the manuscript is depicting the darts attached to the face of the shield and not the back?
There doesn't appear to be straps depicted on the image. If the darts were attatched to the front you would still be able to both use and carry the shield which as you both pointed out would impeded by them being on the back.
Fascinating video, thanks guys!
Reminds me to grab the old rusty lawn darts my father has in his basement…
Tod is single-handedly resurrecting the lawn dart industry, with deadly lawn darts, longer-ranged deadly lawn darts, and weapon-grade javelins
There is so much fun to be had in this product area
Lawn javelins, I think you mean.
How do you revive a game that is too dangerous to play? If you're Tod, you make it more dangerous.
I love telling younger people about Jarts (a name brand for lawn darts in the US).
@@danmorgan3685
I still miss my Jarts. They were confiscated ,by concerned parents ,about sixty years ago. To be fair, they were sticking in ten year old heads all over the country. Kids loved them. We went back to throwing un husked walnuts at our “enemies”. I still have a mark. Lucky it wasn’t from Jart!
Obviously skeleton warriors love the big dart things, because they're inherently resistant to projectile weapons (arrows and darts just pass through between the bones without doing any damage) so enemies can't throw these back at them and friendly fire doesn't do any damage either. Especially considering that skeleton troops would have been most often deployed to terrorize mostly unarmed and unarmoured peasants.
The best way to deal with skeletons is to turn their ribcage into a xylophone.
th-cam.com/video/n8d2r7g-IZY/w-d-xo.html
can't argue with this logic Skeleton rangers are OP.
Their whole ribcage can be used to store up the darts, that gives them quite the advantage to harass unarmoured peasents.
The dreadful looks, like if they fell victim to that many darts before rising up from the dead, is only an added bonus.
Hehe, the real danger of an animated skeleton using ranged weapons is that they have extremely steady aim (hands), in theory making them super deadly accurate. ;)
I think think the idea that this was a medieval interpretation the Romban Plumbata makes a lot of sense, what is a really tantalising thought to me is the idea that they took the Roman idea (such as them being stored in a shield) as their starting point and then made it work in the context of a medieval battlefield - hence the massive increase in shaft length, and hence the thumb loop. I think we sometimes view post-dark ages historical periods without remembering that they too had access to the classical 'back catalogues' too - almost of our written knowledge of antiquity ultimately comes from texts that have been preserved by successive eras. Wonderful video as always and the collabs with Matt Easton are always awesome.
I think that's exactly the point. Roman republican legionaries carried two pila javelins in their left hand behind the shield and later imperial armies were accustomed to simplified version of the pilum, cheaper to make, with a barbed-like head, called verutum if I recall correctly. I don't know if the veruta javelins had fletches, but they were pretty much contemporary to the plumbata according to Vegetius, so it seems logical the concepts sticked together in sources and in collective military memory.
Actually, most Roman sources were lost during the middle ages. They had to be rediscovered from Muslim sources who had actually preserved them.
@@davidegaleotti94 Great Point, it could be a conflation of Plumbae and Verutae or a simple case of convergent evolution. However, if the text does indeed reference Plumbata then that's a pretty big hint. The key thing is we can never really know, I do believe though that the medieval period were certainly aware of Roman achievements and so it would be strange if they didn't attempt to reproduce and test those Roman inventions that they had access to.
@@2sudonim not true. There's references to antiquity in the dark ages, and the renaissance was preceded by a mini renaissance in the 13th century.
Obviously the Muslims lived in a lot of the places important for antiquity, but it's a myth that it was Muslims rediscovered roman writings for an ignorant christendom.
@@2sudonim The west had preserved a good amount of Roman sources; most of what has been preserved comes from the Carolingian renaissance. Many ancient sources, specially greek ones, were recovered from the Muslims, and translated mainly in Spain in the 1200s. The last main moment of recovery of ancient texts is the fall of Constantinople, with Byzantine academics fleeing to the West.
By the time the manuscript shown in the video was written, the transmission of ancient texts from the Muslim world to the Latin world had concluded a long while ago.
Matt's immediate delight at throwing the plumbata was very wholesome.
Also, experience with air defense against ground attack aircraft suggests that giving soldiers a way to feel like they are hitting back is good for morale. So if the front lines can feel like they are able to hit back against harassers, or if the guys in the back can throw some darts over the melee into the back lines of the enemy, it's good for your army even if it might not do a lot of damage because of good armor or overshooting their lines, or whatever.
@anysimmers I wasn't familiar with the story, thank you.
@@twoskies3226 The classical proof of this is the IL-2. Almost useless at ground attack, incredibly resource intensive, and Stalin threatened a factory manager with purging for low output. Simple: only the SS units were crazy enough to advance under the incredible rocket strafing runs that the IL-2's would operate on infantry, and when they ran out of those they had a surplus of machineguns to unleash on them. Completely ineffective, though, a small flight of them could stall out an advance of hundreds of soldiers for a whole day. 'As important as air and bread', indeed!
That’s a good point. Whenever I watch recaps of ancient or medieval battles the way massively numerically inferior armies can win a battle primarily by scaring and routing the enemy is incredible and happened pretty often. I feel like a lot of casual and even professional historians neglect the human and subjective aspects of a battle in favor of only the objective aspects
That is such an interesting take! Whenever I come across classic ranged warfare I'm reminded about Caesar writing something similar in his de bello gallico. There he mentions how you can easily lower the enemies' morale and urge them to charge recklessly by peppering them with missiles. He even acknowledged that the damage they did was neglegible, but mentions the psychological effect it has when you can't see where the arrows are going to hit next and are victim to them instead of an "honest" melee fight.
@@couchpotatoe91 sounds akin constant artillary bombardment.
Lindybeige did a video about that.
Tod, with the "Weird Weapons" you have come up with an absolutely genius formate. It is both entertaining and educative, really really amazing to watch and have the two of discuss your assessment of weird weapons!
Thanks and we are having fun with it
@@tods_workshop And the fun is very visible :)
I realy enjoy watching you two having fun, thx
Right!
@@tods_workshop please do fire arrows and compare etc
I love that people have always asked 'what if?' just like Tod and his peers do today. Seeing that old manuscript/doodle is a window into history.
The cool thing about weird weapons with Tod is that he just makes real functional versions of them and can actually test them. Most other creators don't have access to this ability.
Like I said at the start of this series - Matt can use them, I can make them and that has to be interesting
Hi Tod. I think you and Matt should check out the Jagerstock at some point. It’s a double ended spear that balances in the middle and according to the source we have it was good against multiple opponents.
besides having two points it’s an otherwise ordinary spear and mostly shaft but the balance and utility of having two sides seems to lead itself well to quickly bringing a point to bear if people try to surround you. Sparring footage of that might be fun!
George Silver's "short staff" was likely very similar. The one apparent illustration of it shows a point on each end, & Silver instructed stabbing with the butt if at close range. He wrote that a person with a short staff has the odds against two opponents with sword & dagger or the like.
I am the only one thinking "Darth Maul" ante litteram at this point?
That's very interesting and I'd never heard of it before. It looks like it was less a two-ended spear and more like a staff with two butt-spikes like those on hoplite's spears
@@davidegaleotti94 Haha I see why that popped in your head. Its not quite the same thing of course since most of the weapon is handle rather than blade making it more practical and unlikely for you to strike yourself with it but you do absolutely swing the thing like a staff sometimes as you sometimes do with other kinds of spear.
@@Subutai_Khan also the source does not depict any lasers I suppose :( meh
Tod: *Has Plumbata
Matt: *Turns into kid on Christmas morning
It's so cool to see you make something from a picture, and then try it out. Then see you playfully competing with one another to perfect it. Whether or not it was used in warfare, I bet it was a fabulous tool for sport!
It was interesting and any interaction with Matt always is, but I feel they were not ever used, just conceived
Tod's Workshop One question I had regarding the drawing from the manuscript: To me, the absence of any kind of handle on the shield is quite glaring, to the point of making me suspect we are looking at the outside of a shield. Why WOULD you have those large darts interfere with your grip on your primary means of self defense, your shield?
Then again, I do think you are right in saying that this is medieval speculation. I feel like a contraption this noteworthy would be, well...noteworthy. Yet we see no other depictions of it anywhere. Of course, absence of proof is not proof of absence, but still
This without a doubt the best colaboration series on all of youtube!
You and Matt have great chemistry on camera.
Thanks and we enjoy it
The Catalan company who were hired by the Byzantines also used really short throwing spears. The Almogavars were very light infantry that used them with devastating effect. They lived in the 13th and 14th century.
Tod - "I'm just going to take my thong off now."
I need to go into therapy.
I was giggling like a schoolboy around 11:34. Knowing exactly how much finger to put into the ring is very important.
You guys have dirty minds. I did not notice that until after you pointed it out 😀
Tod, I'd like to tell you about some modern spear throwing mechanics. You have different degrees of stiffness of spears, something that you might want to think about. Stiff spears will generally be more unforgiving when thrown, because there is less virbration in the spear, so less area for the wind to catch on to and influence the spears flight trajectory. Softer stiffness of a spear will result in a more forgiving throw, because the spear vibrates more and gives the wind more area to push up on and correct the flight trajectory. I'd love to see you play around with the type of wood and its stiffness, and see if a less stiff "spear" of yours will fly better, more accurate or further.
I'm also wondering about the typical atlatl depiction connecting the chucker-arm to the butt of the javelin. Whereas the adjustable thong connects to somewhere in the middle.
Interesting.
They pretty much proved exactly what your talking about during the javelin throw in "Revenge of the nerds"
Thanks AK
Sounds kind of like arrow spine.
This has more to do with my personal history rater than actual historical study ......
Nearly 50 years ago we kids would make "Throwing Arrows" out of broken brush staves (so about 1" or 25mm) and 2 -3 ft long. We would throw them by having a piece of string with a knot at one end and a loop at the other. The arrow was held near the point with the string round a finger and running tightly down the length of the shaft to near the fletchings, in a half hitch with the knot stopping it coming undone. The best throws were like an overhand cricket bowling action. The string accelerated the arrow to great effect and I cannot remember a single time the string did not release cleanly.
Now this would be difficult to verify in today's H&S era, but ........ They came in with a hell of a scary whistle!
If this method were to have been used historically it would have meant loading each arrow would have been as easy as knocking a traditional arrow. It would also have acted as a method of frightening those aimed at, at the very least giving them something else to think of rather than concentrating on killing the enemy.
We did the same in the early 60s only we used garden cane, but otherwise we threw with string as you describe.
What about putting the darts on the outside of the shield? Then you can still wear the shield.
Absolutely! That's what I was thinking. Would actually be easier to get out with arm in the shield and the shafts might potentially even provide a degree of protection against bladed weapon strikes if unused.
A reasonable idea, but given the length of those shield darts I suspect having them on the outside may make 'drawing' them from their loop + holster arrangement a bit more awkward; I can also imagine they'd make combat vs an opponent quite a bit trickier too (the ideal shield/armour design tends to be smooth so as not to catch & trap incoming impacts, but deflect them away).. but you'd have to have an expert in this sort of combat to argue/demonstrate why it's not such a good idea: I am in no way such a person! :)
That makes more sense to me. I don't see any indication in the original picture that they're on the inside of the shield.
Also the manuscript doesnt show any way to carry the shield on the side with the darts, indicating that it is showing the outside of the shield
But that would risk the darts being damaged by attacks towards the shield. I think having a hip quiver or even back quiver make mucg more sense. You bring 2-3 darts with your hand that carry the shield for combat ready.
Damn if you watch this episode out of context:
"Lube adjustment"
"Tweaking where they are on the shaft"
"maybe the length of this"
"how deep you put your finger into the ring"
"Your natural reaction is to put your finger right in"
"Because it needs to come out more easily."
"Let's remove the thong."
At 1:43, when i look at the drawing i wonder if the darts aren't instead placed on the front of the shield. Because, if you look at the picture, the support rings would catch the arrowhead if you were to draw them upwards. So i figure if the darts were in the front, the user can draw the darts by using his otherhand, and that would be done by going around the shield and hooking the perfect throwing grip whilst the dart is still on the shield, then the user would use a two slide motion to remove the dart, firstly he would slide the dart up enough to clear the bottom pocket, and then he would slide down all the way until the fletching clears the support rings. This scenario allows the user to draw the darts and throw them without having to drop the shield or using two hands to adjust the thong grip.
This is a very interesting set up, you have the darts until opponent closes in, and them switch to sword, all this without having to drop the shield, scary.
Or put the darts on a center-grip shield instead of a strapped shield.
@@muninrob but that would still force the user to drop the shield in order to access the further half of darts
@@Brubigo Use exactly the technique you described, but with the darts mounted on the back, with the shield being held by a boss grip instead of strapping your forearm in the way. (with the advantages of being able to see what you are doing instead of reaching around blindly, and your throwing arm staying on the protected side of your shield.)
Picture the shield as being in line with the striking surface of your left fist, not in line with your forearm.
@@muninrob so if the shield is on the left hand, you would take your right hand and go beneath your left arm to reach the darts on that side? Could work
@@Brubigo more under left wrist, but pretty much. On the left you're having to grip further down the shaft to draw and adjust grip to throw, so throw those first.
Watching you throw those darts took me back to the 80's, me and my mates used to make 'Dutch arrows' and spend hours lobbing then up and down the fields.
"Lawn darts"?
@@olmostgudinaf8100 These th-cam.com/video/T2SaGMdrwsI/w-d-xo.html
peltasts in antiquity wrapped the leather loop around the shaft 2-3 times that gives the javelin a rotation (like modern bullets) and therefore more stable flight, try it.
its called ankyle i think.
You don't need to rotate it if it has fetching
@@GarrettDore it might fly further and more stable that way. (Less air resistance)
At the time they do not use fletching.
Thanks Scout and I will try that out in a vid. I know it as an amentum, but this doesn't work with fletchings; you specifically don't want it to spin.
I love the Tod and Mat collabs. They are 2 of my favourite "medieval" youtube historians/vlogers. There are other good ones but these 2 stand out for me.
Thank you - very kind
Could it be for use from horseback ? An alternative to horse archery. Throwing down over the shields into the faces of rear ranks? A pre-gunpowder kind of caracole manoeuvre maybe? Those plumbata are terrifying. Imagine defending a wall breach with thousands of those in the Napoleonic wars in Spain.
Lots of historical cavalry used javelins of various sorts. Some may have used something very similar to these shield darts. One account from Froissart has impressive penetration from cavalry javelins, so that type may have been rather heavier.
Benjamin and also thrown in the direction of movement would pretty much double the effective velocity at impact
Fascinating to watch! Those Plumbata are badass... you would not want to charge straight on against a maelstrom of those being thrown at you.
When I was a kid (I'm 61 now), we made some really rubbish arrows from bamboo cane and fletched using playing cards cut to shape. The tip was a nail with the head cut off and the front end of the cane as split and the nail shoved in backwards so the point was out the end and bound tight with tape or string. Then there was a technique where a string was wrapped around the cane (with the finger loop) and when thrown the arrow spun like a rifled bullet. I'm pretty sure we retained the string because there was something about trapping the end of the string by the winding so that when released would come free.
I also used to chuck darts at the dartboard by the flights, both under-arm and like a normal dart but by the flights so that the weight of the tip made it turn in the air to land point first in the board. Accuracy was poor but it was fun to play about with.
A thought about your setup, if you used a stick with a barb to hook the loop, would it give more distance due to leverage/acceleration ?
Ah...same childhood as me then and as regards you last idea.....watch this space
The bootlace had a knot tide one end then wrapped the lace around the knot good memories of when I was the nail added the weight for the distance
Though i haven't done a lot of research on this subject the concept is similar to what one heard called "The Swiss Arrow".
Basically an arrow shaped projectile with a cord of some sort wrapped around it in a loosely twisted fashion that gives both extra leverage and a spin on the "arrow" to increase accuracy and power.
The longer ones remind me of very thick atlatl darts just with the atlatl or thrower replaced with the piece of leather.
honestly i love tis series of todd just suppling matt with weird shit to play with
as a kid I make a huge dart out of a sharpened broom handle and duct tape for fletchings, that thing was way more fun to throw that I expected. These more historically accurate darts look even more fun.
Regardless of whether that interpretation of the manuscript might've been a bit off and the shield as designed wasn't a thing, I found this video very interesting to watch. In particular how much of a difference that simple loop of leather on the darts made and the observation that you can change the trajectory by shifting its position a bit.
It is great seeing Matt get so in to Plumbata. His enthusiasm was great.
The one disadvantage I can think of with plumbata is that they seem really easy to throw back at whoever threw them
Yeah, you would need to have some coordination and large enough units to throw a whole lot of them, so that any attempt at throwing back will be irrelevant compared to the damage they delivered.
Query whether the darts were stored on the outside/front? Perhaps it's the picture's resolution but couldn't see the hand straps.
I just wrote a comment about this, i figure its on the front, i explained better at the comment
Alternative title: "Todd & Matt study the work of their medieval counterparts"
10:48 look at that grouping tho, RIP that one guy in particular
Used these in Ireland and Scotland for sure, my Grandfather taught my Father and he was taught by his Grandfather in the 19th Century. Tod, the cord is used to throw, by having a thick knot, looped around once and laid flat, with a loop on the other end for your finger and thrown similar to an atlatl, but with more of a flick, once shown it is easy you dont need to do what you are doing with the leather, you can even throw longbow arrows like this.
Hi Tod I think you may have made a small mistake, from the diagram they seem to be on the outside not the inside of the shield. The lack of strapping for the arm (or space)0and the fact having the arrow shafts so close to the users face would in use be undesirable at best. Also look at where the arrow heads would have to go past his forearm that is a recipe for disaster.
Also got one of your knives for Christmas and it is exceptional!
This makes a lot of sense.
Well you would pull them out of the pouch at the bottom and them slide them downward anyway since you couldn't slide them up through the loop, because of the broadhead. So the blades would never go near the forearm. But there's still no way to actually hold the shield, and you'd think you either use the shield to protect yourself from projectiles, finish throwing your darts before you engage in melee range, or simply not care about the darts getting damaged. So I definitely like the darts on the outside idea.
@@mrkiky yep inside just makes zero sense. My guess is Tod copied a diagram from someone who was not the greatest artist and put the curve on the shield wrong.
Acid Flare - you nailed it! I read the (bad) shading wrong and assumed he did not bother showing the grip, but there is another drawing where the darts are on the outside and that does make much more sense
@@tods_workshop One would imagine protecting yourself with the shield whilst advancing the battlefield throwing these darts and picking them up as you go!
One idea I had for a D&D character was to have a breastplate or brigandine with a series of studs or hooks on the throwing arm's side just under the pauldron to loop the ankyles of a set of darts or javelins over (probably with some studs on the pauldron to keep the ankyles from getting tangled). Unlike wearing a sword or axe on the back, a javelin with an ankyle doesn't require any particular contortions to draw and isn't in any way impeded by a shield, and the drawing is practically part of the wind-up, making it a very smooth and fast process, smoother than a hip or shield holster. It also had the benefit of not strapping these delicate weapons to the front of a shield where they may get damaged (which matters less on a battlefield, but for a fantasy adventurer out of formation and away from supply lines it's a significant concern).
I'm further reminded of an unrelated (and if anything even more fantastical) idea involving a revolver shotgun with an array of specialty shells (grenade, slug, flechette, shot, net, etc) in tube magazines on the back of a scutum, with a clever mechanism where the tips of the shells poked above the rim such that they could fit in the chamber if the shotgun were held at the proper (admittedly a bit awkward) angle. Then, when the shotgun was pulled back the shell would be freed from the catch keeping the shells from spraying everywhere and the spring force would load the shell fully into the chamber, where it would be held in place with magnets.
It's nice to see some semblance of historical precedent for my ideas.
The way those darts are throwed, with the leather loop, reminds me of the Atlatl. Mechanically they seem to work in a similar way, with the length of the leather strip helping increase leverage
Really great to watch this content, and a massive compliment to you all making, testing and discussing how on earth old ideas and weapons were used. I wonder if these darts or spears could have been thrown using a throwing stick or atlatl type method, even on the leather loop. It gives far greater range and higher speed. A well trained person can be astonishing accurate with it.
Good stuff, from the drawing, could it be that the darts were fixed to the outside of the shield, as no hand loops were visible in the drawing that I could see. That would have worked as long as all were discharged before engaging the enemy at close quarters and thus presenting them with some ammunition that they could grab.
Very cool and it looks like tons of fun. I know what my new back yard game is now. I'm loving this series. Keep it up
It looks likr the manuscript says: Dextrorum plumbatorum adversus sagittarios.
Either 'The right-hand plumbata, opposite the archers' or 'Plumbata, suitable against archers'
It's great the Tod keeps reminding us all to make sure your thong is in the right position.
Have you heard of medieval fire hoops? Hoops made of wicker dipped in pitch, set alight and thrown at enemies from castle walls. I believe they were mentioned in detail in a royal armouries yearbook and were from central Europe in the late medieval era. They were certainly used in the siege of Malta in the 1500s, which is all that I can really find easily online.
There is sadly so little about these weapons out there. Yes they sound pretty dangerous but I'd love to see a recreation of one or even a video about them without physical demonstrations.
I will be looking at incendiaries in due course
@@tods_workshop Awesome! In my mind there is no better person to do the subject justice!
They were recorded to be used in the siege of Eger castle in Hungary. Hungarians were throwing these from the castle walls down unto the ottoman siegers.
Matt's joy with the plumbata is so infectious!
This is pure gold. Living history through investigation, practice and interpretation. A wonderful video as always. Learning by doing, the best way with these things.
Great video, great collab, only two things I'd say is that any of those darts filling any area of the battlefield would undoubtly bother anyone going through it on foot, and last but not least, those things getting stuck on any part of your apparel or shield, even without causing damage, would be a pain in the rear and/or time waster when dislodging them. Cheers and thanks a lot for the great video!
As someone coming from the Finnish padded-weapons fighting scene,this is extremely intesting. We have used this sort of concept for years and it is very integral part of the game in here. We call them just javelins (heittokeihäs), but their purpose and one way of carrying these is exactly the same as introduced in this video. They're used mostly in skirmish fighting,but also in more organized fighting before the opposing sides engage each other.
One summer about 4 decades ago my grandfather (RIP) made a couple of throwing darts of similar length and weight. Slightly bulbous snub nose for safety. There was a ring notch 4-6 inches forward of the fletching to anchor the throwing string, which was not permanently attached, but held itself in place when throwing by use of a stop knot on the end. The string was much longer, ending in a loop for the finger. The dart was held slightly to the rear of the snub nose, between thumb and forefinger, finger firmly through the loop, string taught and tensioning against the stop knot. Me, as a short arsed 9 year old could easily throw one of these most of a football field. Over shorter distances with a flatter trajectory the power and accuracy was awesome, with practice. The string automatically disengaged from the dart as the dart passed the point of peak power input from the throw.
As kids in the 50s we played with this system using simple home made arrows and a shoe lace with a knot in it. 40yards was a typical average throw. The shoe lace had a knot about an inch from the end and the other end coiled around the index finger. With practice one could become quite accurate. I don't know why but we knew them as Welsh throwing arrows. I think the aboriginal woomara is a cousin of this method. Good luck with the channel.
The friendship between Tod and Matt will go down in history.
Loving this series. Would love to see lantern shield with built in arm armour, though I appreciate that's a much bigger undertaking. I always thought Jamie Leinster should have had something like that made after he lost his hand, they even mention (,books I think ) that the golden hand can grip a shield but it's not great, and I'd really like someone knowledgeable to look at a similar systems utility for a handles person. Keep up the good work guys
The lantern shield has to be some rich person's one off commission. So many things about it don't make sense. Like why bother incorporating a gauntlet when you can just have a slightly bigger shield, that offers better protection and is easier to make. And just the fact that it's a lantern shield indicates it must have some super niche use. Maybe some nobleman was afraid of roaming through his castle alone when he couldn't sleep, so he commissioned an item to make him feel safer.
Seeing that shield just makes me think of all the abuse it's taken in previous videos. The arrow holes, the axe and sword marks...
Poplar is the only way for shields; it has taken so much and is still here
I can definitely see how Taccola's manuscript was most likely inspired by Roman plumbata. However, one difference I noticed is that all recreations I've seen of Roman plumbata were stored on the backside of center grip shields whereas Tod's recreation has an arm strap configuration. Seems like you could just hold the darts in your shield hand and not bother with the extra straps. Of course, depending on the size of dart you may not be able to carry as many.
Yes the system as shown would be awkward as hell, but I was looking at the darts more and just recycled a shield I had here
Thank you for showing me so many things I would never otherwise see Tod. I very much enjoy your videos and the information you provide is the kind of history I love to learn about
Holy crap. I made a custom shield in D&D where you could do this--(and carry extra swords/axes as well)
Now I can refer players to this video when they gripe, "That isn't real/wouldn't work".....This is so awesome.
I love the idea of a renaissance interpretation of a classic era weapon. The todd workshop of its time doing weird weapons ^^
As a young lad I use to throw Bamboo Darts but using a long piece of String with a knot on the end ..the string wound around the shaft & over the knot then back down to & wound around your hand..the String loop that stayed with you as you launched the Bamboo Arrow {a long way} & could be used again for the next shot..
That idea used on Tod's Shafts would save on a lot of loops being lost from being thrown away each time...
"make the horses not want to do that anymore" is a very diplomatic way of saying "spearing a horse to death with throwing darts"
This is such a great series, Todd. You and Matt look to be having a bloody lot of fun.
as a kid me and my friends would throw bamboo sticks at each other with this strap and loop technique- always found if you use your middle finger in the loop makes it much more dramatic, not sure if you get more purchase or what, but middle finger always worked better, we also used to use prussic knots so you have even friction on both sides of the loop
I mean imagine 4-500 darts like that being flung at charging cavalry. The disorder caused would be quite spectacular. Great video as always.
Reminds of what we used to make as kids, back in the 70' / 80's and we called "Scotch Arrows", no idea why Scotch, that was the name!
Basically we took a garden cane, a couple of playing cards, an elastic band and a shoelace.
Cut your cane near a knot, for the pointy end, and about 10-15cm (depending on card size) at the flight end. The cane was around 45cm long, depending on spacing of the knots and whether your mates had left you a decent length of cane. Split cane into 4 at the end, down to a knot, and make flights out of the cards (we cut them into heart shapes, folded in half and slotted into the cuts). Then wrap the elastic band around the end to stop the flights slipping out.
Just below the flights, cut a notch in the cane. Tie a knot in the end of the shoelace. Wrap the shoelace around your hand (not the knotted end), to get a good grip, the knotted end is then wrapped around the cane, making sure the knot just sits to the side of the notch, then cross the lace over the knot and down towards the tip, this secures the lace around the arrow and it shouldn't move. Making sure the lace is tight, throw it! The lace adds the power you need and if I remember correctly, caused it to spin and keep nice and straight.
Even as kids of 8 or 9 we could easily throw a lot further than you managed in the video, obviously thanks to the lightweight nature of the arrows, but, as I said, we were little kids.
Probably couldn't do anything against armour, except annoy the enemy, but, may injure a horse if you were lucky.
Well started writing a book and now I’m changing around one of the main characters weapons. Like those little darts and shield
That finger loop is a clever idea that I haven't seen before. In principle it reminds me a bit of the atlatl (increased leverage etc.). Sort of an adjustable atlatl, I guess.
Once again, you're inspiring my writing, and war darts may have just appeared in the hands of one of the fantasy cultures I've created.
I used to throw darts as a kid. We had the thong or sling length with a knot in the end. You loop it round the shaft and over the knot head, then hold it taught. You can use a longer cord, and grip it properly. It releases from the dart altogether.
Tod, someone just reminded me that the godendag is a weapon that exists and now I desperately need to see you include it in the weird weapons series.
The addition of the finger loop reminds me of the atlatl used by indigenous Americans for hunting. Difference being the thong is replaced by a formed launching stick and the spear is much longer.
Another excellent collaboration, more, please?
Seeing those plumbata again reminded me that I'd still love to see half a dozen being flung from a staff sling :)
I had a small collection of plumbata when I was in the SCA about thirty years ago. They are like heaps of fun.
Spending my childhood in a village called Skellow in Yorkshire we used to make what were called localy as Norman Arrows. They were made from long straight poplar sticks half inch round by around three feet long. The tips were sharpened and hardened in a fire.
The flights were old playing cards if we could get them otherwise cardboard from a cornflakes packet. The flight end of the stick was split in 4 and the flights pushed into the split and bound in place with thread or fine string.
The balance of the arrow was set by trial and error by weighting with unwound chicken wire. The launching mechanism was a length of fine waxed string secured by an overlapped knot at the end of the arrow above the flights .
Throwing the arrow was a short run up and a strong overhand throw as in throwing a cricket ball. The string increased the length of your arm increasing power and velocity to the arrow. Distances of 2 football fields could be achieved and with enough practice we could be deadly accurate! used in level flight these things could easily kill a man!
Weighted properly the arrow should "weave" in flight helping to gain more distance and penetration! another modification was to twist the flights so that the arrow would spin in flight.
A true sign of a miss spent youth!
An example of a Norman Arrow is lodged in the church steeple in Askern Village in Yorkshire near Robin Hoods Well and Doncaster.
Great work, great channel, great fun.
It looks to me like the Plumbata was modernized into the (now banned) lawn darts game. They were a lot of fun as long as the throwing field was one way.
And here we are th-cam.com/video/1EFAVGIylqE/w-d-xo.html
Being on the delivery end of a group of skirmishers chucking those would not be nice, would certainly break up a formation or at least make them hide behind shields. Very interesting find and practical testing.
Got this in my feed, thanks to subscribing to Matt’s channel. This brings me back to the Roman plubatarii in Rome Total War: Barbarian Invasion. It certainly makes the darts you get in a pub look quite tame. Best not try the plumbata in the pub though!
Good day Tod Keep up the great content
Fun fact: plumbata use continued on into WW1 with the early planes lacking any ordinance past guns or grenades and mortars stored literally between your legs and dropped by hand straight from the hand out of cockpit. They sometimes would fly over formations and trenches dropping steel and lead fletchettes by the handfull.
The leather loop has essentially the same effect as an atlatl, totally different culture and time period though.
Well yes but no, the atlatl was well known to the medieval Europeans and had been since the Ice Age at least. I would actually hazard to guess that the reason the atlatl disappeared from the battlefield at the time it did is because the idea of replacing the external tool which could be lost or broken mid battle, with individual rawhide or leather loops which were attached to each individual projectile had evolved. Just a thought though.
@@rexluna5430 oh that's awesome. And indeed a plausible theory why some would prefer a leather loop. Do you know of any sources of medieval atlatl?
That was my first thought as well, a bit surprised they didn't mention it.
I think it was Tod who showed how a string not fixed to the shaft, but lodged on a slit on the shaft, was used in Ireland(?) to cast the long fletched javelins shown here.
@@rexluna5430 Have you ever used one? Despite appearances, it's not a standard item, and throwers would customize them with weights in different places, different lengths, etc. It's virtually impossible to make a munitions grade, standard atlatl and darts, and still have an effective fighting force... not to mention the training required. Dealing with militias here, you know?
Having seen the good old fashioned shepherds sling being used to great effect in modern civil unrest, just imagine what some of Tod's other toys could do?
Tod, I don't always agree with you, but I respect the hell out of you. This was a great video! I think it would be amazing if someone started studying old javelins and spears to see if any of them had fletching.
I absolutely want people to not agree with me! (and thanks by the way). We all learn by exploring that cannot be done by consensus and I certainly do not have the ability to be right on everything (unless talking to my children in which case of course I am)
Instead of wrapping the leather, try cutting a small notch nearer to the fletching. Then use a piece of ligature with a terminated loop. Add the loop into the notch at the rear, then hold at the front to throw. The force will allow you to throw 5x further. We used to clear a football pitch with a 5ft plumbata.
Love all the work you both do. Thanks.
I used to play quite a bit with amentum javelins. What I found is that the best cast is achieved ,when it's tied just an inch or so BEHIND the center of gravity. If it's too way back,like these, it drags the javelins rear down,and that produces unwanted drag. When tied directly on the center of gravity, it produces no tail downpull,but actually a tiny bit of it is beneficial,hence I tied them about an inch behind the CG. I was getting 40-45 meters distances with unfletched javelins. It's weight was around 350 grams,the amentum about 25cm, and the javelin about 130cm,because it alowed me to cast it a decent upward angle,without it's tail hitting the ground behind me,when in drawnback position just before the cast.
In a larger warfare sense these seem like they would be effective for scouting parties to carry if they aren't bringing archers. Equipping a group of 4-5 men with shields and plumbata or these longer war darts would give them a ranged weapon if they come across an enemy scouting party or are setting an ambush. If you can disable horses or lightly armored men before you move to close with your shield then it puts you at an advantage. These also seem like a good option for defending any fortification, since you wouldn't need the head room like you would with longbows. A low ceiling is less of an issue.
Not really a dart, but as a teenager I used a +-7/8 bamboo stick of 5 foot length with a small spearhead as a javelin. In a book about Greek & Roman warfare I found an image where a thread with a loop as wound around the shaft and not just parrallel. This adds rotation when thrown. The results were quite good. I doubt it would work when you have fletchings.
Study of wild chimps shows that they throw underhand, a much more natural motion than overhand. As for using shield darts, I can see a flanking attack on unarmored slingers, with the shield providing protection from slingstones.
I've watched twice now, beginning to end, I am curious as to how much for the long darts, short darts and plumbata, how to get the heads and weights and everything else. These look like such fun. Maybe even useful for hog hunting where legal.
I believe in general if you are throwing something at distance it will never be effective against armor & that is why those throwing darts are always seen with broadheads on them. The one exception to this is the roman pilum which can be effective against mail armor.
Perhaps the darts were stored on the front, giving you a handy way to carry the darts while maintaining the forearm loops on the back to allow for a traditional use of the shield.
Really interesting idea to use the shield as an improvised quiver
Great to see how much fun you guys have!
Wonderfull and very fun video.
A couple points: Javelins of various name and form where in use around the Mediterranean at the time (Spain and Sardinia as examples), grip shields in Italy where also on the rise thanks to reinassance fashion.
Thinking on how medieval art tends to exaggerate the barbs on arrowheads in the 15th century, is it possible that the barbs were originally less exaggerated?
Also, you suggest that some javelins in museums might be darts, so I wonder how many have a swallowtail style and how many have a blade or bodkin head. If some have swallowtails, those might be good ones for museums that start examining for evidence of fletching.
Fantastic video as always!
A close (ie microscopic) examination under polarised &/or UV light may reveal some interesting things WRT museums' stocks of early 'javelin' butt ends, but other than lack of budget I find it difficult to believe that this hasn't already been tried many times, even if unsystematically.. I'm not knowledgeable enough WRT forensic archaeological methods to suggest anything better, sadly :(
Great collaboration between two great specialists. About the skeleton throwing these arrows, maybe it is related to the fact that arrows often represented plague or similar diseases (as sent by God). Skeletons throwing arrows could easily represent an episode of Black Death. Anyway, it is exciting to see that there is still a lot to rediscover and understand in manuscripts and books.
I showed my godson, on an idle Sunday earlier this year how to build a - what I call - a 'French Arrow' - It's a slim bit of privot (In our case easiest way to get something straight) , sharp as one end, rudimentary fletching - a slice and a stiff leaf, tied at top with roots.
A notch is made some 3 cm down from the fletch to allow a strap / twine / string - to allow for launching. Launch 'cable' has a knot which you engage simply, but effectively doubles or triples the range of the arrow - we were casting 1-2 meter 'arrows' some 100 meters with ~5m accuracy - which given their dire weight constraints wasn't bad.
Have you heard of this ? - This is the first time I have seen a 'dart with a built in sling' mentioned - and it seems a terrific waste of material for the period.
Cheers! Love the vids!
I feel it would make more sense to have the darts on the outside of a smaller shield. I also feel like this is the kind of thing that would make more sense in an arena type setting.
I remember using the "darts inside a shield" idea about 30 years ago playing D&D or Rolemaster. It's so long ago, but I -think- I got the notion from a rulebook. In any case, definitely not something I thought up on my own.
I did envision them as lawn dart size not javelin size, concealed by the shield for a potential surprise attack.