To help with any future comments I will simply leave it like this. I know there are other ways of balancing this was simply the way I carried it out as per manual. It is not an attack on bubble balancers just an impartial demo out of interest. Thanks for watching.
I think it would be pointless to flip the tire on the bubble balancer, as it only detects imbalances across the tire from end to end (rather than side to side). I'm fairly certain this comparison experiment is faulty. It's my understanding that static balancing (the bubble) is only capable of eliminating/diminishing radial imbalances. I'm fairly certain that the machine is picking up a lateral imbalance. The reason the lateral imbalance increases when he adds the weights is obvious, he only adds them to one side. If that's correct, how could he not have realized this? He has to put the weight on both sides in order to satisfy the digital balancer.... I don't know where the readout for radial imbalance is on the digital machine. But even if it showed a radial imbalance, Gerard could have improved on the radial imbalance while still using the bubble; By adding slightly more weight and spacing that weight around the lighter side of the tire until it is, more or less, balanced.
Although well-intentioned the eccentricity was not considered out of round elliptical momentum against the center fulcrum allows the tire to be mounted in balance with a weight on the other side it does not make it round it does not make it ride smooth and after it finally settles correctly on the bead it is not balanced either Most importantly is sitting the tire correctly on the beat when it is perfectly round you'll probably find from the factory they are perfectly balanced as well
As well once it is nice and round rotating it on the rim can usually defray any necessity of weights countering against the imperfection of the wheel Basically the whole Balancing Act is just that it's a sorry-ass game to cover the laziness of installing the tire correctly the first time which may require dismounting a few times until you get it
The old NASCAR boys used bubble balanced tires to run 175 Mph, for 500 miles, and the drag racers went over 220 mph before any of them ever saw a spin balancer.
I have to tell you... I just did the tires on my car for the first time using the harbor freight tire changer, and the harbor freight bubble balancer. MY CAR HAS NEVER RIDDEN SO SMOOTH AT 80MPH AS IT DOES NOW!!! And I have always had my tires done professionally, and balanced professionally as well. I'm sure the computerized balancing machine is capable of being more accurate, but only if it is properly calibrated, and the tech operating it knows what the heck he is doing.
I couldn't agree more! I think a lot of garages don't calibrate the digital machine properly, and often don't understand how to operate it, eg:- forgetting to set wheel type, or wheel width properly.
when you do this using a dig or bubble to me the car that drives the smoothest at 70 mph on highway is the winner... this test really did not prove anything imo... just numbers on a machine that did not match the bubble balancer...
I have used a bubble balancer my entire life Mounting and balancing my own tires and saving tons of money in the process. I was taught how to use it during high school auto shop 35 years ago. There are a few tricks he might have missed. Too bad High schools do not have metal/auto shops anymore.
Trouble is were do you buy a good one you can trust....I would love one.....only ones I see for sale are the harbour freight type.....worse than useless....
There's a refinement to using a digital balancer that I've never seen anyone do. Put the weights on as it advises, then re-spin to check. So far, so standard. But then undo the clamp, rotate the wheel a quarter-turn relative to the balancer shaft, re-tighten the clamp and re-spin. You should of course get 0/0. If you don't, you know either the balancer needs attention or the wheel wasn't clamped quite true.
It probably would have been better to place the weights on the outside and inside of the wheel evenly. I have experienced a dynamic balance that was bad but the bubble balance was great.
Machine calibration has to be done on a regular basis to get an accurate balance. Computer balancers have an oscillator that has a set frequency and will not maintain that frequency till tire is balanced. Hitting weights on tires and that mud guard that gets flipped up and hits the stop messes with the oscillator. Too much of a shock.
Great video, however: bubble balancer is only capable of showing wheel's static balance ('vertical shake'). Machine used in the movie checked wheel's dynamic balance ('horizontal shimmy'). Also when doing static balancing weights should be applied ideally close to wheel centre or evenly split between outside and inside rim. I suspect the dynamic imbalance showed on the machine would have been much less by placing weights on the rim correctly using bubble balancer. But anyway it was interesting to watch. Thank you.
This point is huge, I didn't properly understand the difference between static and dynamic balance for the longest time, I don't think many people do. There is no new or old way, there is x axis y axis, each machine is testing for balance in a different axis. If old mechanic's could guess where the dynamic imbalance was and account for it by moving the wheel weights to the correct location on the static imbalance spot I would be very impressed.
I've got a cheap bubble balancer and I've never had any issues... Never had anything feel out of balance at any speeds. The only reason garages prefer digital is they're a lot quicker to use
If I ever get to 50k views on this video I am going to do a new one, I will do it whatever way you all would like to see. I am also very interested in how different it will be in results.
You should make as well a test drive to try detect any vibration. To be honest we do not know which way of balancing is correct only e test drive can clarify that (probably the digital i sok as its modern) but then you should feel some vibration if you put the "buble wheel" on the front axis. @@GerardBurkeBurkesGarage
That's not a good comparison. That's a piece of crap bubble balancer. The bubble balancer I used in the 60s and 70s weighed over a 150 lb. You could breathe on it and it would move. It took time and skill to use. We bought a Coats dynamic balancer when they first came out. It was fast and simple to use and became the mainstay. But we never used it on our motorcycles or any of the cars we drove fast and hard. To this day I don't think they're as good as an old fart with a quality bubble balancer and lots of years of experience. Or, a young guy with the incentive to learn.
A bubble balancer will work fine on narrow tires. They have more opportunity for error the wide the tires get, though you could still be lucky and have a fat tire and wheel that just happens to be in perfect balance from the start.
John my Dad would use one of the Bubble balancers when I was a Kid my Uncle had a Auto mechanic shop They Did everything in that shop Engine, Transmissions, Axles, Breaks, front end alignments , Tires . Not many shops do it all this day and age .
Several comments have questioned the accuracy of the spin balancer which is a fair point. To verify the accuracy of the balancer first balance the tire to zero, take your balancer out of round off mode if possible. Use modeling clay for small corrective weights. Spin it a few times to verify the repeatability, it should stay very close to zero. How much it varies is known as the noise floor and will give a hint to your balancer's resolution. Now attach a weight (weigh the weight on a digital scale) to the inside flange of the wheel and respin. The balancer should request an equal weight, directly opposite the weight you just attached. If the weight is not directly opposite the imbalance weight or jumps around your balancer needs servicing. If the corrective weight is in the correct location (IE directly opposite the imbalance weight) but the weight amount is off VERIFY YOUR WHEEL OFFSET AND DIAMETER DIMENSIONS. When you enter the dimensions you are telling the balancer where the corrective weight is going, it's very critical and it's not the fault of the balancer if you lie to it. Some balancers will let you adjust the dimensions and will recalculate the corrective weight as you do, others require a respin. Spend some time and get this right. Now move your imbalance weight to the outside of the rim and repeat this test only now adjust the wheel width if necessary. Once you have the outside reading correctly try different size weights to test the linearity. Finally, loosen the wheel, hold the balancer shaft and rotate the wheel 180 degrees and retighten. Repeat the test above without zeroing out the tire. The errors you see now are a combination of wheel trueness and balancer mounting errors. If you see significant errors and you know the wheel is serviceable (does not equal true) you may want to check the balancer shaft for bends, cones for dings, off-center cones, mounting technique (hub-centric vs lug-centric), etc.
How did you determine the accuracy of your new balancing machine? Or did you just trust it to be correct? The reason I ask is because of an experiece I had some years ago. I worked in the elevator trade, and we were installing door frames. The usual method of plumbing a frame was with a plumb bob on the end of braided fishing line fastened to a magnet at the top of the frame. This allowed for an accuracy of less than the thickness of the line over the full length of the frame. A common problem was that we sometimes worked inside buildings that were not as yet completely closed in. If there was any kind of breeze, it would involve going to great lengths to close off the area. I invested in an electronic level, as I assumed that would solve the problem. Yeah, right!! After rechecking with a plumb bob inside an enclosed building, I found that it was pretty much impossible to consistently get an accuracy closer than 3/16", and I had little choice but to back to the "stone age" method.
the plumbing method is not 100% accurate... the earth is rotating, so is like you drag the wire lateral, the weight remain behind... the electronic is less accurate usually, because of small chip and inside imperfections like housing molding,... and because tool is for average diy construction worker
I'm fairly certain this comparison experiment is faulty. It's my understanding that static balancing (the bubble) is only capable of eliminating/diminishing radial imbalances. I'm fairly certain that the machine is picking up a lateral imbalance. The reason the lateral imbalance increases when he adds the weights is obvious, he only adds them to one side. If that's correct, how could he not have realized this? He has to put the weight on both sides in order to satisfy the digital balancer.... I don't know where the readout for radial imbalance is on the digital machine. But even if it showed a radial imbalance, Gerard could have improved on the radial imbalance while still using the bubble; By adding slightly more weight and spacing that weight around the lighter side of the tire until it is, more or less, balanced.
Trevor Colby If you put a wheel on a dynamic balancer and it reads 30 inside 30 outside then you put 30g on one side only it wont put the other side out at all. At worst it would round to the next nearest 5g
Thank you for saving me some time. When was the last time the 2nd machine was calibrated? Put the tire on a vehicle and see if you can tell me the difference.
@@NEatopMtHyjal An electronic balancer can be set to just static balance only, and the weight usually goes on the inside of the wheel where you cant see it. Cowboy tyre fitters will tell you this is a "special" balance program for alloy wheels as you dont see weights on the face of the alloy wheel. A bubble balancer only static balances, and the weights go on the outside because you cant hang them on the inner rim due to gravity, and you would have to take the wheel off the balancer to achieve it. This would make the balance process hard to do and very time consuming, so the weights go on the outer rim.
there is a big difference between static & dynamic wheel balancing the old way would most likely cure any vibration felt in the steering, I've only ever used the bubble balancer, very old (easibal) model swear by it,
As an added note to my previous posting, I wish to explain my experience at balancing. From 1979-1995, I was the Western team leader on the Bear Championship Racing Balancing Team. Our team provided the tire/wheel balancing on the CART/PPG IndyCar World Series, of which I was a part of for 17 seasons. We worked in concert with Goodyear Racing and their engineers (Goodyear) calculated, that I "personally" had successfully balanced 80,000+ Goodyear Racing Eagles over that 17 year period. We used nothing special, the balancers we used were exactly the same balancers available to any repair facility. The only modifications done on our race balancers, involved the mounting cones used to center the wheels properly on the balancers, wheels provided by the IndyCar teams. Our balancers were digital and like the balancer above in the video, they provided both static and dynamic balance combined in the calculation. The difference from above, race balancers display in ounces, NOT grams, and they display in increments of 0.25 oz (0.25, 0.50, 0.75, 1.00, etc.) and maintained the North American standard 0.25 dead-band. (an 0.25 dead-band is if the measured imbalance is 0.24 or less, the balancer displays 0.00). For your knowledge, if a tire/wheel is out of balance, (considering the accepted standard of 27.5" outside diameter), the vibration of an out-of-balance tire/wheel cycles in 16 mph peaks. This means the vibration increases at 16, 32, 48, 64 mph, etc.. For a driver to feel an imbalance, the vehicle has to reach 60 to 65 mph to actually feel it at the steering wheel. For a severely out-of-balance tire/wheel, a driver may feel this imbalance at 48+ or - mph. Most tire/wheel balancers operate or spin at 24 mph (split between the 16 and 32 mph peaks), while more expensive balancers (and like our race balancers), spin at only 16 mph. Spectators were always surprised to see how slow our balancers turned, but we explained that if a tire/wheel was out of balance, it was out of balance no matter what, even if it was just sitting on the floor. We spun the race tires at a low speed, so any vibration would not be transmitted to the balancer sensors (piezo crystals on our balancers) and interfere with the computer calculation matrix. As long as we were within 0.25 oz at 16 mph, that tire/wheel was good at 245 mph, no problem.
It would have been interesting if you would have put the wheel back on the bubble balancer 1 more time, after the machine. Curious what it would have shown.
he didnt put the weight on wrong, you only put the weights on the front with a bubble balancer. They are put on both sides with an electronic nalancer because it balances static and dynamic balance together, where a bubble balancer only measures static balance.
@@roberttill3787 No, you are wrong. Static or dynamic those weights should have been split between the inside and outside of the rim. If not, the outside of the rim is heavier than the inside of the rim.
I would think that if you need to add 45 to make it balance (bubble) that 25 inside and 20 outside would be a good start, that way you aren't making the lateral balance worse.
I had issues with my new tires when I bought the car. It was in about 3 or 4 times where they used digital balancer, and only the last time I could not feel any vibration in the steering wheel. I have read a little about this, and I saw one place a fellow mentioned that if you use a bubble balancer you have the opportunity to put the tire on the balancer before filling air in, and then you can shake it loose and rotate the tire on the rim until you have the best result, pump it up, and that way you start with as little imbalance as possible. One said it was mandatory to put weights on both the outer and inner side at the same time. If not, you will end up with a diagonal imbalance. I see someone here mention that it is a difference between narrow and wide tires. But, I still have a question. In the 1960ties and 1970ties many tires on smaller cars were rather small, 13 inch wheels, and the smaller the wheel, the faster it has to go to give the car the same speed. And, I did not hear anyone complain about shaking steering wheels in the old days, so they must have gotten the tires balanced back then too. How come if things are so off as in this video ?
Neat video, but try the bubble balancer again with the BADA method. It's a little hard to explain in a TH-cam Comment, but you start by putting four weights on the light spot of the wheel, two to either side of the exact spot. The combined weight should be just enough to "over-correct" the balance; that is, they will make the light spot a little too heavy. Next, move the weights away from each other along the rim in pairs--keeping the distance between each weight-pair and the original light spot the same--until the bubble is balanced. Wherever the weight pairs end up, hammer one of each pair on the outside of the wheel, the other on the inside.
i purchased a new set of wheel and tires, NO balancing on them, put them on the car and i got vibrations. Took them off and put them on my Harbor Freight horizontal balancer, added the weights, put the tires back on the car and NO vibrations ...
I am watching this video because I am considering purchasing tire equipment because I am so tired of tire shops and improper balancing. From experience I can say many times set up is crucial. If you are having to add huge weights there is probability something isn’t right or need to rotate the tire 180. Most of my experience is old and in the industrial world (mostly semi tires)
Please do this again. Here is a couple of suggestions. 1) balance a tire on the bubble balancer and add weight to see what the detectable limit is. 2) after getting it right on, lift the wheel of balancer and turn the wheel 180 degrees and put it back on and see if it's the same (mark the machine hub and the wheel to know when your at 180). If it does not agree, there is something wrong with the balancer. 3)After balancing the tire on the spin machine do the same as step 2 . Again, if it does not agree there is something wrong with the machine. A good bubble balance should do a good job in "static" balance but not the dynamics. What that means is when a tire is balanced well on a good bubble balancer (regardless of whether you split the weight - as you should if that is the only balancing you do) and then put on a good spin balancer, the spin machine should show two weights needed (if it shows any correction needed at all) ,that are the same weight and their locations will be 180 deg from each other (and of course one inside and one outside.) That is the dynamic part a spin machine can't measure. Lastly, put the tire balanced on the spin machine back on the bubble balancer. A perfect spin balanced tire should show perfect on a perfect bubble balancer. Thanks for the video and please do this again :-) Even if you don't get good results it would be an important video. I tried this but I since my bubble machine was at home and I used Walmart to read the dynamic it was hard to go back and forth. My results didn't agree with the prefect situation I talked about above. I want to go back and reanalyze my bubble machine.
But the real question is, is there a noticeable difference between the 2 ways of balancing a wheel? Sure there are differences but would you notice when you're driving?
id sooner trust gravity and a bubble over some complicated man made machine. and yes i have used these machines on the job before, doesnt mean they're always perfect and correct. they require regular calibration for a reason and its never done by NASA but often times a high school dropout.
The last time i had my tires balanced the kept adding weights unil the machine said zero. I made up my mind that was the last time i would pay $25 a tire to change them out. I bought a manual tire machine off craigslist for $20 and an old bubble balancer from the 60s for $100. No problems and the fact is with todays tires i bet you could leave the weights off and it would drive fine at 55
A dynamic balancer is obviously better than a bubble balancer as it will be able to tell you how much weight to put on each side of the wheel and give you different angles on inside and outside. With a bubble balancer your best guess is to place half of the weight on the inside and the other half on the outside and both at the same angle. That said, the dynamic balancer in this test did not seem completely accurate. Lets assume that the dynamic balancer was exactly right with needed 5g on the inside and 20g on the outside. Let us also assume that the attempt to use the bubble balancer resulted in 45g placed at worst possible angle on the outside. To compensate for both the truly needed weights (5g inside, 20g outside) and the extra error added by the 45g on the outside you would need no more than 5g on the inside and 20+45 = 65g on the outside. If those 45g were placed at a better angle you would need even less. So the digital balancer has an error of at least 5g. My own experience with dynamic balancers is that if you balance a wheel perfectly and then losen the wheel from the balancer and rotate it 180 degrees the balancer next might want to add up to 15g more. This might happen also on a rather newly calibrated balancer.
Bubble level (hence vertical spin axis) can detect mass distribution difference in the radius direction, ie hinge point. Cannot detect mass distribution difference in the axis direction (ie wobble imbalance which avoids driver the most).
You need to split the added weight over both rims. Plus do it the other way around and put the balanced wheel on the bubble balancer. Last but nut least: did you null the old balancer first?
Does that digital wheel balancing machine do more varieties of wheel types like for motorcycle , car , truck ,...etc because alot of the manual bubble type and harbor freight motorcycle specific wheel balancing equipment seems to be specific. Aka you have to get different manual machines for different vehicle types. Is this the case for the dynamic machine you have or can it do all vehicles
You could get done in the laser machine and later the tire being well balanced correct place on the old style device to see if the bubble stays in the center. Probably wont but just to see how imprecise is the old style
I mounts and balance my own tires. The goal is to balance my tires so I don’t get vibrations and my tire wear out quickly. Beside putting weight on the rim to balance, I also rotate my tire around the rim to get the best balance.
Im really trying to figure out if maybe your bubble has a friction points just for the fact i been doing it 40 years and I don't have the issues your having between the two possible your needs repaired
I suspect one of the two devices are not calibrated correctly. Bubble balancers have been around for 80 years, achieving satisfactory results. If the bubble balancer you used is accurate, your placement of weights wouldn't have made it worse. I'm not being critical of you comparison, I just believe the test should be conducted on multiple devices to achieve conclusive results.
You can absolutely make dynamic balance worse while correcting static balance complete. The wheel has to be spinning for dynamic balance to show up. Though if you put your weights on one side and it gets worse in dynamic, which them to the other side should improve it somewhat.
Very interesting. I have a brand new set of road force balanced tires and brand new rims that I tested on an old snap on with fairly new bearings just to compare. The snap on is a fully manual wbk2a from the 50's or early sixties. The snap on isn't a bubble balancer but works basically the same as your modern machine but relies on gravity to settle the heaviest point of the tire to the bottom. It is telling me the new rims and tires that were road forced are ALL out about half an ounce and the weights are offset about 45 degrees to where I would have installed them. apparently gravity is different now than it was 60 or 70 years ago. How can that be?
I have definitely noticed that gravity has gotten stronger over the last 60 or so years! Objects that were an easy lift 60 years ago have grown to be very difficult to lift now. I would estimate that a 40# bag of dog food has increased about 50% in weight over that time. That said, the mechanics assumption that his whizbang machine was 100% correct flies in the face of science.
LOL. You concluded that the bubble balancer was inaccurate because the dynamic balancer said so. How do you know it's not the other way around? That's like comparing a digital ANYTHING to it's analog counterpart and automatically assuming the analog tool is bad if there's any difference between the two. Definitely a Science 101 fail. And by the way, how are digital tools calibrated? That's right, with ANALOG tools!
Probably because the dynamic balancer is backed by a warranty guaranteeing its accuracy and it's probably routinely calibrated further guaranteeing its accuracy. The other one is cheap junk made in China.
Many places don't calibrate them as often as they should though. The bubble balancer can't be wrong as long as it's level and balanced itself, it relies on the Earth's gravity. The amount of times tyre fitters have failed to balance my wheels using expensive, digital machines is ridiculous.
Look up the Coats M76 balancer manual. Too long of a discussion for here but 4 weights of equal size, 2 on the back & 2 on the front evenly spaced from the centerline of dead center of the heavy side to dead center of the light side with the weights on the light side no more than about 30* out from the line on the light side. Hundreds of balances with little issues.
With all due respect to Mr. Gerard Burke and his comparison video, his comparison was flawed. First, a technician needs to understand the difference between “static” and “dynamic” imbalance. STATIC imbalance is that which translates into vertical motion (up and down vibration as you drive), while DYNAMIC is the side to side motion due to the imbalance of one side of the tire/wheel being heavier than the other (which translates into a wobble vibration as you drive). If Mr. Burke had performed the balance correctly, on the bubble balancer, I suspect the difference would not have been very dramatic, at least as it appeared in this instance. Because Mr. Burke incorrectly applied the weights to the tire/wheel in the video, on the bubble balancer, his mistake was confirmed when he checked balanced the tire/wheel on the computerized balancer. By applying 45 grams to just one side of the tire/wheel, combined with the displayed 20 grams (outside) on the computerized balancer, after the weights were removed, is 65 grams. Please note the check balance, with the weights on, the balancer displayed 70 grams (the 5 gram variance is only because of positioning of the weight). Mr. Burke is correct in the end though, as bubble balancers were designed, and successfully used several years ago, when tires were bias-ply and when high profile ratio numbers were the norm. In today’s world, with radial tires and low profile configurations, both static and dynamic must be considered and only a modern computerized balancer can provide that.
Shouldn't you split the weight on both sides of the wheel (half on the outside, half on the inside)? I think would've resulted in a smaller difference.
1st off the 1st balance was a horizontal balance, the machine did a vertical "real simulation" balance... Does it matter either way..?? Who knows but the only way is to put the unbalanced tire on a car and drive it to see what happens.. If you feel the vibration, take them off and use the horizontal balancer and put them back on the car and see of the vibration is still there or gone ... When it comes down to it, all that matters is that when your moving at 55 or 70 mph, does it vibrate or shake ..?? Me personally I would rely on the old school method where there is NO calibration needed, just eye coordination to make sure that bubble is as centered as your eye can see it. That expensive machine requires electronics and power and must be calibrated .... The old school does not require calibration ... No different from an analog tire pressure gauge from a digital tire pressure gauge.. And when was the last time that machine was calibrated ..??
you should have put the wts on the digital balancer asked for and put the tire back on the bubble balancer this treats each balancer with the same respect
You did not used corectly the static balancer. when u use that, you need to use at least 4 weight ( smaler ) first level the bouble a triangle shape ( heavy side 1 point of the triangle the 2 balance weight opening from the light side is the secund an the third point of the triangle ) soo once the bouble lined up u should instal the 2 weight on the inner side, then back to the balancer repeat the process and the remaining 2 weight goes to the outer side of the rim ( position will be close to the inner ones ) then you are should be done. Still will be less acurate then the fancy balancer but if u do it right should be good enough to the average users. i hope you will make a video with this method and prove that Im wrong :)
Can't do 1 test and claim a conclusive outcome it has to be consistent and repeatable. Need to have an accurate baseline also. Is the machine accurate, has the tire been verified on another machine?
Just got my car back from mounting and balancing new tires with wheel alignment. Car has shimmy starting at about 73mph, and it get stupid bad at 90. So bad I won't risk going higher. This shimmy has gotten worse over the last couple of days, which makes me wonder why tires settling in isn't taken into account. Also, why are tires spun and measured at high speeds during balancing?
@JPS JPS On the car balancing does not balance the wheel it balances the wheel, tyre, the wheel hub, the brake disc, and if its a drive exle it also balances the driveshaft. All three types of balancing syatem work relative to the use you are putting them to.
I believe you said if it hit 50,000 views, you would redo the test. I have no dog in this fight, but I would certainly be interested in seeing a more even-handed comparison. I have been on this earth long prior to digital balancers to know that tires were well-balanced and going very fast down the road.
if you a car fan that wants to fix your car yourself bubble should do but apart from that digital for ones that not care to keep there car up and running (as in you get someone else to fix your car not on about if it still runs great or not)
Take it from a tire balancing expert from the 60s and 70s. First you never put weight on one side of the tire. You need to use 4 weights and split the difference between the 2 pairs of weights putting 2 on each side of the tire.
With the Bubble, spleeting the weight of 45 grams in two is necessary = 22.5 outside and 22.5 inside at the same place but inside. I thing the prove is there. The machine show 10 and 70....It's a ratio of 7...… with the bubble method. With the machine, it's 5 and 20 = a ratio of 4..... 7 is very near then the ratio divided by two. 4 is near then 8 isn't-it ????? .... Ratio need to be divided by two… Because the 45 grams need to go inside and outside... ---- Do you got the point ?????
When you buy new tyres and rims there will be coloured dots on them. The tyre may have a yellow dot or a red and yellow dot. If there is a red dot it should be lined up with the valve this in some cases eliminates any need for weights.
I'm not going to ask about putting weights on both sides since it was already asked. But What if the unbalance was in the tire itself? I think a follow up with just doing a wheel alone (And maybe a small ding in it if necessary) and try again.
i use the old balancer to find the heavy spots on tie and rims :D then you can match them up during mounting, will use less weights during actual computer balancing :D
I'd try it on the road and see if there is. Vibration when you drive at Hi-Way speeds .... A lot of tire shops have kids that don't know how to use half those tools and as well with the bubble balance system you should do a "Y" balance the heavy area at the bottom of the Y and you put the weights at the top of the "Y" that is the proper way to do a bubble balance...
We saw the bubble looked calibrated, but digital one could be way off, how would we know? I know gravity doesn't lie, but a bad calibration out of the factory, and shipping on sensative equiptment is common.
I've used an old Micro Balancer that is very sensitive and have always had excellent results mostly because I'm a fussy bastard when using it. The problem is it won't work on some aluminum alloy wheels because the hole in the center is too small to fit over that really excellent oversized vile. Guess I'll have to pick up one of these cheaper units with that tiny little vile.
People posting comments here do not understand the dynamics of wheel balancers or how they work, including Gerard Burke. A static, bubble balancer only checks for static imbalance because its, well, static. An electronic balancer measures static balance and because it turns the wheel it also checks dynamic balance, because its, well, rotating (moving). If you consider the static balance was 45 grams, and the electronic one was 20+10 grams which equals 30 grams. This makes a difference of 15 Grams, and if balancing is 10 grams or less it will not be felt on the steering. As the dynamic electronic machine is set to round up to the nearest 5 grams it could conceivably only be a 13 gram difference. Knock the 10 grammes leeway out and that leaves a potential difference of only 2 Grams ! Hardly worth worrying about.
I saw you put the weight on the outer face of the tire. I have seen videos where they put the weight on the inner side only and not the outside. I have also seen other videos where they said to divide the weight needed and put 1/2 on the inside and 1/2 on the outside. Might this have something to do with how the machine interprets it. There is also the question as to whether or not these finding have to do with side to side balancing and not rotational balancing. I have heard people talk about this as being not as crucial, however is that part of what the machine is finding. How do we know if these readings you got after the bubble on the computer will affect the actual forces on the tire when we are driving. Did you try to drive the tire after the bubble balancing so see how the bubble balance worked when the tire was in use? That bubble balancer also looks old and could be worn which also happens to be a different design than others I have seen. Others have used a new balancer like the harbor freight. Maybe that does a more accurate job if your bubble balancer has some issue. I think your findings may bring about these questions and are not giving an accurate comparison between the bubble and computer. Maybe you also run a shop and are just trying to push more business your way rather than people trying to balance a tire themselves. You would have financial gains. We could not see where the bubble was that clearly in the video. The balancing pivot point or the seat in the bubble unit could also have pits or gouges in it which would affect its accuracy.
The best wheel balancer I have seen was years ago in a small town shop. This unit balanced the wheel as it was on the auto. It spun the wheel very fast and had another unit mounted to the wheel itself. When done it showed how much weight and where.
That balances the wheel and brake assembly together, so if the tire is installed on another axle, it may not be in perfect balance. If the wheel was a drive wheel, the machine would also spin the drive axle at high speed, which may not be good for the differential.
What have we learned? A couple things: Never put weights on only one side static balancing. Split weights or put 'stick-on weights' to the center inside of the rim when static balancing. Never had a problem with vibration or tread wear and no suspension issues. Dynamic wheel balancer equipment needs constant calibrating which is overlooked by many garages due to volume and almighty $$$. Equipment is prone to environmental temp issues, voltage/amperage fluctuations, component and dirty grounding issues etc. Saw one garage had constant EMF issues, and they were near HV power lines and caused variations and inconsistencies in their mains panel. Would I have dynamic balancing if I owned a garage, absolutely, but I would ensure the equipment is installed and maintained correctly, and my employees would be well trained, and have the integrity to ensure cals on a consistent schedule.
The bubble balancing should have been done splitting the weight between the inside and outside. Our digital balancer has a choice between static and dynamic balance. Had you been able to select static balance on your digital, it may have been closer. If you were to do a perfect static balance on a digital machine, then run it on dynamic it would also be way off. I have used both, no doubt the digital machine is better, however, when used properly, a bubble balancer can do a pretty darn good job. The true proof is driving down the road. If the car rides smooth with no shake, you have done an adequate job. Bubble balancer is cheap, any DIYer can have one, and they do not take up much room in a shop.
Thank you that's exactly what I wanted to see you're a bro car tire shop too kind of got out of control I got quote at like 6 different places when I got home I couldn't understand the plug is purposely making the paperwork the cars Tire salesman in push me too far now I'm going to do it myself I don't I don't mind paying extra charges I just want to know what the hell is going on and I don't want perfect paperwork that's purposely deceptive
this would be the correct way to do it. of course when you put all the weight on one side it will show it is off on the machine but will likely perform well on the road. also machine calibrations can be off. i have seen tires come out of the shop that were spin balanced and they created a shimmy on the vehicle at speeds.
My question is how do you know the digital balancer is calibrated correctly? As it’s been said already. My hind end tells me a mechanical device that uses water air and gravity is more consistent than math computation at the speed of light. We have no way of knowing the machine is accurate. Keep retrying the new machine blije loosen the nut, and spin the tire a little and retest. I don’t know. I have seen them through me different numbers every time doing but that way . 🤷♂️
I use electronic wheel balancer works awesome. Static balance all aluminum wheels on it one weight per wheel. Does Not matter what speed you drive your car there will be no shake. The one problem with electronic wheel bouncers is when you lose Hydro you have to re-calibrate it and I would bet 90% of people never recalibrated from the time they buy it till they take it to the junk. Hence poorly balanced wheels
You should have put it back on the bubble balancer to check. Level bubbles do not lie. And we dont know if the machine is even calibrated or if the settings are correct.
i felt like the point of the video was to shame the bubble method which has worked for many years before the spin machines came to be. i am old school and will trust the simplified method over any computer device, especially when the old way gives you a smooth ride free of shimmy or vibration on the road. that is what you get with a bubble method if you do it correctly. after all isn't that why we balance balance tires in the first place?
To help with any future comments I will simply leave it like this. I know there are other ways of balancing this was simply the way I carried it out as per manual. It is not an attack on bubble balancers just an impartial demo out of interest.
Thanks for watching.
I think it would be pointless to flip the tire on the bubble balancer, as it only detects imbalances across the tire from end to end (rather than side to side).
I'm fairly certain this comparison experiment is faulty. It's my understanding that static balancing (the bubble) is only capable of eliminating/diminishing radial imbalances. I'm fairly certain that the machine is picking up a lateral imbalance. The reason the lateral imbalance increases when he adds the weights is obvious, he only adds them to one side. If that's correct, how could he not have realized this? He has to put the weight on both sides in order to satisfy the digital balancer....
I don't know where the readout for radial imbalance is on the digital machine. But even if it showed a radial imbalance, Gerard could have improved on the radial imbalance while still using the bubble; By adding slightly more weight and spacing that weight around the lighter side of the tire until it is, more or less, balanced.
If you would read the comments, you will learn what you did wrong.
Although well-intentioned the eccentricity was not considered out of round elliptical momentum against the center fulcrum allows the tire to be mounted in balance with a weight on the other side it does not make it round it does not make it ride smooth and after it finally settles correctly on the bead it is not balanced either
Most importantly is sitting the tire correctly on the beat when it is perfectly round you'll probably find from the factory they are perfectly balanced as well
As well once it is nice and round rotating it on the rim can usually defray any necessity of weights countering against the imperfection of the wheel
Basically the whole Balancing Act is just that it's a sorry-ass game to cover the laziness of installing the tire correctly the first time which may require dismounting a few times until you get it
The old NASCAR boys used bubble balanced tires to run 175 Mph, for 500 miles, and the drag racers went over 220 mph before any of them ever saw a spin balancer.
I have to tell you... I just did the tires on my car for the first time using the harbor freight tire changer, and the harbor freight bubble balancer. MY CAR HAS NEVER RIDDEN SO SMOOTH AT 80MPH AS IT DOES NOW!!! And I have always had my tires done professionally, and balanced professionally as well. I'm sure the computerized balancing machine is capable of being more accurate, but only if it is properly calibrated, and the tech operating it knows what the heck he is doing.
Yup.
I couldn't agree more! I think a lot of garages don't calibrate the digital machine properly, and often don't understand how to operate it, eg:- forgetting to set wheel type, or wheel width properly.
Great point
when you do this using a dig or bubble to me the car that drives the smoothest at 70 mph on highway is the winner... this test really did not prove anything imo... just numbers on a machine that did not match the bubble balancer...
That's because most people don't know how to use a spin balance machine.
I have used a bubble balancer my entire life Mounting and balancing my own tires and saving tons of money in the process. I was taught how to use it during high school auto shop 35 years ago. There are a few tricks he might have missed. Too bad High schools do not have metal/auto shops anymore.
they most assuredly do lmfao
Trouble is were do you buy a good one you can trust....I would love one.....only ones I see for sale are the harbour freight type.....worse than useless....
There's a refinement to using a digital balancer that I've never seen anyone do. Put the weights on as it advises, then re-spin to check. So far, so standard. But then undo the clamp, rotate the wheel a quarter-turn relative to the balancer shaft, re-tighten the clamp and re-spin. You should of course get 0/0. If you don't, you know either the balancer needs attention or the wheel wasn't clamped quite true.
It probably would have been better to place the weights on the outside and inside of the wheel evenly. I have experienced a dynamic balance that was bad but the bubble balance was great.
Machine calibration has to be done on a regular basis to get an accurate balance. Computer balancers have an oscillator that has a set frequency and will not maintain that frequency till tire is balanced. Hitting weights on tires and that mud guard that gets flipped up and hits the stop messes with the oscillator. Too much of a shock.
Great video, however: bubble balancer is only capable of showing wheel's static balance ('vertical shake'). Machine used in the movie checked wheel's dynamic balance ('horizontal shimmy'). Also when doing static balancing weights should be applied ideally close to wheel centre or evenly split between outside and inside rim. I suspect the dynamic imbalance showed on the machine would have been much less by placing weights on the rim correctly using bubble balancer. But anyway it was interesting to watch. Thank you.
This point is huge, I didn't properly understand the difference between static and dynamic balance for the longest time, I don't think many people do. There is no new or old way, there is x axis y axis, each machine is testing for balance in a different axis. If old mechanic's could guess where the dynamic imbalance was and account for it by moving the wheel weights to the correct location on the static imbalance spot I would be very impressed.
I use the y formation when applying the weights I find the stick on one's best 👌
I've got a cheap bubble balancer and I've never had any issues... Never had anything feel out of balance at any speeds. The only reason garages prefer digital is they're a lot quicker to use
Agree - they were setting land speed records using cars with tires balanced on bubble balancers long before digital ones...
Way to go Sonley!! I agree 100%👍 That's telling them.
@@jerryz2541 yes, in 1886 they set the record at 10 mph...without any digital balancing...crazy huh?
@@kdgdirk Yeah and when bluebird set the record what was used to balance the wheels.?. Digital wasn`t available then.
@@coopercruse5867 and Bluebird certainly wasnt doing 10 MPH!
Put it on the bubble balancer after you balanced it on the spin balancer lets see
If I ever get to 50k views on this video I am going to do a new one, I will do it whatever way you all would like to see. I am also very interested in how different it will be in results.
You should make as well a test drive to try detect any vibration. To be honest we do not know which way of balancing is correct only e test drive can clarify that (probably the digital i sok as its modern) but then you should feel some vibration if you put the "buble wheel" on the front axis. @@GerardBurkeBurkesGarage
@@GerardBurkeBurkesGarage it's passed 50k views!
55k views now.
@@GerardBurkeBurkesGarage you're a man of your words aren't you? go make that video...😊
That's not a good comparison. That's a piece of crap bubble balancer. The bubble balancer I used in the 60s and 70s weighed over a 150 lb. You could breathe on it and it would move. It took time and skill to use. We bought a Coats dynamic balancer when they first came out. It was fast and simple to use and became the mainstay. But we never used it on our motorcycles or any of the cars we drove fast and hard. To this day I don't think they're as good as an old fart with a quality bubble balancer and lots of years of experience. Or, a young guy with the incentive to learn.
A bubble balancer will work fine on narrow tires. They have more opportunity for error the wide the tires get, though you could still be lucky and have a fat tire and wheel that just happens to be in perfect balance from the start.
John my Dad would use one of the Bubble balancers when I was a Kid my Uncle had a Auto mechanic shop They Did everything in that shop Engine, Transmissions, Axles, Breaks, front end alignments , Tires . Not many shops do it all this day and age .
I feel like being able to tell which side needs weight is better especially if you are going real fast
Several comments have questioned the accuracy of the spin balancer which is a fair point. To verify the accuracy of the balancer first balance the tire to zero, take your balancer out of round off mode if possible. Use modeling clay for small corrective weights. Spin it a few times to verify the repeatability, it should stay very close to zero. How much it varies is known as the noise floor and will give a hint to your balancer's resolution. Now attach a weight (weigh the weight on a digital scale) to the inside flange of the wheel and respin. The balancer should request an equal weight, directly opposite the weight you just attached. If the weight is not directly opposite the imbalance weight or jumps around your balancer needs servicing. If the corrective weight is in the correct location (IE directly opposite the imbalance weight) but the weight amount is off VERIFY YOUR WHEEL OFFSET AND DIAMETER DIMENSIONS. When you enter the dimensions you are telling the balancer where the corrective weight is going, it's very critical and it's not the fault of the balancer if you lie to it. Some balancers will let you adjust the dimensions and will recalculate the corrective weight as you do, others require a respin. Spend some time and get this right. Now move your imbalance weight to the outside of the rim and repeat this test only now adjust the wheel width if necessary. Once you have the outside reading correctly try different size weights to test the linearity. Finally, loosen the wheel, hold the balancer shaft and rotate the wheel 180 degrees and retighten. Repeat the test above without zeroing out the tire. The errors you see now are a combination of wheel trueness and balancer mounting errors. If you see significant errors and you know the wheel is serviceable (does not equal true) you may want to check the balancer shaft for bends, cones for dings, off-center cones, mounting technique (hub-centric vs lug-centric), etc.
You should have set the digital balancer up for a static balance for a fair comparison. And lern how to use the bubble balancer
How did you determine the accuracy of your new balancing machine? Or did you just trust it to be correct?
The reason I ask is because of an experiece I had some years ago. I worked in the elevator trade, and we were installing door frames. The usual method of plumbing a frame was with a plumb bob on the end of braided fishing line fastened to a magnet at the top of the frame. This allowed for an accuracy of less than the thickness of the line over the full length of the frame.
A common problem was that we sometimes worked inside buildings that were not as yet completely closed in. If there was any kind of breeze, it would involve going to great lengths to close off the area.
I invested in an electronic level, as I assumed that would solve the problem. Yeah, right!! After rechecking with a plumb bob inside an enclosed building, I found that it was pretty much impossible to consistently get an accuracy closer than 3/16", and I had little choice but to back to the "stone age" method.
the plumbing method is not 100% accurate... the earth is rotating, so is like you drag the wire lateral, the weight remain behind... the electronic is less accurate usually, because of small chip and inside imperfections like housing molding,... and because tool is for average diy construction worker
Aren't you assuming that the dynamic balancer is correct..? Because why?
Just because a machine is digital, doesn't mean that it's accurate.
I'm fairly certain this comparison experiment is faulty. It's my understanding that static balancing (the bubble) is only capable of eliminating/diminishing radial imbalances. I'm fairly certain that the machine is picking up a lateral imbalance. The reason the lateral imbalance increases when he adds the weights is obvious, he only adds them to one side. If that's correct, how could he not have realized this? He has to put the weight on both sides in order to satisfy the digital balancer....
I don't know where the readout for radial imbalance is on the digital machine. But even if it showed a radial imbalance, Gerard could have improved on the radial imbalance while still using the bubble; By adding slightly more weight and spacing that weight around the lighter side of the tire until it is, more or less, balanced.
Any good shop will calibrate the dynamic balancer every month so they know it's pretty true.
Trevor Colby If you put a wheel on a dynamic balancer and it reads 30 inside 30 outside then you put 30g on one side only it wont put the other side out at all. At worst it would round to the next nearest 5g
Thank you for saving me some time. When was the last time the 2nd machine was calibrated? Put the tire on a vehicle and see if you can tell me the difference.
@@NEatopMtHyjal An electronic balancer can be set to just static balance only, and the weight usually goes on the inside of the wheel where you cant see it. Cowboy tyre fitters will tell you this is a "special" balance program for alloy wheels as you dont see weights on the face of the alloy wheel. A bubble balancer only static balances, and the weights go on the outside because you cant hang them on the inner rim due to gravity, and you would have to take the wheel off the balancer to achieve it. This would make the balance process hard to do and very time consuming, so the weights go on the outer rim.
there is a big difference between static & dynamic wheel balancing the old way would most likely cure any vibration felt in the steering, I've only ever used the bubble balancer, very old (easibal) model swear by it,
As an added note to my previous posting, I wish to explain my experience at balancing. From 1979-1995, I was the Western team leader on the Bear Championship Racing Balancing Team. Our team provided the tire/wheel balancing on the CART/PPG IndyCar World Series, of which I was a part of for 17 seasons. We worked in concert with Goodyear Racing and their engineers (Goodyear) calculated, that I "personally" had successfully balanced 80,000+ Goodyear Racing Eagles over that 17 year period. We used nothing special, the balancers we used were exactly the same balancers available to any repair facility. The only modifications done on our race balancers, involved the mounting cones used to center the wheels properly on the balancers, wheels provided by the IndyCar teams. Our balancers were digital and like the balancer above in the video, they provided both static and dynamic balance combined in the calculation. The difference from above, race balancers display in ounces, NOT grams, and they display in increments of 0.25 oz (0.25, 0.50, 0.75, 1.00, etc.) and maintained the North American standard 0.25 dead-band. (an 0.25 dead-band is if the measured imbalance is 0.24 or less, the balancer displays 0.00). For your knowledge, if a tire/wheel is out of balance, (considering the accepted standard of 27.5" outside diameter), the vibration of an out-of-balance tire/wheel cycles in 16 mph peaks. This means the vibration increases at 16, 32, 48, 64 mph, etc.. For a driver to feel an imbalance, the vehicle has to reach 60 to 65 mph to actually feel it at the steering wheel. For a severely out-of-balance tire/wheel, a driver may feel this imbalance at 48+ or - mph. Most tire/wheel balancers operate or spin at 24 mph (split between the 16 and 32 mph peaks), while more expensive balancers (and like our race balancers), spin at only 16 mph. Spectators were always surprised to see how slow our balancers turned, but we explained that if a tire/wheel was out of balance, it was out of balance no matter what, even if it was just sitting on the floor. We spun the race tires at a low speed, so any vibration would not be transmitted to the balancer sensors (piezo crystals on our balancers) and interfere with the computer calculation matrix. As long as we were within 0.25 oz at 16 mph, that tire/wheel was good at 245 mph, no problem.
nice info, wish you'd said you used a bubble balancer OLE'!
It would have been interesting if you would have put the wheel back on the bubble balancer 1 more time, after the machine. Curious what it would have shown.
Your comparing to different styles of balancing dynamic (both sides of the rim) vs static (one sids) set your spin balance to static and what happens
You didn't split the weight evenly between the front and back. Of course it's out. You put the weight on wrong.
he didnt put the weight on wrong, you only put the weights on the front with a bubble balancer. They are put on both sides with an electronic nalancer because it balances static and dynamic balance together, where a bubble balancer only measures static balance.
@@roberttill3787 No, you are wrong. Static or dynamic those weights should have been split between the inside and outside of the rim. If not, the outside of the rim is heavier than the inside of the rim.
It was never in the middle from the start . IF you can't get it right from the start , don't teach .
I would think that if you need to add 45 to make it balance (bubble) that 25 inside and 20 outside would be a good start, that way you aren't making the lateral balance worse.
I had issues with my new tires when I bought the car. It was in about 3 or 4 times where they used digital balancer, and only the last time I could not feel any vibration in the steering wheel. I have read a little about this, and I saw one place a fellow mentioned that if you use a bubble balancer you have the opportunity to put the tire on the balancer before filling air in, and then you can shake it loose and rotate the tire on the rim until you have the best result, pump it up, and that way you start with as little imbalance as possible. One said it was mandatory to put weights on both the outer and inner side at the same time. If not, you will end up with a diagonal imbalance. I see someone here mention that it is a difference between narrow and wide tires. But, I still have a question. In the 1960ties and 1970ties many tires on smaller cars were rather small, 13 inch wheels, and the smaller the wheel, the faster it has to go to give the car the same speed. And, I did not hear anyone complain about shaking steering wheels in the old days, so they must have gotten the tires balanced back then too. How come if things are so off as in this video ?
Aligning the red dot on the tyre with the valve stem on the rim is a good start.
Neat video, but try the bubble balancer again with the BADA method. It's a little hard to explain in a TH-cam Comment, but you start by putting four weights on the light spot of the wheel, two to either side of the exact spot. The combined weight should be just enough to "over-correct" the balance; that is, they will make the light spot a little too heavy. Next, move the weights away from each other along the rim in pairs--keeping the distance between each weight-pair and the original light spot the same--until the bubble is balanced. Wherever the weight pairs end up, hammer one of each pair on the outside of the wheel, the other on the inside.
i purchased a new set of wheel and tires, NO balancing on them, put them on the car and i got vibrations. Took them off and put them on my Harbor Freight horizontal balancer, added the weights, put the tires back on the car and NO vibrations ...
I am watching this video because I am considering purchasing tire equipment because I am so tired of tire shops and improper balancing. From experience I can say many times set up is crucial. If you are having to add huge weights there is probability something isn’t right or need to rotate the tire 180. Most of my experience is old and in the industrial world (mostly semi tires)
Bubbles don’t lie
Yup. And they don't get software glitches either. Microsoft comes to mind....
Please do this again. Here is a couple of suggestions. 1) balance a tire on the bubble balancer and add weight to see what the detectable limit is. 2) after getting it right on, lift the wheel of balancer and turn the wheel 180 degrees and put it back on and see if it's the same (mark the machine hub and the wheel to know when your at 180). If it does not agree, there is something wrong with the balancer. 3)After balancing the tire on the spin machine do the same as step 2 . Again, if it does not agree there is something wrong with the machine. A good bubble balance should do a good job in "static" balance but not the dynamics. What that means is when a tire is balanced well on a good bubble balancer (regardless of whether you split the weight - as you should if that is the only balancing you do) and then put on a good spin balancer, the spin machine should show two weights needed (if it shows any correction needed at all) ,that are the same weight and their locations will be 180 deg from each other (and of course one inside and one outside.) That is the dynamic part a spin machine can't measure. Lastly, put the tire balanced on the spin machine back on the bubble balancer. A perfect spin balanced tire should show perfect on a perfect bubble balancer. Thanks for the video and please do this again :-) Even if you don't get good results it would be an important video. I tried this but I since my bubble machine was at home and I used Walmart to read the dynamic it was hard to go back and forth. My results didn't agree with the prefect situation I talked about above. I want to go back and reanalyze my bubble machine.
don't mess with old school,,,i used bubbles back in the day and never had come backs ,,,,cheers
But the real question is, is there a noticeable difference between the 2 ways of balancing a wheel? Sure there are differences but would you notice when you're driving?
id sooner trust gravity and a bubble over some complicated man made machine. and yes i have used these machines on the job before, doesnt mean they're always perfect and correct. they require regular calibration for a reason and its never done by NASA but often times a high school dropout.
The last time i had my tires balanced the kept adding weights unil the machine said zero. I made up my mind that was the last time i would pay $25 a tire to change them out. I bought a manual tire machine off craigslist for $20 and an old bubble balancer from the 60s for $100. No problems and the fact is with todays tires i bet you could leave the weights off and it would drive fine at 55
A dynamic balancer is obviously better than a bubble balancer as it will be able to tell you how much weight to put on each side of the wheel and give you different angles on inside and outside. With a bubble balancer your best guess is to place half of the weight on the inside and the other half on the outside and both at the same angle. That said, the dynamic balancer in this test did not seem completely accurate. Lets assume that the dynamic balancer was exactly right with needed 5g on the inside and 20g on the outside. Let us also assume that the attempt to use the bubble balancer resulted in 45g placed at worst possible angle on the outside. To compensate for both the truly needed weights (5g inside, 20g outside) and the extra error added by the 45g on the outside you would need no more than 5g on the inside and 20+45 = 65g on the outside. If those 45g were placed at a better angle you would need even less. So the digital balancer has an error of at least 5g. My own experience with dynamic balancers is that if you balance a wheel perfectly and then losen the wheel from the balancer and rotate it 180 degrees the balancer next might want to add up to 15g more. This might happen also on a rather newly calibrated balancer.
So what if the wheel spins way faster at high speed 80 -100 mph? Will balancing at low speed fix issues at high speed vibrations ?
How do you know....the electronic machine is accurate though??????
Clip on wheel weight go inside and outside the rim?
Bubble level (hence vertical spin axis) can detect mass distribution difference in the radius direction, ie hinge point. Cannot detect mass distribution difference in the axis direction (ie wobble imbalance which avoids driver the most).
You need to split the added weight over both rims. Plus do it the other way around and put the balanced wheel on the bubble balancer. Last but nut least: did you null the old balancer first?
Does that digital wheel balancing machine do more varieties of wheel types like for motorcycle , car , truck ,...etc because alot of the manual bubble type and harbor freight motorcycle specific wheel balancing equipment seems to be specific. Aka you have to get different manual machines for different vehicle types. Is this the case for the dynamic machine you have or can it do all vehicles
You could get done in the laser machine and later the tire being well balanced correct place on the old style device to see if the bubble stays in the center. Probably wont but just to see how imprecise is the old style
I mounts and balance my own tires. The goal is to balance my tires so I don’t get vibrations and my tire wear out quickly. Beside putting weight on the rim to balance, I also rotate my tire around the rim to get the best balance.
Im really trying to figure out if maybe your bubble has a friction points just for the fact i been doing it 40 years and I don't have the issues your having between the two possible your needs repaired
I suspect one of the two devices are not calibrated correctly. Bubble balancers have been around for 80 years, achieving satisfactory results. If the bubble balancer you used is accurate, your placement of weights wouldn't have made it worse. I'm not being critical of you comparison, I just believe the test should be conducted on multiple devices to achieve conclusive results.
+1 : This (Gary M.) guy knows how to science.
You can absolutely make dynamic balance worse while correcting static balance complete. The wheel has to be spinning for dynamic balance to show up. Though if you put your weights on one side and it gets worse in dynamic, which them to the other side should improve it somewhat.
I'm curious how the new wheel balancer would interpret a wheel, that has 5oz of beads within the tire?
Very interesting. I have a brand new set of road force balanced tires and brand new rims that I tested on an old snap on with fairly new bearings just to compare. The snap on is a fully manual wbk2a from the 50's or early sixties. The snap on isn't a bubble balancer but works basically the same as your modern machine but relies on gravity to settle the heaviest point of the tire to the bottom. It is telling me the new rims and tires that were road forced are ALL out about half an ounce and the weights are offset about 45 degrees to where I would have installed them. apparently gravity is different now than it was 60 or 70 years ago. How can that be?
I have definitely noticed that gravity has gotten stronger over the last 60 or so years! Objects that were an easy lift 60 years ago have grown to be very difficult to lift now. I would estimate that a 40# bag of dog food has increased about 50% in weight over that time. That said, the mechanics assumption that his whizbang machine was 100% correct flies in the face of science.
LOL. You concluded that the bubble balancer was inaccurate because the dynamic balancer said so. How do you know it's not the other way around? That's like comparing a digital ANYTHING to it's analog counterpart and automatically assuming the analog tool is bad if there's any difference between the two. Definitely a Science 101 fail.
And by the way, how are digital tools calibrated? That's right, with ANALOG tools!
Jake Jones thanks for this comment so I didn’t have to
My thoughts exactly.
Probably because the dynamic balancer is backed by a warranty guaranteeing its accuracy and it's probably routinely calibrated further guaranteeing its accuracy. The other one is cheap junk made in China.
Many places don't calibrate them as often as they should though. The bubble balancer can't be wrong as long as it's level and balanced itself, it relies on the Earth's gravity.
The amount of times tyre fitters have failed to balance my wheels using expensive, digital machines is ridiculous.
Look up the Coats M76 balancer manual. Too long of a discussion for here but 4 weights of equal size, 2 on the back & 2 on the front evenly spaced from the centerline of dead center of the heavy side to dead center of the light side with the weights on the light side no more than about 30* out from the line on the light side.
Hundreds of balances with little issues.
With all due respect to Mr. Gerard Burke and his comparison video, his comparison was flawed. First, a technician needs to understand the difference between “static” and “dynamic” imbalance. STATIC imbalance is that which translates into vertical motion (up and down vibration as you drive), while DYNAMIC is the side to side motion due to the imbalance of one side of the tire/wheel being heavier than the other (which translates into a wobble vibration as you drive). If Mr. Burke had performed the balance correctly, on the bubble balancer, I suspect the difference would not have been very dramatic, at least as it appeared in this instance. Because Mr. Burke incorrectly applied the weights to the tire/wheel in the video, on the bubble balancer, his mistake was confirmed when he checked balanced the tire/wheel on the computerized balancer. By applying 45 grams to just one side of the tire/wheel, combined with the displayed 20 grams (outside) on the computerized balancer, after the weights were removed, is 65 grams. Please note the check balance, with the weights on, the balancer displayed 70 grams (the 5 gram variance is only because of positioning of the weight). Mr. Burke is correct in the end though, as bubble balancers were designed, and successfully used several years ago, when tires were bias-ply and when high profile ratio numbers were the norm. In today’s world, with radial tires and low profile configurations, both static and dynamic must be considered and only a modern computerized balancer can provide that.
The spin balancer always wins, since you use it as the benchmark :)
Haha smart comment. If the machine is used as the benchmark it will never lose 😂
Shouldn't you split the weight on both sides of the wheel (half on the outside, half on the inside)? I think would've resulted in a smaller difference.
Yes they should.
very good demonstration, thanks
1st off the 1st balance was a horizontal balance, the machine did a vertical "real simulation" balance... Does it matter either way..?? Who knows but the only way is to put the unbalanced tire on a car and drive it to see what happens.. If you feel the vibration, take them off and use the horizontal balancer and put them back on the car and see of the vibration is still there or gone ...
When it comes down to it, all that matters is that when your moving at 55 or 70 mph, does it vibrate or shake ..??
Me personally I would rely on the old school method where there is NO calibration needed, just eye coordination to make sure that bubble is as centered as your eye can see it. That expensive machine requires electronics and power and must be calibrated .... The old school does not require calibration ... No different from an analog tire pressure gauge from a digital tire pressure gauge..
And when was the last time that machine was calibrated ..??
How do you know the digital machine measures right?
you should have put the wts on the digital balancer asked for and put the tire back on the bubble balancer this treats each balancer with the same respect
Can you explain the principle of how new wheel balancer work?
Which able to detect amount of weight needed for inside vs outside?
Enjoy the info but do they turn the tire to do Rim anymore instead of adding so much weight??
You did not used corectly the static balancer. when u use that, you need to use at least 4 weight ( smaler ) first level the bouble a triangle shape ( heavy side 1 point of the triangle the 2 balance weight opening from the light side is the secund an the third point of the triangle ) soo once the bouble lined up u should instal the 2 weight on the inner side, then back to the balancer repeat the process and the remaining 2 weight goes to the outer side of the rim ( position will be close to the inner ones ) then you are should be done.
Still will be less acurate then the fancy balancer but if u do it right should be good enough to the average users.
i hope you will make a video with this method and prove that Im wrong :)
Exactly
You should have ran it a second time on the digital machine, just to check if you get the same reading.
Can't do 1 test and claim a conclusive outcome it has to be consistent and repeatable. Need to have an accurate baseline also. Is the machine accurate, has the tire been verified on another machine?
Just got my car back from mounting and balancing new tires with wheel alignment. Car has shimmy starting at about 73mph, and it get stupid bad at 90. So bad I won't risk going higher. This shimmy has gotten worse over the last couple of days, which makes me wonder why tires settling in isn't taken into account. Also, why are tires spun and measured at high speeds during balancing?
Can't do a comparison when you don't know how to do it at all
@JPS JPS On the car balancing does not balance the wheel it balances the wheel, tyre, the wheel hub, the brake disc, and if its a drive exle it also balances the driveshaft. All three types of balancing syatem work relative to the use you are putting them to.
I believe you said if it hit 50,000 views, you would redo the test. I have no dog in this fight, but I would certainly be interested in seeing a more even-handed comparison. I have been on this earth long prior to digital balancers to know that tires were well-balanced and going very fast down the road.
Are you going to redo this video?
My mechanic did my tires bu hand. He said you dont need to balance them. He was right.
Yeah I’m just gonna use a bubble balancer. Mostly because it’s cheaper but also because I’m poor.
if you a car fan that wants to fix your car yourself bubble should do but apart from that digital for ones that not care to keep there car up and running (as in you get someone else to fix your car not on about if it still runs great or not)
Take it from a tire balancing expert from the 60s and 70s. First you never put weight on one side of the tire. You need to use 4 weights and split the difference between the 2 pairs of weights putting 2 on each side of the tire.
Most newer wheels don't have the lip on the outside anymore, so the inside is the only place.
With the Bubble, spleeting the weight of 45 grams in two is necessary = 22.5 outside and 22.5 inside at the same place but inside. I thing the prove is there. The machine show 10 and 70....It's a ratio of 7...… with the bubble method. With the machine, it's 5 and 20 = a ratio of 4..... 7 is very near then the ratio divided by two. 4 is near then 8 isn't-it ????? .... Ratio need to be divided by two… Because the 45 grams need to go inside and outside... ---- Do you got the point ?????
When you buy new tyres and rims there will be coloured dots on them. The tyre may have a yellow dot or a red and yellow dot. If there is a red dot it should be lined up with the valve this in some cases eliminates any need for weights.
I'm not going to ask about putting weights on both sides since it was already asked. But What if the unbalance was in the tire itself? I think a follow up with just doing a wheel alone (And maybe a small ding in it if necessary) and try again.
You can put the tire on two different digital balancer and they will have two different read outs.
i use the old balancer to find the heavy spots on tie and rims :D then you can match them up during mounting, will use less weights during actual computer balancing :D
Apples to apples comparison should have static balanced it on the spin balancer
I'd try it on the road and see if there is. Vibration when you drive at Hi-Way speeds .... A lot of tire shops have kids that don't know how to use half those tools and as well with the bubble balance system you should do a "Y" balance the heavy area at the bottom of the Y and you put the weights at the top of the "Y" that is the proper way to do a bubble balance...
We saw the bubble looked calibrated, but digital one could be way off, how would we know? I know gravity doesn't lie, but a bad calibration out of the factory, and shipping on sensative equiptment is common.
Scott R gravity does not lie ... Lol, Gravity IS THE LIE ..
You Tube 🤣🤣 don’t be that guy bro
I've used an old Micro Balancer that is very sensitive and have always had excellent results mostly because I'm a fussy bastard when using it. The problem is it won't work on some aluminum alloy wheels because the hole in the center is too small to fit over that really excellent oversized vile. Guess I'll have to pick up one of these cheaper units with that tiny little vile.
People posting comments here do not understand the dynamics of wheel balancers or how they work, including Gerard Burke. A static, bubble balancer only checks for static imbalance because its, well, static. An electronic balancer measures static balance and because it turns the wheel it also checks dynamic balance, because its, well, rotating (moving). If you consider the static balance was 45 grams, and the electronic one was 20+10 grams which equals 30 grams. This makes a difference of 15 Grams, and if balancing is 10 grams or less it will not be felt on the steering. As the dynamic electronic machine is set to round up to the nearest 5 grams it could conceivably only be a 13 gram difference. Knock the 10 grammes leeway out and that leaves a potential difference of only 2 Grams ! Hardly worth worrying about.
Thanks for a straightforward video, without any annoying gimmicks or appalling 'music'.
I saw you put the weight on the outer face of the tire. I have seen videos where they put the weight on the inner side only and not the outside. I have also seen other videos where they said to divide the weight needed and put 1/2 on the inside and 1/2 on the outside. Might this have something to do with how the machine interprets it. There is also the question as to whether or not these finding have to do with side to side balancing and not rotational balancing. I have heard people talk about this as being not as crucial, however is that part of what the machine is finding. How do we know if these readings you got after the bubble on the computer will affect the actual forces on the tire when we are driving. Did you try to drive the tire after the bubble balancing so see how the bubble balance worked when the tire was in use? That bubble balancer also looks old and could be worn which also happens to be a different design than others I have seen. Others have used a new balancer like the harbor freight. Maybe that does a more accurate job if your bubble balancer has some issue. I think your findings may bring about these questions and are not giving an accurate comparison between the bubble and computer. Maybe you also run a shop and are just trying to push more business your way rather than people trying to balance a tire themselves. You would have financial gains. We could not see where the bubble was that clearly in the video. The balancing pivot point or the seat in the bubble unit could also have pits or gouges in it which would affect its accuracy.
The new style is better I'm sure. But I'd love to see a tire life test. I bubble balanced and have gotten long life on the tires in the distant past.
Is the bubble balancer not static
How do you know the Digital Wheel Balancer is right
The best wheel balancer I have seen was years ago in a small town shop. This unit balanced the wheel as it was on the auto. It spun the wheel very fast and had another unit mounted to the wheel itself. When done it showed how much weight and where.
That balances the wheel and brake assembly together, so if the tire is installed on another axle, it may not be in perfect balance. If the wheel was a drive wheel, the machine would also spin the drive axle at high speed, which may not be good for the differential.
You re wrong. Half on each side. Calibraited the new one?
exactly!
yeah I was wondering why he never put weights on the other side, if that was simply cut out of the video?
just what I want to post.
He does not know his tools.
What have we leart.you did it wronggggggggg
Good video.. What would be really interesting is, comparing the results, same Tyre of course, with a couple of other machines
I dont think so. 25/47 And, where does the e balancer place the weights?
What have we learned? A couple things: Never put weights on only one side static balancing. Split weights or put 'stick-on weights' to the center inside of the rim when static balancing. Never had a problem with vibration or tread wear and no suspension issues. Dynamic wheel balancer equipment needs constant calibrating which is overlooked by many garages due to volume and almighty $$$. Equipment is prone to environmental temp issues, voltage/amperage fluctuations, component and dirty grounding issues etc. Saw one garage had constant EMF issues, and they were near HV power lines and caused variations and inconsistencies in their mains panel. Would I have dynamic balancing if I owned a garage, absolutely, but I would ensure the equipment is installed and maintained correctly, and my employees would be well trained, and have the integrity to ensure cals on a consistent schedule.
Your test is wrong. Your ring next to the rim is shaking when you balance it. You can see it out of balance at 2:53 and 3:40.
The bubble balancing should have been done splitting the weight between the inside and outside.
Our digital balancer has a choice between static and dynamic balance. Had you been able to select static balance on your digital, it may have been closer. If you were to do a perfect static balance on a digital machine, then run it on dynamic it would also be way off.
I have used both, no doubt the digital machine is better, however, when used properly, a bubble balancer can do a pretty darn good job. The true proof is driving down the road. If the car rides smooth with no shake, you have done an adequate job. Bubble balancer is cheap, any DIYer can have one, and they do not take up much room in a shop.
Thank you
Thank you that's exactly what I wanted to see you're a bro car tire shop too kind of got out of control I got quote at like 6 different places when I got home I couldn't understand the plug is purposely making the paperwork the cars Tire salesman in push me too far now I'm going to do it myself I don't I don't mind paying extra charges I just want to know what the hell is going on and I don't want perfect paperwork that's purposely deceptive
I feel u short changed this test , a thorough investigation into the where and why
Hello, could you please redo the video with bubble balancer using one set of wheel weights in the centre of a wheel ?
this would be the correct way to do it. of course when you put all the weight on one side it will show it is off on the machine but will likely perform well on the road. also machine calibrations can be off. i have seen tires come out of the shop that were spin balanced and they created a shimmy on the vehicle at speeds.
My question is how do you know the digital balancer is calibrated correctly? As it’s been said already. My hind end tells me a mechanical device that uses water air and gravity is more consistent than math computation at the speed of light. We have no way of knowing the machine is accurate. Keep retrying the new machine blije loosen the nut, and spin the tire a little and retest. I don’t know. I have seen them through me different numbers every time doing but that way . 🤷♂️
Why should the digital be correct? Maybe it is wrong. I balanced so many times with the digital balancer and got a terrible result. Bubbles don't lie.
Assuming the digital machine is correctly collaborated.
The wheel looks like it is wobbling on the digital balancer when spinning.
I use electronic wheel balancer works awesome. Static balance all aluminum wheels on it one weight per wheel. Does Not matter what speed you drive your car there will be no shake. The one problem with electronic wheel bouncers is when you lose Hydro you have to re-calibrate it and I would bet 90% of people never recalibrated from the time they buy it till they take it to the junk. Hence poorly balanced wheels
but how do you know the digital is not wrong?
Should have took it off the digital n see the difference on the old one to see where the bubble would be.
You should have put it back on the bubble balancer to check. Level bubbles do not lie. And we dont know if the machine is even calibrated or if the settings are correct.
i felt like the point of the video was to shame the bubble method which has worked for many years before the spin machines came to be. i am old school and will trust the simplified method over any computer device, especially when the old way gives you a smooth ride free of shimmy or vibration on the road. that is what you get with a bubble method if you do it correctly. after all isn't that why we balance balance tires in the first place?