I finally understand holographic imaging. I was able to achieve it at home with my setup after a lot of tinkering with speaker and seating placement, DACs, and room acoustics. I was fortunate enough to have speakers that can achieve this to a certain degree. Once you hear it, it's magical. Truly amazing. Everyone who listens thinks the speakers are disconnected and there are other speakers hidden in the front wall. It brings an incredible sense of soundstage and imaging to your listening experience. I have my speakers 4 feet from the front wall and 1/3 rd rule for the side distance. My listening position is 8 feet away from the speakers and 5 feet from the back wall. It's a 15' x 17' room with no windows. I have sound absorbers and diffusers throughout. It's taken a lot of work, but well worth it. Thanks for preaching about it. I learned the concept from your prior videos. Here is a video of my setup. I have it set up for 2 listeners here but mostly listen with one center listening chair. th-cam.com/video/fS5aR22Y4aM/w-d-xo.html
Don't despair! Smaller rooms can give a amazing " NEAR FIELD "experience. My main speakers are in my lounge ( family room) to extend my listening time I put another set of speakers in the much smaller dining room 10ft × 11ft. The FRONT of the speakers are 3ft from the rear walls and 6ft apart from each other. I tell you what my friends, I get a very good 3D image with a intimacy that puts you in the middle of the performance. Smaller rooms in a near field setup also less room interaction problems. Meaning less colouration and more of the music. Infact I much prefer it to my larger lounge. Lots of audiophiles use this approach. I think Steve Guttenburg ( audiophiliac) has done videos on this subject.
Near field listening is indeed very satisfying as I discovered in the 1970s. My AR bookshelf speakers gave a very good account of themselves and I called them my "nearphones". They revealed less detail than my electrostatic headphones, but the imaging was in many ways more satisfying. So it was headphones for piano and acoustic guitar, and nearphones for bands and orchestral works.
Thanks for answering my question. One day, would love to visit to hear for myself. Got the Kindle version of “99% True” yesterday. Can’t wait to start reading it.
I guess a follow-up question might be: Does the distance between the speakers and the back wall improve the depth of the sound stage? I find that my sound stage only goes a couple of feet behind my speakers, because that's the distance between them. I don't have the space to experiment, unfortunately.
I agree and in my listening space and with my gear also the recording/music will dictate the holographic soundstage experience; It makes me want to listen to different recordings even more, it's fun. The speaker position must be away from the front wall (about 2 metres in my room), away from the side walls as well. To take care of some of the reflections points is a good thing. Good topic, looking forward to hear some more about it.
My system projects a 3d holographic image between and behind the speakers. The further from the front wall the speakers, the more space there is for this image to develop. All systems I have ever owned have done this when the speakers are accurately set up. Numerous friends have visited and hear the same imaging I do but there are a couple that hear very differently. One described the central image as being right in front of their nose, another could not stop the sounds coming from the speakers themselves although I find the boxes just vanish. Soundstaging is an illusion created in your brain but some people appear to not be able to create the image properly. Some recordings have phase effects that can place noises behind your head. An example is Marian Hill , Act One, track - Sad Song. LIsten to the tick tock sounds.
"Soundstaging is an illusion created in your brain but some people appear to not be able to create the image properly." Pretty much everything we perceive in the world is an illusion created in one's brain/mind. And it's a combination of what is happening right now and learned patterns that create expectations. It would be passing strange if we all responded identically. I recently discovered that there is a small number of people who don't experience the missing fundamental. Oddly these people are more likely than average to be musicians.
Paul believe me I mean to get back to Boulder (lived there for 2 years and loved it) with my family. And we will definitely pay you a visit. Keep these great videos coming!
The sense of ''near'' and ''far'' comes from how the music was mic'd and mixed,with a combination of spatial cues and phase differences.There are test cds around which demonstrate where sounds should come from within a recorded soundstage.Using these can be a good guide to ensuring that your speakers are set up as well as is possible within the constraints of the room,and how well they integrate with the electronics from the viewpoint of ''stereo image construction''.Recordings can possess sound direction that appears to come from in front,to the side,behind,and even above the speakers.Not all systems portray these qualities so well though,and as always some listeners have different priorities.
@@ryacus Yes,i can understand how many may not have perceived the effect.I'd recommend trying one of the ''system set-up'' cds ,which will often include stereo image testing.Some have recordings of a voice,and/or instrument deliberately placed farther away from the mic towards the back of the environment where it was recorded,and you may also be able to hear some more of the reflections within the recorded acoustic too when this is done.Not everything is recorded this way though,and some instruments will be much more ''present'' and up front.
Ahh, the Paul McGowan school of not answering the question! I would *guess* that hidden between the lines is that in order to get any holographic depth at all, the soundstage has to center behind the speakers. And sound coming from the speaker plane or out in front isn’t able to convey depth. For some reason. But this isn’t stated explicitly or explained.
It's hard for some folks to understand until they experience it. Even then, sometimes you have to ask them to point to the instruments for them to get it.
So the answer is: it just does ;) ... One thing that does come from the speakers (1:53) is vinyl crackles, which diminishes them. Big enough soundstage, they become insignificant.
Hey there Paul, would all you explain in this video work for a monophonic recording as well? How about listening to just the right channel ALONE with a mono recording? Your thoughts please ?
I don't necessarily either agree or disagree with the idea, but in all the forty-some years I've been interested in and using audio equipment, this is the first time I've heard (or read) anyone say anything like Paul says in this video --- including from him or Stan Warren at their store in Santa Maria. This is something to experiment with if I ever get the time to do it.
It's old common knowledge. In fact classical music often has mics up above the performers. With high-end speakers it will sound like the stage is low to the ground, like the speakers are above.
That's one way to put it and by the words it would sound amazing to be able to hear that. Another way to know if you have your speakers set right is to not be able to tell the sound is coming from speakers (not all speakers are masterfully tuned to be able to reproduce perfect holographic imaging) but almost all (not sure if this is possible on the crappiest grocery store 10$ speakers) speakers if set and positioned right should be lost in a sense you shouldn't hear the speakers. You should just hear the sounds. If you can tell the sound is coming from the speaker means you have it positioned properly. but great hearing how holographic imaging can be set as well to make an impression there is a stage behind the speakers!
So it seems that having the apparent location of the sound sources behind the plane of the speakers indicates that all of the elements of the sound reproduction (source, electronics, speakers) have successfully created a holographic image of the original performance, at least for live acoustic music. Who knows what happens with multiple separately recorded tracks mixed in the studio. So the question is what has to happen for the output of the two stereo speakers to combine and arrive at the listener's ears in a way that generates a holographic image? Can you get a holographic image listening through headphones?
Shouldn't that depend on the music and how it's mixed? You can have sounds that are in the distance, some are in front close to you and some can even be behind you or in your head.
IMHO a multi-track recording is just a false sense of space ,the only true imaging will be on a direct to two channel recording with a stereo microphone .
@@asd2640 I think Richard is talking about multi track as in 5.1 or 7.1 theater style listening. Whereas you were speaking of studio production techniques. Am I close?
@@asd2640 Iam talking about stereo as well . And the fact that you say " make it sound like " says it all . It's just a fake illusion unless recorded direct to two channel with a stereo mic ' technique i.e. ORTF crossed blumen etc .
@@richardf7885 Couldn't it be said that all audio recording/playback systems produce illusions, and all illusions are "fake?" All of them attempt to persuade the ear/brain receptive/perceptive/interpretive mechanism(s) that something not real is, or might be, real
It’s about the perception of depth by the brain. That is the holographic sound stage. If you close your eyes then with a great system, you can imagine the position of each instrument, the separation. That is, if, the track was well mastered.
The mind/brain places sound sources in its surroundings far more accurately than vision. It's an evolutionary thing. Prey needs to run away from predator in order to increase the probability of survival.
Imaging aside, on some recordings where an instrument is ONLY on one side, it cannot sound like its coming from any place OTHER than that one speaker (assuming that there are drivers only on the front). That's just how our ears work.
How about in a desktop set up? Is that still possible especially as the image go from left to right in certain songs and speakers are so close to listener
Yes, it is possible. KEF LS50’s (passive) + DirectStream Sr + Crown XLS 2502 + REL T7i under my desk in the center of my listening position. I often rest my feet on top of the sub :) I’m sure it could be better in a different configuration but I do get a holographic image with sound coming from behind the speakers and enveloping me. I think having a large 8’ wide desk helps
Mike S I have ATC speakers with PS stellar dac and power amp and svs sub and while I get a good center image when let’s say when an electric guitar pans to the right - my speaker does not disappear- I am sure I can experiment more with positioning- my desk is only about 4 feet
why not? my crappy computer speaker set is capable of that and any system should be able too, it's basically transparency, just put in different words.
Good sound stage comes from behind the speakers. Really good sound stage is projected in front of the speaker. In either case, your speakers should disappear.
It seems (to me) if speakers TRULY DISAPPEARED there wouldn't be a cue, or notion as to whether the sound is forward or behind of where we think the speakers should theoretically be. If we know the musicians are behind the recording mike, but as you suggest "really good sound stage is projected in front of the speakers," then it sounds that good speakers must also be good ventriloquists. A ventriloquist wants to give the illusion that the source of sound is coming from a source other than him---the true source. If the true source of musicians is from behind the mike I don't know why really good sound stage is projected in front of the speaker/mike. Of course one may simply like the effect.
You're wrong. Due to the way microphones work, if the speakers are accurate, the soundstage should always be reproduced behind the plane of the speakers.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Logic and experience are sometimes two very different things. I have heard systems that project sound into the room and it was just freaking spooky. You could hear birds flying over head. Granted it was a horn system.
depends very much on how the recording was made for example if a mic is placed right in front of a guitar amp it should project right at you on your speaker
That means it won't be playing from behind the speaker then correct? perhaps I have never experienced this "behind the speaker" phenomenon because nearly all the music I listen to has the mics placed directly in front of the guitar amps?
Paul, Does that sound stage radically change if there is equipment or furniture occupying the space? Can we call this behind the speaker, a pyscho- acoustic effect, Or is it mechanical along the lines of speaker excursion etc.? Thanks.
our brains are a very important factor. And you must be in a listening mood to really hear good sound. But also you must often be very accurately placed. The sound stage differs very much from spot to spot. Making a good setup can take a lot of time and effort.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 the reason i ask is because Paul is standing in the space along with the equipment. Is that normal placement to specifically achieve this or is there something else in the works?
@@AFGSstudio I guess that the setup he has is the best way to make the best out of it. But for normal living situation, that kind of placement is impossible. There might be many correct setups. But it must be adjusted to your own living situation. Not everybody can have a perfect setup. Me for instance have too much furniture etc to come close to that holographic audio experience he is talking about. You need a dedicated music room to really perfect the sound image. But that is not for most people.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 the key is to experiment with speaker placement, I've heard better imaging from correctly setup speakers in a family room, than poorly placed speakers in an all singing all dancing hifi room,
@@AFGSstudio When you price high end cables you'll see the wisdom of putting the gear where he has it. As for changing the sound stage via other objects being there, yeah, they can have an effect, normally a negative one if you are talking about in the soundstage area. You need to balance the acoustics in that area, but best to not use furniture, as it has reflective and absorbent surfaces that are not resulting in equal sound travel path distance, thus potential muddying of the sound can result. Managing the stuff in a room is definitely part of my acoustic treatment considerations.
That's the way I see it and like it. The sound is divorced from the speakers and it comes from outside the physical parameters. Front, back, and width. It would be a boring setup if it just came from behind. My setup is expansive in all directions, and if it's wrong, I ain't messing with it.
I guess that is why this behind the speaker concept is confusing to me, for as long as I've been listening to music the music has came from the front and the sides for me never got the illusion it came from the back.
any stereo recording should work. or you can just listen to this video, if it sounds like Paul is really speaking in the screen right there in front of you, it's fine.
I would say that there's a difference between; Listening to my speaker deliver a great sound of the instrument in an orchestra. And listening to a great sound of the instruments in an orchestra, delivered by my speaker.
Could the sound being in front of the speakers be due to the Phase{ wires in backwards}? If the drivers were moving in reverse would that be a cause. Maybe try a 9volt battery to put the phase back the way it should be?
the polarity the speakers are connected has no effect on the sound unless ONE of the speakers is connected in reverse polarity (it will sound weird and somewhat similar to dipoles).
Paul, it seems to me that you didn't really answer the question, but simply repeated that the image "should" be behind the speakers. But why? A holographic image simply requires a three-dimensional presentation. It is neutral as to where that presentation appears, either behind or in front of or behind the speaker.
Paul, like many audio enthusiasts, is often guilty of unintentional obfuscation in describing effects of audio reproduction techniques and systems by his using terms more appropriately associated with visual phenomena than audio phenomena. This has been done for so long that there now seems little chance of developing a more accurately descriptive "fix" for those wishing to unambiguously describe audio reproductive technology and its results.
@@Invictus96vid So is he only going by what he listens to? It can become confusing for people who are used to listening to music that is recorded to come from the front.
@@ryacus If you are referring to Paul, his position is, and has been that all properly recorded and played back stereo imagery must be perceived as coming from between and beyond the speakers (given that your listening position is somewhat centered and facing the speakers). He would say, as he does in this episode, that imagery that is not formed this way is symptomatic of poor reproduction caused by various flaws in one's stereo system. (Possible exceptions would involve recordings deliberately including various phasing effects intended to "distort" the sound stage.) Paul is quite adamant about this. Setups like his (even very cheap ones) inevitably produce the kind pf soundstaging he is referring to. Paul's use of the term "holographic" in this context is neither linguistically nor phenomenologically accurate. There might be less confusion if he would provide diagrams showing what he means by "front," "behind," "forward," "back," etc.
I do think he failed to explain the *why* we want the sound stage and imagining to sound like that, he just kept saying that its wrong to have it sound like its coming from the front without really justifying why. I *think* its more about what it sounds *like* overall. In that the aim is to have your music convey the experience of being in a live setting with real musicians playing real instruments in a real decent size room/on stage. That translates to NOT sounding like nearfield reproduction, i.e. not sound like its coming from in front of the speakers just a few feet infront of you. And the closer you listen to something, the less 3D it sounds. But this "sounds bigger than the speakers and the room" effect is desirable only because we decided traditionally we want to hear music in a live setting. We decided thats the most enjoyable experience. Which I don't know if its true for all genres anymore. I have been considering building some open baffle line arrays not unlike the IRSV but I mostly listen to EDM nowadays and at night club levels, and I am skeptical that synthetic music would benefit or even sound good on such a system. I think 3D sounds and space is good for even EDM but maybe not as much as say classical or rock or voices. Maybe I need to go to PS Audio with some hywyre/Zhu/illenium and give those IRS a try, since I'm actually local to Boulder.... Someone should challenge paul to put on some deadmou5 on his speakers and make a video. I actually think the future of "Hi-Fi" - *synthetic* music (I dont know if those 2 concepts can be used in the same sentence!) is with Dolby Atmos discrete 3D positioning (*not* interpolation processing but actually recorded and mastered in 3D), just like the movies. Instead of asking 2 point sources to try to recreate a live 3D holographic soundstage, its probably a lot more convincing to use an actual 3D soundfield from discrete speakers all around you. And its the best excuse I've got to make use of all the speakers I have laying around.
I think it would take a suspension of disbelief -- for me, at least -- to think that the sound is coming from the space behind the speaker pair. Because I know where the speaker drivers are.
@@bc527c I discovered it purely by accident. I was trying to improve the level of bass from my bookshelf speakers by placing them much closer to my head than the recommended 2.5 to 3 metres away and apart. It was one of those WTF moments I will never forget.
That's exactly what I thought---UNTIL I heard a friend's high end speakers years ago! Although I was standing near the drivers I could point out where the drummer was, where singer was, etc. and they were all away from the speakers in their various positions. With true high end speakers you can tell depth and position of the various players. This ability of high end speakers (soundstage) freak many people out who have never heard high end speakers perform---it's like magic.
Surely to recreate a 3D sound (Depth) the recording must be Binaural? Recorded with 2 microphones.. Bit like vision one eye sees flat 2 eyes can perceive depth..
Cp070476 I was trying to reply to your earlier post where you say you have width and height in your system but limited depth. Then your post just disappeared. Your comments struck a chord with me!! The fact you have height (vertical you say) does suggest to me you have a very good system. Personally I have only ever experienced that dimension in the audio world with Naim amplification. Trumpets being played at head height, 5ft! Tambourines played at waist height. The different height of band members etc etc. That said! I wouldn't say it was the deepest imaging (front to back) but I do have real shape to instruments 3D-ish with very strong tonal colour with percussion to die for. Enjoy your system my friend, depth perception is just one philosophy in audio reproduction.
@@cp070476 cheers I'll check it out. Goes without saying some recordings have better spacial qualities than others. Don't know if you have a streaming service? I have Tìdal hifi. I wanted to suggest you check out the Bothy band album called " old hag you have killed me" the damn thing isn't on tidal. I own it on LP its has excellent height dimensions. Don't know what your tastes are but try the Coralina chocolate drops or pink martini. Excellent tonal colour. Charlie Haden with antonio forcione on the heartplay CD is excellent interplay between the two of them. Apologies if my tastes are a little out of your spectrum.
I'll bet a lotta people having visited PS Audio would be leaving feeling highly envious ( if poor and married) or if very wealthy somewhat rejuvenated and inspired....
@@karltodd2518 True "Near field" is only possible when the speaker is 0.9 feet away from your ears. Any more is plenty to introduce a ton of room acoustics. The reason people like producers use near field is the opposite of what this goon is doing. To get as LITTLE interference as possible from room reflections. That way you get the most accurate representation.
@@lm6036 Not sure what you mean by "Goon" and not entirely sure where you arrive at your measurements. My comment suggested there was "less" room interactions not "NO"room interactions in a near/ nearer field setup. Paul and Steve Guttenburg have spoken on this subject many times. Try it you just might like!
@@karltodd2518 all my systems are near field. I say goon because Paul is one of those audiofools that confuses so many terms. He keep rambling about accurate systems and that being the goal yet he is intentionally adding room acoustics to his products because it sounds "more real" not what is more accurate per se
Sound comes from behind the speakers because the musicians are positioned behind the microphones. If you close your eyes you wont see the speakers so you won't know what's behind or in front of anything. When you close your eyes you can't see.
In fact, if its recorded like that. With the microphone facing the other way. You will get a much lower volume, mostly reflected recording as a result. aka. A shit recording. If you want the sound to appear "behind" the speaker you NEED a backward facing driver OR use an audio processor to change the time alignment or the sound in such a way that it could have been reflected. When you do that tho you might as well add a ton of other equalization effects to it since you are drasticly coloring the sound anyway. I am seriously curious how people like him run audio companies when basic audio engineering and knowledge seems far fedged to them.
Holographic images on a good set up make all the walls disappear. Sounds appear behind the listener and I front. From between the speakers and outside and out into infinity. Live recordings transport you to the venue in the best seat. My hifi is a time machine transporting me to locations before I was born at a press of a button
@@SJMessinwithBoats l can appreciate that maybe not everyone has the opportunity to hear high end audio carefully set up over a long time (hifi shows don't count) it' can be truly amazing and many that have heard my system stand up and walk around speakers in confusion. It's a magical illusion that never gets boring
Alas, you are talking to people who don't think they have enough bass unless the 1500-watt sub that occupies all the space in their boot (their trunk, in American) goes loud enough to make the entire car rattle. Soundstage is probably not uppermost on their minds.
Amir Khalid no dude! Like LEGIT people buying “high end speakers and amps like audison,morel,focal,etc. They also claim to have a HIGH END setup at home and they are just CLUELESS
Love your videos, but I believe your answer missed the mark on the question. You talk about knowing where the sound is coming from relative to the speakers, even if you close your eyes, but what if you were blindfolded and guided into a listening room that you were never in? You don't know what the room looks like and you have no idea where the speakers are actually located. Therefore, how would you know if the hologram sound is behind the speakers? I believe the heart of the question is: does an aft hologram sound better than a forward one?
I have small room and cheap sys except cables logan ascent i pass aleph 5 vtl pre tara .8 cables belcanto dac.set up is like 2.5 feet fromthe back of logan box to wall and from outside edges of speaker to side wall is 33 inches toed in slighly .now i am not saying a flat wall of sound is bad .but boy if want to get your foot tapping and realy getting involved and engaged and amazed when your sys is on without even trying to !!!! That is what my set up do like i have absolutely have no speakrs and no side walls you can stair at my speakers to find where the sounds coming from inside walls maybe!!.you cant beleive how many audiophile friends come to my tiny place and they dont wana leave!!! You cant believe their sys and cost $$$$$$.maybe is the tequila shots .ooh by the way dont get me wrong or assume that sounds in your face and irritating on the contraire .it is just right.thank you .
I finally understand holographic imaging. I was able to achieve it at home with my setup after a lot of tinkering with speaker and seating placement, DACs, and room acoustics. I was fortunate enough to have speakers that can achieve this to a certain degree. Once you hear it, it's magical. Truly amazing. Everyone who listens thinks the speakers are disconnected and there are other speakers hidden in the front wall. It brings an incredible sense of soundstage and imaging to your listening experience. I have my speakers 4 feet from the front wall and 1/3 rd rule for the side distance. My listening position is 8 feet away from the speakers and 5 feet from the back wall. It's a 15' x 17' room with no windows. I have sound absorbers and diffusers throughout. It's taken a lot of work, but well worth it. Thanks for preaching about it. I learned the concept from your prior videos. Here is a video of my setup. I have it set up for 2 listeners here but mostly listen with one center listening chair. th-cam.com/video/fS5aR22Y4aM/w-d-xo.html
Don't despair! Smaller rooms can give a amazing " NEAR FIELD "experience. My main speakers are in my lounge ( family room) to extend my listening time I put another set of speakers in the much smaller dining room 10ft × 11ft. The FRONT of the speakers are 3ft from the rear walls and 6ft apart from each other. I tell you what my friends, I get a very good 3D image with a intimacy that puts you in the middle of the performance. Smaller rooms in a near field setup also less room interaction problems. Meaning less colouration and more of the music. Infact I much prefer it to my larger lounge. Lots of audiophiles use this approach. I think Steve Guttenburg ( audiophiliac) has done videos on this subject.
Near field listening is indeed very satisfying as I discovered in the 1970s. My AR bookshelf speakers gave a very good account of themselves and I called them my "nearphones". They revealed less detail than my electrostatic headphones, but the imaging was in many ways more satisfying. So it was headphones for piano and acoustic guitar, and nearphones for bands and orchestral works.
@@jonathansturm4163 Nearphones! I like that🇬🇧
Thanks for answering my question. One day, would love to visit to hear for myself. Got the Kindle version of “99% True” yesterday. Can’t wait to start reading it.
I guess a follow-up question might be: Does the distance between the speakers and the back wall improve the depth of the sound stage? I find that my sound stage only goes a couple of feet behind my speakers, because that's the distance between them. I don't have the space to experiment, unfortunately.
I agree and in my listening space and with my gear also the recording/music will dictate the holographic soundstage experience; It makes me want to listen to different recordings even more, it's fun. The speaker position must be away from the front wall (about 2 metres in my room), away from the side walls as well. To take care of some of the reflections points is a good thing. Good topic, looking forward to hear some more about it.
My system projects a 3d holographic image between and behind the speakers. The further from the front wall the speakers, the more space there is for this image to develop. All systems I have ever owned have done this when the speakers are accurately set up. Numerous friends have visited and hear the same imaging I do but there are a couple that hear very differently. One described the central image as being right in front of their nose, another could not stop the sounds coming from the speakers themselves although I find the boxes just vanish. Soundstaging is an illusion created in your brain but some people appear to not be able to create the image properly.
Some recordings have phase effects that can place noises behind your head. An example is Marian Hill , Act One, track - Sad Song. LIsten to the tick tock sounds.
"Soundstaging is an illusion created in your brain but some people appear to not be able to create the image properly."
Pretty much everything we perceive in the world is an illusion created in one's brain/mind. And it's a combination of what is happening right now and learned patterns that create expectations. It would be passing strange if we all responded identically. I recently discovered that there is a small number of people who don't experience the missing fundamental. Oddly these people are more likely than average to be musicians.
Paul believe me I mean to get back to Boulder (lived there for 2 years and loved it) with my family. And we will definitely pay you a visit. Keep these great videos coming!
The sense of ''near'' and ''far'' comes from how the music was mic'd and mixed,with a combination of spatial cues and phase differences.There are test cds around which demonstrate where sounds should come from within a recorded soundstage.Using these can be a good guide to ensuring that your speakers are set up as well as is possible within the constraints of the room,and how well they integrate with the electronics from the viewpoint of ''stereo image construction''.Recordings can possess sound direction that appears to come from in front,to the side,behind,and even above the speakers.Not all systems portray these qualities so well though,and as always some listeners have different priorities.
I must never listen to music that is recorded to appear to come from behind the speakers because it's a foreign concept to me.
@@ryacus Yes,i can understand how many may not have perceived the effect.I'd recommend trying one of the ''system set-up'' cds ,which will often include stereo image testing.Some have recordings of a voice,and/or instrument deliberately placed farther away from the mic towards the back of the environment where it was recorded,and you may also be able to hear some more of the reflections within the recorded acoustic too when this is done.Not everything is recorded this way though,and some instruments will be much more ''present'' and up front.
I dont have a listening chair , I have a dance floor LOL
Ahh, the Paul McGowan school of not answering the question! I would *guess* that hidden between the lines is that in order to get any holographic depth at all, the soundstage has to center behind the speakers. And sound coming from the speaker plane or out in front isn’t able to convey depth. For some reason. But this isn’t stated explicitly or explained.
It's hard for some folks to understand until they experience it. Even then, sometimes you have to ask them to point to the instruments for them to get it.
So the answer is: it just does ;) ...
One thing that does come from the speakers (1:53) is vinyl crackles, which diminishes them. Big enough soundstage, they become insignificant.
well explained Paul.
Hey there Paul, would all you explain in this video work for a monophonic recording as well? How about listening to just the right channel ALONE with a mono recording? Your thoughts please ?
I don't necessarily either agree or disagree with the idea,
but in all the forty-some years I've been interested in and using audio equipment,
this is the first time I've heard (or read) anyone say anything like Paul says in this video ---
including from him or Stan Warren at their store in Santa Maria.
This is something to experiment with if I ever get the time to do it.
It's old common knowledge. In fact classical music often has mics up above the performers. With high-end speakers it will sound like the stage is low to the ground, like the speakers are above.
That's one way to put it and by the words it would sound amazing to be able to hear that. Another way to know if you have your speakers set right is to not be able to tell the sound is coming from speakers (not all speakers are masterfully tuned to be able to reproduce perfect holographic imaging) but almost all (not sure if this is possible on the crappiest grocery store 10$ speakers) speakers if set and positioned right should be lost in a sense you shouldn't hear the speakers. You should just hear the sounds. If you can tell the sound is coming from the speaker means you have it positioned properly.
but great hearing how holographic imaging can be set as well to make an impression there is a stage behind the speakers!
So it seems that having the apparent location of the sound sources behind the plane of the speakers indicates that all of the elements of the sound reproduction (source, electronics, speakers) have successfully created a holographic image of the original performance, at least for live acoustic music. Who knows what happens with multiple separately recorded tracks mixed in the studio. So the question is what has to happen for the output of the two stereo speakers to combine and arrive at the listener's ears in a way that generates a holographic image? Can you get a holographic image listening through headphones?
Shouldn't that depend on the music and how it's mixed?
You can have sounds that are in the distance, some are in front close to you and some can even be behind you or in your head.
IMHO a multi-track recording is just a false sense of space ,the only true imaging will be on a direct to two channel recording with a stereo microphone .
@@richardf7885 I was still talking about stereo, 2 channels only. You can still make it sound like it's coming from behind.
@@asd2640 I think Richard is talking about multi track as in 5.1 or 7.1
theater style listening.
Whereas you were speaking of studio production techniques.
Am I close?
@@asd2640 Iam talking about stereo as well . And the fact that you say " make it sound like " says it all .
It's just a fake illusion unless recorded direct to two channel with a stereo mic ' technique i.e. ORTF crossed blumen etc .
@@richardf7885 Couldn't it be said that all audio recording/playback systems produce illusions, and all illusions are "fake?" All of them attempt to persuade the ear/brain receptive/perceptive/interpretive mechanism(s) that something not real is, or might be, real
Yes,speaker design takes skill and time, so much more than a box and some drivers.
It’s about the perception of depth by the brain. That is the holographic sound stage.
If you close your eyes then with a great system, you can imagine the position of each instrument, the separation. That is, if, the track was well mastered.
The mind/brain places sound sources in its surroundings far more accurately than vision. It's an evolutionary thing. Prey needs to run away from predator in order to increase the probability of survival.
It doesn't even have to be a great system. I get that with a pair of elac B6, and a peach tree integrated.
Imaging aside, on some recordings where an instrument is ONLY on one side, it cannot sound like its coming from any place OTHER than that one speaker (assuming that there are drivers only on the front). That's just how our ears work.
How about in a desktop set up? Is that still possible especially as the image go from left to right in certain songs and speakers are so close to listener
Yes, it is possible. KEF LS50’s (passive) + DirectStream Sr + Crown XLS 2502 + REL T7i under my desk in the center of my listening position. I often rest my feet on top of the sub :) I’m sure it could be better in a different configuration but I do get a holographic image with sound coming from behind the speakers and enveloping me. I think having a large 8’ wide desk helps
Mike S I have ATC speakers with PS stellar dac and power amp and svs sub and while I get a good center image when let’s say when an electric guitar pans to the right - my speaker does not disappear- I am sure I can experiment more with positioning- my desk is only about 4 feet
why not? my crappy computer speaker set is capable of that and any system should be able too, it's basically transparency, just put in different words.
Good sound stage comes from behind the speakers. Really good sound stage is projected in front of the speaker. In either case, your speakers should disappear.
It seems (to me) if speakers TRULY DISAPPEARED there wouldn't be a cue, or notion
as to whether the sound is forward or behind of where we think the speakers should theoretically be.
If we know the musicians are behind the recording mike, but as you suggest "really good sound stage is projected in front of the speakers," then it sounds that good speakers must also be good ventriloquists. A ventriloquist wants to give the illusion that the source of sound is coming from a source other than him---the true source. If the true source of musicians is from behind the mike I don't know why really good sound stage is projected in front of the speaker/mike. Of course one may simply like the effect.
You're wrong. Due to the way microphones work, if the speakers are accurate, the soundstage should always be reproduced behind the plane of the speakers.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Logic and experience are sometimes two very different things. I have heard systems that project sound into the room and it was just freaking spooky. You could hear birds flying over head. Granted it was a horn system.
depends very much on how the recording was made for example if a mic is placed right in front of a guitar amp it should project right at you on your speaker
That means it won't be playing from behind the speaker then correct? perhaps I have never experienced this "behind the speaker" phenomenon because nearly all the music I listen to has the mics placed directly in front of the guitar amps?
@@ryacus exactly I'm not convinced about this behind the speaker sounding on all types of recordings he implies
Paul,
Does that sound stage radically change if there is equipment or furniture occupying the space?
Can we call this behind the speaker, a pyscho- acoustic effect,
Or is it mechanical along the lines of speaker excursion etc.? Thanks.
our brains are a very important factor. And you must be in a listening mood to really hear good sound. But also you must often be very accurately placed. The sound stage differs very much from spot to spot. Making a good setup can take a lot of time and effort.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 the reason i ask is because Paul is standing in the space along with the equipment.
Is that normal placement to specifically achieve this or is there something else in the works?
@@AFGSstudio I guess that the setup he has is the best way to make the best out of it. But for normal living situation, that kind of placement is impossible. There might be many correct setups. But it must be adjusted to your own living situation. Not everybody can have a perfect setup. Me for instance have too much furniture etc to come close to that holographic audio experience he is talking about. You need a dedicated music room to really perfect the sound image. But that is not for most people.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 the key is to experiment with speaker placement, I've heard better imaging from correctly setup speakers in a family room, than poorly placed speakers in an all singing all dancing hifi room,
@@AFGSstudio When you price high end cables you'll see the wisdom of putting the gear where he has it. As for changing the sound stage via other objects being there, yeah, they can have an effect, normally a negative one if you are talking about in the soundstage area. You need to balance the acoustics in that area, but best to not use furniture, as it has reflective and absorbent surfaces that are not resulting in equal sound travel path distance, thus potential muddying of the sound can result. Managing the stuff in a room is definitely part of my acoustic treatment considerations.
The point about the speakers being the playback equivalent to the recording microphones (which are always in front of the source) is, indeed, the key.
Who really records modern pop music using two stage microphones ??
@@cactus00001 To be honest, I was thinking about classical music. Point taken about pop!
Super nice sound stage should projected in front and to sides of speaker not just in between them and from there should go as far back as it can.
That's the way I see it and like it. The sound is divorced from the speakers and it comes from outside the physical parameters. Front, back, and width. It would be a boring setup if it just came from behind. My setup is expansive in all directions, and if it's wrong, I ain't messing with it.
@@SirVicc mushrooms will help!!!!!
I guess that is why this behind the speaker concept is confusing to me, for as long as I've been listening to music the music has came from the front and the sides for me never got the illusion it came from the back.
It does not HAVE to .
Just take omni spread speakers. The very purposes is to bring the sound IN the room, not behind speakers
Can someone point to good recordings which I can play and test this?
Direct to two channel recordings . Waterlily acoustics comes to mind .
any stereo recording should work. or you can just listen to this video, if it sounds like Paul is really speaking in the screen right there in front of you, it's fine.
Telarc
www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Kindertotenlieder-San-Francisco/dp/B004RUF02M/ is an excellent example and a great piece of music.
I would say that there's a difference between; Listening to my speaker deliver a great sound of the instrument in an orchestra. And listening to a great sound of the instruments in an orchestra, delivered by my speaker.
Could the sound being in front of the speakers be due to the Phase{ wires in backwards}? If the drivers were moving in reverse would that be a cause. Maybe try a 9volt battery to put the phase back the way it should be?
the polarity the speakers are connected has no effect on the sound unless ONE of the speakers is connected in reverse polarity (it will sound weird and somewhat similar to dipoles).
Paul, it seems to me that you didn't really answer the question, but simply repeated that the image "should" be behind the speakers. But why? A holographic image simply requires a three-dimensional presentation. It is neutral as to where that presentation appears, either behind or in front of or behind the speaker.
He did explain that speakers are analogs of the recording microphones in reverse which determines the apparent location of the sound.
Paul, like many audio enthusiasts, is often guilty of unintentional obfuscation in describing effects of audio reproduction techniques and systems by his using terms more appropriately associated with visual phenomena than audio phenomena. This has been done for so long that there now seems little chance of developing a more accurately descriptive "fix" for those wishing to unambiguously describe audio reproductive technology and its results.
@@Invictus96vid So is he only going by what he listens to? It can become confusing for people who are used to listening to music that is recorded to come from the front.
@@ryacus If you are referring to Paul, his position is, and has been that all properly recorded and played back stereo imagery must be perceived as coming from between and beyond the speakers (given that your listening position is somewhat centered and facing the speakers). He would say, as he does in this episode, that imagery that is not formed this way is symptomatic of poor reproduction caused by various flaws in one's stereo system. (Possible exceptions would involve recordings deliberately including various phasing effects intended to "distort" the sound stage.)
Paul is quite adamant about this. Setups like his (even very cheap ones) inevitably produce the kind pf soundstaging he is referring to. Paul's use of the term "holographic" in this context is neither linguistically nor phenomenologically accurate.
There might be less confusion if he would provide diagrams showing what he means by "front," "behind," "forward," "back," etc.
OK then get the spare room ready I'm coming over next week thanks for the offer
I do think he failed to explain the *why* we want the sound stage and imagining to sound like that, he just kept saying that its wrong to have it sound like its coming from the front without really justifying why. I *think* its more about what it sounds *like* overall. In that the aim is to have your music convey the experience of being in a live setting with real musicians playing real instruments in a real decent size room/on stage. That translates to NOT sounding like nearfield reproduction, i.e. not sound like its coming from in front of the speakers just a few feet infront of you. And the closer you listen to something, the less 3D it sounds. But this "sounds bigger than the speakers and the room" effect is desirable only because we decided traditionally we want to hear music in a live setting. We decided thats the most enjoyable experience. Which I don't know if its true for all genres anymore. I have been considering building some open baffle line arrays not unlike the IRSV but I mostly listen to EDM nowadays and at night club levels, and I am skeptical that synthetic music would benefit or even sound good on such a system. I think 3D sounds and space is good for even EDM but maybe not as much as say classical or rock or voices. Maybe I need to go to PS Audio with some hywyre/Zhu/illenium and give those IRS a try, since I'm actually local to Boulder.... Someone should challenge paul to put on some deadmou5 on his speakers and make a video. I actually think the future of "Hi-Fi" - *synthetic* music (I dont know if those 2 concepts can be used in the same sentence!) is with Dolby Atmos discrete 3D positioning (*not* interpolation processing but actually recorded and mastered in 3D), just like the movies. Instead of asking 2 point sources to try to recreate a live 3D holographic soundstage, its probably a lot more convincing to use an actual 3D soundfield from discrete speakers all around you. And its the best excuse I've got to make use of all the speakers I have laying around.
I think it would take a suspension of disbelief -- for me, at least -- to think that the sound is coming from the space behind the speaker pair. Because I know where the speaker drivers are.
I wager you will change your mind when you actually hear it, I know I did....
@@bc527c I discovered it purely by accident. I was trying to improve the level of bass from my bookshelf speakers by placing them much closer to my head than the recommended 2.5 to 3 metres away and apart. It was one of those WTF moments I will never forget.
That's exactly what I thought---UNTIL I heard a friend's high end speakers years ago! Although I was standing near the drivers I could point out where the drummer was, where singer was, etc. and they were all away from the speakers in their various positions. With true high end speakers you can tell depth and position of the various players. This ability of high end speakers (soundstage) freak many people out who have never heard high end speakers perform---it's like magic.
not quite. this 'sound from behind the speakers' thing is basically transparency. just put in different words.
Then you have never experienced what high-end audio is all about. It can be an absolute goosebump inducing experience. Anything else is just meh.
Hi Paul!
Surely to recreate a 3D sound (Depth) the recording must be Binaural? Recorded with 2 microphones.. Bit like vision one eye sees flat 2 eyes can perceive depth..
Cp070476 I was trying to reply to your earlier post where you say you have width and height in your system but limited depth. Then your post just disappeared. Your comments struck a chord with me!! The fact you have height (vertical you say) does suggest to me you have a very good system. Personally I have only ever experienced that dimension in the audio world with Naim amplification. Trumpets being played at head height, 5ft! Tambourines played at waist height. The different height of band members etc etc. That said! I wouldn't say it was the deepest imaging (front to back) but I do have real shape to instruments 3D-ish with very strong tonal colour with percussion to die for. Enjoy your system my friend, depth perception is just one philosophy in audio reproduction.
@@karltodd2518 Listen to 'A Fist Full Of Dollars' i heard the triangle strike above the left speaker.. Good tune for instrument positioning.
@@cp070476 cheers I'll check it out. Goes without saying some recordings have better spacial qualities than others. Don't know if you have a streaming service? I have Tìdal hifi. I wanted to suggest you check out the Bothy band album called " old hag you have killed me" the damn thing isn't on tidal. I own it on LP its has excellent height dimensions. Don't know what your tastes are but try the Coralina chocolate drops or pink martini. Excellent tonal colour. Charlie Haden with antonio forcione on the heartplay CD is excellent interplay between the two of them. Apologies if my tastes are a little out of your spectrum.
Vesica Pisces Di-Polar Radiation Pattern....Speaker Cabinet *DISAPPEARS!!!* 😳
I'll bet a lotta people having visited PS Audio would be leaving feeling highly envious ( if poor and married) or if very wealthy somewhat rejuvenated and inspired....
What's the odds on this bet? where has such thou been hiding and doing? Was it
"we two"
Little River Band?
I like that song as a test song.
sad but but my listing room is to small it
llthpofh It’s possible in small rooms with a sound processor/time alignment
Same problem. Small room. May need bigger house.......not able to afford house and divorce:)
@@karltodd2518 True "Near field" is only possible when the speaker is 0.9 feet away from your ears. Any more is plenty to introduce a ton of room acoustics. The reason people like producers use near field is the opposite of what this goon is doing.
To get as LITTLE interference as possible from room reflections. That way you get the most accurate representation.
@@lm6036 Not sure what you mean by "Goon" and not entirely sure where you arrive at your measurements. My comment suggested there was "less" room interactions not "NO"room interactions in a near/ nearer field setup. Paul and Steve Guttenburg have spoken on this subject many times. Try it you just might like!
@@karltodd2518 all my systems are near field. I say goon because Paul is one of those audiofools that confuses so many terms. He keep rambling about accurate systems and that being the goal yet he is intentionally adding room acoustics to his products because it sounds "more real" not what is more accurate per se
Ok Paul...I'm calling Speaker protective services on you guys for that poor Sprout speaker still sitting all abused and forgotten back there!
Sound comes from behind the speakers because the musicians are positioned behind the microphones. If you close your eyes you wont see the speakers so you won't know what's behind or in front of anything. When you close your eyes you can't see.
In fact, if its recorded like that. With the microphone facing the other way. You will get a much lower volume, mostly reflected recording as a result.
aka. A shit recording.
If you want the sound to appear "behind" the speaker you NEED a backward facing driver OR use an audio processor to change the time alignment or the sound in such a way that it could have been reflected.
When you do that tho you might as well add a ton of other equalization effects to it since you are drasticly coloring the sound anyway.
I am seriously curious how people like him run audio companies when basic audio engineering and knowledge seems far fedged to them.
i was unclear. sorry. but I never get music in front of my speakers. my speakers sound silent. the music seems to come from behind them.
Holographic images on a good set up make all the walls disappear. Sounds appear behind the listener and I front. From between the speakers and outside and out into infinity. Live recordings transport you to the venue in the best seat. My hifi is a time machine transporting me to locations before I was born at a press of a button
Sounds kinda like "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"
@@SJMessinwithBoats l can appreciate that maybe not everyone has the opportunity to hear high end audio carefully set up over a long time (hifi shows don't count) it' can be truly amazing and many that have heard my system stand up and walk around speakers in confusion. It's a magical illusion that never gets boring
I tell car audio “audiophiles” this all the time. The sound should be coming from or in front of you on the dash NOT THE DOORS AND TRUNK SUBWOOFER.
Alas, you are talking to people who don't think they have enough bass unless the 1500-watt sub that occupies all the space in their boot (their trunk, in American) goes loud enough to make the entire car rattle. Soundstage is probably not uppermost on their minds.
Amir Khalid no dude! Like LEGIT people buying “high end speakers and amps like audison,morel,focal,etc. They also claim to have a HIGH END setup at home and they are just CLUELESS
well i heard it recently with holographic centre way behind the disappeared speakers and i didnt like it at all.
Love your videos, but I believe your answer missed the mark on the question. You talk about knowing where the sound is coming from relative to the speakers, even if you close your eyes, but what if you were blindfolded and guided into a listening room that you were never in? You don't know what the room looks like and you have no idea where the speakers are actually located. Therefore, how would you know if the hologram sound is behind the speakers? I believe the heart of the question is: does an aft hologram sound better than a forward one?
Honey I shrunk the Infinitys
Thousands and thousands of dollars for speakers, you can bet I'll be looking at them like it was a centerfold.
The speakers are ten feet off the wall wtf !!!!
Gotta get the band and curtain in behind 😉.
Cause if your eyes are open your ears still are ears,and when they're closed they still are ears.
Hi. Listen through it, not to it ;-)
I have small room and cheap sys except cables logan ascent i pass aleph 5 vtl pre tara .8 cables belcanto dac.set up is like 2.5 feet fromthe back of logan box to wall and from outside edges of speaker to side wall is 33 inches toed in slighly .now i am not saying a flat wall of sound is bad .but boy if want to get your foot tapping and realy getting involved and engaged and amazed when your sys is on without even trying to !!!! That is what my set up do like i have absolutely have no speakrs and no side walls you can stair at my speakers to find where the sounds coming from inside walls maybe!!.you cant beleive how many audiophile friends come to my tiny place and they dont wana leave!!! You cant believe their sys and cost $$$$$$.maybe is the tequila shots .ooh by the way dont get me wrong or assume that sounds in your face and irritating on the contraire .it is just right.thank you .
Why from behind speakers? Cause that's how sounds good soundstage
Paul knows a lot but, he has to stop talking about recording techniques... it's embarrassing.
Paul please stop putting on top of the speakers your like my wife she think it a place to store things.