I agree. Back in the late 80s when I was in EE school, my music-enthusiast friends and I would take audio equipment to electronics class to ask questions about it in hopes of bridging theory to practical application. I remember my prof saying, “there’s no good reason to spend more than about $100 on a home stereo set.” We were disenchanted to say the least.
@Douglas Blake $1000 today gets you far better sound than same $1000 did in 1988 lets say. $100 back then gets you a small boom box or compact cassette and CD all in one plastic set. Not good sound let alone audiophile. $200 for a pair of speakers back then can not compete with modern $200 a pair speakers today.
Love your videos Paul. If interconnecting preamps and poweramps, speakers, etc,. Impedances are more important. But if you have to run audio cables at any length, they will pick up noise if not balanced, balanced audio, the design has a ‘reason for rhyme’.
Randy Slone (RIP) covers this topic extensively in his excellent book: "The Audiophiles Project Source book". (2001). Basically you do it with Op-amps. I believe you do need the ground connection to shield the audio cable from noise and tie the two devices to a single ground. The reason you're using balanced connections in the first place is to minimize "induced" noise.
Take as much time as you want Paul. Would much rather watch a long video with a useful and comprehensive answer, than a short one with a superficial answer that doesn't really explain anything!
Balanced lines are a must in professional audio. Where RCA level might be 1 volt, microphones can be only a few millivolts. When your mic lines are 300 feet and are surrounded by noisy stage stage equipment, even a little interference can be heard through the speakers. The whine of a switching power supply and the hum of an AC unit can be really distracting!
The ground in an rca wire is still a wire so if the amplifier is doing all the differential comparing the noise will still be in both wires and it will still get rid of it really the only noticeable effect this will have is the audio will be reduced for the same input voltage
Thank you for your explanation of the difference between the two. I have a question however. If you have a source, that has both L and R outputs (lets say a subwoofer output on a receiver). Is it possible to take L and R and convert that into a single XLR using the 2 signals? Would that work to connect to a Professional powered subwoofer and feed it a clean signal? Or would I have to ensure that the source has L and R each 180 out of phase of each other?
Those who find this interesting should check out the line inputs and line outputs section in Small Signal Audio Design by Douglas Self, where he talks about a few different topologies for these circuits.
Thank for such a great simple explanation. I need to run line-level 40ft out of my AVR into an amplifier. Both are not balanced should I just use a well shielded coaxial and not convert to balanced?
Paul explains what an active converter does to RCA signals to convert it to XLR by drawing the circuitry on the whiteboard in the final minutes of the video. My question is this: : on PS Audio's fully balanced equipment, how is the negative (inverting signal) generated if not by some sort of circuitry like the active converter?
I have a mini DSP and a pro amp that is used for subs. I have a ground loop humming noise, will using an active RCA to XLR fix the hum ? The mini dsp doesn't have a 3 prong plug, same as the AVR, but the TV does and the pro amp too. So if i disconnect the HDMI from the TV hum is gone, or if i remove the ground prong from the TV plug, again the hum is gone, but i don't want to do that. I don't know how to fix it =/ Will going to a optical HDMI fix this ? I think it won't cuz the ground is still there.
I know i will not get the advantage of balanced signals. I hate the crappy rca outputs on my pre amp. they only accept cheap RCA cables. I aalso have to use adaptors to the 1/4 jack on my PA. I have a couple XLR output female jacks. I may install them so i can use the XLR input on my my PA. I will first have to ensure the pin out on out/in XLR input are matching.. ..... i wonder if doing this (improving the cables essentially would improve the sound? I mostly want to do it because good RCA cables rip the jacks out of this pre amand others i own. I have even had to tear apart the things and replace the rca jacks on the board.
I understand the Technical benefits of running XLR vs Single-Ended, but as a "Blue-Collar Audiophile", I'm still not convinced running Balanced say, from my NAD DAC to my Preamp will make a night and day difference sonically. I'm open to any thoughts and input on this this. And I'm not implying or saying in any way that the benefits aren't "real" or being a Luddite as if this is Snake Oil. Thanks guys and Merry Christmas :)
Why does unbalanced even exist in expensive equipment, when balanced is easily an order of magnitude better? So many people will spend ridiculous amounts of money on cables for an unbalanced system when it is then still heavily compromised compared to a balanced system.
For short cable runs, single-ended is more than adequate. Balanced doesn't give a better result unless you are running long cable runs, like with pro stage equipment, or you need a higher (4v) line voltage to get more power from an amp. As Paul mentioned, the balanced line driver adds complexity that doesn't exist with single-ended. When it's done correctly, balanced is technically superior, but it's overkill for most home audio systems. Ever heard of SET (single-ended triode) aka "Class A" amplifier? These are very expensive tube amplifiers that audiophiles yearn for, even though a Class AB amplifier uses negative feedback in a "push-pull" design for lower distortion (not the same as balanced, but similar principles for canceling distortion). But still some will insist single-ended is the purer, superior-sounding option. Point is, it's funny there are some audio enthusiasts who say single-ended cables are inferior, while others will praise single-ended amplifier design. It's also interesting that once a balanced line reaches a preamp or processor, it gets converted back to single-ended anyway. There's no 100% balanced signal path in audio.
This is fake balanced. The second amplifier introduces a time delay so no way it can zero-out noise completely. There is no way you can convert rca to balanced. You really need a balanced source to connect to a balanced amplifier.
Another point that should have been made is that a balanced signal generally has twice the amplitude of single-ended. IOW, the common preamp line-level maximum output voltage for most single-ended RCA components (such as the RCA outputs on a standalone CD/Disc player) are ~2V, while the same unit with balanced outputs would be ~4v max. So in essence, balanced has a higher SNR, while also canceling the inducted noise, and your final output amplifier to your loudspeakers will need less internal gain to reach its maximum output power, which also leads to a better SNR...i.e. a lower noise floor.
My advice to you is to stop doing those videos as they show your inferior knowledge in the basics of electronics. You are giving perhaps wrong impressions about your company. Are you the chief designer of PS Audio? Please read Wikipedia to get the bases of what a balanced vs unbalanced connection. Please take my feedback with open heart.
Paul..... You should NEVER apologize for taking 8 measley minutes to explain something technical. This is great info that everyone here should know. Thanks for finally stepping UP to a white board. Please use it more often! Lesson 2 of this topic should be discussing the diffs between Active Balanced, Impedance Balanced, and Transformer Balanced. Oh that's exciting stuff!
Great to see an actual whiteboard being used for something during this pandemic where meetings have gone online and we lost the precious whiteboard human interaction.
Paul, great theory dissertation but may I suggest a part 2 where we can get into the specific practical problems mixing balanced and unbalanced signals. Sometimes there is no choice. 1) The level problem. Pro balanced signals are at +4db whereas RCA audio interfaces are loosely defined from -10db to 0db. 2) The transformer versus transformer-less minus side problem. When to tie the minus side to ground and when not to. 3) The professional converter box, why the best option but quite expensive.
Disappointing. You explain what they each are and how they don't really connect to each other. You don't actually explain the best way to connect them. Really all you say of importance is get all XLR equippment. I still like you but this video was not helpful. Sorry. Not as it relates to the title
The diagram for the unbalanced to balanced conversion isn't strictly correct. First, the amp stages as shown are working in open loop and would give a very high gain. Typically, buffer amplifier stages (op-amps) used for such purposes would be having feedback from the output to the input not receiving a signal to make them unity gain. And then, I don't think it's correct to use the output from the first buffer to feed to the inverting one. There are usually phase delays in the output and that would make the inverted signal lightly out of phase. It's more practical to use the two buffers in parallel and use the inverting input on one and the non-inverting input on the other, and use their outputs as the two out of phase signals.
Balanced adds complexity and cost that are not necessary for a vast majority of home systems, and it sounds worse to boot as it has a negative effect on the distribution of harmonic distortion resulting in more odd-order distortion and a clinical, sterile sound that is further away from a psychoacoustic ideal and therefore most folk's preferences. Also, mixing balanced and single ended components is not ideal either, but it's forced on many of us as most modern DACs are supplied with inferior RCA outputs while the best preamps and amps are single ended. This results in a massive number of systems that are not optimally set up, and to top it off the component manufacturers will not be honest about this with their own customers, and generally instruct them to hook up their system the easiest way, and not the best way. You don't even mention this issue, but the fact is many folks need real, honest information about using balanced source components with single ended amplification.
Balanced doesn't sound better. Balanced provides more noise immunity. If the RCA cable is twisted and shielded in a low noise environment, there will be no difference in sound quality.
@@andrewpienaar4522 If you believe that solar flares have an influence on the sound quality of your "audiophile" system, you have much bigger problems to worry about.
Oh boy. Balanced may tend to be quieter when cables run near stray magnetic fields. But balanced does not sound better. Unbalanced sounds equally good. Bill Schnee's custom audio console was unbalanced and had passive summing. Also, pretty much any audio console these days can see a balanced or unbalanced input without changing anything.
Oh I bet I could make this work... RCA Cable 1(Output Ground to Input Ground) and (Output Signal to Input Signal) RCA Cable 2 (Output Ground to Input Signal) and (Output Signal to Input Ground) 1 RCA Output on the preamp, 1 RCA Input on the amp. 2 RCA cables twisted tightly together so that both get identical interference. RCA Cable 1 is wired normally, RCA Cable 2 is wired opposite on both ends. I am 40% sure this would work. I'm doing this in my head, though, so who knows. If this doesn't work, maybe it can be fixed by wiring it slightly differently, or perhaps you would need some actual circuitry because of something I don't understand. I know you can flip polarity on speakon by just flipping the wires backwards, so I think this theory may actually hold some water. For sh*ts and giggles only, obviously. Not recommended for real-world application.
What you said about more distortion in adding an invertor to create balance output is true for home use. However, if you are in a studio environment with very long cable run, there will still be some benefits of converting it to balanced.
Am the only one who thinks the input to the inverting op-amp should not be the _output_ of the positive op-amp but _in parallel_ as the input to the minus pole of the inverter? Thus the signals should be opposite and equal. Like this www.fivefish.net/diy/balanced/converter.gif Reason: Unless the op-amps have unity gain, the inverter's input would be hugely negative compared with the positive line. All the best, Rob
To be honest Paul, 8 minutes is very good! There is a lot of (useless or time wasting or boring) content that isn't worth looking at unless you only have one hobby or passion.I have lot's.Thanks my friend (in a respecful and admiring way), Mark
I totally agree that there is no benefit to converting RCA to XLR in an enviornemnt where you have control of the setup. Though sometimes even professionally you MUST do it. I am a wedding videographer. I record audio from various speaker systems, wireless mic recievers, and DJ sound boards. My audio recorder has XLR inputs. MOST of the time, I can take audio from a source that uses either XLR or 1/4" TRS as an output, and that works just fine. Balanced signal. But just recently I came across a DJ that had an old sound board and they ONLY had RCA outputs on thier board. I had a simple RCA to XLR unbalanced cable. It sounded ok I guess but I can't help but wonder if there's a better way.
since this video is about XLR connectors. I just bought a Crown XLS1002 Two-channel, 350-Watt at 4Ω Power Amplifier. which has both XLR and RCA connectors. I have a top-end old buy awesome Onkyo receiver with one RCA subwoofer out. no XLR I have two questions. 1 I'm planning on using the Crown XLS1002 drivecore2 amp to drive four 8-inch 2-ohm DVC subwoofers. the Crown amp has both XLR input and outputs, (one for each channel. ) is it worth converting the subwoofer LFE on the Onkyo receiver to an XLR? and then using XLR cables from the amp to the receiver? or Just use high-quality RCA cables? Thanks and my final question is. this Crown XLS1002 is a very powerful amp. and can also be bridged. it's a high-end D-class amp. could you do a video on this amp, please? .Thanks again.
What about passive balancers like Neutrik NA2M-D2B-TX? When you look inside, it's just a 1:1 NTE-1 transformer with a single resistor. Is this any better if your source has only RCA outputs and you need to connect to XLR speakers?
Yes, but what about Direct Injection (DI) boxes - of which there are many. I've been using a higher-end DI box for years now, and my balanced signals have sounded outstanding?
You can and should because the phono cartridge is a coil and by its very nature it is balanced. Unfortunately, for some reason, most turntable setups don't take advantage of this.
I think the person was wanting to actually change the port on the unit itself to balanced. I have seen this sort of hack in Japanese equipment. I remember seeing an old Pioneer amp that had been converted to XLR and even a Sony TA-D88 crossover network completely converted to XLR. I'm pretty sure they would not do this unless there was a very good reason and/or a noticeable quality bump in doin this.
Hello! I have a headphones amp that has a 4pin xlr output. What type of adapter/cable do I need in order to use my regular headphones, which just has a 1/4 inch jack? Thanks!
Paul if balanced sounds better why are most of all manufactured equipment is not balanced. I like the single ended connection I no longer use the balanced from the amp are pre I have a really good ear I mean really good ear. I've never fallen asleep to a CD no one ever could fool me with a digital signal and tell me its analog. Yes I had a real balanced amp. I'm not getting it. Alot of $15.000 $20.000 amp and preamps are single ended rca. What's up really.
I'm not sure it "sounds better". If you have a clean unbalanced signal then there's really no difference because there's no real benefit from differentiation - it's not removing any noise. XLR with long runs? Sure that's when it comes into play.
I have a 3.5 mm single ended to RCA stereo single ended cable. if i replace the 3.5 mm head with 2.5 balance, will that work? or how to change rca to balance?
While balanced is technically better, I don't think it will make much difference in home audio, when your interconnect is only about 1m long. Balanced audio lines are essential when you cable is more than about 10m and in electrically noisy environments, such as for microphones on a stage. Balanced audio lines let you run audio over hundreds of metres.
i was think of using a noise gate what do think on a 4 channel noise gate and my amps have fully balanced input there two coustic dr-514 4 channels that have been recapped with all audio capacitors and the bias reset too factory settings should i use the noise gate or just run the balance option with the balance line transmitter for the amps . I think it works like the old soundstream amps with the din cable
Thank you so much for these videos Paul ! They have been a big help to me . I started building small transistor amps about two years ago . Soon I am going to build my first tube amp . It's so much fun building circuits ! In the same way you can play guitar a lifetime and never learn it all , there is always something new to learn in electronics .
you can take the rca and run it through a differential op amp through an inverter? trying to record my moms records to cd without to much volume drop and noise.
Learned a lot. However in the application it is typically a 1 meter component connection. A high quality rca cable isnt going to induce much noise if it is decent shielded cable. Leaving the advantage of the xlr not so much. I have both types of 1 meter inputs on my home systen and hear no difference. However in a pa system with great distances between source and loudspeaker it is neccessary to use balanced inputs most times.
Don't mind longer, detailed videos when there is something good to learn. I love to learn and will spend hours comparing individual opinions to get to the truth. So, don't apologize if your videos go over the alloted time.
my only negative comment is that you failed to mention that the game is doubled when you subtract the inverted signal. That is, 8 2 V signal becomes a 4 V signal make no noise
Now, the million dollar question is... why don't we use balanced inputs on our phono preamps? I mean, the cartridge already gives us a balanced signal, why waste the negative side of the coils by connecting it to ground? Only very, very, very few phono preamps have a balanced input...
Well a HiFi turntable is somewhat a balanced system already. Note that the RCA cable shield is never tied to the turntable chassis. Instead a separate ground wire is run back to the amp chassis that bonds that amp and turntable chassis together. You could easily connect the RCA to a balanced preamp input and have a full balanced system and some high end preamps may just do that. But the standard turntable grounding approach is good enough as evidenced by 60 years of use.
The problem I have with true balanced amps is that everything has to be double, for home audio I have come to the opinion that it is mostly unnecessary, although I have balanced equipment myself I think you can make just as good sounding equipment, if not better with not using balanced, for the saved money, one can use much better quality parts. And why use double lines of signal processing, waste of resources in my opinion, but I might be wrong 😑😜
Like you said, having extra component can add extra noise to a system. When your system has lower internal noise than the transmission wires adds then balanced, differential transmission is your friend as it provides common mode noise rejection
Hey Paul, thanks for the explanation. But shouldn't the noise be cancelled out in the RCA too? The ground wire would pick out the same noise as the signal wire and the Amplifier should cancel that out too.
You can use a 2-conductor + shield cable to connect RCA outputs to balanced inputs. Use one conductor for the signal side of the RCA output - goes to non-inverting side of balanced input. Use the other conductor to connect the RCA ground side to the inverting side of the balanced input; add a series resistor at the RCA end of this conductor which matches the source's impedance, to achieve balance. Connect the shield normally at each end.
for the original question: I doubt the center conductor will pickup same level of noise as the shield in a coaxial cable, which is required to cancel out the noise
Hi Paul. I am really enjoying your videos and the way you have of effectively explaining complicated concepts with a few squiggles on the white board. You’ve made a difficult topic very understandable at a level that gives enough knowledge without over complicating the whole thing. Great work and much appreciated.
Years ago I used to have a bunch of unbalanced to balanced converters made by Switchcraft that got the job done with precision transformers. It seemed to perform well enough at the time but I expect that it probably striped some of the upper frequency spectrum from the signal. When we used them we knew we were using the equivalent of a bandaid. They saved us in a crunch. We were faced with an equipment incompatibility at a live performance and the show had to go on. And on it went thanks to Switchcraft. I remember there was quite a bit of loss through them.
I can listen to this for 30 minutes, don't need to excuses yourself! What I'm wondering: this balanced vs. unbalnced version: would the balanced version be twice as "loud" compared to a non-balanced signal? Does that mean the you have to turn up the volume control when you use the passive convertor?
All thing being equal, then YES one leg of a balanced signal has half the voltage swing, compared the the difference between the two legs. If the signal on each leg is 2 volts, then the difference is 4 volts. Double the voltage means 6dB louder. However, if a component has both RCA and XLR outs, that doesn't always guarantee this relationship. There might be different gain stages feeding each output, so the output voltages might not be exactly the same. Lots of pro audio gear has -10dBv level on the RCA, and a much higher +4dBv on the balanced output. Pro audio gear runs at 14dB higher level than consumer gear.
consumer standard -10dBV (base unit is 1V) = 10^(-10/20) * 1V ~= 0.3162V pro standard +4dBv (or +4dBu, the base unit is "1mW into 600ohm", which is sqrt(0.6) ~=0.775V), therefore +4dBv or +4dBu = 10^(+4/20) * sqrt(0.6)V ~= 1.228V the pro standard is higher than consumer standard by ~0.9114V or 20 log(1.228/0.3162) ~= 11.78dB
XLR is very useful for stage setups as hum and noise can kill the whole show. In my opinion it would help to convert RCA to XLR as a sales concept to new bands who didn't think about this yet and suffer by it.
That's not what a DI box is used for. It not a matter of impedance. Single ended and balanced signals are not electrically compatible. In your example of a guitar amp, the DI box would be used to convert the single ended signal from the guitar to balanced so it can then be plugged into a balanced mixer. Depending on your needs, you can get DI boxes in active or passive configurations, but the main function is not to boost the signal. Its a compatibility issue.
@@solarfall2728 Read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_unit . A guitar pickup has an impedance measured in kilo-ohms and will not properly feed the 200 ohm microphone input of a mixing desk. You lose a lot of high frequencies through a long unbalanced cable. An unbalanced cable can be plugged into a balanced input by connecting the cable ground/shield to both the cold and ground pins of the input (pins 1 and 3 of an XLR socket) but you do lose the advantages of balanced signals. Trust me, I've been doing this for over 20 years. Did you know that you can even use a passive DI box in reverse to connect a balanced signal to an unbalanced input? These are of course a matter of last resort when you are doing sound for a gig and your client turns up with all sorts of weird gear.
@@MrFlint51 I really don't know why 20 years experience has anything to do with facts, but if it makes you feel better, I have over double that. You're just reading simple definitions off of Wikipedia, put there by anyone who wants to post. Your guitar example isn't even relevant. No one would ever plug a guitar directly into a mixing board. It first goes into some type of preamp. Any impedance issues will be dealt with in that component, and will leave as a line level signal. Most of the time that line level signal will not be balanced. That's where the DI box comes in. And yes, all other things being equal, when you convert the signal, impedance will change. Its not something you have to mention. And if all you need to fix is an impedance mismatch, you don't need to use a DI box. So I'll say it again. The main reason you use a DI box is to convert a single ended signal to balanced, and as you correctly pointed out, to convert a balanced signal to single ended. This is done because the 2 circuit topologies are not electrically compatible. Any features the DI box offers in addition to its core function, are just features.
As an electrical engineer I can't believe you explained this in 8 mins. Kudos. Wish I had professors like you back then.
I agree. Back in the late 80s when I was in EE school, my music-enthusiast friends and I would take audio equipment to electronics class to ask questions about it in hopes of bridging theory to practical application. I remember my prof saying, “there’s no good reason to spend more than about $100 on a home stereo set.” We were disenchanted to say the least.
@Douglas Blake $1000 today gets you far better sound than same $1000 did in 1988 lets say. $100 back then gets you a small boom box or compact cassette and CD all in one plastic set. Not good sound let alone audiophile. $200 for a pair of speakers back then can not compete with modern $200 a pair speakers today.
@@mvb819 As hobbyist engineers, there is no good reason not to design and build our own systems.
@@gyrgrls Reasons like... you might have something (anything) better to do? Should English lit majors rewrite Shakespeare?
@Douglas Blake A little off. According to CPI calculator (available at bls.gov) $100 in December 1987 would be $225.84 today
Thank you, You answered my question of noise in high z to using xlr low z that high z is never better. No conversion cancels the noise. ✌️
You are a humble genius, what a way to explain complicated science, Thank you!
This man knows how to explain things. Thank you, Paul!
That was informative and after 40 years now I know why, thanks!!
Great video and couldn't agree more as an IT Director with a A/V engineer background.
Love your videos Paul. If interconnecting preamps and poweramps, speakers, etc,. Impedances are more important. But if you have to run audio cables at any length, they will pick up noise if not balanced, balanced audio, the design has a ‘reason for rhyme’.
Great video!! I tried to study Electrical Engineering back in the day.........wish the professors had your approach.
Well, if your professors back in the day utilized Paul's approach, ... two things;
a.) you'd still be there
b.) you'd have some great stories
I love it when you go into electronics internals . It very interesting . Please keep it coming . Cheers 👍👍
You are excellent at explaining stuff and I am building in confidence in building my own hifi system great stuff paul i look forward to your videos.
Great. Best explanation on RCA XLR
thank you sir for explaining is such a good way.
"We have the positive signal going wiggles, that's the music."
Randy Slone (RIP) covers this topic extensively in his excellent book: "The Audiophiles Project Source book". (2001). Basically you do it with Op-amps. I believe you do need the ground connection to shield the audio cable from noise and tie the two devices to a single ground. The reason you're using balanced connections in the first place is to minimize "induced" noise.
@Douglas Blake You've got star grounding. What more do you need? Hum and interference from ground loops? :D
great explanation of the difference between the two- thanks!
6:25 any decent passive converter will use an audio transformer
I come here for the education. Thanks teach!
Wow. Thanks Paul.
Man I feel like 👍 I was in class and actually learned something 😂 thank you sir
DRV134 chip does RCA to XLR conversion and +6dB gain too.
Take as much time as you want Paul. Would much rather watch a long video with a useful and comprehensive answer, than a short one with a superficial answer that doesn't really explain anything!
What VHL said..👍
Balanced lines are a must in professional audio. Where RCA level might be 1 volt, microphones can be only a few millivolts. When your mic lines are 300 feet and are surrounded by noisy stage stage equipment, even a little interference can be heard through the speakers. The whine of a switching power supply and the hum of an AC unit can be really distracting!
The ground in an rca wire is still a wire so if the amplifier is doing all the differential comparing the noise will still be in both wires and it will still get rid of it really the only noticeable effect this will have is the audio will be reduced for the same input voltage
Thank you for your explanation of the difference between the two. I have a question however. If you have a source, that has both L and R outputs (lets say a subwoofer output on a receiver). Is it possible to take L and R and convert that into a single XLR using the 2 signals? Would that work to connect to a Professional powered subwoofer and feed it a clean signal? Or would I have to ensure that the source has L and R each 180 out of phase of each other?
Please do more whiteboard aided segments. Learning a lot.
Those who find this interesting should check out the line inputs and line outputs section in Small Signal Audio Design by Douglas Self, where he talks about a few different topologies for these circuits.
Audio transformer is another passive solution, about $40 to $200 depending on quality, features and number of channels.
thank's alot good information .i like
Thank for such a great simple explanation.
I need to run line-level 40ft out of my AVR into an amplifier. Both are not balanced should I just use a well shielded coaxial and not convert to balanced?
Great video. Thanks, Paul.
Paul explains what an active converter does to RCA signals to convert it to XLR by drawing the circuitry on the whiteboard in the final minutes of the video.
My question is this: : on PS Audio's fully balanced equipment, how is the negative (inverting signal) generated if not by some sort of circuitry like the active converter?
I have a mini DSP and a pro amp that is used for subs. I have a ground loop humming noise, will using an active RCA to XLR fix the hum ?
The mini dsp doesn't have a 3 prong plug, same as the AVR, but the TV does and the pro amp too. So if i disconnect the HDMI from the TV hum is gone, or if i remove the ground prong from the TV plug, again the hum is gone, but i don't want to do that.
I don't know how to fix it =/ Will going to a optical HDMI fix this ? I think it won't cuz the ground is still there.
A great explanation, at least for idiots like me. I would enjoy more white board talks. Thank you!
I know i will not get the advantage of balanced signals. I hate the crappy rca outputs on my pre amp. they only accept cheap RCA cables. I aalso have to use adaptors to the 1/4 jack on my PA. I have a couple XLR output female jacks. I may install them so i can use the XLR input on my my PA. I will first have to ensure the pin out on out/in XLR input are matching.. ..... i wonder if doing this (improving the cables essentially would improve the sound? I mostly want to do it because good RCA cables rip the jacks out of this pre amand others i own. I have even had to tear apart the things and replace the rca jacks on the board.
I understand the Technical benefits of running XLR vs Single-Ended, but as a "Blue-Collar Audiophile", I'm still not convinced running Balanced say, from my NAD DAC to my Preamp will make a night and day difference sonically. I'm open to any thoughts and input on this this. And I'm not implying or saying in any way that the benefits aren't "real" or being a Luddite as if this is Snake Oil. Thanks guys and Merry Christmas :)
Why does unbalanced even exist in expensive equipment, when balanced is easily an order of magnitude better?
So many people will spend ridiculous amounts of money on cables for an unbalanced system when it is then still heavily compromised compared to a balanced system.
For short cable runs, single-ended is more than adequate. Balanced doesn't give a better result unless you are running long cable runs, like with pro stage equipment, or you need a higher (4v) line voltage to get more power from an amp. As Paul mentioned, the balanced line driver adds complexity that doesn't exist with single-ended. When it's done correctly, balanced is technically superior, but it's overkill for most home audio systems.
Ever heard of SET (single-ended triode) aka "Class A" amplifier? These are very expensive tube amplifiers that audiophiles yearn for, even though a Class AB amplifier uses negative feedback in a "push-pull" design for lower distortion (not the same as balanced, but similar principles for canceling distortion). But still some will insist single-ended is the purer, superior-sounding option.
Point is, it's funny there are some audio enthusiasts who say single-ended cables are inferior, while others will praise single-ended amplifier design. It's also interesting that once a balanced line reaches a preamp or processor, it gets converted back to single-ended anyway. There's no 100% balanced signal path in audio.
I like to use RCA cables with 1/4in adapters on them as regular 1/4in TS Cables.
Once I went all balanced - I would never consider going back to RCA.
This is fake balanced. The second amplifier introduces a time delay so no way it can zero-out noise completely. There is no way you can convert rca to balanced. You really need a balanced source to connect to a balanced amplifier.
Another point that should have been made is that a balanced signal generally has twice the amplitude of single-ended.
IOW, the common preamp line-level maximum output voltage for most single-ended RCA components (such as the RCA outputs on a standalone CD/Disc player) are ~2V, while the same unit with balanced outputs would be ~4v max.
So in essence, balanced has a higher SNR, while also canceling the inducted noise, and your final output amplifier to your loudspeakers will need less internal gain to reach its maximum output power, which also leads to a better SNR...i.e. a lower noise floor.
My advice to you is to stop doing those videos as they show your inferior knowledge in the basics of electronics. You are giving perhaps wrong impressions about your company. Are you the chief designer of PS Audio?
Please read Wikipedia to get the bases of what a balanced vs unbalanced connection.
Please take my feedback with open heart.
No apologies for taking too long! Please feel free to use the whiteboard more often.
I love how Paul perks up when things get nerdy..
Paul..... You should NEVER apologize for taking 8 measley minutes to explain something technical. This is great info that everyone here should know. Thanks for finally stepping UP to a white board. Please use it more often! Lesson 2 of this topic should be discussing the diffs between Active Balanced, Impedance Balanced, and Transformer Balanced. Oh that's exciting stuff!
Great to see an actual whiteboard being used for something during this pandemic where meetings have gone online and we lost the precious whiteboard human interaction.
Paul, great theory dissertation but may I suggest a part 2 where we can get into the specific practical problems mixing balanced and unbalanced signals. Sometimes there is no choice.
1) The level problem. Pro balanced signals are at +4db whereas RCA audio interfaces are loosely defined from -10db to 0db.
2) The transformer versus transformer-less minus side problem. When to tie the minus side to ground and when not to.
3) The professional converter box, why the best option but quite expensive.
Everyone has their level
And everyone has their price
So keep away from the devil
And keep away from the dice
-Graeham Goble
5:50 "How do we take an RCA output, and go into in to a balanced input and take advantage of it?...WE DON'T" Priceless.
Disappointing. You explain what they each are and how they don't really connect to each other. You don't actually explain the best way to connect them. Really all you say of importance is get all XLR equippment. I still like you but this video was not helpful. Sorry. Not as it relates to the title
The diagram for the unbalanced to balanced conversion isn't strictly correct. First, the amp stages as shown are working in open loop and would give a very high gain. Typically, buffer amplifier stages (op-amps) used for such purposes would be having feedback from the output to the input not receiving a signal to make them unity gain.
And then, I don't think it's correct to use the output from the first buffer to feed to the inverting one. There are usually phase delays in the output and that would make the inverted signal lightly out of phase. It's more practical to use the two buffers in parallel and use the inverting input on one and the non-inverting input on the other, and use their outputs as the two out of phase signals.
& sell that to the beancounter dept. for your more expensive to manufacture and market RCA to XLR convertor.
Balanced adds complexity and cost that are not necessary for a vast majority of home systems, and it sounds worse to boot as it has a negative effect on the distribution of harmonic distortion resulting in more odd-order distortion and a clinical, sterile sound that is further away from a psychoacoustic ideal and therefore most folk's preferences. Also, mixing balanced and single ended components is not ideal either, but it's forced on many of us as most modern DACs are supplied with inferior RCA outputs while the best preamps and amps are single ended. This results in a massive number of systems that are not optimally set up, and to top it off the component manufacturers will not be honest about this with their own customers, and generally instruct them to hook up their system the easiest way, and not the best way. You don't even mention this issue, but the fact is many folks need real, honest information about using balanced source components with single ended amplification.
Balanced doesn't sound better. Balanced provides more noise immunity.
If the RCA cable is twisted and shielded in a low noise environment, there will be no difference in sound quality.
Yes. And it is always helpful to keep RCA wiring as short as possible.
Yeah, he jumped to conclusions there.
Low noise environments can never be guaranteed, as long as there is any human activity around.
Not to mention thing such as solar flares.
@@andrewpienaar4522 If you believe that solar flares have an influence on the sound quality of your "audiophile" system, you have much bigger problems to worry about.
Oh boy. Balanced may tend to be quieter when cables run near stray magnetic fields. But balanced does not sound better. Unbalanced sounds equally good. Bill Schnee's custom audio console was unbalanced and had passive summing. Also, pretty much any audio console these days can see a balanced or unbalanced input without changing anything.
I'll bet that every decent recoding you have ever listened to, used balanced line for the complete audio path in the studio or live recording.
How about XLR to DIN5 is it have better sound than RCA because Naim amp don’t have balance line.
Oh I bet I could make this work...
RCA Cable 1(Output Ground to Input Ground) and (Output Signal to Input Signal)
RCA Cable 2 (Output Ground to Input Signal) and (Output Signal to Input Ground)
1 RCA Output on the preamp, 1 RCA Input on the amp. 2 RCA cables twisted tightly together so that both get identical interference. RCA Cable 1 is wired normally, RCA Cable 2 is wired opposite on both ends.
I am 40% sure this would work. I'm doing this in my head, though, so who knows. If this doesn't work, maybe it can be fixed by wiring it slightly differently, or perhaps you would need some actual circuitry because of something I don't understand. I know you can flip polarity on speakon by just flipping the wires backwards, so I think this theory may actually hold some water.
For sh*ts and giggles only, obviously. Not recommended for real-world application.
You are amazing.. I am perfecting my electrical engineering concepts through your impeccable delivery
Interesting how Chord Electronics doesn't seem to think that balanced sounds better 🤔
Balanced gives you +6db gain and lots of music is recorded single ended. I like the pureness of unbalanced
What you said about more distortion in adding an invertor to create balance output is true for home use. However, if you are in a studio environment with very long cable run, there will still be some benefits of converting it to balanced.
Am the only one who thinks the input to the inverting op-amp should not be the _output_ of the positive op-amp but _in parallel_ as the input to the minus pole of the inverter? Thus the signals should be opposite and equal. Like this www.fivefish.net/diy/balanced/converter.gif Reason: Unless the op-amps have unity gain, the inverter's input would be hugely negative compared with the positive line. All the best, Rob
Very succinct, now can you explain 4-pin and 5-pin xlr for intercom? Or suggest a good video tutorial for that?
To be honest Paul, 8 minutes is very good! There is a lot of (useless or time wasting or boring) content that isn't worth looking at unless you only have one hobby or passion.I have lot's.Thanks my friend (in a respecful and admiring way), Mark
I have always wondered how trs/xlr balanced signals could be processed. This makes it so easy to conceptualize. Genius!
I totally agree that there is no benefit to converting RCA to XLR in an enviornemnt where you have control of the setup. Though sometimes even professionally you MUST do it. I am a wedding videographer. I record audio from various speaker systems, wireless mic recievers, and DJ sound boards. My audio recorder has XLR inputs. MOST of the time, I can take audio from a source that uses either XLR or 1/4" TRS as an output, and that works just fine. Balanced signal. But just recently I came across a DJ that had an old sound board and they ONLY had RCA outputs on thier board. I had a simple RCA to XLR unbalanced cable. It sounded ok I guess but I can't help but wonder if there's a better way.
since this video is about XLR connectors. I just bought a Crown XLS1002 Two-channel, 350-Watt at 4Ω Power Amplifier. which has both XLR and RCA connectors.
I have a top-end old buy awesome Onkyo receiver with one RCA subwoofer out. no XLR
I have two questions. 1 I'm planning on using the Crown XLS1002 drivecore2 amp to drive four 8-inch 2-ohm DVC subwoofers. the Crown amp has both XLR input and outputs, (one for each channel. )
is it worth converting the subwoofer LFE on the Onkyo receiver to an XLR? and then using XLR cables from the amp to the receiver? or Just use high-quality RCA cables? Thanks
and my final question is. this Crown XLS1002 is a very powerful amp. and can also be bridged. it's a high-end D-class amp. could you do a video on this amp, please? .Thanks again.
What about passive balancers like Neutrik NA2M-D2B-TX? When you look inside, it's just a 1:1 NTE-1 transformer with a single resistor. Is this any better if your source has only RCA outputs and you need to connect to XLR speakers?
Yes, but what about Direct Injection (DI) boxes - of which there are many. I've been using a higher-end DI box for years now, and my balanced signals have sounded outstanding?
can you get a balanced signal from a turntable?
You can and should because the phono cartridge is a coil and by its very nature it is balanced. Unfortunately, for some reason, most turntable setups don't take advantage of this.
Love it, great explanation!
Good explanation. :-) Of course the VERY short answer would be, "You can't. Because you lose the effect of the comparation of that 2nd wire input."
I think the person was wanting to actually change the port on the unit itself to balanced. I have seen this sort of hack in Japanese equipment. I remember seeing an old Pioneer amp that had been converted to XLR and even a Sony TA-D88 crossover network completely converted to XLR. I'm pretty sure they would not do this unless there was a very good reason and/or a noticeable quality bump in doin this.
Hello! I have a headphones amp that has a 4pin xlr output. What type of adapter/cable do I need in order to use my regular headphones, which just has a 1/4 inch jack? Thanks!
Paul if balanced sounds better why are most of all manufactured equipment is not balanced. I like the single ended connection I no longer use the balanced from the amp are pre I have a really good ear I mean really good ear. I've never fallen asleep to a CD no one ever could fool me with a digital signal and tell me its analog. Yes I had a real balanced amp. I'm not getting it. Alot of $15.000 $20.000 amp and preamps are single ended rca. What's up really.
I'm not sure it "sounds better". If you have a clean unbalanced signal then there's really no difference because there's no real benefit from differentiation - it's not removing any noise. XLR with long runs? Sure that's when it comes into play.
I have a 3.5 mm single ended to RCA stereo single ended cable. if i replace the 3.5 mm head with 2.5 balance, will that work? or how to change rca to balance?
While balanced is technically better, I don't think it will make much difference in home audio, when your interconnect is only about 1m long. Balanced audio lines are essential when you cable is more than about 10m and in electrically noisy environments, such as for microphones on a stage. Balanced audio lines let you run audio over hundreds of metres.
Forgot to mention. The signal gain is 6DB higher. Let you make longer runs of the cable over 100 meters. 😊
There's a ghost outside the window watching you!
i was think of using a noise gate what do think on a 4 channel noise gate and my amps have fully balanced input there two coustic dr-514 4 channels that have been recapped with all audio capacitors and the bias reset too factory settings should i use the noise gate or just run the balance option with the balance line transmitter for the amps . I think it works like the old soundstream amps with the din cable
Wish you had mentioned transformers as ways to convert to balanced as well as levels to pro levels.
Thank you so much for these videos Paul ! They have been a big help to me . I started building small transistor amps about two years ago . Soon I am going to build my first tube amp . It's so much fun building circuits ! In the same way you can play guitar a lifetime and never learn it all , there is always something new to learn in electronics .
you can take the rca and run it through a differential op amp through an inverter? trying to record my moms records to cd without to much volume drop and noise.
Learned a lot. However in the application it is typically a 1 meter component connection. A high quality rca cable isnt going to induce much noise if it is decent shielded cable. Leaving the advantage of the xlr not so much. I have both types of 1 meter inputs on my home systen and hear no difference. However in a pa system with great distances between source and loudspeaker it is neccessary to use balanced inputs most times.
Dear Paul, this is the content that keeps on giving. Thank you for your knowledge
Thank you! My pleasure.
This is actually short and on point! Great job!
Don't mind longer, detailed videos when there is something good to learn. I love to learn and will spend hours comparing individual opinions to get to the truth. So, don't apologize if your videos go over the alloted time.
i have a house amp and with 2 sub outs rca and i just bought 2 powered subs with i think blanced xlr in what would be the best way to hook these up ?
my only negative comment is that you failed to mention that the game is doubled when you subtract the inverted signal. That is, 8 2 V signal becomes a 4 V signal make no noise
Now, the million dollar question is... why don't we use balanced inputs on our phono preamps?
I mean, the cartridge already gives us a balanced signal, why waste the negative side of the coils by connecting it to ground?
Only very, very, very few phono preamps have a balanced input...
Well a HiFi turntable is somewhat a balanced system already. Note that the RCA cable shield is never tied to the turntable chassis. Instead a separate ground wire is run back to the amp chassis that bonds that amp and turntable chassis together. You could easily connect the RCA to a balanced preamp input and have a full balanced system and some high end preamps may just do that. But the standard turntable grounding approach is good enough as evidenced by 60 years of use.
The problem I have with true balanced amps is that everything has to be double, for home audio I have come to the opinion that it is mostly unnecessary, although I have balanced equipment myself I think you can make just as good sounding equipment, if not better with not using balanced, for the saved money, one can use much better quality parts. And why use double lines of signal processing, waste of resources in my opinion, but I might be wrong 😑😜
Like you said, having extra component can add extra noise to a system.
When your system has lower internal noise than the transmission wires adds then balanced, differential transmission is your friend as it provides common mode noise rejection
Hey Paul, thanks for the explanation. But shouldn't the noise be cancelled out in the RCA too? The ground wire would pick out the same noise as the signal wire and the Amplifier should cancel that out too.
You can use a 2-conductor + shield cable to connect RCA outputs to balanced inputs. Use one conductor for the signal side of the RCA output - goes to non-inverting side of balanced input. Use the other conductor to connect the RCA ground side to the inverting side of the balanced input; add a series resistor at the RCA end of this conductor which matches the source's impedance, to achieve balance. Connect the shield normally at each end.
for the original question:
I doubt the center conductor will pickup same level of noise as the shield in a coaxial cable, which is required to cancel out the noise
@@philiptong4978 I see. That's pretty interesting.
Fantastic! Would love to see more “positive going wiggles” level engineering videos for us communications majors.
First you have them read the book of Mormon
It sure is fun watching all of you at PS Audio talk about the craft you so love. Happy Hollidaze all, Doc BC
Hi Paul. I am really enjoying your videos and the way you have of effectively explaining complicated concepts with a few squiggles on the white board. You’ve made a difficult topic very understandable at a level that gives enough knowledge without over complicating the whole thing. Great work and much appreciated.
Years ago I used to have a bunch of unbalanced to balanced converters made by Switchcraft that got the job done with precision transformers. It seemed to perform well enough at the time but I expect that it probably striped some of the upper frequency spectrum from the signal. When we used them we knew we were using the equivalent of a bandaid. They saved us in a crunch. We were faced with an equipment incompatibility at a live performance and the show had to go on. And on it went thanks to Switchcraft. I remember there was quite a bit of loss through them.
I can listen to this for 30 minutes, don't need to excuses yourself! What I'm wondering: this balanced vs. unbalnced version: would the balanced version be twice as "loud" compared to a non-balanced signal? Does that mean the you have to turn up the volume control when you use the passive convertor?
All thing being equal, then YES one leg of a balanced signal has half the voltage swing, compared the the difference between the two legs. If the signal on each leg is 2 volts, then the difference is 4 volts. Double the voltage means 6dB louder. However, if a component has both RCA and XLR outs, that doesn't always guarantee this relationship. There might be different gain stages feeding each output, so the output voltages might not be exactly the same. Lots of pro audio gear has -10dBv level on the RCA, and a much higher +4dBv on the balanced output. Pro audio gear runs at 14dB higher level than consumer gear.
08:00 - 08:18 : Bingo! Whole point of the diatribe. Admittedly no worse than some of those derided eBike videos, tho...
consumer standard
-10dBV (base unit is 1V) = 10^(-10/20) * 1V ~= 0.3162V
pro standard
+4dBv (or +4dBu, the base unit is "1mW into 600ohm", which is sqrt(0.6) ~=0.775V), therefore +4dBv or +4dBu = 10^(+4/20) * sqrt(0.6)V ~= 1.228V
the pro standard is higher than consumer standard by ~0.9114V or
20 log(1.228/0.3162) ~= 11.78dB
XLR is very useful for stage setups as hum and noise can kill the whole show. In my opinion it would help to convert RCA to XLR as a sales concept to new bands who didn't think about this yet and suffer by it.
ART cleanbox pro 2 channel lever
You forgot about DI boxes for feeding guitar (high Z unbalanced) into mixers (low Z balanced) that could be many yards away.
That's not what a DI box is used for. It not a matter of impedance. Single ended and balanced signals are not electrically compatible. In your example of a guitar amp, the DI box would be used to convert the single ended signal from the guitar to balanced so it can then be plugged into a balanced mixer. Depending on your needs, you can get DI boxes in active or passive configurations, but the main function is not to boost the signal. Its a compatibility issue.
@@solarfall2728 Read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_unit .
A guitar pickup has an impedance measured in kilo-ohms and will not properly feed the 200 ohm microphone input of a mixing desk. You lose a lot of high frequencies through a long unbalanced cable. An unbalanced cable can be plugged into a balanced input by connecting the cable ground/shield to both the cold and ground pins of the input (pins 1 and 3 of an XLR socket) but you do lose the advantages of balanced signals. Trust me, I've been doing this for over 20 years. Did you know that you can even use a passive DI box in reverse to connect a balanced signal to an unbalanced input? These are of course a matter of last resort when you are doing sound for a gig and your client turns up with all sorts of weird gear.
@@MrFlint51 I really don't know why 20 years experience has anything to do with facts, but if it makes you feel better, I have over double that. You're just reading simple definitions off of Wikipedia, put there by anyone who wants to post.
Your guitar example isn't even relevant. No one would ever plug a guitar directly into a mixing board. It first goes into some type of preamp. Any impedance issues will be dealt with in that component, and will leave as a line level signal. Most of the time that line level signal will not be balanced. That's where the DI box comes in. And yes, all other things being equal, when you convert the signal, impedance will change. Its not something you have to mention. And if all you need to fix is an impedance mismatch, you don't need to use a DI box.
So I'll say it again. The main reason you use a DI box is to convert a single ended signal to balanced, and as you correctly pointed out, to convert a balanced signal to single ended. This is done because the 2 circuit topologies are not electrically compatible. Any features the DI box offers in addition to its core function, are just features.
I've enjoyed every single second...
A good transformer. Is the best day Jenson
put the RCA signal in a DI-box and the output of the DI box is balanced
Note most DI boxes are for Hi-Z to Mic level. Though there are multimedia DI's that covert Line Level to balanced