ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2018
- Converting my 351W to a roller cam.
Cost:
TFS-51403002 STG 2 SBF HYD ROLLER CAM........$265.99
TFS-21400006 SBF RETRO HYD ROLLER LIFTERS.......................................................................$429.99
SUM-850460 DISTRB GEAR FORD STEEL 5.0/5.8.....$29.99
TFS PUSRODS..............................................................$99.99
TOTAL...........................................................................$825.96 - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Thanks for the explanation, whats crazy is the cam is now $70 more than it was when you made this video and the link lifters have nearly doubled to $720. Just wild
Any luck finding the actual lifters they’re selves? All the ones I see are $500-700
@@justinwalk1121 no luck but I have looked in quite a while. The prices were just absurd
Jersey Parkway sign in background.
609 Piney Power
Cheers from South Jerz
nice seeing the raiders floormat at the end.
I have a Chevy 350 4 bolt main, I want to do the change myself. Now I see how to do the change!
Thank you for sharing this info.
Thanks a lot. Considering taking on my first solo rebuild with a flat tappet 302 out of a 90 Econoline and doing a possible conversion. This video helps with actually seeing the comparisons and your explanations. Thanks again
Where are you at on that build?
@@Noah-bo8mc I broke into it but didnt do a conversion on it. We're still daily driving the van.
If it's the original engine from a 90 it should be roller block - at least it will have the provisions and be shortened as well as have the screw holes in the valley. Did you ever confirm that? I belive it was from 1986 forward that all 302 blocks were roller blocks IIRC.
Dude, consider it best to select pushrod length to get rocker fulcrum to tip line at 90 degrees to stud at mid-lift while setting with a single solid roller lifter. Then confirm the roller is centered well on the stud. The method you show requires everything on the head, stud and rocker to be perfectly blueprinted and coordinated with the rocker of choice.
The way shown the roller can be perfect on the stem but the scorpion or TF rockers can still bind up against it's adjuster nut shoulder, or other angle problems and ineffiencies of movement
The dogbone or “spider legs” as you call it, is there to keep the lifter from spinning, not from coming out of lifter bore.
Exactly, flat tappets rotate while the engine is running. Otherwise there would be straight line wear on the lifter base.
Thank you. I was thinking ‘what is he talking about?’.
Just an fyi if you want to rebuild your 351w
If you haven’t started rebuilding the cost of a roller motor from a pull it yourself junkyard is the same as a set of conversion lifters. $400ish
When I did mine years ago I just went and got the f4te motor. Had the bonus of keeping the old motor as a (worn out but usable in an emergency) spare.
No guessing games on pushrod length, no custom pushrods, no checking geometry. Just factory designed ease
This would have been the route I took, but this motor already had all the hard machine work done and it mic’d out perfectly. But yes starting with a roller block erases a few headaches.
I’m just a huge fan of factory parts. Pushrod goes bad? Auto parts store. Lifter goes bad? Auto parts store.
But it is the weakest year for block
The mrk on top of the valve beng slightly forward is due to rocker arm length. Not rod length. You had good rod length. It was made for the stock size rods because their conversion lifters.
You need the spider brackets to keep the lifter from turning so the roller stays in line with the cam lobe.
Not so with link bar retro lifters
Great to see what you doing. I'm planning to do the same with my '76 351W and didn't know what to do with the missing spider lock. Cool.
Thank you for the support. Good luck with your build.
I had to look mahalo. Thank you for the video.
Did you shim the end play on your roller cam before installing the thrust plate.
Hello friend, I have a question related to this, if I remove all the lifters and activate the oil pump, should the same amount come out of all the ducts that feed the lifters? I am telling you this because in my engine, with the engine running and the rocker arm covers removed, not all of them release the same amount of oil on the rocker arms and if there is one that shoots jets that make the pressure clockwise The oil oscillates, is it possible that this lifter is causing so much noise in the engine, knock-knock type, and that the oil does not reach the other lifters properly, why does the pressure go away from that one? Greetings I hope you can help me
really good info here!
i have a general question?.
on the "lifteres." can you find out the "true travel" inside them. have a machine shop make you two aluminum spacers that are 50% of its travel. then use adjustable push rods to check the right height on the valve stem area. then measure the push rods for the exact size? (make any sense!?)
just curious?...
larry
These are solid lifters, so it would be unnecessary as there is no travel like a traditional hydraulic lifter. They don’t market them that way, but they are a solid lifter.
Very good upgrade, I also have a non roller block that I will be converting with that type of lifters. What size of carburetor did you use with that setup on the 351w?
I ran an EFI setup. Easier to fine tune. Don’t be scared of wires.
T.Flow link bar liftets can be installed and removed without removing the heads on a 302?
Be mindful when having the block machined for the "spider" aka "dogbone" retainer bolts. This will cause fractures all the way through the block. A ton of 5.8s and some 5.0s, that are factory rollers, have the fractures with no issues, but some do. Just be mindful if doing it yourself, or let the machinist know to ease it in. Most people have no idea what i said exist, even long time engine builders. Just be thoughtful, especially if you're going over 550-600 HP, the block might split.
What do you mean? Tapping two holes prooerly to hold those dog bones will cause fractures throughout the block? Or some blocks are defective from the start?
So when converting your non-roller block to a roller setup all you need to make sure is, is that the lifters are a set that have the link bar like your set from Trick Flow? Then obviously the appropriate roller cam and correct length of rods per lifter? The roller lifters attached to one another with the link bar eliminates the need of the spider tray all together?
Adam Wofford That is correct. It sounds simple but the cost can be substantial. Most people would hunt down a roller block before trying to retrofit because the cost of a used roller block is pretty minor. However mine was a fresh short block from the machine shop and it allowed me to make this video.
Like you said, The link bars eliminate the spider. Apart from the other valid facts you stated, ensure you run the appropriate distributor gear for your cam.
quick google search turned up a forum of someone that burned about $100 on a set.. said they were terribly machined. metal shavings, wouldn't fit without modifying the link bar slots larger. ended up just buying another set of name brand lifters. these TFS ones are $460 now, but you can get the Howard's ones for $400 and he said that's actually what the "TFS" ones he's using are..
Great job on this video. Just noticed there is no information about what to do in order to mount the roller rocker on the head. These won't mount to stock heads. I don't think. And also the spider mount in the valley of origional flat tappet? How did you add the spider?? So you put roller set up in a flat tappet block right?
1. You can use the stock rockers, or upgrade to roller rockers. I highly suggest an upgrade.
2. You don’t need the spider if you have the retrofit lifters with the connecting bar
@@MonroePRacing can I use ls7 lifters on a flat tappet cam in a gen 4 6.2 ?
I know if you use a billet cam you have to use a bronze gear on the distributor.
What is the part number for thoes roller lifters you got
Your getting a false reading by using a hydraulic lifter to check pushrod length, you need to use a solid lifter or that plastic tool that give you the angle ..just my thoughts
Yea, the lifter is not pumped up yet
Thanks!
Note to 289/302 owners, Rollers much be installed before you put the heads on.
I don't know if it's the same for any engine, but I know for Chevy you need a cam button if you swap a roller into a flat tappet or the cam will walk out of the engine.
Ford small blocks (not sure about other motors) have a plate keeper that holds the cam inside the block and its in between the cams timing gear and the block
The post ‘87 blocks had a retainer plate that would locate the cam too, so you can use the button or the retainer plate
love that you included prices.. little knowledge on converting, but I'm assuming a roller cam that'll fit a roller block, is the same as one for a non roller block? lifters are the only thing you have to retrofit right?
callofgeorge short answer, yes, a roller cam will fit the same as a flat tappet. the camshafts do not change in size. Long answer, a direct swap of camshafts is only recommended if you have a fresh motor or lower mileage motor that has been clearanced. Your clearance is set by your cam bearings. You can run oversized or undersized bearings to accommodate a new cam. However, just throwing in a camshaft without inspecting and clearancing the camshaft and bearings can lead to catastrophic failure.
@@MonroePRacing thanks for the heads up.. wasn't aware of that bit. it is a low mileage motor. its just been sitting while i restored the car and i wanted to refresh it a bit and prep for boost.
callofgeorge I would think you’ll be fine doing the retrofit if that’s the case. To answer your earlier question the cam, lifters, and pushrods are the essential pieces. The swap is relatively easy. However, due to the cost, most would argue getting a fresh roller block is more cost effective. I made this video for those that have a fresh non-roller block and want to put a few more horses in the engine bay. If you need any further assistance feel free to reach out. This specific motor has been running well for a year.
@@MonroePRacing cool deal. thanks.. from what i priced out, it'll cost roughly $850 or so to retro.. not sure if i'll do it or not tbh. i don't see how going roller block would save me any money. my pistons are .060 over, so it'd be block cost and probably new pistons too unless i bored out a new block or found a used one for cheap. thanks for the info though. sub'd
Non roller and roller cams differ in base circle not to mention the variety of roller cams which aren't computer compatible. Just do your research and have a plan.
Go half lift off of the cam spec.Put a degree wheel on motor.To find the lifter geometry then you’ll have the proper rod lengths
Is there any way to use roller heads rather than flat tappet heads When using these lifters? Only asking because they have a lot better verity of roller heads
What length push rod checker tool do you use and which brand?
gregory9740 I ended up getting a Comp Cams length checker. Here’s the link.
www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00062YFNA?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_pd_title
Nice
Can I use these parts for a 393s build. I Dnt know much about what cam to use as I’m barely getting into this, and I know that I’ll be building a 393s
I really can’t say. As always check the math. If your using a 351w block, all should match up, but aggressive cams may require different lifters etc
i just put my engine in about a week ago it was a tbi so i converted it to carb...im having problem trying to get it to run right i put a brandnew edelbrock carb 1406 on it..i got 12-887 holley regulator set it to 6 psi i got it to run starts up good but its backfiring and popping out my exhaust ..i have a vacuum port on my regulator but did not hook it up dont no if that the problem or not..or is the carb to small for my set up...you can smell the burning and the raw gas in park when u accelerate and give it more gas it sound good but at idling its popping and backfiring like someome popping fire crackers..tell me what you think
You’re running too rich at idle. You need to tune the carb. Brand new carbs are hardly ever good to go out of the box. Ensure your timing is correct and adjust the carb.
Before doing that tho. What fuel pump are you using? You may be overpowering the needles and seats in the carb causing a rich condition.
got a question for u ..i got a 1990 k5 blazer 700r trans 2000 to 2400 torque converter in it and im thinking about buying this race motor it has 12.5 to 1 sbc 355 030 over with elgin e-1090p solid flat tappet cam with scorpion 1.6 rockers for total lift of 573intake 594 exhust can i use the torque converter i have on this engine,,..i no i got alot of things to change because it is a tbi fuel injection
Typically a cam with that much lift you’re going to need at least a 3000-4000 stall converter. Any transmission/ converter company can calculate it for you.
Over sizing on performance parts without having the companion parts to support it is the #1 reason people get disappointed in their builds. If you change a cam, you have to change the converter. If you have a large cc head you need the fuel and airflow to support it. If your not getting your power curve to the ground you can have a 1,000 bhp engine that only puts 500hp to the ground. Research. Test. Tune. Modify.
I was the one who told crane and others to put a link bar in between the hydraulic roller lifters;) your welcome
Liar 🤥
got a question for u my brother....i got 1990 k5 blazer 5.7 just got the enging rebuild still have the swirl port heads on it and its pretty mush stock i have high perfomace intake im eliminating the computing trying to make my mine up if im going to go with a carb or some efi sniper..i have 700r4 trans and 4.10 gears and up graded my torque convert to a 2000 to 2400 stall ..it has a up grade cam in it howard cams ratter 188005-09 lift .525/530 and duration .050 ; 227/235 centerline 103 i want to no is that a good cam to go with them swirl port heads and would i be able to hear the cam..i dont no to mush about cams..i no the vortec or aluminum heads would have been better but the engine was already build already..i do have headers 3 inche pipes all the way back
It depends on what your goals are for the car. Any cam with that much lift will most likely be heard. If speed competition is your goal, dyno, test and tune. In engine building You don’t buy the cam you want, you buy the cam you need for your application goals. That being said over-camming and over-carbing are the major mistakes most people make.
@@MonroePRacing appreciate the advice my brother
Trick flow as far as I have found. Doesn't make much of a retro fit cam, lifters for the old school 302 block. They do for your 351 block. Try doing a retro fit for a 1973 302 block. That's what I'm building. I know nothing about a Ford motor. So I'm searching all over the internet. They make retro fit kits. They only come in certain lift & duration cams. What do I do if I want something different?
Lee Olaeta The TFS hydraulic camshaft should still work in your block. Retrofit Cams are for situations where you don’t use retrofit lifters. I prefer to use retrofit lifters because it allows you to use almost any aftermarket hydraulic roller camshaft. If you use a retrofit cam, it has a smaller base circle and your choices become very limited.
@@MonroePRacing even with the different cam bearing size? Hence the word "Retro fit"
Lee Olaeta I am not aware of any cam bearing size differences between block years. If you have a source on this information it would be appreciated. I always have changed my cam bearings, but never had to change sizes due to hydraulic roller or flat tappet.
@@MonroePRacing what year 302's have you worked on?
I'm not talking about the 351. They are all the same.
I may be wrong. BUT, Iv understood that the early 302 non roller block has different size cam bearings.
Look up the Comp cam retro fit cam, rollers. Spiderweb, springs, roller chain. I would rather run a machine fit gear drive. They are much quieter the the regular gear drive.
Anyway. Back to the journals. Different sized.
Lee Olaeta It is possible that cam journals in earlier years were different, however, I have not found any supporting literature. If it were true, simply running an oversized or undersized cam bearing should allow you to fit more modern camshafts without issues.
What was the cost to go from flattappit to a roller I wanna switch to roller cause I just had to pull engine back out cause I have a wipes out cam
Jeffrey Burnette video description has all the costs and part numbers
Don't oil soak lifters before install and set valve lash with them dry! Lots easier!
Yup. Lash needs to be set with dry lifters. This is 101 stuff here.
A tape measure?
What kind of heads are you running for that build?
Trickflow 170cc
Mahalo for watching? You have no Hawaiian accent, brah! good explanation of cam type. Mahalo to you, brah.
hey that engine i were going to get i change my mine i just got a stock 350 few up grades
dont they make a special too to measure for the lifter rods?
Yes that would be the push rod length checker I mentioned. Didn’t have one at the time for this motor, but I did order one and get the right pushrods. Motor is still going strong 💪🏻 in the fox 🦊. Thought about revisiting the subject in a new video, but I haven’t built anything in 2020 other than a coffee table. I’m hoping to find a new chassis in 2021 to tinker with, but prices are pretty dynamic with economic uncertainty in the air.
When you made this video, it was prior to lifter manufactures degrading quality. Lately on TH-cam many people that have built tappet lifter engines have wiped lobes. Roller seems to be the way to go for now... Until quality comes back to tappet lifters again...
They are antiquated at this point in time. Between bad manufacturing and guys running too heavy a spring, flat tappets are pretty doomed.
@@MonroePRacing Yeah, people think the only way to make power with a small block is between 5000-9000 RPM...
It's the oil ,not the lifters they took all the zink out and other additives. Even Rotella and Dello isn't the same any more. You have put the zink additive in every time you do a oil change now. What a shame
@@nctaurussho4664 WRONG. Been running my flat tappet cam with no zinc for probably 10 years without issue.
Did u use stock roller pushrod or stock flat tappet?
Ordered the the proper set of Trickflow moly pushrods after we figured out the correct length
maxpeeding has a roller lifter retrofit kit for $135 for ford blocks.
Saw these but was skeptical of the price. Most the time you get what you pay for. Worth a try on a motor I care a little less about.
they're not worth it.. poorly machined, don't fit, metal shavings in oil ports..
@@callofgeorge
You don’t know. Just blathering
@@rueridge7597 you're right.. i don't know personally.. but i've read the forums, reviews, seen the pictures, done the research, etc.. I'm never going to know personally because I've purchased other things from them and i know their other products are shit. why would i risk my $10k+ motor on saving $300 for lifters.. i don't even know if i'd run their products if they sponsored me and i got them for free..
👍🏻
All new valvetrain why not solid roller?
I agree, if you are building that type of chassis, this would be the time to install solid rollers, however, this build had a different endstate.
Because hydraulic is easy: tighten rockers to zero lash, then add 1/2 turn. Also, hydraulic rollers just match well with street use - how much time does your engine spend at 6k or higher revs? It's less than 1% run time for my motor - I reach there when passing sometimes. The extra cushion hyd lifters adds is nice too - you can stay away from more extreme spring pressures solid rollers need that cause valvetrain to age faster [your motor won't thank you, so just know what you want: performance, or full race]. Personally, I'm still partial to solid flat tappet lifters as they [usually] can get more area under the curve for the same duration/lift vs. hydraulic roller, and can add a good 800 rpm or so to redline - but solid roller still wins hands down for an all out motor. I just have to add ZDDP with every oil change. More often than not, going from flat tappet to hyd roller needs no headwork, but a spring change. Going solid roller will often need spring pockets machined or completely different heads when there isn't enough to machine on.
Do you have a shop on Oahu? Mahalo/Don
CHEVY CAMARO68 I have since departed the beautiful isles of Hawaii, as the need for performance has dwindled due to most tracks being shutdown, but have every intention of returning in the years to come should the performance market open back up.
@@MonroePRacing that is truly sad
Whats the reason for them to shut down?
Liberal polices like California?
Ogtriple Og Some people just don’t like Loud Noises and the decision to develop the SW area of the island for more residences. Tracks are expensive to upkeep, and even more expensive on an island.
are all the link-bar lifters considered "retro-fit" and do they require a "retro-fit" cam or can you run any roller cam with them?
callofgeorge not all link-bars are retrofit, there is a little more science to it, such as lifter length, bore size, and the stroke. I would find retrofit lifters specific to your engine and I wouldn’t cheap out. There are cheap Chinese lifters out there, but you’re asking for trouble if you install them. Quality Retrofit lifters run between $400-$800.
Once you have the retrofit lifters, you can run any roller cam specific to your engine. There is no need for a retrofit cam. You’ll still have to consider piston to valve clearance and other typical valvetrain factors if you choose a cam with more lift than the stock cam.
Basically this conversion allows more choice in your cam. Flat tappet cams have far fewer choices available than roller cams and you don’t need to change lifters every time you make a camshaft change.
@@MonroePRacing cool deal.thanks i've just heard people use the phrase retro-fit when talking about cam/lifters on 351 or non-roller 302's. i know there are more options for the standard roller 302 cams, so i wanted to make sure i didn't need some special lifters to allow the use of those. and that the 351 can use the standard roller cams that roller 302's use.
callofgeorge 302w and 351w cams are interchangeable. So if you find a 302 roller cam you like, you can run it in a 351w. That’s what makes the 302 to 351 swap relatively easy and cheap, most parts are interchangeable.
ChuPro23 the only parts interchangeable are the heads,cam and water pump and the firing order is different to I’ve got 7 sets of headers and only 2 of them will work on my Windsor are all of them will work on my 302 motors
@@matthewjohnson2495 302 HO firing order is the same as 351s. Older 302 firing orders are different.
Is it possible to drill an tap bolt holes for the lifter tray ? And then to use the roller lifters
david curry it’s possible. You have to weld in extra material to tap. The cam journals are right below, so with some precision work, it can be done. Not highly recommended, but possible.
Hi can you tell me the cam and the lift and the duration please?
All the cam specs can be found here: www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51403002
Parts list in the video description.
Always pull an inch with the tape measure to get the correct reading!
My Irish father would have beaten me..
Step one - have LOTS of money on hand.
What the fuel pump?
It’s been a minute since I was in the fuel system. I believe it’s a Walboro 255. Pretty common pump for any EFI build.
look and pause @ 6:40>>>under the Eight! (* *)
What if the link goes bad
I think the answer is obvious. The lifter can rotate and things start grinding. That’s why you spend money on quality parts. Theres no real force on the link, so it is unlikely to fail.
@@MonroePRacing those lifters still working
@@sunfox9481 yes
why bother unless your motors going sub 10 second passes the extra money isn t worth it
If your grinding cam lobes off on a flat tappet cam someting is wrong with your entire set up.
Proper valvetrain set up proper oiling that wont happen. almost never unless cam is defective. Match you components up properly.
I have a 74 351w with a
Small base circle 351w roller cam does nothing other than allowing you to skip cam break in process. You are now limited on lift and duration so you Lose power and the excessive ramp and huge rotational speed is poor design personified ... with the bad harmonics- dynamics of the small base circle 351w roller cams you might actually burn out your cam lobes... with heavier springs guaranteed you will.
These race part sales guys screw people good.
I hope this engine worked out for you.... it sounds like a bad set up
Disgusted. Unrelated, I just got an ad before this video about “men having 6 orgasms in a row,” but I can’t criticize COVID-19. Wtf?!?