Roller Cam Conversions - The Only Way To Fix Modern Cam And Lifter Problems? A Cost Benefit Analysis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
- I've done a couple videos recently covering the lifter failure on a 440 Mopar big block I rebuilt this winter. In the comments, several people asserted that I'm an idiot for using a flat tappet setup, and that the only way to go in this modern era of crappy parts is a roller cam conversion. But is that true? Is this really our only option? I don't think so. Personally, I think we need to make a lot more noise and hold the companies making these parts more accountable. Barring that, what else can we do? In this video, I explain the inherent problem with a roller cam conversion (the exorbitant cost,) and offer some other potential options that could work well for your build.
When I was a dumb kid I never had cam install issues. Never even broke them in. Install and drive away. I was having a stroke when I ran in my son's 225 slant with a comp cam. He had built it at school. We would have been devastated if it failed. Worked out fine, but we were puckered up.
You didn't need to be smart , just have common sense back then because everything was made RIGHT WITH PRIDE HERE & quality was everything!
@@vincentenk4449 im still a 440/hemi and rollercam guy not worth my time/$$ for failure plus rollers on average make more power under the curve and use less gasoline/MPG+ok 👍
Yes im all for some of the points made in the video like cam-regrinder 😢to knowledge thats not as common as a option to buy/modifications on my engine's
I have bought used high performance cams and dropped used lifters on them and never failed, the old factory mopar parts must have been superior to todays equipment
I was shopping online yesterday for roller cams and it didn’t take long for me to realize it is not in the budget. Thanks for the video, good timing.
It’s so much money. I dream of a roller cam in my 340 - mostly so I never have to worry about it. But I just can’t see spending all of that.
It costs a lot more to buy a flat tappet, fatten it, take it back apart and put a rolker. We lost 2 flat tappet cams in a row on the same pontiac 400. After that. we became a roller only shop. It's not even close worth the risk.
I built a 383 in 1987 using a mopar purple shaft. Used white lithium on all surfaces. Straight 50w. Ran the cam for 20 minute break in at 2000-25000 rpms. Not 1 problem out of the camshaft. That same engine was in a 71 Charger, wrecked it, then it went into a 76 Cordoba, then found a 68 coronet and the same 383 went into that. The specs were 450 450 lift and 280 duration. Used the stock rockers and springs. Maybe your springs were too stiff. I don't know. All I do know is that back then you could throw stuff together and it just worked.
Yeah… they knew how to machine lifters back then.
Back then, they were not made in China.
To your point about the high cost of installing a roller cam. I understand they are a tremendous expense but, if you have a one in ten chance of having a modern flat tappet go bad, in my mind it may be worth the expense because replacing a wiped cam will probable cost you just as much in labor and parts. I have a hydraulic roller cam in my 426. I made the change for a different reason but the low end toque increase was well worth the change to me. I still think you are the hardest working man on TH-cam and I want to thank you again for all the quality content and entertainment you put out every week and more.
There is absolutely an argument to be made there. My arguments is that we should work with (yell at) cam and lifter manufactures and get that 1/10 chance down to something more reasonable. Thank you!
@@DeadDodgeGarage one thing to ponder is that the OEM's were having enough flat tappet failures & warranty work on regular street cars off the line to spend that extra expense for rollers on every single new car made. Granted they have better buying power than us but the point remains that it was probobly 3x the price for the components for Detroit to go roller.
@@yurimodin7333 I suspect the switch to roller lifters had less to do with failures than trying to meet government mandated emissions standards and their own power goals at the same time. Same reason they've switched to ever more complex engine management, it wasn't because carbs were failing too often.
I've only lost two flat tappet hydraulic cams since 1980. Both were very mild name brands( Krane, Ziggy Ersen) only one lobe each time went away. The lobes only lost a little off the nose and the lifters had very little wear, just strange break-in patterns.
100% what are we stupid just replacing junk flat tappet after junk flat tappet cam at our own great expense? no thanks ill go roller and get it done the first time without rolling the dice.
I haven’t lost a flat tappet cam yet, I have lost a hydraulic tappet cam years ago , I don’t venture into why we seeing more now, only we are rebuilding engines more today than years ago
Anyhow I found your channel your putting out some great work educational information
Lee up great work
they're junk now mate, its parts materials QC or machining issues..... regardless they're junk, maybe you get lucky maybe you get unlucky.
I have never been more scared firing up an engine after a rebuild than I was a few weeks ago firing up the Mustang for the first time. Like damn near lost sleep kind of scared. The cam I threw in the 302 is a Summit brand and with all the "name brand" cams going flat I just kept thinking that because I cheaped out, I was more at risk. Thankfully things seem to be ok so far, great video buddy.
I know what you mean I built a Chevy truck 75: Chevy 350 4bolt main balanced bottom rotating assembly forged factory crank, anyway it was a 355 and I was using a brand new made in 2005 remember that.... competition cams Xtreme energy 268h 477/480 lift 221/224 at 0.50 lift anyways it was broken in as per competition cams specifications with the preferred zddp additive and the shell rotella t multigrade and it cupped the flat tappet lifters and it had a chatter I couldn't adjust out, didn't ruin the camshaft but it wasn't easy on it and it still has more valetrain noise than id prefer and I had the correct hardened competition cams magnum V8 sbc pushrods two of which snapped like glass... And it had the k motion brand double beehive valve springs 0.0600 left capable. I ended up getting a lot of of eBay a major gamble 1997 melling sbc flat tappet lifters and the matching set of 1997 gm performance sbc pushrods and boom it runs again!!! Oh and I ended up using the older Mallory lube my uncle had although I love this cam series and considering it for the dodge ram magnum V8 roller cam 318 but I am serious questioning that thinking because of that experience.. oh I forgot the trw .020 dome .030 pistons file fit mahle piston rings and the floating piston pins
I'm comparing a roller VS rebuilding my engine "again" due to FT went sour on me.
Im seeing way too many example and reports FT having issues cam failure.
For maybe $2K more cam roller things. VS possibly destroying my rare engine with a FT.
Too many guys 4050 yrs mechanics all chiming in unison on this issue last 10 years. Some ppl won't even sell FT , fact my local machine shop will NOT assemble engines now . The trend is obvious to go roller.
Ispot welded a piece of sheet metal on the inside of my timing cover and then adjusted the thickness of the cam button to achieve the proper clearance and for the last year it's been working fine
I completely agree with your thoughts. Put their feet to the fire! Whats even worse is usually when there is a failure the cam company usually tells you to go fly a kite! It's legal robbery if you ask me! I ALWAYS inspect each and every lifter and cam lobe on video before installation as well an video of the install and break-in process. I've not had a failure yet but ive also caught quite a few defective parts that certainly would have failed.
Yeah, that’s what I’ve heard. We got a refund for the cam kit through Summit / A-tech - wonder if they’ll actually get a credit for it. I did inspect all the lifters for crowns on this one and they all seemed to be there - whether they were dimensionally correct, I can’t say. I didn’t think I had to measure every single lobe for taper, but apparently that’s where we’re at! Important lessons. I had never had a failure before this one. My blind luck had to run out eventually.
I agree 100 percent brother!! These cam co. need to have there feet held to the fire when comes to what there putting out now a days. And I agree about if you fine an old cam that look good keep it. I had a 327 that came out of a 64 Impala that I dropped in my 67 Camaro I had found an old mild 280 cam in a junkyard engine it looked good and I got it for next to nothing. So I cleaned it up and with a new set of lifter and push rods and it ran great while I had the car then I traded it for my 68 Plymouth Satellite.
I FINALLY got a 440! Looking forward to rewatching your build video and crossing my fingers too
Thanks for the followup video. Looking forward to what gets done on that 'stocker' engine.
Man your videos have been great in helping me get my Dodge's running smooth. I didn't realize you're right here in Olympia. Some day I'm gonna have to buy ya a beer.
Glad to help! Haha. I actually live in Aberdeen, but am in Olympia several days a week. A beer some day sounds great.
I don't want to sound like a Dead Dodge Garage fan boy but.... the truth is the truth. Thank you for another informative video.
I don't know if you can get them any longer but Johnson lifters were manufactured in the us and were a very reliable option. I have heard the issue with rolller lifters on big block mopars is that the lifter bores are not high enough so the lifters tend to fail easily.
Most of the lifters that are failing are manufactured in the US. I have learned this over the course of these videos. I’m not totally sure on Johnson - that’s a brand I’ve had suggested several times. I read somewhere that they are coming out of the same factory as the rest of them. Their website is all written in corporate gibberish so it’s quite hard to tell what’s what. They sure don’t come out and say that their parts are manufactured in house or not in house.
Transparency about the Cam Button / Timing Gear pressed fit screw up is appreciated. Measuring press-fit parts and reading instructions is critical especially when charging for your work.
Wish they had shipped me some instructions. They just shipped me a button. This is my first escapade with these aftermarket parts, and it was definitely an important lesson for me.
I have a purple shaft cam & lifter set for a '69 440. Had it for over 20 years!
Awesome! That’s apparently the good stuff. Haha. I wish I had known this was the future we were headed for. I would’ve been collecting more of them over the years.
@@DeadDodgeGarage oh to have Mr. Peabody's Way Back Machine!
Even converting to a roller cam still gives me the jeepers creepers, The Quality control even on normal flat lifters are dubious, Now with the the roller lifters, i'd say it can't be trusted, since roller lifters have more moving parts than your standard Hydraulic/solid lifter. More moving parts = more chances for parts to fail. quite a conundrum!
Looking forward to the failed engine break in rebuild!
Right. We’re supposed to take for granted that these rollers that were never installed there from the factory are totally fine, the quality is perfect and they’ll last forever? Interesting.
Exactly, if we can't trust them to do something as basic as QC on a grind radius and surface hardness on a flat tappet, (and apprentice machinists could do this), then how do we trust the QC on the more complex roller lifter.
Maybe it takes a class action suit to make them care?
Awesome video and makes total sense. Not everyone can afford to go roller. Would it be so hard to get a company that makes parts to do it right? Flat Tappet cams have lived in engines for decades. I totally agree with your assessment of the current situation.
You're absolutely right. These manufacturers need to feel the pain for supplying a defective product. I would at a minimum demand my money back. And I would ask for damages but they are gonna tell you they are limited to the purchase price. There was nothing wrong with how you installed that cam. Shit, for many years me and my buddies used the little tubes of crap they included in the cam box and we never had any trouble ever. And thanks for a very timely tip because I am thinking about switching my cam in my 340 challenger. I guess I had better start looking for a NOS cam now. Where did you find yours? Ebay?
I’m not sure how Tom found the guy actually. But they do pop up on eBay. A-tech (Summit Racing) did refund the cam and lifters, but that’s it. Good on them for doing that even, if you ask me. It’s not their junk… but they’re selling it.
I agree The money saved using a flat tappit cam can go into a good valve job and other quality components. Cheers.
Fixed my cam/ lifter problems with Isky. Still made in this country and if you have questions you can call and talk to a guy working on them. Used them 40 years ago and most recently 3 years ago and same result. No problems.
Awesome. I have had responses saying that Isky, Hughes, and Howards are all still making good products. I would like to try an Isky one of these days.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I’m installing a 264 mega cam in my stock stroke 400 build in a couple of months. It’s very close to the factory HP cam but is on a 108 lsa. I’ll chime in when I have it installed and broken in.
Personally I'd spend an extra thousand dollars just to make sure my engine wasn't going to get slathered with little tiny bits of lifter material all through the whole engine, which would require pulling the engine back out totally disassembling everything and washing every single part to get all the metal out. Now if you have a stock cam with very weak valve Springs maybe you can use a flat tappet Cam and you will not have any issues. So if you have to redo the engine and buy another Cam and lifters how much is the price difference now?
I cleaned this engine out, the bearings are all still good, and we bought a $250 vintage cam kit. So… we’re still well ahead of buying a roller. But you make a good point. In some cases where it isn’t caught quickly, this is a complete catastrophic failure.
Good video. I have to agree with you about the cost of roller setup compared to flat tapped. It's so much more expensive and needs more parts to be done. Motors should work with flat tapped cams. I was lucky with mine but thinking to swap to new camshaft makes me nervous and I can easily find a better place for the money in the engine than using it for the roller setup. Maybe the manufacture's should break in the cams before selling them and that would solve the problem.
I like the brake down shows the difference and i think you made your point very well its not a budget when you run roller
Your cost breakdown explains it perfectly. The cam suppliers want more revenue. The American way. Especially lately.
The oil pump pressure and the helical cut gears for the oil drive is what keeps the cam from going back and forth and from needing a thrust bearing.
Cool, but that alone doesn’t work. See: any video of a roller cam converted engine with a brace against the stick timing cover. They move forward, A LOT.
I've got hydraulic cams in 4 big block MoPar street engines. Isky, Lunati and Comp cams. I've yet to have a cam or lifter failure that was a result of poor metallurgy or production issues. They were all broke in per manufacturers requirements. I use either Rotella T or Royal Purple oil and drive each regularly. Personally I feel the cam/ lifter failure talk is blown out of proportion. Roller cams? Whew....big $ and not necessary on street driven engines.
I completely agreed with you - until it bit me. You have been lucky. I had been lucky too - until this one. We have Comp cams running in many cars currently. I have built and broken in dozens of flat tappet engines over the years, using the right oils and additives and my best version of the right procedures. This one was no different, and it didn’t start to make noise until it had already run almost half of its break in period. That’s the problem here. You can do everything right and these parts STILL fail. That’s what this is about. And when it burns you for the cost of the parts and a week of your time to break the engine down and clean out the debris, and puts finishing your project way behind schedule, suddenly it seems like something worth being upset about. Especially when at the end of all of that, you have to break it in *again* and hope for the best. But I don’t think the roller conversion is the way to go in most cases either. It’s ridiculously expensive.
So 5.3 , Hemi , Godzilla have roller lifters fail. Comps Billy Godbold was gonna be on Musclecar Solutions talking this. DLC comp lifters are available. So , every paycheck I will purchase 1 lifter , and it will take more than 16 weeks to get them . Send the combo to Cam Research for precision heat treat break in just cause I love the rapid flatty tappets? Or go light spring roller?
Well, I’m apparently not the guy to ask, as I’d never even heard of DLC before. All of the rollers failing in those modern engines is part of what gives me pause in saying that’s absolutely the way to go. That and cost… if you can only afford a lifter per paycheck, you’ll be a long, long time from running an engine with a roller conversion.
One thing neat that I've seen is a plate on a chevy or Ford block that held in the cam button jnto the timing chain secured by the cam bolts. we need this with a big block mopar.
The oil's used in the 60-90's had a 1000-1400 ppm zinc content but zinc was not compatible with catalytic converters so the slowly stopped adding it in oil. You should use a high zinc speciality oil. Preferably around 1100-1400ppm. Use a zinc additives assembly lube when installing the flat tappet lifters
I am fully aware, and have discussed these concepts in multiple videos - including this one, I think.
I have had problems with a 440 mild comp camshaft,what i did find out was that you should probably use a break in oil with zink,which was removed from all modern oils but is required to help give the lifter the necessary traction to rotate on the camshaft, most of the newer oils will not. If the lifter doesn't turn it will destroy the camshaft in short order.
The engine that ate the cam and lifters that I am talking about was running Joe Gibbs engine break in oil. Just about the best you can get.
@@DeadDodgeGarage did the camshaft fail during the 20 minutes of cam breakin period
@DeadDodgeGarage i was talking to a sales person at lucas oils ,he told me that I would have to add camshaft break in oil for several oil changes, and also if you were running dual valve springs they recommend removing a spring from each valve to lesson the load on the new cam and lifters. Truly I believe that the quality of our camshafts has gove down
I've heard alot of people complain about a uhh certain brand of cams. A brand that was VERY popular years prior. You can still get flat tappet setups for a decent price that will run reliably. You just gotta know where to go other than having everything custom made at a local shop. Yell at the companies louder!
Bingo!
I hear you on nitch market, i restore 70s 80s inboard jet speedboats.
My personal boat was a "patience will guide you" just keep looking type deal.
Ended up with a stroked 460 and a Comp Cam roller already in it.
I have no doubts that quality isn't the same but that's with nearly every aspect these days. Hard to just put cam machinists in the crosshairs in my opinion. Good quality still exists and the two different receipts is the quality difference. That difference doesn't matter what style either. Quality = Cost with everything.
I mostly agree, but I do have a counterpoint - deal with a local cam grinder, and where the quality goes up, the price is probably doing the opposite.
Don't remember seeing so many 73Chargers on one u tube channel in forever, really like those cars, really want a 72Charger like my first car ever, but I ended up buying a 73 and it is a little better looking body style and it was available, think I will stay with the flat tappet myself but I was interested in what Mopar Joe did, running solid roller lifters with a hydraulic roller cam and keeping the lash tight but do you really save any money when you have to get adjustable rockers to do so, and how long would it last in a street engine, just so many things to consider and decisions to make, especially considering today's engine oil,etc, well have a good one
There is definitely a lot to consider. Solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller can is fine, but if they’re solid you would have to have a gap. If he’s running them tight I’m sure that’s a hydraulic lifter. Joe knows this stuff really well, he’s built way more of that type of engine than I have.
First
I’m a vw guy
But was wowed by my 318 valiant as a kid.
Watching you inspired me to wrench again after a break.
Thanks for that.
Also I’m in western Washington now😂
No not stalking you pure coincidence
That’s awesome! Glad I could help ruin you financially again! 😅
Very cool. I like it here, although being damp most of the time does get old. Haha.
That’s scary I’m waiting for a 383 rebuild. I remember in the 1980 s I replaced a cam in a 318 didn’t change or even keep the lifters in order no lube on the cam started it up and ran fine with no problem for quite some time.
Yep… there was a lot more room for error back then.
I have worked with these flat tappet cams since 1974, Something the oil companies don't tell you is they removed the zinc adaptive that is what keeps the tappets from being wiped.
Had a 1985 GMC which lost the tappets when I Changed the oil in the late 90's. I replaced the cam and tappets and used diesel oil with zinc and problem was gone. Same deal with my '74 Nova with a lunauty and turned to 7000 rpm all day, no problems. Just so you know.
They do tell us. The ZDDP content is much lower in modern oil blends (SN API rating, currently) than it was in the day. Apparently high amounts of it were bad for catalytic converters. And yes, diesel oil is a common choice - although it does contain other diesel specific additives that we don’t need in hot rod gas V8 world. I am well versed in the oil needs of these engines, and discuss them in other videos.
Yes I know that too, the trick was to find the right amount of zinc additive to regular oil that balanced the amount needed for the engine but not ruin the cat,
Wasn't hard to figure out for my truck and old hot rods are immune as they don't have cats. More reason to love our old cars.
Well put.
I'll also add that even though mixing up used flat tappets onto different lobes is a no-no (which I agree with), I've done just that successfully more than once.
And this brings me to another question; how is this really any different from swapping a flat tappet cam/lifter set from block to block?
And as far as zinc additive (zzddpp/quadruple magical oil additives, etc) goes, I've never used these in my old used broken-in bone-stock factory flat tappet engines and have had no problems.
My flat tappet 231 Buick V6 came with and still uses a cam button. Without this cam button, the ignition timing jumps up and down several degrees and is unsteady. Obviously, the cam was walking back and forth causing this when some bone head neglected to install it.
Lots of people run regular ol’ modern engine oil in old engines and it seems to be fine. According to builders, my reading, and years of conversations about this, I think the higher ZDDP level is most important during break in. Personally, I continue to run high zinc oil because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
The theory behind keeping the tappets in order is that they are already worn to match to the lobes. But - machining differences between blocks could definitely result in them not matching up exactly where they were. And, obviously, they spin, but taking them out and putting them back in will end up with the rotation in a different spot than it was when you took it out. In the end, it may not make that big a difference - if nothing else, it’s good practice, and has worked well for me so far. Except for that one time it didn’t…
Race oil mixed gas flat tappets happy engine happy me,until it's adj time😢
Just an idea, break in the cam and lifters on the engine stand, before the rotating assembly is installed. Heads with stock springs, check for coil bind. Oil pump turned by cam. Block off crank oil feeds using old bearings with blocked oil feeds. Drilled tubing squirting oil on cam. Spin the cam with an electric motor. Just a silly idea but the cam could be confirmed good or bad with no damage to other components.
That’s basically what a Spintron does. And is also very similar to what was done at the Chrysler engine plant.
Boy, They got you good! Don't you think that the auxiliary shaft that drives the distributor AND the oil pump keeps that cam
plastered against the block face? Look at the direction of rotation of the engine and the 45 degree gear cut on the cam and
the auxiliary shaft. Making 70psi oil pressure, that shaft is always under load! Can't imagine it slowing down and changing the timing.
Haha. No, I don’t, and the experienced builders who have done roller conversions on the Mopar B/RB engine using a cam button and a stock cover, and then watched the entire timing cover flex outward when revving the engine don’t think so either. 😅
FYI, My Isky cam button, that looks exactly like yours, perfectly fits my TrickFlow timing set
That’s good to know.
Flat tappet, I used a "Sealed Power" cheapie on my SBC and no problems . I think most of the time there is no problem with the cam , but it's crappy quality control sometimes. If even 20% of the new cams had serious problems, it would end their sales. Most people are giving the cams 5 star reviews.
Right. Most must be getting away without issues - but there are also many, many videos and stories of people having issues.
I had a FT lifter go bad a few years back and the scraps took out the oil pump and wiped out a bearing, to turn the crank and resize the rod plus the gaskets to put it back!!
Ouch…
If I was to get a flat tappet cam now, I'd go for a Howard's with their lifters. Maybe there is a problem with quality control at comp cams. But most comp cams aren't screwed up. Do you have an email?
I have heard Howard’s is good. We ordered one from them that was supposed to “ship from manufacturer in 8 days…” yeah, we’re still waiting. Yes, my email is jamienoise@gmail.com
@@DeadDodgeGarage "ship from manufacturer"? I thought THEY we're the manufacturer? They were years ago.
Only cam I've had go flat was a comp. But I cheaped out and used Napa crap lifters cause already had them. it last about year and a half before failure. But just built a Ford 400 from bare block 'not my engine or plans' with cheap cam lifters and stock springs from 1978 hah just used bottle of straight zink on cam soaked lifters awhile no issues 2 years.
comp is aweful
that looks nice brother blue with the black valve covers i like it good job
I can’t take credit for the paint job. Haha. But yes it looks great.
@@DeadDodgeGarage as a matter of fact i might do mine that way. boy o boy Jamie lol
Flat tappet all the way. Thats what I just installed in my 75 RoadRunner 318 💪
I had this happen to me a few months ago . I did everything right and 2 lifters wiped . cam was ruined . luckily I had most everything to go to a solid roller . still pisses me off
Forget yelling at the cam companies they just don't care . its not just mopar but all brands . my advice is street solid roller . the less moving parts the better . good luck !
I know… but if we all did it, maybe it would change something? I know that’s wishful thinking. I am planning solid roller for an upcoming build. That will be really fun to try out.
I know I said roller last time,but I am in total agreement with you about flat tapping. Just a shame we have to worry about the quality of parts in this day and age. Have a 400 for my charger I put together 10 years ago,will be firing it up shortly with fingers crossed. Should be good, cam is purple shaft with lifters from that era.
You might open it up and re-lubricate that cam and lifters. Good practice… and a chance to look for anything else that might have found its way in there.
Absolutely, planned on it.
Hughes in Illinois offers cams they guarantee not to go flat if you follow the process
I’m familiar with them.
Jeep used Flat Tappets until 2006 and those 4.0s are running around out there with 300,000 miles on them. I REFUSE to believe that companies can't build cams and lifters. The company that we should all be shouting at is NOT COMP it's Topline Hylift; they are the only ones that make flat tappet lifters in the USA and the the lifters are more likely the source of the failure than the camshafts. The cam cores mostly 80%+ come from CWC in Mi and they supply millions of OEM cams as well so the cores probably aren't the problem but lack of taper ground in could be the fault of Comp (prob not though). I do know that one BIG difference you didn't cover between back in the day cams and modern cams from Comp is not necessarily in the metallurgy but the design. If you're running any of the new grinds like XE they have a higher hydraulic intensity and if you don't use break in springs or rockers it's tougher to get the cams to live past break in. Also the Howards rollers are probably crap, you gotta pay up for good ones making the roller set up even more costly.
All great points. I have learned a lot in the course of making these videos. I did say in the carnage video that it looked to me like the lifters were the actual problem, not the cam itself. The damage to the cam seemed to be secondary. I learned that the lifters all essentially come from the same company, and that the brand name really doesn’t matter. It’s the same as ignition parts… they’re like all Standard products. Suspension parts… bearings… whoever you buy them from, it’s the same junk. Everything is like that now it seems. You may well be right on the cheap rollers… we’ll see… but yeah, the next most affordable brand is hundreds more. You’re absolutely right - I didn’t touch on lobe ramp or design at all. That has to be a factor in this too.
Looks like after a successful ft cam break in you still need to take the top off to check for wear. Even if lifters were spinning.
We had a ford 289 With a budget summit Cam kit. Its was not the best machine work for sure.
With the removal of zinc in oil, por lifter and cam. The Inevitable happen. Roller 302 later. Still have the 289. I've been running STP high zinc in my inline 6 200. What is your opinion on that?
I’ve never used the STP stuff, but if it’s high zinc it’s high zinc.
Nicks Garage use's the Driven assembly lube on all his stuff. You might check him out. Uncle Tony referenced a video of a machinist explaining what he has leaned and discovered about this topic.
We also use Driven.
I have a 1973 Roadrunner and I just rebuilt the 440 3 years ago and it sat. We never started it. We had a hard time getting it to run so the cam break in was poor. Now we have a ticking that sounds like lifter. I don’t have metal in the oil. Can I just replace cam and lifters and not tear the whole thing apart
You really can’t be sure that metal isn’t in all of the passages… when that happened on this engine, I did break it down and clean all of the oil passages. I really didn’t find anything, so I think it would’ve been just fine. But I can’t exactly say you’re totally fine to go ahead and do that. If you wiped a lobe and lifter face, then that missing metal is inside your engine. It’s a gamble.
When the cam fails, it's your fault. Even if you do everything to the letter as per the cam company. I had a cam fail about a year ago. They asked me every question under the sun. I did everything by the book and used everything they required, and it came down to I didn't have the right air filter in it on break-in. They said to bad so sad and hung up
Wow. What an absolute embarrassment. That could (and hopefully did) lose them much more money than replacing a failed part under warranty would.
If ya take a motor apart keep the lifters in order and then measure the cam and maybe just run an already tried and tested and good part. No brake in, clean and feel good about using the old good origional parts and that's budget. Minded
Yep. If we had even been thinking about this as a possibility, we would have done that with the original. There was nothing wrong with it.
There are also some engines that cant be converted to rollers due to their top end geometry. I guess they should drop those blocks off at the scarp yard?
Right. Yeah, apparently those are just garbage now.
I really want the lope but not the problem
The only way these companies will stop this behavior is if they have to do more than just replace the faulty components. If everyone that had this issue sued them in small claims court and it started costing them a TON of money, this BS would stop immediately. For most people this will cost them thousands of dollars, especially if they are not doing this themselves. If everyone just sued them in small claims court they would need to remove ALL their flat tappet cams from the shelf and dispose of them, and either stop selling this garbage, or fix the problem. If not they would just be out of business...
Why can’t manufacturers break in the cam ? Maybe a spintron type machine before shipping ?
It’s usually only one lobe that fails ???
Is it a cam problem or is it the lifter problem????? 🤷♂️
That’s definitely an interesting thought. I don’t think it’s practical for manufacturers to do this though. They’d have to have a set up for every type of engine for one thing. So either a whole bunch of Spintrons, or swapping between engine types constantly. And it really does need to be in an engine - valve spring pressure, lobe to lifter relative location, and splash oil are all going to be important factors in the break in. I feel like the heat of the running engine may also be an important part of the process, but I don’t know anywhere near enough about the metallurgy at play to rule on that. And, of course, the lifters would have to be shipped in the exact order they were removed. It just seems like a lot of steps they aren’t likely to take. On this engine, three lifters had stopped spinning. Two earlier on and one right at the end of the shortened break in period.
lifter bore angles differ slightly from one block to the next due to manufacturing tolerances. thats why its not a good idea to use a used cam in a different block.
another youtuber is saying to measure the lobes on the new flat tappet camshafts before assembly and make sure the taper is there and the crown is there on the lifters, says its the reason for the prevalent failures lately, bad tolerances' in machining the new parts
Yep. After this series of videos I was told that… several times… and went and watched a bunch of good videos on the subject.
I’m sorry I really need to stop doing that. I put down hyper lube and the corrective text turned it into hyper Line what we used to do when we were putting engines together so that Oil would stay until you had to fire it up put sae30 mixed half-and-half with hyper lube and it seem to work quite well. Take the engine up to about 2500 for half an hour. Make sure you got good spark advancement.
I think I knew what you meant. I do have to tell you that Hyper Lube is not a suitable engine break-in additive, but I’m glad it has worked for you. A break in oil will be a non detergent type with a very high ZDDP content. There are likely other special additives as well, but those are the important factors I’m aware of.
Hmm i have a flat tappet in my turbocharged squarebody they are fine WHEN broken in properly. I also have roller setups but they're not necessary.
Please refer to my last two videos about this engine. It was built as properly as it could be, it was broken in as properly as it could be, and it failed anyway. It’s the first time this has happened to me after doing this many times, but I am far from the only one. That is the entire point of this discussion.
I was told that the force of driving the oil pump shaft does push the cam rearward
I’ve read that, and then I’ve read about people installing roller cams with buttons even, and watching the entire timing cover flex out and the spark timing dance around as the engine is revved. That’s not good.
First off I am going to back Jamie on every point he made on cams and expense. In my opinion the cam is the heart of the motor. The heart fails so does the motor. Now some say the oil pump is the heart because it pumps stuff like a heart so I will agree to some degree. How ever the cam makes the engine do what it's intended to do. Live damit! Jaime and I have had countless talks about this issue and I even talked with Tom at rocket. There is no easy way to say this but there are really only 2 cam grinders in the US. There are several lifter manufacturers and where comp fails is budget lifters. The cams are ok for the most part. I did almost cry when comp bought lunati a few weeks ago. I was like noooooo😢 will lunati be squeezed out so comp rules the market. Will isky be the last big dog. So if comp is the Walmart cam what choice will we have. It's all to much for this old ass engine builder to contemplate. So what Jamie said is true roller is not the cure but a option. Flat tapit cams are just fine for most engines. Remember the heart of the engine is the cam. No one ever said to there cardiologist can I get the budget heart by pass. Ponder that for a minute. 😅
I guess we need to protect Isky at all costs. Maybe if we’re lucky having Lunati folded in with Comp will make them better, not the other way around - but I won’t hold my breath. I completely believe that the problem I had was with the lifters, not with the camshaft itself. It was pretty obvious that problems started after the lifters had disintegrated to the point that they stopped spinning. A roller cam is a great thing… but I couldn’t see spending another $1500-2000 on my shed built 360, you know? The budget was, like, nothing.
I use driven engine assembly grease on cam shaft lobes also yr lifters use oil only in bores and lifter must slide in hole easy if nit might have to brake hone a little
I didn’t use Driven brand grease on this one, but otherwise all of that was done here.
I believe David Vizard says a flat Tappet can build better power at low speed. I might be mistaken, it’s been a while. Everything’s changed since flat tappets. Even the oil. How many unexperienced enthusiasts know what kind of oil to run on a flat Tappet cam? I didn’t know until a few years ago. I’ve had a flat Tappet fail. What a mess.
I have to agree. I didn’t discuss the type of oil we use at all in this video series - and I know that because a bunch of people said I probably wasn’t using the right oil. I think Joe Gibbs Driven break in oil qualifies as the right oil… It seemed like the kind of thing that was so basic I didn’t need to say as much, but it really isn’t. As far as the performance difference at low speeds for a given lift or duration spec on flat vs roller, I can’t say.
I figured you did since you do engine rebuilds and understand different cams but thought I’d throw it out there for everyone. I’m just and amateur.
Will never go flat tappet again to meny problems with bad lifters wiped out to meny cams in last couple years but I have gotten bad rollers as well
Yeah that’s the thing… the roller can also have problems, and costs way, way more. There are ways to get usable flat tappet parts, and many precautions that can be taken. I’m going to keep doing that.
For my engines I do flat were I can check everything twice but for customers I do rollers cause you only get paid once and people don't like to wait anymore they want there car back before you even start
Ahh yes. The benefits of being a smallblock guy lol. Roller swap in comes the Magnum Engine. Done 😅
Bingo!
What are you using for break in oil?? Just an additive or a full on break in oil???
Joe Gibbs break in oil on this one… on other engines, I have used Valvoline Race, or Kendall GT-1 (both high zinc oils) plus Lucas break in additive - with no problems.
It seems, with all the "roller cam is the only option" gang, I'm not either A. Earning enough to do this kind of thing, or 2. back to being poor...which is kind of the same thing. Really, I think it's the trend of "you didn't spend your $$ on a cam? You must not be a serious hot rodder." taking over the hobby.
Kind of. I don’t know if it’s just to be trendy necessarily, and it is an answer to a big problem that many of us are dealing with. I just don’t accept it as the only answer. Hot rodding is supposed to require ingenuity, and budget builds are highly emblematic if that. I just want to voice my opinion in response to that argument and remind people that the roller shouldn’t be the one way.
Still waiting to find me a affordable set of magnum performance wrinkle coat finish aluminum valve covers..
The roller cam is only done once vs more than once for the flat tappet cam not to mention the extra work. Also a roller cam with the same specs will give you more power because you get more under the curve. if the cam companies used the materials necessary the make flat tappet cams live, the cost would be up to the roller cost. NASCAR used flat tappets back in the day but they were very expensive because of the materials used to make them live. For the most part stock engines can live with a flat tappet cam. But when you up the performance with higher lift, bigger valves, stiffer springs. It's a recipe for failure. All my engines have rollers, I only have to do it once.
Have you heard of DLC lifters? Apparently Comp has figured out a way to make flat tappets live, and it doesn’t begin to approach the cost of a roller conversion. Barring that, you make some fine points, but I basically explained my take on all of them in this video.
@@DeadDodgeGarage DLC is a band aid fix, it's not a fundamental fix. If you wipe out enough cam lobes and lifters, the engine has to be torn down. Also with the low spring pressure needed for flat tappet cams to live, you can drop a valve at high rpm, now you tearing down the engine again.
Im putting a roller in my 79 la 360 and found i have to elongate the pushrod holes but i dont know how much, have any ideas? Cam is 485 gross lift
I just heard Uncle Tony talking about that in his video about putting Chevy valvetrain stuff on a small block Mopar. I have never done it myself.
You summed it up when comparing prices and saying "but they fail" what good is the price comparison when the parts are junk? and not only do you have to buy more parts to replace the failed junk but you have to double or triple your workload pulling the engine disassembly etc? so the price comparison isn't really valid as you can easily double it for flat tappet in the event of a failure plus all the extra work involved.....
Don’t buy a comp, deal with a local cam grinder. It literally costs half as much and yields much better results. Or find an NOS unit. Roller lifters fail too. I do believe I made all of these points in this video.
@@DeadDodgeGarage under the premise of a much cheaper price which if or when the flat tappet junk fails, you have to do it all over again and then you just doubled your costs and labour.... also I didn't hear you mention local cam grinder in the video?
Inspect every lifter face for crown, measure every lobe for taper, use driven assembly gel, use driven break in oil.
2000-2500 rpm for 25 minutes…. Dont mess up your initial timing
I have just never had any luck getting the timing right beforehand. I don’t know why. I used the Driven assembly goop the second time around. I used their break in oil the first time. I have learned in all of this that it’s not enough to simply make sure the lifters have a crown, which is what I did the first time. I’ve built and broken in many engines and have never had this problem before.
@@DeadDodgeGarage i just broke in my 493 at competition wedge engines in central square NY.
I had a long talk with the owner, who I’ve known for about 13 years now about this subject.
He’s convinced the epidemic is caused bad quality control / machining.
There have been a cpl bigger named guys now do hardness tests on large samples of different products (even wiped stuff) and found them to be acceptable in that regard. So heat treatment seems not to be the issue.
You used the best lube products on the market, so i would rule out the oil in your case.
You used a stock ish cam and mild springs, so I would rule that out..
So to me… i would ask did you measure every lobe for correct taper? And did every lifter have enough crown for the cam?
Secondly did you prime the engine? And how long was cranking for the timing session?
Did every lifter spin freely?
The cam epidemic surprises me actually…. Cause years ago I’ve done some total shit first start, and no break ins… and been fine.
Good luck brother
I have an engine that has been on the stand for months..Using the little packet of grease supplied with the cam back then..Starting to finish it up and you look down through the holes to see the cam and the cam is totally dry..that lube is gone..evaporated or dripped off the cam..Just wondering if I can squirt some oil through the lifter bores to get them wet again..
Oil by itself really isn’t going to do what you want. I honestly think this may be a big part of what happened to this engine. It sat for months after I built it, and that red lube runs off before long. I think in your position, I would pop the lifters back out and lubricate the faces and what you can reach of the lobes with something that is going to stay there. Assembly lube? Lunati cam lube? Something like that.
I've replaced sets of lifter and just used motor oil plenty of times. In the case of an engine that hasn't been running in years, I like to drain the oil pan and then refill by pouring in the oil as quickly as possible (using a large funnel and 5qt jug) in an attempt to douse the cam and lifters with engine oil prior to 1st start.
Because so many modern vehicles are overhead cam and those that aren't are roller cam engines. There aren't very many modern production engines- that use a flat tappet. The few that do have manufacturing facilities of their own, and buy large enough runs of material to get batches of material that fill their specs and at a price they can afford' that allows the foundry to make their money - making the proper alloy for the proper use- because everyone's happy.
When after market company's buy metal stock, they do not buy enough to make casting a small batch just for them- worth while- so the foundry has two options- make extra to off set the cost, just stuck holding it until it sells. Or you can make a harder or softer alloy and pass it off as what's being asked for.... you could forge something for two company's with different hardness ranges. One looking for a material on the softer side of the curve and one that starts about 1/2 way into the range of the first product but extends way past the maximum hardness of the alloy forged- oh well send it they won't know until it fails. Then they can't blame us we didn't know.
Interesting…
Is there a roller cam set up that would be close to the roadrunner or magnum cam for the 383 that you know of?
I’m sure one could be found, or ground. The specs may well end up a bit different to create a similar effective grind.
@@DeadDodgeGarage TY
I would roll the dice on another Racer Brown flat tappet, the mass market stuff? probably not.
Wait, are they still around?
Ever tried the Redline paste assembly lube?
Not yet!
What do you think about the new DLC coating from Comp Cams? Does it actually work.
I haven’t gotten to test the theory on that. I’ve heard it’s very good, but last time I checked, there were none available for Mopars yet.
Ok thank you
I hope I’m not correct but it looks like the cost of DLC coated lifters is $1900 for 16
@@mikecrawford5331 all I can say is… wow. That’s about 19 times too much.
I had a cam that went into several 440s ? Still running today
Nice. If it’s an old enough cam and lifters to have been in multiple engines, it’s probably old enough to be a lot better than the garbage we’ve got today.
Ive never had a problem using stock ratio rockers and stock springs.
Me neither.
If u are in Canada you have to be rich to run a roller so what I’m doing is building a stock motor with a few things done to it and I got another 440 that’s a better motor a 70 and I’ll take my time doing it because I have to scrounge up money for all the good parts that are a crazy price I’d like to go with Indy heads or eddys and the price of them alone here in Canada is a fortune
I have a purple but not sure the lifters are from the set I got a bunch of stuff Mopar parts for a great price everything to put a motor back together so I guess I’ll use the purple in the 74 block just so I have a running car for next summer I like it play it buy earalso I agree play it buy ear Thers lots of diff choices
I assemble all my engines with Lucas Dimensions can sit there for a year and they'll still be lubed with Lucas that stuff sticks to everything stuff that you don't even want it to stick to it sticks to
Well I have several new from the 1980 m p road runner cam packages still in the box also some newer 2012 comp cam as 2 new issue mp cam pkg 2017 road runner car grind I notice the lifters on these new cams look to be on cam side ground the cams from the 80 the base on the lifter is smooth night and day
I bet when I use these cams pkg from the 80 will have no problems iam scared to install the new cam pkgs
Yep… I would trust those old kits any day over the crap that is available now.
Roller cams need to be more aggressive, as flat tappets make the initial valve movement much quicker, bringing it from closed to quarter open much faster than a roller on the same cam profile. Personally, I prefer flat tappets - and manual adjusters, but I'm a masochist that way. But these days, flat tappets need to be scrutinized and measured carefully before installing, regardless of whether they're used or brand new and in the box. Too many new tappets seem to not be made properly (either not domed, or not hardened correctly), and it's no fun wiping out a brand spanking cam - and whatever else comes in contact with the swarf from that failure.
If it wasn’t obvious, I too prefer flat tappets - for more reasons than one. But you’re absolutely right - we can’t take for granted that new tappets will be good. I think the best solution is to make nice with the closest cam and lifter grinder that you can find, and have lifter faces checked and reground if necessary.
Before the big 3 embraced diesel. The big blocks your building powered big heavy motor homes for miles with zeroes into the unknown. With flat tappet cams. Everything mechanical is a compromise. Value to the consumer is a balance between cost, and reliability/longevity. Better becomes a subjective concept. Chrysler for sure made better parts than the aftermarket. It was their business.
Anyways since the magnum V8 318 doesn't have valetrain noise and chatter for now I left it alone!!!
I just had a flat tappet fail and I'll never run one again... they're junk. I don't like playing roulette with engine builds, ill be going roller from now on...
Ok so what brand POS cam did you buy? Was it a Comp, or literally any other shelf stocked camshaft? Deal with a local cam grinder, or don’t bother.
@@DeadDodgeGarage CROW CAMS IN AUSTRALIA claim they are USA but they're junk.
No rollers also have failures, as long as you get goid quality flat tappet and quality lifters and break in with liter springs and correct break in oil
Hey, that’s what I said! At least some of it.
I build a lot of flat tappet oval track engines have to use flat tappets so got a few things I do never hurt 1 in 20 years .
@@larryburns4605 I think at this point I've still only built around 50 engines, with almost all of them flat tappets. I have had exactly one failure - it just so happens to have been documented here in several videos.
I understand the quality issues and it's not fun keep on building like your videos
So rollers require more aftermarket parts just to have a the roller. Shit. Currently breaking down a '74 440 to put in a '55 dodge c1 truck with a 727 trans.
Exactly… it’s just not as easy as throwing it in there and calling it a day. Sounds like a cool project!
Use Driven Break In oil and cam grease 👍🇦🇺
Did. Well, not their assembly lube.
Only thing I've seen is comp cams using a hardened coating on their lifters.
Yes - I learned about that after this series of videos. I have not seen a DLC coated hydraulic Mopar lifter - yet.
Like the videos..I'm in the UK...now we don't generally have big blocks laying around..or even small blocks..they're quite hard to find and expensive..so ..we usually use the ex buick 215 aluminium v8...I've just installed a kent H218 cam in mine...got to say I was well nervous about the break in...it was stored for around 18months before I got it running..I used a product called graphogen paste...its black and very sticky..designed for coating all moving parts in any engine ..and ideal if your not going to start it for a while as it doesn't run off....there maybe a similar product on your side of the pond...its excellent for providing instant protection on cams and pistons....it then dissolves in to the oil...comes out at the fist oil change...
The Rover V8! I kind of know the history of those. I haven’t heard of graphogen but it sounds pretty ideal. I wonder if that’s similar to the engine assembly lube we have on the shelves here. It’s also black, sticky and gross.
,,that's what I've been trying to say,,,,Only Wilhelms own Chrysler equipment
Maybe Ford also. Never the other company
That’s an interesting theory. I don’t know enough Wilhelms to confirm it.
Caterpillar engine parts are the same way though too nowadays...and they still make them...but outsource them to be built in China now. Terrible quality control and in return...terrible life expectancy.
Ever heard of facing the lifters
If you mean having the faces re-machined for accuracy, yes.