Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 0:54 The Problem with Theories to Date 1:49 Level Setting on Timeline(s) 4:16 Theory Criteria 1 - Zack's Impact on Cloud & Sephiroth 7:25 Theory Criteria 2 - How Would Zack Meet the Party? 10:45 The Deepground Zack Theory 16:51 Outro & Info
I stumbled upon this late but some of the stuff here is inconsistent because the Japanese trailer for rebirth is slightly different. In the Japanese translation, cloud directly mentions Zack by name and his tone is very different as well
Love the theory. Mine is that Sephiroth is somehow aware of his own failures, and has undone Zack's death, and plans on doing things differently. Would Cloud have been able to defeat Sephiroth if he didn't feel obligated to do what Zack would do? Would Aerith be too distracted by being reunited with who she loved? If you change your opponents biggest growth point, do they grow?
FF7 remake plot takes place after original FF7 and movie Advent Children. Yes Sephiroth knows what happened in ff7 and this is ANOTHER Sephiroth from Advent Children (he also have his suit from the movie)
It didn't change anything though. I think because Sephiroth took them into the Singularity, they were protected from the changes to the timeline they brought about by killing the Whispers. Meaning they still have their original memories. I also think Sephiroth did this purposely to protect them as the changes could have erased them or changed them. Well more specifically he only did it to protect Cloud, the others just followed Cloud. He protected Cloud because he needs him for some reason. He made it a point throughout Remake that he needs Cloud's help for something nefarious.
I honestly think having all these zack teases in remake is just a super meta way of having the player base experience the fracturing of Cloud's mind and making is feel like all our memories are fake and that we don't knew what's real and what isn't
I love this theory a lot. And it works really well to keep Zack at bay till necessary. Something Max didn't mention (and will someday need to come to terms with) is the existence of Omega and Chaos since they are very much WEAPONS as well, and linked to the end of the world. Since Omega is linked to Weiss and Deepground, it wouldn't be far fetched to say Zack may have something to do with the end as well, and by default-- Genesis. Also, come to think of it, Zack was the first main character to come across Vincent in CC. The dynamics between those two is something I didn't know I wanted till now.
There is a war in my brain between cool fan service moments like this and wondering if it's actually best for the story. But a lot of people think the two will eventually team up.
@@paulsmith9192 No I haven’t. I just don’t create content until I have something that I think is worth making a video about. I’m actually finally editing my next video right now, in fact.
I completely agree with your sentiment that the Yuffie DLC definitely laid some groundwork for a new storyline. One of the biggest changes to Remake's story is the alliance between Wutai and Avalanche. Given's Zack's backstory of going to Wutai in CC (and meeting a 9 y/o Yuffie along the way), it makes perfect sense. As for what's going on with Zack, Nomura said something quite interesting. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that Zack is the key to the mysteries in FF7R. But what mysteries? There are several Sleepezi went over, but let me mention one oddity that seemingly no one has really picked up on. At the pillar, Cloud and the gang runs across a mortally wounded Biggs. Yet, at the end of Remake, you see Biggs recovering in the hospital in Sector 5. How is this possible? Even if we were to assume that he *didn't* die (though it's heavily implied), there is simply not enough time for someone to go in and rescue Biggs when the plate drop happens a very short time afterwards. You also see Sector 7 residents (like Marle, the landlady) rebuilding, which never happened in the original. It's quite evident that Zack's survival isn't the only thing that was changed in this new timeline. I hypothesize that FF7 Rebirth will have Zack going through Remake's story leading up to plate fall. It might have been Zack that initially saved Wedge (and rescued Biggs), and it may have also been Zack who left the President dangling off the cliff. This makes PERFECT sense as it was Shinra who ordered the hit squad that (nearly) killed him....
Interesting, though that would imply that Zack was doing all of these things in the same timeline as what we played as Cloud in Part 1 and BEFORE we beat Destiny and either remade the timeline or created a second one. I don’t think that’s possible though, since Zack’s survival seems to be a direct result of the party defeats Destiny. You do bring up a good point about moments not enough people talk about. WHY is President Shinra pushed through the window and left hanging from the ledge. I presumed because the Whispers did it. But why did they have to do it? Is it because Sephiroth was so preoccupied with Cloud this time that he didn’t go kill the President?
@@SubTXT_ One thing to keep in mind is that the timeline in Remake is separate and distinct than the FF7 OG storyline. There are differences (both big and small), and the writers went through great efforts to make you aware of the two timelines. Perhaps the red herring is to assume that Zack is dead in the Remake timeline because that what happened in the OG storyline. One small example, the time on the clock tower you see at the beginning of Remake has a different time than the one in OG FF7. There's also a calendar in Remake, which seems to place the events in Remake several MONTHS before the corresponding events in the OG FF7. Take a look at this: imgur.com/a/j4EXHRO
@@SubTXT_ if Zack was revived due to them beating Destiny, would he wake up from that point or from the point of when he was fighting the infantrymen. If it is the latter, he should have been able to follow behind. As for the whispers and Shinra... I always assumes they were trying to keep the peace with the original timeline. Kinda like when they tried to stop the group from going a certain way... Shinra was supposed to die but sephiroth was too busy so they had to do it.
Aa soon as I saw Zack was alive at the end of Remake, I automatically envisioned him making his entrance by parrying Sepheroth's sword away from Aerith, saving her. (The scene where she's supposed to die in)
As somebody who agrees with a Max a lot, mainly in how stupid some of the compilation characters are, this theory feels like a pretty good way to handle those stupid elements of the FF7 compilation. As Max has said before, Zack is a normal guy that has to deal with a bunch of weirdos, so throwing Zack in the middle of all the deepground stuff feels like a really good use of his character while not interrupting the main plot of the game too soon, and also making good use of the FF7 compilation stuff instead of just pretending they're not there.
This is a great examination with superb production levels. Thank you. I'm going to make a counter-argument but want to go out of my way first to make clear I highly respect and admire your videos from both an analytical and video production level. Effort appreciated. I mentioned in a comment on another of your videos that I'm in the Maximilian Dood dual-timeline camp. The premise you posit in this essay has only fortified my faith in the dual-timeline. The crux--so to speak--of the single-timeline theory you share with others rests on the assumption that Aerith is alive when Zack arrives at the church in Sector 5, post-InterMISSION, as though she's running around Kalm or beyond with the gang while Zack is on a mission to track her down. I'd argue that all signs (including the words of the devs) point to Zack being in an alternate timeline where Aerith is dead or--slim chance, but unlikely--injured and imprisoned by Shinra. You wrap up this video suggesting Zack and the rest of the Cloud team will eventually combine forces to shut down Sephiroth. That I 100% agree with. The only difference is I think there's going to be some spooky lifestream and/or Sephiroth magic timeline-merging BS in part III (that I will happily eat up) that accomplishes this. But the idea that Zack has become a part of the same physical existence as Cloud & gang after the demise of the plot ghosts, well . . . the end of base FFVIIR where Crisis-Core-Zack-and-Cloud ghosts past FFVIIR-Cloud-and-gang just doesn't jive with that.
@@TokenCast how exactly would you propose that work in a video game like final fantasy where you have a party ? Why would we need two party’s? And why would Zack being alive help the story ? It wouldn’t that’s the answer
@Stillhovering The same way it did in remake Zack is in a different area and all you do is get cut scenes of him in a different area. Didn't say you had to play him.
I love this theory. It’s very logical and considered and if this ends up happening I think it won’t interfere with the core story beats of the original as you mentioned. Awesome video 👏
This is a really sick theory. I'd be satisfied if this is how it turned out. I think having Nero and Weiss confirmed as the two soldiers that take Genesis's corpse away in Reunion lends credence to your theory a bit.
What if Cloud's group doesn't meet Yuffie, Cait Sith, Vincent, and Cid. Cloud already has his own "Five-Man Band" in himself, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII. So what if the other four characters instead end up become Zack's party members?
I wouldn’t be surprised. I kinda got the vibe that were not getting the full cast of party members. How’d they make them all playable in the same game as they joined our party ?
Finally, someone who believes in one timeline and doesn’t try to make my head hurt with the “two timelines with a bunch of differences”. I hope things stay not too complicated.
Lmao it's final fantasy that's like asking paint to dry faster or water to not get things wet , a convoluted storyline that hurts your brain is the final fantasy way 😂 I'm just glad the series isn't as convoluted as say a metal gear solid game is 😅
Just a point but Sephiroth could well use Zack's survival to mess with Cloud because there are now two Clouds in the timeline. The one with Zack and the one from the pre-destiny's crossroads timeline. Supposing he gets Cloud to think he is some sort of hybrid clone of the 'real' Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth. He knows Cloud stopped him in the original future only because Tifa put him back together. The existence of a 'real' Cloud might lead to her assuming him an impostor and thus prevent that.
Of course my big theory is that it was Cloud not Aerith that the whispers were trying to stop. Why? Because he is a time traveller too and has already knocked the original timeline off kilter (hence the subtle changes like an extra day here or there and the original version of Avalanche still being around) but by the start of remake they have already messed with his memory ... hence why he doesn't know he is from the future but also why he seems to have premonitions of aerith's death, the northern crater and plate fall during the game... they are memories. Also why his personality is a touch different - mushing his brain didn't completely erase his growth. Anyway the theory is that Future Cloud had already thrown stuff into chaos and the whispers are trying to get the future back on track as best they can. The other big thing here is that it seems like Zack arrives in Midgar after plate fall which makes no sense unless the events of remake take place about two weeks earlier than the original game... which works because iirc in OG Tifa finds mako poisoned Cloud, nurses him back to health over a couple of weeks then introduces him to Avalanche. In remake she met an apparently healthy Cloud and immediately roped him in. If this is true then the whispers were likely going to ensure not just Zack but also original Cloud died so future Cloud can be shoehorned into his place... of course they lost and that completely remade the timeline including some changes that aren't down to Cloud which may or may not be important
Yeah, I've really been trying to figure out what they would do with the 2nd Cloud if there is simply one remade timeline, and Sephiroth using that to convince him of his "clone existence" is a really fascinating possibility that makes sense.
It’s possible that Zach is in a chamber and everything is in his mind, in deep ground. Just like they took Genesis they also probably took Zach. Although that would make sense since we never knew where his dead body went.
Thanks TH-cam Reccomendations for the great Reccomendations. I am officially the 223 Like , 108 Comment , & 116 New Subscriber. Keep up the great work every single day that you can do so.
Another great video! Just from the title I knew this theory would resonate with me. Ever since I saw the end of Intermission I've had similar thoughts to what you have outlined here. I know many people don't want to see any more of Deepground but I feel like now that they've been included, it'd be weird of Shinra to have in reserve this elite force and never use it, specially now that there are no 1st class soldiers around. I think that the scene of Nero pulling Sonon's corpse into the darkness implies that Deepground will have an involvement with the possible Wutai storyline. There's gotta be some payoff to the whole early encounter between Yuffie and Nero imo . Asides from that, I also agree that Zack's journey could be a way to explore lore and story beats that wouldn't perhaps mesh particularly well with the OG story. I don't think he will spend the majority of Rebirth in Deepground, but I do think he will spend quite a bit of time in Midgar before embarking on his own journey, either to catch up to the party or try to solve a new side of the whole conflict that is unique to FF7R. Perhaps, as you said, he meets Genesis in Deepground, who then will lead him out of Midgar on a chase, not unlike what Sephiroth is doing with Cloud and the others. Either way it is only logical that he will first have to get his bearings on the current situation, what happened with Aerith and co, etc., and he can only do that by spending time in the city. While I personally don't dread or dislike Zack meeting early with the party, it would certainly be better to use Rebirth as a space for both stories to develop properly first and build up momentum, emotion and anticipation for the eventual climatic reunion (sorry) that way. Having said that, I'm expecting Zack to have an important role and therefore becoming playable at some point in Rebirth, because I honestly can't see them creating a compelling narrative for his side with only randomly placed cutscenes every now and then. Still, I'm extremely hyped and eager to see what will go down with him. Thanks again for the amazing content to help satiate our thirst for FF7R content and discussions! (Also sorry for the length of this comment t-t).
Super interesting thoughts and I agree. Another though I had AFTER posting this video is that I could even see him getting caught up with the larger Avalanche organization. There are so many possibilities. But starting with Midgar as the basis of his story seems like a sure bet considering that's where he is, where he believes Aerith is, and perhaps safer than heading back to his hometown (which he tried to do at the end of Crisis Core).
@@SubTXT_ I could totally see that happening! We could get more Avalanche info and the reveal of a certain president's involvement. Either way, I'll be patiently waiting for your next video, SubTXT! I can't thank you enough for vocalizing these ideas that perhaps many have pondered but haven't exactly found the way to communicate.
As for the Part 2 ending, your point is a great choice. I was thinking just before this, with the Weapons flying off, or THAT SCENE... yes, THAT scene, but yes, the reveal of Meteor would be a very epic cliffhanger.
Supposing that there is a singular "remade" timelime wherein Zack's fate is different, the most likely path for him in Rebirth is not to retread the path of the party from Remake, but to follow the path of the party in Rebirth. He could very easily be directed in Aerith's direction in any number of ways that don't need a massive amount of explanation. If he has a major role in the game it very well might be in pursuit of the party, trying to reach Aerith before the pivotal moment (which he doesnt know is coming, but we do). Ppl suggest he could form his own party, either of FF7 companions or characters who survived or were changed by the new timeline, and anything's possible, but it would be more true to the original to keep the main party together, and it would be very cool to get some Crisis Core moments of Zack in combat on his own (with his randomized DMW limit breaks) thrown in as interludes alongside the main storyline. It would be a very manageable story structure for him to pass through areas the party has already been, while keeping it not entirely clear whether they actually share the exact same timeline or not until/unless they reach the same place. Dunno where they would decide to go from there though. Aerith's death might have to happen, not just for the story but she may need to enter the lifestream for the world to survive, but by that same token so should Zack's death have needed to happen for any of the other events to unfold, so Rebirth and it's new timeline could change some important things. Zack could show up in time to sacrifice himself for Aerith, or he could get there too late, and/or he could be revealed to actually be on a different timeline than our party, but to what end I don't know. If they want to really fuck with our expectations, Cloud could die instead of Aerith and Zack arrives to take his role in the party, but then the rest of the story would change dramatically. Him joining the established party would not be a difficult hurdle at all; a new person filling in a lost friend's role in a group is just a source of drama and conflict, exactly what makes stories interesting. The more important problem with that is Cloud's pivotal role in events and how Zack couldnt fill in for that, so someone else would have to. Or just how pissed off people would be. Regardless, in order to introduce Zack to FF7's story in a significant way it would have major ramifications for how events unfold, since Zack's entire existence is such a huge plot twist and a large part of the impetus for breaking Cloud down.
I would personally despise Zack effectively “replacing” Cloud as the main character (in the event of a Cloud death), but it’s possible. What I think is even more possible is Sephiroth’s puppetry of Cloud being even more extreme. I definitely see the party maybe having to fight a Sephiroth-controlled Cloud at some point. (I think it could be the final boss battle of Rebirth)
Dude... This is certainly a large piece of the puzzle. Been watching as many theory videos as I can and this is Sleepezi quality. My thoughts: Sephiroth WANTED the timeline alteration, and Zack surviving is the primary difference. How does this benefit him? I think Sephiroth will introduce them at the worst possible time for Cloud's sanity to gain more than just the black materia. Also the remake of Crisis Core hints at a Dirge remake. The creators said the Remake project is uniting the whole compilation so maybe part of the Rebirth twist is Sephiroth is after Omega to ride the universal life stream. Zack could be warring against Deep ground/Genesis until they are lured to the Northern crater for the reunion. Not clear on the details but Minerva might use Genesis as a general of sorts to launch the weapons in order to purge the planet of life and summon Omega. Also the white feather indicates Angeal might be involved in this Reunion too. Can't wait for Reunion to see what the next teasers are. I'm really excited to see how they tie this all together.
Thanks for the Sleepezi comparison. I think that's far too kind, but thank you. You may be on to something. I certainly think Zack will be used MUCH differently than most people assume.
Oh and one more thing came to me on the drive home. If Zack goes to Sector 5 looking for Aerith, he'll HAVE to pass the Leaf house. No way that sword is going unnoticed. And who's at the leaf house... Avalanche. Any survivors from plate fall are there and Avalanche will be playing a great role going forward.
Sephiroth was also one of the cleverest people on the planet if he couldn't break Cloud in order to make him to what he wants he would just think of another way
Thrilled to have found you. I don't get much out the typical reaction video. I need at least 10 minutes of somebody's thoughts that have stewed for a while then get distilled into an essay format.
And I'm thrilled to have you. I'm working on my next one now, but not sure when EXACTLY that I will have it done. But I noticed some dialogue in the original game that *puts on tinfoil hat* seems to have some relevance to the vents of Remake ;)
Man that would be interesting. Especially since Midgar assets are already made. It would be much easier to create story content for that if they were to use Zack that way. Though I still absolutely HATE that they ruined the identity crisis plot-twist, my favorite part of OG FFVII. Cloud's identity crisis and Tifa helping him find himself is beautiful & so relatable. But they already ruined that with FFVIIR and then especially with releasing Crisis Core Reunion before pt2-3. I truly hope that whatever they have cooking was worth ruining, in my opinion, the best and most relatable part of OG FFVII.
Yeah, this video -- and it's kind of clear in how I set it up -- is my coping mechanism for how to maintain the identity crisis. But now, many months removed from making this and post-CCR release, it's pretty clear that they are definitely spoiling that reveal early. I think they may still mess with "what's up with Cloud exactly" for new players who play Crisis Core and KNOW the history and how it conflicts with the way Cloud tells it in Kalm. But it won't have the same impact. They are shifting the mystery toward whatever is going on with Zack...
I finished crisis core reunion the other day and there are some loose ends they could tie up. Zack’s only allies are the Turks. Would Tseng, Reno, Rude and Cisseni aid Zack by filling him in on what he missed. If Zack replaces Cloud would he get involved in avalanche? Would Cloud recover and help Zack? It opens a whole Pandora’s box of questions
I was ready to dismiss this theory going in, but after actually hearing you out, you've got some compelling points here. It even got me to reasonably reconsider a few additional details you didn't mention. For example, the question of how there are two Clouds (and presumably two of the other party members). Well, maybe there just... isn't. Perhaps upon the party snapping back to reality, their alternate selves cease to be. From Zack's perspective, he sets his comatose buddy down in a hotel room or wherever, and when he returns Cloud just isn't there. From Elmyra's perspective, neither she nor Aerith ever met Cloud or the AVALANCHE members, but Aerith *did* suddenly disappear one day, and the only reasonable culprit is Shinra. Et cetera. Sure, we see Zack and Cloud pass by the party, but unless they'd both decided to chill in the desert for multiple weeks instead of going to Midgar, it makes more sense for that to be a moment from this new past than for it to be a simultaneous alternate timeline. Unfortunately, there are nevertheless plot points that seem incongruent with the concept of a single timeline: Unless we are to somehow believe that the Sector 7 disaster didn't occur in this changed timeline (which clearly can't be the case for many obvious reasons) then how could the members of AVALANCHE have survived the events of either bombing run without Cloud (and potentially without Jessie, their explosives expert) long enough to convince Shinra to drop the plate in the first place? How did the neighborhood citizens of Sector 7 survive for us to witness them rebuilding if Aerith wasn't there to push Wedge into taking action for the evacuation? Most importantly, how would Marlene even be alive, much less under the care of Elmyra? Moreover, why have Intermission show us Yuffie's perspective from the original timeline if those events and her memory of them were going to change anyway? And, crucially, through what possible reasoning would other key characters, such as the Turks, remember their encounters with the party? It would seem really funky to establish this group rivalry and then have them not even know who the protagonist is in the next game. The only non-party characters I could potentially see remembering the original timeline are ones who have been given a glimpse into the Lifestream. In other words, either those touched by Aerith through her Cetra magic (Marlene) or those eventually touched by Sephiroth through Geostigma (Rufus, presumably). In any case, that still doesn't solve most of the aforementioned questions. If anybody can think of better answers, I'd be thrilled to hear them, as this whole theory is fascinating and would be a great way to use Zack in the story, even if I am skeptical about the single timeline aspect.
After thinking about it a bit longer, I've come to the conclusion that, assuming the single timeline theory is true, then the answer to how any of the bombing runs or plate drop occurred is "don't think about it" and the answer to how Marlene survived is that Aerith, even in this altered timeline, likely heard from the planet that she needed to go save Marlene. The other questions still don't quite add up though, far as I've figured.
Theorizing about this damn Remake is a hellish torment haha. I don’t have answers to all your points. One odd thing about the destroyed Sector 7 is that I have stated at the Seventh Heaven signs in both Chapter 13 and the end cinematic and they look different. Unless it’s a trick of the light, one seems brown and the other seems green. And in the end version, you can see the start of the “V” in SEVENTH and everything after E looks gone in the Chapter 13 version. What’s even more maddening: even if the signs are different, it’s impossible to say whether that confirms single or dual timelines. They have got us really twisting and turning. I hope they stick the landing.
8:29 i don't think so. Sephiroth taunts cloud twice about these 7 seconds. There foreshadowing this for people who don't know, and hanging a lantern on it for people who do. This is very definitely going to be a drama between cloud and sephiroth (however it plays out) and I don't think Zack will be in a position to intervene.
I just want 2 things from the continuation 1. At least some more love for zack anything would be fine he has been through so much I hope he gets something good happened to him 2. Less tifa aerith shipping I already didn't like the shipping of the 2 girls with each other and the shipping fuel that some scenes had I would love to see aerith and zack to get back together and for cloud and tifa to end together but that is just what i want
.... oooh oh .... YES! this was my theory from like the second month after release. the B-plot - the new stuff was Sephiroth "remaking" the timeline through the FATE WEAPONS power and the whispers doing all in their power to stop it. IN the singularity sephiroth absorbed them and had control for the entire fight - after Cloud strikes him down, Cloud gets 7 seconds to change things as well. 1. Cloud knows Zacks circumstances of death 2. Cloud knows Biggs death 3. Cloud knows why Jessie even came back to Midgar - he saves her father from his accident. these are the changes Cloud made. this I theorized long before intergrade. but what did Sephiroth change? I believe first off that he killed Aerith before her enlightenment at the temple of the ancients - in Midgar even. which is why Zack doesn't find her in the church. I also think that there existing two Clouds will be important to further Sephiroths plan.
When you play the original game, there are “reports” in the Shinra mansion basement. It says that the Mako treatment had no impact on Zack (the SOLDIER sample) because he has already been exposed during the SOLDIER process, but Cloud was very much effected. Cloud was essentially put through the process that they use on SOLDIERS. That’s why he does have SOLDIER abilities in FF7 and people believe he’s one.
I like this theory as well. I might get some hate for saying this: but I could see Genesis being the main antagonist (as well as all of Deepground) for Rebirth. Also, how the Yuffie DLC was parallel to the 1st game; they could do a DLC of a shortened version of Dirge of Cerberus parallel to Rebirth.
Some issues I've been having with a merged timeline is, what happened to the Cloud Zack was carrying? Maybe he died though, and the other duplicate characters also died in different ways. This could lead to other events to not have happened in this new timeline, like the plate falling. What they will do with Zack I have no idea, I feel like there's little pay off in him just joining the party. Feels like fan service in that case. Having his own side story will also probably mean they need to cut other content, which I am not a big fan of. I'm thinking Zack will simply be a mystery puzzle for the players to solve what happened, maybe making a bigger entrance in game3. All holes due to timelines etc I fear will simply not explain and players have to just accept it haha
Most who believe the single "remade" timeline theory tend to think that souls are singular elements in the world and hence can only exist within one body. In that case, it is possible that the versions of characters from the Terrier timeline die at some point. For example, Zack eventually realizes that the Cloud he's carrying has died or dies shortly after reaching Midgar. That may be who Zack is talking to in the trailer when he says, "Sorry, feel like I failed you." (realizing Cloud is dead). Which means Zack may think Cloud is dead and Cloud may think Zack is dead - making their inevitable meeting quite a crazy moment. The others may have died in the plate fall or some other moments in that remade timeline. Multiple timelines are definitely much cleaner for solving that, but introduce other issues (If there are potentially infinite timelines, then why does it matter how things play out in any one timeline?) Either way, your second paragraph was a big part of the reason I made this video. There is definitely a fun "shack factor" for fans in terms of seeing him live - either in our timeline or an alternative timeline - but I have struggled for two years to see any satisfying way to utilize him.
@@SubTXT_ Yeah I know what you mean.. I'm worried there will be an initial wow factor but when things sink in and you analyze it, you will feel it's stupid. Honestly, most stuff people write about what they think will happen are SO stupid haha.. Are they throwing away the whole "You're my living legacy" thing for example? So yeah, I'm a bit worried why they are doing what they are doing tbh. But I have to remain hopeful. There's so much mystery that I don't think anyone has a good idea what's actually going on
Great theory, ideas like this are always fascinating to follow. What I have been pondering is at the end of remake during that final cutscene when Clouds party and Zack with his Cloud "cross paths" how will that come into play? Since this will likely be bring some type of new timeline into play, what is going to occur between the original timeline Cloud and the still comatosed Cloud that Zack is taking into Midgar? I think that could be a good entry point for the parties to cross paths. Perhaps Zack gets breadcrumbs from people in Midgar/the surviving Avalanche members that leads Zack on a quest to find this "other Cloud" ultimately having the parties meet during the events of Mideel? The "Rebirth" being the 2 Clouds meeting during that time while "sorting out" his memories. IDK, I know I'm focusing on a completely different aspect of what this theory is predicting just something I've been stuck on.
If Sephiroth's goal of breaking Cloud's mind is the same in Remake as in OG, what better way to break his brain than have Cloud come face to face with a copy of himself? Could mess up Cloud even more. There are so many possibilities...
Looking forward to more Zack action. I wouldn't mind if the game alternated gameplay segments between Zack and the main party somehow, or perhaps just showed us Zack cutscenes intermittently.
@@SubTXT_ LOVE that game! Hopefully they can offer some fan service as well as give Zack something interesting (and important) to do -- perhaps even adding some character to him?
@@ty_sylicus he really needs some added characterization. I know people love him, but I always thought he was a bit one-dimensional. I actually did think his portrayal at the end of the DLC - despite being a very short scene - had some hints of dimension.
I bet they throw a plot element where Zach has some type of head trauma/amnesia from either jumping timelines or from the damage from all the shinra attackers. So when we first meets cloud again he’s not fully there and you have to help him
I really do think Aerith and Zack have to ultimately die at one point whether both sacrifice themselves at the end of Part 3 maybe to save Cloud and the rest. Aerith Zack and Sephiroth will die and with that comes the end of FFVII.
I’ve wondered if the holy materia needs more energy to work so the sacrifice of a loving willing person activates it. Just how the black materia needed all the energy of the promised land to summon meteor. Sephiroth killing Aerith unwittingly helped her activate holy against him but if they change the timeline and she lives, holy won’t activate. So she chooses to die to unleash holy against him later. Just thinking….
I think Sephiroth is trying to be buddy buddy with Cloud, not only because Cloud remembering Sephiroth more makes Sephiroth stronger, but also I think it's because he's trying to have full control over Cloud to be on his side. Zack will take Cloud's place in remake and eventually it will be mind controlled Cloud vs Zack and perhaps it will be Cloud that kills Aerith this time.
I definitely think Cloud will become more fully controlled by Sephiroth than JUST a vehicle for the Black Materia. I was replaying Remake again recently and it really hit home how much Sephiroth is obsessed with his strength and Cloud getting stronger. If it is a future Sephiroth, he knows that Cloud is the only one who can defeat him so why take control of him only momentarily? Instead use his body as your host. At that point, who could defeat the "reborn" Sephiroth?
Wutai will be a huge part of Rebirth, they're playing up the war too much, it's not going to be optional anymore, will probably be the biggest expansion of story in part 2.
I have absolutely no doubt Wutai will be a big part of the story and mandatory. I'm just not 100% sure it'll be in Rebirth. It's very possible considering they've covered so much related to Wutai, but technically it's quite the deviation from all of the story ground they have to cover if they are trying to get, for example, all the way to the crater in the next game.
@@SubTXT_ The earliest you can complete Yuffie's sidequests is just after Rocketown, and the way the monsters and bosses are leveled, that's when you're expected to go. You can leave it right there in Rebirth as the biggest new addition to the story, right before you head back to Gold Saucer.
@@SubTXT_ I also think that even if they do change the sequence of events around, it still makes more sense for it to be in Rebirth, especially if Rebirth ends at Northern Crater, because noone is gonna give a crap about the war once Meteor is summoned.
Yup, I got you. Don’t know if you can post links on TH-cam, so if it doesn’t work, just Google “reddit rollakud final fantasy 7 remake timeline” link: www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/hpiheb/final_fantasy_7_remake_timeline/?
I think once we all beat Crisis Core Reunion and see the ending then we’ll have an understanding of Zack’s involvement in FF7 Remake and the rest of the series. Have a read seen some tweets saying that reunion is a prequel to FF7R opposed to FF7(OG) which is interesting. So we’ll definitely have more to go on once we see the ending of Crisis Core Reunion. I bet money that game will have an extended ending tied to FF7R & the rest of the series. Calling it now lol
Yeah, it is very strange how they're setting it up though. On the one hand, they're saying it's a prequel setup to FF7 Remake, but also saying it's very much unchanged (unlike Remake). They even said that if they changed it, there would be no point to the changes in Remake. So I'm not sure if CC Reunion will give us any answers or clues. I think they just want to refresh our memory on Zack's journey since it'll probably be part of his journey in Rebirth.
Now that Crisis Core is important enough in context of the remake to be rereleased, I'm now starting to think the red gradient in the logo is definitely alluding to Genesis returning and thematically speaking, he never became the hero he wanted to be and secondly it gives him a chance at a redemption arc that could overlap with Cloud and crews motives (maybe even Zack's crew). I think it fits with the Rebirth title in so many ways and bringing Genesis back would be as much of a shake up as Biggs/Zack being alive and Aerith potentially already dead in another timeline if not just held captive in Shinra HQ.
I definitely think there will be Genesis nods or references in some way - potentially in Zack's side of the journey - but I'm not sure that's what the title is about. My gut is that it's still about Sephiroth. In the OG, Sephiroth talked in the Temple of the Ancients about being "reborn as a god over this planet." Part 2 can be about his full Rebirth (not just puppeteering clones)
@@SubTXT_ Sephiroth is so obvious to all of us including you and I which is why I think much like Aerith's death, it might be a just a narrative tool to eventually subvert our expectations much in the way Whispers changed up a LOT more during the raid on Shinra HQ (Barret dying, encounter with President Shinra, Wedge's fate being up in the air, etc.). Should be interesting since we now are truly in unknown territory on what happens especially everybody is probably right lol.
worth noting the in Crisis Core Reunion, the whispers are shown to be present at Nibelheim, as Sephiroth and Cloud both emit gray when they impale each other. This was not present in the original game, but added for Reunion.
Interesting takes. But I gotta wonder, according to the proposed singular timeline theory, if our Team Avalanche ends up exiting the singularity back to a timeline where the past has changed and Zack is now alive, then would that mean we're now accepting the possibility of two Cloud's, two buster swords, and potentially two Aerith's, white materia's, Tifa's, Barret's, and Red's now existing in the same time frame concurrently? And if there's two Cloud's, how would your theory account for what Cloud #2 would be up to during all this?
This has been the biggest hole in the single timeline theory for sure. I didn't come up with the single timeline theory, but I have seen some deep dives in which it makes sense given both the lore of the world and some evidence. The consensus among those who believe it is that souls are singular elements in the world and hence can only exist within one body. In that case, it is possible that the versions from the Terrier timeline either died at some point. For example, Zack eventually realizes that the Cloud he's carrying has died or dies shortly after reaching Midgar. That may be who Zack is talking to in the trailer when he says, "Sorry, feel like I failed you." (realizing Cloud is dead). Which means Zack may think Cloud is dead and Cloud may think Zack is dead - making their inevitable meeting quite a crazy moment. The others may have died in the plate fall or some other moment in that timeline. Multiple timelines are definitely much cleaner for solving that, but introduce a lot of other issues such as consequentiality and such. If there are potentially infinite timelines, then why does the way things play out in any one matter in the long run?
@@SubTXT_ I appreciate you taking the time to respond and to attempt to fill in some of the holes at play here along the way. Don't worry. Regardless of whether I agree with any of this or not, It's not my intention to rebut any of your claims or ideas in this space. I was just genuinely curious about what your thoughts were as it pertained to the issue. Thanks for sharing!
@@dml1765 All good. We're all just trying to crack the code. What I think is most exciting is that I have yet to see a bulletproof theory out there, mine included. Which means that they are going to surprise ALL of us with whatever it is we are going to get.
My theory for cloud's mind still being broken is after trying to find aerith in sector 5, he decided to take cloud somewhere he believed he would be safe, in this case, the sector 7 Station, he gives a small speech to cloud and gives him the buster sword, and then leaves (maybe to gongaga), of course zack wouldn't know tifa was in sector 7 at the time, considering she would have found cloud (at least in the og timeline) at the station,
Zack looked healed by the time he went to go find Aerith, so we can assume some days have passed at the very least. Cloud would've already been in a relatively healthy state at this point, so he wouldn't have forgotten that Zack is alive (when Zack died in the original, cloud was well enough to make his way to midgar on his own just after that night of Zack fighting).
1- zack wouldn't leave cloud alone like that even if the place was "safe" 2- I remember he said that they both were going to be mercenaries in midgar during the ride in the yellow truck
I think this has more weight than anyone is thinking about. Having just beat crisis core, something I never thought about on remakes play through... The Turks we're looking for Zack and Tseng wanted him alive. Can't say for sure what that's for... But I also remember watching a playthrough of Before Crisis and part of the game the Turks recruited Azul(I believe... Been a long time tbh). But we already know Turks scout Soldier, def possible that's part of their scopes of responsibility. Especially taking into account the secrecy, makes sense. Also taken into account the ending with Genesis, and I believe DoC had a secret ending. Zack and Genesis story tied more into deep ground than we may realize. Factoring in a lot of the Project S and project G stuff leading into Doc. It almost feels like these two stories were supposed to be more connected from the beginning. Also, the genesis clones in CC look like a red version of the Deep Ground soldiers. I think it may be farfetched... But what if Zack becomes conditioned into a higher tier DG soldier like Azul(aren't they like brainwashed or something... A lot of BC, and DoC is fuzzy). But it could be Zack is an enemy when they first meet the group.
It's an interesting and realistic belief of where he would go. But I have a thing to add to it... in BC, the Zirconiade is summoned while Zack is dead and before Cloud is found by Tifa. That's between September and before October 5th. The biggest events of BC occur during that time period. Furthermore, the Zirconiade is fought in a pocket dimension, also translate-able as a singularity. It's depicted as a black ball shaped cloud in the sky over sector 5. Also, the official timeline for remake in the world preview also includes two December entries. December 12th, the first reactor bombing run begins. December 12th, the Turks in exile kill Jade weapon in Icicle Inn.
Also, I believe the effect Zack had on remake itself is that Zack was the first change made.. it's the same whispers shown in the key art for Sephiroth, the same four that bug Aerith, the same four in cloud's room as Sephiroth's voice tells him to sleep, and it's the same four that keep Cloud's party alive during the chase, and the same four participate on Sephiroth's behalf in the singularity after the whispers as a whole are defeated. The same four that follow the enigmatic whisper, which is hued the same color as Sephiroth and Jenova's "evil". I believe Zack is the first change to the events of remake, and the explosion of the singularity and the Arbiter throughout time solidified it. In dirge, the whispers around the Shinra building is described as happening daily ever since something happened that hasn't been specified.
The idea that Zack has no reason to go to Northern Crater is completely omitting the relevance of other major characters such as Angeal, Genesis and even Kunsel. All of these characters know about the anomaly (Minerva) that exists deep in the northern crater. And Angeal and Genesis are on the side of the Planet, and can likely exist in the Lifestream with spirit bodies due to their Jenova inherited abilities. Also, the Deepground Zack theory is also heavily flawed, because the devs have already revealed what Genesis did after being picked by Weiss and Nero. Genesis did not stay in Deepground because of his born again SOLDIER honor. Genesis made a vow to the Planet/Minerva that he would be its guardian, and the Planet accepted. Genesis declines Weiss's request to help in their rebellion, and Genesis left Deepground on his own and sealed himself away until the Planet summoned him. Ultimately, Genesis is on the side of the Planet/Minerva. He will not be a villain in Rebirth, but he will definitely be connected to Zack. It was Zack who showed Genesis was it means to be an honorable SOLDIER, and that is was Genesis promised he would become to the protect the world. Genesis and Zack have little connection to the events of Deepground because Weiss and Nero and the rest of them arm warmongering and bloodthisty. Genesis and Zack do not want that. Deepground may end up being used by Shinra, but they will not be closely connected with Genesis's and Zack's goals. The only way this can change is is Weiss and Nero choose to join Genesis, because he is their "older brother" due to his genes being used to create them.
This is all helpful context. Though it's seemingly an unpopular stance these days, I find everything related to Genesis, Minerva, etc to be gobbledygook that I genuinely can't make much heads or tails of. After thinking more about Rebirth for the past 2 weeks since publishing this, I also have whole new ideas about what's happening overall with the story (though Zack's exact role is still much of a mystery to me).
@@SubTXT_ I can't blame you at all for being a bit lost with all the Genesis/Minerva/Loveless stuff. Other big FF7 fans like Maximillian have also been overlooking some of these big details, making assumptions that Genesis will either not be returning, or that if he does he will be Zack's villain. These kinds of issues come from something that has long plagued the Compilation: the devs keep leaving these important details out of the games themselves and only reveal them in supplemental materials like the Ultimania Omega Guides. Terrible way to build a story, but it looks like they have finally learned their lesson with how they've directed things in Remake. About time.
@@novachikun Yeah, the very little integration of the compilation has been very good so far. I really like that they're bringing in Avalanche/Wutai and the concept of cellular degradation. I've watched Sleepezi's videos as well, which do a great job of pulling in all of that Ultimania info, but it's still so dense that it's a bit hard to wrap your arms around. I've accepted that they'll be bringing a lot of this stuff into the Remake trilogy, but I truly hope that whatever story they're telling doesn't get too overwhelmed with all of those elements.
One Timeline Chad theorist. 🗿 Yeah multiple timelines doesn't make sense in the FF7 world. I also think the terrier characters got erased when the beagle team came out of the singularity, but their memories carried over. That's why Cloud has memories of Tifa dying. Cloud's gonna be even more messed up.
I totally disagree with Zack having an epic team up in part 3 or Aerith being revived, it’s not just loss that is the emotional resonance of FF7 it’s the permanence of that loss specifically, to undo, especially Aerith, you lose a central theme that makes the game so special. Everything else though, was definitely an interesting perspective given how much I am wary and cautious of the remake project. Great video nonetheless 👌🏻
Neither teaming up nor Aerith surviving is my favorite option by a mile, but I reached that part of the script and just thought it’s a realistic expectation given the creatives in charge ha. And I admit that I have seen some stories that made me say “If they do X, I will absolutely hate it!” And then not completely hate it based on the execution. TL;DR: just a bit of copium from me in that moment haha
I think one thing that would disprove or make any theory I've seen so far viable, is what happened to Survivor Zack's Cloud. We saw Zack drag Cloud back to Midgard afterall. Is there 2 Clouds now in 1 timeline? Is Zack and Cloud in a Second Timeline?
Loved this theory too. I will need to listen to it a couple of more times to make a complete opinion on it, but as far as I like some of these intakes I still do not understand what is Sephihroth's point in doing all of this following your reasoning. If having Zack back, in the new "remade" reality is actually a benefit for our party, what is the plus for Sephiroth in doing all this? Was this the desperate call of the planet to contrast Sephiroth's doing as some believe or is this part of his plan? There is still something missing I feel. What we know from CC is that both Cloud AND Zack are the only two humans who possess pure S cells in their bodies. And what I mean is that they have his cells and they (apparently) did not react to them in the way like Genesis' clones did. If Zack being alive is what Sephiroth wanted it could point into the direction of messing with Cloud more but it might also be to have another plan with someone else who is injected with his own cells. To me Sephiroth intentions and Zack altered fate are the two most important holes that will need to find an answer. Once we understand better how these two things are connected I believe that is when we will be able to really understand what is going on in the story. Also form what we know from AC, Sephiroth will not die until Cloud remembers him. What I think it might happen is that maybe Sephiorth's plan is to destroy Cloud (after he refused to "help" him at the Edge of Creation) and to have someone else as an anchor to come back in case he fails what he wants to do. And what better anchor (or horcrux let m say) than another person who shares his cells without degrading. This is just an idea I formed in my mind after digging into deep lore myself but the opportunities they have with the ongoing path are indeed multiple. I can't wait for more thoughts on this!
Great comment. It’s been a long time since I published this and at the time, I went along with the consensus that Zack’s survival was an unintended consequence… that in all of Sephiroth’s scheming, he didn’t account for the destruction of the plot ghosts to result in Zack’s survival and eventual intervention that would ultimately defeat him. Lots of people theorized about Zack and Cloud teaming up in the end. But after the epiphany described in my latest video, I’ve come around to thinking this is all part of Sephiroth’s plan and the way he plans to use Zack will break us and Cloud even further.
@@SubTXT_ yes if that is the plan I believe it could be based on the fact that Zack has S cells within himself too. But, his mind seemed very strong to resist Jenova, so maybe this could be the "problem" in Sephiroth plan: to not consider Zack as strong as he actually is. But when I write this it seems a little "too simple" of an explanation to be honest. Same story, If Zack survived thanks to the whispers, than the path seems to bring to a direct fight between Zack and Cloud, maybe to snap Cloud out of Sephiroth's control. But what after that? Thanks for the reply by the way! :)
Knowing Nomura, Zack will be alive as some mysterious black cloak character with some memory loss from traversing different timelines. Most likely we will have some convoluted storyline involving how Zack can’t exist in one timeline and we will need to send him back or end him. Why? Reasons…..and cuz it’s a Nomura trademark to subvert expectations for the sake of a cool cg movie moment.
It's important to remember that the writing in Kingdom Hearts is so, well, Nomurian because he's the writer of KH. But Kazushige Nojima is the writer of FF7 and FF7 Remake. Additionally, Nomura isn't even the director of the sequel games. He is involved as Creative Director, but he's far from the only voice in the room. He also came up with some of the best ideas in the original FF7. The OG's director wanted to kill off the entire party in the return to Midgar, and Nomura convinced him that was a bad idea. Check out the video "Defending Nomura" by Phillip Hartshorn. I'm not a fan of Kingdom Hearts craziness, but I think people are too harsh on his impact in FF7.
@@SubTXT_ Ohhh I’m well aware of those stories of Nomura along with that video. Personally for me, it’s a love hate relationship. I think he’s absolutely great with the creative and visual directing aspect of creating a game. However he’s terrible with scope creeping his vision hence why his games with him as a sole director takes roughly a decade. That’s why he needs a co-director. It’s like he has a great general idea for a main concept but is unable to fill in the details and ends up being convoluted since he’s known to keep adding clay to his work instead of stripping. In the end when I play a Nomura game my heart tells me it’s a cool fun game but my head tells me this doesn’t make any sense. This video says it best - fans aren’t opposed to changes but not destroy the foundation. Now we aren’t discussing about the sequels since we don’t know what will happen. However we can discuss the foundations that Nomura started with Remake. It is also documented that Nojima and Nomura aren’t in the best of relations and quite often don’t see eye to eye with each other according to Kitase when they worked on FF7 together. Removing Kitase as the mediator of those two is what we got with Remake. We can all point a finger in regard to the timeline, whispers and destiny crossroads to Nojima as a story writer. However let’s not pretend there isn’t a person who has the final say - Nomura. Kitase would have a final say over Nomura but he isn’t gonna question him creatively as a producer. I once read that with the Sephiroth boss battle was proposed by someone else after the meeting to Nomura personally, in which he approved and thought it was also a good idea. As a Japanese who worked under a Japanese company, I can assure you that there is always someone who has a final say especially if that person out positions you. In this case a director can easily say no to a writer and have him rework it until it gets approved. I’m not familiar with Nojima’s writing style. However we can see similarities from Remake and KH. Destiny, alternate timelines, cloaked shadowy characters and people who supposedly are dead are never really dead. Sounds like a Nomura style of writing to me. If he wants to save a certain someone I would be fine. However I fundamentally disagree with Zack being saved. It literally destroys the hero’s journey of Cloud. Saving everyone isn’t necessarily a good thing in good story telling. He’s pretty much doing just that if you account for the infinite timeline possibilities. Where there is no cost there is no risk.
@@ruihanazawa2906 that’s fair. It’s a big reason I’ve thought so much about how they’ll use Zack. It’s potentially disastrous. Them releasing Crisis Core in between games, essentially signaling, “Hey everyone, find out the Truth about these characters histories” in between Remake and Rebirth strikes a lot of fear in my heart.
@@SubTXT_ That was my exact feelings too when I saw the remake of Crisis Core. It’s a huge worry for me to think they would introduce new players to him and would bring back Zack into the main game for the sequels for that very purpose. I shed tears playing Crisis Core when it was first released but now after the Remake Zack ending, I don’t have any feelings for that scene or the character now. Mehhhhh they took away the beauty of passing the Buster Sword legacy with that subverting expectation nonsense. Still looking forward to the new game but I’m nervous. Heck they might as well change the ending of Crisis Core now since this game will be released after Remake and the Destiny crossroad has been destroyed.
I wonder if, Zack's journey throughout Midgar ends early as he realizes that Aerith and the rest of the party isn't around, he might either go to: Gongaga, Nibelheim or maybe Wutai because of Sonon. Gongaga is his hometown, makes sense, but it would completely shift from the focus of the unreliable narrator. Nibelheim is to retrace his steps once more and from there, go after the party. As for Wutai, I find interesting only because of the whole ordeal we had to deal with Wutai in Crisis Core and maybe this might be explored further, maybe some members from that war might've survived and some may even remember Zack from the Fort invasion on Chapter 1 of CC
It's a good theory. 1 thing I want to know is are they going to bring back Genesis? When Weiss/Omega weapon are defeated by Vincent in DoC, Genesis makes a return, and left it on that easter egg. Maybe he too could aid in the fight against Sephiroth? Also I really wanna know in the original time line why Genesis returned and what his purpose/intentions are.
So is there two Cloud in the timeline if Zack is able to meet the party later? I think it's two timelines and will eventually get intertwined somehow through the life stream that will get set up and prepare us for part 3. You can't have two Clouds walking in the same path like that if Zack is able to meet the main parties from Remake.
It's the biggest question I have about the single timeline theory that I have come to believe. The consensus among those who believe it is that souls are singular elements in the world and hence can only exist within one body. In that case, it is possible that the versions of characters from the Terrier timeline die at some point. For example, Zack eventually realizes that the Cloud he's carrying has died or dies shortly after reaching Midgar. That may be who Zack is talking to in the trailer when he says, "Sorry, feel like I failed you." (realizing Cloud is dead). Which means Zack may think Cloud is dead and Cloud may think Zack is dead - making their inevitable meeting quite a crazy moment. The others may have died in the plate fall or some other moments in that remade timeline. Multiple timelines are definitely much cleaner for solving that, but introduce a lot of other issues such as consequentiality and such. If there are two timelines, then what is there to stop there from being potentially infinite timelines? And if there are, then why does the way things play out in any one timeline matter in the long run?
Crazy idea, but hear me out...Everyone BUT Aerith dies. Not as extreme as Sindel killing everyone in Mortal Kombat 9, but a handful of the heroes (perhaps what's left after some of them died individually at earlier points in the game) actually get to the City of the Ancients before Aerith (maybe valuing her as the last Cetra and only one capable of channeling Holy) and throw themselves at Sepiroth. They don't go in with a defeatist attitude (maybe even Cloud becoming proactive in taking his self-control back to give him determination), but they're primarily focused on buying Aerith time and know the odds are against them; maybe players play this battle out, but the only way to resolve it is for each party member to die against a Sepiroth that can only be defeated in a New Game + (and even then, still unreasonably hard). Everyone's dead, but Sepiroth didn't intercept Holy, so it winds up repelling Meteor as intended...but the Weapons are still running about and now have nothing else to do. Nature, as it did in the original game, reclaims The Planet, but much faster and more violent this time around; the pain and permanence of Aerith's death replaced with...um...the irreversible nature of consequences? Had Shinra thought ahead instead of falling back on The Promised Land, had Sepiroth thought of someone other than himself, then Cloud and Co wouldn't have needed to scramble so desperately in the 11th hour and arrived at a pretty crappy solution...Or just do what Crisis on Infinite Earths did with The Flash and say the longer one avoids their destiny, the worse things get. Admittedly, 90% of this is just a shut-post and assumes Remake abandoned the idea that Jenova was acting on Sepiroth's behalf and Sepiroth wasn't in the Lifestream and unimpeded in jamming Holy, heh heh.
It's so cool how many people worship the OG FF7 from '97, and now the 2020 Remake sold 3.5 million copies in just the first 3 days. That's what I call influential!
@@SubTXT_ All good! Yeah she characterizes a lot of Japanese tropes. She’s from Wutai, which is the game’s embodiment of Japan (with pagodas and such), but she also has that youthful, lighthearted energy you see a lot of the culture exhibit and be drawn to
part 1 didnt fixate on clouds broken mind it fixated on how the ghosts and aerith showed cloud future moments and clouds focus on his trauma with sephiroth. zack isnt aeriths ex zack is aeriths dead bf. also in zacks timeline he is alive but so is cloud so if zack meets the other cloud does that mean there wil be 2 clouds?
If they keep having everyone survive everything, it is going to SEVERLY subtract from the emotional impact and darkness of the story. Some people have to die in shitty ways. Sometimes you won't be able to say bye the way you want to, if at all.... That was kinda the point.
I very much agree. I always saw the FF7 story as about dealing with loss. Cloud losing his home and his identity. Aerith losing her mother. Tifa losing her father and hometown. Barret losing Corel, Dyne, Avalanche. Red losing his father. it goes on and on. I want that to remain. I fear them bending over the please fans.
Watching this after I saw the summer games Rebirth trailer, especially because within the first moments of it, the news caster says Sectors “ZERO, 1, & 2.”👀✨
This is really cool ! I like this theory my personal idea that I had rn playing crisis core reunion is that zack will be the final boss of rebirth (manipulated by seph) and cloud will have to kill him.
Thanks for your theory, I really like it! But I have a question. Does Zack know Elmyra? She isn't mentioned in Crisis Core Reunion, is she? After just finishing that Game I think it would be more likely for Zack to look for Tseng or Cissnei. But from there on Zack could also get into this whole Shinra and Deepground stuff. Maybe you're doing another video now that Crisis Core Reunion is out. I tried to watch out for the differences between now and 2007/2008 but yeah no, my memorie isn't that good. ... but the PSP is there laying around so who knows.
He definitely knows OF Elmyra. In the secret cutscene in the OG, he talks out his options in the back of the truck on the way to Midgar and when he thinks of staying with Aerith he says, "Oh no, the mom lives there." But there is no canon scene of him meeting Elmyra (though Elmyra definitely knows of Zack because of how she reacts to Cloud's SOLDIER status in Remake).
🤔 What if Sephiroth kills Cloud instead of Aeris? After all, he knows what happens if she joins with the livestream. However, this time we could have a sidequest in which we can bring back Cloud. Like what happened with Chrono in Chrono Trigger.
So its obviously two timelines, why? Because two Buster Swords and also two Clouds. It kills me how everyone talks about Zack, but no-one mentions the second Cloud. Zack is still burdened by him because Cloud, without the experience of watching Zack die and becoming his living legacy, simply doesn’t have the strength of will to shake off Jenovas influence so he’s still an invalid. He will likely be the puppet of Sephiroth in rebirth.
i’ll be honest, im a huge zack lover thanks to crisis core, but seeing him alive at the end of ff7r made me terrified that the entire story was now going to become some jumbled mess of timelines that make no sense with the core story of ff7. now i feel so relieved knowing that there are possibilities where he could be utilized in the games in ways that dont completely mess with the story, so thank you king!! i really hope to see cloud lose his mind!! :)
My theory is their is actually 3 Sephiroth's. 1 being the illusion one created by Clouds mind. 2nd being a future Sephiroth who has travelled back to this point in time and appears to have a clarity to him. This is the one that opens the portal to the whispers and that Cloud and gang fight at the end. Finally the 3rd being current Sephiroth from this time who is sealed in the crystal. This one is still insane. Basically future Sephiroth tricked the party into destroying the Harbinger of Fate who is trying to keep the timeline on the same path as it went in original FF7. We see this by everytime something happens that goes against the original timeline the whispers intervene such as Barret's death. By killing it now the timeline can drastically change. As for how this will go for Zack I'm not sure yet but what people seem to gloss over though is Zack making his way back to Midgar WITH Cloud in tow. A Cloud that never assumed the identity of SOLDIER. To me it's clear that current and future Sephiroth are invading the Cloud's we play as mind due to the Jenova cells he has but what if Sephiroth just needs Cloud and it doesn't need to be *SOLDIER* Cloud? The Cloud that Zack is carrying with him is going to play a pivotal role as well iirc. Just my 2 cents.
Oooh interesting. I'm sure they said that some events and destinations would happen in a different order. So meeting Zack in his home town could actually be written to be placed later on in the game o_O;
I'm personally of the belief that after talking with Elmyra, Zack will try to infiltrate the Shinra building as well, but after realizing Aerith isn't there anymore, he will be confronted by Tsung. Gameplay wise you probably have to fight Tseng for a little bit, and after defeating him, you ask him where are they holding Aerith, where Tseng will probably tell Zack that she escaped or "got kidnapped" with/by a group called avalanche. Feeling conflicted due to his recent past as a Shinra fugitive and test subject, Zack would likely not believe Tseng, but would eventually be convinced (my guess is either by being showed where Aerith was being held, or perhaps by talking with Cissnei) I think Zack will end up helping the Turks for the first part of the game hunt down avalanche, maybe only coming face to face with Barret AND Red, until finally seeing that cloud and tifa are part of avalanche and that Aerith joined them willingly
I don't know if a Zack / Tseng fight would be too interesting, but it's very plausible that his connection to the Turks could lead him to us. Maybe even the return of Cissnei.
Okay those are all very interesting theories you have about Zack's role in FF7 Rebirth. What I hope happens is Zack somehow WILL come across Cloud and the others at some point cause Cloud could really use his help right now about his messed up mind and being Sephiroth's puppet because of the mako poisoning Hojo did to him for his sick reunion experiment. Also I hope Zack really will be the one to save Aerith somehow. I just hope part 3 won't take as long to release after part 2 cause right now they're working on both.
I'm pretty sure the dmw was a deep ground project that was being tested on Zack. And it's what killed him. It took his experience. It leveled him without any natural progression, and it provided dramatic benefits that should have a cost like invincibility. But what if the dmw consumed his mind to give him power? Why it breaks and he loses. He has no power without it as it took all of his experience. That's how I see it anyway.
That’s interesting. Is there anything in canon that describes that? Because the DMW always seemed to just show up…but maybe I didn’t pay enough attention. It would make sense as a Deepground invention though considering it’s experiments it allowing digital consciousnesses to control bodies like the reveal about Weiss at the end of Dirge.
Well, a new video came out today. Seems like zack didn't go to the shrina building since aerith was already laying somewhere random. But dang, the deepground part sounds really good, but now, since thats out now we dont know where they're going with these deepground stuff lol
Im not sure if im understanding your theory right. You believe just cloud and party was sent to zack time if so it is said that 3 months passed between zack death and the plate fall so my did it take zack so long to see aeirth? If its all of midgar why did they have to go to that other plain again? And of course where is 2nd cloud during rebirth unless you saying 1st cloud will die and tifa will have 2nd cloud
I have yet to see confirmation or sourcing of that 3-month timeframe. I've seen that on the Fandom Wiki timeline, but have never seen the source for it. I've always struggled with the 3-month timing. Even if we assume the 3-month timing is true, then what the heck was Cloud doing for 3 months? In the scene where Tifa tells her side of meeting Cloud in Midgar, she finds him collapsed in the Sector 7 train station. Why did it take him 2-3 months to get from Zack to there also? As for the multiple Cloud question, it's my biggest question about the single "remade" timeline theory as well. Most believe that Cloud just succumbs to his Mako poisoning and dies, which could be when Zack says his line from the trailer, "Sorry, feels like I failed you." (realizing the Cloud he's been carrying has died).
Okay before I actually watch the video I'm going to go ahead and state this now: theory about him surviving well before integrade and my first version of the theory suspected that he was the other Cloud that we saw in the ground that The whispers wiped their memories of. I now believe that was more of a psychological tick and not really him seeing himself or by extension Zack. My revised theory actually uses a certain very particular note from the world's preview book. In this book is a timeline which among other things happens to you list in meticulous and revised detail the full timeline of before crisis. The reason why this is interesting is it actually made a number of revisions and retcons to the before crisis timeline. Such as when exactly the Wutai war ended, what years Reno and Rufus were born, what year rude was born, the exact dates of specific events such as when the Turks received the order to save Zack no matter what... Which curiously is placed several weeks after Zack is supposed to die on September 17th. It then goes into the most excruciating detail in terms of a timeline for the dates of October 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th and 6th. October 4th is when cloud is found all by himself in sector 7. During this time the church received the orders to save Zack, the leader of the Turks and the leader of avalanche are both executed presumably publicly in Sector 5. A high speed Chase begins in proximity to the Sector 5 Church and leads all the way into midgar itself through the train tracks and ends up onto the streets. Those participating in this high-speed chase include the player Turk, cisnei, and multiple avalanche aligned anti-soldier Ravens. Immediately after this detail cloud is discovered by Tifa. This is then followed by the church suddenly going to exile,Tseng Reno and rude are arrested. Those three are then put on trial. October 6th: rufusion represents a case saving those three Turks. Then it suddenly jumps over to December 12th: jade weapon is slain in icicle inn. December 12th: the first bombing mission of reactor 1 begins. So my working theory from this is Zack is on the Northern continent. Or if not there specifically he is with at least one of the Turks in exile. I do believe his party will include Kyrie and Lester at some point. I would not be surprised if Nayo ends up in his party under her actual name Nellie. In whatever case I am absolutely certain that Zack will have at least one turk in his party. Though I suspect we won't actually get to see those Turks in action. I do however expect to see those Turks in the story. I'm down specifically I'm looking forward to knives. The other one that I would really look forward to is Able. I might be recalling the name wrong, but he is basically a right handed much younger 'Reno'.
As I'm watching and I'm currently at the sephiroth inserting himself a lot tidbit, I just want to point out real quick in the nomora written ultimania Omega from the 15th anniversary: the voice and clouds had in all those scenes in the original game is Zack. But now in remake every single one of those scenes now has Sephiroth instead. Cloud can't even hear Zack's name. Since the dead can attach themselves to you in your memories... Zack had to be alive from the start of this remake adventure, after all, the whispers are in the past present and future wherever they may be. As an example of this, Reeve describes the ending of remake (whispers swirl around Shinra building) as something that happens every single night around the same time ever since x event, and that he feels like it has always happened. Info told to Vincent in Dirge is changed over time in the same way Wutai info is changed over time, as if the truth is being altered in front of us with the characters oblivious to it. And then there's the particle snow after beating the whispers. In BC, DC, the original, and in Remake, the particle snow happens to highlight an event. Jade Weapon or the big bad from the proto materi being destroyed. Whisper arbiter defeat. Omega weapon being destroyed. The only time it doesn't happen is crisis core, I suspect. But I may actually be wrong about that.
If we base off what we see in his brief timeline switch Zach just defeated the Shinra squad sent to kill him and Cloud and clearly he survived where he once died. Thus he has yet to meet Aerith and as he walks off cloud is nit with him and what we seen when the left midgar was only what Cloud remembered
![แฉกลโกงงานวัด 2024 [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.106 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/taC5dpP3HXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
0:54 The Problem with Theories to Date
1:49 Level Setting on Timeline(s)
4:16 Theory Criteria 1 - Zack's Impact on Cloud & Sephiroth
7:25 Theory Criteria 2 - How Would Zack Meet the Party?
10:45 The Deepground Zack Theory
16:51 Outro & Info
Fun Fact: these timestamps in the description of the video actually creates "chapters" on TH-cam.
The mind game thing is redundent and unneeded since we've played the original
I stumbled upon this late but some of the stuff here is inconsistent because the Japanese trailer for rebirth is slightly different. In the Japanese translation, cloud directly mentions Zack by name and his tone is very different as well
So... you're saying there's a chance that Crisis Core 2 will be made???
@@joepwrsurge no that he might appear in the remake
Love the theory. Mine is that Sephiroth is somehow aware of his own failures, and has undone Zack's death, and plans on doing things differently. Would Cloud have been able to defeat Sephiroth if he didn't feel obligated to do what Zack would do? Would Aerith be too distracted by being reunited with who she loved? If you change your opponents biggest growth point, do they grow?
FF7 remake plot takes place after original FF7 and movie Advent Children. Yes Sephiroth knows what happened in ff7 and this is ANOTHER Sephiroth from Advent Children (he also have his suit from the movie)
It didn't change anything though. I think because Sephiroth took them into the Singularity, they were protected from the changes to the timeline they brought about by killing the Whispers. Meaning they still have their original memories. I also think Sephiroth did this purposely to protect them as the changes could have erased them or changed them. Well more specifically he only did it to protect Cloud, the others just followed Cloud. He protected Cloud because he needs him for some reason. He made it a point throughout Remake that he needs Cloud's help for something nefarious.
I honestly think having all these zack teases in remake is just a super meta way of having the player base experience the fracturing of Cloud's mind and making is feel like all our memories are fake and that we don't knew what's real and what isn't
@Rob305 you're pretty dumb huh?
"making is feel like all our memories are fake and that we don't knew what's real and what isn't" aka makolighting =)
I love this theory a lot. And it works really well to keep Zack at bay till necessary. Something Max didn't mention (and will someday need to come to terms with) is the existence of Omega and Chaos since they are very much WEAPONS as well, and linked to the end of the world. Since Omega is linked to Weiss and Deepground, it wouldn't be far fetched to say Zack may have something to do with the end as well, and by default-- Genesis.
Also, come to think of it, Zack was the first main character to come across Vincent in CC. The dynamics between those two is something I didn't know I wanted till now.
On a side note imagine the sword combos that Zack and cloud could unleash if in the party together.
There is a war in my brain between cool fan service moments like this and wondering if it's actually best for the story. But a lot of people think the two will eventually team up.
@SubTXT did u cancel ur channel?U haven't uploaded anything ff in a long time
@@paulsmith9192 No I haven’t. I just don’t create content until I have something that I think is worth making a video about. I’m actually finally editing my next video right now, in fact.
I completely agree with your sentiment that the Yuffie DLC definitely laid some groundwork for a new storyline. One of the biggest changes to Remake's story is the alliance between Wutai and Avalanche. Given's Zack's backstory of going to Wutai in CC (and meeting a 9 y/o Yuffie along the way), it makes perfect sense.
As for what's going on with Zack, Nomura said something quite interesting. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that Zack is the key to the mysteries in FF7R. But what mysteries? There are several Sleepezi went over, but let me mention one oddity that seemingly no one has really picked up on. At the pillar, Cloud and the gang runs across a mortally wounded Biggs. Yet, at the end of Remake, you see Biggs recovering in the hospital in Sector 5. How is this possible? Even if we were to assume that he *didn't* die (though it's heavily implied), there is simply not enough time for someone to go in and rescue Biggs when the plate drop happens a very short time afterwards. You also see Sector 7 residents (like Marle, the landlady) rebuilding, which never happened in the original. It's quite evident that Zack's survival isn't the only thing that was changed in this new timeline. I hypothesize that FF7 Rebirth will have Zack going through Remake's story leading up to plate fall. It might have been Zack that initially saved Wedge (and rescued Biggs), and it may have also been Zack who left the President dangling off the cliff. This makes PERFECT sense as it was Shinra who ordered the hit squad that (nearly) killed him....
Interesting, though that would imply that Zack was doing all of these things in the same timeline as what we played as Cloud in Part 1 and BEFORE we beat Destiny and either remade the timeline or created a second one. I don’t think that’s possible though, since Zack’s survival seems to be a direct result of the party defeats Destiny.
You do bring up a good point about moments not enough people talk about. WHY is President Shinra pushed through the window and left hanging from the ledge. I presumed because the Whispers did it. But why did they have to do it? Is it because Sephiroth was so preoccupied with Cloud this time that he didn’t go kill the President?
@@SubTXT_ One thing to keep in mind is that the timeline in Remake is separate and distinct than the FF7 OG storyline. There are differences (both big and small), and the writers went through great efforts to make you aware of the two timelines. Perhaps the red herring is to assume that Zack is dead in the Remake timeline because that what happened in the OG storyline.
One small example, the time on the clock tower you see at the beginning of Remake has a different time than the one in OG FF7. There's also a calendar in Remake, which seems to place the events in Remake several MONTHS before the corresponding events in the OG FF7. Take a look at this: imgur.com/a/j4EXHRO
The ghosts revived biggs
@@SubTXT_ if Zack was revived due to them beating Destiny, would he wake up from that point or from the point of when he was fighting the infantrymen. If it is the latter, he should have been able to follow behind.
As for the whispers and Shinra... I always assumes they were trying to keep the peace with the original timeline. Kinda like when they tried to stop the group from going a certain way... Shinra was supposed to die but sephiroth was too busy so they had to do it.
Love the content man. I can’t believe I saw this 10 months late. But the algorithm brought me to this video.
Aa soon as I saw Zack was alive at the end of Remake, I automatically envisioned him making his entrance by parrying Sepheroth's sword away from Aerith, saving her. (The scene where she's supposed to die in)
Sounds good, but it would be really strange for him to run into Cloud at that point. It would negate EVERYTHING.
runs into cloud and cloud has his whole mental breakdown arc. lmfao@@aliikram673
Great stuff. I always see you in other community stuff and it's cool to see you making great videos!
Thanks!
As somebody who agrees with a Max a lot, mainly in how stupid some of the compilation characters are, this theory feels like a pretty good way to handle those stupid elements of the FF7 compilation. As Max has said before, Zack is a normal guy that has to deal with a bunch of weirdos, so throwing Zack in the middle of all the deepground stuff feels like a really good use of his character while not interrupting the main plot of the game too soon, and also making good use of the FF7 compilation stuff instead of just pretending they're not there.
This is a great examination with superb production levels. Thank you. I'm going to make a counter-argument but want to go out of my way first to make clear I highly respect and admire your videos from both an analytical and video production level. Effort appreciated. I mentioned in a comment on another of your videos that I'm in the Maximilian Dood dual-timeline camp. The premise you posit in this essay has only fortified my faith in the dual-timeline. The crux--so to speak--of the single-timeline theory you share with others rests on the assumption that Aerith is alive when Zack arrives at the church in Sector 5, post-InterMISSION, as though she's running around Kalm or beyond with the gang while Zack is on a mission to track her down.
I'd argue that all signs (including the words of the devs) point to Zack being in an alternate timeline where Aerith is dead or--slim chance, but unlikely--injured and imprisoned by Shinra. You wrap up this video suggesting Zack and the rest of the Cloud team will eventually combine forces to shut down Sephiroth. That I 100% agree with. The only difference is I think there's going to be some spooky lifestream and/or Sephiroth magic timeline-merging BS in part III (that I will happily eat up) that accomplishes this. But the idea that Zack has become a part of the same physical existence as Cloud & gang after the demise of the plot ghosts, well . . . the end of base FFVIIR where Crisis-Core-Zack-and-Cloud ghosts past FFVIIR-Cloud-and-gang just doesn't jive with that.
Since Zack is alive and the timeline has changed into an unknown one, I just hope we see Zack reunite with his lover Aerith! ❤ 🎀 🌻
He isn’t alive
They did in the life steam
How sure are you zack isn't in a separate timeline like the main cast
@@TokenCast how exactly would you propose that work in a video game like final fantasy where you have a party ? Why would we need two party’s? And why would Zack being alive help the story ? It wouldn’t that’s the answer
@Stillhovering The same way it did in remake Zack is in a different area and all you do is get cut scenes of him in a different area.
Didn't say you had to play him.
I would love for sephiroth to lure zack and Cloud to fight each other and for this to be what breaks cloud mind.
I love this theory. It’s very logical and considered and if this ends up happening I think it won’t interfere with the core story beats of the original as you mentioned. Awesome video 👏
This is a really sick theory. I'd be satisfied if this is how it turned out.
I think having Nero and Weiss confirmed as the two soldiers that take Genesis's corpse away in Reunion lends credence to your theory a bit.
What if Cloud's group doesn't meet Yuffie, Cait Sith, Vincent, and Cid. Cloud already has his own "Five-Man Band" in himself, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII. So what if the other four characters instead end up become Zack's party members?
noooooooooooo, cheesy too much.
I wouldn’t be surprised. I kinda got the vibe that were not getting the full cast of party members. How’d they make them all playable in the same game as they joined our party ?
I kinda hope that doesn't happen.
Zack is dead
@@husky7281 He's alive in another timeline. Stop coping.
Finally, someone who believes in one timeline and doesn’t try to make my head hurt with the “two timelines with a bunch of differences”. I hope things stay not too complicated.
Lmao it's final fantasy that's like asking paint to dry faster or water to not get things wet , a convoluted storyline that hurts your brain is the final fantasy way 😂 I'm just glad the series isn't as convoluted as say a metal gear solid game is 😅
Just a point but Sephiroth could well use Zack's survival to mess with Cloud because there are now two Clouds in the timeline. The one with Zack and the one from the pre-destiny's crossroads timeline. Supposing he gets Cloud to think he is some sort of hybrid clone of the 'real' Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth. He knows Cloud stopped him in the original future only because Tifa put him back together. The existence of a 'real' Cloud might lead to her assuming him an impostor and thus prevent that.
Of course my big theory is that it was Cloud not Aerith that the whispers were trying to stop. Why? Because he is a time traveller too and has already knocked the original timeline off kilter (hence the subtle changes like an extra day here or there and the original version of Avalanche still being around) but by the start of remake they have already messed with his memory ... hence why he doesn't know he is from the future but also why he seems to have premonitions of aerith's death, the northern crater and plate fall during the game... they are memories. Also why his personality is a touch different - mushing his brain didn't completely erase his growth. Anyway the theory is that Future Cloud had already thrown stuff into chaos and the whispers are trying to get the future back on track as best they can. The other big thing here is that it seems like Zack arrives in Midgar after plate fall which makes no sense unless the events of remake take place about two weeks earlier than the original game... which works because iirc in OG Tifa finds mako poisoned Cloud, nurses him back to health over a couple of weeks then introduces him to Avalanche. In remake she met an apparently healthy Cloud and immediately roped him in. If this is true then the whispers were likely going to ensure not just Zack but also original Cloud died so future Cloud can be shoehorned into his place... of course they lost and that completely remade the timeline including some changes that aren't down to Cloud which may or may not be important
Yeah, I've really been trying to figure out what they would do with the 2nd Cloud if there is simply one remade timeline, and Sephiroth using that to convince him of his "clone existence" is a really fascinating possibility that makes sense.
It’s possible that Zach is in a chamber and everything is in his mind, in deep ground. Just like they took Genesis they also probably took Zach. Although that would make sense since we never knew where his dead body went.
This is so great and my new head-canon theory! You earned a sub :)
but if zack survives how is the buster sword thing handled and the whole personality switch in cloud story
Thanks TH-cam Reccomendations for the great Reccomendations. I am officially the 223 Like , 108 Comment , & 116 New Subscriber. Keep up the great work every single day that you can do so.
Another great video! Just from the title I knew this theory would resonate with me. Ever since I saw the end of Intermission I've had similar thoughts to what you have outlined here. I know many people don't want to see any more of Deepground but I feel like now that they've been included, it'd be weird of Shinra to have in reserve this elite force and never use it, specially now that there are no 1st class soldiers around. I think that the scene of Nero pulling Sonon's corpse into the darkness implies that Deepground will have an involvement with the possible Wutai storyline. There's gotta be some payoff to the whole early encounter between Yuffie and Nero imo
.
Asides from that, I also agree that Zack's journey could be a way to explore lore and story beats that wouldn't perhaps mesh particularly well with the OG story. I don't think he will spend the majority of Rebirth in Deepground, but I do think he will spend quite a bit of time in Midgar before embarking on his own journey, either to catch up to the party or try to solve a new side of the whole conflict that is unique to FF7R. Perhaps, as you said, he meets Genesis in Deepground, who then will lead him out of Midgar on a chase, not unlike what Sephiroth is doing with Cloud and the others. Either way it is only logical that he will first have to get his bearings on the current situation, what happened with Aerith and co, etc., and he can only do that by spending time in the city.
While I personally don't dread or dislike Zack meeting early with the party, it would certainly be better to use Rebirth as a space for both stories to develop properly first and build up momentum, emotion and anticipation for the eventual climatic reunion (sorry) that way. Having said that, I'm expecting Zack to have an important role and therefore becoming playable at some point in Rebirth, because I honestly can't see them creating a compelling narrative for his side with only randomly placed cutscenes every now and then. Still, I'm extremely hyped and eager to see what will go down with him.
Thanks again for the amazing content to help satiate our thirst for FF7R content and discussions! (Also sorry for the length of this comment t-t).
Super interesting thoughts and I agree. Another though I had AFTER posting this video is that I could even see him getting caught up with the larger Avalanche organization. There are so many possibilities. But starting with Midgar as the basis of his story seems like a sure bet considering that's where he is, where he believes Aerith is, and perhaps safer than heading back to his hometown (which he tried to do at the end of Crisis Core).
@@SubTXT_ I could totally see that happening! We could get more Avalanche info and the reveal of a certain president's involvement. Either way, I'll be patiently waiting for your next video, SubTXT! I can't thank you enough for vocalizing these ideas that perhaps many have pondered but haven't exactly found the way to communicate.
Imagine Sephiroth getting to meet his real mother Lucrecia this time and also getting to know that Hojo is his father.
As for the Part 2 ending, your point is a great choice. I was thinking just before this, with the Weapons flying off, or THAT SCENE... yes, THAT scene, but yes, the reveal of Meteor would be a very epic cliffhanger.
Supposing that there is a singular "remade" timelime wherein Zack's fate is different, the most likely path for him in Rebirth is not to retread the path of the party from Remake, but to follow the path of the party in Rebirth. He could very easily be directed in Aerith's direction in any number of ways that don't need a massive amount of explanation. If he has a major role in the game it very well might be in pursuit of the party, trying to reach Aerith before the pivotal moment (which he doesnt know is coming, but we do).
Ppl suggest he could form his own party, either of FF7 companions or characters who survived or were changed by the new timeline, and anything's possible, but it would be more true to the original to keep the main party together, and it would be very cool to get some Crisis Core moments of Zack in combat on his own (with his randomized DMW limit breaks) thrown in as interludes alongside the main storyline. It would be a very manageable story structure for him to pass through areas the party has already been, while keeping it not entirely clear whether they actually share the exact same timeline or not until/unless they reach the same place.
Dunno where they would decide to go from there though. Aerith's death might have to happen, not just for the story but she may need to enter the lifestream for the world to survive, but by that same token so should Zack's death have needed to happen for any of the other events to unfold, so Rebirth and it's new timeline could change some important things. Zack could show up in time to sacrifice himself for Aerith, or he could get there too late, and/or he could be revealed to actually be on a different timeline than our party, but to what end I don't know. If they want to really fuck with our expectations, Cloud could die instead of Aerith and Zack arrives to take his role in the party, but then the rest of the story would change dramatically. Him joining the established party would not be a difficult hurdle at all; a new person filling in a lost friend's role in a group is just a source of drama and conflict, exactly what makes stories interesting. The more important problem with that is Cloud's pivotal role in events and how Zack couldnt fill in for that, so someone else would have to. Or just how pissed off people would be.
Regardless, in order to introduce Zack to FF7's story in a significant way it would have major ramifications for how events unfold, since Zack's entire existence is such a huge plot twist and a large part of the impetus for breaking Cloud down.
I would personally despise Zack effectively “replacing” Cloud as the main character (in the event of a Cloud death), but it’s possible.
What I think is even more possible is Sephiroth’s puppetry of Cloud being even more extreme. I definitely see the party maybe having to fight a Sephiroth-controlled Cloud at some point. (I think it could be the final boss battle of Rebirth)
but... what about Zack's Cloud? The one he walked away with?
he sounds so good here, the voice director did him so wrong in crisis core
Dude... This is certainly a large piece of the puzzle. Been watching as many theory videos as I can and this is Sleepezi quality.
My thoughts: Sephiroth WANTED the timeline alteration, and Zack surviving is the primary difference. How does this benefit him? I think Sephiroth will introduce them at the worst possible time for Cloud's sanity to gain more than just the black materia.
Also the remake of Crisis Core hints at a Dirge remake. The creators said the Remake project is uniting the whole compilation so maybe part of the Rebirth twist is Sephiroth is after Omega to ride the universal life stream. Zack could be warring against Deep ground/Genesis until they are lured to the Northern crater for the reunion. Not clear on the details but Minerva might use Genesis as a general of sorts to launch the weapons in order to purge the planet of life and summon Omega. Also the white feather indicates Angeal might be involved in this Reunion too.
Can't wait for Reunion to see what the next teasers are. I'm really excited to see how they tie this all together.
Thanks for the Sleepezi comparison. I think that's far too kind, but thank you. You may be on to something. I certainly think Zack will be used MUCH differently than most people assume.
Oh and one more thing came to me on the drive home. If Zack goes to Sector 5 looking for Aerith, he'll HAVE to pass the Leaf house. No way that sword is going unnoticed. And who's at the leaf house... Avalanche. Any survivors from plate fall are there and Avalanche will be playing a great role going forward.
@@icydeadppl25 OH SHIT
Sephiroth was also one of the cleverest people on the planet if he couldn't break Cloud in order to make him to what he wants he would just think of another way
Thrilled to have found you. I don't get much out the typical reaction video. I need at least 10 minutes of somebody's thoughts that have stewed for a while then get distilled into an essay format.
And I'm thrilled to have you. I'm working on my next one now, but not sure when EXACTLY that I will have it done. But I noticed some dialogue in the original game that *puts on tinfoil hat* seems to have some relevance to the vents of Remake ;)
Man that would be interesting. Especially since Midgar assets are already made. It would be much easier to create story content for that if they were to use Zack that way. Though I still absolutely HATE that they ruined the identity crisis plot-twist, my favorite part of OG FFVII. Cloud's identity crisis and Tifa helping him find himself is beautiful & so relatable. But they already ruined that with FFVIIR and then especially with releasing Crisis Core Reunion before pt2-3. I truly hope that whatever they have cooking was worth ruining, in my opinion, the best and most relatable part of OG FFVII.
Yeah, this video -- and it's kind of clear in how I set it up -- is my coping mechanism for how to maintain the identity crisis. But now, many months removed from making this and post-CCR release, it's pretty clear that they are definitely spoiling that reveal early.
I think they may still mess with "what's up with Cloud exactly" for new players who play Crisis Core and KNOW the history and how it conflicts with the way Cloud tells it in Kalm. But it won't have the same impact. They are shifting the mystery toward whatever is going on with Zack...
I finished crisis core reunion the other day and there are some loose ends they could tie up. Zack’s only allies are the Turks. Would Tseng, Reno, Rude and Cisseni aid Zack by filling him in on what he missed. If Zack replaces Cloud would he get involved in avalanche? Would Cloud recover and help Zack? It opens a whole Pandora’s box of questions
Subbed. Enjoyed the video, thanks man. Hope your channel grows.
Awesome. I don't plan to create videos TOO often, but hope to see you in future comments.
I was ready to dismiss this theory going in, but after actually hearing you out, you've got some compelling points here. It even got me to reasonably reconsider a few additional details you didn't mention.
For example, the question of how there are two Clouds (and presumably two of the other party members). Well, maybe there just... isn't. Perhaps upon the party snapping back to reality, their alternate selves cease to be. From Zack's perspective, he sets his comatose buddy down in a hotel room or wherever, and when he returns Cloud just isn't there. From Elmyra's perspective, neither she nor Aerith ever met Cloud or the AVALANCHE members, but Aerith *did* suddenly disappear one day, and the only reasonable culprit is Shinra. Et cetera.
Sure, we see Zack and Cloud pass by the party, but unless they'd both decided to chill in the desert for multiple weeks instead of going to Midgar, it makes more sense for that to be a moment from this new past than for it to be a simultaneous alternate timeline.
Unfortunately, there are nevertheless plot points that seem incongruent with the concept of a single timeline:
Unless we are to somehow believe that the Sector 7 disaster didn't occur in this changed timeline (which clearly can't be the case for many obvious reasons) then how could the members of AVALANCHE have survived the events of either bombing run without Cloud (and potentially without Jessie, their explosives expert) long enough to convince Shinra to drop the plate in the first place? How did the neighborhood citizens of Sector 7 survive for us to witness them rebuilding if Aerith wasn't there to push Wedge into taking action for the evacuation? Most importantly, how would Marlene even be alive, much less under the care of Elmyra?
Moreover, why have Intermission show us Yuffie's perspective from the original timeline if those events and her memory of them were going to change anyway? And, crucially, through what possible reasoning would other key characters, such as the Turks, remember their encounters with the party? It would seem really funky to establish this group rivalry and then have them not even know who the protagonist is in the next game.
The only non-party characters I could potentially see remembering the original timeline are ones who have been given a glimpse into the Lifestream. In other words, either those touched by Aerith through her Cetra magic (Marlene) or those eventually touched by Sephiroth through Geostigma (Rufus, presumably). In any case, that still doesn't solve most of the aforementioned questions.
If anybody can think of better answers, I'd be thrilled to hear them, as this whole theory is fascinating and would be a great way to use Zack in the story, even if I am skeptical about the single timeline aspect.
After thinking about it a bit longer, I've come to the conclusion that, assuming the single timeline theory is true, then the answer to how any of the bombing runs or plate drop occurred is "don't think about it" and the answer to how Marlene survived is that Aerith, even in this altered timeline, likely heard from the planet that she needed to go save Marlene. The other questions still don't quite add up though, far as I've figured.
Theorizing about this damn Remake is a hellish torment haha. I don’t have answers to all your points. One odd thing about the destroyed Sector 7 is that I have stated at the Seventh Heaven signs in both Chapter 13 and the end cinematic and they look different. Unless it’s a trick of the light, one seems brown and the other seems green. And in the end version, you can see the start of the “V” in SEVENTH and everything after E looks gone in the Chapter 13 version.
What’s even more maddening: even if the signs are different, it’s impossible to say whether that confirms single or dual timelines. They have got us really twisting and turning. I hope they stick the landing.
8:29 i don't think so. Sephiroth taunts cloud twice about these 7 seconds. There foreshadowing this for people who don't know, and hanging a lantern on it for people who do.
This is very definitely going to be a drama between cloud and sephiroth (however it plays out) and I don't think Zack will be in a position to intervene.
I just want 2 things from the continuation
1. At least some more love for zack anything would be fine he has been through so much I hope he gets something good happened to him
2. Less tifa aerith shipping I already didn't like the shipping of the 2 girls with each other and the shipping fuel that some scenes had I would love to see aerith and zack to get back together and for cloud and tifa to end together but that is just what i want
.... oooh oh .... YES! this was my theory from like the second month after release. the B-plot - the new stuff was Sephiroth "remaking" the timeline through the FATE WEAPONS power and the whispers doing all in their power to stop it. IN the singularity sephiroth absorbed them and had control for the entire fight - after Cloud strikes him down, Cloud gets 7 seconds to change things as well. 1. Cloud knows Zacks circumstances of death 2. Cloud knows Biggs death 3. Cloud knows why Jessie even came back to Midgar - he saves her father from his accident.
these are the changes Cloud made. this I theorized long before intergrade. but what did Sephiroth change? I believe first off that he killed Aerith before her enlightenment at the temple of the ancients - in Midgar even.
which is why Zack doesn't find her in the church. I also think that there existing two Clouds will be important to further Sephiroths plan.
What about the massive mako boost they got after coming from the pods? Did they get a buff from that?
When you play the original game, there are “reports” in the Shinra mansion basement. It says that the Mako treatment had no impact on Zack (the SOLDIER sample) because he has already been exposed during the SOLDIER process, but Cloud was very much effected. Cloud was essentially put through the process that they use on SOLDIERS. That’s why he does have SOLDIER abilities in FF7 and people believe he’s one.
I like this theory as well. I might get some hate for saying this: but I could see Genesis being the main antagonist (as well as all of Deepground) for Rebirth.
Also, how the Yuffie DLC was parallel to the 1st game; they could do a DLC of a shortened version of Dirge of Cerberus parallel to Rebirth.
Loved the video!! I'm so hyped for this.
Some issues I've been having with a merged timeline is, what happened to the Cloud Zack was carrying? Maybe he died though, and the other duplicate characters also died in different ways. This could lead to other events to not have happened in this new timeline, like the plate falling.
What they will do with Zack I have no idea, I feel like there's little pay off in him just joining the party. Feels like fan service in that case. Having his own side story will also probably mean they need to cut other content, which I am not a big fan of. I'm thinking Zack will simply be a mystery puzzle for the players to solve what happened, maybe making a bigger entrance in game3. All holes due to timelines etc I fear will simply not explain and players have to just accept it haha
Most who believe the single "remade" timeline theory tend to think that souls are singular elements in the world and hence can only exist within one body. In that case, it is possible that the versions of characters from the Terrier timeline die at some point. For example, Zack eventually realizes that the Cloud he's carrying has died or dies shortly after reaching Midgar. That may be who Zack is talking to in the trailer when he says, "Sorry, feel like I failed you." (realizing Cloud is dead). Which means Zack may think Cloud is dead and Cloud may think Zack is dead - making their inevitable meeting quite a crazy moment. The others may have died in the plate fall or some other moments in that remade timeline.
Multiple timelines are definitely much cleaner for solving that, but introduce other issues (If there are potentially infinite timelines, then why does it matter how things play out in any one timeline?)
Either way, your second paragraph was a big part of the reason I made this video. There is definitely a fun "shack factor" for fans in terms of seeing him live - either in our timeline or an alternative timeline - but I have struggled for two years to see any satisfying way to utilize him.
@@SubTXT_ Yeah I know what you mean.. I'm worried there will be an initial wow factor but when things sink in and you analyze it, you will feel it's stupid. Honestly, most stuff people write about what they think will happen are SO stupid haha.. Are they throwing away the whole "You're my living legacy" thing for example?
So yeah, I'm a bit worried why they are doing what they are doing tbh. But I have to remain hopeful. There's so much mystery that I don't think anyone has a good idea what's actually going on
Great theory, ideas like this are always fascinating to follow. What I have been pondering is at the end of remake during that final cutscene when Clouds party and Zack with his Cloud "cross paths" how will that come into play? Since this will likely be bring some type of new timeline into play, what is going to occur between the original timeline Cloud and the still comatosed Cloud that Zack is taking into Midgar? I think that could be a good entry point for the parties to cross paths. Perhaps Zack gets breadcrumbs from people in Midgar/the surviving Avalanche members that leads Zack on a quest to find this "other Cloud" ultimately having the parties meet during the events of Mideel? The "Rebirth" being the 2 Clouds meeting during that time while "sorting out" his memories. IDK, I know I'm focusing on a completely different aspect of what this theory is predicting just something I've been stuck on.
If Sephiroth's goal of breaking Cloud's mind is the same in Remake as in OG, what better way to break his brain than have Cloud come face to face with a copy of himself? Could mess up Cloud even more. There are so many possibilities...
Looking forward to more Zack action. I wouldn't mind if the game alternated gameplay segments between Zack and the main party somehow, or perhaps just showed us Zack cutscenes intermittently.
Yeah, they did a similar thing in FF8 with a character named Laguna and I fully expect it’ll bounce back and forth
@@SubTXT_
LOVE that game!
Hopefully they can offer some fan service as well as give Zack something interesting (and important) to do -- perhaps even adding some character to him?
@@ty_sylicus he really needs some added characterization. I know people love him, but I always thought he was a bit one-dimensional. I actually did think his portrayal at the end of the DLC - despite being a very short scene - had some hints of dimension.
Great content! BTW, You kinda sound like Wedge! :)
This video is so underrated
Thanks! I appreciate it. I'm working on my next one now and hope you check it out when it goes up.
Zack is the most well liked/Important character in the franchise. For a guy thats hardly in it or even marketed much, its amazing
I bet they throw a plot element where Zach has some type of head trauma/amnesia from either jumping timelines or from the damage from all the shinra attackers. So when we first meets cloud again he’s not fully there and you have to help him
I really do think Aerith and Zack have to ultimately die at one point whether both sacrifice themselves at the end of Part 3 maybe to save Cloud and the rest. Aerith Zack and Sephiroth will die and with that comes the end of FFVII.
I’ve wondered if the holy materia needs more energy to work so the sacrifice of a loving willing person activates it. Just how the black materia needed all the energy of the promised land to summon meteor. Sephiroth killing Aerith unwittingly helped her activate holy against him but if they change the timeline and she lives, holy won’t activate. So she chooses to die to unleash holy against him later. Just thinking….
@@zerocrutch I can see Zack using it yes
I think Sephiroth is trying to be buddy buddy with Cloud, not only because Cloud remembering Sephiroth more makes Sephiroth stronger, but also I think it's because he's trying to have full control over Cloud to be on his side. Zack will take Cloud's place in remake and eventually it will be mind controlled Cloud vs Zack and perhaps it will be Cloud that kills Aerith this time.
I definitely think Cloud will become more fully controlled by Sephiroth than JUST a vehicle for the Black Materia. I was replaying Remake again recently and it really hit home how much Sephiroth is obsessed with his strength and Cloud getting stronger. If it is a future Sephiroth, he knows that Cloud is the only one who can defeat him so why take control of him only momentarily? Instead use his body as your host. At that point, who could defeat the "reborn" Sephiroth?
Wutai will be a huge part of Rebirth, they're playing up the war too much, it's not going to be optional anymore, will probably be the biggest expansion of story in part 2.
I have absolutely no doubt Wutai will be a big part of the story and mandatory. I'm just not 100% sure it'll be in Rebirth. It's very possible considering they've covered so much related to Wutai, but technically it's quite the deviation from all of the story ground they have to cover if they are trying to get, for example, all the way to the crater in the next game.
@@SubTXT_ The earliest you can complete Yuffie's sidequests is just after Rocketown, and the way the monsters and bosses are leveled, that's when you're expected to go. You can leave it right there in Rebirth as the biggest new addition to the story, right before you head back to Gold Saucer.
@@SubTXT_ I also think that even if they do change the sequence of events around, it still makes more sense for it to be in Rebirth, especially if Rebirth ends at Northern Crater, because noone is gonna give a crap about the war once Meteor is summoned.
@@menghao737 true, that's a good point. This is gonna be a BEEFY game
Yo, any links to the timeline shown at 2:08
Yup, I got you. Don’t know if you can post links on TH-cam, so if it doesn’t work, just Google “reddit rollakud final fantasy 7 remake timeline” link: www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/hpiheb/final_fantasy_7_remake_timeline/?
@@SubTXT_ I also found that one, but it's not the exact same as the one used in the video.
@@hiddenscorpiusXI hmmm I’m not sure. I’m certain I got it from Google Images. DM me on Twitter and I’ll just send you the image directly.
@@SubTXT_ I'm trying, but can't DM
@@hiddenscorpiusXI if you follow me and I follow you, then we can. Give me a follow and I’ll follow back
I think once we all beat Crisis Core Reunion and see the ending then we’ll have an understanding of Zack’s involvement in FF7 Remake and the rest of the series. Have a read seen some tweets saying that reunion is a prequel to FF7R opposed to FF7(OG) which is interesting. So we’ll definitely have more to go on once we see the ending of Crisis Core Reunion. I bet money that game will have an extended ending tied to FF7R & the rest of the series. Calling it now lol
Yeah, it is very strange how they're setting it up though. On the one hand, they're saying it's a prequel setup to FF7 Remake, but also saying it's very much unchanged (unlike Remake). They even said that if they changed it, there would be no point to the changes in Remake. So I'm not sure if CC Reunion will give us any answers or clues. I think they just want to refresh our memory on Zack's journey since it'll probably be part of his journey in Rebirth.
So how was the the Crises Core Reunion's ending? Is it setting the path for Remake Trilogy?
@zackmilder9504 so there're no signs of any remake aka whisperers and shit?
@@komododragon410 no it's a straight 1:1 remake nothing was changed
@@liambanner3003 do you believe in Jessie's survival theory?
3:30 yes, I agree with this but I'd word it differently. There are 2 timelines, but our party is now in the same one that Zack survived.
Now that Crisis Core is important enough in context of the remake to be rereleased, I'm now starting to think the red gradient in the logo is definitely alluding to Genesis returning and thematically speaking, he never became the hero he wanted to be and secondly it gives him a chance at a redemption arc that could overlap with Cloud and crews motives (maybe even Zack's crew).
I think it fits with the Rebirth title in so many ways and bringing Genesis back would be as much of a shake up as Biggs/Zack being alive and Aerith potentially already dead in another timeline if not just held captive in Shinra HQ.
I definitely think there will be Genesis nods or references in some way - potentially in Zack's side of the journey - but I'm not sure that's what the title is about. My gut is that it's still about Sephiroth. In the OG, Sephiroth talked in the Temple of the Ancients about being "reborn as a god over this planet." Part 2 can be about his full Rebirth (not just puppeteering clones)
@@SubTXT_ Sephiroth is so obvious to all of us including you and I which is why I think much like Aerith's death, it might be a just a narrative tool to eventually subvert our expectations much in the way Whispers changed up a LOT more during the raid on Shinra HQ (Barret dying, encounter with President Shinra, Wedge's fate being up in the air, etc.).
Should be interesting since we now are truly in unknown territory on what happens especially everybody is probably right lol.
worth noting the in Crisis Core Reunion, the whispers are shown to be present at Nibelheim, as Sephiroth and Cloud both emit gray when they impale each other. This was not present in the original game, but added for Reunion.
Interesting takes. But I gotta wonder, according to the proposed singular timeline theory, if our Team Avalanche ends up exiting the singularity back to a timeline where the past has changed and Zack is now alive, then would that mean we're now accepting the possibility of two Cloud's, two buster swords, and potentially two Aerith's, white materia's, Tifa's, Barret's, and Red's now existing in the same time frame concurrently? And if there's two Cloud's, how would your theory account for what Cloud #2 would be up to during all this?
This has been the biggest hole in the single timeline theory for sure. I didn't come up with the single timeline theory, but I have seen some deep dives in which it makes sense given both the lore of the world and some evidence.
The consensus among those who believe it is that souls are singular elements in the world and hence can only exist within one body. In that case, it is possible that the versions from the Terrier timeline either died at some point. For example, Zack eventually realizes that the Cloud he's carrying has died or dies shortly after reaching Midgar. That may be who Zack is talking to in the trailer when he says, "Sorry, feel like I failed you." (realizing Cloud is dead). Which means Zack may think Cloud is dead and Cloud may think Zack is dead - making their inevitable meeting quite a crazy moment. The others may have died in the plate fall or some other moment in that timeline.
Multiple timelines are definitely much cleaner for solving that, but introduce a lot of other issues such as consequentiality and such. If there are potentially infinite timelines, then why does the way things play out in any one matter in the long run?
@@SubTXT_ I appreciate you taking the time to respond and to attempt to fill in some of the holes at play here along the way. Don't worry. Regardless of whether I agree with any of this or not, It's not my intention to rebut any of your claims or ideas in this space. I was just genuinely curious about what your thoughts were as it pertained to the issue. Thanks for sharing!
@@dml1765 All good. We're all just trying to crack the code. What I think is most exciting is that I have yet to see a bulletproof theory out there, mine included. Which means that they are going to surprise ALL of us with whatever it is we are going to get.
My theory for cloud's mind still being broken is after trying to find aerith in sector 5, he decided to take cloud somewhere he believed he would be safe, in this case, the sector 7 Station, he gives a small speech to cloud and gives him the buster sword, and then leaves (maybe to gongaga), of course zack wouldn't know tifa was in sector 7 at the time, considering she would have found cloud (at least in the og timeline) at the station,
Zack looked healed by the time he went to go find Aerith, so we can assume some days have passed at the very least. Cloud would've already been in a relatively healthy state at this point, so he wouldn't have forgotten that Zack is alive (when Zack died in the original, cloud was well enough to make his way to midgar on his own just after that night of Zack fighting).
1- zack wouldn't leave cloud alone like that even if the place was "safe"
2- I remember he said that they both were going to be mercenaries in midgar during the ride in the yellow truck
I think this has more weight than anyone is thinking about. Having just beat crisis core, something I never thought about on remakes play through... The Turks we're looking for Zack and Tseng wanted him alive. Can't say for sure what that's for... But I also remember watching a playthrough of Before Crisis and part of the game the Turks recruited Azul(I believe... Been a long time tbh). But we already know Turks scout Soldier, def possible that's part of their scopes of responsibility. Especially taking into account the secrecy, makes sense. Also taken into account the ending with Genesis, and I believe DoC had a secret ending. Zack and Genesis story tied more into deep ground than we may realize. Factoring in a lot of the Project S and project G stuff leading into Doc. It almost feels like these two stories were supposed to be more connected from the beginning. Also, the genesis clones in CC look like a red version of the Deep Ground soldiers. I think it may be farfetched... But what if Zack becomes conditioned into a higher tier DG soldier like Azul(aren't they like brainwashed or something... A lot of BC, and DoC is fuzzy). But it could be Zack is an enemy when they first meet the group.
It's an interesting and realistic belief of where he would go. But I have a thing to add to it... in BC, the Zirconiade is summoned while Zack is dead and before Cloud is found by Tifa. That's between September and before October 5th. The biggest events of BC occur during that time period. Furthermore, the Zirconiade is fought in a pocket dimension, also translate-able as a singularity. It's depicted as a black ball shaped cloud in the sky over sector 5.
Also, the official timeline for remake in the world preview also includes two December entries. December 12th, the first reactor bombing run begins. December 12th, the Turks in exile kill Jade weapon in Icicle Inn.
Also, I believe the effect Zack had on remake itself is that Zack was the first change made.. it's the same whispers shown in the key art for Sephiroth, the same four that bug Aerith, the same four in cloud's room as Sephiroth's voice tells him to sleep, and it's the same four that keep Cloud's party alive during the chase, and the same four participate on Sephiroth's behalf in the singularity after the whispers as a whole are defeated. The same four that follow the enigmatic whisper, which is hued the same color as Sephiroth and Jenova's "evil".
I believe Zack is the first change to the events of remake, and the explosion of the singularity and the Arbiter throughout time solidified it.
In dirge, the whispers around the Shinra building is described as happening daily ever since something happened that hasn't been specified.
The idea that Zack has no reason to go to Northern Crater is completely omitting the relevance of other major characters such as Angeal, Genesis and even Kunsel. All of these characters know about the anomaly (Minerva) that exists deep in the northern crater. And Angeal and Genesis are on the side of the Planet, and can likely exist in the Lifestream with spirit bodies due to their Jenova inherited abilities.
Also, the Deepground Zack theory is also heavily flawed, because the devs have already revealed what Genesis did after being picked by Weiss and Nero. Genesis did not stay in Deepground because of his born again SOLDIER honor. Genesis made a vow to the Planet/Minerva that he would be its guardian, and the Planet accepted. Genesis declines Weiss's request to help in their rebellion, and Genesis left Deepground on his own and sealed himself away until the Planet summoned him.
Ultimately, Genesis is on the side of the Planet/Minerva. He will not be a villain in Rebirth, but he will definitely be connected to Zack. It was Zack who showed Genesis was it means to be an honorable SOLDIER, and that is was Genesis promised he would become to the protect the world.
Genesis and Zack have little connection to the events of Deepground because Weiss and Nero and the rest of them arm warmongering and bloodthisty. Genesis and Zack do not want that. Deepground may end up being used by Shinra, but they will not be closely connected with Genesis's and Zack's goals. The only way this can change is is Weiss and Nero choose to join Genesis, because he is their "older brother" due to his genes being used to create them.
This is all helpful context. Though it's seemingly an unpopular stance these days, I find everything related to Genesis, Minerva, etc to be gobbledygook that I genuinely can't make much heads or tails of. After thinking more about Rebirth for the past 2 weeks since publishing this, I also have whole new ideas about what's happening overall with the story (though Zack's exact role is still much of a mystery to me).
@@SubTXT_ I can't blame you at all for being a bit lost with all the Genesis/Minerva/Loveless stuff. Other big FF7 fans like Maximillian have also been overlooking some of these big details, making assumptions that Genesis will either not be returning, or that if he does he will be Zack's villain.
These kinds of issues come from something that has long plagued the Compilation: the devs keep leaving these important details out of the games themselves and only reveal them in supplemental materials like the Ultimania Omega Guides. Terrible way to build a story, but it looks like they have finally learned their lesson with how they've directed things in Remake. About time.
@@novachikun Yeah, the very little integration of the compilation has been very good so far. I really like that they're bringing in Avalanche/Wutai and the concept of cellular degradation. I've watched Sleepezi's videos as well, which do a great job of pulling in all of that Ultimania info, but it's still so dense that it's a bit hard to wrap your arms around.
I've accepted that they'll be bringing a lot of this stuff into the Remake trilogy, but I truly hope that whatever story they're telling doesn't get too overwhelmed with all of those elements.
One Timeline Chad theorist. 🗿 Yeah multiple timelines doesn't make sense in the FF7 world. I also think the terrier characters got erased when the beagle team came out of the singularity, but their memories carried over. That's why Cloud has memories of Tifa dying. Cloud's gonna be even more messed up.
Awesome video!
I totally disagree with Zack having an epic team up in part 3 or Aerith being revived, it’s not just loss that is the emotional resonance of FF7 it’s the permanence of that loss specifically, to undo, especially Aerith, you lose a central theme that makes the game so special.
Everything else though, was definitely an interesting perspective given how much I am wary and cautious of the remake project. Great video nonetheless 👌🏻
Neither teaming up nor Aerith surviving is my favorite option by a mile, but I reached that part of the script and just thought it’s a realistic expectation given the creatives in charge ha. And I admit that I have seen some stories that made me say “If they do X, I will absolutely hate it!” And then not completely hate it based on the execution.
TL;DR: just a bit of copium from me in that moment haha
I think one thing that would disprove or make any theory I've seen so far viable, is what happened to Survivor Zack's Cloud. We saw Zack drag Cloud back to Midgard afterall. Is there 2 Clouds now in 1 timeline? Is Zack and Cloud in a Second Timeline?
Loved this theory too. I will need to listen to it a couple of more times to make a complete opinion on it, but as far as I like some of these intakes I still do not understand what is Sephihroth's point in doing all of this following your reasoning.
If having Zack back, in the new "remade" reality is actually a benefit for our party, what is the plus for Sephiroth in doing all this? Was this the desperate call of the planet to contrast Sephiroth's doing as some believe or is this part of his plan?
There is still something missing I feel.
What we know from CC is that both Cloud AND Zack are the only two humans who possess pure S cells in their bodies. And what I mean is that they have his cells and they (apparently) did not react to them in the way like Genesis' clones did. If Zack being alive is what Sephiroth wanted it could point into the direction of messing with Cloud more but it might also be to have another plan with someone else who is injected with his own cells. To me Sephiroth intentions and Zack altered fate are the two most important holes that will need to find an answer. Once we understand better how these two things are connected I believe that is when we will be able to really understand what is going on in the story.
Also form what we know from AC, Sephiroth will not die until Cloud remembers him. What I think it might happen is that maybe Sephiorth's plan is to destroy Cloud (after he refused to "help" him at the Edge of Creation) and to have someone else as an anchor to come back in case he fails what he wants to do. And what better anchor (or horcrux let m say) than another person who shares his cells without degrading.
This is just an idea I formed in my mind after digging into deep lore myself but the opportunities they have with the ongoing path are indeed multiple. I can't wait for more thoughts on this!
Great comment. It’s been a long time since I published this and at the time, I went along with the consensus that Zack’s survival was an unintended consequence… that in all of Sephiroth’s scheming, he didn’t account for the destruction of the plot ghosts to result in Zack’s survival and eventual intervention that would ultimately defeat him. Lots of people theorized about Zack and Cloud teaming up in the end. But after the epiphany described in my latest video, I’ve come around to thinking this is all part of Sephiroth’s plan and the way he plans to use Zack will break us and Cloud even further.
Sorry I modified the comment cause the thinking was still ongoing! Thanks for the nice video again!!!
@@SubTXT_ yes if that is the plan I believe it could be based on the fact that Zack has S cells within himself too. But, his mind seemed very strong to resist Jenova, so maybe this could be the "problem" in Sephiroth plan: to not consider Zack as strong as he actually is. But when I write this it seems a little "too simple" of an explanation to be honest. Same story, If Zack survived thanks to the whispers, than the path seems to bring to a direct fight between Zack and Cloud, maybe to snap Cloud out of Sephiroth's control. But what after that? Thanks for the reply by the way! :)
Will tgere be 2 buster swords in 1 timeline?
Knowing Nomura, Zack will be alive as some mysterious black cloak character with some memory loss from traversing different timelines. Most likely we will have some convoluted storyline involving how Zack can’t exist in one timeline and we will need to send him back or end him. Why? Reasons…..and cuz it’s a Nomura trademark to subvert expectations for the sake of a cool cg movie moment.
It's important to remember that the writing in Kingdom Hearts is so, well, Nomurian because he's the writer of KH. But Kazushige Nojima is the writer of FF7 and FF7 Remake. Additionally, Nomura isn't even the director of the sequel games. He is involved as Creative Director, but he's far from the only voice in the room. He also came up with some of the best ideas in the original FF7. The OG's director wanted to kill off the entire party in the return to Midgar, and Nomura convinced him that was a bad idea. Check out the video "Defending Nomura" by Phillip Hartshorn. I'm not a fan of Kingdom Hearts craziness, but I think people are too harsh on his impact in FF7.
@@SubTXT_ Ohhh I’m well aware of those stories of Nomura along with that video. Personally for me, it’s a love hate relationship. I think he’s absolutely great with the creative and visual directing aspect of creating a game. However he’s terrible with scope creeping his vision hence why his games with him as a sole director takes roughly a decade. That’s why he needs a co-director. It’s like he has a great general idea for a main concept but is unable to fill in the details and ends up being convoluted since he’s known to keep adding clay to his work instead of stripping. In the end when I play a Nomura game my heart tells me it’s a cool fun game but my head tells me this doesn’t make any sense.
This video says it best - fans aren’t opposed to changes but not destroy the foundation. Now we aren’t discussing about the sequels since we don’t know what will happen. However we can discuss the foundations that Nomura started with Remake. It is also documented that Nojima and Nomura aren’t in the best of relations and quite often don’t see eye to eye with each other according to Kitase when they worked on FF7 together. Removing Kitase as the mediator of those two is what we got with Remake.
We can all point a finger in regard to the timeline, whispers and destiny crossroads to Nojima as a story writer. However let’s not pretend there isn’t a person who has the final say - Nomura. Kitase would have a final say over Nomura but he isn’t gonna question him creatively as a producer. I once read that with the Sephiroth boss battle was proposed by someone else after the meeting to Nomura personally, in which he approved and thought it was also a good idea. As a Japanese who worked under a Japanese company, I can assure you that there is always someone who has a final say especially if that person out positions you. In this case a director can easily say no to a writer and have him rework it until it gets approved.
I’m not familiar with Nojima’s writing style. However we can see similarities from Remake and KH. Destiny, alternate timelines, cloaked shadowy characters and people who supposedly are dead are never really dead. Sounds like a Nomura style of writing to me. If he wants to save a certain someone I would be fine. However I fundamentally disagree with Zack being saved. It literally destroys the hero’s journey of Cloud. Saving everyone isn’t necessarily a good thing in good story telling. He’s pretty much doing just that if you account for the infinite timeline possibilities. Where there is no cost there is no risk.
@@ruihanazawa2906 that’s fair. It’s a big reason I’ve thought so much about how they’ll use Zack. It’s potentially disastrous. Them releasing Crisis Core in between games, essentially signaling, “Hey everyone, find out the Truth about these characters histories” in between Remake and Rebirth strikes a lot of fear in my heart.
@@SubTXT_ That was my exact feelings too when I saw the remake of Crisis Core. It’s a huge worry for me to think they would introduce new players to him and would bring back Zack into the main game for the sequels for that very purpose. I shed tears playing Crisis Core when it was first released but now after the Remake Zack ending, I don’t have any feelings for that scene or the character now.
Mehhhhh they took away the beauty of passing the Buster Sword legacy with that subverting expectation nonsense. Still looking forward to the new game but I’m nervous. Heck they might as well change the ending of Crisis Core now since this game will be released after Remake and the Destiny crossroad has been destroyed.
Nice theory good job
How will there be 2 buster swords?
Also why are there 2 buster swords, it's angeal's family heirloom.
How about the sword? There are 2 buster swords?
I wonder if, Zack's journey throughout Midgar ends early as he realizes that Aerith and the rest of the party isn't around, he might either go to: Gongaga, Nibelheim or maybe Wutai because of Sonon.
Gongaga is his hometown, makes sense, but it would completely shift from the focus of the unreliable narrator.
Nibelheim is to retrace his steps once more and from there, go after the party.
As for Wutai, I find interesting only because of the whole ordeal we had to deal with Wutai in Crisis Core and maybe this might be explored further, maybe some members from that war might've survived and some may even remember Zack from the Fort invasion on Chapter 1 of CC
Awesome theory, I could totally get behind this
It's a good theory. 1 thing I want to know is are they going to bring back Genesis? When Weiss/Omega weapon are defeated by Vincent in DoC, Genesis makes a return, and left it on that easter egg. Maybe he too could aid in the fight against Sephiroth?
Also I really wanna know in the original time line why Genesis returned and what his purpose/intentions are.
So is there two Cloud in the timeline if Zack is able to meet the party later? I think it's two timelines and will eventually get intertwined somehow through the life stream that will get set up and prepare us for part 3. You can't have two Clouds walking in the same path like that if Zack is able to meet the main parties from Remake.
It's the biggest question I have about the single timeline theory that I have come to believe.
The consensus among those who believe it is that souls are singular elements in the world and hence can only exist within one body. In that case, it is possible that the versions of characters from the Terrier timeline die at some point. For example, Zack eventually realizes that the Cloud he's carrying has died or dies shortly after reaching Midgar. That may be who Zack is talking to in the trailer when he says, "Sorry, feel like I failed you." (realizing Cloud is dead). Which means Zack may think Cloud is dead and Cloud may think Zack is dead - making their inevitable meeting quite a crazy moment. The others may have died in the plate fall or some other moments in that remade timeline.
Multiple timelines are definitely much cleaner for solving that, but introduce a lot of other issues such as consequentiality and such. If there are two timelines, then what is there to stop there from being potentially infinite timelines? And if there are, then why does the way things play out in any one timeline matter in the long run?
Crazy idea, but hear me out...Everyone BUT Aerith dies.
Not as extreme as Sindel killing everyone in Mortal Kombat 9, but a handful of the heroes (perhaps what's left after some of them died individually at earlier points in the game) actually get to the City of the Ancients before Aerith (maybe valuing her as the last Cetra and only one capable of channeling Holy) and throw themselves at Sepiroth. They don't go in with a defeatist attitude (maybe even Cloud becoming proactive in taking his self-control back to give him determination), but they're primarily focused on buying Aerith time and know the odds are against them; maybe players play this battle out, but the only way to resolve it is for each party member to die against a Sepiroth that can only be defeated in a New Game + (and even then, still unreasonably hard). Everyone's dead, but Sepiroth didn't intercept Holy, so it winds up repelling Meteor as intended...but the Weapons are still running about and now have nothing else to do. Nature, as it did in the original game, reclaims The Planet, but much faster and more violent this time around; the pain and permanence of Aerith's death replaced with...um...the irreversible nature of consequences? Had Shinra thought ahead instead of falling back on The Promised Land, had Sepiroth thought of someone other than himself, then Cloud and Co wouldn't have needed to scramble so desperately in the 11th hour and arrived at a pretty crappy solution...Or just do what Crisis on Infinite Earths did with The Flash and say the longer one avoids their destiny, the worse things get.
Admittedly, 90% of this is just a shut-post and assumes Remake abandoned the idea that Jenova was acting on Sepiroth's behalf and Sepiroth wasn't in the Lifestream and unimpeded in jamming Holy, heh heh.
It's so cool how many people worship the OG FF7 from '97, and now the 2020 Remake sold 3.5 million copies in just the first 3 days.
That's what I call influential!
Yuffie is an overwhelmingly fan favorite character in Japan, where the game was obviously made
Interesting. I had asserted that she wasn’t, but was unaware of the Japanese POV
@@SubTXT_ All good! Yeah she characterizes a lot of Japanese tropes. She’s from Wutai, which is the game’s embodiment of Japan (with pagodas and such), but she also has that youthful, lighthearted energy you see a lot of the culture exhibit and be drawn to
part 1 didnt fixate on clouds broken mind it fixated on how the ghosts and aerith showed cloud future moments and clouds focus on his trauma with sephiroth.
zack isnt aeriths ex zack is aeriths dead bf.
also in zacks timeline he is alive but so is cloud so if zack meets the other cloud does that mean there wil be 2 clouds?
If they keep having everyone survive everything, it is going to SEVERLY subtract from the emotional impact and darkness of the story.
Some people have to die in shitty ways. Sometimes you won't be able to say bye the way you want to, if at all.... That was kinda the point.
I very much agree. I always saw the FF7 story as about dealing with loss. Cloud losing his home and his identity. Aerith losing her mother. Tifa losing her father and hometown. Barret losing Corel, Dyne, Avalanche. Red losing his father. it goes on and on. I want that to remain. I fear them bending over the please fans.
Watching this after I saw the summer games Rebirth trailer, especially because within the first moments of it, the news caster says Sectors “ZERO, 1, & 2.”👀✨
This is really cool ! I like this theory my personal idea that I had rn playing crisis core reunion is that zack will be the final boss of rebirth (manipulated by seph) and cloud will have to kill him.
Thanks for your theory, I really like it! But I have a question. Does Zack know Elmyra? She isn't mentioned in Crisis Core Reunion, is she? After just finishing that Game I think it would be more likely for Zack to look for Tseng or Cissnei. But from there on Zack could also get into this whole Shinra and Deepground stuff.
Maybe you're doing another video now that Crisis Core Reunion is out. I tried to watch out for the differences between now and 2007/2008 but yeah no, my memorie isn't that good. ... but the PSP is there laying around so who knows.
He definitely knows OF Elmyra. In the secret cutscene in the OG, he talks out his options in the back of the truck on the way to Midgar and when he thinks of staying with Aerith he says, "Oh no, the mom lives there." But there is no canon scene of him meeting Elmyra (though Elmyra definitely knows of Zack because of how she reacts to Cloud's SOLDIER status in Remake).
Big whisper daddy got a chuckle out of me
🤔
What if Sephiroth kills Cloud instead of Aeris?
After all, he knows what happens if she joins with the livestream.
However, this time we could have a sidequest in which we can bring back Cloud. Like what happened with Chrono in Chrono Trigger.
So its obviously two timelines, why? Because two Buster Swords and also two Clouds.
It kills me how everyone talks about Zack, but no-one mentions the second Cloud. Zack is still burdened by him because Cloud, without the experience of watching Zack die and becoming his living legacy, simply doesn’t have the strength of will to shake off Jenovas influence so he’s still an invalid. He will likely be the puppet of Sephiroth in rebirth.
i’ll be honest, im a huge zack lover thanks to crisis core, but seeing him alive at the end of ff7r made me terrified that the entire story was now going to become some jumbled mess of timelines that make no sense with the core story of ff7. now i feel so relieved knowing that there are possibilities where he could be utilized in the games in ways that dont completely mess with the story, so thank you king!! i really hope to see cloud lose his mind!! :)
Ok all of that is nice but wouldn’t there be two clouds? The one that zack carried and the one we played with.
My theory is their is actually 3 Sephiroth's. 1 being the illusion one created by Clouds mind. 2nd being a future Sephiroth who has travelled back to this point in time and appears to have a clarity to him. This is the one that opens the portal to the whispers and that Cloud and gang fight at the end. Finally the 3rd being current Sephiroth from this time who is sealed in the crystal. This one is still insane. Basically future Sephiroth tricked the party into destroying the Harbinger of Fate who is trying to keep the timeline on the same path as it went in original FF7. We see this by everytime something happens that goes against the original timeline the whispers intervene such as Barret's death. By killing it now the timeline can drastically change. As for how this will go for Zack I'm not sure yet but what people seem to gloss over though is Zack making his way back to Midgar WITH Cloud in tow. A Cloud that never assumed the identity of SOLDIER. To me it's clear that current and future Sephiroth are invading the Cloud's we play as mind due to the Jenova cells he has but what if Sephiroth just needs Cloud and it doesn't need to be *SOLDIER* Cloud? The Cloud that Zack is carrying with him is going to play a pivotal role as well iirc. Just my 2 cents.
Oooh interesting. I'm sure they said that some events and destinations would happen in a different order. So meeting Zack in his home town could actually be written to be placed later on in the game o_O;
I'm personally of the belief that after talking with Elmyra, Zack will try to infiltrate the Shinra building as well, but after realizing Aerith isn't there anymore, he will be confronted by Tsung.
Gameplay wise you probably have to fight Tseng for a little bit, and after defeating him, you ask him where are they holding Aerith, where Tseng will probably tell Zack that she escaped or "got kidnapped" with/by a group called avalanche.
Feeling conflicted due to his recent past as a Shinra fugitive and test subject, Zack would likely not believe Tseng, but would eventually be convinced (my guess is either by being showed where Aerith was being held, or perhaps by talking with Cissnei)
I think Zack will end up helping the Turks for the first part of the game hunt down avalanche, maybe only coming face to face with Barret AND Red, until finally seeing that cloud and tifa are part of avalanche and that Aerith joined them willingly
I don't know if a Zack / Tseng fight would be too interesting, but it's very plausible that his connection to the Turks could lead him to us. Maybe even the return of Cissnei.
@@SubTXT_ Maybe not a fight but at least some sort of Face to Face meeting
this is an interesting idea. I think it's a back to the future situation.
Okay those are all very interesting theories you have about Zack's role in FF7 Rebirth. What I hope happens is Zack somehow WILL come across Cloud and the others at some point cause Cloud could really use his help right now about his messed up mind and being Sephiroth's puppet because of the mako poisoning Hojo did to him for his sick reunion experiment. Also I hope Zack really will be the one to save Aerith somehow. I just hope part 3 won't take as long to release after part 2 cause right now they're working on both.
I'm pretty sure the dmw was a deep ground project that was being tested on Zack. And it's what killed him. It took his experience. It leveled him without any natural progression, and it provided dramatic benefits that should have a cost like invincibility. But what if the dmw consumed his mind to give him power? Why it breaks and he loses. He has no power without it as it took all of his experience. That's how I see it anyway.
That’s interesting. Is there anything in canon that describes that? Because the DMW always seemed to just show up…but maybe I didn’t pay enough attention. It would make sense as a Deepground invention though considering it’s experiments it allowing digital consciousnesses to control bodies like the reveal about Weiss at the end of Dirge.
Well, a new video came out today. Seems like zack didn't go to the shrina building since aerith was already laying somewhere random. But dang, the deepground part sounds really good, but now, since thats out now we dont know where they're going with these deepground stuff lol
Also dont forget that Square Enix has to add a Jenova back-story. It will be epic!
Im not sure if im understanding your theory right. You believe just cloud and party was sent to zack time if so it is said that 3 months passed between zack death and the plate fall so my did it take zack so long to see aeirth?
If its all of midgar why did they have to go to that other plain again? And of course where is 2nd cloud during rebirth unless you saying 1st cloud will die and tifa will have 2nd cloud
I have yet to see confirmation or sourcing of that 3-month timeframe. I've seen that on the Fandom Wiki timeline, but have never seen the source for it. I've always struggled with the 3-month timing. Even if we assume the 3-month timing is true, then what the heck was Cloud doing for 3 months? In the scene where Tifa tells her side of meeting Cloud in Midgar, she finds him collapsed in the Sector 7 train station. Why did it take him 2-3 months to get from Zack to there also?
As for the multiple Cloud question, it's my biggest question about the single "remade" timeline theory as well. Most believe that Cloud just succumbs to his Mako poisoning and dies, which could be when Zack says his line from the trailer, "Sorry, feels like I failed you." (realizing the Cloud he's been carrying has died).
Okay before I actually watch the video I'm going to go ahead and state this now: theory about him surviving well before integrade and my first version of the theory suspected that he was the other Cloud that we saw in the ground that The whispers wiped their memories of. I now believe that was more of a psychological tick and not really him seeing himself or by extension Zack.
My revised theory actually uses a certain very particular note from the world's preview book. In this book is a timeline which among other things happens to you list in meticulous and revised detail the full timeline of before crisis. The reason why this is interesting is it actually made a number of revisions and retcons to the before crisis timeline. Such as when exactly the Wutai war ended, what years Reno and Rufus were born, what year rude was born, the exact dates of specific events such as when the Turks received the order to save Zack no matter what... Which curiously is placed several weeks after Zack is supposed to die on September 17th. It then goes into the most excruciating detail in terms of a timeline for the dates of October 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th and 6th. October 4th is when cloud is found all by himself in sector 7. During this time the church received the orders to save Zack, the leader of the Turks and the leader of avalanche are both executed presumably publicly in Sector 5. A high speed Chase begins in proximity to the Sector 5 Church and leads all the way into midgar itself through the train tracks and ends up onto the streets. Those participating in this high-speed chase include the player Turk, cisnei, and multiple avalanche aligned anti-soldier Ravens.
Immediately after this detail cloud is discovered by Tifa. This is then followed by the church suddenly going to exile,Tseng Reno and rude are arrested. Those three are then put on trial. October 6th: rufusion represents a case saving those three Turks.
Then it suddenly jumps over to December 12th: jade weapon is slain in icicle inn.
December 12th: the first bombing mission of reactor 1 begins.
So my working theory from this is Zack is on the Northern continent. Or if not there specifically he is with at least one of the Turks in exile.
I do believe his party will include Kyrie and Lester at some point. I would not be surprised if Nayo ends up in his party under her actual name Nellie. In whatever case I am absolutely certain that Zack will have at least one turk in his party. Though I suspect we won't actually get to see those Turks in action. I do however expect to see those Turks in the story. I'm down specifically I'm looking forward to knives. The other one that I would really look forward to is Able. I might be recalling the name wrong, but he is basically a right handed much younger 'Reno'.
As I'm watching and I'm currently at the sephiroth inserting himself a lot tidbit, I just want to point out real quick in the nomora written ultimania Omega from the 15th anniversary: the voice and clouds had in all those scenes in the original game is Zack. But now in remake every single one of those scenes now has Sephiroth instead. Cloud can't even hear Zack's name. Since the dead can attach themselves to you in your memories... Zack had to be alive from the start of this remake adventure, after all, the whispers are in the past present and future wherever they may be.
As an example of this, Reeve describes the ending of remake (whispers swirl around Shinra building) as something that happens every single night around the same time ever since x event, and that he feels like it has always happened. Info told to Vincent in Dirge is changed over time in the same way Wutai info is changed over time, as if the truth is being altered in front of us with the characters oblivious to it.
And then there's the particle snow after beating the whispers.
In BC, DC, the original, and in Remake, the particle snow happens to highlight an event. Jade Weapon or the big bad from the proto materi being destroyed. Whisper arbiter defeat. Omega weapon being destroyed. The only time it doesn't happen is crisis core, I suspect. But I may actually be wrong about that.
If we base off what we see in his brief timeline switch Zach just defeated the Shinra squad sent to kill him and Cloud and clearly he survived where he once died. Thus he has yet to meet Aerith and as he walks off cloud is nit with him and what we seen when the left midgar was only what Cloud remembered