DOES ARMSPEED EQUAL DISTANCE?!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- In an ideal world a video like this would be made indoors, with a robot arm. But, until that happens, I thought I'll give it a try. I was pretty surprised by the results honestly. I didn't think that the different discs would actually make a difference for really slow throws. But they do. My next video should be how to throw a disc properly. I just need to figure out how to teach that... hmm.
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Disc manufacturers: we need a machine that can accurately throw different speeds to test our discs.
Germany: we give you Simon
On that note, do those machines exist? Been thinking about that
@@reallyjolle Simon Lizotte exists
German Engineering at its finest
Well done sir, well done.
@@reallyjolle There have been a few slinger-type machines, but nothing that will launch a disc at close to 150km/h.
It’s mind blowing to me how you can accurately judge your speed throwing. 🤯
“My discs just fly differently.” That’s the biggest understatement of the century. You’re in a crazy different world class than the rest of us mortals, Simon. Epic.
The ability to throw such consistent shots and also just stand still and throw a driver 400+ feet is mind boggling. Goes to show what practicing every day and focusing on the right things can do. Simon is a huge inspiration
When you both threw the putter he threw an "s" while you threw more hyzer. The spin, form, release angle and nose angle all affect the flight of a disc not just arm speed. Thank you for doing this video! These are very insightful for the am to study and find the flaw in our games. The process of elimination is good when you know what to areas to work on.
The putter is less prone to nose angle as well with it's blunt edge. You can throw a putter a little nose up and it won't change the distance much. Also I'm not sure if Simon power gripped his putter shot compared to the other guy (sorry I forgot his name). That will effect the amount of spin on a shot, compared to a fan grip.
Spin and nose angle are the biggest factors. For instance a FH shot is nearly always going to be lower spin then a BH shot. So it will fade sooner and drop out of the air quicker.
Discs can also have wobble or Off Axis Torque. If one disc is wobbling even slightly more then another it will not be as aerodynamic through the air. With a putter or Mid this will also be a less of a factor since they are not as sensitive to the aerodynamics. Then of course spin is going to stabilize the disc as well even if it's slightly wobbling, so higher spin is another benefit so the disc flies more aerodynamically optimal.
What could be cool after this episode is an interview/discussion with the staff at discmania in charge of the technical design of the discs.
Spin resists change in disc orientation relative to the trajectory. The angle the disc is thrown 5-10 degrees above horizon is the key for optimal distance. I'm sure each disc has a specific optimal angle. Angle of attack changes the air resistance presented to the disc.
Also each disc presents a different frontal area when traveling up than when traveling back to earth. For the high speed portion the disc has a tiny silhouette presented to the air stream but as it starts to fall to earth it presents a bigger silhouette to the air acting like a parachute I guess.
Try filming perpendicular to the disc trajectory to see the affect the trajectory has on each disc.
👍You're talking drag coefficient. That's why my Prius on the highway (not using regenerative breaking) gets 50mpg and a similar sized, but less aerodynamic car only gets 40 mpg)
The more concentrated the weight is towards the outer edge of the disc, the more it will act like a flywheel with high rotational inertia, resisting forces that try to push it off of its initial plane. Putters and midranges are, thus, more resistant to their pitch and roll changing due to turn and fade, the precessional forces due to the upward forces at the nose of the disc and towards the tail. The effect of these forces is felt on the left and right sides of the disc rather than the back and front due to the spin of the disc and how the acceleration adds velocity to the spinning system.
Wider-rimmed discs will have greater fade due, generally, to the redirectional shape of the nose of the disc as well as their lower rotational inertia. However, having lower resistance to changing the plane of the disc also means that drivers precess more due to the downward airflow at the tail of the disc, or turn, and their ability to maintain faster airspeed for longer contributes to this airflow and a longer turning line. Overall, discs with wider rims will tend to fly with less neutrality, turning more at the highest speeds and fading more at the lower ones. This is evident in the fact that putters and midranges finish, at low speeds, much straighter than drivers. This can also be seen in the video around 11:15 where he throws the P2 quite flat, and it shows a very straight path with little flip and fade, whereas the DD3 clearly flips up from hyzer at a lower release speed and fades hard.
The difference in distance really is due to the difference in cross-sectional area. Putters displace the most air, which means they can glide at the slowest speeds, but it also means they lose much more energy to drag at higher speeds. This is also why popped up versions of discs are more glidey: they displace slightly more air than flat-top discs, which allows them to generate more downward lifting force after that air flows off the tail of the disc, but also increases their drag at all speeds. That greater drag slows the disc down faster, and slow-moving drivers fade, so this is why poppy discs generally feel more overstable.
@@MaxLBogue HI max I liked most of what you said. But for wide rim disc the neutrality depends on rim shape not just rim length.
Extreme overstable discs like the Tilt have a flatter tops with a high parting line. This results in the lift being forward of center which wants to "Tilt" the disc nose up. But the disc is spinning so the disc Tilts to the left (BH)
Understable discs have a low parting line and are often domey.
This results in the lift backward of center which wants to "Tilt" the disc nose down but the disc it spinning so the disc Tilts to the right (BH)
Neutral discs have a center of lift at the center of gravity so there is no tilt.
However as discs slow down the angle of attack changes which move the center on lift forward.
Which is why they fly more overstable with a noodle arm or at the end of flight and fade.
Discs like the Nova and most slow discs have more consistent netrality over a range of angle of attacks so you don't see much fade and the end of flight.
Decreasing spin near the end of flight also adds to the increased fade.
@@snikwahjets Yes, rim shape is important. Overstable discs with high parting lines will push far more air down at the front, causing an upward force on the nose and early fade at high speeds due to the precession of that force 90 degrees towards the direction of spin. Similarly, understable discs with low parting lines will cause more air to flow downwards at the tail of the disc due to the no-slip condition, causing a greater lifting force on the tail which precesses towards the direction of spin causing turn. Neutral discs have a balance of these two forces, and slower discs can be more neutral as I mentioned due to their greater gyroscopic stability. Spin decrease is negligible; the biggest reason for fade at the end of the flight is that the disc has begun to move downwards, pushing the bottom of the leading rim onto the air with an equal and opposite force pushing back up, with the precession of said upwards force causing fade. Overstable discs are designed to take advantage of this effect throughout the whole flight with their rims that direct most of the air downwards, but you'll notice discs of all stability levels will have rims directing airflow in different ways to balance out their lifting forces. Again, putters and midranges have less fade even when dropping at the end of their flight partially due to the decreased lifting area of the front of the rim on such discs, but mostly due to their increased gyroscopic stability. Catch discs like the Discraft Ultrastar take this to an extreme, given that they have an unbeveled edge; there is barely any lifting surface on the front rim to cause fade, so they are normally very true to their angle on the descent.
This is the thread to read boys.
It probably has a lot to do with angle control and the spin. I have noticed that Garrett Gurthie almost always measures less MPH than if you say Eagle does, but seems to throw it almost as far.
Maybe his unique form generates more spin than the others, so he can throw further with less speed. Of course he has world class distance lines, but still, seems interesting topic to make more tests.
I dont think spin equates to distance actually, more spin means more stability which would mean less distance, I think there is a perfect threshold of enough spin for the disc to fly smooth and consistent and then too much spin to where you start losing distance because of added stability. I remember when I first started playing I thought I had lots of power because I was turning over firebirds, but it's just because they were coming out with little spin, a little wobbly and the added turbulence would turn them over. Once I started throwing smoother and with more spin, less wobble, I actually lost quite a bit of distance for a bit because I was no longer getting the turn out of those stable discs
@@austinmoser5056 Stability in disc gold is a misnomer. More spin equals more actual stability, as in resistance to change.
@@dustman96 Indeed. I was very confused when I was introduced to disc golf as the terms over and under stable make no sense in the realm of physics.
Correct. more spin means more stability but and makes a disc more understable.
@@dustman96 true, but my overall point still stands then. The reason Garret can throw just as far without as much speed is because he has less spin which means gets more turn and overall more distance
Just from my own experience, when I started letting my arm whip by keeping it and my wrist loose, the spin factor went way up and I gained significant (30% at least) distance immediately. Obviously nose angle is a huge factor. I'm wondering if in this video the speed gun measures the actual arm speed or the disc release speed? Disc release speed is way faster than arm speed if the whip happens. Interesting stuff! Also, faster spin creates more lift on the left side of the disc if it's RHBH throw, so the disc goes straighter longer for sure.
There are a couple of places in the video where the radar gun briefly shows a much slower speed before picking up the disc speed. Those could be cases where it caught the arm before the disc.
This one example with your buddy: i think the difference was his air bounce because of nose up angle and pull through.
And like i a comment down below: we need a disc throw machine like a Football Passing one. I think about that for years now to really determine flight numbers! Speeds, Nose- and Wing Angles (Hyzer->Anhyzer) and height release points. Great Video Idea. Enjoyed it! Greets from Hannover Germany 🙌🏼
This blows my mind! I can't believe you can throw a disc so close to a pre-determined speed. I've never tried this. Very interesting. Simon you are amazing!
The best analytic video of disc-golf throwing I have seen so far. My takeaway is: one does not necessarily need to reach higher speeds to extend driver flights, one can instead focus on improving form so that drivers fly farther than lower speed discs.
@Simon Lizotte try the "slow is smooth and smooth is far" myth. Foundation did it and found a slower run up lead to faster throws. I want to see if that is true for those with "perfect" form too or if there's a good enough form that going faster matches or increases distance and throw velocity.
Would be sick to have Casey on for that aswell, since he has a very "fast" run-up
Its not that they were throwing faster because of the slow run up, it is that their timing was much better leading to better results. That is why pros can add up to 20 mph on a 360 throw. Their timing is that much better that they can actually increase the speed of their run ups and gain speed/distance.
In that video they also had a speed gun, and the distance and speed were totally correlated. They were generating more arm speed with slower run ups, as well as more distance (and probably also way more accuracy).
The saying should be something like "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast, and fast is far". "Smooth" basically meaning "well-timed" + "loose" (not overstrained).
Every musician talks about how "if you wanna play fast, you first have to learn to play slow". You learn the correct technique (which almost always involves loose wrists, shoulders, etc) at very slow tempos (as slow as you need to do it correctly), then speed up gradually. If you try to overs-tension your muscles to squeeze out faster notes, you will hit a wall quickly and likely also learn a bunch of terrible habits that you eventually have to un-learn if you wanna get better.
Disc golf is the same. If you're trying to change your technique, you have to start slowly. That said, if you wanna learn do huge fast run-ups or 360s, you also have to practice those, but they are very unlikely to help you throw farther if you don't already have solid technique with standstills and slow run-ups.
I am 61 ( almost 62 ) years old, and my "average" max distance is about 240-250 feet. My max distance from a stand still position is 270 feet, have only reached that like 3 times. So looking at the results of your experiment, that really speaks to me because now I know that "form" is really the key to gaining greater distance. Either from a standstill, or from a short / long run up. I wonder if throwing sidearm would make any difference at all???
Good vid, definitely form/spin on the disc. That shot of the day was hilarious, dude looks like he actually knew it was gonna happen.
I'd like to see the actual disc speed for each player at 10 or 20ft out of the hand.
As soon as a disc leaves the hand, it immediately starts losing speed. #physics
I had this same question come.up in baseball. A ball doesn't gain velocity after it exits the hand. It immediately starts slowing down.
@@Bigticket2510 But how much slower is the really interesting thing.
We need this redone with a Techdisc! That would show so much with the spin rate and nose angle!
Spin and aerodynamics come into play at even speeds. The nose and ejection angle are much cleaner on your throw. You pull on your line the entire throw when he has more lateral flatter angles of release. The rpm is greater when you throw probably a third more than his. This maintains a tight flight all the way through the path. This was an eye opening test that will undoubtedly help people understand efficiency. Thank you Simon for the great work. Your ability is awesome 😎
So impressed by your ability to hit the speed within a couple MPH like every time!
Also, I'm impressed by how little effort you put into 60 mph!
His hyzered out a lot faster than yours... which I believe happens when it runs out of spin... so I think it's mostly spin in this instance and maybe a bit of nose angle. His ended up a little higher.
I believe it is a combo of spin and off axis torque. If the disc is spinning faster it will hold flight characteristics longer which is pretty common knowledge. The off axis torque (wobble) is something I see a lot in lower rated players and this can greatly increase the relative drag on the disc. If two objects are thrown at the same forward velocity (such as arm speed) but simons is thrown in a way that experiences less drag, it will go further than the am who throws with less spin, more OAT, and thus more drag. Just my thought. Great vid!
It is everything. Grip, Spin, run up speed, hips engaging and transferring power. So many factors.
thats insane you can calibrate your arm speed that well, true master of the craft
Definitely a holistic approach when it comes to disc golf I think. I believe having the form, timing and consistency is what it comes down to. Awesome video as always Simon!
Thanks for another great video!
I'm pretty sure the doctor who did surgery on your elbow installed hydraulic cylinder.. That's insane precision Simon!
Could you show us in a new video what type of grip and where you place your hand on the disc? Is it 2- 3 o'clock, or 12?
Would be awesome to compare your techniques on this detail, to see if that has anything to do with getting more spin.
Hands down, your most informative video yet. Cheers from Arizona.
This is definitely something I was wondering about.. .! Good share 👍 much love from Canadian proud get outdoors 🙏
Two things that affect the distance from a throw: 1) initial release velocity, and 2) the initial revolutions per minute (or per second) that have been exerted on said disc.
Obviously this is assuming the same disc is used, winds are the same, level ground, etc.
The angle of release obviously affects the measured distance as well, but a particular angle of release for maximum distance to a specific disc will remain the same as long as it adjusts proportionally to the increase in understability throughout the discs usage.
The things are all determined by the individuals form and the levers they possess and how mechanically efficient they are able to transfer the kinetic energy from their body to the disc itself.
In my opinion, this is why some players experience larger distances in the beginning of their career when throwing forehand vs. backhand. It is easier to be more mechanically efficient in a forehand than a backhand, and in a forehand one generally produces greater spin (higher rpm's) on a disc contrary to the backhand throw.
However when throwing backhand a player utilizes much more muscle mass in the throw, and when the muscle mass is utilized efficiently (mechanically) greater distance will be achieved when throwing backhand. This increase in distance is a result in proper utilization of muscle mass/body limbs and is a result of proper disc golf throwing form.
Spin on a disc gives the disc more rotational inertia (orthogonal or perpendicular to the revolution of a disc) and greater rotational inertia is required for a disc that is more overstable.
More or less, and increase in spin on the disc results in an increase in inertia which results in the disc "dumping" later in the flight.
The question everyone should ask to throw farther is this: "How can I be more mechanically efficient to transfer more of my body's energy into the disc?"
Simon does this exceptionally well (he has a little more experience throwing than most) and is more mechanically efficient.
Better form = increase in mechanical efficiency = better transfer of energy to the disc.
To be clear, better form = better timing and everything that form comprises.
Please feel free to question my comment here, it is beneficial to be skeptical and create scenarios in which the information may be inaccurate (though I don't believe it is) it will help us all to better understand the physics of disc flight.
Do you think it's easier to create more spin with a forehand or was that a typo?
Danny L did a video that showed forehands have significantly less rpms.
I personally find it hard to add enough spin to a golf disc forehand. Even though I favour forehands in Ultimate.
@@snikwahjets I think he was referring to "beginners" being able to get more RPM on a forehand vs a backhand
Firstly, if you could please tell me the title of the video, I would love to give it a watch, I love his videos and have seen most of them.
Additionally, short answer is that it is likely Danny and I would agree on this topic, and my comment was not a thorough enough of an explanation.
Essentially how I view this (and am fairly confident on this however I could be mistaken) is disc golf form acts more or less like a coefficient to the players transfer of energy to the disc. I am unsure how familiar you might be with the idea of a mathematical coefficient (or physics, etc.).
Let's take Simon Lizotte for instance: He is able to throw far on backhand because he has great form and a lot of practice throwing.
I on the other hand lack an immense amount of his experience throwing and therefore cannot throw very far (i.e. my form still sucks but I like to think it is improving) and for reference, I am about 6'5" and have a very similar body type to Thomas Gilbert, or maybe Ricky Wysocki.
The only difference between Simon Lizotte (not necessarily true but for simplicity's sake) is how mechanically efficient we are in transferring energy to the disc we happen to be throwing.
If I generate 100 units of throwing energy and so does Simon, then it must be that Simon can destroy my distance because I do not have as good of form as he does and thus cannot throw as far.
Let's say that Simon is about 80% mechanically efficient and I am about 45% - 50% mechanically efficient (on backhand).
This means that (because we both produce 100 units of throwing energy) and Simon has 80% efficiency while I have 47.5% efficiency, we get this: 100 x 0.475 = 47.5 distance units and Simon will have 100 x 0.8 = 80 distance units.
The key is that second number (0.475 and 0.8), THAT is the coefficient which is disc golf form (again on backhand in this example).
HOWEVER, as stated previously, beginners or average Joes SEEM to be more mechanically efficient initially when throwing a forehand, and thus their distance might be greater when throwing than when throwing backhand.
This is because it is easier to be more efficient on forehand than backhand (generally speaking), but this slowly goes away with experience and players will likely be able to throw farther after some time when throwing backhand.
Basically, from what you said, I am sure Danny is right, but the secret is how efficient everyone is when throwing.
A backhand will generate more spin, but ONLY if the person is EFFICIENT, and much more often than not, people cannot throw efficiently which is why they are left wanting to throw farther (and begin to work on throwing form).
Hopefully that makes some level of sense to at least someone, but that is what I believe to be true. Ask away any other questions or contrary thoughts!
@@jodypowell5375 OK fair enough. If youve never thrown a frisbee but thrown baseballs as a kid you might get more spin forehand. If you try to throw like push putt you can get close to no spin.
I was thinking of new ultimate players. They can quickly get some nice spin with backhand but will struggle for months trying to throw a forehand into a slight headwind.
@@rowan1043 as requested. I wish the series carried on. th-cam.com/video/8Nsoh9XPsyE/w-d-xo.html
BH average 24.3 RPS
FH average 14.75 RPS
(@60mph)
During a standard backhand you naturally rotate your grip ~180° during the release. And it happens quickly just by holding on to the the disc
Forehand requires more effort and flexibilty to cock the wrist back 90° plus good timing to get the snap.
There also alot of videos telling you how to increase the spin on FH shots. Are there many for BH?
Next try to examine different throws with same speed. The nose angle, how high you throw, hyzer/anhyzer, glide, fade etc. That would be cool
I love this video - i really like all these comparisons
This is probably my favorite video you have put out Simon, and you have put out a lot of high quality content. It is super interesting the arm-speed vs. distance (and spin rate). Definitely explains one of the main differences (I think) between most pros and amateur disc golfers
I really appreciate this. As a newer player, your slower throws give me some realistic goals for now
Sick video! Thanks for all your content Simon, this is my favorite yet and the perfect example of why you have the most subscribers in disc golf. And that speed control, jfc man, so impressive!!
Yeah it really is a combination of all the key points you mentioned working together. You can make up for one area that your lacking by overdriving in one of the other areas, but you are either gonna wear yourself out psychically and mentally or give up accuracy and consistency. No matter what way you look at it it's gonna come down to repetition and removing variables that don't work for your own individual body mechanics.. There really is no easy way to gain distance overnight..I just started playing disc golf last year and have never thrown a frisbee in my life. I can throw further then most amatuers and can keep up with the pros distance, but I am compensating by over muscling the disc..That's why I usually lose tournaments from being in the lead to going down to the middle. I'm a big guy and I get worn out quick and the guy thats not wearing himself out and stays more accurate usually gets me by round 2...I'm just starting to get ahold of the idea of effortless distance..Some days it just all clicks and I feel like I barely try and I throw even further then before with less energy used. Other days I completely forget how i did it and I go back to muscling the disc again...About another year or so I should be dialed in to were I can repeat it everytime I play.
Release point is also huge. I think Simon gets the full range with disc in hand, while others may have an early release (certainly my problem!). Spin on disc, nose angle, angle to ground, and release point ALL play a big role, and Simon nails all four.
Difference in distance drives with same armspeed is almost certainly down to release (hyzer/anhyzer) or nose angle (nose up, nose down). Given sufficient spin to avoid the disc wobbling at least. Spin can help carry the disc a liiittle bit further after it has started falling, but not a whole lot. Spin also increases almost linearly with releaes velocity, so it's unlikely that the spin rates are wildly different if you're throwing the discs equally fast.
Nose up will be similar to deploying flaps on an airplane wing, essentially trading forward speed for lift, but if the disc starts wanting to travel upwards, the shear force of gravity will increase. And it's "shear force", not "sheer force". Shear force is what makes it harder to push things uphill even though gravity remains constant. At a 30% upwards shot, you get exactly half of gravity directly counteracting the velocity of the disc, so it will decelerate by 4.9m/s (or 16ft/s). Quite substantial, and wholly the reason why it's so damn hard to throw far uphill. A nose up shot will also cause the disc to hyzer out earlier, because the center of pressure will be much farther forward on the disc. This also happens when throwing uphill btw, so discs appear more overstable when throwing upwards.
Nose down will produce a more understable flight because more air flows over the top of the disc (read up on Bernouli's principle and the Coandâ effect to figure out why this matters for flippiness), but also less drag, because the bevel of the disc will not be striking directly into the wind. Nose down shots will always go further than nose up shots, assuming same release velocity and hyzer/anhyzer angle.
For maximum distance, the nose angle must be close to flat or nose down. Anything else will increase drag and reduce distance on the type of bevelled-edge discs we're using today. More beginner-friendly discs tend to have less sharply angled bevels, so will be less affected by being thrown nose-up. Spin, so long as it's sufficient, is *almost* irrelevant for distance. There's some evidence that a "swirling vortex" effect can affect the glide of discs, but insofar as I understand it, that effect isn't heavily influenced by spinrate and the effect of it is barely a rounding error compared to the glide produced by airflow over the disc.
3 parts to this:
1. spin. Spin keeps the disc drifting longer (stable) as Simon said.
2. disc shape. The shape determines how well it cuts the wind. This is why faster speed discs go further.
3. skip. Skip is under the umbrella of disc shape; the wide rim gives a large surface for skips. When a disc is spinning fast and has a wide rim, you get a skip that increases your distance by 2-5%
This video is epic. As a new player, this really helps reinforce that form and consistency are just as important, if not more, than power. Thanks!
It’s because the faster the disc the more sensitive the flight is to spin and nose angle. Everyone says “speed” of disc you should be using is gated by arm speed (partially true), but it’s a lot more about nose angle. That’s why new players say “all my discs fly the same distance” (all are nose up) but with Simon he has good spacing at all speeds. As it turns out, throwing nose down is one of the most difficult things to do in the sport.
What a great video. Thanks, Simon!
Dude this was super informative and pretty enjoyable as well, crazy technique and form. 👍
Heh, the comparison from 7:15 onwards was a fantastic showcase. Didn't catch the other guy's name (Ryvis?), but their shot looked like it was thrown really low, then air bounced up way above the tree tops due to nose up, and just died, while Simon's throw was nice and level, never going too high vs. the trees, and didn't suffer from nose up. Spin etc. of course also play a role, but nose angle and keeping the flight from ballooning was likely the main culprit on that specific throw. =)
Hi Simon. Just gotta say my favorite shots are backhand anny sky bombs that flatten out and glide
Fantastic content. This was such a great video. You showed the differences in wider rims between the different types of discs. Then additionally showing the effective ranges reached with good technique. Thank you.
Nose angle is my best guess since y’all’s putters were the same but the drivers were so different (putters are more forgiving on nose angle)
Recently I changed my form. Slowed down my walk in, reduced my reach-back but upped my spin rate. Arm speed feels like it increased but my distance and accuracy have definitely increased. So much so that I'm now incorporating a spin putt for longer distance putts. Spin is King!
You're looking at an air bounce throw vs a clean swing. The air bounce is nose up regardless. When comparing the 2 different drives. The form was the determining factor in the distance difference. He threw nose up, and you threw flat.
Nose angle is huge on distance.
And overall angle controls.
Spin helps the disc stay on flight to stall and apex, after apex, the disc hits its fade phase.
Spin doesn't necessarily equal distance, it equals disc control over distance.
I think the two main factors to distance are arm speed and angle of attack of the disc relative to it's course. However, spin is very much going to affect angle during the course of the flight. Gyroscopic procession created by spin will alter the angle of the disc at different RPM. The disc moves through the air like a wing, the shape of it creating lift and the angle of the disc(wing) affecting drag. Arm speed, spin, angle at the moment of release dictate what the disc does over it's flight. I think Simon's good form/timing creates a disc(wing) that flies cleaner, with less drag, and flatter relative to it's course, for more of it's flight. He and other select players optimize what the disc can do. And it seems like more of the furthers throwers appear to be the smoothest, the various levers and hinges moving at the right time to be most efficient.
Great video! Adding graphs will help visualize your experimental numbers. As for flight affecting factors. Exit velocity with direction. Nose angle is important to help understand lift and drag. angular velocity (spin) adds angular momentum and gyroscopic stability which can help understand how the disc will gyroscopically precess about an axis. Not exactly sure which axis, it may be related to gravitational axis, lift vector on the disc and the discs rotational axis. off axis torque may cause slight wobbles with these higher speed drives which may cause the disc to lift less efficiently as it moves through the air.
When Simon threw at 40mph and the distance driver went farther, it was the only one he released on anhyzer. While arm speed and the disc speed do kind equal distance, there are too many variables like wind, the angle released, how much spin you put on it, even the elevation you are throwing on.
A quick example of variable is that I can throw 400' my brother can throw 220' both backhand. If we both grab a DD3 and I throw it flat, at the same speed he throws an anyzer, he will get more distance because of the angle.
Still an interesting video, always happy to see Simon.
One hint may be the spinning top toy. The faster it spins the more it holds true to it’s designed action and it’s resistance to outside forces. Tap it while it’s spinning fast vs tap it while spinning slow. What happens? Faster spin on a disc keeps its flight as intended resisting outside forces. (Wind, leaves, gravity, etc)
It’s spin and nose angle. It seems like the same principles apply here as they do in aviation: Rigidity in space which keeps the disc pushing straighter for longer (the more spin, the longer it stays stable in the air), gyroscopic procession which makes it flip, and critical angle of attack which makes the disc stall. I would love to see a detailed video from Simon on exactly how he grips a disc and keeps the nose down (he never looks like he is actively pointing the nose down). I feel like both of those play a huge role in the amount of spin he produces.
Shot of the day at my home course right there. Shout out to Ash Creek DGC and In The Bucket Disc golf!!!
When you spin the disc, it becomes like a gyroscope. Overriding the natural force/tendency that wants to make the disc "Dirty" and not fly through the air. So if you didn't spin the disc much it would want to fade earlier. The more spin the more the disc will want to turnover or wander/ linger.
So throwing for max distance you need the disc to spin as much as you can get, keeping the disc "upright" in the best position for flight/lift to combat gravity and drag. So the grip you use has a lot to do with it. As the disc comes out of your hand it will naturally want to spin. Throwers can do a slight little thing to get it to spin even more with their wrist. Really noticeable when throwing a flick/sidearm.
Aweosme video. It would be greeat to see this done with the tech disc
Usually nose angle effects drivers more then putters so he could have slight nose angle issues. Spin does effect the airflow around it as well but he could also have more off axis torque
Brilliant idea, Simon.
In addition to your flawless mechanics, I'm sure you are on to something with the spin factor. To test this, someone needs to develop a sensor that can be applied to a disc to measure revolutions per second.
As for the technology for the task, if we can imagine it, it likely already exists. I'm imagining a small adhesive sticker with an embedded microchip which is effectively a sensor that measures rotations per second...
It might be easier to build a prototype disc that has this built in and somehow keep it under 175 grams. You could even add a tiny screen that prints the result (rps) upon pressing a button after a throw.
Alright somebody, get to work ;)
This might have been said before, but I do not have time to read the comments now. Simon had a partial list of what influences disc distance. What was missing was trajectory (putter to putter had Simon on a hyzer vs a flat throw from the other thrower), height, cleanness of release OAT vs no wobble and sensitivity of the disc to nose angle and spin. Naturally drivers show flaws easier in nose angle and spin and putters in OAT. It may also be a case of differing discs because same weight, plastic and model discs brand new sometimes fly differently. Manufacturing consistence...
We need more videos like this and the motion capture videos. More data with different arms!
Hi Simon, keine Ahnung warum, aber Grüße aus Deutschland. Du bist der Grund warum ich mit Discgolf spielen begonnen habe.✌️🇩🇪
One of the best and most interesting disc golf vids I have seen. Would be cool if there was a way to measure the "RPM's" of a disc.
Enter tech disc lol this would be cool to see redone with tech disc now.
at those higher speeds the form factor of the disc starts to make a lot of difference. Drag is usually modeled with an equation that includes the velocity squared, so as Simon throws the disc faster, the drag is much stronger, limiting the effect of the faster "arm" speed. Anyways, that's my guess as to why the putter doesn't go much further when thrown at 70 mph.
Would be great to see something like this where the spin is measured also. Ur gonna need some special equipment for that, so it might be only a wish but never know where this channel is going... wish u all the best!
Super cool to learn about this!
I feel so good watching this video. Answered all my questions. Its such a good video, I wouldn't even had asked for it bcs its too much to ask for xD
On the distance driver throws, Raivis' throw had a more chopped, jerky movement with his form while Simon's was very smooth and fluid. Simon is taller with longer arms, probably longer hands/fingers so I'd imagine he can more easily generate higher spin by unfurling his body when throwing and basically generating more whip on release. As you both said, it comes down to form and spin.
I do think long levers helps. You look at Ricky and Eagle. Hard to explain but hope it makes sense.
I think he’s right about spin- which creates gyroscopic stability and keeps the disc up longer
It comes down to the spin rate out of Simon's hand to Rivas (sp?) hand. Even though they threw at the same speed, which is obviously a factor in disc carry, so is the spin rate. Simon's higher rpm's of the disk enables th disk to be stable and carry on longer to it's intended target. The disc pushing through the air generates a bubble of high pressure air beneath it and lower pressure above it. Much like the leading edge of an airplane wing to make the fuselage take flight. Simon's elite level snap release produces a higher spin rate, longer pressure differential to keep the disc in the air, stabilization towards his intended target and ultimately, greater distance. Even when thrown at the same speed as Rivas. Spin rates can be calculated out of tennis players and baseball pitchers so I would imagine they can do this with disc golf. It would be cool to see that data.
Half way through the video, these numbers make perfect sense to me.
The speed on a disc is basically how fast the disc needs to fly to reach its optimum distance. When he saw the drop off on the putter, that tells me that 60 mph was close to it's optimum speed. Theoretically if you continued to increase those speeds (assuming the discs could handle it) you would eventually see a wall for each of the other discs.
On the flip side, if you dropped below 40mph, the discs should get closer together and eventually a higher glide putter or mid could out shine a driver.
Think of a car traveling down the road. If it was shaped like a wall, it could still get up to some of the higher speeds of other cars, but would require a much bigger engine to do so. In this analogy, the engine would be your arm speed, and the shape of the car would be the shape of the disc.
More Videos like this! Awesome!
Simon it’s nose angle. Driver needs more nose down. Most am throws them slight nose up. That’s why your guys putter same speed was same distance. Putters have blunt nose and nose angle can’t really affect it as much.
You could get RPMs for spin using a high speed camera and a mark on the rim. That would be interesting to see the numbers.
Nice video Simon :)
Yeah beyond disc speed:
Angle of disc release and spin would be the most important from physics stand point.
You can definitely see this with putters more so than drivers. Or on those magical shots that go straight even though disc is nose up/faded out
Simon all your discs spins lol so you probably wouldn’t even notice
I definitely think simons friend threw more nose up than Simon did. You can see the difference when he releases it. I’ve found that’s one of the biggest distance killers. They both threw 60 mph, Doesn’t matter if they did a triple flip spin on the walk up, 60 is 60, so after that it’s about the release angle and spin generated…. Great video!
Simon just out there throwing his putters as far as I can throw my distance drivers lmao
The disc is a wing so it has initial velocity as well as lift, gravity, and drag forces. Additionally, the disc is spinning so it has angular momentum/gyroscopic stability and gyroscopic precession (turn/fade) due to the moment produced by the center of gravity and center of lift pressure being eccentric. The shape of the wing relative to it’s trajectory is dependent on the angle of attack and will impact lift and drag. The changes to lift forces in turn impacts precession. The greatest distance maximizes time aloft and speed. As the disc rolls/precesses the lift vector is no longer parallel to gravity and the disc will fall faster. The greater the spin rate of the disc the greater the angular momentum and the greater the resistance to changing the plane of rotation keeping the disc more parallel to its original trajectory and roll angle through its flight and thus gaining more distance.
Watch Simon's hand on his follow through. Fingers pointed down the whole way. That motion keeps the nose down and imparts the spin he is talking about. That's why his discs go farther, given the same arm speed. Stokely pointed this out in a video recently.
Spin and nose angle. I think spin helps the carry and nose angle help fight against the air or wind
The more concentrated the weight is towards the outer edge of the disc, the more it will act like a flywheel with high rotational inertia, resisting forces that try to push it off of its initial plane. Putters and midranges are, thus, more resistant to their pitch and roll changing due to turn and fade, the precessional forces due to the upward forces at the nose of the disc and towards the tail. The effect of these forces is felt on the left and right sides of the disc rather than the back and front due to the spin of the disc.
Wider-rimmed discs will have greater fade due to the greater drag area of the nose of the disc as well as their lower rotational inertia. However, having lower resistance to changing the plane of the disc means that drivers precess more due to the downward airflow at the tail of the disc, and their ability to maintain faster airspeed for longer contributes to this airflow and a longer turning line. Overall, discs with wider rims will tend to fly with less neutrality, turning more at the highest speeds and fading more at the lower ones. This is evident in the fact that putters and midranges finish, at low speeds, much straighter than drivers. This can also be seen in the video around 11:15 where he throws the P2 quite flat, and it shows a very straight path with little flip and fade, whereas the DD3 clearly flips up from hyzer at a lower release speed and fades hard.
The difference in distance really is due to the difference in cross-sectional area. Putters displace the most air, which means they can glide at the slowest speeds, but it also means they lose much more energy to drag at higher speeds. This is also why popped up versions of discs are more glidey: they displace slightly more air than flat-top discs, which allows them to generate more downward lifting force after that air flows off the tail of the disc, but also increases their drag at all speeds. That greater drag slows the disc down faster, and slow-moving drivers fade, so this is why poppy discs generally feel more overstable.
Impressive video, nice work!
its def your good looks that is the difference between your two throws. 😀
Dialed in arm speeds. Amazing.
Spin matters a lot. So does nose angle. Small degrees of hyzer may make a difference too.
this is incredible
Rpm is a major factor, However if we are to throw at the ground then trajectory is a matter that is just as important, because we do not want to throw at the ground unless rolling. Arm speed is just a proponent of starting the rpm which can find a good trajectory...so therefore its all of above.
I think spin generates lift. The more a disc spins the more likely it will stay airborne at lower speeds and therefore get more distance.
Do this again please! Pro versus am at different speeds throwing not just the same speed disc but the same disc. More repetitions too.
I also think it would be cool to throw a bunch of shots at the same speed with different disc stability and Hyzer angle. Will an understable Hyzer flip go further than a forced over overstable disc?
Technique for sure. If it wasn’t, we would all be on tour.
spectacular comparison of arm speed
I think Raivis had a lot more nose-up which made most of the difference in distance with drivers. Simon's release angle seemed to be a lot flatter in comparison. With putters, the nose-up difference doesn't have as much of an impact to the distance as seen in the video. There's probably other factors too, such as spin, but this one stuck out the most to me at least.
We need “stuff made here” to build us a disc throwing machine and test all these variables!
It has to due with the angle of flight compared to the ground, the initial inertia is fighting gravity and air forces, flatter means it stays going the initial speed longer as it means less air drag.
Simon may I make a suggestion. You should contact a local university and ask if anyone in the physics department is interested in doing their thesis on the mechanics of throwing a disc. You could change the way people throw or at least explain what exactly is going on. Enjoy your channel.🇨🇦
There are mulitple already. This PhD thesis is pretty comprehensive and the literature review will direct you to other papers. "Dynamics and performance of flying discs" by N Kamaruddin.
Its about spin, nose angle, angular momentum, air resistance, hyzer/anhyzer angle and weight
What I’ve learned from this is 60mph is about how hard I throw.
Man. Gg Simon
i definitely think it comes down to nose angle, spin, and commitment to the line that makes shots go farther or differently when thrown at the same speeds
I'm gonna bet nose angle and your timing was what lead to the 70 feet difference. Great video thou 🤙🤙
Plus is first driver shot went even further!
I'm not the most knowledgeable about the subject, but I do have a bit of information when you put spin on a disc there's something called the Magnus effect which is caused by the friction of the disc on the air around it pulling it to the side that is spinning. So for right hand backhand, the disc is spinning clockwise, which would make the disc turn more to the right the faster the this is spinning. And vice-versa. The Magnus effect pulling the disc to the right from right hand backhand throws keep the disc in the air longer because it's not giving the disc a chance to fade as fast
Because golf disc are very streamline, compare to a ball, i think the movement due to magnus affect would be quite small relative to the movement that happens with a small change in angle.
But you would expect to see this more with a putter than a driver if it was noticeable.
Snap. The top pros have incredible sound when they throw hard. Back in the day we compared to cracking a whip...
Not the least bit surprising. A putter has more drag than a driver, but absolute drag increases with the square of the speed, so a large surfacearea will very quickly converge on infinity (try throwing a sailboat sideways into the wind and you can chuck it at 400mph and still not get further than about 8 feet. assuming stable flight). The driver has a narrower edge, so less drag. If you were to throw a graphene disc 1 carbon-atom layer thick (except you can't hold it without slicing your hand off...), you could probably chuck it halfway across the atlantic, simply because its drag is negligible a fair bit into useful fractions of lightspeed, so it simply doesn't slow down until gravity makes it hit much denser things. Finding it will be tricky though, as it'd be several million times sharper than the sharpest knife ever made, so it'd just carve its way a couple of miles into the earth when it "lands".
IDEA! You could compare forehand arm speed to an exact backhand arm speed. We would assume the backhand would go further just because of the extra spin generated from backhand. You could try to find out how much more effort (mph) you need for the same distance.
Very interesting tests !! I notice when throwing many of the same disc. Spin is half the distance. And the angle. A slight double bank with side arm goes way farther then just a level flight.
As you say, i think spin, nose angle and of course the angle makes a big difference, like you say. But i do also think that the release can make quite a big difference. I mean you can release a disc at the same speed but one time pretty poorly and shaking (even if you might not be able to see it), which slows down the disc faster as if you release it perfectly flat without any shaking or wobbling :) This comes down to spin, but i think that your focus was more on the spin/rpm of the disc during the flight, right?
Greets from Germany!