The Battle of Thermopylae - East vs. West - Part 2 - Extra History
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- 📜 The Battle of Thermopylae, Part 2: Why does everyone know the Greek defeat at Thermopylae, but victories like Salamis and Plataea remain obscure? Because it helped define Greek, and thus “western” culture. And that’s thanks to one man: Herodotus.
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The oracle said that a Spartan king must fall in battle or Sparta would burn. So when Persia said “hand over your weapons” Leonidas said “come and take them.”
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Extra Credits I love ur vids
well sparta was a sort of democracy
Extra Credits Salamis is one of the most important things in our(greek) history books even from elementary school and now we now Salamis and Thermopylae is one of the most known things in Greece!! Also I would recommend a video series (small) based on the Oligarchs and the Dimocratics in Kerkira or the story of the 30 tyrants of Athens when the Spartans won!!
Extra Credits 2 entire videos waiting for a "300" movie reference... Not a single one. I'm disappointed.
Spartans have the best comebacks. "If I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."
"If."
I love that Herodotus is known both as the father of lies and the father of history.
4:57 I wonder if Herodotus actually considered Macedonia as Greek 😅
@@Crafty_Spirit he surely did. He wasn't a smug Athenian
I met him in ac : odyssey he was a great man
Hey he made up some of the best damn history I’ve ever heard you watch your mouth speaking truthfully about him.
I deny you
I think the story of Thermopylae also became legend because everyone loves a good story about a last stand, where a small band takes on a great army, fighting and dying bravely for their cause. It's why we Americans still remember the Alamo, despite it being a total defeat with no real military strategic significance. Those who fought and died there, like Leonidas, have become immortal.
And, lets not forget Custer or Wake Island. After all that, we still haven't learned to avoid such senseless slaughters.
It’s true. Though they lost, they have become legend.
To say it had no real military significance is an understatement they bought the United States Army almost a week. They held the Mexican Army back so the United States Army was able to rally the troops when we were unprepared if it wasn't for the men at the Alamo Santa Ana would have continued moving North
@@Osama_Zyn_Laden
The Alamo was during the Texas revolution, the Mexican-American war was over a decade later. In between those two wars, Mexico had several other breakaway states fight for independence and a French invasion.
It could be argued that the Alamo succeeded in tiring out the Mexican soldiers, making it easier for Texan soldiers to capture Santa Anna and force him to agree to Texas independence so that he could go back to Mexico city.
"our arrows will blot out the sun"
"Then whe shall fight in the shade"
Cool line. Still gonna die.
The Spartans were well known for those one liners in one occasion Philip II of Macedon was conquering Greek city-states and Sparta was relatively weak and without walls seeing that Philip sent a message to the Spartans saying “If I invade Lakonia you will be destroyed, never to rise again.” The Spartans replied with one word, “If.”
@@apostolispouliakis7401 Spartans learned to be tactful, strategic, efficient, and ruthless with _all_ weapons in their arsenal.
I feel that was the case with all the badass lines that the Spartans had at Thermopylae. They were awesome, and didn't make much of a difference to the Persians.
"Come and take them!"
"Sure thing bro, if you insist"
Real line
@@BenthiccBiomancer well. The ration was like 20 persians=1 spartan
"Oh stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that
we lie here, obedient to our laws"
"«ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.»"
What is interesting is that this is not written in Spartan Doric. Artistic Ancient Greek text such as this used its own mix of dialects to portray different styles. The word for "stranger" uses the Ionian form, which I believe is also the Epic (Homeric) form, used to portray, for lack of a better word, seriousness.
written by Simon of Kea (modern day isl. Tzia). He was a lyric poet who also wrote a line for the battle of marathon earlier. He literally signed the greco-persian wars with his words.
sadly very few people will get this
the irony
Been watching this channel for years, this episode stands out.
An excellent retelling of the noble deaths of the Greeks, without glossing over the caveats, all tied up in an excellent example of how global identities grow.
The spartan king had only one response, "Come and Take Them"
Thug Life...
The most balanced story telling and summing I've met.
My full respect is yours.
The Persian elites were never called 'Immortals' that's a translation error on the part of Herodotus. The actual name would be closer to Companions, and since Macedon spent some time as a subject of Persia this would indicate that Alexander's famed Companion Cavalry may have some inspiration from the east.
It's a problem because later authors made it a big deal. The name Immortals has been used as an example of how arrogant and tyrannical the Persians were. The scene from 300 when they were introduced is a great example, as every word from the narrator expresses how they are a force Terror and not an elite unit.
I hope one day you guys could do a history one on the Battle of the Alamo during the Texan Revolution
When they talked about Leonidas' last stand, I couldn't imagine anything but the "tonight we dine in hell" speech from the movie version of _300._ And I've never even seen the movie.
I love the fact that this series doesn't demonize Persia, and challenges the racist and utterly false myth of some kind of existential conflict between Greeks and Persians, and by extension, between Westerners and Asians. It's such a refreshing change of pace.
We remember Thermopylae because it is awesome. A tiny army holding a pass against an endless ocean of enemies in an epic last stand.
Why does Leonidas look like Bob Marley?
Shout out to the thespians and thebians that stayed behind along with the Spartan slave warriors
Thespians?
So your telling me 300 gets bonus points for being on film?
Such a focus on Thermopylae was also the result of a propaganda campaign by Sparta, who, of course, didn't want their rival, Athens, to get much credit for the war.
Hey EC, you guys should do a video on the breakup of Yugoslavia. I think it's a really interesting topic that you guys could totally do a series about.
Neither.
I'm thinking one episode on the formation, alliance with Serbia, and post WWII era and early into the cold war. Second one could focus on Tito trying to hold the country together and ends with his death, while the last two could focus on the wars and breakup.
I get how the Persian tactics aren't going to work, but I still don't get how a wicker shield would offer any defense.
It's light and good at glancing blows, just not directly absorbing them.
Every Greek history summarized:rising threat>unity>success>betrayal>loss
Ayy I missed you man ❤️☺️
more threatning way: COME AND GET THEM
Less threatning way: come and take them!
You missed the Part where Leonidas informs some dude where he is while kicking him down a well.
Cyrus the Great needs an episode. Badly.
There is no greater death than one earned through the protection of your family, home or fellow man.
Nice conclusion statement, agree with that.👍🏻
Please do the reconquesta and the unification of Spain please
@@Cargoshots 😄
The truth defies simplicity
1:42
ATTACK
RETREAT
ATTACK
RETREAT
can you do an texas revolution from beginning to epilogue
It’s not about the victory it’s about the friends we made along the way
Mount Mikial (if I spelt it right) occurred at the end of the war as well. The victory there won the Ionans their freedom. So, another even more obscure victory no one talks about.
Rome also idolized and copied many Spartan ideals of religious piety, a dual monarchy, and militaristic fervor.
In WWII the British defended Thermopylae against the invading Germans and were defeated in the same way as the Spartans. Better yet, the British defenders were command forces.
There likely to be more soldiers because those aforementioned attendants would fight along with whoever they served.
I always held the battle of thermoply in the same regard as the battle at the alamo. Both were ultimately fruitless but hardened the resolve of the those who were fighting.
They touched on it here, but The Immortals in the Persian army were very much not immortal. In fact, the reason they were referred to as The Immortals was for precisely the opposite reason - so many of them died, and yet their numbers never seemed to decrease due to just how many of them there were.
Honestly the Greeks vs Persians reminds me a bit of the civil war. Both sides saw themselves as fighting for freedom, with the north and the Persians fighting for freedom on the modern sense of personal liberty, including from slavery, while the south and Greeks fought for self determination, specifically in the south's case state's rights, even if it meant lack of personal liberties as in the case of slabery
Kind of like the Allamo. "We lost, but we were epic."
I think Thermopylae is the best example for good PR. It was a bitter loss for the greek coalition, but the Spartans of that story are even today considered heroes. I personally think that the battle at Xiaoyao Ford is way more interesting. A battle where 7000 soldiers fought against 100.000 soldiers and kicked their butts.
The hot gates is important to Greece for the same reason the Alamo mission is important to Texans
Qt 5he start of this video, his response is a lot. like Texas response to Mexico wanting their cannon back and I could think is the saying "history doesn't repeat itself but it sheer does rime"
The defeat at Thermopylae is so remembered because that was when the Hellenic City-Sates truly became one entity.
They never became one entity, hell, we are fragmented even now, thousands of years later.
An excellent novel series about this era (by Christian Cameron) starts with "Killer of Men". Pretty much the best historical fiction novels I've ever read, and maybe the best books I've ever read for story telling mastery.
when spartan last stand is much better than custer last stand
I love the way you tell these stories!!
Why not have those Fosians build another wall just behind that pass, and then at an opportune time withdraw to just behind that wall. Neutralizing that threat?
Original phrase ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ=come and get them
Honestly I see a lot of parallels to what is happening with America and the Middle East now... we as America paint a picture of ourselves as the truly equal and free nation yet we were one of the last to abolish slavery, attack countries for resources or just because (Iraq and Vietnam), and yet we still attempt to make nations, that don’t follow our beliefs, out to be the bad guys. Even in WW2, we committed numerous atrocities but history and “the truth” is written by the victors.
I think the reason people fetishize thermopylae is because of the bravery shown in the face of certain death.
The Persian envoy who visited Leonidas should consider himself lucky he only got a verbal rejection. Ten years earlier, the Persian envoy sent by Darius to request Sparta's submission was thrown down a well.
herodotus wrote histories as an investigation rather than myth making
now let's talk about herodetus' use of history to engage in myth making
Wtf!! That final Greek charge was epic, I wish that was in the movie
I'd love to see you guys do the Canadian Theatre of the Seven days war/French Indian war, or at least the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. I don't think that battle/war gets enough credit for how it affected history of France, England, Canada and the US.
Didn't Herodotus say, that the Thebanians (or at least, some of them) betrayed Leonidas and threw away their weapons to surrender to xerxes?
I mean. It's unlikely that this really happened, however Herodotus is the only source (from the early antiquity) we have about the persian wars and I thought it could've been worth mentioning.
Glory and Death, Spartans will never surrender.
Absolutely great video, thank you!
The ironic thing was few years later there was a 30 years "civil" war that probably was more similar to a cold war with action and actual battle which Spartans won
The more hilarious misremembering of history: we credit Athens for democracy when Rome booted the Tarquins before Athens cast out Hippias, and the Roman Republic didn't get crushed by Alexander III or for that matter, Philip V and Perseus.
Great video Extra History, like always, but i disagree on 200K Persians, that figurr in really inflated, it was based on how much people would the land support, which means its a max, doesnt mean Persia had the ressources and manpower to raise and supply and army that far from home, and you cant conscript farmers for a mission thousands of miles away from home. most likely the Persian army was professional, in the 60K-80K range, 100K including suppliers and workers/Engineers.
Good job guys but you can do it more episodes. But again very good job!
Imagine they added the Persians in Total War Arena and you could play Xerxes vs Leonidas xD
Really nice ending here. I loved it!!!
I would know about the American love affair with Spartans, considering they were the mascot of one of my high schools.
No matter where you lived, this battle affected you.
What about the far East? Beyond Persia? True, their culture interact with "the western culture", but I doubt this battle affected their culture...
Alexander conquered parts of India and brought with him Greek ideas, and India influenced all Asia so maybe not directly but it certainly affected the East too
strubbery g
Well, all EuroCentrist and western superiarists talk about Alexander and Hellenism, but no one ever talks about Mithraism and things that Alexander brought back from his jonrney and their undeniable influencebover the West!
Well, also the business with the Greeks Stopped Persian Eastern expansion. The amount of troops Xerxes took actually depleted his ability to deal with his border states and he came home to a bunch of rebellions And border wars which took until the time of Alexander to put down.
Far east Asia had some influence from them in the Middle ages and later on influenced them.
Peregrine Miles
No...The Persian (or Achaemenid more accurately) Empire lived 150 years after the death of Xerexes,and some of the greatest kings came after him (e.g Artaxerexes, Darius 2, Xerexes 2, etc)
You forgot Gorgo!!!!
I wish the next series is about Trojan War or of Alexander the Great.
This is allmost as entertaining as the very well made documentary with Gerard Butler
That is the cutest Alexander I've ever seen.
The Greeks are darker than the Persians
Historically accurate
Hush, T A T you roach
Thank you for your educating and interesting video.
I have one question: as you said the main narrative of this event is of Herodotus and as you said he was biased in his narration so he could form a united Greek culture; so how do we validate the events, why didn't Persians use catapult or ballista to crush the lines of heavy infantry; didn't they have such weaponry?
From what I read the Spartans Force the thespians to stay in fight due to the fact they were under suspicion of collaborating with the Persians
No it's not comical and if you guys had bothered reading about that war between Athens and Sparta you would know that Sparta although inflicting great harm on Athens chose to show them mercy.
Why? Because Athens had saved "Greece" in it's darkest hour against the Persians and Sparta never forgot that.
Spears were shaken
Shields were splintered
A sword day
A red day
Ere the sun rose
Keep up the work next can u do the apartied
For the main Extra History series, there's a suggestion box and a vote on Patreon. Good idea though - I (or someone) should suggest it.
Thanks I’m a little new here
“ARISE! ARISE, CHILDREN OF MYCENAE! SPEAR SHALL BE SHAKEN! HOPLAND SHALL BE SPLINTERED! A SWORD DAY, A RED DAY, ERE THE SUN RISES! CHARGE, CHARGE NOW! CHARGE TO THE GATES OF HADES! FORTH, GREEKS!”
*THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM!*
*THIS IS WHERE WE FIGHT!*
*THIS IS WHERE THEY DIE!*
SPARTANS! WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?!
Thanks to one man... "Frank Miller" oh... Heredotus is fine too
I have one thing to say: FOR SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!
To state the obvious.............. THIS IS SPARTA! 😮
SPARTANS WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION
The battle of salamis is very popular in greece
A final stand, stop the Persians spear in hand!
What? You mean Zack Snyder’s version was WRONG?!? I can’t believe it!
They would’ve won if the rear guard had and officer ‘cause a phalanx is weak if hit in the rear
At 1:08, I highly doubt that those Persian archers didn't kill any Greek soldiers in that volley of arrows. Persian soldiers were trained hard to be hardened killers in the battlefield, and if they had a target set in their sights, they would for sure not miss. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this) but that telling of the story seems like it only is coming from Greek sources rather then actual Persian sources.
You are wrong. Archers did not pick individual targets in such battles. They lot loose volleys of arrows that perforated an area. Greek hoplites were so heavily armoured that there would be little chance of them getting killed that way, unless they were surrounded by archers (as happened in the final day of the battle).
Ehh, I don't know. Battles then were a lot less violent than people think. Like, the word "decimated" was Latin for "losing 10%", and it was synonymous with "total destruction". Losing 10% of an army was extreme. It was a an actual travesty. If people started dropping during the Persian volleys, the Greeks might not have stayed in position.
I could easily see archers firing en masse at a distance not doing any damage. There were situations later in history where lines of muskets would fire in each other's direction for hours, and nobody would die.
It's just wrong to say Thermopylae created a Greek identity. There was a common identity before and after it. There was infighting before and after it. There were Greeks siding with the Persians before and after it. There was a common state before the Bronze Age collapse, there were countless references to a Greek nation at least since the middle of the 8th century BC, there were the Olympics, in which only Greeks could compete, and during which all fighting between the Greeks stopped (Can we admire how it was agreed and implemented to stop hostile action during wars because of a predetermined athletic and religious event?). Thermopylae and Herodoyus' writing were important, but not the defining moment being described, even historiography was revolutionised by a probably much better writer (Thukydides) quite soon. Ideas of a new political union of the Greeks came after the Peloponnesian War, and were mostly fulfilled by Alexander. Again, as good as this series is, the presentation of the battle and its aftermath as the point of the ethnogenesis of the Hellenic nation is probably very misleading to most of the audience who don't have that much knowledge about the period.
The CIty states shared a simliar culture, but were ultimately diffrent
from each other in many aspects, not to mention in Politics. It´s like
with Being Human, we are all Human, but we aren´t unified yet.
I don't get how this tackles my point in any way. Yes there were differences. What I am saying is that the Thermopylae didn't kickstart the Hellenic ethnogenesis as is claimed by this video, in fact it predated the battle by quite a lot.
5:45 is this the battle of 300
Fav episode ever, 300 movie was a lie
Wait 300 was about terrorism? I haven't seen the movie in a while and I never read the graphic novel, but still I don't remember that part.
Narrator: "Why do we remember Thermopaly? They failed to stop Xerxes"
me: "DUDE, 7,000 Vs. 200,000"
When your on night duty, but the trees start speaking Farsi.
⊙~⊙
😁😁😁😁
LOLL
Long time later in 1968: American soldier in Vietnam tells joke the trees start to laugh US soldier:......
@@icantcomeupwithagoodusername24 When you’re American and the trees start speaking Vietnamese.
👁️👄👁️
The reason why the Persian Elite force were dubbed as "Immortals". It was because the men wore masks over their faces. Never making a sound. Also, if any had fallen. They were replaced by another man. Seemingly endless in number. Never know if it was the same man that was killed or someone new to replace them.
This is not some comic book story telling. There are written records that tell this. The Immortals were a scary force. Just because they were haunting warriors to fight.
Yep. Essentially employing an early from of psychological warfare.
Shapur Hakhamaniash Well, it is all about how you conduct your battles. Persians generally fought on wide open ground. So they had to move quickly across a battle field and normally the enemies they faced before weren't so well armed or armored. Plus stretching over pretty much two landmasses. You had a lot of manpower to pull from.
Then, have the Greeks and Spartans. Which were all small warring states. Man power was at a premium. So they used advance smithing and metal techniques to forge far better weapons and armor. All to increase survival on the field of battle.
Yet of course they did not have numbers. So they would have lost in no time.
And after Thermopylae they changed their name from "Immortals" to "A pile of rotten meat". It was because they turned into a pile of rotten meat. Never making a sound.
...the rest just fled away.
Qardo From what I had been taught, it was an etymological thing. I was told that the Persian name for them meant, "The Brotherhood," or something like that, but either the Persian world for Immortal and brotherhood were very similar or the Persian word for Brotherhood was similar to the Greek one for Immortal.
Who betrayed the greeks !?!?!
It was Walpole......
Ephialtes is the Greek translation of Walpole?
jakarnilson well in greek ephialtes means nightmare
So... same thing?
I know it means nightmare. Which is why I jokingly asked on the old brick joke.
IT! WAS! WALPOLE!
Not *THIS IS SPARTA* ?
Awesome action film and comic series, not very accurate, a bit like Marvel's Norse mythology actually, awesome but accuracy is not important.
I am disappointed too
Yes indeed why let a good History lesson get in the way of one liners :)!
enlighted Jedi When it comes to Sparta you can get both, laconic speech was named after their country Laconia.
I though my same point would have got across. This is why we need communication I guess :)!
Greeks are OP plz nerf
commandervulkan Got nerf in civ4, Macedonia is now the OP one.
commandervulkan Well modern Greece has been severely nerfed.
Yea Greece is broken early game, it gets balanced out by the "Turkish Occupation" and "Crippling Modern Debt" modifiers late game.
I hear next patch they're getting Romanized and turned into a province.
Nop. Lol! ;)
You guys should cover Alexander The Great!
Yeah, it would fit in with the new Macedonian name agreement. Maybe it will reduce tensions by making those slavs realise they aren't Macedonians.
It would garner quite a lot of attention from disillusioned Greeks who think he destroyed the Persian administration and replaced it with Greek systems.
Why bother and destroy something that works over a vast empire ?
We don't think that aantony.
Alexander knew he couldn't keep a vast empire together with an iron fist. He dreamed of an empire to modern day China, so he basically said "Oh your king just died in battle? Well no problem im your king now, go on." I think the thing you may be mistaking it for is either the Hellenistic kingdoms or the actions Alexander did to keep the empire together.
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You guys are the best channel on TH-cam.
And it is not even porn :)!
Hope it is still as good as this now seeing as dan left a few weeks agi
Extra Mythology
and Extra Mythology
How can you forget extra mythology
The laconic Greek phrase for "come and take it" can equally be interpreted as "come get some".
Spartans were clever with wordplay like that.
Dukes Nukemoss
And yet they got some. Lol.
@@saeedvazirian More than they asked too.
MOLON LABE
@@CIoudStriker This is your regular reminder that 100 years after Thermopylae, Sparta got their asses handed the them by freakin' THEBES.