WHY IT'S SO HARD TO BUY A NEW FERRARI...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2023
- In this video we discuss the qualifications you need to have in order for you to be approved for buying a brand new ferrari. There are lots of rumors going around on the rules for buying a new Ferrari so I wanted to set the record straight!
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You can double check this, but I believe every single Warranty lawsuit, where dealerships or car manufacturers attempted to void warranties, have lost in court. Courts have established that manufacturers can't arbitrarily terminate the warranties if consumers change some aspect of the automobile. It has to be something specific that cause a specific item to fail. For instance, if you change your wheels, and sometime after, your door locks quit working, they can't refuse to fix the door locks so long as the car is within the warranty timeline. Now, if you changed the door-locks mechanism to some other type of brand, they can refuse to replace/repair it under warranty free of charge. But CANNOT void the car warranty. I believe that's case law, and also embedded within the Federal Trade Commission Auto Warranties directives.
good to know thx
When the Roma first came out, i fell in love with it. I ordered it in December 2020 w/ a $15k deposit. It was delivered in May 2023. You can buy a new Ferrari, but be prepared to wait!
Your car looks great - enjoy it and drive it in good health…..you deserve it!
Thanks I appreciate that and same to you! Congrats 🎉
Wait three years for a car? Not even if it was a gift
Because it keeps demand high for their cars, while reducing availability, which increases demand even further. More demand = more valuable brand. Ferrari is really great at protecting its brand and keep the value high.
Nope you would be wrong, If you were right Rolls Royce Lamborghini and Mclaren ( to name a few) would be trash because have no such restrictions yet their vehicles retain and often exceed their value and exclusivity over time.
Whats imrpessive about Ferrari is even during a Recession their Stock never drops and their cars almost never lost value. Ferrari as a brand is very valuable.
That’s not true. Back in the 2000 time frame you could sell your previous car for more than the new model. Now Ferrari makes so many models they are suffering huge depreciation.
Try buying a new one then not sell it for a 100k loss.
Sure they a couple models that appreciate for a very short time. Buy a new Roma then sell it for a $50-75k loss
I would never buy a Ferrari. The dealers are the worst. They make McClaren dealers look like a saint
Just rent one lol
I agree, logically the stocks go up and down, but in general, as a brand, they are stable and amazing.
@@jimsteinway695- I’ve owned 3 new Ferraris over the last 3 year and sold 2 of them for a very large profit while still following Ferrari’s rules. They make extremely low production numbers of every model and there are always more people who want to buy them than the numbers of cars they actually produce. Summary, you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about so stop pretending that you do.
All made possible by people with more money than brains.
Will, you're wrong. I used to work at Ferrari's US headquarters in NJ. I can ensure you that Ferrai enforces the strict guidelines on who could purchase newly released vehicles.
Allocation to dealerships are small in order to ensure dealerships focus only on selling to top clientele. Ferrari is known for cancelling allocation to individuals that dealership sold to after Ferrari deemed them to be undesirable.
Ferrari only allows dealerships to sell a new vehicle allocation to individuals that are not highly desirable only when the model is approaching its end of production.
The reason Ferrari heavily restrict buyers of their vehicles is to protect its brand image. They don't want to be associated with the typical Lamborghini buyer. They view these individuals as lower class, posers and new money individuals. By rejecting them, Ferrari has become a more prestige brand that mainly caters to higher class individuals. They are willing to pay a premium for access to the brand.
How can they determine if a buyer is highly desirable ???? They don’t give a buyer an application when they come in to purchase a car. They only asked me for a deposit and my contact info.
@@WillMotivation Ferrari has a database of the contact information, purchasing, reselling and servicing history of all buyers. Based on that database, Ferrari automatically generates a list of the buyers they expect to purchase the brand new model for each dealership. Based on that list is how each dealership is allocated their number of order slots. If a dealership allocates a slot to someone Ferrari doesn't recognize as having a strong history with the brand, they will cancel the allocation.
The reason you had no issues ordering a new F8 is due to the fact its been on the market for about 4 years and is being replaced. Owning other Ferrari vehicles also helped you.
@@zarbon700 I know someone who's getting a Purosangue as their first Ferrari. So, I don't know what you're talking about!
@@zarbon700varies a lot on dealer
No rules ever came from Maranello. Some rules were cooked up by FNA which I believe led to someone pretty high up losing his job not that many years ago, and the rest of the B.S was cooked up by US dealers.
I'm in Europe, I'm a Tier 1 client, I think I have a pretty good grasp of this from a general standpoint? Exactly what did you do? I know for a fact that the only rules we are currently having to deal with, is the rules about selling some VS cars.
When I signed off on my 812 Comp I signed off on not selling it for 18 months after delivery. When I signed off on my Puro, it was the same. And when I signed off on my SF90XX it was the same, but with the caveat that I have to keep my regular SF90 until the date of the XX delivery. When I signed off on my Pista and Pista Spider, there were no such clause, nor was it there for my 458, 488 or F8.
Here's the short of it. FNA took part in the games, which were never Ok'd by Maranello. Sadly, LdM chose to turn a blind eye to the whole thing. But after he left, it all changed, and it has changed a lot. Before you could be a Tier 1 by sheer ownership of cars and purchase, but that's quite hard today. However, being a registered GT driver or other form of Corse Cliente helps more than anything, just like it does taking part in events such as Classiche here in September etc. If you think just buying yourself the big five will get you number six, nope, not any more. This may have been the case in the previous decade and back, especially in the US, but Ferrari now caters more than ever to those who participate, race and use their cars.
You are right in saying that many Ferrari dealers don't get a ton of allocations, but that is not the same as FNA or Ferrari SpA is controlling who gets those allocations when they pertain to regular models. Even with some numbered VS cars the dealer have a final say. When the 812 Comp was launched, my and every other dealer was sent a list of approved names they could choose from - I saw that list from more than one dealer. Let's just say that the list for my dealer needed a few A4 pages.
So to say that FNA or Ferrari SpA has or even WANTS any say in who gets a basic F8 or 296 makes absolutely zero sense. Even my contact at Penske will attest to this. They send out a bunch of allocations and the dealer can sell those. With some cars, they will want the dealers to get VIP and Tier 1 clients in on the first allocations, but in general, if there's an allocation, they will sell it to anyone who wants it. If you want to play those ridiculous games, go to FoB or something, but in Europe and many dealers outside of CA etc. the idiotic games are a thing of the past. In short, as long as we are not talking low volume like the Puro or VS cars, first come first serve.
When you buy a new Ferrari from the dealer, they usually ask you to sign a first right of refusal…..meaning if you want to sell the car, you have to offer it to them first. They do this to prevent flipping. Of course if you can get more money elsewhere, they can’t stop you from selling it to a third party provided you give them an opportunity to match the pricing first.
Great video and information to dispel false rumours. I love your F8, it's beautiful. Had to watch twice because I was so distracted by the car. Congrats and good luck with your new Ferrari!
Great Info Will! I was always curious about this process. Thanks for explaining and being transparent about it!
Glad it was helpful!
There is one thing to add. It is not entirely true that Ferrari does not make you sign papers that pertains to when you can sell a car. However, that is specific for some cars, not all cars. Right now we are asked to sign off on not selling the 812 Comp, Purosangue and SF90XX for 18 months from the date of delivery. On top of that, we are not allowed to sell our regular SF90's before taking delivery of our SF90XX.
Ferrari is doing a lot right now, to avoid the damage and make the mistakes McLaren has made, after Ferrari ramped up production.
Nothing beats the steering wheel design of a Ferrari
Man this was a great video I always wondered if all those stories I heard about the hoops you have to jump through in order to purchase a Ferrari was true and you literally answered all of my questions in this video! Also this Friday we're outside!!! 😎
I know a good lunch spot 😅
@@WillMotivation Bet looking forward to it.
Same! This was a dope video
Thanks for the info.
Very informative Will! This helps me with my decision to buy in the next year. Plus, I’ll keep your dealership in mind since they were transparent with you. Thanks 🙏🏽👊🏽💯
euro, this doesnt help me with my decision as i cant afford one lol.
Hey thanks for the information.
Wow, I’ve learned so much. Thanks for the info. I’ll need it when I buy my future Ferrari. 🙏🏿
Very nice and informative video.
Nice to see a video that debunks some of the B.S out there. That said, some dealers in the US still play games, but Ferrari SpA has actually told their dealers to not play the games.
Thanks for making this video. It helps to know how the process works in different areas.
Glad it was helpful!
@@WillMotivation Yes of course it was helpful after what the internet is spreading all thanks to Mr. Leno not owning a Ferrari! Very nice and informative!
Congratulations Will on this beautiful new whip. If your not coming here I'll come out there.
I know this off the subject but I’m more interested on the “REP” super car.. I watched one of your vid and wanted to get more info on that.. can you please provide that info please
REP?
Really liking your content. This is the side of super car ownership I am so curious about!!
More to come!
Great vid man!
Very informative!! Thanks for the videos .. Glad to have joined the Ferrari club. Love me FS90 Spider 🤗
Thank you!
I continue to enjoy your content, keep up the good work.
I appreciate that!
look like an amazing car. How does it compare to the other cards you own?
Very informative video for sure and debunks a lot fo the myths for buying a Ferrari, well done!
Glad you liked it!
Excellent share.
nice honest vid will,beautiful car nice spec, regards from the u.k.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Beautiful car,Just wondering about customer service from your your dealership? Please keep us informed. Thanks!!!!
Hey bro... quick question, how about detailing? Do you do it, or what? Please advise.
Normally I get help with that
I'm definitely happy you're in the drop Top... and it's definitely alot of rumors out there... I remember when i checked with ferrari about this something... I called ferrari Manhattan Nyc.. that rep said how are you going to pay for it and the wait time😂🤷🏾👍🏾👊🏾💪🏿
Thanks for sharing real life experiences 😊
My pleasure 😊 What videos should we do next?
@@WillMotivation Thanks for reply! I'm thinking proper business credit to obtain entry level sports cars and how to build from there.... shout-out from Ypsilanti Michigan 😄
I’m sure I speak for a lot of us guys when I say,we appreciate all your input you share with us.👍🏿😎
I appreciate that
Dealer can only decide about 30%, but the FNA decide the rest packing order. The the Top client and the VIP, they can get the car before the regular Joe, and they got offer of hard to get models and the limited production models.
Manufacturers can deny warranty claims if they can legally prove what you did caused the problem. Otherwise they can blame your blown motor on window tint. Can’t just legally void a warranty if there wasn’t a contract about what you explicitly can and can’t do.
Bro you explained this perfectly!
Glad it was helpful!
Will can u do a video on how much car insurance cost for ur cars. People can maybe afford the car but not the insurance or Car maintenance🎉😊
Exactly what most people don't understand.
@@michaelvaughn9020 factz bro
For sure
Than that means they can’t afford the car, if you can’t maintain the car you shouldn’t buy it because insurance and upkeep are mandatory on any car
Can we get a similar video on the lambo experience and what you got to sign pls. Thanks Will.
Interesting information
Thanks for visiting
Congrats on the car and I enjoy your channel! As a Ferrari collector, I’ll say some of what you’ve said here is true. However, Ferrari does have A LOT of control and say...especially for special cars. For example, those of us chosen for the 812 Competizione 812, SF90 XX and earliest allocations for the Purosangue…were picked directly by Ferrari and required to sign contracts. But, there’s no other car brand in the world like Ferrari.
Ah yea I forgot about those really special editions. Thanks for the correction
Glad for you dude
Hey thanks
I love your content Will
Likewise. Let’s collaborate soon bro. I am around until the 28th. Appreciate u
I just ordered mine. Poster should be coming soon.
Im Porsche GT3 touring owner Ferrari are prestigious cars so the protocol makes sense when it comes to buying one great video
I don't know how true that is I know somebody that owns a 2023 Spyder he also owns a urus at the same time🤷🏾♂️ he got the blue all white guts blue piping in the seats trem... I dnt know what he went through but I seen both wit mine on eyes
Yes I said that this was a rumor or basically false that people cannot own both a Lambo and Ferrari. I own both
Im a Lambo guy first but this F8 is beautiful! Can’t wait to be in position to make a hard decision on which one ✊🏿💯
That's the type of energy that will get you there. Been watching Will for 8 years ish.. 8 Years ago I was a broke college student. Now I got three super cars . 🔥🔥 keep that mentality
@@Zay13378 congratulations bro! I got TH-cam page I started, what do you do how you got your super cars? I got a C7 vette
@@Flexwithken love the C7! Big corvette guy I had a C7 Stingray but I sold it a year ago. I am also a real estate investor, I do a lot of fix and flips/ rental properties. Was a lawyer for over a decade but do real estate investing full time now
@@Zay13378 I’m buying my first home next year then build my portfolio ✊🏿
Congrats brother
There is still an issue with a small volume dealer... theyll get less allocations.. It's not like the los angeles dealer Gets 200 and a saint louis low volume dealer also gets 200.... The allocations might actually tilt in favor of the high volume dealer I would think.... So the situation may actually be the possibilty that the low volume dealer doesn't have their nose stuck so high in the air...
great video
Bro I thought I remembered you saying that you lived in Columbus. I was recently there for an e-commerce conference and stayed at the Hilton downtown. My wife and I had a ball. We hit North Market up quite a few times. I didn't realize Columbus was so diverse.
Definitely is! I was born and raised here.
Most of those stories are about the top tier hyper car models like laferrari, enzo, etc…, while ridiculous sometimes the regular production models aren’t really like that, not there is anything regular about a 400 thousand dollar car.
You’re right
Love the red on black. 🙂
good job very interesting
Thanks!
What is there to modify? It’s perfect
great content will
Thanks 🙏🏾
Another part is that Ferrari only builds Sold units that are end user spec'd.....that is why u can't walk-in and buy a new dealer spec stock unit ....also you be hard pressed to find 2 cars are build with same options ....
I think I seen you leaving the barn on Friday..car is too nice brother!
Probably so
Will is good with strategy.
The best thing about any modern Ferrari is the Motegi Japan 5 spoke wheels (if they come with them).
I’m buying a Ferrari today I had cash 💰 and the dealership told me we have it ready to go …. I didn’t have any problems I had a 2020 mustang eco boost that was used but I didn’t have any problems with buying a Ferrari
Obviously....I want first dibs on buying if you decide to sell....love the channel Will!!
Thanks bro
Why did that cost $420k when similar examples on BAT MSRP is closer to 350-365k?
Spider all carbon options
It’s annoying how they do not give customers who can afford it the chance to prove it. In my country, it will cost about US$1.2 million including taxes for a F8 Tributo. I called asking to test drive a F8. Answered questions like no,I’ve never own a Ferrari , yes I can afford to pay for it. Yes , I can wait 2 years for a new one. They are not keen to even let me test drive without doing a credit check or checking my background. I’m not those who will pimp my cars in awful colours like some Lamborghini owners. I appreciate the technology and beauty of a Ferrari.
very interesting
Beautiful spec on your F8
Thanks!
Thanks for breaking this down Will!
It's interesting. I have to say Ferrari does look beautiful.
My local Ferrari dealer is also a Maserati dealer. I used to ask questions on the Ferrari side every time I got my Maserati serviced. I’m cleared. Just waiting to get rich lol
It’s the same with trying to buy a s/s Rolex from an official dealer
Great video
Thanks!
Is having the car repainted a void of the warranty?
No I don’t think so
Weird i haven’t had an issue buying one and i’m an average Joe. It’s not so hard if it is a common model just have the money and the awesome credit and that’s it that’s all. On the other hand limited series ones yup politics and strict rules or maybe i am blessed enough to buy them at sticker price. Still not at the level to buy limited series aside of second hand market with stupid mark ups.
It's really politics and much as just rules that needs to be enforced. When you have the market Ferrari does and you know that you'll only make say 499 or 799 examples of that car, there needs to be rules and regulations, otherwise it becomes a huge brawl.
"Why it's so hard to buy a Ferrari today.."
Me: " money"
Thank you for that info. "hit the subscribe button"
Thank you for that info. And while you're at it, go ahead and hit the subscribe button with a roundhouse kick!
Thanks for the motivation!!!
Since I started watching you 6 months ago I have added £2.5Million to my bank account.
I am on track to make an extra £1Million by 2024 and have officially bought my dream P1.
Really?
What if you went directly to the factory?
Are you sure that if you sell it NOW you will have buyers at 100.000$ more than your original price? Thanks
Never 100% sure.
For me it's shoes I hardly ever get my first choice ,,they not all carry or have size 14
Tim, SHMEE 150, owns a lambo and has a Ferrari and has ordered almost 3 more. Can you elaborate how he owns both?
You can for sure own both. There is not a real rule that says you can’t.
@@WillMotivation actually. I was wondering why would a company make such non sense rules.
Trial n tribulation getting n owning this amazing beautiful SUPERCAR legendary Ferrari is crazy info stuff . Each dealer is jot da same . YO WILLMOTO GREAT INFO HERE N CONGRATS ON YOUR CAR HERE .
Thanks!!!
I understand they don't want people to flip them. Only the dealers are allowed to sell the used ones above the original sticker. LOL You can't own a Lamborghini at the same time? That's crazy! First time I am hearing that one. Congratulations....The F8 is gorgeous!
even if the price goes up you can’t flip it until later when the price had dropped
We’ll see
I heard you had to be a previous Ferrari owner in order to own a brand new one.. meaning a used Ferrari first, is this true
theres ways around stuff like that
Nah that’s not true I’m general. It maybe some dealers might make you buy a used one from THEM to give you an allocation on a new one.
For the special Editions ya. I think to own a 458 Speciale you had to own like a California/ T non T another ferrari pre owned for more than 2 years
Not sure how Travis Scott got his laferrarfi but thats 4 previous ferraris and you'd still be on a waiting list.
Blame car flippers like Salomadrin for that..
@@WillMotivation Precisely.
@@SirBrucie For special variants of mainstream cars, only the base car needs to be purchased beforehand.
Living the dream. Super dope ride ❤❤❤❤❤
I heard about the rule and modifying Ferrari cease and desist. But had no idea with other rules ,wow!
They don't have such rules. Like was pointed out here, they are rumours, cooked up by morons like DDE who try to sound interesting. In the last two decades there has been exactly one C&D and that was the Deadmau5 case. It was not for modifying the car, it was for changing the logos and name, and then use the car for public promotion.
Are you allowed to wrap the car?
Yes
This is the same thing I'm going through to get my Rolex Wimbledon.
You should make merch. Possibly shirts or hats, and maybe both.
Thanks will di
🔥🔥🔥🔥 I have to get you and you cars on my supercar channel soon.
I’ll be in Florida friday
@@WillMotivation what part? I’m in Miami.
Auto imports Miami at around 10am
@@WillMotivation oh ok I think thats in Ft. Lauderdale. I know where it is. Any other plans while you’re down here?
Just by a good second hand one,none of the lastest offerings really interest me,by the way dont let the v6 in the hybrid ferrari turn you off,that a real gem of a motor and i think it sounds way better than tha v8
Actually that car is spectacular!!! I would get one if it were not so ugly
Beautiful car!!!! Beautiful Choice
It’s all about supply and demand and the demand for the F8 was not high which is why they stopped production and they are gonna make a lot of 296 GTB’s and is one of if not the cheapest Ferrari’s you can buy. But Ferrari takes care of its loyal customers.
Hey Will let me know if you’re looking for new investment properties. I love to connect and do business.
And this is why i like Porsche or McLaren, or even Aston Martin (rip).Still beautifull and no additionnal BS.Those cars are already so expensive that’s only happy/lucky few can afford the tops one, so why should i accept rules because they are crazy confident?
You have absolutely no clue as to what the sports car ownership experience is like, do you? Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY in that world currently treat their clients as much like crap as Porsche does. What Porsche has been doing for the past 6-7 years makes what Ferrari did between 2000 and 2015 look like saints.
And McLaren? Lol. If you ever wanted to talk to a factory service department that would not give you the time of day, there you go.
Will is exactly right on this video. Most of the crap about Ferrari is not only in the past, even back then, a lot is about rumours. From a customer service standpoint, Ferrari Maranello is the best to deal with by a long shot. As a client in terms of how Ferrari treat you when it comes to events, family, racing and many, many other things, they are leaps and bounds ahead of the curve.
I own several cars both Porsche and Ferrari, and have dealt with McLaren and VAG. It is absolutely asinine that people still spew this crap because it simply is not true. You should really stop paying attention to morons like DDE and what Jay Leno says, or where ever it is you get your info.
@@AB-80X Wrong. Porsche treats long-term customers like royalty. Maybe you should look into the mirror or you can keep thinking it's a company problem.
@@andrewdinns1746
Wow, just wow. Why don't you go on Rennlist and post that?
Look in the mirror? What the hell does that have to do with anything? Here's a fun fact. I don't have much of a problem with my dealer, and I actually get some of the cars I'm interested in. I'm in Europe where things are different than in the US. What I talk about are experiences specifically pertaining to Porsche in the UK and US, and here is why it is a company problem.
Dealers in these countries are by far the worst when it comes to taking advantage of clients. Dealers in these countries are openly doing shady deals marking up cars making agreements buying back cars that have been sold for MSRP and then split the profit upon the next sale. Then there's the dealers who straight up mark up allocations, not even used cars. And when loyal clients who have been dealing with Porsche for years come by, they are basically told to buy at markup price. This is not something I pull from thin air. I not only personally have been involved with people in the US and UK via the Porsche community who has expereinced this treatment - I have personally stood in a Porsche dealer in New York, Austin and LA with friends, watching and listening as the dealer rep they have known and dealt with for one or two decades basically told them to pound sand unless they were willing to go way above. And it was the same last year when I visited my wife's niece in London and went to the Porsche dealer with her husband. Do you know why this is a company problem? Because Porsche UK and Porsche North America openly have stated that they will not ask dealers to refrain from these practises. Porsche will not stand up for people who have purchased many cars over the years, and they will accommodate a first time client who was willing to go in and pay 300k for a 992 GT3.
So what is your experiences based off of? What do you own? My experience as a buyer comes from buying the following cars within the past few years, and seeing how others have been treated. 991.2 GT3RS, 981 GT4, 991.2 GT3 PDK, 992 GT3T 6 and GT4RS in the past few years. Aside from that, I have a Taycan Turbo S and 991.2 GTS Cab, but my experience with Porsche extends back way further, just using this as recent examples. So whatever I think, actually has little to do with what I personally have been able to buy. I was also offered a GT3RS and S/T which I had no interest in. I am however, getting a Dakar.
Let's talk Ferrari for a second. Normal cars like the 296, Roma, F8, 812 etc. that are not low volume or VS cars, was and are something everyone can buy granted the dealer has an allocation. When you buy a new Ferrari, a dealer is not allowed to do any ADM's. Ferrari directly will hold dealers who tries this, responsible. And the games US dealers played, especially between 2008 and 2016, was something that was never approved by Maranello, and very much a dealer problem specific to the US. So now it's very simple. If you get an allocation, you get your car and you pay MSRP. That is a lot more than can be said for Porsche. There has been examples of clients with Porsche who have ordered and paid deposits for their cars and on the day of taking delivery, dealers have told set client that either he would have to pay a lot more, or the car would go to someone else. Some dealers have blatantly sold cars without even asking clients, just telling them here's your deposit, car was sold to someone else.
So maybe YOU should take a long and hard look in YOUR mirror and consider whether or not your affinity for Porsche is affecting your judgement. If you think Porsche as a company treats their clients like royalty and do their utmost to protect their clients from dealer games, you are clearly out of the loop or your judgement is severely clouded.
Would love to write check that big - awesome. 💯 I’m a Toyota guy in real life… 🤣
That’s a beautiful car salute 💯💪🏿
When a dealer has 30 allocations but there are 100 buyers want to put down orders, by nature, the dealer will give the 30 allocations to their loyal top clients and VIPs first. If you own that dealer, you will do the same, aren’t you?
Yes. But when it comes to the regular cars, many get a lot more than 30 allocations unless that dealer is tiny. Look at it this way. Over 10k 458's were sold in the US, compare that to the number of dealers.
Beautiful car brother, enjoy
Thanks 👍
I seen that video of Jay Leno complaining about Ferrari, it's no wonder Jay Leno doesn't want to deal with Ferrari.
"First" you qualify to buy the product from the car brand, -but that's not enough ! You pay over 400 grand" the dealership has rules concerning what you can't do to a Ferrari, (i'm certain the car brand also has similar rules).
You buy the product, and in some sense you do own it, but you're also being told what you can't do to it, and what not to do with it !
Break any of their rules" and you're banned from buying a Ferrari !
You'd be better-off renting the car !🌈🙄
Buying a Rolex from an AD has those same hoops you must jump through to make a purchase!
I wouldn't change a thing on a car that looks so gorgeous
ALL manufacturers will VOID the waranty on whatever part you modified.
- Perfectly understandable if you ask me.