Great video history of Saruman. My only disagreement is that he didn’t suffer a fate worse than Sauron. Their fates both were on par. That is, they were both reduced to mere shadows left to wonder Middle Earth eternally with no form or influence, other than sowing dark thoughts in the minds and hearts of men.
Hey, thanks for leaving a comment. 🙂 Yes, their fates were on par. It's just because when Saruman’s spirit looked towards the West, it can be interpreted that he did with regret and remorse. Meanwhile, Sauron's spirit rose his hands against the armies of the West as if in defiance. That is why I'm inclined to believe for Saruman the punishment will be much more painful. His spirit wanted to return home and repent but his actions had bound him to forever suffer. I believe while Sauron will wait for Dagor Dagorath with evil intent, Saruman might repent when the day comes. However, you're assessment is logically absolutely correct. 🙂
Is Sauron still alive in essence, to feel or experience anything? I thought he was dispersed, no longer existing in any conscious form. Saruman, however, is an almost spirit-like "existence". He literally walks the earth and has awareness of things, including his own suffering. I don't think Saron feels anything. I don't think he exists at all anymore. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm asking...???
@lake_cooper Gandalf explains in RotK that Sauron is not destroyed completely. The better part of his power was infused into the ring so when it was destroyed, his power went with it. He’s unable to ever take form again and he’s also unable to exert his will on the physical world (which is hell for him because his aim was to order the world in his own fashion). He is bound to the world but unable to do anything with it. He’s reduced to a spirit of malice, still conscious and able to darken hearts but nothing more.
In the illustration showing Frodo, Merry, and Pippin as they return to the Shire, Frodo is shown as taller than Merry and Pippin. In the book, Merry had grown much taller at this time because they had been drinking Entish water and had become the tallest hobbits in history, surpassing even pippin's ancestor, Bullroarer Took. The movies also overlook this fact, as the two are shown as normal Hobbit height throughout The Return Of The King.
Hey, great observation! You are correct. I should have noticed that, I apologize. 🙂 Their height especially comes to centre during the Scouring of the Shire where both of them lead the fight against the ruffinas. Maybe that is why PJ didn't made that change in the movies lol.
I've wondered if, had he not been killed by Grima, Saruman might not eventually have regained enough power to become another dark lord, albeit as weak compared to Sauron as Sauron was to Morgoth.
Hey, great question. 🙂 Saruman did create his Ring of Power as well, although it was nothing compared to Sauron's. Considering, he had a similar lust for power, and the fact he was trained under Aulë (like Sauron/Mairon) Saruman could potentially be a dark lord. However, I'm not sure even if Grima did leave him alive, he had enough spiritual strength left to regain that kind of control again. He was abandoned by Eru, the very source of his energy.
Very fascinating video.... I had not known that and maybe I had read it and did not pay attention but I did not know that his Spirit was rejected.... You said in the intro that his was worse than sauron baseline would have been rejected also so how would it have been worse if they were both in the same boat?
Hi, thank you for taking time to comment. The reasoning for the intro is that while Sauron's spirit was rejected much like Saruman's, Sauron's spirit didn't want to repent. (Explaned further ahead) It's also likely his spirit was sent to the Void which Bombadil describes as - "Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness, Where gates stand forever shut, till the world is mended." Although Tolkien never explicitly stated that Sauron ends up in the Void, we have this to go by - "In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." NOW, WHY I SAY SARUMAN’S FATE IS WORSE...!!! is because unlike Sauron he is definitely not sent to the Void. He is bound to suffer in the very lands he was sent to protect and destroyed. MOST IMPORTANYLY, in the end Saruman had regret. After leaving its physical form, his spirit looked towards the West longing. "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing." There is a stark difference between Saruman’s spirt versus Sauron's. When Sauron's spirit rose above Mordor he raised his hands towards the army of the West as if in defiance. Meanwhile, Saruman’s was the opposite. He was corrupted by evil and in its madness betrayed the path of Eru. He understood that when his life came to an end, and begged for a final chance to return home to the West. However, he had gone too far and his punishment to be bound to the confines of Arda without any powers, abilities or interactions will be far more painful than someone like Sauron who had no remorse and was likely to follow his master to the Timeless Void. I hope this gives some clarifications. I apologise for it being too long. 😅🙂
Saruman lost his Istari powers when Gandalf broke his staff at Isengard, reducing him to a mortal. His petty revenge on the hobbits brought him lower in Illuvetar's eyes. I was pretty much surprised that he wanted to go back to Valinor after that. I thought when I read it long ago that Illuvutar consigned him to nothingness.
Hey, Thank you for leaving a comment. 🙂 You're right, th AI narration does mess up the pronunciation at times. I do try to edit the words as they're supposed to sound, but it doesn't work everytime. 😅 Thank you for putting up with it lol
Thank you for leaving a comment! 🙂 I do believe when Dagor Dagorath comes, Morgoth will assemble all who have corrupted hearts. He will fight against the the armies of the West, the Valar and all who are good and pure. In such a battle, he will need his most crucial servant and that is Sauron. Since Morgoth is the strongest of the Gods after Eru, I think moulding Sauron back to his designs won't be a problem for him. He will probably even go further with him, the Balrogs, Dragons and whatever creatures he may breed. One must remember, he went back and forth with Eru's music by creating his own. Considering Dagor Dagorath will be his final opportunity to impose his will, he will bring his and his servant's worst.
As Saruman's spirit looked towards the West almost longingly, we can interpret that he might want to repent. The description does indicate he wanted to return to Valinor but his evil doing had him bound to the confines of middle-earth. However, it is a 50/50 situation. He was deeply corrupted by his lust for power, which goes back to his days as a Maia, long before he became a wizard. Personally, I'd like to belive he repents and unlike Melkor and his servants, is forgiven. 🙂
You're right, Uruks were bred in Mordor. Like Saruman's Uruks were branded by the "White hand," Sauron's had the "Red Eye." However, Saruman did improve upon the Uruks he bred in Isengard They were stronger, loyal to the Wizard, and most importantly were better immune to sunlight.
Thanks for leaving a comment. I'm still learning to write better scripts. Can you explain what you mean by that? Sourcing from different places does get in way writing with narrative flow.
@@FantasyRanger well there's preamble while among the maiar about how gandalf was timid and liked the comforts of home and how he had to be talked into going by one of the goddesses, being tac'd on at the end, not their leader how he took up the mantle specifically talked into it by God himself after defeating the balrog took the role from saruman specifically because he had fallen, not some plan from the beginning where he was just doing what he was meant to in the end saruman's "jealousy" came much later, gandalf being essentially a prized student until then gandalf himself being quite unpopular, nothing to envy, the stormcrow, the chaos bringer, because while his council was always wise, it was not always RIGHT and always came with disasters At least your response encourages me that you are NOT an AI
@@bethanydalton199 that can be a benefit rather than a hindrance if it's coming from an actual person reading it, an attempt to match what tolkein actually meant, not a new zealand bent on an american redraft of a final draft reprint of a terse english novel intentionally mimicking old norse
I have tagged my videos as AI Generated. It is visible and NOT HIDDEN to anybody. TH-cam literally asks us to specify that before we upload. If you have disagreements about things being out of order, the flow, inaccurate lore that is completely understandable. 👍
Great video history of Saruman. My only disagreement is that he didn’t suffer a fate worse than Sauron. Their fates both were on par. That is, they were both reduced to mere shadows left to wonder Middle Earth eternally with no form or influence, other than sowing dark thoughts in the minds and hearts of men.
Hey, thanks for leaving a comment. 🙂
Yes, their fates were on par. It's just because when Saruman’s spirit looked towards the West, it can be interpreted that he did with regret and remorse. Meanwhile, Sauron's spirit rose his hands against the armies of the West as if in defiance. That is why I'm inclined to believe for Saruman the punishment will be much more painful. His spirit wanted to return home and repent but his actions had bound him to forever suffer.
I believe while Sauron will wait for Dagor Dagorath with evil intent, Saruman might repent when the day comes. However, you're assessment is logically absolutely correct. 🙂
Is Sauron still alive in essence, to feel or experience anything? I thought he was dispersed, no longer existing in any conscious form. Saruman, however, is an almost spirit-like "existence". He literally walks the earth and has awareness of things, including his own suffering. I don't think Saron feels anything. I don't think he exists at all anymore.
If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm asking...???
@lake_cooper Gandalf explains in RotK that Sauron is not destroyed completely. The better part of his power was infused into the ring so when it was destroyed, his power went with it. He’s unable to ever take form again and he’s also unable to exert his will on the physical world (which is hell for him because his aim was to order the world in his own fashion). He is bound to the world but unable to do anything with it. He’s reduced to a spirit of malice, still conscious and able to darken hearts but nothing more.
In the illustration showing Frodo, Merry, and Pippin as they return to the Shire, Frodo is shown as taller than Merry and Pippin. In the book, Merry had grown much taller at this time because they had been drinking Entish water and had become the tallest hobbits in history, surpassing even pippin's ancestor, Bullroarer Took. The movies also overlook this fact, as the two are shown as normal Hobbit height throughout The Return Of The King.
Hey, great observation!
You are correct. I should have noticed that, I apologize. 🙂
Their height especially comes to centre during the Scouring of the Shire where both of them lead the fight against the ruffinas. Maybe that is why PJ didn't made that change in the movies lol.
17:02
I've wondered if, had he not been killed by Grima, Saruman might not eventually have regained enough power to become another dark lord, albeit as weak compared to Sauron as Sauron was to Morgoth.
Hey, great question. 🙂
Saruman did create his Ring of Power as well, although it was nothing compared to Sauron's. Considering, he had a similar lust for power, and the fact he was trained under Aulë (like Sauron/Mairon) Saruman could potentially be a dark lord.
However, I'm not sure even if Grima did leave him alive, he had enough spiritual strength left to regain that kind of control again. He was abandoned by Eru, the very source of his energy.
Very fascinating video.... I had not known that and maybe I had read it and did not pay attention but I did not know that his Spirit was rejected.... You said in the intro that his was worse than sauron baseline would have been rejected also so how would it have been worse if they were both in the same boat?
Hi, thank you for taking time to comment.
The reasoning for the intro is that while Sauron's spirit was rejected much like Saruman's, Sauron's spirit didn't want to repent. (Explaned further ahead)
It's also likely his spirit was sent to the Void which Bombadil describes as -
"Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,
Where gates stand forever shut, till the world is mended."
Although Tolkien never explicitly stated that Sauron ends up in the Void, we have this to go by -
"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."
NOW, WHY I SAY SARUMAN’S FATE IS WORSE...!!!
is because unlike Sauron he is definitely not sent to the Void. He is bound to suffer in the very lands he was sent to protect and destroyed.
MOST IMPORTANYLY, in the end Saruman had regret. After leaving its physical form, his spirit looked towards the West longing.
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."
There is a stark difference between Saruman’s spirt versus Sauron's. When Sauron's spirit rose above Mordor he raised his hands towards the army of the West as if in defiance.
Meanwhile, Saruman’s was the opposite. He was corrupted by evil and in its madness betrayed the path of Eru. He understood that when his life came to an end, and begged for a final chance to return home to the West. However, he had gone too far and his punishment to be bound to the confines of Arda without any powers, abilities or interactions will be far more painful than someone like Sauron who had no remorse and was likely to follow his master to the Timeless Void.
I hope this gives some clarifications. I apologise for it being too long. 😅🙂
I guess you didn't know that there's a final battle, morgoth returns. And gathers spirits that are bound to him for the final hoedown.
Saruman lost his Istari powers when Gandalf broke his staff at Isengard, reducing him to a mortal. His petty revenge on the hobbits brought him lower in Illuvetar's eyes. I was pretty much surprised that he wanted to go back to Valinor after that. I thought when I read it long ago that Illuvutar consigned him to nothingness.
In PJ movies When Gandalf kills the Balrog he becomes The white wizard. The problem with this AI is sometimes it mispronounces words.
Hey, Thank you for leaving a comment. 🙂
You're right, th AI narration does mess up the pronunciation at times. I do try to edit the words as they're supposed to sound, but it doesn't work everytime. 😅
Thank you for putting up with it lol
The question is: What will he do when Morgoth returns? When he then still joins Morgoth he has completely lost his mind.
Thank you for leaving a comment! 🙂
I do believe when Dagor Dagorath comes, Morgoth will assemble all who have corrupted hearts. He will fight against the the armies of the West, the Valar and all who are good and pure.
In such a battle, he will need his most crucial servant and that is Sauron. Since Morgoth is the strongest of the Gods after Eru, I think moulding Sauron back to his designs won't be a problem for him. He will probably even go further with him, the Balrogs, Dragons and whatever creatures he may breed.
One must remember, he went back and forth with Eru's music by creating his own. Considering Dagor Dagorath will be his final opportunity to impose his will, he will bring his and his servant's worst.
@FantasyRanger And what will Saruman do?
As Saruman's spirit looked towards the West almost longingly, we can interpret that he might want to repent.
The description does indicate he wanted to return to Valinor but his evil doing had him bound to the confines of middle-earth.
However, it is a 50/50 situation. He was deeply corrupted by his lust for power, which goes back to his days as a Maia, long before he became a wizard.
Personally, I'd like to belive he repents and unlike Melkor and his servants, is forgiven. 🙂
I read that mordor had created goblin men before saruman think it is in return of the king book Shagrat and Gorbag
You're right, Uruks were bred in Mordor. Like Saruman's Uruks were branded by the "White hand," Sauron's had the "Red Eye."
However, Saruman did improve upon the Uruks he bred in Isengard They were stronger, loyal to the Wizard, and most importantly were better immune to sunlight.
Was this AI generated?
because... no...
things are out of order
the plan to send the 5 in particular
Thanks for leaving a comment.
I'm still learning to write better scripts.
Can you explain what you mean by that?
Sourcing from different places does get in way writing with narrative flow.
I think so too. The pronunciations seem off, especially Galadriel.
@@FantasyRanger well there's preamble while among the maiar about how gandalf was timid and liked the comforts of home and how he had to be talked into going by one of the goddesses, being tac'd on at the end, not their leader
how he took up the mantle specifically talked into it by God himself after defeating the balrog
took the role from saruman specifically because he had fallen, not some plan from the beginning where he was just doing what he was meant to in the end
saruman's "jealousy" came much later, gandalf being essentially a prized student until then
gandalf himself being quite unpopular, nothing to envy, the stormcrow, the chaos bringer, because while his council was always wise, it was not always RIGHT and always came with disasters
At least your response encourages me that you are NOT an AI
@@bethanydalton199 that can be a benefit rather than a hindrance if it's coming from an actual person reading it, an attempt to match what tolkein actually meant, not a new zealand bent on an american redraft of a final draft reprint of a terse english novel intentionally mimicking old norse
I have tagged my videos as AI Generated. It is visible and NOT HIDDEN to anybody.
TH-cam literally asks us to specify that before we upload.
If you have disagreements about things being out of order, the flow, inaccurate lore that is completely understandable. 👍