very educational, I have looked for something like this for a long time, I have even asked at drum clinics, still never got a response of quality, Your demonstration is excellent and well presented. A side shot of your legs to show your feet and legs would be the icing on the cake. Again thanks for your in depth information. Much appreciated - Cheers Bruce
Hey brother I saw this vid years ago and it certainly helped!! Thank you :) Today in deepening my knowledge on the drums some of your newer videos came across my feed and I immediately recognized your voice and personable approach to how you explain things. I find your teachings very informative and detailed. Please keep sharing with us your pearls of knowledge and your passion for this beautiful instrument. Timmy Deustsch is right! Happy New Year.
This video is amazing. This just changed my drumming life. Thank you for taking the time to explain the importance of your back in relation to drumming!!!
thanks so much for taking the time to make this video, i have been suffering for years, and at 41 i almost thought it was time to give up, but you have givin me hope!, thanks ,trig,
Great points and an extremely important topic. I’ve played for 20 years and have dealt with severe back issues for half of that. I always refused to believe it was the drums because I sit with proper posture, height, throne (I do the same thing, backward rock n soc), etc... I’ve realized the problem is weight shifting from side to side, which was affirmed by this video. I have the same issue you described - hip tilted off axis and one shoulder is higher than the other when I stand up straight. I have several herniations all up my spine. My question now is how to minimize the trauma of weight shifting, as I seem to be doing everything “right.” I exercise to strengthen my core, but I don’t really engage my core (conciously) while drumming, as I’ve always tried to stay relaxed as possible. I’ll try lightly flexing my abs like you mentioned. I’ve always played a mixture of heel up and heel down depending on dynamics and style, but I’m thinking of changing to heel down only to minimize the weight shifting. I want to feel as relaxed, balanced, and pain free as possible so badly. Thanks for the ideas. Is there other content I can research?
Cordial congrats! You analyze a subject that is the most important in drumming. This should have been the starting point for every future drummer and the -return to- reference for all drummers regardless of their level. There are thousands of videos explaining how to build up technique, speed, stamina, how to do stick tricks etc but these things come useless when you are in pain because of wrong posture. I loved your way of explaining/analyzing. Simple, comprehensive, yet well argued points! Keep up the excellent work!
I think the concern with throne height is related to double bass technique. I'm 10 years older than you and have never had back pain because I played with one bass pedal, heel down, very comfortably balanced on my throne with weight into my heels. Now I'm trying to learn double bass with my heels up. That changes everything. It is forcing me to try and get more grounded in my throne alone and sitting higher makes it easier to play the pedals with the balls of my feet.
You’re totally right about all this man. I have EDS, a connective tissue disorder and have been using drumming to help me as basically physical therapy. I started just with a practice pad for like 10-15 minutes at a time, but always made sure my posture was correct and all that to work on my core especially and back muscles etc. Eventually I worked my way up to a full kit that I have now and play like 3-5 days a week usually depending how I feel and the time ranges as well. It truly does help your core muscles a ton if you do repetitively do exercises of whatever type of rudiment or whatever you wanna play whilst holding your body properly. It’ll take some time though, don’t expect overnight results.
Thanks for doing the video Jai. I broke 4 bones in my back plus 4 other bones around 9 years ago, from being hit by a car whilst riding my bicycle to work. Back pain is my constant un-welcomed friend :( I have a Pearl Roadster Drum Throne D2000BR. It has a section missing for the coccyx, but isn't in two separate sections. I find it very comfortable as I have the back rest adjusted so that it presses into the small of my back. In fact, I know if I'm slouching because I won't be able to feel it there in the middle of my back. It's a good personal check for myself. Before my accident I never gave a great deal of thought to my drum set up or posture & how the 2 go hand in hand. I certainly do now. It's good to hear you talking about rebound. I have recently learnt the Level System: Full or Free Stroke - Drumstick starts high & finishes high. Down Stroke - Drumstick starts high & finishes low. Tap Stroke - Drumstick starts low & finishes low. Up Stroke - Drumstick starts low & finishes high. Half Stroke - Drumstick starts & finishes at the halfway position. Learning the Level System has helped me conserve energy & let me stay more relaxed by preparing my hands for the next up & coming accents or ghosted notes in any piece of music. Once again thanks Jai :)
have you seen Carmichael thrones?..................big help for me ....it has a split and i dont get the warpage you descibed that maybe is present on the AHEAD version of split throne....i have checked them all too...a long journey....but it actually SAVED me.......let me be clear, ive been playing for 35 yrs and this video was fantastic!!!!!!!! ive walked this path.....adjusting in every area you mentioned...... i liked your section on leg angling.....very informative and for that i thank you......i look forward to more from you and your great channel ! :) i am happy to sub as a result of this and i am happy to support . Great job!
I was one of the first official endorsers for the Carmichael throne, as a matter of fact their line free floating spine was created by me. That throne will destroy your back. It may alleviate pressure off the lower back but it 100% throws your hips and shoulders completely off balance. If you have one spin it 180 degrees and become aware of the horror you're sitting on.
Hi Jai! Awesome video! What do you think of those thrones with a back rest? Even saddle or "normal" thrones can have those rests but are they a good thing?
ONE☝ Extremely Important Thing That He's Not Talking About, Is Using A Backrest!! He feels it should only be used to rest in between songs!! and I disagree!! I use the Roc and Soc motorcycle seat style with the Backrest, lowered all the way down to support my lower back!! where I lean back into the backrest, but to where your back is straight up and down!! and it makes a super big difference in how comfortable your back will feel while you play!! guaranteed!! Lower Back Support Is Extremely Important To Avoid Any Back Problems!!!
Hi,Jai! I completely agree with everything you're saying 100% but there's one thing I noticed in doing the same thing you did with my seat height trying to be relaxed and having good back posture I've had back surgery as far as getting good rebound from your sticks here is something I discovered and this helps me more to sit up straight with better posture and to make it even more comfortable for me was bringing my snare up to the middle of my belly button such a great position especially if you use traditional grip anyway keep doing what you're doing with your great videos. bless! PS. What brand of cymbals are you using they sound fantastic in the video? thanks! I haven't had a chance to try the Round Roc-n-soc but I did switch my seat form a Roc-n-soc bike seat that was killing me to the Carmichael drum throne 13" round the one with the 3in channel in the middle I like it very much but I'm very interested in the round Roc-n-soc I would love to see how it feels compared to the Carmichael?
Hi Jai, Thanks for doing this video. I, like you have been through heaps of thrones trying to find the right one. Can you please tell me what throne you are using currently? Dave from Sydney
Damn man! You made me go get out a bubble spirit tool to measure my leg height on my hi hat and foot pedal, turns out I was waaay lower on the left foot! Been having back and shoulder problems for way too long now (keeping me off the drums) on my whole left side basically! Ive also put a mirror Infront because I'm sure I raise my shoulders way to much (as well as hunch)! With thisnfo I'll try to get back on the throne and hopefully get better! Do you have any more videos on general ergonomics and Tom/snare height? (Hope your backs better as well!!
I agree with Cymatic 7. I am skipping through this video like crazy just digging for any small bit of useful information. This could be an 8 minute video. I cant get through it because of all the anecdotes.
Unfortunately much of the information contained in this video would have to be considered misleading and ill informed I would recommend seeking out videos that are produced by recognised Health professionals
You have back pain because you don't stretch and you don't work your back out. Your posture sucks and you don't even know it. If your bed sucks that can obviously cause pain too. Work your legs out and your knees will stop hurting too. Good luck yall.
Hey I like your vids. However there is One constructive critique I do have. I think you should be more to the point and condense your videos a little more. Some of the best vids are good because they are short and to the point and you obtain a lot of info in a short time. I have unbearable back problems after 2 hours of band practice so when I saw this vid I was immediately drawn to it. HOWEVER I don't have 30 minutes on my hands to learn about it so I find myself skipping through just to get to key information. Maybe such elaboration is good for others and im just more of a to the point person. Not trying to put the vid down, just thought Id give my preference. Good job tho, keep it up.
Totally hear you but redundancy and repetitiveness and detailed instruction are what people need these days. There are plenty of quick 2 minute lessons out there but for me, there is more than notation and a few sentences. Also if you don't have 30 minutes to invest in listening to something fully maybe you are loading yourself up with too much to do. Granted you can probably skip through the video and still get the gist of it but I guarantee you missed something in there that would have probably resonated with you. I often talk about more than just the one topic at hand :) Thank you though.. appreciate the feedback
this is quite interesting, but the bit about seat height is a bit ....what? really? lol how can you decide that the reason for people rasing seat height is beacause they are misinterpreting a perceived angle of a youtube players legs? thats over stretching, without evidence. cool other wise. (i probably could explain the earlier point a little better. but am pressed for time)
Look at the shape of the drummers spine, if their spine is curved like a bow they're sitting too far away or they're sitting too high. When you lower your seat this enables you to have a properly aligned spine and a stronger core. All you need to do is look at the position of a drummers back and their neck and their hips to knee ratio to tell if a drummer is sitting too high. Since TH-cam is such a strong force in influencing drummers, it has become a tool for drummers to use even in setting up a kit. Most drummers put aside personal ergonomics and only do what they see someone else doing as opposed to setting it up for their own body. :)
+Jai Es I totally agree about youtube being one of the strongest influence. it has changed the way people learn, form IT to cooking its making waves. I was commenting more on the viewing angle when legs are on pedals and when legs are pulled back with feet behind the stool, that bit about how it looks. But yeah, I totally agree with this video. I jsut watched your moeller explanation vid as well. Both very interesting, and it is nice to hear somebody go into so much detail. I have been debating waht type of throne to replace the crappy 40 pound one that came free with my kit, and this video has totally changed my approach. I was looking at a split seat throne as well, but the wallet in the back pocket explanation makes so much sense, and I know i have terrible posture at the moment. My back hurts since I have got back into drummming.it is for sure down to my terrile posture, plus a throne than wobbles. speding all my time balanching with my feet rather than being able to use the pedals is also annoying. thanks for the videos and good luck with your DVD!
:p will do. its crazy. i played my kit jsut a minute ago and was thi8nking about your video (positioning,distance,relaxing, height) and i noticed that shifting wieght, poor distribution of mass issue. thanks a lot man.
Its not only YT videos its the perspective one sees a drummer sitting at. There is not earhtly reaon for a drummer to sit so high over the set that their legs are almost full extended. They then bend over the kit in such a bad way. Seat height is why a drummer either slouches or reaches up too much. It is absolutely one of the most important factors regarding back pain at the kit. Also what is everyone doing in their lives that they need fast food lessons? I don't do quick serve meals... Minimize your tasks, lessen possessions and you'll find more time to sit and watch cool videos.
i am sold. I'm a drummer of 20+ years and am in horrible pain all the time. this video is a god send!!!! thank you. ill buy your dvd
very educational, I have looked for something like this for a long time, I have even asked at drum clinics, still never got a response of quality, Your demonstration is excellent and well presented. A side shot of your legs to show your feet and legs would be the icing on the cake. Again thanks for your in depth information. Much appreciated - Cheers Bruce
Hey brother I saw this vid years ago and it certainly helped!! Thank you :) Today in deepening my knowledge on the drums some of your newer videos came across my feed and I immediately recognized your voice and personable approach to how you explain things. I find your teachings very informative and detailed. Please keep sharing with us your pearls of knowledge and your passion for this beautiful instrument. Timmy Deustsch is right! Happy New Year.
Thank you for your precious suggestions
This video is amazing. This just changed my drumming life. Thank you for taking the time to explain the importance of your back in relation to drumming!!!
Probably the best 35 minutes I've spent on TH-cam drum videos in the last 2 years.
Thank you
thanks so much for taking the time to make this video, i have been suffering for years, and at 41 i almost thought it was time to give up, but you have givin me hope!, thanks ,trig,
Great points and an extremely important topic. I’ve played for 20 years and have dealt with severe back issues for half of that. I always refused to believe it was the drums because I sit with proper posture, height, throne (I do the same thing, backward rock n soc), etc... I’ve realized the problem is weight shifting from side to side, which was affirmed by this video. I have the same issue you described - hip tilted off axis and one shoulder is higher than the other when I stand up straight. I have several herniations all up my spine. My question now is how to minimize the trauma of weight shifting, as I seem to be doing everything “right.” I exercise to strengthen my core, but I don’t really engage my core (conciously) while drumming, as I’ve always tried to stay relaxed as possible. I’ll try lightly flexing my abs like you mentioned. I’ve always played a mixture of heel up and heel down depending on dynamics and style, but I’m thinking of changing to heel down only to minimize the weight shifting. I want to feel as relaxed, balanced, and pain free as possible so badly. Thanks for the ideas. Is there other content I can research?
Cordial congrats! You analyze a subject that is the most important in drumming. This should have been the starting point for every future drummer and the -return to- reference for all drummers regardless of their level. There are thousands of videos explaining how to build up technique, speed, stamina, how to do stick tricks etc but these things come useless when you are in pain because of wrong posture. I loved your way of explaining/analyzing. Simple, comprehensive, yet well argued points! Keep up the excellent work!
I think the concern with throne height is related to double bass technique. I'm 10 years older than you and have never had back pain because I played with one bass pedal, heel down, very comfortably balanced on my throne with weight into my heels. Now I'm trying to learn double bass with my heels up. That changes everything. It is forcing me to try and get more grounded in my throne alone and sitting higher makes it easier to play the pedals with the balls of my feet.
You’re totally right about all this man. I have EDS, a connective tissue disorder and have been using drumming to help me as basically physical therapy. I started just with a practice pad for like 10-15 minutes at a time, but always made sure my posture was correct and all that to work on my core especially and back muscles etc. Eventually I worked my way up to a full kit that I have now and play like 3-5 days a week usually depending how I feel and the time ranges as well.
It truly does help your core muscles a ton if you do repetitively do exercises of whatever type of rudiment or whatever you wanna play whilst holding your body properly. It’ll take some time though, don’t expect overnight results.
Thank you for all these great tips!
Once again, awesome video! Your videos should be included in the training program of EACH beginners! Keep the good work!!
Thanks for doing the video Jai.
I broke 4 bones in my back plus 4 other bones around 9 years ago, from being hit by a car whilst riding my bicycle to work. Back pain is my constant un-welcomed friend :(
I have a Pearl Roadster Drum Throne D2000BR. It has a section missing for the coccyx, but isn't in two separate sections. I find it very comfortable as I have the back rest adjusted so that it presses into the small of my back. In fact, I know if I'm slouching because I won't be able to feel it there in the middle of my back. It's a good personal check for myself.
Before my accident I never gave a great deal of thought to my drum set up or posture & how the 2 go hand in hand. I certainly do now.
It's good to hear you talking about rebound. I have recently learnt the Level System:
Full or Free Stroke - Drumstick starts high & finishes high.
Down Stroke - Drumstick starts high & finishes low.
Tap Stroke - Drumstick starts low & finishes low.
Up Stroke - Drumstick starts low & finishes high.
Half Stroke - Drumstick starts & finishes at the halfway position.
Learning the Level System has helped me conserve energy & let me stay more relaxed by preparing my hands for the next up & coming accents or ghosted notes in any piece of music.
Once again thanks Jai :)
Thanks for video,i play from 3 years and i have low back pain,i will try to change my poster,thanks again
Thanks for this video
Wish i had this video 20yrs ago..(O: nice job
FANTASTIC INFO. ALL TRUE!
Great video Jai! it explained a lot.thanx!
thanks for the video, Jai! Very, very helpful info!!
I love lessons like this not the typical lesson love the anatomy of playing this instrument
Great info!
Thank you very much.
Thanks! You should do a video on protecting our hearing. I do not and can not play without hearing protection!
Lol you smooth with it bro!!
have you seen Carmichael thrones?..................big help for me ....it has a split and i dont get the warpage you descibed that maybe is present on the AHEAD version of split throne....i have checked them all too...a long journey....but it actually SAVED me.......let me be clear, ive been playing for 35 yrs and this video was fantastic!!!!!!!! ive walked this path.....adjusting in every area you mentioned...... i liked your section on leg angling.....very informative and for that i thank you......i look forward to more from you and your great channel ! :) i am happy to sub as a result of this and i am happy to support . Great job!
I was one of the first official endorsers for the Carmichael throne, as a matter of fact their line free floating spine was created by me. That throne will destroy your back. It may alleviate pressure off the lower back but it 100% throws your hips and shoulders completely off balance. If you have one spin it 180 degrees and become aware of the horror you're sitting on.
@@DrummerJaiEs Couldn't this issue be avoided by just spinning it 180 degrees once a month to keep it even over time?
Hi Jai! Awesome video! What do you think of those thrones with a back rest? Even saddle or "normal" thrones can have those rests but are they a good thing?
Thiago Lima thanks so much, back rest are good for resting between songs :)
Jai Es Thank you very much!
Thanks heaps
For great back health I'd recommend looking up foundation training by Eric Goodman. He has a bunch of material here on youtube!
oh...you didnt waste your time... :) greetings from new orleans and los angeles :)
ONE☝ Extremely Important Thing That He's Not Talking About, Is Using A Backrest!! He feels it should only be used to rest in between songs!! and I disagree!! I use the Roc and Soc motorcycle seat style with the Backrest, lowered all the way down to support my lower back!! where I lean back into the backrest, but to where your back is straight up and down!! and it makes a super big difference in how comfortable your back will feel while you play!! guaranteed!! Lower Back Support Is Extremely Important To Avoid Any Back Problems!!!
Hi,Jai!
I completely agree with everything you're saying 100% but there's one thing I noticed in doing the same thing you did with my seat height trying to be relaxed and having good back posture I've had back surgery as far as getting good rebound from your sticks here is something I discovered and this helps me more to sit up straight with better posture and to make it even more comfortable for me was bringing my snare up to the middle of my belly button such a great position especially if you use traditional grip anyway keep doing what you're doing with your great videos.
bless!
PS. What brand of cymbals are you using they sound fantastic in the video?
thanks!
I haven't had a chance to try the Round Roc-n-soc but I did switch my seat form a Roc-n-soc bike seat that was killing me to the Carmichael drum throne 13" round the one with the 3in channel in the middle I like it very much but I'm very interested in the round Roc-n-soc I would love to see how it feels compared to the Carmichael?
have you tried the diff of carmichael from round roc n soc?
moto seat is bad?
Hi Jai,
Thanks for doing this video.
I, like you have been through heaps of thrones trying to find the right one. Can you please tell me what throne you are using currently?
Dave from Sydney
Damn man! You made me go get out a bubble spirit tool to measure my leg height on my hi hat and foot pedal, turns out I was waaay lower on the left foot! Been having back and shoulder problems for way too long now (keeping me off the drums) on my whole left side basically! Ive also put a mirror Infront because I'm sure I raise my shoulders way to much (as well as hunch)! With thisnfo I'll try to get back on the throne and hopefully get better! Do you have any more videos on general ergonomics and Tom/snare height? (Hope your backs better as well!!
I had to come back and sincerely thank you for putting your dvd out here for free! (Or at least I'm guessing it is haha!)! Really nice of you!! :)
your websites are down
I do everything right and i get lower back pain in 10 minutes. I have displaced spine disc though. Please help. Im only 29 and i feel like my grandpa.
I've been practicing six hours a day for the past month and I notice I have pain in my hip flexor on my right side.
Me the same dude! I want change my drumthrone (Ive got cheeap and old one)
Relax it a bit. Ease up. No reason to put that much strain on your leg. Also doing some basis stretches before and after would help
Hibro
I think I love you
I agree with Cymatic 7. I am skipping through this video like crazy just digging for any small bit of useful information. This could be an 8 minute video. I cant get through it because of all the anecdotes.
Unfortunately much of the information contained in this video would have to be considered misleading and ill informed
I would recommend seeking out videos that are produced by recognised Health professionals
next one should be about hemorrhoids :)
Er w h a t
You have back pain because you don't stretch and you don't work your back out. Your posture sucks and you don't even know it. If your bed sucks that can obviously cause pain too. Work your legs out and your knees will stop hurting too. Good luck yall.
Hey I like your vids. However there is One constructive critique I do have. I think you should be more to the point and condense your videos a little more. Some of the best vids are good because they are short and to the point and you obtain a lot of info in a short time. I have unbearable back problems after 2 hours of band practice so when I saw this vid I was immediately drawn to it. HOWEVER I don't have 30 minutes on my hands to learn about it so I find myself skipping through just to get to key information. Maybe such elaboration is good for others and im just more of a to the point person. Not trying to put the vid down, just thought Id give my preference. Good job tho, keep it up.
Totally hear you but redundancy and repetitiveness and detailed instruction are what people need these days. There are plenty of quick 2 minute lessons out there but for me, there is more than notation and a few sentences. Also if you don't have 30 minutes to invest in listening to something fully maybe you are loading yourself up with too much to do. Granted you can probably skip through the video and still get the gist of it but I guarantee you missed something in there that would have probably resonated with you. I often talk about more than just the one topic at hand :) Thank you though.. appreciate the feedback
this is quite interesting, but the bit about seat height is a bit ....what? really? lol how can you decide that the reason for people rasing seat height is beacause they are misinterpreting a perceived angle of a youtube players legs? thats over stretching, without evidence. cool other wise. (i probably could explain the earlier point a little better. but am pressed for time)
Look at the shape of the drummers spine, if their spine is curved like a bow they're sitting too far away or they're sitting too high. When you lower your seat this enables you to have a properly aligned spine and a stronger core. All you need to do is look at the position of a drummers back and their neck and their hips to knee ratio to tell if a drummer is sitting too high. Since TH-cam is such a strong force in influencing drummers, it has become a tool for drummers to use even in setting up a kit. Most drummers put aside personal ergonomics and only do what they see someone else doing as opposed to setting it up for their own body. :)
+Jai Es I totally agree about youtube being one of the strongest influence. it has changed the way people learn, form IT to cooking its making waves. I was commenting more on the viewing angle when legs are on pedals and when legs are pulled back with feet behind the stool, that bit about how it looks.
But yeah, I totally agree with this video. I jsut watched your moeller explanation vid as well. Both very interesting, and it is nice to hear somebody go into so much detail. I have been debating waht type of throne to replace the crappy 40 pound one that came free with my kit, and this video has totally changed my approach. I was looking at a split seat throne as well, but the wallet in the back pocket explanation makes so much sense, and I know i have terrible posture at the moment. My back hurts since I have got back into drummming.it is for sure down to my terrile posture, plus a throne than wobbles. speding all my time balanching with my feet rather than being able to use the pedals is also annoying.
thanks for the videos and good luck with your DVD!
+kiopl2003 check out the round roc n soc throne with the dimple in it :) incredible !
:p will do. its crazy. i played my kit jsut a minute ago and was thi8nking about your video (positioning,distance,relaxing, height) and i noticed that shifting wieght, poor distribution of mass issue. thanks a lot man.
Its not only YT videos its the perspective one sees a drummer sitting at. There is not earhtly reaon for a drummer to sit so high over the set that their legs are almost full extended. They then bend over the kit in such a bad way. Seat height is why a drummer either slouches or reaches up too much. It is absolutely one of the most important factors regarding back pain at the kit. Also what is everyone doing in their lives that they need fast food lessons? I don't do quick serve meals... Minimize your tasks, lessen possessions and you'll find more time to sit and watch cool videos.