Play Testing 21 Tenor Sax Mouthpieces | Otto Link, Theo Wanne, GetASax, 10mFan & more
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- I'll show you the inside of each mouthpiece as I play it so you can compare the sound I get with the mouthpiece design.
📙 ⬇️ 𝗗𝗼𝘄𝗻𝗹𝗼𝗮𝗱 𝗕𝗼𝗯'𝘀 𝟳 "𝗧" 𝗣𝗿𝗮𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝗺𝗲𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗜𝗺𝗽𝗿𝗼𝘃𝗶𝘀𝗲𝗿𝘀:
jazzpracticepyramid.com
📖 Download the étude play-along mentioned in the video ► bobreynoldsmusic.com/ipanema
Here's what happened to the Otto Link 9 I’ve played for 25 years: • RIP My Saxophone Mouth...
00:00 - Ground rules & gear setup
02:36 - Otto Link 9 with 4 types of reeds
09:40 - Solo étude play-along
10:16 - Get A Sax mouthpieces
11:04 - Comparing baffles
13:44 - GS Slant 9
15:18 - GS Slant 9 - SP2
16:54 - GS Slant 9 - SP3
18:28 - GS Slant 9 - SP5 even facing v1
20:31 - GS Slant 9 - SP5 even facing v2
22:06 - GS Slant 9 - SP5 UN-even facing v1
23:56 - GS Slant 9 - SP5 UN-even facing v2
25:28 - GS Reso 9* - UN-even facing
27:21 - 10M Fan - Cabernet 9*
30:46 - 10M Fan - Cabernet 9* (.120mm)
32:55 - D’Addario Jazz Select DM9
34:33 - AM Arnold Montgomery
38:38 - Theo Wanne Lakshmi 9
40:18 - Theo Wanne Lakshmi 9*
42:07 - Theo Wanne Slant Signature 9
44:46 - Theo Wanne Slant Signature 9*
46:39 - Theo Wanne Ambika 9
48:33 - Rorshach 8* by Ohls
50:33 - Rovner Avatar 9
53:21 - Vincent Toner
My search is not over. In fact, a new round of mouthpieces showed up after I completed this video. lol
Huge thanks to Brian Curry @GetASax who’s gone above and beyond working out the smallest of changes to create something as close to what I was used to as possible. Thanks also to Matt Ambrose @TheowanneMouthpieces Mark Sepinuck @10MFAN Arnold Montgomery from AM Mouthpieces, Zach @RovnerProducts and the folks @DAddarioWoodwinds
#saxophone #mouthpiece
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How quickly I clicked on this video shows that I may never get over the gear curiosity
I'm a simple man. I see Bob uploaded a video. I click :)
Right! I was talking to my mom on the phone and when I saw the video I told her “ hey let me call you back in an hour” 😅
3 1/2 sounds better
Same here, Bob always has good content! 🎷
Objectively speaking, you sound so fantastic on all of them- with that said, after listening to your recordings for so many years, personally, as soon as I heard the Ambika it stood out to me as “Bob”.
An Ambika is a hot rod link , updated mpc
I just opened this but think this may be the most important mouthpiece video ever made.
Man, talk about a master class in "it's not the gear, it's the player."
“Sell it! Sell it I say!” 🤣🤣🤣
Your sound is most like your sound (and the way play) on the first Tone Edge. The others are *great* no doubt, but it feels like they shift you into playing a different way. Such a game of fine nuances.
I know what you mean
The D'addario select jazz continues to surprise me! it plays extremely well for its price point and is definitely at home in the case of any gigging professional. I used my D6M for around 2 years and it possessed a really thick husky core which you demonstrated perfectly! I've recently retired it after trying out a Drake FG but It's a piece that I will always hold in great regard.
Thanks really invaluable demo. I like the Getasax pieces in you the best. Good luck.
Well -This has been epic Bob. Thank you very much!!!!
Thanks for doing this Bob. Super interesting!
Sounds great. I think I’d have a hernia if I played a 4 Reed on your set up. Wow.
🤣
Man you make them all sound wonderful. Get the one that makes you smile!
I love the original Otto Link with your Royal 3.5. That´s all you need.
WOW. All mouthpieces sounded great but by the ambika is really in a league of its own. I’ve been playing on Otto link on tenor and a vintage Phil Barone(Meyer) on alto and what a Theo wanne mouth piece has done to my sound is something I can’t even put into words. For players like you who have had their sound solidified for years it’s hard to make a switch but from all of them it seems like the ambika shines upon whats so great about your sound and tone. Awesome video!!!
Lakshmi and Ambika the best sounds by far (to my taste). The D´Daddario also sounds amazing.
I second this. To me the D’addario sounded the best though imo
Agreed, he sounded GREAT on all, the LAKSHMI sounded the very best and he looked super comfortable playing it, NO STRAIN. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼.
Yes! Bob sounds like Bob no matter what he plays and that's really cool. My take is Lakshmi, D'Daddario, Ambika. Very close though. Either/or. The D'Daddario is the biggest surprise to me.
This was a pleasure to listen to and wonderful to see your kid commenting. Whenever I'm torn on gear decisions, my 4-year-old's opinions are the most honest I can find. From a resistance comfort standpoint, it sounded to me like you had the least adaptation to do on the Link, the GS Reso, and the Arnold Montgomery. Several others sounded fantastic but seemed to have a kind of immediacy you had to adjust to. I hope you get a chance to try the Reso in an even facing and this made me want to try an Arnold Montgomery since I've never had the chance to. Thanks for being so open and informative with your process!
wow so many different sounds
and also so many different votes from the listeners.....very interesting!
i like the GS Reso 9* and the vincent toner most
but you sound the best!
Thanks a lot for sharing you process
Hey Bob, you sounded great on the Theo Wanne, good air flow and and bends(so nice!), also up and down sounded very freely. :)
Hi Bob. Wow, that's quite the collection. Your characteristic sound was the same on all of them, but I preferred the ones that had more clarity. GS Slant 9, D'Addario, and Theo Slant were my picks
Bob I have loved and admired your sound for years. I know this is a decision you must make based on what feels the best for you and what you enjoy. But the Ambika is the only one you played today that I heard what I know as “Bob’s sound.” I hope you felt good playing it.
But this could be a time for you to go a completely different direction from what you have always done. I will listen and support you regardless! Thanks for being great!
I wasn't expecting this result, but I'm listening to you in a professional studio/ Audiophile system with $60K studio monitors, and you sounded most amazing on the D'Addario Jazz DM9 mouthpiece. Fat and creamy with tons of power, DeLuxe.
I also liked you on the GS Slant SP 9 #2. Finally, your power, delivery and cut with the Lakshmi 9* was amazing.
I have the sonic advantage of saying that those three would serve you well in a live setting, and the others would not unless you're only recording with them. The D'Addario DM9 was king though, coming through a professional system.
Hello Bob. My favourites of the "mouthpiece circus" were how you sounded on the Ambika, the Lakshmi 9* and the 10M fan pentagon "Cabernet". Definitely don't throw away the last Vincent Toner piece. Bossa nova wise, I love playing Chega de Saudade, Manha de Carvnaval and Cherry Blossom Pink Apple Blossom White far more than Girl From Ipanema. Happy experimenting!
Man you sound really good on all of these. To me, the Ambika sounds the most like your sound. This was a really great trip. Im excited to see you do the next batch.
I like the Ambika too. It's my favorite to play and is perfect in an acoustic setting! But just a warning. If you need to cut through that is not a good choice. I have both Theo's Ambika 7 and Gaia 7 and need Gaia at least for my amplified band rehearsals (even with monitoring). The Ambika is a lot of low mids that don't translate as well in live amplified settings, especially in boomy rooms. I found it hard to hear myself without more severe EQ on my monitor even in a conditioned rehearsal space. Your mileage may vary of course and my ears *are* getting older :). With Bob playing in bands like Snarky I'm sure he'd have very nice amplification and monitoring so maybe it doesn't matter for him, but I suspect he needs to try his final choices in his various band settings too. It's so cool he can try so many! To me it's more about how good they feel to play and Theo's pieces have always felt good for me personally. I'm settling on the Gaia these days in my band and Ambika in more acoustic settings.
You played well, Bob! Greetings from a fan in China. The tones produced by these mouthpieces are great! I've also played with most of the mouthpieces you have here. The feeling I get is that Otto is truly unique... even though many brands have tried to imitate, Otto's own sound is incredibly hard to replicate. Perhaps it's due to the special characteristics of the materials. Especially the warm texture in the mid-to-low frequencies, particularly noticeable during recordings. No matter when, I will always choose Otto Link. While it may not possess the glamorous, trendy sound of some of the current fashionable brands, it holds a unique character within.
Hey Bob , listening through your mouthpieces , the one that jumped out at me was the Theo Wanne Slant Signature 9 .
I loved the sound , it has an edge about it , great downstairs and fantastic upstairs…
Martin
The D’addario is my first choice, followed by the Vincent Toner model. Sounding fabulous as always 💯👌💯
Thanks Bob! Hard to say! Will listen again later and throw out a name of the piece I enjoyed tho most.
Man, what a workout with all those choices!!! Hang in there.. 🙂
The Rorschach was pretty cool honestly. It shimmered a bit more than the others I think.
Writing this as of getting into the Theo Wanne pieces. I thought it was interesting how you started deviating more and more with the SP models and the “120” 10MFan. Not sure if that was feeling more comfy with those particular mouthpieces at that point of the tryouts.
Thanks for doing this Bob! This inspired me to try out some new pieces since the last shop about 8 years ago, and I am blown away by how good those D'Addarios are for the price.
Otto link Tone Edge for the win. Warm, expressive, and full.
Thanks Bob for the comparison and sharing your mouthpiece replacement journey. Your sound identity is pretty much there throughout every piece you tried, though for me I think the most similar to your old "sound" came from the Otto link (no surprise), Daddario select jazz and Theo wanna Ambika. I found you also sounded great on the getasax, 10mfan and Theo wanna slant sig although felt these were shifting you in a slightly different direction to your traditional sound, though still great in their own right. As for other mouthpieces to try, the ones that immediately come to mind are the Theo wanna Gaia, 10mfan classic & celebration, jodyjazz custom dark, and drake son of slant. You also have syos who would make you a custom design, although models including max ionata, tivon pennicott, and Lorenzo forerro come to mind, though I do find they lack the complexity of sound compared with something like an Otto link. While I couldn't imagine having to transition such a fundamental part of your setup you've had for so long, I'm sure you will come out of it with something as good as (or better) than what you had before. Good luck!
Vincent Toner he has a professional and very kind attitude . I think he would be amazed to get a feedback from you Bob and eventually work with you on a custom piece.
For all the other viewers i suggest them to contact him as well . Also Bob you sound great with any piece thanks to your personal sound and approach
SO, more important is what you feel with the diffent mpc, for me the Getasax and D'addario sound the best but I think the players feel of it makes up for a great mpc for the player
You are a good Player, you can play all of these. Greetings from Romania!
Hi Bob, enjoyed watching you put these MPs thru the paces. But first, I must say, your boy is growing up so fast!! Wow. (And glad he’s feeling better!) Anyway, as we all know, the mp is all about how it feels, but my semi amateur ear thinks you sound most solid on one of the Theo Wannes. When you played the first one, I perked up. It definitely sounded different in a good way. It’s an education watching and listening to this. Glad you are sharing it. I wish you well in completing the search and making a decision. Hopefully, I will see you in the Studio soon.
For Arnold’s piece, the material is called “Ultem” or something similar but it’d also depend on the style of mouthpiece it is too he makes a handful of variants.
great insight :)
The special facings by Brian, the Cabernet 120 and the Ambika sound the most like you to me!!
You sounded amazing on all of them. Let me say that your set up is super hard? 9 tip opening with 3'5 reeds? Wow!
Bob, would love to hear what you think of each piece. On that note, you sound great on all of them :)
Great vid, but as a top pro you would make a Rico Graftonite sound amazing. I have a GS Reso 7* for my 1959 MkVI but it is not bright enough for me. I was thinking about the GS Slant (but was impressed with the Theo Wanne slant sig). However, to my ears the most free blowing (but not the most refined) over the range of the horn was the cheapest mpc you tested, so I might end up getting the D’Addario instead. It will certainly save me quite a bit of money.
Your son always seems to strategically show up in your videos👍🏾🎵🎶🎷
Otto Link best to my ears. All the others sounded fine I just felt you were more at ease on the Link and therefore it sounded better. tone intonation etc.
Have you ever tried a Meyer on tenor?
I now use Meyer on tenor Hard rubber 9M with Select Jazz 4S, and 5M with Select Jazz 4H or 5 Vandoren Traditional.
I'd be curious to hear your opinion.
Thanks for your demos. Always very informative and appreciated.
That was enjoyable. Takeaways are a) same player same sound (bloody great in this case), b) the metal was an outlier in sound... bit of classic stm link / coltrane vibe, c) reed clearly a factor with soft nice for the ballard, d) the D'Addario JS is probably a good option in terms of having access to a replacement. Ted Klum are super. Def recommend trying.
OK for what it’s worth. My favorite for you was definitely the Ambika. You seem to be more free with it. Of course one of the most important things about a mouthpiece is the ability to do what you want. Hopefully the Ambika does that for you. But your tone on it also seemed to have more sweetness Than all the others. It was close.
Hard Rubber changes over time. You mentioned your rails are uneven and the table is probably warped. There is John Reilly, not far from us in Lake Forest, you could sit there with him as he works on it and will come back to life. All the mouthpieces you played sounded really good, it just comes down to how it feels to you and reed compatibility and does it meet your needs for response, low register popping and the response of the alltisimo . Good luck, I don't envy you AT ALL!!! Been there, done that.... don't want the T-shirt!!!!
Sounding incredible as always! I now have 16 choruses of Chi-Chi to transcribe...
Not to get too nerdy, but I think that amber looking one is made out of a plastic called Ultem.
Bob’s got one hell of an airstream. That’s his “secret”😂
I also like the resistance in the top to come from the mouthpiece and not the reed. That being said, SYOS made me a custom mouthpiece, which on the 4th try Sylvie got it right And the whole thing was about the resistance in the top. You might consider it.
Simply amazing and Wonderful all the way
I think the 10M fan 9* 120mm inspired you but it is only a guess Thanks a million for inspiring us all
the theo wanne slants, and ambika were by far the clearest and deepest sounding with your style of playing, too bad I hit my gear quota for the year hah
To me GS Slant 9 SP3 was a clear winner:))
and SP5 even V2 being close.
Sell it! Sell it I say! Your son is a hoot! Also, I like the Link and the one sent from Vincent.
Sell it. Sell it, I say! - sooo cute 😊 (keep it though...)
Like others said, the Ambika had overall “Bob” vibes. Curious to see what round two brings!
For me, he sounds great on all of them, but if I were to close my eyes, the one that sounds the most like “Bob” is the GS Slant 9 SP2. The Ambika is a close 2nd but to me, the SP2 is the closest to his OG sound
I agree with others that the Ambika sounds best (and you sound unbelievably killing on the metal Ohls piece too...) - dark and punchy with a slight gruffness always present in your sound. I am wondering if you would like an old Brilhart (maybe a 6 or 6 star) with a rollover baffle...have a feeling that would suit your sound well :)
Hi Bob, thx for the videos. Have you made a decision yet? Or you're continue testing other brands. How about the Jody jazz? I play one and it sounds awesome. And last question ,why are you playing such a high tip opening ?
Your most significant change was choosing the Jazz Select unfiled reed. All the mouthpieces would feel and play differently with a Jazz Select filed reed. This simple switch may elicit a different set of favorite mouthpieces and would be an interesting video to compare the sound of the darker mouthpieces with a filed reed to the brighter mouthpieces with an unfiled reed. While some of the mouthpieces were more like your old mouthpiece and seemed more intuitive for you to play, all of them had their merits. Finding the “right one” is a different matter, though. Through vocal coaching, I learned to conceptualize my voice as coming out through my forehead and not my throat. My favorite mouthpiece is the one that feels like I’m singing and not blowing air into a saxophone while moving my fingers. Thanks for taking us on your “singer” mouthpiece journey.
I did note a clarity in the tone with the Theo Wanne Lakshimi.
Wondered if you'd tried any Jody Jazz or Boston Sax Shop mounthpieces?
Oh Goddamnit, just pick one!! 😀
Too many mouthpieces kills the choice. Except for this "out of space" shaped one, they all sound Bob Reynolds to me ;-) You seems particularly confi on the TW ones, though.
Thanks for pointing me here! Speaking JUST from esthetics (the least useful POV), all of those white mouthpieces looked like they were made out of white chocolate. The resin one is *gorgeous*!
Dang, thought the Theo Wanne Slant Signature 9* was it until the high end didn't pop. Lovely tone, low subtones were amazing... then weak up top.
Oh man, I just joined the legions of Ambika lovers! "Darkest tone." Ok, I came up playing classical on a Ronald Caravan mouthpiece (bari and alto) and those are the Vanta-Black of dark mouthpieces. LOL! Ambika isn't even *close* in terms of darkness (like a conservatively gray-painted Lamborghini Countach!) But it was ridiculously lovely!
Oooh, I liked that custom one at the end... but it breaks my #1 rule of gear: nothing irreplaceable (which also makes me feel better about not having a Mk VI for any of my horns, but makes me worried about my 1927 Conn bari and mid-50s Martin Committee II tenor. But my BetterSax alto can be replaced in days from Sweetwater, playable out of the box!) :D
Hi Bob. Saw you last night at the Orpheum. Your new mouthpiece, whatever it is, sounds great! Even better than when you last played the Orpheum (2019??)
Could really catch the higher overtones in the sound. Just wanted to let you know.
Great show!! New drummer did a fantastic job filling those big shoes.
Corey Walkin out out like a boss for the encore!
Thanks, Kris! Actually I was struggling a bit because I couldn't seem to find the right reed and ended up with one that, in the end, I found to be too soft to push up high the way I'm accustomed to, but overall, the combo had a good balance. (was a Link 9 w 3M Jazz Select Filed btw)
@@bobreynolds wow! Surprising. I normally catch those nuances. I almost brought my HH Jody Jazz to have you sign as a joke. I thought that would have been funny. My humor is a bit off, I confess.
I also would have liked to hit the Tater on Friday to see your set but, two trips to LA in one weekend is more than this old man can muster.
Out of curiosity, have you tried the BSS reeds? I know they’re actually Rigottis but I must confess that I’ve been enjoying them in my playing.
Also, I really dug the lighting effects. It was super cool for non-musician audience members (do you even have any?) to be able to use the visual clues to key in on the soloing players. A really nice and effective touch.
Personally i dig the Theo slant sig 9's the most - but the Ambika stood out as (others have pointed out) the most Bob-sounding of them all - tho a tad brighter
A lot of the MP's tended to play a little bright. I went back and forth to compare with the first Otto Link you played. I thought the Otto Link had the best core to the sound that I associate with your original sound. The next closest I think would be the Ambika.
'It's a journey...'
Through thousands of dollars worth of mouthpieces,
mouthpiece hell might be the part where you go in circles:)
I like the GS Reso, the 10M Fan - Cabernet 9*, and the Theo Wanne Lakshmi 9 among others.
Theo Wanne Slant Signature was my F U mouthpiece to the professor that claimed my issues were of my own fault. I had been struggling with keeping consistent tone control and volume up and down my horn on an Otto Link STM 6. I always felt stuffed up and like the mouthpiece wouldn't take my air, so one day I showed up to rehearsal with it playing easier than ever with a heavy thicker tone and he instantly was snarky and said it sounded too bright. I've never been happier with my tone and it's the piece that completed my setup. I no longer have a gear craving(at least on tenor) and it's entirely cause I bought a 7* tip opening piece and found my comfort. Whether or not the brand mattered, the bigger tip experience was on the Slant Sig and I'm very happy with how insanely consistent I've been with it ever since. I can play with total control and in tune better than ever. Makes me wanna share my playing, and I did and you liked one of my posts on Instagram playing a portion of your solo on Days of Wine and Roses.
The lesson here kids is that if your professor says to play on a size 6 Otto Link STM, don't be afraid to try a bigger(or smaller for some people) tip opening. Whatever gets you closer to your comfort and consistency needed to sound the way you want to sound. And yes having the right tip opening fixes most reed problems. I used to go through a box and find one or two free blowing reeds. Now the entire box is usually perfectly fine since the tip opening freed up my air.
I liked the first Lakshmi and the Ohls. Regarding the latter, given that you don't play a metal mouthpiece, perhaps it sounding so good might mean that with more experience it might be just what you want.
You sound great on al of them. A nice problem to have. Varying brightnesses but overall they all sound like well-made mouthpieces. Chose the one that feels best to you 😏
Have you ever tried a Jody Jazz DV NY ?
Hey Bob, just a few minutes into this video when the thought occurred to me, what are you going to do with your old and worn out mpc? Just sticking into a plastic drawer doesn't seem right. Anyway I'll keep watching this video.
Always loved Bob's playing -and a big fan of his band and music.. I'm never been a big fan of low-no baffle hard rubber mouthpieces as I felt they tend to play dark.. also feel they lack a lot of core dynamics and most tend to sound stuffy.. .Personally I prefer medium to high baffles--Metal-Granadilla Wood-3D .. - But Bob no matter what he plays or will play will always sound great. Maybe some day will honor me by play testing my works. G Sugal
my vote for the jazz select and any of the TW pieces. The Rohrshach sounded surprisingly good if you want a different sound. To me it sounded “harder” like a good metal link.
I was surprised by it too. It looks like a Guardala, but sounds Link(ish).
The home made piece from England sounded nice to my ear. But there were many pieces that I liked very much. How to pick one? I couldn’t.
Pls try Joady Jazz Giant.
To me personally the Lakshmi 9* was the "Bobbest" of them all (Ambika was nice but did lack a bit of a "punch" I normally hear in your sound). Would really like you to try some Jody Jazz mouthpieces too though, just in case. Cheers
After just having watched the entire video, and listening carefully, I was extremely surprised to discover that my favourite was the metal Rorschach. To me it kept all of the Bob Reynolds inflection while even accentuating parts of his tone, and it gave him the most full lower register without the seeming resistance, while still providing a beautiful subtone. He sounded phenomenal on them all!
What is the watch you're wearing in this video? It's a beautiful piece!
That appears to be a Rolex Submariner.
The Avatar stood out to me. Very Dewey Redman. Not your usual concept though. Btw to you play straigh ahead jazz standards at your gig or if not can you share what you play and what its like?
for me the Ambika was so beautiful
As you played through the mouthpieces the only thing I noticed was the power of the younger brands. But Hell Bob you would sound good playing a paper bag😂
The get a sax pieces sounds great, but to my ears they sound brighter. Are they plastic?
D’Addario is amazing for the price!
Loved the Theo Wanne mps, just have an edge, though perhaps not everyone's cuppa, I do think Royal reeds sound stuffy IMHO.
Sounds great Bob, but I think the Wanne Slant 9 sounded the most comfortable for you and then the D'Addario DM9, but you have to choose not me. LOL cheers!
@Bob - Smile and laugh at 49:24 because that one was just fun and easy? It was my favorite personally, honorable mention to the Lakshmi and D'addario.
All the mouthpieces sound like you are the one playing them. Which one do you like? All of that was cool, but not as cool as hearing you talk with your child. Hearing the warmth in your tone with him is wonderful
No matter how this is going to end - I'm still really sad I never got to listen to Bob live with his original mouthpiece.
This is like, history in the making. It's like when you buy a property and you get to see the house you're gonna love living in being built.
Couple of things stood out to me:
The "new" Link 9 Tim got you with the daddario jazz select reeds I really liked.
I really liked the Lakshmi piece from Theo Wanne, along with the 9* 10MFan, and also the even facing GS Slant.
The DJS mouthpiece is really too bright, I have it in an 8 tip opening and it's pretty loud.
You sound great in lots of contexts! But man, 9* with a 3 or 4 reed? If you have vids on breath control or embouchure I'd like to see them.
good point. As I have aged I've found that stepping down to 2.5 or 3 on wider pieces is more appropriate for me, but I'm not a pro either. I have a 9* Durga metal paint blaster that I can use with 2.5 reeds out of the box, but a 4? I'd be sanding for a while.
I would also vote for the Ambika.
All the Theo's FTW
Should have tried my Ted klum and matt marantz, bob!
What Standard is Bob playing on 43:40?
Ambika sounds great
This video release is bigger than Titanic II will be!
Completely off topic. But whats the name of the song Bob is playing jn his testing. Mainly the ballad. Btw...the last mouthpiece was my favorite. Thnx!
I think I played Charlie Parker’s “Chi Chi”, but in the key of concert, E, followed by the ballad, “Misty”, and its traditional key of the flat, I think.