I work on a citizen machine and our management refuses to buy ground bar. That means laying out drawn bars and measuring them every 12" or so along and never being able to tighten up the guidebush as required. Then he gets angry at the machine manufacturer because I constantly struggle with concentricity. I thought I was missing something or doing something wrong. This video just reinforces that If you dont use the correct material, tools and programming techniques. You are never going to produce those perfect parts.
I'm a home machinist and a programmer by trade.. but this is a perfect example of management interfering with the staff they pay to know how to do things right. It's one of the most frustrating factors I've ever had to deal with.
I work on Swiss lathes, my company almost always has ground material unless the buyer wants to buy their own material and send it to us. However, a job that I had before I was briefly operating citizens and they told me that “they don’t need ground material for citizens”. So, it ran like shit. I told them time and time again that the parts are coming out awful due to high/low spots in the material and they did nothing about it. The guide is the heart of the Swiss, if it’s not set right nothing will come out right. Doesn’t matter how great your set up is.
I've worked on citizen sliding heads many times, for the guide bush principle, extend the bar up to the sub spindle and average it out when adjusting the guide bush. At most a run out of 0.005 microns. If you have a good mm to machine off the O/D that's fine.
Makes me happy to see the machines I work on being represented. Currently running a citizen m32 which Is an absolute beast of a machine. Swiss lathes are amazing machines
Hi John. I’ve only just discovered your TH-cam videos, the first one I watched was your visit to Tornos in Moutier. I’ve worked with Tornos sliding head lathes for over 30 years. Anyway I have actually binge watched your TH-cam videos over the Christmas holidays and I just thought I’d comment on your experience with the Tornos Swiss. I still use Tornos machines (the company I work for have just bought 6 Nano’s) but I mainly work on Star and Citizen CNCs nowadays. Anyway here’s my comment, the cut off (parting off) tool is just that, a cut off tool, so I never add or subtract anything to the Z axis in the offsets, I keep it at zero. That’s how I’ve always been taught (whether it was by Tornos, Star or Citizen). Instead I use the first turning tool as my reference (datum point) and face off the front off the front of the component as my first operation on every job. The other comment I will make is that after watching your video of your setup for the component for your Saga pen, when it comes to using the cross power tools, I would recommend using a variable in your program for the Z axis. Then if the position is out you only need to change the variable and it will apply to every tool, rather than changing the Z axis position for every tool. For example, in the program, for each cross power tool you could put Z#120, and before the first cross power operation you put #120=-8.0 (sorry, I work in metric) then if you need to make an adjustment you only need to change the value of #120 and it would apply to all of the tools. I know your experience of Swiss type automatic lathes is fairly recent, and maybe you’ve learnt these things since the videos I’ve watched, I just thought this would help. Love the new building, and the Kern is fascinating to watch. All the best for the future.
I am a nak runner forever. Love Fanuc. I'm a true lathe guy. More of an art. Ran 5x. Run live milling. I start training on a Citizen-Cincom on Tuesday. I am 46. Been machining for 28.
The shop I work at is getting its first cnc lathe next week, a mazak, I’m not sure exactly what model but we’re excited. We already have work orders coming in for it.
if you ever get those "I love lathes" t-shirt made, I need one too! my first real machine was a cnc lathe and I always find myself. hovering back to lathe work.
Swiss lathes can run a lot longer than 48 hours without interruptions. With the right setup and program. We've run parts for weeks without stopping (other than for changing inserts after every 3 or 4 days). We have a lot of large quantity orders. So every job we set up runs for at least 3 days continuously.
Nice machines. I worked as a mechanic at an aerospace fastener firm. We had Davenport multi spindle automatics and EuroTurn Multi spindle autos with CNC controlled cross slide as well as all the cams giving the other cross slides and tool spindle motions. Those Euro turn can cost above $1 million apiece. Great high volume machines. Set up operators make good money. They had some Swiss style gang tooling on a slide machines.
I run an AS-200 twin spindle, an she is a champ! Dream machine. I also run an NLX, which is nice, but huge. Swiss machining is another area I would love to learn.
There used to be a saying, “all turners are failed millers”. On early CNC lathes you only had 2 axis. With the advent of driven tooling, additional spindles and axis, Swiss type sliding head lathes can accommodate 40 tools. As a guy from Citizen Machinery told me once, millers tend be used to more axis and take to Swiss type lathes better than those only used to turning with 2. Once you get your head around these multi axis machines they can be really good and productive.
The important thing is to not let yourself be intimidated by these more complex machines. Just keep in mind that no matter what machine you're working on you are still only doing 1 of 2 things. You are either holding the stock stationary while you spin a cutting tool to remove material from it OR you are holding the cutting tool stationary while you spin the stock to remove material from it. People have been doing that for a very long time. There are obviously a few exceptions to this rule, like broaching, but I think I've made my point.
I love the lathe operator. "Yea we just make parts and junk them to warm it up". Owner "you dont do a spindle warm up you just make parts?" Operator "yup, fuck your costs, ha ha ha"
High production shops are like that. At my work the programmers call it a crutch for machinist. I run in warm up anyway because it sucks trying to chase the movement during warm up when I have so many other duties I have to tend to while working.
Yes you're absolutely right there is a lot of round parts not only in the machine shop but in the all world .I'm a mazak cnc lathe and actually I'm working on a mazak integrex I 200 with the smooth control.thanks for your videos
Be cautious with the Swiss machine's air scrubber. A fire in the oily exhaust pipe is possible. We know that from experience. Pierre seems to be extremely knowledgeable about the Tornos. They're great machines.
How is it not standard practice to run these things in pure nitrogen or CO₂? Fine oil mist plus hot rotating sparky metals in air is just a recipe for disaster.
Loving every upload, wish you could do more than 1 per month. When you were vlogging back in 2020, it was awesome with a new video every week or every other day! 😉
Nice looking shop, great machines, good insights into costs involved too, not many people realize how much $$ is involved. Let us know when you get the "I ❤ Lathes" shirts made!
Loving a lathe is normal - those who don't are simply unfortunate in not knowing. Shop looks very clean - should be proud. Swiss machines always requires pre-treating the stock. Titanium fires are like magnesium fires very tough to put out - usually special agents are required .
Lathes are also a lot more challenging to set up and operate than mill. It seems another of people look at lathe guys as the guys that couldn't make it on the mills, but they're actually so much more involved.
I dont know about that. fixturing on 5 axis milling parts gets crazy some times. I make prototypes on a 5 axis mill and I think most lathes except live tooling and swiss seem boring.
@@TritonTv69420 I ran cnc lathes for over 10 years and have been running a 5 axis mill for the last 4 years. I do everything from complex weldments to molds that require 5 axis simultaneous finishing. I will say that running 5 axis is more rewarding but it also alot easier. I still run a dual turret, dual spindle lathe at our shop but I always dread doing it because it so much more involved and so much more can go wrong.
Get an adaptive guide bush then you don't need to buy ground bar. JBS is one make. Or most sliding head machines have options to run guide bushless now too.
@28:50 uhm yeh you can run a swiss without a bar feeder. reduce bar length and put it in by hand. works too. I do that all the time for demo swiss machines
15:00 that's why you always run a warm up program. Especially after the weekend. I guess when your parts are so small they cost next to nothing to scrap it's ok. But once you become a ISO certified company every part needs to be documented. So those first 1-5, or first 50 parts your throwing away waiting for the machine to warm up has to documented. Which doesn't look good even if it's easy to explain.
Have you ever seen a Eurotech? Twin spindle/twin turret lathe like the Nak, but allows simultaneous machining, and superimposed machining. They claim to be faster than Swiss
How many per bar depends on length of bar. A.O.L. off part plus the thickness of part of tool. If part off tool is .125 Over all length of part is .375 And bar length is 4 feet. You'll get about 93 part per bar
after using JBS guides for two years and having countless application engineers it was the biggest waste of money i ever spent (mostly cutting High Speed Steel) im going back to the old type guide. the cylindricity just wasnt good enough with the JBS.
@@MillTurn4Life That is really interesting to hear. I don’t think we have had any issues like that. We mainly machine 316 stainless, PEEK , brass and aluminium. The machine we us it on is a 32mm Star, which may also be a factor. The smallest bar stock we put through the machine is 10mm diameter. What kind of sizes are you machining. Personally I can’t imagine changing back.
@@feltonissimo lol im machining 10mm to 32 on a star SR32 and a smaller sr20 on the sr20 we go down to 6mm. It's usually the smaller stuff I have issues on maybe it's something to do with the speed and weight of the bar
@@MillTurn4Life What a coincidence :) about the Star. It could well be the fact that they are smaller and harder material parts. I suppose that makes sense.
@@feltonissimo possibly. I'm going to try some alternative softer metals because I really do like the idea of the JBS it is very quick and easy to set up.
I spent my life on screw machines, for a long time considered lathes that made parts faster than lathes. You love lathes? Me too. The sad thing is, as I age out of the busness, I am seeing machining being gradually replaced by 3D printing. Now mainly plastics, but I expect them to take over metal working some day.
Get a 20 MM machine it should cover a wide range of your part for your knives and pens. I have to assume your bar loader pusher will only take a bar loader collet smaller then 13 MM but the channels will take 13 MM. The word is it is better to go larger diameter on bar loader then the lathe. The greatest advantage of Swiss Lathes is not only the high precision parts you can make but also cycle time reduction by the use of simultaneous machining process. At my place of work we can make parts within 30 microinches in roundness and as low as 5 microinch finish.
Bro Mazak just announced they will be making a granite base swiss with a 2inch diameter max. Plus it will be a traditional smooth control which is either G&M code or mazatrol conversional. They also partnered with mastercam so you can get special mastercam features on the control and special mazak features on Mastercam
I have an older Citizen Cincom F-16 Swiss. I have it down for full maintenance/cleaning and it's NASTY ! It's been ran with gun-drill oil the entire 30 years of service and I'm getting it ready for the next 30 years. These lathes are amazing what they can do, even @ 30+ years old. The oil mist that hangs in the shop is a big issue with the older ones like mine. It's in a new shop and I need to keep it "cleaner" so a mist extractor and drip tray are in the future, IF I stay with oil.
@@littlejackalo5326 , this machine makes screws, small shafts, bits and bobs. No weapon parts out of it,... yet.. Good news is, I'm switching to SemiSynth cutting fluid that is NON flammable & water soluble ! Best part, it's the same stuff I use in my Haas VF-1. Maybe some day I'll actually post some videos of what I "do". Problem is, no time to shoot and edit.
@@sereezyyy7068 i am NO expert at all with this thing havimg never been trained on it and learning by making MANY mistakes. Not sure i can really offer any help, nor do i want to share my # on any social media.
@@APSXLLCTH-camChannel Almost... With injection molding you can only make slightly tapered holes, that loo cylindrical. But his bearing-ball-separator has these barrel-shaped holes to keep the balls captive. So if you would injection mold it, then you'd still need to put the parts into a milling machine, position it very precisely, and take that lollypop-mill to cut it.
@@sasjadevries In the same way the balls can be popped in, you could have lollypop mould cores that would be popped out. That said this is a premium product so machining makes more sense.
@@littlestworkshop In practice it doesn't work that way. Firstly it turned out that injection molds can't work properly without draft angles, even a 90° edge makes the thing fail. And then when you pop in a single ball into there, the plastic is unconstrained (it has room to deflect out and accomodate the ball), if it's inside a mold, then it's completely encapsulated by metal. In theory you could work around it by making lollypop pins that can slide out, such that you can first pop it out of the mold, and then remove the ball-pins one by one, to then put it back into the injection mould. But that's quite a lot of added complexity and labour.
super surprised with the cost if those lathes. I would say a pretty good choice for you would be a mill turn like an integrex or the willerman? you just got.
Nah its half as capable as a proper mill turn. Even a basic integrex has a 12k spindle and 40tool changer. They also have a b axis. He has a live tool lathe not a mill turn. They are not in the same league
If he has the full Fusion subscription then he is probably using Partmaker which is included with Fusion license. Partmaker is the most popular CAM for Swiss lathes.
Lathe porn, I love lathes too! Awesome video man, and congratulations on the growth. I member watching videos when all you had was the Tormach, what a difference with the machines you have now.
14:32 yeah but you cant pull it back anymore its now smaller than guide. basically one op machine profile and cut. why so many tools. well you can pull part back if lenght smaller than guide bushing but its not rigid anymore. allmost same as long part stick out xD
Why you don't make a convex shape mounting tool with hole patterns for the balls. Then it will be super easy to push the plastic piece. Just my mind wander 😉
I can’t tell the difference from a French with a good US English accent. You can feel it’s better than a French trying to speak English, the grammar is much better
@@human2761 why do I have a hard time believing that he's a Frenchman when John's shop is in Toronto? Not to say people don't immigrate, but the likelihood would be lower for a Frenchman moving from France to Toronto versus Montréal. @johngrimsmo care to chime in?
John sounds like you should have gone with a different machine, the Tornos is way to crazy hard to setup maybe you should have looked into a myano or something else.
would you save costs if you buy bolts than producing your own? Surely someone mass produces a bolt that is close or exactly the same to your custom bolt
I have more than 50 Swiss automatic lathes, including Tornos, Citizen, Miyano, Star, Tsugami, and many brands of automatic lathes, I hope we can have long-term business cooperation with you and look forward to your reply, thank you very much.🤝 Courage from China.
do you purchase material as centerless ground from a metal supplier, or do you need to send it to a shop after purchasing from a supplier? i wanted perfct OD brass for a job but my metal suppliers just blinked slowly. not much for swiss work in our area tho (hello form Alberta!) would save me buying oversize stock and turning!
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You were talking a lot about cost of the machines and I was wondering if you insure any of them and to what extent is insuring CNC machines even possible?
Here in the US the bank requires insurance on the equipment to cover them in case of loss. I would have to imagine it's the same up north. Banks will be banks. From a business standpoint property and casualty insurance is standard, part of overhead. Some policies will even include machinery breakdown coverage, which pays for repairs after a hefty deductible, but it can be worth it, especially with electronics.
Kinda surprised y’all don’t just have an automatic screw machine or two just for the screws y’all produce. Yeah setup takes an entire day, but if you produce enough volume to make it worth your while, then it frees up other machines for tasks that can only be done with CNC.
Swiss lathe is the modern automatic screw machine. Check out the Tornos tour after the 21 minute mark, they show the old manual machines. th-cam.com/video/feh_dfCzFbg/w-d-xo.html
@@littlejackalo5326 Nope. Very different types of machinery. An automatic screw machine is a very specialized type of lathe which takes a wire feed and puts out a part every second or so. Traditionally they’re all mechanical, though many now have CNC features. the Swiss machine I believe is just a regular CNC lathe, but designed for very small parts and a high level of precision.
Maybe I missed something but how does the subspindle on the Tornos grab such a thin part? Wouldn't it just squeeze out of the collet since it has almost no cross section?
From the little experience I have had with swiss, you have to set the collet pressure just right and since it's still attached to the full piece of stock the hand off is extremely accurate and repeatable before its parts the piece off.
What is the maximum size/dimensions (Length, dia, width, height) a Swiss CNC Machine can handle? Does it come in Vertical type? Can it handle for large parts or only micro, small and medium machines?
The largest common size is 32mm, part length depends on the machine. Some machines can do over 20" in length, although it's not common. They're only available in a horizontal version, and it can handle parts up to the size of the bar diameter it can take
@@vanguard6937 You could literally make a 12 foot long part on a Swiss machine. You can reposition and regrip the headstock to make any length of part you need. Assuming the parts geometry allows for it.
Do you ever run jobs for other companies to keep the doors open? Working as a machinist I know how much it costs to run those machines and not to be mean but I doubt you make a profit only selling knifes and pens that you also have to assemble. You should look into job shop work just having a Swiss lathe puts you in a different tier of shop
15:35 yeah. if part take 1 minute make and material cost THAT much and you sell PIECE 2 buck. then there time to warm up machine lol. it will fine. let be guess if not warm up part will be oversize bit bcoz it cut cool part and not warm part and it get shrinked after cooling. there is coolant LOL 300 part from bar john see 150 knife xD someone actually want mass produced knives. things was diff when they was 1 at time hand maded. still same cost? they should be so cheap when all is automatic lol. like from china
You can, you have to hand load them and run them without a pusher, usually not an issue because your close to channel size. Then unload and flip around for auto run.
Companies think cnc is everything. If you are cutting away more than 100% of your part you should be using a different process. Injection molding, for example. Especially since Delrin is often used for injection molded bearings. You will cut material costs by over 50%, increase speed by 10x, decrease labor to practically zero.
@@brandons9138 You can get very close to the same precision and if you need even better precision you can always do finish machining. However, the parts that HE is making specifically ARE OFTEN INJECTION MOLDED which is why I suggested it.
There isn't a single part in that knife that would lend itself to any type of PMM. That's still need to do post op machining to it, to get it to the tolerances they're using. And the tooling costs of MIM is pretty big.
I work on a citizen machine and our management refuses to buy ground bar. That means laying out drawn bars and measuring them every 12" or so along and never being able to tighten up the guidebush as required. Then he gets angry at the machine manufacturer because I constantly struggle with concentricity. I thought I was missing something or doing something wrong. This video just reinforces that If you dont use the correct material, tools and programming techniques. You are never going to produce those perfect parts.
I'm a home machinist and a programmer by trade.. but this is a perfect example of management interfering with the staff they pay to know how to do things right. It's one of the most frustrating factors I've ever had to deal with.
Try using an adaptive gidebushing or an alloy that provides more slip on the pads of the guide bushing.
I work on Swiss lathes, my company almost always has ground material unless the buyer wants to buy their own material and send it to us. However, a job that I had before I was briefly operating citizens and they told me that “they don’t need ground material for citizens”. So, it ran like shit. I told them time and time again that the parts are coming out awful due to high/low spots in the material and they did nothing about it. The guide is the heart of the Swiss, if it’s not set right nothing will come out right. Doesn’t matter how great your set up is.
I agree 100%
I've worked on citizen sliding heads many times, for the guide bush principle, extend the bar up to the sub spindle and average it out when adjusting the guide bush. At most a run out of 0.005 microns. If you have a good mm to machine off the O/D that's fine.
Makes me happy to see the machines I work on being represented. Currently running a citizen m32 which Is an absolute beast of a machine. Swiss lathes are amazing machines
I run a M432. The motorised B axis enables all sorts of milling and angled drilling.
I just realy like your authentic talks about everything including financing thanks for bying the great creator that you are. You are inspiring.
Hi John. I’ve only just discovered your TH-cam videos, the first one I watched was your visit to Tornos in Moutier. I’ve worked with Tornos sliding head lathes for over 30 years. Anyway I have actually binge watched your TH-cam videos over the Christmas holidays and I just thought I’d comment on your experience with the Tornos Swiss. I still use Tornos machines (the company I work for have just bought 6 Nano’s) but I mainly work on Star and Citizen CNCs nowadays. Anyway here’s my comment, the cut off (parting off) tool is just that, a cut off tool, so I never add or subtract anything to the Z axis in the offsets, I keep it at zero. That’s how I’ve always been taught (whether it was by Tornos, Star or Citizen). Instead I use the first turning tool as my reference (datum point) and face off the front off the front of the component as my first operation on every job. The other comment I will make is that after watching your video of your setup for the component for your Saga pen, when it comes to using the cross power tools, I would recommend using a variable in your program for the Z axis. Then if the position is out you only need to change the variable and it will apply to every tool, rather than changing the Z axis position for every tool.
For example, in the program, for each cross power tool you could put Z#120, and before the first cross power operation you put #120=-8.0 (sorry, I work in metric) then if you need to make an adjustment you only need to change the value of #120 and it would apply to all of the tools. I know your experience of Swiss type automatic lathes is fairly recent, and maybe you’ve learnt these things since the videos I’ve watched, I just thought this would help. Love the new building, and the Kern is fascinating to watch. All the best for the future.
I am a nak runner forever. Love Fanuc. I'm a true lathe guy. More of an art. Ran 5x. Run live milling. I start training on a Citizen-Cincom on Tuesday. I am 46. Been machining for 28.
Awesome for you man keep striving and improving. I started machining on a dmg mori lathe and now I work with citizen L20 swiss lathes.
The shop I work at is getting its first cnc lathe next week, a mazak, I’m not sure exactly what model but we’re excited. We already have work orders coming in for it.
if you ever get those "I love lathes" t-shirt made, I need one too! my first real machine was a cnc lathe and I always find myself. hovering back to lathe work.
I found this a really interesting insight into this aspect of machining, didn’t really know anything about the Swiss sliding head machines.
Swiss lathes can run a lot longer than 48 hours without interruptions. With the right setup and program.
We've run parts for weeks without stopping (other than for changing inserts after every 3 or 4 days).
We have a lot of large quantity orders. So every job we set up runs for at least 3 days continuously.
This is the content I love you for.
Awesome deep dive into the machine, would so love to see a video like this on the new one, thanks for your vids
Great info! I've worked on L20's for the last 5 years. Great and easy machines
Beau travail Pierre - Cette huile vous met vraiment dans le jus
In 1984 I started in cnc on a Nakamura TMC 4 it was 3 months old.
It's still making accurate parts to this day.
Nice machines. I worked as a mechanic at an aerospace fastener firm. We had Davenport multi spindle automatics and EuroTurn Multi spindle autos with CNC controlled cross slide as well as all the cams giving the other cross slides and tool spindle motions. Those Euro turn can cost above $1 million apiece. Great high volume machines. Set up operators make good money. They had some Swiss style gang tooling on a slide machines.
Currently work on a Citizen L20. Been on it for two years and wouldn't trade it for anything.
Same here. It's a fun machine and less dangerous than the 14 inch chuck lathe I used to cut 45 foot long steel pipes on.
@@westellmodel I haven't ever been around anything that big. I bet that's wild to see in person.
I run an AS-200 twin spindle, an she is a champ! Dream machine. I also run an NLX, which is nice, but huge.
Swiss machining is another area I would love to learn.
There used to be a saying, “all turners are failed millers”. On early CNC lathes you only had 2 axis.
With the advent of driven tooling, additional spindles and axis, Swiss type sliding head lathes can accommodate 40 tools.
As a guy from Citizen Machinery told me once, millers tend be used to more axis and take to Swiss type lathes better than those only used to turning with 2.
Once you get your head around these multi axis machines they can be really good and productive.
The important thing is to not let yourself be intimidated by these more complex machines. Just keep in mind that no matter what machine you're working on you are still only doing
1 of 2 things. You are either holding the stock stationary while you spin a cutting tool to remove material from it OR you are holding the cutting tool stationary while you spin the stock
to remove material from it. People have been doing that for a very long time. There are obviously a few exceptions to this rule, like broaching, but I think I've made my point.
Good to see you're progressing John. With our trumpets, we make over 2000 different lathe parts ;)
I love the lathe operator. "Yea we just make parts and junk them to warm it up". Owner "you dont do a spindle warm up you just make parts?" Operator "yup, fuck your costs, ha ha ha"
High production shops are like that. At my work the programmers call it a crutch for machinist. I run in warm up anyway because it sucks trying to chase the movement during warm up when I have so many other duties I have to tend to while working.
Yes you're absolutely right there is a lot of round parts not only in the machine shop but in the all world .I'm a mazak cnc lathe and actually I'm working on a mazak integrex I 200 with the smooth control.thanks for your videos
Be cautious with the Swiss machine's air scrubber. A fire in the oily exhaust pipe is possible. We know that from experience.
Pierre seems to be extremely knowledgeable about the Tornos. They're great machines.
How is it not standard practice to run these things in pure nitrogen or CO₂? Fine oil mist plus hot rotating sparky metals in air is just a recipe for disaster.
Loving every upload, wish you could do more than 1 per month. When you were vlogging back in 2020, it was awesome with a new video every week or every other day! 😉
Nice looking shop, great machines, good insights into costs involved too, not many people realize how much $$ is involved. Let us know when you get the "I ❤ Lathes" shirts made!
Loving a lathe is normal - those who don't are simply unfortunate in not knowing. Shop looks very clean - should be proud. Swiss machines always requires pre-treating the stock. Titanium fires are like magnesium fires very tough to put out - usually special agents are required .
Our machines have fire suppression devices on them that have fire detection. They starve the fire for oxygen.
Really interesting seeing folks making commodity parts for the first time. Bar prep's a pain haha I feel ya
Lathes are also a lot more challenging to set up and operate than mill. It seems another of people look at lathe guys as the guys that couldn't make it on the mills, but they're actually so much more involved.
Agreed.
I dont know about that. fixturing on 5 axis milling parts gets crazy some times. I make prototypes on a 5 axis mill and I think most lathes except live tooling and swiss seem boring.
@@TritonTv69420 I ran cnc lathes for over 10 years and have been running a 5 axis mill for the last 4 years. I do everything from complex weldments to molds that require 5 axis simultaneous finishing. I will say that running 5 axis is more rewarding but it also alot easier. I still run a dual turret, dual spindle lathe at our shop but I always dread doing it because it so much more involved and so much more can go wrong.
@@TritonTv69420 What is crazy about fixturing in a 5 axis mill?
Get an adaptive guide bush then you don't need to buy ground bar. JBS is one make. Or most sliding head machines have options to run guide bushless now too.
The Tsugami swiss that I run use IMECA or Minuateman barfeeders.
So awesome following you and your team , you’ve come so far from those garage days .
@28:50 uhm yeh you can run a swiss without a bar feeder.
reduce bar length and put it in by hand. works too. I do that all the time for demo swiss machines
man, I think I need a swiss lathe.... they are just too cool
15:00 that's why you always run a warm up program. Especially after the weekend. I guess when your parts are so small they cost next to nothing to scrap it's ok. But once you become a ISO certified company every part needs to be documented. So those first 1-5, or first 50 parts your throwing away waiting for the machine to warm up has to documented. Which doesn't look good even if it's easy to explain.
Have you ever seen a Eurotech? Twin spindle/twin turret lathe like the Nak, but allows simultaneous machining, and superimposed machining. They claim to be faster than Swiss
How many per bar depends on length of bar. A.O.L. off part plus the thickness of part of tool.
If part off tool is .125
Over all length of part is .375
And bar length is 4 feet.
You'll get about 93 part per bar
You should look at a JBS guide bush it will eliminate the need to grind your bars.
after using JBS guides for two years and having countless application engineers it was the biggest waste of money i ever spent (mostly cutting High Speed Steel) im going back to the old type guide. the cylindricity just wasnt good enough with the JBS.
@@MillTurn4Life That is really interesting to hear. I don’t think we have had any issues like that. We mainly machine 316 stainless, PEEK , brass and aluminium. The machine we us it on is a 32mm Star, which may also be a factor. The smallest bar stock we put through the machine is 10mm diameter. What kind of sizes are you machining. Personally I can’t imagine changing back.
@@feltonissimo lol im machining 10mm to 32 on a star SR32 and a smaller sr20 on the sr20 we go down to 6mm. It's usually the smaller stuff I have issues on maybe it's something to do with the speed and weight of the bar
@@MillTurn4Life What a coincidence :) about the Star. It could well be the fact that they are smaller and harder material parts. I suppose that makes sense.
@@feltonissimo possibly. I'm going to try some alternative softer metals because I really do like the idea of the JBS it is very quick and easy to set up.
John thanks for your videos, and by the way your English is owesome very clear and vary understandable 👍
I spent my life on screw machines, for a long time considered lathes that made parts faster than lathes. You love lathes? Me too. The sad thing is, as I age out of the busness, I am seeing machining being gradually replaced by 3D printing. Now mainly plastics, but I expect them to take over metal working some day.
This is an excellent and educational video, thank you!
Get a 20 MM machine it should cover a wide range of your part for your knives and pens. I have to assume your bar loader pusher will only take a bar loader collet smaller then 13 MM but the channels will take 13 MM. The word is it is better to go larger diameter on bar loader then the lathe. The greatest advantage of Swiss Lathes is not only the high precision parts you can make but also cycle time reduction by the use of simultaneous machining process. At my place of work we can make parts within 30 microinches in roundness and as low as 5 microinch finish.
Bro Mazak just announced they will be making a granite base swiss with a 2inch diameter max. Plus it will be a traditional smooth control which is either G&M code or mazatrol conversional. They also partnered with mastercam so you can get special mastercam features on the control and special mazak features on Mastercam
Do you have a link to this? I’d like to read up on this. I’m a big mazak guy but always thought a Swiss would be an awesome addition
I have an older Citizen Cincom F-16 Swiss. I have it down for full maintenance/cleaning and it's NASTY ! It's been ran with gun-drill oil the entire 30 years of service and I'm getting it ready for the next 30 years. These lathes are amazing what they can do, even @ 30+ years old. The oil mist that hangs in the shop is a big issue with the older ones like mine. It's in a new shop and I need to keep it "cleaner" so a mist extractor and drip tray are in the future, IF I stay with oil.
Hopefully your using the gun drills for what they were made for. LOL. If you are, hopefully you'll be using it to make barrels for another 30 years.
@@littlejackalo5326 , this machine makes screws, small shafts, bits and bobs. No weapon parts out of it,... yet..
Good news is, I'm switching to SemiSynth cutting fluid that is NON flammable & water soluble ! Best part, it's the same stuff I use in my Haas VF-1.
Maybe some day I'll actually post some videos of what I "do". Problem is, no time to shoot and edit.
we have the same machine I have.m a question can I call you
@@sereezyyy7068 i am NO expert at all with this thing havimg never been trained on it and learning by making MANY mistakes. Not sure i can really offer any help, nor do i want to share my # on any social media.
Almost every part, I don't know anyone that makes their own ball bearings
Ssssh! You'll put ideas in his head! ;-)
Can it be done with injection molding? APSX-PIM injection machine is a good option for Delrin parts.
@@APSXLLCTH-camChannel Almost... With injection molding you can only make slightly tapered holes, that loo cylindrical. But his bearing-ball-separator has these barrel-shaped holes to keep the balls captive. So if you would injection mold it, then you'd still need to put the parts into a milling machine, position it very precisely, and take that lollypop-mill to cut it.
@@sasjadevries In the same way the balls can be popped in, you could have lollypop mould cores that would be popped out. That said this is a premium product so machining makes more sense.
@@littlestworkshop In practice it doesn't work that way. Firstly it turned out that injection molds can't work properly without draft angles, even a 90° edge makes the thing fail.
And then when you pop in a single ball into there, the plastic is unconstrained (it has room to deflect out and accomodate the ball), if it's inside a mold, then it's completely encapsulated by metal.
In theory you could work around it by making lollypop pins that can slide out, such that you can first pop it out of the mold, and then remove the ball-pins one by one, to then put it back into the injection mould. But that's quite a lot of added complexity and labour.
Love Swiss lathe. Amazing 🎉
Do you know traub tnl 12 Swiss lathe ?
Great video, something very cathartic about watching these. I only have one question, why does it seem like they are wearing eye makeup?
Dudes french
Thanks for the tour of the machine now that you have had it awhile.
Useful overview/ intro, thanks👍👍
I love work I COULD WATCH IT being done all day:-))))))))
super surprised with the cost if those lathes. I would say a pretty good choice for you would be a mill turn like an integrex or the willerman? you just got.
His Nak is effectively a mill/turn. How do you think he's making those pocket clips and pen sliders.
Nah its half as capable as a proper mill turn. Even a basic integrex has a 12k spindle and 40tool changer. They also have a b axis.
He has a live tool lathe not a mill turn. They are not in the same league
I still remember the time when you milled screw studs on your Tormach
Excellent info thankyou
My first machine was a hass 5 axis thing was a old cu## but when it ran dam they were nice parts
That clip I would think a stamped part.
John have you thought about looking at the triple turret naks?
What are you using to program the Swiss? Hand written, MasterCam or Fusion?
If he has the full Fusion subscription then he is probably using Partmaker which is included with Fusion license. Partmaker is the most popular CAM for Swiss lathes.
Lathe porn, I love lathes too! Awesome video man, and congratulations on the growth. I member watching videos when all you had was the Tormach, what a difference with the machines you have now.
I like cnc lathes too
14:32 yeah but you cant pull it back anymore its now smaller than guide. basically one op machine profile and cut. why so many tools. well you can pull part back if lenght smaller than guide bushing but its not rigid anymore. allmost same as long part stick out xD
try using pig mats the suck up a ton more oil over paper towels.
Nice video! Could you comment on the small computers you have? What do you run there?
Tee shirt idea. A lathe turned my life around.
Why you don't make a convex shape mounting tool with hole patterns for the balls. Then it will be super easy to push the plastic piece. Just my mind wander 😉
I can tell Pierre is french and his mind still thinks in french but speaks english on the fly, a very exhausting task btw
If you make that shirt made, make sure you send John Saunders one.
Saunders wouldn't know what a lathe is
Curious about the critical diameters and delrin. Does it come consistent enough diameter that no prepping needs done?
Great video 👍 What about a star sliding head or speedo.
Love Pierre's thick quebec french accent!
I can’t tell the difference from a French with a good US English accent. You can feel it’s better than a French trying to speak English, the grammar is much better
Actually he's French french.
@@human2761 why do I have a hard time believing that he's a Frenchman when John's shop is in Toronto? Not to say people don't immigrate, but the likelihood would be lower for a Frenchman moving from France to Toronto versus Montréal. @johngrimsmo care to chime in?
Hey, if you are having so many parts and looking for outsourcing for Swiss type lathe, i can help with you that
John sounds like you should have gone with a different machine, the Tornos is way to crazy hard to setup maybe you should have looked into a myano or something else.
would you save costs if you buy bolts than producing your own? Surely someone mass produces a bolt that is close or exactly the same to your custom bolt
Will you buy your old Tormachs back une day?
Sub'd - It's amazing how much you have and how it's ALL for "just" (no offense intended)... A knife & pen, it's inspiring.
that's a lot of knifes and pens to pay for 3/4million dollar of lathes.....
I have more than 50 Swiss automatic lathes, including Tornos, Citizen, Miyano, Star, Tsugami, and many brands of automatic lathes, I hope we can have long-term business cooperation with you and look forward to your reply, thank you very much.🤝 Courage from China.
Hi, i was wondering how do you set drills to center on the sub spindle on Y-axis? Thanks for response.
do you purchase material as centerless ground from a metal supplier, or do you need to send it to a shop after purchasing from a supplier? i wanted perfct OD brass for a job but my metal suppliers just blinked slowly. not much for swiss work in our area tho (hello form Alberta!) would save me buying oversize stock and turning!
You were talking a lot about cost of the machines and I was wondering if you insure any of them and to what extent is insuring CNC machines even possible?
We insure ours, it's like $1500 a year per machine.
Fire, lightning.
Here in the US the bank requires insurance on the equipment to cover them in case of loss. I would have to imagine it's the same up north. Banks will be banks. From a business standpoint property and casualty insurance is standard, part of overhead. Some policies will even include machinery breakdown coverage, which pays for repairs after a hefty deductible, but it can be worth it, especially with electronics.
Can you make adapters for the gripper, for each different bar size?
I love lamp!
I mean lathes.... lol
But brick, do you really love them or are you just pointing at things in the room and saying you love them lol
"Trying to remember how it all works", 3:51, says it all...
Kinda surprised y’all don’t just have an automatic screw machine or two just for the screws y’all produce. Yeah setup takes an entire day, but if you produce enough volume to make it worth your while, then it frees up other machines for tasks that can only be done with CNC.
Swiss lathe is the modern automatic screw machine. Check out the Tornos tour after the 21 minute mark, they show the old manual machines.
th-cam.com/video/feh_dfCzFbg/w-d-xo.html
Isn't a Swiss and a screw machine the same thing?
@@littlejackalo5326 Nope. Very different types of machinery. An automatic screw machine is a very specialized type of lathe which takes a wire feed and puts out a part every second or so. Traditionally they’re all mechanical, though many now have CNC features. the Swiss machine I believe is just a regular CNC lathe, but designed for very small parts and a high level of precision.
Swiss doesn't aways make money parts but it doe make the parts that make the money
put me down for that t-shirt!!
Maybe I missed something but how does the subspindle on the Tornos grab such a thin part? Wouldn't it just squeeze out of the collet since it has almost no cross section?
From the little experience I have had with swiss, you have to set the collet pressure just right and since it's still attached to the full piece of stock the hand off is extremely accurate and repeatable before its parts the piece off.
See you lather...
John is the twin brother of Marcus (Alan Tudyk) (Maze runner: Scorch trial) 😂
What is the maximum size/dimensions (Length, dia, width, height) a Swiss CNC Machine can handle? Does it come in Vertical type? Can it handle for large parts or only micro, small and medium machines?
The largest common size is 32mm, part length depends on the machine. Some machines can do over 20" in length, although it's not common.
They're only available in a horizontal version, and it can handle parts up to the size of the bar diameter it can take
@@vanguard6937 You could literally make a 12 foot long part on a Swiss machine. You can reposition and regrip the headstock to make any length of part you need. Assuming the parts geometry allows for it.
Do you ever run jobs for other companies to keep the doors open? Working as a machinist I know how much it costs to run those machines and not to be mean but I doubt you make a profit only selling knifes and pens that you also have to assemble. You should look into job shop work just having a Swiss lathe puts you in a different tier of shop
He can't satiate demand for the knives. Knife are being run constantly. You severely under estimate the demand for his knives and pens.
Why and I watching this? I just spent 10+ hours on a swiss machine. I think I have a problem.
I can't think of a reason that oil is used in the Swiss. WHY do they insist on using oil. I couldn't deal with that mess.
15:35 yeah. if part take 1 minute make and material cost THAT much and you sell PIECE 2 buck. then there time to warm up machine lol. it will fine. let be guess if not warm up part will be oversize bit bcoz it cut cool part and not warm part and it get shrinked after cooling. there is coolant LOL 300 part from bar john see 150 knife xD someone actually want mass produced knives. things was diff when they was 1 at time hand maded. still same cost? they should be so cheap when all is automatic lol. like from china
Anybody notice how fast that blade was?
Nice, I could spit those parts out all day;)
good video
cool story bro
On which machine do you turn down the ends of the bars to fit the gripper?
This can't be done by the Swiss itself, right ?
Freehand belt sander
You can, you have to hand load them and run them without a pusher, usually not an issue because your close to channel size. Then unload and flip around for auto run.
Sir please guide me programming
Companies think cnc is everything. If you are cutting away more than 100% of your part you should be using a different process. Injection molding, for example. Especially since Delrin is often used for injection molded bearings. You will cut material costs by over 50%, increase speed by 10x, decrease labor to practically zero.
You'll never get the same level of precision.
@@brandons9138 You can get very close to the same precision and if you need even better precision you can always do finish machining. However, the parts that HE is making specifically ARE OFTEN INJECTION MOLDED which is why I suggested it.
Seems like if you went with MIM you’d be making much more money is much less time.
There isn't a single part in that knife that would lend itself to any type of PMM. That's still need to do post op machining to it, to get it to the tolerances they're using. And the tooling costs of MIM is pretty big.
Pierre : women want him, men want to be him.
Pierre sound french canadian a lot