My immediate thought no! not the probe!!? Even if you can afford to replace it, it takes time to get a new one in, stopping production in the mean time eesh
exactly my thought when i saw the first tool change :D .anyway i wouldnt test in with tools in holder aswel. for this shejt i have spare holders or half holders to calibrate my tool changing arm . but i have different style of tool magazine. and cat40 holders.
I do enjoy watching your problem solving method. I know its frustrating in the moment. But one of the most helpful things i find, is understanding other peoples methods of problem solving in their business. It might not be the way I do it, or would of thought of. But you never know down the road, where someone elses trick/technique can save your ass in a time critical situation. Great to see you posting videos again. Thanks for taking the time to share your passions with us.
They are totally right. I love watching you solve problems... not because I want to see you suffer, but because seeing how you think helps me think differently and I love it. Thank you and keep up the good work!
I love this, 2 minutes in you put the gopro in and I was watching it drop tools wondering if that tool changer was belt or gear driven. A minute later I see the a belt and you mention 15k hours and I was like I bet a belt stretched. I get the same thing on my 3d printers, they use 6-10mm wide fiber or cable reinforced belts and they need replaced every so often because they stretch so much over time. Nothing like the damage you had but I regularly have to do replacements to fix print quality. For a 3d printer than replacement is every 500-1000 hours. It shows the quality of the belts you are using considering you got to 15K hours. You could always make a video about how you are going to make sure this never happens again. That is something that is important for people who are getting into manufacturing and were a lot of companies are getting into trouble as there is a lot of turnover in the workforce right know which leads to lost tribal knowledge. Keeping a belt in stock and setting up a PM reminder to have it replaced every x number of hours is so much cheaper than the 6 day downtime. What if next time its 10 days or 15, how long before that cuts into shipments and affects sales and brand reputation. Maybe you should sit down with a kern rep and talk about other PM you should be doing. Another question you need to answer is do you train your people to fix it or do you schedule a tech to come in to fix it on a set schedule? Do you plan regular maintenance to clean the belt and regrease the bearings and take the downtime more often before you have an issue or do you stock a 5k piece that can be replaced quickly when in the future it might be something else causing the issue. What documentation on troubleshooting are you writing so in the future if the kern is dropping tools an op can reference a doc and know that they need to check belts? This is such a good representation of troubles that are plaguing manufactures all over Canada and the US. How you address this problem now, after it has been fixed is what can set you apart from so many other manufactures. Thank you for sharing.
the thing with the belt is not so much the tension, but the number of exposed teeth. it's a gear ratio thing. if the top linear actuator, and the bottom linear actuator, don't have the same number of exposed teeth, they won't track correctly from one extreme to the other. Should really take the top actuator apart and count the number of teeth and cut the lower belt to the same length, then tighten them both identically.
Seems like buying a replacement part is the way to go next time, but taking the old one out and rebuilding it after you get the machine running and then put it on a shelf for backup is probably the ultimate strat. Especially if you can't figure out how to keep the oil out of the belt. Oil tends to eat rubber belts. There are also polyurethane belts that are likely more resistant to oil than rubber.
I work on an Okuma with a secondary tool cabinet similar to this setup. In the control there is a tool matrix that tells the control when it's ok to put a tool into a pocket, which is a dummy system based off of it's last known configuration. This tool cabinet always puts a tool in the same pocket so it's easy to troubleshoot. One day I was testing different tool change and staging routines and I removed a tool before the machine did, it did not like that due to the logic built into the plc's. I had to reset plc switches and manually tell the machine to move the auxillary tool arm to a certain place and reset the tool matrix. I was on the phone with Okuma all day!! Always call people who have access to the parts and info. I would have never known how to go into the master user mode and which settings page to change the I/O values. I will never do that again!!!
Just a thought. You can buy a new assembly to quickly swap it and then rebuild the broken one when there is time and keep it as spare. Also add a note to check the belt when the machine reaches 30 000 hours.
Nice debugging process. My brain immediately started thinking of ways to detect a stretched belt. Maybe a strain gauge at the top that measures when the gantry is forced on an angle?
Nice video. Frustrations and all. You basically made it easy for the tech. Maybe you buy a new assembly for a spare maybe not, but at least now you know what to look for and possibly plan the maintenance for the swap out. Great problem solving. I like your shop videos that you make about shop dial in stuff. Thanks for sharing
Nice work repairing.. But this type of repairs can be noticed if you are making preventive maintenance….you should implement it and make some check list from mechanisms to check and machine cleaning…maybe it was first time that you clean that area. It was full of oil
@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 My machine 'shop is next to a delivery company that use Ford Transit vans. I like to go outside and have a brew a few times a day, and i often end up having a chat with their manager. He has left me in no doubt as to how bad those engines are 😂. We're in the UK, so they're all manual as well. I think he said 4 out of the fleet of 12 vans have had issues with 2nd gear as well. Not to mention all the other issues!
I've been trying out a lot of different tool changer designs in the past few weeks to figure out which one would fit my machine best... Now I can watch John do Kern stuff on his Kern and do my research on ATCs at the same time 😂 Thank you!
Interesting that it gets slow if kept on. I use to run a mitsubichi lu-620 that had some kind of weird issue so it had to stay on all the time (was an ongoing issue and was like pulling teeth trying to get it fixed, thats a rant for another day) that had a tnc530 panel. One day it was like it couldn't read ahead, every line of code it would hesitate, rebooting it fixed that. It only did it once to my knowledge but it also had a different known bug for that version (would give a fatal alarm error when adjusting an offset on occasion) so updating the software would likely kill 2 stones with 1 bird. Keep up the great work
The tool change lag sounds like a memory leak bug in the software. A reboot starts with a fresh empty memory pool. I've chased and fixed many of those types of bugs in my career.
That belt can be worn by a position that is much used, like for a tool position for an end mill that is frequently used, but that belt is worn, plain and simple. 😂 I change belts on our cnc’s (not a kern) after 10k hour. They are routers that are running almost 24/7 just cutting out an aluminium arm and some smaller mounts, but I have seen that the timing belts are worn at the position where it just drill and thread 30 ish holes around a 20cm hole on each arm we make. We buy our belts at powge and cloudray in china for our 4 routers. Been happy with them for the last 4-5 years. Pretty sure they have your belts with that pitch. But 500$ was not bad if you need it within a day or two. Anyway great channel.
I'm a little surprised that they don't use a "sealed" linear drive there or use one that's more oil/coolant resistant/compatible. Good work on the repair though!
I enjoy this content. 1 question tho, Why is the windows for the toolchanger cabinet tinted? wouldn't it make more sense to be able to see the tools better?
Machine I used to use had 5 tool holders per spindle. Sensor would get a little dirty and push down a little to far and eventually bust the bearings and bending it. It was a monthly thing and was annoying
Cartesian tool magazines are great for adding volume, and great at adding complexity, maintenance, and slowing down tool changes. From experience, I'd see if Gates PowerGrip has an equivalent for the next change. I'd bet your Willemin has all Gates with way way more than 12k hrs without issue
I'm wondering if you need to change the upper belt too because it's already worn but the new one isn't and they might continue to wear at different rates. But hopefully not.
We had a faulty sensor on a tool changer that thought the toolholder was empty - it wasnt. That is in my top 3 of noises at work I dont ever wanna hear again. The Mazak technician said it SHOULD be impossible for that to ever happen. They fixed it even though the machine was out of warranty. EDIT: You should honestly have put in some empty tool holders when testing if it dropped 😅
Looks like the belt has been degraded and worn/aged by all the drips of oil. If the belt is stressed more on one place (bending around the pully) due to proximity and gantry travel distance that might explae the uneven wear. Dirt particles in the oil also might play a role. Look at some cars where the timing belt is also in the same motor oil like anything else. Those belts wear out terribly without proper maintenance leading to engine damage.
Looks like standard HTD 3M 20mm wide belt to me? You can get for 25€/meter. Just get a roll of it for the next time. That being said, its a design flaw in the system, there is a version of this linear drive with a covered belt for "Rough envoironments with dust and oil" - so just pick the right part for the design Kern?^^
well i guess its time for john to upgrade to the new HD+ xD i mean insted of only 3 axis hydrodynamic its all 5 axis thats hydrodynamic well since you did have it shut down and changed the belt on the bottom you might as well had changed all the belt's just in case and nice to know that they are all the same age
words for the wise: Please, for the love of god, do not call the touchprobe if the toolchanger is dropping tools. If available, test with an EMPTY, less than new, toolholder.
Yikes, i dont know if i would have had the heart to test it with the probe after dropping the last tool.
My immediate thought no! not the probe!!? Even if you can afford to replace it, it takes time to get a new one in, stopping production in the mean time eesh
exactly my thought when i saw the first tool change :D .anyway i wouldnt test in with tools in holder aswel. for this shejt i have spare holders or half holders to calibrate my tool changing arm . but i have different style of tool magazine. and cat40 holders.
Yeah insane. He must have a lot of money to spare.
I do enjoy watching your problem solving method. I know its frustrating in the moment. But one of the most helpful things i find, is understanding other peoples methods of problem solving in their business. It might not be the way I do it, or would of thought of. But you never know down the road, where someone elses trick/technique can save your ass in a time critical situation.
Great to see you posting videos again. Thanks for taking the time to share your passions with us.
They are totally right. I love watching you solve problems... not because I want to see you suffer, but because seeing how you think helps me think differently and I love it. Thank you and keep up the good work!
It's only rocket surgery!
P.S. discuss adding drain holes to the back channel with Kern.
I love this, 2 minutes in you put the gopro in and I was watching it drop tools wondering if that tool changer was belt or gear driven. A minute later I see the a belt and you mention 15k hours and I was like I bet a belt stretched. I get the same thing on my 3d printers, they use 6-10mm wide fiber or cable reinforced belts and they need replaced every so often because they stretch so much over time. Nothing like the damage you had but I regularly have to do replacements to fix print quality. For a 3d printer than replacement is every 500-1000 hours. It shows the quality of the belts you are using considering you got to 15K hours. You could always make a video about how you are going to make sure this never happens again. That is something that is important for people who are getting into manufacturing and were a lot of companies are getting into trouble as there is a lot of turnover in the workforce right know which leads to lost tribal knowledge. Keeping a belt in stock and setting up a PM reminder to have it replaced every x number of hours is so much cheaper than the 6 day downtime. What if next time its 10 days or 15, how long before that cuts into shipments and affects sales and brand reputation. Maybe you should sit down with a kern rep and talk about other PM you should be doing. Another question you need to answer is do you train your people to fix it or do you schedule a tech to come in to fix it on a set schedule? Do you plan regular maintenance to clean the belt and regrease the bearings and take the downtime more often before you have an issue or do you stock a 5k piece that can be replaced quickly when in the future it might be something else causing the issue. What documentation on troubleshooting are you writing so in the future if the kern is dropping tools an op can reference a doc and know that they need to check belts? This is such a good representation of troubles that are plaguing manufactures all over Canada and the US. How you address this problem now, after it has been fixed is what can set you apart from so many other manufactures. Thank you for sharing.
the thing with the belt is not so much the tension, but the number of exposed teeth. it's a gear ratio thing. if the top linear actuator, and the bottom linear actuator, don't have the same number of exposed teeth, they won't track correctly from one extreme to the other. Should really take the top actuator apart and count the number of teeth and cut the lower belt to the same length, then tighten them both identically.
Seems like buying a replacement part is the way to go next time, but taking the old one out and rebuilding it after you get the machine running and then put it on a shelf for backup is probably the ultimate strat. Especially if you can't figure out how to keep the oil out of the belt. Oil tends to eat rubber belts.
There are also polyurethane belts that are likely more resistant to oil than rubber.
I work on an Okuma with a secondary tool cabinet similar to this setup. In the control there is a tool matrix that tells the control when it's ok to put a tool into a pocket, which is a dummy system based off of it's last known configuration. This tool cabinet always puts a tool in the same pocket so it's easy to troubleshoot. One day I was testing different tool change and staging routines and I removed a tool before the machine did, it did not like that due to the logic built into the plc's. I had to reset plc switches and manually tell the machine to move the auxillary tool arm to a certain place and reset the tool matrix. I was on the phone with Okuma all day!! Always call people who have access to the parts and info. I would have never known how to go into the master user mode and which settings page to change the I/O values. I will never do that again!!!
Just a thought. You can buy a new assembly to quickly swap it and then rebuild the broken one when there is time and keep it as spare. Also add a note to check the belt when the machine reaches 30 000 hours.
How about checking the belt at 25,000 hours to give a cushion?
@@royreynolds108 Maybe Kern has some general guides for regular components maintenance? Maybe John should check the manual of this machine.
@@royreynolds108 lets meet in the middle, 27,500 hours.
Nice debugging process. My brain immediately started thinking of ways to detect a stretched belt. Maybe a strain gauge at the top that measures when the gantry is forced on an angle?
Nice video. Frustrations and all. You basically made it easy for the tech. Maybe you buy a new assembly for a spare maybe not, but at least now you know what to look for and possibly plan the maintenance for the swap out. Great problem solving. I like your shop videos that you make about shop dial in stuff. Thanks for sharing
The Norseman is my dream knife I really hope at some point down the road I’ll be able to get one. Love your channel keep doing what you’re doing
Nice work repairing..
But this type of repairs can be noticed if you are making preventive maintenance….you should implement it and make some check list from mechanisms to check and machine cleaning…maybe it was first time that you clean that area. It was full of oil
A belt sitting in oil is a bad idea...Ford, please take note.
Loves me a wet belt 😂
@
You must be an engine re-builder. 😂
@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 My machine 'shop is next to a delivery company that use Ford Transit vans. I like to go outside and have a brew a few times a day, and i often end up having a chat with their manager.
He has left me in no doubt as to how bad those engines are 😂. We're in the UK, so they're all manual as well. I think he said 4 out of the fleet of 12 vans have had issues with 2nd gear as well. Not to mention all the other issues!
I've been trying out a lot of different tool changer designs in the past few weeks to figure out which one would fit my machine best...
Now I can watch John do Kern stuff on his Kern and do my research on ATCs at the same time 😂
Thank you!
Interesting that it gets slow if kept on. I use to run a mitsubichi lu-620 that had some kind of weird issue so it had to stay on all the time (was an ongoing issue and was like pulling teeth trying to get it fixed, thats a rant for another day) that had a tnc530 panel. One day it was like it couldn't read ahead, every line of code it would hesitate, rebooting it fixed that. It only did it once to my knowledge but it also had a different known bug for that version (would give a fatal alarm error when adjusting an offset on occasion) so updating the software would likely kill 2 stones with 1 bird. Keep up the great work
Let's go! Another Grimsmo video!
That toolholder falling HURT, but i'm glad you got it fixed and din't break the probe!
Great to see a new video, awesome!
I like this because I am watching you do with your machine what I do with data.
The tool change lag sounds like a memory leak bug in the software. A reboot starts with a fresh empty memory pool. I've chased and fixed many of those types of bugs in my career.
That belt can be worn by a position that is much used, like for a tool position for an end mill that is frequently used, but that belt is worn, plain and simple. 😂
I change belts on our cnc’s (not a kern) after 10k hour. They are routers that are running almost 24/7 just cutting out an aluminium arm and some smaller mounts, but I have seen that the timing belts are worn at the position where it just drill and thread 30 ish holes around a 20cm hole on each arm we make.
We buy our belts at powge and cloudray in china for our 4 routers. Been happy with them for the last 4-5 years. Pretty sure they have your belts with that pitch. But 500$ was not bad if you need it within a day or two. Anyway great channel.
I'm a little surprised that they don't use a "sealed" linear drive there or use one that's more oil/coolant resistant/compatible.
Good work on the repair though!
I enjoy this content.
1 question tho, Why is the windows for the toolchanger cabinet tinted? wouldn't it make more sense to be able to see the tools better?
Can you make a thin cover out of aluminum or plastic to cover the bottom belt from coolant drip and the subsequent oil dissolving your belt?
Machine I used to use had 5 tool holders per spindle. Sensor would get a little dirty and push down a little to far and eventually bust the bearings and bending it. It was a monthly thing and was annoying
Cartesian tool magazines are great for adding volume, and great at adding complexity, maintenance, and slowing down tool changes. From experience, I'd see if Gates PowerGrip has an equivalent for the next change. I'd bet your Willemin has all Gates with way way more than 12k hrs without issue
I'm wondering if you need to change the upper belt too because it's already worn but the new one isn't and they might continue to wear at different rates. But hopefully not.
The upper belt wont see the coolant that the lower belt will so it will probably continue to last much longer than the lower one
@@Kennystarfighter909 I agree - but there is that unknown factor IMO about the wear rate but you're right - they already have different wear rates.
Check Misumi. Like McMaster but more automation based
Great video 👍 Doesn't matter how sophisticated a machine is they all have quirks,buy a spare rail or just drop a probe your choice 😅
We had a faulty sensor on a tool changer that thought the toolholder was empty - it wasnt. That is in my top 3 of noises at work I dont ever wanna hear again.
The Mazak technician said it SHOULD be impossible for that to ever happen. They fixed it even though the machine was out of warranty.
EDIT: You should honestly have put in some empty tool holders when testing if it dropped
😅
Depending on how the tooth profile looks it might have worked with a GT3/3GT belt. Kind of beefier version of whats used in 3d printers.
If you had a spare unit you could swap the new one in and refurbish the belt in the spare ready for 10k hours later?
Go ahead and get another belt to install in the lower unit so it will be sitting on the shelf, read to be put on the next time the belt fails.
How's that floor so clean? Our floor gets greasy and sticky couple of hours after mopping it. Any specific coating that would help with this?
Im surprised the belt doesnt have any metal strands in it to prevent stretch
Nothing is easy. It is always something. Hope u fix it soon and u don’t drop the probe. We will keep buying everything u make.
Looks like the belt has been degraded and worn/aged by all the drips of oil. If the belt is stressed more on one place (bending around the pully) due to proximity and gantry travel distance that might explae the uneven wear. Dirt particles in the oil also might play a role. Look at some cars where the timing belt is also in the same motor oil like anything else. Those belts wear out terribly without proper maintenance leading to engine damage.
Maybe you could 3d print a gard of some sort so the belt is not exposed directly to oil 🤔
Looks like standard HTD 3M 20mm wide belt to me? You can get for 25€/meter. Just get a roll of it for the next time. That being said, its a design flaw in the system, there is a version of this linear drive with a covered belt for "Rough envoironments with dust and oil" - so just pick the right part for the design Kern?^^
What is the hourly rate for a Kern technician?
I charge $185 USD. I'm not the highest by a long shot.
3:15 Heidenhain running Linux, nowadays?
Awesome!
well i guess its time for john to upgrade to the new HD+ xD i mean insted of only 3 axis hydrodynamic its all 5 axis thats hydrodynamic
well since you did have it shut down and changed the belt on the bottom you might as well had changed all the belt's just in case and nice to know that they are all the same age
Are software/firmware update free? While an update does not fix this hardware problem, I might fix other weird things.
Of course an update might also introduce some issues.
Gripper needs replaced or it's misaligned
Empty the topl holders.... then no tools get damaged while you test
Top works fine. Bottom fails.
Bottom belt broke. Top is good.
Might be my conclusion too.😊
if this wasn't on the PM schedule from kern, I would be upset.
hahahaha, Dude we want videos like this one: sorry you have to suffer LOL. Keep it up man.
4k probe= 4 knives
@I_Am_Your_Problem he makes knives and pens
Wow. I cannot imagine spending that much money on a machine to have it do dumb stuff. Your patience is herculean.
Machines break. Expensive complicated machines are no exception. It’s just part of the life of working with machinery of any sort.
5 YEARS!!! right outside the warranty!! lol
So So what ever 😆
Find out the problem before u put the probe in there, make sure it's fixed, look up people that had same problem an fixed there issue
Belt is guwy n sticking an shaking the hand at last moment making it move an drop it
That's a lousy design with those belts. I guess they needed to cut cost somewhere....
You are lucky it didnt drop the probe...😅
Robot grippers suffering arthritis 😢
words for the wise: Please, for the love of god, do not call the touchprobe if the toolchanger is dropping tools. If available, test with an EMPTY, less than new, toolholder.