I'll never forget how impactful Vagner Rocha's Kimura trap instructional was on my game. Learned all sorts of great stuff, that I then implemented it into my rolls. I use the kimura trap and teach it all the time. Along with my own details and way of describing it. Can't imagine a world where that instructional wasn't extremely beneficial. I teach using CLA, and my classes are usually all 100% live. I like eco, but a statement like this goes directly against my lived experiences. Knowledge about isn't needed for knowledge of, this is true.. But it also can lead to knowledge of. According to ecological researcher, Dr. Duarte Araujo. As he states "knowledge about is a plus, and sometimes works for verbal athletes, and sometimes doesn't for verbal athletes." The problem is many BJJ gyms rely soley on knowledge about as a way of teaching, which is a waste of time instead of actually experiencing the environment for yourself. But on your own time, is knowledge about NEVER helpful? Clearly it can be.
@@thegrapplersperspectivethe point made about lifting weights is the most applicable to understanding why drilling and good instruction works well. This guy doesn’t make any sense to me and his comments immediately following your comments about squats exposed some issues with his idea. I get that there are bad coaches out there. But he really isn’t saying anything other than that there are bad coaches. His claim is that “someone who knows something doesn’t pause” when asked a questions about fundamental aspects of lift or movement. Huh? No. That’s not true. You guys passed but then answered the question about squatting. He is ultimately saying that he is a true expert and only true experts “5 star chefs” can truly teach jiu jitsu. He sees himself as the 5 star jiu jitsu chef. If you don’t say it his way, you aren’t explaining the technique correctly. Eh. No. I don’t learn that way. I learn from seeing someone else move. People have different ways of learning and his philosophical approach doesn’t work for how I take in information in my brain. I’ve learned a lot of sports. None of them through the lecture he gave about arm locks. He’s just trying to make himself seem like the most knowledgeable person ie the 5 star Jiu jitsu chef. Maybe he is, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t other good coaches or that his way of teaching works for everyone.
@@michaelm9710 I read this and truly feel bad for you. I can’t imagine how difficult listening to someone speak on a subject can be for some people. I’m not comparing my self to a top chef. But I am trying to become something of the equivalent. You’re right to say that I charge other coaches for doing a poor job but I’m also equally stark in the face of my own weaknesses. They just didn’t ask me what they were. You can always hang your hopes on me failing. And if I do, your poor understanding of my insufficiently articulated position can be emotionally vindicated.
@@DrHarbirSingh me too. But it’s the training that builds the skill. And it’s how you utilize and focus the efforts of future training opportunities that improve on the skills you acquire
I've heard ecogical practitioners say that a goal of the ecological approach is to avoid l unnecessary jargon and terminology that create barriers to learning. I've never heard a more jargony approach than in this conversation.
I can’t follow anything this guy is saying other than that he is the best coach and everyone else is just using jargon. He literally said that you could put a coach on mute and learn more from Owen than listening to his coaching. He says it right. Everyone else says it wrong. The guys then respond with “oh yeah. I get it.” Huh? No
@@thegrapplersperspectiveis the entire point of the podcast that we have to be on the Mats to learn? Is he just bashing instructional videos or is he saying that drilling on the mat with a coach giving you instructions and helping you learn the movements is also bad? I couldn’t be figuring this stuff out without my coaches coaching me. I don’t watch instructional videos but I will once I know more
@@ThebestofpodsI've rolled with them. They're good. You can also really see the instructional influence. Not in a bad way. But I can tell they they've watched a lot of Craig Jones.
@@TheFarmMMA you’ve used “knowledge about” to inform your intention and attention. You gained “knowledge of” by repeatedly exposing yourself to the problems you were trying to solve. It was the doing that got you good. It takes 30 seconds to show someone what a kimura is or maybe a few more minutes to tell you something about it, to shift their focus. It takes hours of live work to make the kimura happen on a resisting opponent. It will take months or years of live work to make it happen against a skilled player, amongst many other training interventions (explicit instructions and digital instructions being the least).
Greg question: you say training should be all live. What about physical burn-out? would you say "training less often, but higher quality, will get you just as good" or do you use less resistance as a form of constraint as well, to limit burning the athlete out?
Follow up question: how do coaches get good at understanding the invariants and "good outcomes"? If you are a coach and your coach doesn't communicate this way, how do you look for the right input to transition to this way of communicating about looking for invariants and coaching players towards the desired outcome?
I'm not greg but he answered something similar in another podcast. That's why he has experimented a lot with his competition team, he varies intensity/duration depending on the current goals. Just like anything training related, there's no simple answer to manage training volume, especially when you have 10s of individuals in the same class
If you are trying to control intensity, you can do it by manipulating time or partner selection. However, if you are telling your athletes to go easy or decrease intensity (wherever that means) training will be not be representative.. we don’t have the cognitive capability to control intensity.. if your coach tells you that, then he doesn’t know what he is talking about..
That’s not what I’m saying, what I’m saying is that is if your coach starts saying go 30% or 50 % that’s not possible to measure. Learning is hard in general..
Great episode! I've spectated the great Eco vs IP war for a while and I think there are two things I'd like two see future conversations focus on more. How are the best competitors training their jujitsu and how do we attract and retain more new people to the sport? I think these are the two "invariants" that every gym should be focusing on.
I’ve benefitted GREATLY from the depth of understanding that can be portrayed in an instructional. In class there is a little bit of big picture stuff, but you can’t go very in depth in an hour with a mixed skill level that you can when you build a story over 3-4 hours of instructional. It’s the difference between your average class and a seminar. I think I like the approach of ecological learning is great, in conjunction with in depth study of positions and moves
You're right, the whole idea that you have to pick one or the other as "best" is a false dichotomy. Should you have a piston or a crankshaft in your car's gas engine? You have to have both, there is no either/or. You don't have to pick whether or not your car has a spark plug or a valve, they are just individual parts of the system. You should learn a concept with instruction and drills and then explore it in a live game. Then with regular frequency you should do an UNconstrained roll to practice recognizing situations and apply what you learned in the instruction and the constrained game. It's a three-part process. Saying you shouldn't have pure instruction, or shouldn't drill, or shouldn't have games, or shouldn't freely roll are all stupid statements.
@CyberneticArgumentCreator By watching an instructional means that when you are rolling you will be trying to recall those moves and won't be attuned to your environment.
Watching an Instructional with techniques you only consumse solutions for certain Problems that accure. For which Position you need 4-5 hours of Material? Listen to danaher showing you ten ways to seperate hands in an armbar but never explains how to Control the Position. You only watch solutions for Problems and have a little bit more knowledge than your Trainingspartner whos Not watching Videos. You can watch hours of Stuff, but If you dont practice IT against resistance, you cant apply it.
1:01:57 so far all I'm hearing is what I been told years ago before I did jujitsu and it's "technique teach you concepts"... so nobody tries to learn the technique in a deeper level
All he is talking about is Motor Learning. The argument is "a technique cannot be the same for everyone" why? We all have different affordances. Affordances are: what physically, emotional, intellectual traits you bring to a task / behavior and what does your environment offer. Is the floor flat and even are the objects in the way? In Grappling you and your opponent offer different affordances. Short person submission and the way they do their submissions will be different than a tall long limbed persons submissions. He is organizing training forcing you to solve the specific task and objectives required to perform a submission. Using your affordances. This is not new. It works, it's been around since the 1980's maybe even earlier. Study exercise physiology, psychology, motor learning and you learn about this.
I remember when I started jujitsu with a basic course where we learned the "basics". We got really good at shrimping around the mats and everything seemed to work when drilling some passes and submissions from the mount and the back. Then after 8 weeks we were allowed to go to regular classes, which were just unadultered hard sparring from start to finish. Most people quit since the "basics" we were taught didn't help at all and those who stuck with it had to just start piecing things together. I definitely believe that if our first 8 weeks had been organized with CLA, we would have been much better prepared for the requirements of the regular classes.
Big eoement of truth to that. U learn moves and then learn whatever works when u actually spar lol. That said, bnot sure id have figured out a triangle choke, one of my favs, had I not drilled the technique
I agree from my experiences as well. I found 10th Planet offers much clearer feedback and coaching (at least at the location I attend) and it makes sense to me for the first time.
Mica Galvão said: "The F1 driver and the uber driver do the same thing, but one knows where to put focus on and what he's trying to accomplish and the uber is just driving around."
is there any place i can learn this kind of coaching? or like these kinds of scenarios where he mentioned with how to learn a beginner to do an armbar, he mentions to watch bjj and to try and recreate it. or is the point that you just need to break down different moves/concepts and to make limitations and just keep trying until something clicks? This type of training seems very interesting but how do we get people to do this kind of training? How do i try and make my coaches try this approach, how do i sell them this concept of training? I would love if most if not all of my time training would be actually rolling/trying things out instead of mindlessly drilling or doing moves i feel like i will never do in a live setting or 20 min warmups etc.
Hi, question? I've had issues passing guard since i could remember. It seems that once I changed my mentally from trying to pass to "get out if leg restraints to get to torso to crank hand up/down" has allowed me somehow to passs guard and apply Americana or kimura more effectively. I don't make it a game per se? But I am "playing" this little game with myself. I went from 0/10 wins to 6/10 wins. Is my mental shift to be blamed for success?
@JohnKing-yr7xn based on the discussion, you found a movement solution that works for you. An invariant feature of guard passing is that you must get around the arms and legs of the bottom player while controlling the hips or head. Hip and head control are prominent features of an effective pin. This is why you'll often hear Greg and others say "passing is pinning".
@@AnaranjadoGuitar that makes sense. I heard someone call the full guard as the "Giant Grip" that one has to break to work your games and that one shift in name made it click for me almost instantaneously.
But his student corbe uses the straitjacket system when he’s on the back so I’m supposed to believe that he came up with that himself based on a fun little game?
I do yoga and I'm extremely flexible and HARD to unbalance. So a while ago I was doing Jozef's tripod pass without watching him or drilling the technique before. It just made sense for my body type. I couldn't care less if they got butterfly hooks because I have a great base. Months later came across Jozef and realized he was doing it way before me. I bought his instructional and the concept he teaches were things I already was doing unconsciously. The pass just makes sense. The same as the straijacket systems makes sense for the body.
90% of the coaches out there don’t follow a strict curriculum so basically no one correctly teaches „basics“. Most of us dropped in a random class and had to figure most of it out ourselves. So an ecological task based approach would probably let you grasp the basics much faster
I prefer this approach, always have. but i still spend too much time helping students create grip fighting setups that give them success. They seem particularly related to peoples personalities and honestly ive never figured out how to get most students to intuite them quicker even when they know what works best they will still want to do other things. I've tried games, mental framing, all kinds of ways, but nothing has been good. do you have any success with this? Constantly watching people with small frames tying up with big people kills me alittle bit (and them, but they seem to be ok with that)
I'll never forget how impactful Vagner Rocha's Kimura trap instructional was on my game. Learned all sorts of great stuff, that I then implemented it into my rolls. I use the kimura trap and teach it all the time. Along with my own details and way of describing it. Can't imagine a world where that instructional wasn't extremely beneficial. I teach using CLA, and my classes are usually all 100% live. I like eco, but a statement like this goes directly against my lived experiences. Knowledge about isn't needed for knowledge of, this is true.. But it also can lead to knowledge of. According to ecological researcher, Dr. Duarte Araujo. As he states "knowledge about is a plus, and sometimes works for verbal athletes, and sometimes doesn't for verbal athletes." The problem is many BJJ gyms rely soley on knowledge about as a way of teaching, which is a waste of time instead of actually experiencing the environment for yourself. But on your own time, is knowledge about NEVER helpful? Clearly it can be.
Thank you for actually listening and understanding the point
Great point Jordan 👍✌️
Danny.
Good point 💯
Instructionals have helped me a ton, I’ve won comps based on things that I’ve watched in instructionals
I think there is genuinely a place for both.
Danny.
@@thegrapplersperspectivethe point made about lifting weights is the most applicable to understanding why drilling and good instruction works well. This guy doesn’t make any sense to me and his comments immediately following your comments about squats exposed some issues with his idea. I get that there are bad coaches out there. But he really isn’t saying anything other than that there are bad coaches. His claim is that “someone who knows something doesn’t pause” when asked a questions about fundamental aspects of lift or movement. Huh? No. That’s not true. You guys passed but then answered the question about squatting.
He is ultimately saying that he is a true expert and only true experts “5 star chefs” can truly teach jiu jitsu. He sees himself as the 5 star jiu jitsu chef. If you don’t say it his way, you aren’t explaining the technique correctly. Eh. No. I don’t learn that way. I learn from seeing someone else move. People have different ways of learning and his philosophical approach doesn’t work for how I take in information in my brain.
I’ve learned a lot of sports. None of them through the lecture he gave about arm locks.
He’s just trying to make himself seem like the most knowledgeable person ie the 5 star Jiu jitsu chef. Maybe he is, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t other good coaches or that his way of teaching works for everyone.
@@michaelm9710 I read this and truly feel bad for you. I can’t imagine how difficult listening to someone speak on a subject can be for some people.
I’m not comparing my self to a top chef. But I am trying to become something of the equivalent. You’re right to say that I charge other coaches for doing a poor job but I’m also equally stark in the face of my own weaknesses. They just didn’t ask me what they were.
You can always hang your hopes on me failing. And if I do, your poor understanding of my insufficiently articulated position can be emotionally vindicated.
@@DrHarbirSingh me too. But it’s the training that builds the skill. And it’s how you utilize and focus the efforts of future training opportunities that improve on the skills you acquire
I've heard ecogical practitioners say that a goal of the ecological approach is to avoid l unnecessary jargon and terminology that create barriers to learning. I've never heard a more jargony approach than in this conversation.
Haha at times I struggled to follow it.
Danny.
I can’t follow anything this guy is saying other than that he is the best coach and everyone else is just using jargon. He literally said that you could put a coach on mute and learn more from Owen than listening to his coaching. He says it right. Everyone else says it wrong. The guys then respond with “oh yeah. I get it.”
Huh? No
@@thegrapplersperspectiveis the entire point of the podcast that we have to be on the Mats to learn? Is he just bashing instructional videos or is he saying that drilling on the mat with a coach giving you instructions and helping you learn the movements is also bad? I couldn’t be figuring this stuff out without my coaches coaching me. I don’t watch instructional videos but I will once I know more
Can you site an example of jargon that was used? I’ll gladly define it for you in common language.
We dont have a professor at our gym so we rely completely on instructionals to learn and develop.
Are you any good?
@@ThebestofpodsI've rolled with them. They're good. You can also really see the instructional influence. Not in a bad way. But I can tell they they've watched a lot of Craig Jones.
@@TheFarmMMA you’ve used “knowledge about” to inform your intention and attention. You gained “knowledge of” by repeatedly exposing yourself to the problems you were trying to solve. It was the doing that got you good.
It takes 30 seconds to show someone what a kimura is or maybe a few more minutes to tell you something about it, to shift their focus. It takes hours of live work to make the kimura happen on a resisting opponent. It will take months or years of live work to make it happen against a skilled player, amongst many other training interventions (explicit instructions and digital instructions being the least).
@@gregsouders9648 it must be super frustrating speaking with people who don't even bother to read the literature.
God bless you!
Greg question: you say training should be all live. What about physical burn-out? would you say "training less often, but higher quality, will get you just as good" or do you use less resistance as a form of constraint as well, to limit burning the athlete out?
Follow up question: how do coaches get good at understanding the invariants and "good outcomes"? If you are a coach and your coach doesn't communicate this way, how do you look for the right input to transition to this way of communicating about looking for invariants and coaching players towards the desired outcome?
I'm not greg but he answered something similar in another podcast. That's why he has experimented a lot with his competition team, he varies intensity/duration depending on the current goals.
Just like anything training related, there's no simple answer to manage training volume, especially when you have 10s of individuals in the same class
If you are trying to control intensity, you can do it by manipulating time or partner selection. However, if you are telling your athletes to go easy or decrease intensity (wherever that means) training will be not be representative.. we don’t have the cognitive capability to control intensity.. if your coach tells you that, then he doesn’t know what he is talking about..
@@juansergioflores9118Does this mean that a training relationship between a big person and small can't work.
That’s not what I’m saying, what I’m saying is that is if your coach starts saying go 30% or 50 % that’s not possible to measure. Learning is hard in general..
Great episode! I've spectated the great Eco vs IP war for a while and I think there are two things I'd like two see future conversations focus on more. How are the best competitors training their jujitsu and how do we attract and retain more new people to the sport? I think these are the two "invariants" that every gym should be focusing on.
I’ve benefitted GREATLY from the depth of understanding that can be portrayed in an instructional.
In class there is a little bit of big picture stuff, but you can’t go very in depth in an hour with a mixed skill level that you can when you build a story over 3-4 hours of instructional. It’s the difference between your average class and a seminar.
I think I like the approach of ecological learning is great, in conjunction with in depth study of positions and moves
You're right, the whole idea that you have to pick one or the other as "best" is a false dichotomy.
Should you have a piston or a crankshaft in your car's gas engine? You have to have both, there is no either/or. You don't have to pick whether or not your car has a spark plug or a valve, they are just individual parts of the system.
You should learn a concept with instruction and drills and then explore it in a live game. Then with regular frequency you should do an UNconstrained roll to practice recognizing situations and apply what you learned in the instruction and the constrained game. It's a three-part process. Saying you shouldn't have pure instruction, or shouldn't drill, or shouldn't have games, or shouldn't freely roll are all stupid statements.
@CyberneticArgumentCreator By watching an instructional means that when you are rolling you will be trying to recall those moves and won't be attuned to your environment.
@@Bradley9967 I think you have to watch the instructional and also frequently drill/ game the positions.
Watching an Instructional with techniques you only consumse solutions for certain Problems that accure. For which Position you need 4-5 hours of Material? Listen to danaher showing you ten ways to seperate hands in an armbar but never explains how to Control the Position. You only watch solutions for Problems and have a little bit more knowledge than your Trainingspartner whos Not watching Videos. You can watch hours of Stuff, but If you dont practice IT against resistance, you cant apply it.
I couldn’t agree more I believe that a mixture of both is optimal.
Danny.
1:01:57 so far all I'm hearing is what I been told years ago before I did jujitsu and it's "technique teach you concepts"... so nobody tries to learn the technique in a deeper level
Thanks for the comment hope you enjoyed the podcast
All he is talking about is Motor Learning. The argument is "a technique cannot be the same for everyone" why? We all have different affordances. Affordances are: what physically, emotional, intellectual traits you bring to a task / behavior and what does your environment offer. Is the floor flat and even are the objects in the way? In Grappling you and your opponent offer different affordances. Short person submission and the way they do their submissions will be different than a tall long limbed persons submissions. He is organizing training forcing you to solve the specific task and objectives required to perform a submission. Using your affordances. This is not new. It works, it's been around since the 1980's maybe even earlier. Study exercise physiology, psychology, motor learning and you learn about this.
He's not saying it's new, bozo!
But it sure is to all the jiu-jitsu coaches who haven't opened a book since high school.
@@AN043V3R You are correct. I was just saying it as an observation. Everybody I talk to about this freaks out. Like its no real lol.
Thanks for the comment and taking the time to watch it 🙌
Thanks for the comment legend
Yes, but from an application perspective.
is this guy painting his fingernails? man this xanadu guy from australia screwed us all up
I saw that, too. It's so weird.
Most of the stuff I use is from instructionals
Love this ❤️🔥
Warming up and drilling is dumb. Just roll and go about your day it’s not that complicated.
I remember when I started jujitsu with a basic course where we learned the "basics". We got really good at shrimping around the mats and everything seemed to work when drilling some passes and submissions from the mount and the back.
Then after 8 weeks we were allowed to go to regular classes, which were just unadultered hard sparring from start to finish.
Most people quit since the "basics" we were taught didn't help at all and those who stuck with it had to just start piecing things together.
I definitely believe that if our first 8 weeks had been organized with CLA, we would have been much better prepared for the requirements of the regular classes.
Yeah I agree! However I think some fundamental movement training is essential to prepare your body for jiujitsu.
Danny.
Big eoement of truth to that. U learn moves and then learn whatever works when u actually spar lol.
That said, bnot sure id have figured out a triangle choke, one of my favs, had I not drilled the technique
I agree from my experiences as well. I found 10th Planet offers much clearer feedback and coaching (at least at the location I attend) and it makes sense to me for the first time.
Always fun. I am sure there must be an easier way to explain it. No idea what that is though!!
Hahaha welcome to my world.
Danny.
Mica Galvão said: "The F1 driver and the uber driver do the same thing, but one knows where to put focus on and what he's trying to accomplish and the uber is just driving around."
Hahaha love this quote.
Danny.
ya this is cap. I legit learned solely from instructionals and improved extremely fast
I think people have different learning styles ✌️
Danny.
@@thegrapplersperspective wouldn't this comment by you contradict your video title
You learned from doing.
There is a good reason I shifted my perspective on coaching and instruction. Even at my own peril.
As coaches we need to up our game.
Well said ❤️👍
Danny.
is there any place i can learn this kind of coaching? or like these kinds of scenarios where he mentioned with how to learn a beginner to do an armbar, he mentions to watch bjj and to try and recreate it.
or is the point that you just need to break down different moves/concepts and to make limitations and just keep trying until something clicks?
This type of training seems very interesting but how do we get people to do this kind of training? How do i try and make my coaches try this approach, how do i sell them this concept of training?
I would love if most if not all of my time training would be actually rolling/trying things out instead of mindlessly drilling or doing moves i feel like i will never do in a live setting or 20 min warmups etc.
😊
Hi, question? I've had issues passing guard since i could remember. It seems that once I changed my mentally from trying to pass to "get out if leg restraints to get to torso to crank hand up/down" has allowed me somehow to passs guard and apply Americana or kimura more effectively. I don't make it a game per se? But I am "playing" this little game with myself. I went from 0/10 wins to 6/10 wins.
Is my mental shift to be blamed for success?
The mind is a very powerful thing.
Danny.
@JohnKing-yr7xn based on the discussion, you found a movement solution that works for you. An invariant feature of guard passing is that you must get around the arms and legs of the bottom player while controlling the hips or head. Hip and head control are prominent features of an effective pin. This is why you'll often hear Greg and others say "passing is pinning".
@@AnaranjadoGuitar that makes sense. I heard someone call the full guard as the "Giant Grip" that one has to break to work your games and that one shift in name made it click for me almost instantaneously.
@@JohnKing-yr7xn i like that!
So you are saying John does not know how to teach??
Great podcast 👏🏻👏🏻 found myself taking it back in sections to re listen to some of his points to try make sense of them 😂🤯
Mate I wish I could of done that 😂 thanks for watching. Danny.
you boys doing it big, keep it up 👑
Thanks for your continued support bro, appreciate it! 🤙🏼
But his student corbe uses the straitjacket system when he’s on the back so I’m supposed to believe that he came up with that himself based on a fun little game?
Maybe 👀😂🤔
Danny.
I do yoga and I'm extremely flexible and HARD to unbalance. So a while ago I was doing Jozef's tripod pass without watching him or drilling the technique before. It just made sense for my body type. I couldn't care less if they got butterfly hooks because I have a great base.
Months later came across Jozef and realized he was doing it way before me. I bought his instructional and the concept he teaches were things I already was doing unconsciously. The pass just makes sense.
The same as the straijacket systems makes sense for the body.
That’s not what he is saying
Yes, he develop his method of doing it through live training.
Great pod, y'all!
Thankyou ❤️
I truly believe this shit only works if you already know the basic
I teach a complete beginner Grappling Course three Times a week with 20+ on the mats with this Method and it works very well.
Thanks the comment
That’s great I bet it’s fun!
What are the basics?
90% of the coaches out there don’t follow a strict curriculum so basically no one correctly teaches „basics“. Most of us dropped in a random class and had to figure most of it out ourselves. So an ecological task based approach would probably let you grasp the basics much faster
Dont agree with this mister.
Why not?
I bet you don't have the slightest clue as to what you don't agree with.
He is the best coach in the game.
Thankyou for the comment.
lol
@AEBJJ159 it's true.
Greg would disagree with the absolute nature of this accolade.
@@AN043V3Rnah. John danaher is way better
A lot of ignorance showing in this comment section.
I prefer this approach, always have. but i still spend too much time helping students create grip fighting setups that give them success. They seem particularly related to peoples personalities and honestly ive never figured out how to get most students to intuite them quicker even when they know what works best they will still want to do other things. I've tried games, mental framing, all kinds of ways, but nothing has been good. do you have any success with this? Constantly watching people with small frames tying up with big people kills me alittle bit (and them, but they seem to be ok with that)
So just bjj instructional is a bunch of scam and don't buy them.
If you feel you get something from them then of course use them as a resource.
Danny.
If you pirate them you'll improve for sure
A lot of people will look at an instructional just to get some ideas that they can then experiment with in a non-compliant setting.
They're great but overpriced
@@ResolvendoAPPS You've just got to be patient. Got one off bjj fanatics on daily deal + discount from building up points for the grand total of £0.80