ไม่สามารถเล่นวิดีโอนี้
ขออภัยในความไม่สะดวก
Sunni vs Wahabi | UNEDITED DEBATE | Is seeking help from the Prophet ﷺ Shirk?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ค. 2016
- Over the years, Shaykh Asrar Rashid has attempted on many occasions to sit with the opponents and and discuss principle matters pertaining to aqeedah, but to no avail. However, this finally came to fruition when Ustadh Abdul Rahman Hassan and his team called out Shaykh Asrar Rashid for a debate. Subsequently after both parties agreed terms and conditions of a Tawasul debate in London (18/05/16), the debate took place at the Marriott Hotel, London, Heathrow on the 21/05/16.
The entire debate has been uploaded, and left unedited. Key points pertaining to the debate are listed below alongside several conditions that were broken by Abdul Rahman and team:
1. A person from his crowd shouted first at Shaykh Asrar
2. The people with Abdul Rahman shouted takbir first which was against the conditions
3. Abdul Rahman was not reading from original sources but secondary sources. This was against the conditions.
4. The co debator Abu Taymiyah broke the agreement and released small clips before the entire video is out.
5. Abdul Rahman continuously interjected while Shaykh Asrar spoke. This was against the conditions.
6. Clause 7 and 8 didn't mention about whether istighatha was permitted during the worldly life of the Prophet alayhisalam. Abdul Rahman believes it is, so technicaly Shaykh Asrar won. This is mentioned in the debate.
7. Abdul Rahman did not even have the original Tabarani hadith work which he was criticising. Shaykh Asrar gave it to him. Abdul Rahman copying from non original sources.
8. Abdul Rahman kept misquoting Shaykh Asrar's stance. At one point he had to apologise for doing so.
9. Abdul Rahman was the main source of digression by continuously bringing up the Asharis.
10. Abdul Rahman was unable to show the statement of 'hayy, qadir and hadir' from an original work of the salaf but instead was using Ibn Taymiyya's work.
11. Abdul Rahman was unable to show the criticism of the narrators from the original works. He was reading from a booklet. Shaykh Asrar had all the jarh and tadil works even the ones Abdul Rahman hadn't heard of like Kashif of Imam Dhahabi.
12. Abdul Rahman attempted to correct Shaykh Asrar on pronunciation of Arabic words but Shaykh Asrar corrected him on Quran and at one point where he made a verb mudaf and the noun majrur!
13. Follow the debate and you will note that Abdul Rahman avoids many of Shaykh Asrar's but Shaykh Asrar counters all his points.
14. Abdul Rahman attempts to say the hadith presented by Shaykh Asrar are mawdu' when not even Salafi scholars say this.
15. This is an important point. They admit the Prophet alayhisalam is alive in the grave but yet they make it seem the debate is about the dead generally.
![Ustadh Abdul Rahman Discussion On The Shirk Debate Conditions [FULL UNEDITED]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QE-1lZwprqg/mqdefault.jpg)
You alone (ALLAH swt) we worship, you alone (ALLAH swt) we ask for help.
Even my little daughter knows to ask Allah only in Dua.
Guess it's fitra.
Very interesting watch. What is disappointing however is the terrible manners and name calling in the comment section. If we are true Muslims and true lovers of RasoolAllah saw we should act with good manners and with nice language, especially with our MUSLIM BROTHERS. May Allah guide us all on the right path and instil the love of RasoolAllah saw in our hearts. Ameen
Narrated 'Uqba bin 'Amir: One day the Prophet went out and offered the funeral prayers of the martyrs of Uhud and then went up the pulpit and said, "I will pave the way for you as your predecessor and will be a witness on you. By Allah! I see my Fount (Kauthar) just now and I have been given the keys of all the treasures of the earth (or the keys of the earth) "BY ALLAH! I AM NOT AFRAID THAT YOU WILL WORSHIP OTHERS ALONG WITH ALLAH AFTER MY DEATH, BUT I AM AFRAID THAT YOU WILL FIGHT WITH ONE ANOTHER FOR THE WORLDLY THINGS"
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 428: (Sahih Bukhari)
alhamdulillah the quran and sunnah are certainly clear and simple so if dua is worship then why direct it to other than Allaah?
Congrats to you for releasing the full and unedited version.
Hudhaifa i.e. Ibn al Yaman (may Allah be pleased with him) said that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Verily, I fear about a man from you who will read the Qur'an so much that his face will become enlightened and he will come to personify Islam. This will continue until Allah desires.Then these things will be taken away from him when he will disregard them by putting them all behind his back and will attack his neighbor with the sword accusing him of Shirk.The Prophet peace be upon him was asked - which of the two will be deserving of such an accusation? - The attacker or the attacked? The Prophet replied - the attacker (the one accusing the other of Shirk)
Narrated by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih, Tahqiq Nasir Albani, Volume 001, Page No. 200, Hadith Number 81] Nasir Albani said: 'this hadith is hasan' also see [Silsilat al-ahadith al-sahihah - Albani Volume 007-A, Page No. 605, Hadith Number 3201]
I like Shaykh Asrar Rashid's style. Very focused man. No silly facial gestures or smiles. Very knowledgeable man. Good debate.
May Allah(swt) give Shaykh Asrar Rashid a long and healthy life. Ameen
إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
It is You we worship and You we ask for help
we recite in daily prayer this verse 42 times and we still asking some else beside Allah SWT for help ?
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ اسْتَعِينُواْ بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلاَةِ إِنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ
is Istigatha mahaal sharaan or mahaal akhlan?
is istigatha mahaal akhlan or mahaal sharaan?
And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. (The Holy Quran 51:56)
So based on this verse, it is established that Worship is for Allah alone. Now let`s see what the hadith has to say about Du`a.
The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: ‘Dua is the essence of worship’ (Musnad Ahmed & Tirmidhi)
In fact in another hadith it is mentioned that,‘Dua is worship’ (Sunan Abu Dawood)
So based on this i am claiming that Du`a is only & only for Allah and to make dua to others beside Allah is plain shirk. if you disagree with my claim then prove it wrong with evidence
+A Traveller In Dunya
is shirkmahaal akhlan or mahaal sharaan
Assalaamualikum, great debate MashaAllah, I would just like to say if I may, I was a Sunni became Ahlu Hadith and back to being a Sunni (years later) as I was seeking the Haq. By watching this debate, it is clear to me that Ustadh Abdur Rahman wanted to win the debate by engaging the coward and showed a level of disrespect (which I see kids on the street do) and dishonouring the guest by calling him Asrar numerous times whilst the Shaykh honoured the host by calling him Ustadh. For me and I only speak for myself, Adab and modesty are essential. I rather be a layman and in love with the Most Beloved creation Salallahu Alyhi Wasalaam than be a man of vast knowledge yet ignorant of his ignorance. Assalaamualikum.
Asrar didn't bring any credible proofs for any of his arguments. He just kept avoiding the questions at hand and asking questions instead of making his point with proofs from kitab and sunna, and the way of assalafus salih The scholarship will always remain with those who stick to the way of the salaf us salih. What's disheartening about the whole debate is to see the pervasiveness of ignorance among muslims.
SubhanALLAH. After watching this debate Sheikh Asrar has further strengthened my aqeeda on this particular issue. Much love sheikh!
Alhamdulillah after watching the whole debate as an independant spectator I would declare Shaykh Asrar victorious here. He has made each and every point crystal clear. You can just feel the satisfaction upon his answers in Q&A session towards the end of debate. Not to forget that other party has trimmed off this short after-debate session. وجاء الحق وزھق الباطل ان الباطل کان زھوقا
Neutral point. One party clearly doesn't understand the etiquettes of debate.
thanks for clarification brother these Najdis/Wobblers never change
All I notice throughout this debate was that Ustad Abdul Rahman was keep ignoring the question that was put forward to him and kept repeating himself. The basic thing he wasn't given up on was the differentiate between being alive physically and spiritually. Nor could he proof that Istikhasah is Shirk. after 2hr 30mins he had nothing else to say. All he was trying to do is to win the debate rather than learning the truth. Alhamdulillah, May Allah reward them both for holding this debate, it was beneficial for us and eye opener for a lot of Salafis.
Shaykh Asrar, manner and attitude is brilliant, I did not like Abdur attitude and cheeky remarks if he challenged Shaykh Asar years ago Shaykh would have left him hanging.
This debate should strengthen the imaan of the sahi ahle sunna well versed by Shaykh Asar.
how can anyone deny Shaykh Asrar winning? the guy made up 2 principles for itlstigaatha, Hayyun Qaadirun Alayhi and Hadir but never proved it from the Salaf therefore broke the contract which he wrote himself. hypocrisy as usual, ibn Taymiyyah isn't from the Salaf. his whole argument of the 3 conditions is not from the Salaf or the AhluSunnah as a whole?? why can't these wahabi's see this!!
3 principles*
It's always hard to give up your religious/group or even personal identity even if you know your way is not right!!! That's what happened to Shaytan and many non-believers throughout out time.
Sheikh Asrar very classy in how he carried himself.
In 5 daily prayers in each Salah it obligatory to read Surah Fatihah Verse 5: You Alone (Allah) we worship, and YOU 'ALONE' (ALLAH) WE ASK FOR HELP. This statement is clear and plain command from Allah and it His will (Allah Will) that believer's must submit to in full devotion and sincerely to seek help from Him only. How many times does Allah remind you in each Salah (seek help from Him Alone only) count, however most of Mankind are ever so quarrelsome and not grateful to Allah will, and so their hearts turn away from Him, not realising that they are being tested by trials that are decreed by His Will, and so Allah favours those who are patient and put their trust in Allah only, no matter if good or bad befalls him or hardships befall him, the believers know that it is a decree (Qadr) from Allah, just like the stories of the Prophets in the Holy Quran they were tested full of trials and endured hardships and they put their trust in Allah. Beware of Shaitan for he is the one who would put doubts into your hearts and that you may wonder blindly and so that you may do that not pleasing to Allah Will.
Ma'Sha'Allah haqq has spoken.
+Australia TH-cam Fitness is there something wrong with ninowy? please explain
Ihya-ul-Islam search on google: 'ninowy sunniport' and 'question about yahya ninowy sunniport'
are u a pakistaini
Yes, and it's the Quran and ahadith defeating philosophy/shirk
True. Abdul Rahman Hassan finished him.
May Allah preserve Shaykh Asrar Rashid
The format was not very good all the points on the table at once is ineffective it should be one point at a time and the other party should have to answer
Abdul Brahman looks a defeated man, Sheikh Asrar dismantled his defence. Extremely enlightening
+bilal h u have changed Allah SWT name
+abdullahibnzubair husn al-dhan brother, could be auto correction or he just misspelled it unaware of it.
Salam brothers I have found this video educational but I think we need to have more of these videos to clarify the biggest topic of can we ask russullulah for help I think both speakers conducted them selfs very well and they both need to come back and take more q/a on this topic to clarify their answers may Allah guide us all to the right path ameen
approx 44mins of footage is missing from the woblers side they have clearly edited and cut out bits to suit their needs. old dirty tactics of the najdis.
Exactly
these brothers are ridicules
He cut out the transitions between one debater to the other. He ended the debate as the debate ended.
from you title you day your true salafi but your words sound like your an uneducated fool
*say
+NajdiCutioner DeodandiCutioner what a stupid title shows which people are low
يزعم المسمون بالسلفية أن من طلب الشفاعة من النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يكون مشركا والرد عليهم مما رواه الإمام أحمد قال حدثنا عبد الصمد قال حدثنا محمد بن أبي المليح الهذلي قال حدثني زياد بن أبي المليح عن أبيه عن أبي بردة عن عوف بن مالك الأشجعي أنه كان مع النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في سفر فسار بهم يومهم أجمع لا يحل لهم عقدة وليلته جمعاء لا يحل عقدة إلا لصلاة حتى نزلوا أوسط الليل قال فرقب رجل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حين وضع رحله قال فانتهيت إليه فنظرت فلم أر أحدا إلا نائما ولا بعيرا إلا واضعا جرانه نائما قال فتطاولت فنظرت حيث وضع النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم رحله فلم أره في مكانه فخرجت أتخطى الرحال حتى خرجت إلى الناس ثم مضيت على وجهي في سواد الليل فسمعت جرسا فانتهيت إليه فإذا أنا بمعاذ بن جبل والأشعري فانتهيت إليهما فقلت أين رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فإذا هزيز كهزيز الرحا فقلت كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عند هذا الصوت قالا اقعد اسكت فمضى قليلا فأقبل حتى انتهى إلينا فقمنا إليه فقلنا يا رسول الله فزعنا إذ لم نرك واتبعنا أثرك فقال إنه أتاني آت من ربي عز وجل فخيرني بين أن يدخل نصف أمتي الجنة وبين الشفاعة فاخترت الشفاعة فقلنا نذكرك الله والصحبة إلا جعلتنا من أهل شفاعتك قال أنتم منهم ثم مضينا فيجيء الرجل والرجلان فيخبرهم بالذي أخبرنا به فيذكرونه الله والصحبة إلا جعلهم من أهل شفاعته فيقول فإنكم منهم حتى انتهى الناس فأضبوا عليه وقالوا اجعلنا منهم قال فإني أشهدكم أنها لمن مات من أمتي لا يشرك بالله شيئا
Subhan'Allah well done to shaykh Asrar Rashid. He gave excellent proofs. abdur rahman spent most of the debate either waffling on or attacking the person of Shaykh Asrar. He didn't answer many questions and as is typical Wahabi/salafi fashion he used texts/verses/hadiths applied to non Muslims and applied them upon Muslims to affirm his unproved statement of istighaha/ intercession as shirk.
May Allah (S) preserve Shaykh Asrar. Ameen.
true iman is when the heart can see
The evidence that shaykh brought forward were dismissed as weak by ustadh Abdur rehman, without explaining why it's weak.
Subhan'Allah ❤ haq never looses 😍
جاء في الحديث عن عثمان بن حنيف رضي اللـه عنه أن أعمىٰ أتىٰ إلى رسول اللـه فقال يا رسول اللـه ٱدع اللـه أن يكشف لي عن بصري قال أو أدعك قال يا رسول اللـه إنه قد شق علي ذهاب بصري قال فٱنطلق فتوضأ ثم صل ركعتين ثم قل اللـهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبيي محمد نبي الرحمة يا محمد إني أتوجه إلى ربي بك أن يكشف لي عن بصري اللـهم شفعه في وشفعني في نفسي فرجع وقد كشف اللـه عن بصره-حديث صحيح
اللـهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبيي محمد نبي الرحمة يا محمد إني أتوجه إلى ربي بك أن ينصر الإسلام والمسلمين اللـهم شفعه في وشفعني في نفسي
the whabbis were acting like abdur rehman hasan is the best thing after sliced bread...this guy got wasted
+rashad shahzad the mushrik grave worshippers were wasted. take your head out of the grave.
+jaggafeen obviously you didn't understand the debate lol. Your ugly ARH with his bent teeth got wasted
+Ibn Khairuddeen (ابن خير الدين الألباني) when someone calls you a grave worshipper there is not much left to say to them...the whabbis are known for their jungley wild attitude and bad manners...I was mearly speaking in a way they would understand.
Subhana'Allah. The difference between being called a "wahabbi" and being
called a "graveworshipper" is like night and day.
A "wahabbi" is a meaningless term as it attempts to refer to Muhammad
IBN Abd al-Wahhab (Muhammad, son of al-Wahhab). The sheikh's name was
Muhammad and his father's name was Abdul Wahhab. So anyone saying
"wahabbi" is uttering a meaningless term. Sheer stupidity to be honest
A "graveworshipper" is a term described to those who actually invoke the
inhabitants of the grave. So this term is clear in its description.
Stop calling upon the inhabitants of the grave and you shall stop being
called a "graveworshipper". Until then, you're a "graveworshipper
+Truth987ful actually calling you wahabbis is perfectly fine. in arabic adding a yaa mushadah at the end of an ism enables it to become an attribute.
now since you follow this individual who created your sect or addrd to it. we call you that. :)
Masha Allah Shaykh Asrar did him. The chairman should have forced Abdur Rahman Hassan to prove his 3 conditions.
+Jibril H Well how about the hadith when the man was away from the prophet may endless peace and blessings be upon him, and he did Wudhu prayed two nafl.
+Jibril H Salaam by the way :-). Ustadh Abdur Rahman Hassan also fails to understand the difference between mushrikeen of Quraysh and us. If he understood this and proved his conditions, which he didn't, then the debate would have ended. Surah Az Zumar v 39, they say , "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position.". This is where Ustadh Hassan has missed the point, it is a Hollow claim when they say we believe in Allah as the Lord with all power. They did not have Tawheed but would hide this disbelief under the guise of Waseela and Istigatha if you like.
They believed that Allah was the original creator but then their idols had their own independent realms. I would give you the mins in the video, but I tried to do that last time and failed, but I assure you Shaykh Asrars mentions it. If you ever watch it again keep an eye out for it. Shaykh Asrar I cant remember a single point he hasn't refuted, where ustadh Hassan with either knowingly play dumb, when he said I don't understand the question or purposefully refuse to answer. If you've studied even a little bit, you'll see the difference in the speakers. Shaykh Asrar debates on a higher level but the audience can miss this, but anyway nice talking to you :)
I'm pretty sure its authentic, Albani certification lol. Well if you pray Salah and you say Asalaamu alayka ayuhanbiyu, then you're doing istigatha without realising. aha but no in all seriousness I follow the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah, to believe the majority of the ummah are committing shirk is a bad opinion to have. The prophet may peace and blessings be upon him said, '' By Allah! I am not afraid that you will worship others along with Allah after my death''. (In Bukhari before you ask).
+Jibril H oh and genuinely the last point, it justtt came to me. Ustadh Hassan says very quickly its Saheeh, he said the Prophet may endless peace and blessings be upon him was alive though, that means the other 'two conditions' are not there. I.e. the man was told to say Ya Muhummad when he may peace and blessings be upon him was not physically there. That should be enough now? surely. May Allah Guide me and you to the straight path
Out of 4 Hours of lecture, Wahabi Guy didn't talk about topic even for 1 Hour. He keep brining all non related points . This topic is not to do with "Ashari and ideology " at all.
Can't understand how anyone can feel the Ustadh won this debate. Don't think he understands what a debate is.
He got schooled, no daleel just rhetoric. Prove the the 3 conditions from primary sources!
When their understanding was ill, they made those things ‘ibadah to other than Allah for their mere wordings. They charged Muslims with kufr for a matter upon the permissibility of which, the Salaf and Khalaf agreed. This is an evidence that they did not understand the meaning of the ‘ibadah mentioned in the Qur'an, according to the Arabic language rules. The linguists stated the meaning very clearly and without any ambiguity. Their definition of ‘ibadah as the ultimate humbleness was mentioned before. How did the negators of tawassul rule that asking for what it is not the habit to ask is shirk and made it a rule, when the Companion Rabi’ah Ibn Ka’b al-'Aslami asked the Messenger of Allah to be his companion in the Jannah. The Messenger did not object to him and out of humbleness said to him: Do you want any thing else? The Companion said: This is it. He said to him: perform a lot of sujud (Muslim).
I don't call to the messenger and I don't hold it permissible but Asrar Rashid showed great manners , and his points were unanswered by Abdurahman Hassan , although I believe the truth was with Abdurahman but he done a horrible job defending it, if roles were reversed asrar would of ended the debate in less than half hour.
brother it is permissible
+NajdiCutioner DeodandiCutioner
Perhaps it is but I'm not convinced it is , i was speaking from a neutral perspective and my point was asrar Rashid showed me that there is evidence and etiquettes of debate were good
Interesting debate, is like Ustaz Abdul Rahman did not debate but talk, without points and Shaykh Asrar really stay put, presented his case, defended it and ask questions which non was answered. The lesson I took from the debate is - Shaykh Asrar was saying, the prophet was interceding for the believers while alive and it never end and Abdul Rahman couldn't establish a fact that it is shirk, bid'a or evidence it is no more permissible.
Clearly, you didn't watch the debate.
Mustafa ameen
I don't know why no ones picked up and pointed out how and why the rest of the guys are doing 'taqleed' of Ustad Abdurrahman. they should have done their "own" research.
Abdul Qadir Aljeelaani! jeelani is actually Arabic it stems from the Farsi word geelaani, you can also say Jeeli. it's like saying AlBakistan for Pakistan. those who know Arabic would understand.
Why is brother Tamiyah keep smiling, it's like his got the giggles this is so manipulating & certainly not professional.
isn't it sunnah to smile? why are you being so negative against a positve brother?
+Shabir Ali lol. There is a difference between smiling and laughing when someone is talking simply to put the other person of, know the difference. Barak Allah.
Saira Aki can you please point me towards the exact moment he is laughing to put the other person off? Jazakala Khair.
Yes that was very rude. Salafis lack in manners.
Saira Aki i'm still waiting...
May Allah bless ustadh abdur rahman.
ALLLAH HU AKBAR! The truth always prevails, Our beloved Shaykh Asrar presented CLEAR CUT evidences from primary sources where as Abdul Rehman was having a battle with himself and his books in scrapping trying to present his evidences as primary. Also he failed to show how the chains of narration were 'weak' he kept saying it but failing to prove it, he had had enough he wanted no more! beautiful gesture too from our Beloved Shaykh to present a gift! Shaykh is a great example of how we as the Ahle Sunnah W'al jammat go about things. May ALLAH sbt continue to shower blessings on our Beloved Shaykh Ameen!
subhan Allah at the end brothers where saying allahuakbar and the others brothers agree say ya rasool that just clarified all for me , well done abdul rehman ma sha Allah you last 4 minutes summons it all allahhu Akbar
4:49:24 Someone should ask Ustadh Abdur Rahman to clarify on this issue. AlhamdulILLAH, he's changed his position on istigatha, if he ponders upon his own view and this valid point asked by the brother, it should help him come towards clarity, inshaALLAH.
Masha'Allah this debate distinguished the true students of knowledge from the people of rhetoric.
Sh Asrar remained principled throughout, spoke calmly and did not resort to any low blows.
The same cannot be said for Ustadh Abdurahman however who relied upon rhetoric, emotive speech and could not even adhere to his own preconditions. His consistent nitpicking on Sh Asrar's pronunciation testified to this.
Sh Asrar's arguments were consistent and relevant. Ustadh Abdurahman struggled to even understand the points raised, applying false dichotomies onto the other side's arguments. Sh Asrar pointed this out on many occasions.
It was clear that Ustadh Abdurahman (as well as salafis in general) lack basic usooli principles. They strengthen and weaken ahadeeth as and when it suits them. They mix and match principles at their whim. Sh Asrar showed how his opponent even opposed his own salafi scholars at times, strangely declaring ahadeeth weak and fabricated despite proof.
SubhanAllah
Shaykh Asrar defended the belief of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah and completely dismantled the Ahlul Bid'ah.
MashaAllah
May Allah protect us from the beliefs of the Ahlul Bid'ah
The Ustadh was shaking with nervous tension. No daleel just rhetoric. Asrar Rashid smashed it.
The Ustadh has to provide daleel from primary sources for his 3 conditions. He can't, so he just shouts the same rhetoric. He lost in every way.
Abdur Rahman Hasan claims:
"Allah تعالى can create such power - for the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم to assist his Ummah after passing away." [Sughra]
"To believe that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم can assist his Ummah after passing away is - to make the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم a partner to Allah تعالى." [Kubra]
Conclusion of his above two propositions [dropping Hadd-i-Awsat]:
"Allah تعالى can create such power - to make the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم a partner to Allah تعالى." [Nateeja]
The Flawed Conclusion is logically impossible [Muhaal]
Wow sunni always wins
I would like to thank both individuals for taking such a time to debate about this manner. You can clearly see that there are differences in both parties. Abdul Rahman did a great job and Asrar Rashid also did a great job. But I would like something to clear out. This debate should been only weighted by arguments. It should not be weighted at how the individual is speaking to the public to persuade or how they emotionally can touch the public. The public that is watching should have a logic understanding about the arguments that are weighted the most. There is a big difference in both individuals who are debating to each other. Abdul Rahman was mostly preaching to the public to persuade and using soft and nice words to emotionally touch them. Asrar Rashid was not doing this most of the time. When it was his turn he summmarised the points that need to discussed so both parties won't go off the subject. I really like that Asras Rashid is using a logical term of the definition shirk. Shirk should be always shirk. This has to be with every definition. Therefor Abdul Rahman has a loud and nice voice which he uses to debate, but as I already mentioned this debate should only be weighted about arguments and not how the individual is persuading the public i.e. using nice words etc. In de first two hours of the debate Abdul Rahman is commonly adressing Asrar Rashid about the term asharia's which I personally find it annoying because it was going off the subject of the debate. But besides that I think both parties did a great job, you can clearly see who has the most experience. As for the one who is watching this. DO NOT GET PERSUADED BY NICE AND LOVELY WORDS! Only weight the arguments in your conclusion. A debate like this should always be herrschaftsfreie kommunikation (please google for more info).
What Abdul Rahman did is quote from his shayookh without naming them. None of his definitions are either from Quarn Sunnah o from the salaf
welcome ahle sunnat owal jamat.
who of the salaf defined calling on someone as worship. as far as I know the definitions of worship made by the great linguistic scholar raghib al asfahani was far from that
My uncle sheikh asrar rashid is the Sunni
I'LL LIKE TO PUT OUT A QUESTION!!!
If someone went to the grave of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and asks help from him, but in his heart he knows that the Prophet of Allah can only help him with the permission of Allah. If he does this action with this intention that only benefit and harm comes from Allah, is this shirk or not?
NO
Shaikh Asrar Rashid has spoken the truth and provided evidence to support his claim.
4:26:36 debate OVER
From what was said, it is known that the calamity of those who accuse the performers of tawassul and istighathah by the anbiya' and awliya' after their death and in their absence while alive is their ill-understanding of the ayat and Ahadith which they use to support their view. They thought that the meaning of ‘ibadah is the nida' (calling someone), isti’anah (seeking help), khawf (fear), raja' (hope), and istighathah (seeking help). This, in their thinking, is the ‘ibadah that whoever directs it to other than Allah would become mushrik (person who commits shirk). They also thought that whoever asks other than Allah for things which are not habitually asked becomes mushrik. How was it justifiable to them to do that when it was confirmed that al-Harth Ibn Hassan al-Bakri, radiyallahu ‘anh, said: I ask refuge with Allah and His Messenger from being like the envoy of ‘Ad. This is the Mashhur Hadith [Al-Mashhur is a Hadith related by more than two persons. It can be sahih or otherwise.] that Imam Ahmad related in his "Musnad", and Hafiz Ibn Hajar said that it is a hasan Hadith. The evidence in it is that the Messenger did not say to al-Harth: You committed shirk for having said: and His Messenger, since you asked refuge with me! It was also confirmed that Ibn ‘Abbas related that the Prophet, sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, said: Allah has angels, other than the Hafazah (angels who record man's deeds) who roam (on Earth) writing what fall of tree leaves. If any of you fell in a calamity in a desert let him call: O slaves of Allah help. Hafiz Ibn Hajar related it in "al-'Amali" and said that it is a hasan Hadith.
حدّثنا أبو النُعمانِ حدثنا سعيدُ بنُ زيدٍ ، حدثنا عَمْرُو بنُ مالكٍ النكريُّ ، حدثنا أبو الجوزاء أوسُ بنُ عبدِ اللَّهِ ،، قال: قحطَ أهل المدينة قَحْطاً شديداً، فشَكَوْا إلى عائشةَ فقالَتْ: انظُروا قبرَ النبيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلّم فاجعلُوا منه كواً إلى السماءِ، حتى لا يكون بَيْنَهُ وبينَ السماءِ سقْفٌ، قال: فَفَعَلُوا فمطِرْنا مطراً حتى نَبَتَ العشبُ، وسَمِنَتِ الإبِلُ حتى تَفَتَّقَتْ من الشحمِ، فسُمِّيَ عامَ الفتقِ.-رواه الدارمي
قال الرازي في "التعديل والتجريح" سعيد بن زيد أبو الحسن أبو عبدالله سعيد بن زيد أخو حماد ابن زيد أبو الحسن قال أبو عبد الله: أخرج البخاري عنه في الجامع. قال البخاري: حدثنا مسلم حدثنا سعيد ابن زيد: أبو الحسن صدوق، حافظ، أخو حماد ابن زيد،
قال المزي في تهذيب الكمال وقال عَبّاس الدّوري ، عن يحيـى بن معين: ثقة .
استشهد به البُخاري ، وروى له في «الأدب» وغيرِه. وروى له الباقون سوى النّسائيّ
قال العجلي في ثقاته سعيد بن زيد بصري سعيد بن زيد، ثقة،
عمرو بن مالك النكري ذكره ابن حبان في الثقات
قال في "الكاشف" عمرو بن مالك النكري عن أبي الجوزاء وغيره وعنه ابنه يحيى وعباد بن عباد وجماعة وثق
مُحَمَّدُ بنُ الفَضْل السَّدُوْسِي ، أبو النُّعْمَان البَصْرِي المعروف بـعَارِم
قال في تهذيب التهذيب قال الذهلي: ثنا عارم، وكان بعيداً من العرامة.
وقال ابن وارة: ثنا عارم بن الفضل الصدوق المأمون.
وقال ابن أبـي حاتم عن أبـيه: إذا حدثك فاختم عليه، وعارم لا يتأخر عن عفان، وكان سليمان بن حرب يقدم عارماً على نفسه، إذا خالفه عارم رجع إليه، وهو أثبت أصحاب حماد بن زيد بعد ابن مهدي. قال: وسئل أبـي عن عارم وأبـي سلمة، فقال: عارم أحب إلي. قال: وسئل أبـي عنه، فقال: ثقة،
قال الدارقطني: تغير بآخره، وما ظهر له بعد اختلاطه حديث منكر وهو ثقة.
ابو الجوزاءأوس بن عبد الله
قال الرازي في التعديل والتجريح أوس بن عبد الله أبو الجوزاء البصري الربعي أخرج البخاري عن أبي الأشهب جعفر ابن حيان عنه عن ابن عباس في تفسير سورة النجم قال أبو حاتم الرازي: هو ثقة
iThroughout the discussion shaikh Abdur rehman failed to provide the 3 conditions(alive, present & ability) of istgatha from the ealiest 3 generations. this proves his claims were false & made up.
I watched the entire debate. Being a neutral, and not owing to any group, my honest opinion is the guy white dress made more sense.
Everything is by the will of ALLAH including any help that reaches you through WHATEVER it may be. The salafi brothers are on level 1 spiritually until they truely love the Prophet pbuh.
+Faizal Abubaker The signs of ugliness in you is the message you just sent to me without any respect or gentleness. what attributes of the Prophet pbuh do you really follow?
i live in a area highly populated by salafis and I can differentiate between which group is like how? i cant remember the last time i went to a grave and yet you say grave worshipers. we need to talk in a neutral good manner and be able to accept the fact that some knowledge and wisdom still hasnt reached certain people yet, we have to allow those who are still learning. by the sound of your tone MASHA'ALLAH akhi very good very nice ISLAM of yours you have there. my Islam is about love, compassion, gentle, kind, mercy over everything. patience etc.
salaam
+Faizal Abubaker You following the prophet pbuh should make me automatically want to follow you. I guess we both lack in following him TRUELY. We need to reflect upon our own hearts.
Following the Prophet Pbuh TRUELY would make you into a Beloved of ALLAH a SAINT WaliULLAH. They are like magnets the earth and everything loves them.
We both need amending in our character and then come back to studying learning more of a deeper subject/topic which is best to learn analyse once our minds hearts are neutral and good.
What I said in my msg above was a metaphoric explanation. The salafis don't and will not understand certain things but they other people like sheikh Asrar will understand both views from two perspective. It's difficult to explain because you aren't on the levels yet :) #Jokes
+Faizal Abubaker When ALLAH loves his servant HE announces it to the heavens and even angels. Beyond your capability to understand brother... You are too narrow minded brother.. dont shut the door of learning from one another...You be looking for facts when the reality is everything came to us through the means of PEOPLE ANGELS etc. narrow minded
we are the brothers not wearing hats?
After watching the debate I think Sheikh Asrar delayed his evidences to the last minute. I dont understand why. There was no strenous debate over analysing hadith evidences. There was hardly any debate over Tawhid Al Rububiyah from sheikh Asrars side until the end. And Abdur Rahman spent most of the debate emphasising correcting the pronounciation of names, and speaking 100mph that no layman like me would understand. I have seen many debates and I must say Sheikh Asrar was laid back on Abdur Rahman, he could've really digged in to him but I don't understand why it wasn't done. I don't know why he wasn't refuted on so many points which have been refuted many times over in Urdu debates. This debate for the enhlish layman is inconclusive in my opinion and Abdur Rahman was spared hard facts. Wallahu Aalam wa Rasulhu Aalam azza wa jal wa sallalaahu alaihi wa sallam
these are people who the Holy Prophet saw said towards the end of times will use weak hadith arguments. these are the people who read quran but it doesn't go below their necks
they wont understand the quran
Can someone tell me how Ashária and Sunni are same.
how can one not go the means if Allah leaft us with the means in this world but I believe all the awliya saliheen believe that Allah is curer butt all so the means are there two the prophet has been given certain abilties to supplicate for the ummah to Allah so again salafi brothers think a gain
What would be shirk is when one asks a creation to do what Allah is the only One Who does, such as asking some one to create a thing, i.e., bring it from non-existence into existence, and to ask him for forgiveness of sins. Fatir, 3 means: Is there any Creator other than Allah (i.e., no one is the Creator except Allah). Ayah 135 of Al ‘Imran means: Who forgives the sins except Allah (i.e., no one forgives the sins except Allah). In Maryam, 19 it is mentioned that Jibril said to Maryam: (I was sent by Allah) to give you a pure boy. Actually, the giver of the boy, who is ‘Isa, to Maryam is Allah, but Allah made Jibril a means and Jibril attributed the giving to himself. Jibril's case shows the excessive deviation of those who accuse of kufr the performers of tawassul and istighathah, just because they said: O Messenger of Allah I have no way out, O Messenger of Allah help me, and the like of these statements, which they say and do not mean by them that the Messenger of Allah creates, or deserves the ‘ibadah, which is the ultimate humbleness. They mean that he is a wasitah, i.e., a means to obtain the intended matter and blessing from Allah. They do not understand from the wasitah except the meaning of having a means even if they call it wasitah. Allah made it the norm to relate the effects with the means. Allah had the power to give Maryam that pure boy without having Jibril as a means for that. How did they justify charging Muslims with kufr for the mere saying of: The nabi or the wali is a wasitah, meaning a means. The shirk is to confirm the wasitah, i.e., say that there is something which helps Allah or that Allah cannot do that thing independently except through the nabi or the wali. This is the shirk, if they [the Taymiun] would just understand.
he just stood there and preached and his herd without references will just absorb blindly ... oh my
who ever said sheikh asrar got schooled needs to get their head checked
where does one begin, considering who the parties are and what they stand for the Adaab of speakers was very good possibly Asrar was more profesional and held better decorum and though Abdur Rahman is over zealous I couldn't help feel his enmity surfaced throughout. so adab goes to brelvis
in terms of presenting an argument it's difficult even for a neutral person to determine who was stronger, at times Abdur Rahman won rounds and at times Asrar countered and came back with some pertinent points. possibly Abdur Rahman won on bringing a better case.
I couldn't help notice at times abu taymiyyah buried in his cell phone and then rushing to Abdur Rahman as though SMS were being sent in from within their camp, that begs the question how many people was Asrar debating.
in deen whatever has a grey area and is not absolute maybe for safety and less harm for ummah one should abstain. in the end the irony of talking about نفع was that for all those tuning in leave with out any. such matters should be left at bay and Allah guide those who wish to resurrect these matters that are divisive by nature.
Spare me a moment......both agree that one is NOT sinful if you DONT do Isthigaatha on the deceased. Lets go with what is clear and unequivocal "...you alone we worship and you alone we ask for HELP"
A useless debate if you ask me, one which has been debated for hundreds of years. These Shuyook should spend their time debating about more pressing matters which are affecting the Ummah in this millennium
mashallah shaikh asrar u r truly amazing, clinical and articulate...top lad. keep it up
Wahhabi deviant vehemently argues that the Beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is dead, unaware and incapable of helping and giving benefit.
Sunni rightly upholds that he صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is alive, gifted by Allah تعالى with knowledge of the unseen, power to assist and distribute blessings.
Allah تعالى states,
ذٰلِكَ فَضْلُ اللّٰهِ یُؤْتِیْهِ مَنْ یَّشَآءُ١ؕ وَ اللّٰهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِیْم ِ
"This is the grace of Allah, He grants it to whomsoever He wishes; and Allah is the Owner of immense grace."
[Qur'an-e-Kareem, 62:4]
Wahabis have lost and suffered a grear defeat. Let me simply summarise that Abdul Rahman stance was to prove Istigaatha was Shirk and Kufr however he failed to prove it and if he did prove it then can someone inform me regards to it.
The Quranic ayahs which are presented to refute Istigaatha are in reality referring to Idols not Prophets or Pious people who have passed away and are presented out of context.
so Shaykh Asrar wins the debate. I hope people are guided to the subject of Istigaatha being permissible and its not Shirk to use it as long as you believe Allah as being the ultimate helper.
Please answer these questions. Do you
1. Say "ya Muhammad (pbuh) maddad"
2. Say "ya Nuh (pbuh) maddad"
3. Say "ya Musa (pbuh) maddad"
4. Say "ya Isa (pbuh) maddad"
5. Say "ya Abdul Qadir Jilani maddad"
Here he goes again. Are you having difficulty in understanding things???
Answer the question, pleace
+Faizal Abubaker I have already answered this question of yours. open up your mind to the truth.
+Faizal Abubaker Give a lecture and don't prove from written evidence.
Bring books to the debate for show.
Don't answer questions and use secondary sources, violate the conditions, claim victory then go for a meal with his chums.
poor manners from abdul-rahman hassan
Ustad abdur rehman failed miserably to prove y it is not shirk to do istigatha in duniya and akhirah and hiw it becomes shirk when same is done in barzakhi life.
Ustadh abdur rahman can take istigatha from his scholars to answer this if he can.
Seriously salafi brothers will have to get someone very strong to debate the likes of asrar rashid.
Jazakhallah
Among such incidents is what Hafiz Abu Bakr al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, about whom it was said: The writers of the books of Hadith dirayatan [Dirayatan means knowing about the related Hadith and its relator in the context of accepting or rejecting it.] are in need of him, said: Qadi Abu Muhammad al-Hasan Ibn al-Husayn Ibn Muhammad Ibn Ramin al-'Istarbathi told us; he said: Ahmad Ibn Ja’far Ibn Hamdan al-Qati’i told us; he said: I heard al-Hasan Ibn Ibrahim, Abu ‘Ali al-Khallal say: Any time I had a problem, I went to the grave of Musa Ibn Ja’far and performed the tawassul by him; Allah made what I liked easy for me. Isma’il Ibn Ahmad al-Hiri told us; he said: Muhammad Ibn al-Husayn as-Salami told us; he said: I heard Abul-Hasan Ibn Maqsam say: I heard Abu ‘Ali as-Saffar say: I heard Ibrahim al-Harbi say: The grave of Ma’ruf is the tested antidote. Abu Ishaq Ibrahim Ibn ‘Umar al-Barmaki told me; he said: Abul-Fadl ‘Ubaydullah Ibn ‘Abd-ir-Rahman Ibn Muhammad az-Zuhri told us; he said: I heard my father say: The grave of Ma’ruf is tested for the fulfillment of needs. Whoever said there : "Qul Huwallahu Ahad" one-hundred times and asked Allah, Ta’ala, what he wanted, Allah would fulfil his need. Abu ‘Abdillah Muhammad Ibn ‘Ali Ibn ‘Abdillah as-Suwari told us; he said: I heard Abul-Husayn Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Jami’ say: I heard Abu ‘Abdillah Ibn al-Mahamili say: I have known the grave of Ma’ruf al-Kurakhi for seventy years. Allah will relieve the distress of any person who comes to it.
Ashraf Ali you are wrong my dear brother. you must follow the opinion of the majority of scholars. This is simple fiqg
Shaykh Asrar has finished the matter.
The Najdi had no answers except for a few.
Shaykh Asrar Rashid Sahib Addressed all his point
I don't know which debate you were watching but honestly there was no comparison, In terms of intellect, knowledge and proofs provided, Abdur Rahman was far superior. I think you need to watch these debates with an open mind. Ones calling to worshipping Allah alone and the other is saying use an intermediary??? If you read the book of Allah this is what Allah asks of us...
+shiraz raja far superior
my brother clean your ears.
Shaykh Asrar answered all Questions.
your Ustaad was clueless.
he at one point couldn't understand simple Questions eg
if one says that a act such as shirk is haram is this kufr?
your Shaykh was lost as he new he has been.
trapped by his own words.
he should think before he speaks
+shiraz raja asrar compeltly schooled him and im not even pro isthgather im not a barelwi but honesty is honesty he comeple
tly schooled him arh shouldnt do debates even his last points were comeplty blasted by asrar in the q/a
+1ummah MaSha Allah
that's the truthful
+shiraz raja - The Shaikh spoke in a language that the layman doesn't understand. Anyone with knowledge and education will understand the Shaikh. AR spoke in layman terms hence why the laymen believes AR won the argument. AR breached his own contract by using secondary sources. Top marks to Shaikh who exposed AR.
In the previous contract signing video (uploaded by naseeah sessions) before this debate took place I've commented that first party will break the rules because they always do and in this video they've done that on numerous times even till last question which was being answered by Asrar.
MashaAllah - the chair is the best brother..
سُبْحَان الله may الله subhanahu wata'ala bless shaykh Asrar and enlighten the truth upon the misguided masses. Shaykh Asrar absolutely destroyed the najdiya movement anyone with a right frame of mind would acknowledge that shaykh Asrar technically and blatantly destroyed the najdiya movement.
Syaikh Asrar Rashid Spoke more tartib (according ushul) and strong arguments. ustadz Abdurahman Spoke normatif but never touch the lowest argument level, and just like orator. We follow sunni.
Shaykh asrar has provided so much of evidence and if people do not understand then they need to learn from Shaykh Asrar....
any australians in the comments section?
One Question to the Wahabis
If lets say Allah did allow intercession as the Sunnis say, do you really think he wouldnt still disagree with the fact that humans are using *IDOLS*
Of course Allah would condemn it since the Quraysh were *worshipping* the Idols
We never claimed that we worship the Prophet
Bunch of confused individuals
You never claim to worship him or the Imams and yet you make Du'a to them which only the right of Allah. You saying others people are confused? Clean under your own bed first mate.
+A Traveller In Dunya please define Dua from the Quran
The Wahabi's are deleting the messages posted in their posted video. I would like to see the faces of the rejectors on the day of Judgement when the Prophets (AS) will tell all to go an SEEK HELP FROM THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SWS), the Most Beloved of Allah (SWT), an the salafiyat AKA known as Iblisiyat saying call only to Allah (SWT). Sh Asrar Allah bless you for defending the Ahl-e-Sunnah, my only critique is you were too polite. They had no defence but were simply preaching... Should have presented the hadith of the Khwarijis miscontextualising Quranic verses etc.
yeah they have hidden the comments and deleted many of my comments i used to be salfi before this debate i cant belive i used to think they were upon the haq
Allah is with the Haq!, they put the video up before us yet we have thousands of more views. Alhamdulillah
From the ilm point of view. Abdul Rahman got parred and finished.
1st Amazing Team Asrar
"so.. there is person committing shirk and worshipping an idol, and a muslim walks up and openly says that this person is committing haram but it's not kufr. has this person (one claiming to be muslim) left the folds of Islam?"
gotta give one thing to wobbs they sure can recite verses at the speed of light.
SubhanAllah with the Will of Allah swt victory for the Ahle sunnah...well done sheikh Asrar i pray people get true understanding of Ahle sunnah clearly ustad rahman should accept he lost this... Madad YarasoolAllah saw amazing we can call out to our beloved Prophet saw
We can clearly see in the debate the so called moderator continually in the entire debate was talking to Asrar Rashid that shows that was unfair and against the ethics of a debate.
Seeking help is of two types
1. With worldly Means : its allowed for you to ask anyone to help you and you can help others
2. Without worldly Means : its forbidden / shirk to call anyone beside Allah.
I think there is no need to specifically mention that debate is about calling Nabi(s.a.w) without worldly means otherwise this wouldn't made any sense or you know it yourselves that you cannot prove it.
Matter is so crystal clear in the Quran please read it yourselves.
Mushriks has no value for literal text of Quran and Hadeeth because they know it goes against them most of the time if they find something which they can twist and turn and then use it in their favor then standards are changed have invented so many tactics and terminology to neutralize clear cut ayat of Quran which most of the time goes against their false beleives.
They have just learn not to keep stone idol in front of them they only consider this to be shirk they haven't reached that state of Eman to worship Allah Alone.
6:56 Say, "Indeed, I have been forbidden to worship those you invoke besides Allah ." Say, "I will not follow your desires, for I would then have gone astray, and I would not be of the [rightly] guided."
7:194 Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful.
17:57 Those whom they invoke seek means of access to their Lord, [striving as to] which of them would be nearest, and they hope for His mercy and fear His punishment. Indeed, the punishment of your Lord is ever feared.
34:22 Say, [O Muhammad], "Invoke those you claim [as deities] besides Allah ." They do not possess an atom's weight [of ability] in the heavens or on the earth, and they do not have therein any partnership [with Him], nor is there for Him from among them any assistant.
40:65 He is the Ever-Living; there is no deity except Him, so call upon Him, [being] sincere to Him in religion. [All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds.
22:73 O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued.
Take this into consideration that people were calling prophets of old time pious people general rules is mentioned in Quran without any exception.
Subhan Allah
Shaykh Asrar totally writ off Abdi.