This is the essay i always wanted to make. I love the citizen Abel games, thank you for talking about them; i wanted to play Quadrilateral Cowboy for a long time, i think i finally will right now. On a sidenote, there's another game that uses the jumpcut technique in a similar way, it's called Virginia. It has some great moments, though its pacing is often pretty slow and the ending looks a bit rushed imho. Give it a chance, it's just two hours long.
Woooow, Gammerlier. At the beginning of this vid I was gonna just comment how i thought you were gonna nitpick. But now that ive reached the end (and liked the video) I understand completely. Your own editing style, of reslly wanted to expemplify this point of this underraged game(s) that get their point so well cleared. And having your thoughts start the video from ridiculous goofball critisism (with yelling, bits, silly voices) to a genuine passion for a game that made you feel everything it wanted you to feel in suchba shoort smount of time. Bravo, Vince...
I was a fan of Quadrilateral Cowboy for a long time, thanks for inclining me to try their other games. A guy like you will definitely touch on Cosmo D classics like Off-Peak, Norwood Suite, and god damn Betrayal at Club Low
You hit the nail on the head at 2:00 with FF7s cat quest. It (and also that whole section) ended the FF7 remake for me. One evening I happened to stop playing around that spot, and afterwards whenever I thought about continuing, it was always "Ah, I'll run around the slums for another 30 minutes". There might be better things waiting in the later parts of the game, but it's often a giant waste of time. And free, uninterrupted time is really precious.
Yeah said it. I probably would have loved FF7 Remake if I was a teenager with unlimited time, but as an adult with precious little time for gaming, I can’t be bothered to waste it. The reviews for Rebirth that talk about open world bloat makes me sad, because I’m probably not going to play it at all
@@thegammelier Agreed, same here. And it's especially baffling with the FF7 remakes, since the original *is* more condensed, in that the Midgar section takes ~6 hours. But they split the remake into 3 separate games, and fill each of them with bloat. It makes me sigh. I understand, from a devevelopment perspective the "bloat" is easier / cheaper to produce than main story setpieces, so it's a financial consideration. Still it would be cool if, after all remake parts are released, they'd make a "Mom & Dad Edition" that's all cherry-picked. :D
(dis)honourable mention to rpgs who take 48 hours to maybe tell a good story while showcasing the worst storytelling possible. say what you will about until dawn but at least it's not a text box spam.
Text box spam used to be the only way to get that much story data into a game. And is still the only way for small developers to afford to tell almost any larger story at all. But yeah, a lot of RPGs are very, very bloated. At least these days they almost never make you run around in circles to fight random battles to grind for XP and money so you can grind against more difficult random battles... Progress.
@@swan-cloud i mean... not really there are ways you can make a good 40 hour story, jrpgs as a genre would not exist otherwise, also most games that length are liks 2/3 gameplay, you just tend to notice the story more
I actually paused the video and played gravity bone. And dang I LOVED IT. I wish I hadn't seen the quadrilateral cowboy section and stopped being lazy and actually experienced the game myself cuz damn son, I felt emotions just by watching the ending section through your lens. Why can't more games feature this quality of storytelling? (rhetorical question. I think I know the answer i.e. fill games with as much bloat as possible to artificially increase its length to justify the $70 price tag) P.S. What do I get for finishing my homework?
I think games have bloated storytelling because the writers/directors just don't know how to edit themselves, really. Writing is rewriting, after all, you have to be able to look at what you're working on and go "oh, this doesn't work, rip it out" but that also take *time* which a lot of dev cycles don't have the luxury of. I think the Yakuza games would benefit greatly from another year of development, just to cut down on all the bloat, but they're cranked out so fast that's not an option. Thanks for doing your homework, your reward is the memories you made along the way! Not good enough...? Hang on, I gotta gold star around here somewhere...
@@thegammelier Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And that's a very valid summary of why writing in mainstream games is generally so bad. For my reward, can I make a request for a future video? (pls do Outer Wilds. I'd love your take on it)
First off, I'd like to say that "The Gamellier," is one of the best channel names I've ever seen. It certainly describes what it is you're trying to accomplish here. Besides that, this video was truly amazing. I've always been annoyed by the fact that so many games drone on for far too long in exposition and story-telling. I've gotten so used to it, that I came to accept that as just the way video games are, and that sometimes long, drawn out cutscenes are needed because it's simply a different medium. You've shown me that this necessarily isn't the case. Personally, I love Until Dawn, because of how stupid it is, but I can see why you think it is a waste of time when comparing it to something like Gravity Bone. I agree with your line of thinking though, there has to be a better way. Gamers shouldn't accept mediocrity. There are some games however, that I feel aren't soured by the integrated story. Resident Evil, I think, is a great example of story being intertwined with gameplay. Especially since it's a survival horror, the cutscenes let you breathe a little in-between the different sections of the game. There are also plenty of instances where the in-game notes contain clues to help you solve the puzzles in order to progress, which give them a purpose rather than being just more fluff. What I do despise however are so-called "story-driven" games that are so bogged down and bloated with unimportant nonsense, that it makes the game not fun anymore and in some instances detracts from its overall message. Anyways, awesome video! Keep up the great work! 👍
I looooove Resident Evil, especially the REmakes but those all utilize very effective storytelling. Cutscenes are only as long as they need to be and almost all of them move the story forward. Until Dawn *feels* like a waste of time in comparison. Thanks for the view and the kind words, it means a lot
Maybe until dawn devs were trying to "justify" the AAA price tag by dragging it along like they did. If it was only movie-length , boy, there woulda been riots. Not saying 2 hour games are bad, it just needs indie level price tags associated with it. But yeah, I can totally see and think to myself "yeah, THAT scene coulda been cut, that one coulda been shortened"
I don’t care if it’s longer than a movie but it should still adhere to some screenwriting standards of pacing, reveals, charges, etc. I played 200 hours of the Witcher 3 and felt like every bit of dialogue was purposeful
I think one of the great things about games as a storytelling medium is that they can allow the player to dictate how much extraneous or supplemental information they get. One of my complaints about Doom 2016 is that while the Doom Slayer might get to cut exposition short, the player does not. For a particularly interesting example, Disco Elysium has lore dumps locked behind passive skill checks. If you pump points into the relevant skills, you'll get a bunch of exposition. If you don't, you don't. A much simpler and more common model is to give the player text and/or audio documents which they can choose whether to read/listen to. I think one of my personal favorites is Möbius Front 83 containing PDFs of actual government published documents about contemporary warfare which inspired the game's mechanics. I think one point of contention I have with the video though is the idea of comparing video game runtime directly to movie runtime. Player control just makes stuff inherently more engaging, even if it's as simple as walking down a fixed path, so games can get away with drawing things out more. Though I do think Until Dawn overdoes it. I also think there is a serious problem with conflating time to complete and value, and consequently developers padding out games to satisfy consumer demand for "more" game. Speaking of Until Dawn, it probably triples down on explaining the butterfly effect thing in order to get the player to swallow the lie. The game has some flags which trigger later events or outcomes, but events always play out mostly the same. So there is a reason for it, just not a satisfying reason.
I mean, you just named dropped an obscure Zachtronics game, so I'm gonna have to give it to you. I'm talking more about game narratives where lore dumps are unavoidable, so the Disco Elysium example is really good. It lets the player decide how much they want to engage with it, but also takes care that both the critical and non-critical stuff are equally great. I go into this a bunch in my GoW video, but if the main game narrative is counting on a completionist approach to make sense (or be considered "good") then that's a problem Thanks for watching!
Non-economic story telling is my single biggest complaint about most modern games and I'm so glad to see a video like this that examines it so well. Interestingly, Uncharted is usually the series I bring up when talking about this issue, as every game feels like an Indiana Jones rip-off that's covering the same amount of content as an Indiana Jones movie but somehow taking 5 times as long to do it. I could go on and on about that, but I'm excited to see what the Uncharted 4 video you mentioned will look like! I imagine I'll gain a new appreciation from that.
Oh, you will...you better believe you will--! Or not. I doubt I'll say much that you haven't heard before, I'm just going to go on and on about how well it nails every single aspect of holistic storytelling
look I tryed to play gravity bone but its steam download gave me an error and after downloading of itch it wouldn't launch, and I don't think I have the technical chops to figure out why. edit: after further inspection closing and reopening steam solved the problem (10/10 game)
I took the title too literally, but I still need to get it off my chest.. I'm playing Guardians of the Galaxy right now, and goddammit could the guys shut it with their pubescent bickering *FOR ONE MINUTE* please
I have not, I’ll have to check that one out it looks interesting, and I have a soft spot for Peter B, but maybe that’s my Jake Johnson/New Girl love showing
![Warhammer 40k: Space Marine 2 | เพื่อจักรพรรดิ ! [ตอนเดียวจบ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4M0ckYMA4-U/mqdefault.jpg)
Quadrilateral cowboy was such a great experience, loved it to bits
Can't wait for Skin Deep (assume it's still coming)
This is the essay i always wanted to make. I love the citizen Abel games, thank you for talking about them; i wanted to play Quadrilateral Cowboy for a long time, i think i finally will right now.
On a sidenote, there's another game that uses the jumpcut technique in a similar way, it's called Virginia. It has some great moments, though its pacing is often pretty slow and the ending looks a bit rushed imho. Give it a chance, it's just two hours long.
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll have to check that one out! Paratopic’s supposed to do that, too, I just haven’t played it yet
Thank you for the upload, keep it up!
Woooow, Gammerlier. At the beginning of this vid I was gonna just comment how i thought you were gonna nitpick. But now that ive reached the end (and liked the video) I understand completely.
Your own editing style, of reslly wanted to expemplify this point of this underraged game(s) that get their point so well cleared. And having your thoughts start the video from ridiculous goofball critisism (with yelling, bits, silly voices) to a genuine passion for a game that made you feel everything it wanted you to feel in suchba shoort smount of time.
Bravo, Vince...
Funny thing is, I didn’t do that intentionally but when you point it out, yeah, that’s what happened.
Bravo, Vince, indeed!
@@thegammelier it was the principals of storytelling in my eyes
I was a fan of Quadrilateral Cowboy for a long time, thanks for inclining me to try their other games. A guy like you will definitely touch on Cosmo D classics like Off-Peak, Norwood Suite, and god damn Betrayal at Club Low
You hit the nail on the head at 2:00 with FF7s cat quest. It (and also that whole section) ended the FF7 remake for me. One evening I happened to stop playing around that spot, and afterwards whenever I thought about continuing, it was always "Ah, I'll run around the slums for another 30 minutes". There might be better things waiting in the later parts of the game, but it's often a giant waste of time. And free, uninterrupted time is really precious.
Yeah said it. I probably would have loved FF7 Remake if I was a teenager with unlimited time, but as an adult with precious little time for gaming, I can’t be bothered to waste it. The reviews for Rebirth that talk about open world bloat makes me sad, because I’m probably not going to play it at all
@@thegammelier Agreed, same here. And it's especially baffling with the FF7 remakes, since the original *is* more condensed, in that the Midgar section takes ~6 hours. But they split the remake into 3 separate games, and fill each of them with bloat. It makes me sigh.
I understand, from a devevelopment perspective the "bloat" is easier / cheaper to produce than main story setpieces, so it's a financial consideration.
Still it would be cool if, after all remake parts are released, they'd make a "Mom & Dad Edition" that's all cherry-picked. :D
4:49 I felt that in my soul 🤣
Thanks and welcome to the channel!
(dis)honourable mention to rpgs who take 48 hours to maybe tell a good story while showcasing the worst storytelling possible. say what you will about until dawn but at least it's not a text box spam.
Text box spam used to be the only way to get that much story data into a game. And is still the only way for small developers to afford to tell almost any larger story at all.
But yeah, a lot of RPGs are very, very bloated. At least these days they almost never make you run around in circles to fight random battles to grind for XP and money so you can grind against more difficult random battles... Progress.
Mfw the STORY focused game has a long story
@@goodgamer1419 i mean yeah that's one my issues, you can have a story but if you pad it out to like 40 hours, odd are the outcome won't be good.
@@swan-cloud i mean... not really there are ways you can make a good 40 hour story, jrpgs as a genre would not exist otherwise, also most games that length are liks 2/3 gameplay, you just tend to notice the story more
Love this. Blendo games don’t get enough hype. The feels per minute is off the charts compared to anything out there. Such a great video!
Hey, thanks, yeah, Blendo’s on their own level, something I’ve wanted to put out there for a while
I actually paused the video and played gravity bone. And dang I LOVED IT. I wish I hadn't seen the quadrilateral cowboy section and stopped being lazy and actually experienced the game myself cuz damn son, I felt emotions just by watching the ending section through your lens.
Why can't more games feature this quality of storytelling? (rhetorical question. I think I know the answer i.e. fill games with as much bloat as possible to artificially increase its length to justify the $70 price tag)
P.S. What do I get for finishing my homework?
I think games have bloated storytelling because the writers/directors just don't know how to edit themselves, really. Writing is rewriting, after all, you have to be able to look at what you're working on and go "oh, this doesn't work, rip it out" but that also take *time* which a lot of dev cycles don't have the luxury of. I think the Yakuza games would benefit greatly from another year of development, just to cut down on all the bloat, but they're cranked out so fast that's not an option.
Thanks for doing your homework, your reward is the memories you made along the way!
Not good enough...? Hang on, I gotta gold star around here somewhere...
@@thegammelier Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And that's a very valid summary of why writing in mainstream games is generally so bad.
For my reward, can I make a request for a future video? (pls do Outer Wilds. I'd love your take on it)
Short answer: best game ever?
It's the narrative culmination of games' journey over the last 40 odd years and an untouchable masterpiece
@@thegammelier same feelings but I feel so validated now. Thank you
First off, I'd like to say that "The Gamellier," is one of the best channel names I've ever seen. It certainly describes what it is you're trying to accomplish here. Besides that, this video was truly amazing. I've always been annoyed by the fact that so many games drone on for far too long in exposition and story-telling. I've gotten so used to it, that I came to accept that as just the way video games are, and that sometimes long, drawn out cutscenes are needed because it's simply a different medium. You've shown me that this necessarily isn't the case. Personally, I love Until Dawn, because of how stupid it is, but I can see why you think it is a waste of time when comparing it to something like Gravity Bone. I agree with your line of thinking though, there has to be a better way. Gamers shouldn't accept mediocrity. There are some games however, that I feel aren't soured by the integrated story. Resident Evil, I think, is a great example of story being intertwined with gameplay. Especially since it's a survival horror, the cutscenes let you breathe a little in-between the different sections of the game. There are also plenty of instances where the in-game notes contain clues to help you solve the puzzles in order to progress, which give them a purpose rather than being just more fluff. What I do despise however are so-called "story-driven" games that are so bogged down and bloated with unimportant nonsense, that it makes the game not fun anymore and in some instances detracts from its overall message. Anyways, awesome video! Keep up the great work! 👍
I looooove Resident Evil, especially the REmakes but those all utilize very effective storytelling. Cutscenes are only as long as they need to be and almost all of them move the story forward. Until Dawn *feels* like a waste of time in comparison.
Thanks for the view and the kind words, it means a lot
They aren't talking
They are yapping
who the hell gets mad videogames are compared to cinema, that's the whole point
Maybe until dawn devs were trying to "justify" the AAA price tag by dragging it along like they did. If it was only movie-length , boy, there woulda been riots. Not saying 2 hour games are bad, it just needs indie level price tags associated with it. But yeah, I can totally see and think to myself "yeah, THAT scene coulda been cut, that one coulda been shortened"
I don’t care if it’s longer than a movie but it should still adhere to some screenwriting standards of pacing, reveals, charges, etc. I played 200 hours of the Witcher 3 and felt like every bit of dialogue was purposeful
I think one of the great things about games as a storytelling medium is that they can allow the player to dictate how much extraneous or supplemental information they get. One of my complaints about Doom 2016 is that while the Doom Slayer might get to cut exposition short, the player does not.
For a particularly interesting example, Disco Elysium has lore dumps locked behind passive skill checks. If you pump points into the relevant skills, you'll get a bunch of exposition. If you don't, you don't. A much simpler and more common model is to give the player text and/or audio documents which they can choose whether to read/listen to. I think one of my personal favorites is Möbius Front 83 containing PDFs of actual government published documents about contemporary warfare which inspired the game's mechanics.
I think one point of contention I have with the video though is the idea of comparing video game runtime directly to movie runtime. Player control just makes stuff inherently more engaging, even if it's as simple as walking down a fixed path, so games can get away with drawing things out more. Though I do think Until Dawn overdoes it. I also think there is a serious problem with conflating time to complete and value, and consequently developers padding out games to satisfy consumer demand for "more" game.
Speaking of Until Dawn, it probably triples down on explaining the butterfly effect thing in order to get the player to swallow the lie. The game has some flags which trigger later events or outcomes, but events always play out mostly the same. So there is a reason for it, just not a satisfying reason.
I mean, you just named dropped an obscure Zachtronics game, so I'm gonna have to give it to you.
I'm talking more about game narratives where lore dumps are unavoidable, so the Disco Elysium example is really good. It lets the player decide how much they want to engage with it, but also takes care that both the critical and non-critical stuff are equally great. I go into this a bunch in my GoW video, but if the main game narrative is counting on a completionist approach to make sense (or be considered "good") then that's a problem
Thanks for watching!
Non-economic story telling is my single biggest complaint about most modern games and I'm so glad to see a video like this that examines it so well.
Interestingly, Uncharted is usually the series I bring up when talking about this issue, as every game feels like an Indiana Jones rip-off that's covering the same amount of content as an Indiana Jones movie but somehow taking 5 times as long to do it. I could go on and on about that, but I'm excited to see what the Uncharted 4 video you mentioned will look like! I imagine I'll gain a new appreciation from that.
Oh, you will...you better believe you will--!
Or not. I doubt I'll say much that you haven't heard before, I'm just going to go on and on about how well it nails every single aspect of holistic storytelling
fantastic video, great insight and overall very interesting
Thanks for watching, appreciate it
Hey, do another video, I really like them
Got one cooking, ever play the Oddworlds?
@@thegammelier haven't heard of them, can't wait for the video!
Damn what a great video fr
Mentioning the Kuleshov Effect. He’s into film alright 😂
Can you tell I went to film school...?
@@thegammelier I sure can, haha
look I tryed to play gravity bone but its steam download gave me an error and after downloading of itch it wouldn't launch, and I don't think I have the technical chops to figure out why.
edit: after further inspection closing and reopening steam solved the problem (10/10 game)
I took the title too literally, but I still need to get it off my chest.. I'm playing Guardians of the Galaxy right now, and goddammit could the guys shut it with their pubescent bickering *FOR ONE MINUTE* please
i watched this video when i was vaccuming. im not gonna play some nerd game just cause you shamed me about it. interesting video.
Vacuuming? Nerd
Gammelier question have you heard of gods and monsters and who is your favorite spider man my is noir
I have not, I’ll have to check that one out it looks interesting, and I have a soft spot for Peter B, but maybe that’s my Jake Johnson/New Girl love showing
@@thegammelieryou should like it has the must uniek take on batman superman and wonder woman ps what do you think of noir
damn your good
BYSTANDER: ‘Wow, you’re like…amazing, dude.’
GARTH: ‘Thanks…I like to play…’
FOUR MINUTE "COMING SOON" SECTION? Either you or your editor has lost their damn mind
I see what you did there AND I LIKE IT
your videos are so good its not even funny
Spread the good word, friend