To Back nine films it has got nothing to do with the wording, if you read rule 9.4 not show 26 point something which does not exist and has not for some years the rule in question it is quite clear. Is it certain or virtually certain that the player or his caddy caused the ball to move, nothing to do with addressing the ball grounding your club practice swing or any other nonsense. And under definitions in the rules book virtually certain is defined as 95% sure. It cannot be more simple is there a more than 95% chance that Harris or his caddy caused the ball to move. From the vision and audio of the telecast, which you conveniently omitted to show , and only from the telecast footage I have watched several times it appears that the correct decision was made. And from the footage I have watched to say that Hall was upset in anyway is almost slanderous. You must be watching something else. And to use the headline PGA Pro caught cheating is paramount to libellous
@@back9films Yes, but you should retract your channel title and apologise...Just because you are somewhat grounded in a North of England accent, and claim somewhat of a golfing background, does NOT allow you to lie...
I hate this part of golf! If the ball barely moves as you ground your club, it should not matter at all. You still have to hit the ball. I hate nit picky technicalities.
So how much is barely, quarter of an inch, half an inch, eighth of an inch or just as barely as to get it out of the the little depression it may be in? Why is it that people call a rule that they do not like or does not suit them “technical or nit picky”. There is no such thing as a “technical” rule. The rule is the rule nothing more nothing less. The new rules have even been rewritten to simplify, but clearly reading the comments posted here almost nobody has taken the time to read. The rule in Question is 9.4. There isn’t even a rule 26 now and hasn’t been for a few years. Learn the rules and play by them if you wish to ply in any competition or submit a card for handicap, I will almost guarantee you that abiding strictly to the rules will help you rather than hinder you. If you don’t want to play by the rules, fine, no problems but just play social golf against others who are “cheating” and not against others who do play by the rules and respect the game of golf.
The lie of a ball can vary tremendously in just a quarter inch of movement. There are certainly some nitpicking rules in golf, but this is NOT one of them.
David I agree, the ball either moves or it doesn’t, I am asking those idiots who say it DOESN’T matter if it moves a little bit. Tell me what they consider “a little bit” to be. If you are going to accept that it doesn’t matter if it moves a little bit everyone’s little bit is going to be different, you might as well make it preferred lies everywhere. This video is disgusting. It is clickbait and so are pretty well all of this channel content
@@glenwood9190this is the trouble with online “conversation”. You can take a simple statement from someone like that of the original commenters. Then say, “My word!! Someone has made a terrible error and I need to… No I must correct them so they know the error of their ways and just how stupid they truly are”. When in reality he/she was just making a comment and was in no need of a lecture. Thank you for your information, but might work on the presentation as not to come off an uppity prick.
What bothers me about this video is the title. The title states as fact in caps that a player has been caught cheating. The actual video reveals a call for opinions about it, and the player actually was not penalized, and therefore not "caught". This is happening a LOT on youtube now, where titles are misleading and sensationalized. The worst are the JWST ones about the Big Bang. It reeks of shoddy informational practices.
Absolutely correct observation Brian....this clown should apologise to Harris English specifically and to viewers generally, and he should STOP his reporting antics.
Several things at play here. 1). Are Scottsdale Golf and Puma happy with their logos front and centre on this contentious video. 2). Players use language to benefit themselves. How many players have been in real bother and claimed they were going to play the shot left handed, low and behold they find a rabbit scrape and get a free drop?! 3). Ask the player who missed keeping his tour card based on the outcome of such decisions.
Two things: 1) You quote Rule 26-1. I do not find Rule 26-1 on the USGA web site on the rules of golf. Even still, you talk about "addressing the ball" vs "grounding the club". A player can touch the grass behind the ball while not grounding the club and thereby has not caused the ball to move. 2) Regardless, Mr. English did not gain a clear advantage either way and in the spirit of the game and the rules should not have been penalized. Any player "outraged" by this should take a step back.
I think at this point they should just change the rules like they did on the green and have it read “did you intend in any way to make the ball move or create a scenario that would make it move” can’t tell if he cheated or not here but it’s a dumb rule as written.
Another rule, away from this one is having to play from divots that should go away. It's really no different than fixing pitch marks on the green or fixing spike marks. Those who played in the morning had perfect greens & a divot is no different even tho it's during the entire tournament, although, few divots on Thursday is another benefit. I just don't like players being punished, in a sense, for something out of their control that could affect the final outcome. They should be considered ground under repair. On the other side of the coin, our bunkers are too easy for pros.
The correct rule and the rule the referee used says just that, when it is known or virtually certain that the player or their caddy caused their ball to move. Under definitions in the rules virtually certain means 95% or more
I went back and watched the incident again to see what I missed first time I watched and thought nothing of the situation. what vision were you watching, to say Hall was effected in any way is nothing short of liable and Harris described what he did from looking at the vision. And the correct ruling was made.
I was a former USGA rules official, in these situation we lesson to everyone but at the end of day, we take the impacted player word as the final statement and go from there. However, using TV replay can also be used to help make the proper ruling.
Stupid discussion. Golf has an honest system for a reason. If you don't have PROOF that he did wrong, stop insinuating that he was cheating. The fact that the playing partner didn't see anything seem to react it's just proof of his presumption that he wouldn't have been alerted to the situation if it was during the practice shot. A stupid idea to begin with as I believe he would have been alerted regardless of when the ball moved. To me, his reaction is just bad form. Surly players know there are cameras everywhere. To cheat under those circumstances or to suspect anybody of doing so is just stupid in my opinion. I have no idea about this situation as I didn't see it but I starting to get a bit tired of this channel's attempt to make BREAKING NEWS out of very small thing day after day. If people have proof, show it, otherwise just shot the heck up!
I do tend to agree with you in most of these circumstances. However I am curious as to why English didn’t notify someone at the precise moment it happened. If we can believe what the playing partner said, he had addressed the ball before notifying him. And the video footage I think would certainly show whether or not he had addressed the ball before notifying his partner. But apparently there was a hot mic that picked up his voice saying the ball had moved? When did this happen??? I can’t find video footage anywhere.
@@Pseudify The same problem for me. No video anywhere. Anyway: 100 % in agreement with what you're saying. However. My view is this. The playing partner surely has his focus on his own task. It's pretty easy to misunderstand and (this is my own experience) People who tend to see cheating when it actually was something else for the most part have a tendency to cheat themself. (I don't know this guy at all.) Therefore I always take others' testimony with a grain of salt. (We don't know their presumptions and can't judge how trustworthy their observations are.) The video would have been perfect. However; Up until we have that one I do trust the player's statement.
I believe he said "the ball is still moving" when he mentioned it to his caddy and playing partners. As in, he saw it moving/settling before he addressed it, which is no penalty and is played where it comes to rest, but then as he addressed it, the ball continued to move. So, since it was already moving a little, it could be concluded that his addressing the ball didn't start the ball to move. Thats what he explained to the rules officials and they concluded there should be no penalty.
Simple answer is, did Harris English gain a significant advantage with the ball moving a quarter inch. Come on rules people, get these nit picky stupid rules out of the rule book. Simply replace the ball to its original position and move on. This discussion is less about the rules of golf and more about the integrity of Harris English. In golf, if you ever get labeled as a cheater, you cannot shake that Scarlet "C". We want to hang the guys integrity for what? Lets get real. I've been playing competitive golf for 50 years and I am studying the rules of golf to become a rules official. This one needs to be modified. No penalty and place the ball back to its original position. No Penalty.
Don’t you think after 60 minutes of review somebody would have noticed he was at address and assess the penalty if that were the fact please! He called it on his self to have it reviewed. Had he not said anything nobody would have noticed it.
Knowing the rules is so important. Harris English used his knowledge of the rules to his advantage. A lot of pros have done it to educate yourself on the rules, and it will help you.
9.4 Ball Lifted or Moved by Player This Rule applies only when it is known or virtually certain that a player (including the player’s caddie) lifted their ball at rest or the player's or their caddie's actions caused it to move.
Clearly not cheating. He told everyone that the ball moved. Pretty sure nobody else even knew it moved. If he had say nothing, we wouldn’t be having any discussion
I was actually watching this when it happened, and we didn't get a great look at it on camera, whether it moved when he addressed it, or when he took a practice stroke. Yeah, maybe he fibbed a little to avoid a penalty, but the rules are stupid when it comes to this. The ball oscillating forward a touch didn't really affect his next shot. He tanked it on Sunday with a +6 anyways, so it didn't really matter. I like the PGA tour giving him the benefit of the doubt, because there is just too much of this nonsense. A penalty should only be accessed when a clear advantage would be gained. I don't think he gained any advantage here with the ball oscillating by millimeters.
My opinion is that the rule needs to be rewritten to evoke penalty only if player actually moves it to get an advantage from the current lie. Otherwise just try to replace the ball in the previous position or close as can be, no penalty.
I have two takeaways from this. For one, what do you mean if you don't move the ball back you could incur a 2 stroke penalty? The rule you've shown on screen clearly says if the ball has moved due to addressing it or grinding the club then it's a one stroke penalty and you play the ball as it now lies. And two. Yes he technically did "cheat" let's say. But I'm sorry, Hall should still not be upset. Do you want to win the tournament because you actually won it, or because another player got a "penalty" based on a rule that provided him absolutely no advantage. And I'm sure I'm in the minority here and most of you will argue, hey that's golf those are the rules. But any true competitor will understand what I mean. I want to earn my win I don't want it handed to me by a silly rule that wouldnt make a difference in the score if it didn't exist. The bigger issue is golf is a game of honestly and yes he should be honest, but Hall should not care one way or the other what happens. The only advantage one way or the other would go to Hall not English.
The movement of a golf ball by a small fraction of an inch can change the lie dramatically. And given that he was up against taller grass, even more so. This is no trivial rule!
The rule should be changed to never address within a range that may cause movement. I.e. any lie with a lot of nature behind the ball. Then only swing like in the sand.
He might have seen the ball move while he was practicing his stroke and thought it meant nothing. Then, when he got over the ball he had a second thought and said to himself, "I better say something," and pulled out of address position.
Some golfers have a set routine. A few practice strokes and then address the ball. He may have just gone through the whole routine without thinking out of habit. Doesnt mean him stopping after addressing is when the ball moved.
I hate to inform you that there is no Rule 26 in golf any longer. That disappeared after the rules change of 2019. If he caused the ball to move, Rule 9.4 applies with a 1 stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced to the original spot. If it is determined that the ball moved due to natural forces, there is no penalty and the ball must be played from it's new location. The rules official has to make the determination based on his interaction with the player and any witnesses. Unfortunately, after the official makes a decision (even if it is later proven to be wrong) then that decision stands and the player must proceed accordingly based upon that decision.
What set of rules did you use to quote 26-1(iv)(b)? As of January 2023 the "Official Guide to the Rules of Golf" has the end of Rule 25 - Modifications for Players with Disabilities on page 325. Page 326 is the start if the Definitions section. THERE IS NO RULE 26 IN THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO THE RULES OF GOLF. You should read the current Rule 9.4b Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing it to Move. Your argument is based on the wording of an old rule that no longer exists. For example, the current rule 9.4 makes no reference to "addressing the ball".
Interesting use of the word "cheating" Alex! English did the right thing by bringing a tour official over when he saw the ball move. English then gave his interpretation of what happened to the tour official. Hall evidently was standing there while all of this was going on. Shouldn't he have said something then if he thought that English's interpretation and what Hall saw was different. Then, a official investigation took place and nothing conclusive was found to dispute English's remarks. What should we conclude from this if nothing wrong was found in the investigation? To me, this is called "rules interpretation!" Happens all of the time. Sometime for the good and sometime for the bad!
Much Ado About Nothing- The person making this presentation is basing his opinion solely on what HE THOUGHT Harris English's playing partner's reaction, NOT what a PGA Rules Official stated. After a 60 minute "investigation" it was determined that nothing could be found to overturn the Tour Official's ruling. Case closed and this headline is nothing more that a bad case of "Clickbait". l'm sorry that I wasted my time with this "story".
And Jack nicklaus's book he said if at all possible he would not ground the club at address so he wouldn't cause the ball to move. The fact is your club should coming into the ball with some air before it would make contact (almost all shots) if that makes sense.
Jack Nicklas said he never grounded his club behind the ball so as to NOT incur a penalty if it moved. With the ball against the rough, did anyone see English "ground" his putter into the ground. A shot like that a Pro won't be grounding his putter. He'll hover it as he knows he's going to make a descending blow on the golf ball and pop it out towards the hole. Much-a-do about nothing. But this is the internet and everything is a controversy.
If the golfers can't be honest, maybe we should have some kind of 'replay' system. If the player is shown to be lying, levy an extra stroke on top of the other.
If you place your club directly behind the ball it HAS BEEN ADDRESSED. If English was simply taking practice strokes and the ball moved no foul. A ball can oscillate and not be deemed to have moved. A player can inadvertently hit the ball during a practice stroke and it is still NOT a penalty. The ball being against the fringe makes it more likely to be influenced by the grass against it. In this instance like they said inconclusive.
When you address the ball in the rough, it can move very easily. He very likely caused it to move. A rule that should change as well - inadvertent striking the ball off the green, and not in a hazard.
For fucks sake, what is wrong with you people, the rule is the rule, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you do not cause the ball to move unless making a shot. And please do not bring up you can do it on the green, it is a different set of circumstances and the rule was changed to cover those situations. Just play by the rules and play the ball as it lies, it is called rub of the green. If you don’t like the rules play social golf and no one gives a fuck or find another game.
Good chat......The bottom line is that tour officials are weak. They dont properly challenge the players. Look at how weak the official in Dubai was when dealing with Patrick Read. English obviously knew what he was doing and the pros are experts at using the rules. problem is if the player is insistent then the officials need to be strong and smell the rats!
Great point. That rules official in Dubai literally let Patrick Reed define the entire process of identifying "his" ball in the tree. If it was me, I'd have asked him to show me the golf balls in his bag to prove his identification marks matched the ball in the tree. The whole thing was even more embarrassing for the official once we learned they weren't even looking at the right tree.
Here's the point that decides it for me. If the ball moved while he was setting up for or going through his practice routine, why did he continue with the routine? When the ball moves, everything should stop IMMEDIATELY.
use the honor system until it has been proved otherwise, in which case make your own judgement as to if it was an honest mistake or not so we know if we can continue with him on the honor system.
It has nothing to do with addressing the ball or grounding your club. You need to use the latest edition of the Rules of Golf before rabbiting on and trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. There isn’t a rule 26!!!!!!!! Try looking at rule 9.4
Over a long period of time the integrity of the game has changed. While in no way similar to this, in the 2018 U.S. Open, Phil Mickelson intentionally hit a moving ball. He intentionally broke the rules of golf in arguably the biggest stage in golf. He should have been disqualified. Dottie Pepper said on air that Mickelson was "just using the rules of golf to his advantage". The rules of golf are in place so that a player doesn't gain an advantage. I lost a lot of respect for Dottie when she said this. Mickelson said later that "he thought about doing this at the Masters" and I had visions of the Phil being dragged off of Augusta National.
The guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His rule references are from 2018 and prior. There is no rule 26. The standard for determining whether a player is penalized was changed in 2019, and is covered in Rule 9.
Which would explain why Koepka lost the Master's on the final round due to the cheating incident between his caddy and Gary Woodland's during round #2.
Just change the rules of golf to the laws of golf, then it could be settled in a Supreme Court. Rules are made for children, laws are made for adults who know better.
Why is there a rule regarding ball movement where the player hasn't touched the ball? So, what is the big deal about ball movement when the player is addressing the ball and has not touched the ball? What if an earthquake occurred to cause the ball to move at the precise moment the player addresses the ball? Should the player be penalised for that? The rule is ridiculous and why I won't play tournament golf.
What makes this more perplexing is the rules official was English. The player involved has a last name of English. But, the tournament was held in the United States. Yes, the same United States that won its freedom from the English. So, does the English rules official say SCREW AMERICA rule against the American named English? Or does the English rules official join the American named English and say SCREW THE ENGLISH? This could easily start another war between the Americans and the English. But when you get right down to it, it would be the ENGLISH versus the ENGLISH. I’m so confused right now.
This is why some are turned off on golf. Golf needs a major rules change that makes sense. In the end did any of this matter? Get lawyers out of the game.
Murkey. The question should be did he hit the ball or no. I suppose the rules are not written that way. However to address the ball, you must place your club immediately behind the ball. Where exactly is immediately? Immediately would be a location, where there is no middle between ball and club. So that means contact. The only place a golf club could be where it was immediately ahead or behind the ball is where the golf club head is in contact with the ball from ahead or behind. That means you don't address a ball until you have made contact with it. However, if you are on the side, you are allowed to hit it? That makes zero sense.
This rule is ridiculous…if the ball wiggles a little but doesn’t move more then a sixteenth or eighth of an inch or maybe rocks a little due to the turf/ ground lie or maybe a stiff wind when the player begins his pre shot routine it should not be a penalty… If the player appears to have improved his lie by a purposeful action (there are cameras everywhere) that’s a different issue. This rule sets up the player to look like he is possibly cheating and can cause nothing but bad vibes all around. A 550 yard hole and the player gets a penalty stroke for a ball that possibly barely moves as he begins a pre shot routine …dump the rule.
Why not address the elephant in the room. I mean when you hit a great tee shot down the middle of the fairway and it ends up in a divot that someone couldn’t be bothered to replace and you can’t get a drop. I can’t believe a rule hasn’t been brought in to fix this issue.
If Harris grounded his club, he's guilty. If Harris didn't ground his club, no penalty. So the question is, did he lay the sole of his club on the ground in or around the vicinity of the golf ball? Does anyone know?
Unfortunately with the way PGA Golf is going and with the amount of money now involved for each and every stroke in the final count. The "Breaches" are becoming more and more prevalent and I feel you can nearly find an example of this every tournament. Not only saying that but for years it seemed that the Rules Officials would also "manipulate" the rules to suit the elite, for example Tiger Woods' 11 man "loose impediment" or Phil Mickelson's "picked up ball" from the OB Carpark. We all have to remember that MONEY speaks it's own language and the game will never be the same for it.
Tiger was legally allowed to have that rock moved. It is in the rules. The rock was loose so could be moved. How many people have to do it makes no difference.
@@stephenpage7974 I didn't make the rules, and even I thought Tiger pushed the rules in that instance. The rules official deemed it was a loose impediment, so Tiger could do what he did as the rules official green lighted it. Cheers
Should’ve been penalized one-stroke for causing the ball to move because it was an address mode and should’ve been also penalized another stroke for not placing the ball back in its original place that is meaning of two-stroke penalty
I lost out on making my high school team when a dude hit a ball OB, had to walk back and replay #9 with our group behind, took four more shots to reach the green, 3 putts and disappears. He allegedly wrote down a 6 and took off, yet with several witnesses the coach called it "hearsay" and miffed it. Needless to say I missed out and he went on to be the worst player in the entire conference.
You ever want to talk about "violations", just go no further than "drops". Since the latest "morph" of the "drop" rules, I have seen countless examples of "throws" as opposed to "drops". IMHO a "drop" is an action where the hand is motionless/still at the drop-height and the ball is simply released vertically to complete the "drop". Time and again, and I'm including the best players in the World, the ball is dropped while the hand is in motion. Again IMHO, this is not a "drop", it's a throw. The whole "drop" action has now become a strategy to have the ball "react" as it hits the ground to enable a possible landing outcome. Trouble is, if you challenge the top players in the World, you'll get butchered for it.
gosh, you have got the whole thing drastically wrong! There are only 25 Rules. Prior to 2019, ball at rest moved was governed by Rule 18-2, since then, by Rules 9.2 and 9.4. Since 2019, the words "address" and "hazard" no longer exist in the Rules. Under the current Rule 9.2, the player is not guilty unless there is knowledge and virtual certainty that he caused the ball to move. You were probably quoting the pre-1984 Rule Book (Rule 26? Were you even born then?). In those days, the player was guilty unless proven innocent; now the player is innocent unless proven guilty.
same rule should apply to the entire course NO MATTER WHAT, as it is when accidently making ball move off the tee in tee box, no penalty re-tee it and hit it, rule 6.1a,, NO INTENT should be the governing idea to all shots or strokes whether in your stance or not, other drive me crazy rule not allowed to fix a ball mark OFF the green in your line, the governing rule should be 13.1c(2) for the entire golf course
This really is a pretty dumb rule in the first place because if you ground the club behind the ball and cause it to move it's probably going to be a worse lie than what you had because gravity will cause it to become lower to the ground. How exactly is that gaining an advantage? To me the rule should always have been if at any point you ACCIDENTALLY cause the ball to move away from the green that you notify your playing partners and put it back exactly as it was. That would make much more sense.
A ball can oscillate without penalty. This means that it does move but does not change position. That’s it. I’m sick of crybabies and better known players getting their way.
By stepping up to take your shot, it does not mean you have yet addressed you ball. You have to set up to it... if the ball moves as you step up to address it, you can notify your playing partners, and replace the ball to it's original position... and carry on. Harry Hall (and his caddie) never saw what happened and he misunderstood Harris English's description of what occurred. They immediately drew their own (incorrect) conclusions and let their emotions ruin their own day/game. Golf is a game of honor and it has a way of working in tandem with karrma and together they make the necessary adjustments. I leave players (in competition) make their own decisions, right or wrong but I'm there to assist and not insist because in the end, they will have to face the Golf Gods... and I don't want any external situation to affect MY game.
THERE IS NO RULE 26!! However, if it can be shown that the player caused the ball to move, yes, it’s a one stroke penalty, whether he addressed the ball or not.
Frankly, I expected better from your channel than a headline like this "PGA TOUR player CAUGHT CHEATING LIVE!!". The presumption of guilt here is massively more noticeable than the presumption of innocence which he, and every person, deserves. a) You were not there, b) the Rules official made the ruling...and that's it. Leave the cheating up to people like P. Reed and leave the 'sensationalism' (of your headline ) to other less-scrupulous presenters.
Agreed, more importantly it appears to me and only from the evidence I have seen and heard from viewing the telecast the correct ruling which is 9.4 was made. The fact that showing rule 26 point something during the video does not exist and has not for several years just goes to the credibility of this channel
@@glenwood9190 Absolutely right...this channel’s credibility is under REAL threat. If he carries on like this, or thinks he needs to just to get viewers, he’ll be looking to get a job on Fox News 🤪
This is what sucks about Professional golf. The ball moving 5mm before the ball is struck means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and this is foolishness. Especially when you consider there are starving children in the world. ( I know it’s an unrealistic comparison but seriously)
Golf has a growing honesty problem -boy do I have some stories -but I don’t think Harris English is the problem. Imo this highlights how terrible the pga tour handles rulings specifically on live tv. This official should have been notified immediately this was on tv and to hang on as they review it. Harris imo did everything he could to explain the situation. Part of the problem with not watching the coverage -whether officials or commentators - is the story gets skewed. The other bigger problem is the rules themselves. The question that must be asked: considering the rules now pardon moving the ball accidentally on the green -so long as it’s replaced-and considering when the ball is not on the green the difference between one stroke and two strokes is based if the player replaces the ball. So the precedent is set for a player picking up the ball and replacing it to save a stroke. So why not make it one stroke (or two) if played from the new spot but NO penalty stroke if it was moved inadvertently and replaced with every intention to recreate the lie exactly as it was. Of course playing partners should play a role in that. And of course the player cannot have moved it on purpose or through anger. As we learned in the legend of bagger Vance, no class gofer wants to win that way. Sometimes courses are too spongy. Unless a player does something abnormal, it should just be replaced. Officials should be always how often it happens to any player ..and it should need to be used often.
Had an opponent in a 4 ball match who followed us around all day making sure we played by the rules. On the 2nd hole of sudden death he judges his ball to be in casual water when it was actually in a drainage area crossing the fairway that had rocks in the bottom of it. I called him out and said that's a creek and there is no free drop. Really pissed him off especially when I strapped a 7 iron approach on the next hole to win. We exchanged a lot of words at that point. I asked the pro when I got back to the clubhouse and he said it was definitely a creek and no free drop.
So you are saying a little bit is alright. Tell me how much is a little bit? 1mm, 2mm, 5mm or just a little to get it out of the depression the ball is lying in. The ball is hanging over the edge of the hole it is only a little bit should we count that as in? There is only a little bit of the ball in the penalty area that’s ok?
Your statement of him addressing the ball and the ball moves is a violation. That is a blatant misread of the rules. It says a golfer has to ground his club. It is only as he makes a stance in a hazard that that ruling applies as you stated it. Wake up!
The rules official has failed to get the correct information. English said "when it first moved it {the club} was right here" which I'm sure was true. The official has then made his decision based on this statement. But that isn't enough information to arrive at a decision because there was clearly more than one movement of the ball, based on the statement by English, why else would he have used the phrase "first moved"? The official should have then asked "but did it move again after you addressed the ball?" Because, based on all the other evidence available, presumably it did?
The guy just outright lied to the rules official, if he thought that ball was moving in the slightest, he would have stepped back and not addressed it. Why would he take the risk?
Where we putting this in relation to Reeds… numerous brushes with the rules? Is it on par, is it worse because he knew as soon as he spoke to Hall what the repercussions were going to be and knew what to say to the official to influence the ruling in his favour.. it’s the intent which needs to be questioned.
Why was Rory not called out for knowing the rules about his ball being embedded but all of sudden didn't know the rule of where the drop should had been?
2:37 time mark: Rule 26-1(iv)(b) _ I don't understand where you got your information. The current rules only go up to Rule 24 and under the old rules, Rule 26 covered water hazards. Moreover, the quoted Rule 26-1(iv)(b) is strikingly in error when it says "the ball shall be played as it lies." Under both the old rules and the new rules, the ball must be replaced at its original spot. Failure to do so incurs the general penalty of two strokes. As to the Harris English controversy, I'd characterize it as "much ado about nothing". Players are expected to play the game with integrity, therefore PLAYERS ARE TREATED AS IF THEY HAVE PLAYED WITH INTEGRITY. The rules officials reviewed whatever video was recorded of the event and were satisfied that no penalty was warranted. Nuff said.
The rules say if the ball moves AFTER the player has grounded his club. So the only question is did he address the ball AND ground his club. If he didnt`t ground his club there is no penalty.............
The act of “addressing “ the ball is not clear. Correct me if I’m wrong but grounding the the club behind the ball constitutes having addressed the ball. I never ground any of my clubs. PenguinGolf
Rory poked his finger in the side of a bunker and said his ball was embedded. He should have let the playing partners and the officials be the ones to move the ball and make the determination. Harris English is no better than anyone else who takes advantage of the rules. Patrick Reed is not the only golfer to bend the rules!!!! With the amount of money at stake, I'm surprised we don't see or find out about more improprieties, and outright cheating. Maybe if the penalty was a 5 tournament suspension the cheating would cease.
Balderdash!!! Rory didn’t poke a hole in the side of the dirt wall of the bunker and then push an extra ball or his original ball back in the poked hole to then claim it was embedded.with Schefler’s ball also in the sand of the same bunker. We are expected to believe that he, Schefler, would not notice because Rory has the slight of hand of a Vegas magician. The video clearly showed Rory digging the very embedded ball out of the wall. This is a totally fabricated story, PERIOD!!
Title is spot on! English changed the narrative once his playing partner called him out on the rule and what penalty is entailed. While waiting for official, English/caddie constructed a story that they knew could only be ruled on by the "Honor Code". So who comes out in the end looking like the dishonest player with this forever tainting his record, the playing partner who knew the rules of the game. English knew there was no video footage nor even an official within sight. English's caddie " lied under oath" for reasons unknown. Verdict: On the count of First Degree Cheating the official ruled not guilty. English clearly lied and got away with it. The 3 penalty strokes added to score card would not only result in higher finishing place, but more importantly, a much lower paycheck. My opinion on preventing these incidents in the future, "body cams" that are placed on under side of bill of hat and only placed by tournament official right before the player enters #1 tee box of round 1.
So, practice swings and he sees the ball move, but doesn't say anything? Only when he's grounded the club behind the ball does he stop and says, "Oh, by the way, the ball moved when I was taking my practice strokes"? Maybe he just wanted to finish his routine before bringing it up? Hmmm...
If he originally deemed it necessary to inform the people around him that there was a possible problem, then deciding to use terminology to rules official to abdicate him of the responsibility indicates he has changed the wording to his benefit. Which is not playing the game as it is intended therefore cheating, but the rules official can only work from what he is told. This should be shame on the player who by announcing the movement of the ball to all around him at the time should be ashamed.
I walked up to my ball the other day on a steep slope and it began moving down the slope . I think the vibrations from my steps made it move . It ended up another 20 feet further from the hole . I then addressed the ball and it moved another 3 feet ! A stroke penalty or 2 strokes if I did not move it back nearer to the hole seems ridiculous to me ! 😂
No he didn't cause the ball to move and You're just going to have to take his word. Not known as a cheater on tour so give him the benefit of the doubt.
Wow, I didn’t think there was anything I could care less about. Gentleman’s game. Accept what he said and move on. People act like that inch it moved gives some unfair advantage.
The rule refers to grounding the club. I may be wrong but I think I’ve read elsewhere that club head being in contact with top of long-ish rough does not constitute grounding. “Addressing the ball” does not constitute grounding, an earlier post correctly referred to J Nicklaus’ career-long practice. Also agree with earlier post about headline. Our opinions are not proof.
You called the American golfer a "Cheater " with NO proof!! Not only did he not get penalized after a 1 hour investigation, the playing partner never said a word. But, we American's have known about the bitterness & hatred European's have towards us. Where would European players make a living? They would have to travel the world if not for an American tour which pays in U.S.D., not euros. You want fair play, do a video on Rory like this video!!
They need to change the rules if its not intentional movement of the ball by the player, he should get to replace it without penalty , i love the game but some of the rules are just insane!
Well I got told by a Pro that the rules state that a ball can move but not off it's original spot at address, meaning if the ball had moved for Harry but then went back to the original spot then it's fine otherwise it's a penalty
If you are reporting what the Pro said precisely he is correct, apart from the fact of using the word address, the definition of the term moved is as follows, “When a ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so). This applies whether the ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot. If the ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, the ball has not moved.” So it is not only at address, it could be when trying to remove a twig or stone, or anything that is defined as a loose impediment. It could be an outside influence, another ball, animal etc. The issue here is not whether the ball moved, it did, that was undeniably established. The issue is who or what caused the ball to move. Rule 9.4 is the rule that covers this situation. What is misleading, no incorrect, is this channel displayed a rule 26 point something which does not exist and has not for some years. So in short, for the player to receive a penalty under rule 9.4 it has to be known or virtually certain the player or his caddy caused caused the ball to move. In the rule definitions “virtually certain” is 95% or more. From the broadcast audio and vision I have seen, and from a reported further 60 mins of investigation by tournament officials, it appears to me and obviously to them that the correct decision and outcome was made. Good golfing
@glenwood9190 yeah I agree with everything you have said and that was what the pro told me as well, though it was a while ago when he said it. What is really misleading is when the guy said about the ball moving but never mentioned how much it moved or if it moved off it's spot
*Whats your verdict here! Watch the entire video and let me know what you think on this POTENTIAL rules infringement*
The video was obviously checked by officials & was deemed there was no penalty no matter what anyone said. That's all that matters.
@@mikerodrick2430 I agree I think it’s the wording which is getting people to think
To Back nine films it has got nothing to do with the wording, if you read rule 9.4 not show 26 point something which does not exist and has not for some years the rule in question it is quite clear. Is it certain or virtually certain that the player or his caddy caused the ball to move, nothing to do with addressing the ball grounding your club practice swing or any other nonsense. And under definitions in the rules book virtually certain is defined as 95% sure. It cannot be more simple is there a more than 95% chance that Harris or his caddy caused the ball to move. From the vision and audio of the telecast, which you conveniently omitted to show , and only from the telecast footage I have watched several times it appears that the correct decision was made. And from the footage I have watched to say that Hall was upset in anyway is almost slanderous. You must be watching something else. And to use the headline PGA Pro caught cheating is paramount to libellous
You are correct, this is a bogus story made out of thin air
@@back9films Yes, but you should retract your channel title and apologise...Just because you are somewhat grounded in a North of England accent, and claim somewhat of a golfing background, does NOT allow you to lie...
I hate this part of golf! If the ball barely moves as you ground your club, it should not matter at all. You still have to hit the ball. I hate nit picky technicalities.
So how much is barely, quarter of an inch, half an inch, eighth of an inch or just as barely as to get it out of the the little depression it may be in? Why is it that people call a rule that they do not like or does not suit them “technical or nit picky”. There is no such thing as a “technical” rule. The rule is the rule nothing more nothing less. The new rules have even been rewritten to simplify, but clearly reading the comments posted here almost nobody has taken the time to read. The rule in Question is 9.4. There isn’t even a rule 26 now and hasn’t been for a few years. Learn the rules and play by them if you wish to ply in any competition or submit a card for handicap, I will almost guarantee you that abiding strictly to the rules will help you rather than hinder you. If you don’t want to play by the rules, fine, no problems but just play social golf against others who are “cheating” and not against others who do play by the rules and respect the game of golf.
The lie of a ball can vary tremendously in just a quarter inch of movement. There are certainly some nitpicking rules in golf, but this is NOT one of them.
David I agree, the ball either moves or it doesn’t, I am asking those idiots who say it DOESN’T matter if it moves a little bit. Tell me what they consider “a little bit” to be. If you are going to accept that it doesn’t matter if it moves a little bit everyone’s little bit is going to be different, you might as well make it preferred lies everywhere. This video is disgusting. It is clickbait and so are pretty well all of this channel content
@@glenwood9190 totally agree with you. Rules are just rules. Play by them or don’t play.
@@glenwood9190this is the trouble with online “conversation”. You can take a simple statement from someone like that of the original commenters. Then say, “My word!! Someone has made a terrible error and I need to… No I must correct them so they know the error of their ways and just how stupid they truly are”. When in reality he/she was just making a comment and was in no need of a lecture. Thank you for your information, but might work on the presentation as not to come off an uppity prick.
What bothers me about this video is the title. The title states as fact in caps that a player has been caught cheating. The actual video reveals a call for opinions about it, and the player actually was not penalized, and therefore not "caught". This is happening a LOT on youtube now, where titles are misleading and sensationalized. The worst are the JWST ones about the Big Bang. It reeks of shoddy informational practices.
Absolutely correct observation Brian....this clown should apologise to Harris English specifically and to viewers generally, and he should STOP his reporting antics.
This guy is a fucking YAHOO
100% right ..this clown is just looking for hits..
Several things at play here.
1). Are Scottsdale Golf and Puma happy with their logos front and centre on this contentious video.
2). Players use language to benefit themselves. How many players have been in real bother and claimed they were going to play the shot left handed, low and behold they find a rabbit scrape and get a free drop?!
3). Ask the player who missed keeping his tour card based on the outcome of such decisions.
This thread had me weak 😂
Why didn't you show us the film instead of trying to destroy a guy with click-bait claims. Proof is necessary
Two things: 1) You quote Rule 26-1. I do not find Rule 26-1 on the USGA web site on the rules of golf. Even still, you talk about "addressing the ball" vs "grounding the club". A player can touch the grass behind the ball while not grounding the club and thereby has not caused the ball to move. 2) Regardless, Mr. English did not gain a clear advantage either way and in the spirit of the game and the rules should not have been penalized. Any player "outraged" by this should take a step back.
I think at this point they should just change the rules like they did on the green and have it read “did you intend in any way to make the ball move or create a scenario that would make it move” can’t tell if he cheated or not here but it’s a dumb rule as written.
I totoally agree!!
Totally agree! Why put so much pressure on the players? In this case, will it really make any difference other than shame on the other?
Another rule, away from this one is having to play from divots that should go away. It's really no different than fixing pitch marks on the green or fixing spike marks. Those who played in the morning had perfect greens & a divot is no different even tho it's during the entire tournament, although, few divots on Thursday is another benefit. I just don't like players being punished, in a sense, for something out of their control that could affect the final outcome. They should be considered ground under repair. On the other side of the coin, our bunkers are too easy for pros.
The correct rule and the rule the referee used says just that, when it is known or virtually certain that the player or their caddy caused their ball to move. Under definitions in the rules virtually certain means 95% or more
I went back and watched the incident again to see what I missed first time I watched and thought nothing of the situation. what vision were you watching, to say Hall was effected in any way is nothing short of liable and Harris described what he did from looking at the vision. And the correct ruling was made.
I was a former USGA rules official, in these situation we lesson to everyone but at the end of day, we take the impacted player word as the final statement and go from there. However, using TV replay can also be used to help make the proper ruling.
Nicklaus never grounded his club for this very reason.
And I ground my club vigorously for a different reason lol
No video of alleged incident, so no value in any argument either way
Stupid discussion. Golf has an honest system for a reason.
If you don't have PROOF that he did wrong, stop insinuating that he was cheating.
The fact that the playing partner didn't see anything seem to react it's just proof of his presumption that he wouldn't have been alerted to the situation if it was during the practice shot. A stupid idea to begin with as I believe he would have been alerted regardless of when the ball moved. To me, his reaction is just bad form.
Surly players know there are cameras everywhere. To cheat under those circumstances or to suspect anybody of doing so is just stupid in my opinion.
I have no idea about this situation as I didn't see it but I starting to get a bit tired of this channel's attempt to make BREAKING NEWS out of very small thing day after day.
If people have proof, show it, otherwise just shot the heck up!
Same with Reed there's no proof of him cheating
I do tend to agree with you in most of these circumstances. However I am curious as to why English didn’t notify someone at the precise moment it happened. If we can believe what the playing partner said, he had addressed the ball before notifying him. And the video footage I think would certainly show whether or not he had addressed the ball before notifying his partner.
But apparently there was a hot mic that picked up his voice saying the ball had moved? When did this happen??? I can’t find video footage anywhere.
@@Pseudify The same problem for me. No video anywhere. Anyway: 100 % in agreement with what you're saying. However. My view is this. The playing partner surely has his focus on his own task. It's pretty easy to misunderstand and (this is my own experience) People who tend to see cheating when it actually was something else for the most part have a tendency to cheat themself. (I don't know this guy at all.)
Therefore I always take others' testimony with a grain of salt. (We don't know their presumptions and can't judge how trustworthy their observations are.)
The video would have been perfect. However; Up until we have that one I do trust the player's statement.
....and this video is a complete waste of time and effort producing. it.
@@NamelessRider 👍
I believe he said "the ball is still moving" when he mentioned it to his caddy and playing partners. As in, he saw it moving/settling before he addressed it, which is no penalty and is played where it comes to rest, but then as he addressed it, the ball continued to move. So, since it was already moving a little, it could be concluded that his addressing the ball didn't start the ball to move. Thats what he explained to the rules officials and they concluded there should be no penalty.
Simple answer is, did Harris English gain a significant advantage with the ball moving a quarter inch. Come on rules people, get these nit picky stupid rules out of the rule book. Simply replace the ball to its original position and move on. This discussion is less about the rules of golf and more about the integrity of Harris English. In golf, if you ever get labeled as a cheater, you cannot shake that Scarlet "C". We want to hang the guys integrity for what? Lets get real. I've been playing competitive golf for 50 years and I am studying the rules of golf to become a rules official. This one needs to be modified. No penalty and place the ball back to its original position. No Penalty.
Don’t you think after 60 minutes of review somebody would have noticed he was at address and assess the penalty if that were the fact please! He called it on his self to have it reviewed. Had he not said anything nobody would have noticed it.
You are wrong! The rest of the world may have seen it! He is aware of cameras around and passed the bacon to the rules official!
More evidence that the entire "story" is simply"clickbait".
Why don’t you show the video?
Knowing the rules is so important. Harris English used his knowledge of the rules to his advantage. A lot of pros have done it to educate yourself on the rules, and it will help you.
9.4
Ball Lifted or Moved by Player
This Rule applies only when it is known or virtually certain that a player (including the player’s caddie) lifted their ball at rest or the player's or their caddie's actions caused it to move.
Clearly not cheating. He told everyone that the ball moved. Pretty sure nobody else even knew it moved. If he had say nothing, we wouldn’t be having any discussion
I was actually watching this when it happened, and we didn't get a great look at it on camera, whether it moved when he addressed it, or when he took a practice stroke. Yeah, maybe he fibbed a little to avoid a penalty, but the rules are stupid when it comes to this. The ball oscillating forward a touch didn't really affect his next shot. He tanked it on Sunday with a +6 anyways, so it didn't really matter. I like the PGA tour giving him the benefit of the doubt, because there is just too much of this nonsense. A penalty should only be accessed when a clear advantage would be gained. I don't think he gained any advantage here with the ball oscillating by millimeters.
If this happened to PatrickReed he would be declared a cheater by golf tv channel and brandel Chambly would be calling him out everywhere!
Reed IS a Cheating scum bag doesn’t need branding again
Yes
Because of his reputation
Exactly
@@58nomad Golf channel played a big part in hurting Reed's reputation. That's why he's suing them.
@LRN_News Reed hurt Reeds reputation and the golf channel reported it.
My opinion is that the rule needs to be rewritten to evoke penalty only if player actually moves it to get an advantage from the current lie. Otherwise just try to replace the ball in the previous position or close as can be, no penalty.
I have two takeaways from this. For one, what do you mean if you don't move the ball back you could incur a 2 stroke penalty? The rule you've shown on screen clearly says if the ball has moved due to addressing it or grinding the club then it's a one stroke penalty and you play the ball as it now lies.
And two. Yes he technically did "cheat" let's say. But I'm sorry, Hall should still not be upset. Do you want to win the tournament because you actually won it, or because another player got a "penalty" based on a rule that provided him absolutely no advantage. And I'm sure I'm in the minority here and most of you will argue, hey that's golf those are the rules. But any true competitor will understand what I mean. I want to earn my win I don't want it handed to me by a silly rule that wouldnt make a difference in the score if it didn't exist. The bigger issue is golf is a game of honestly and yes he should be honest, but Hall should not care one way or the other what happens. The only advantage one way or the other would go to Hall not English.
The movement of a golf ball by a small fraction of an inch can change the lie dramatically. And given that he was up against taller grass, even more so. This is no trivial rule!
Absolutely Correct!
The rule should be changed to never address within a range that may cause movement. I.e. any lie with a lot of nature behind the ball. Then only swing like in the sand.
He might have seen the ball move while he was practicing his stroke and thought it meant nothing. Then, when he got over the ball he had a second thought and said to himself, "I better say something," and pulled out of address position.
Some golfers have a set routine. A few practice strokes and then address the ball. He may have just gone through the whole routine without thinking out of habit. Doesnt mean him stopping after addressing is when the ball moved.
I agree this is a great point!
I hate to inform you that there is no Rule 26 in golf any longer. That disappeared after the rules change of 2019. If he caused the ball to move, Rule 9.4 applies with a 1 stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced to the original spot. If it is determined that the ball moved due to natural forces, there is no penalty and the ball must be played from it's new location. The rules official has to make the determination based on his interaction with the player and any witnesses. Unfortunately, after the official makes a decision (even if it is later proven to be wrong) then that decision stands and the player must proceed accordingly based upon that decision.
What set of rules did you use to quote 26-1(iv)(b)? As of January 2023 the "Official Guide to the Rules of Golf" has the end of Rule 25 - Modifications for Players with Disabilities on page 325. Page 326 is the start if the Definitions section. THERE IS NO RULE 26 IN THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO THE RULES OF GOLF. You should read the current Rule 9.4b Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing it to Move. Your argument is based on the wording of an old rule that no longer exists. For example, the current rule 9.4 makes no reference to "addressing the ball".
Interesting use of the word "cheating" Alex! English did the right thing by bringing a tour official over when he saw the ball move. English then gave his interpretation of what happened to the tour official. Hall evidently was standing there while all of this was going on. Shouldn't he have said something then if he thought that English's interpretation and what Hall saw was different. Then, a official investigation took place and nothing conclusive was found to dispute English's remarks. What should we conclude from this if nothing wrong was found in the investigation? To me, this is called "rules interpretation!" Happens all of the time. Sometime for the good and sometime for the bad!
Much Ado About Nothing- The person making this presentation is basing his opinion solely on what HE THOUGHT Harris English's playing partner's reaction, NOT what a PGA Rules Official stated. After a 60 minute "investigation" it was determined that nothing could be found to overturn the Tour Official's ruling. Case closed and this headline is nothing more that a bad case of "Clickbait". l'm sorry that I wasted my time with this "story".
I'm imagining if you're using a putter with the longer rough behind the ball, you won't ground your club afraid it will get caught.
And Jack nicklaus's book he said if at all possible he would not ground the club at address so he wouldn't cause the ball to move. The fact is your club should coming into the ball with some air before it would make contact (almost all shots) if that makes sense.
Jack Nicklas said he never grounded his club behind the ball so as to NOT incur a penalty if it moved.
With the ball against the rough, did anyone see English "ground" his putter into the ground. A shot like that a Pro won't be grounding his putter. He'll hover it as he knows he's going to make a descending blow on the golf ball and pop it out towards the hole.
Much-a-do about nothing. But this is the internet and everything is a controversy.
Bs rules. This is what is wrong with golf. Can’t move the ball out of a divot, if the ball moves
If the golfers can't be honest, maybe we should have some kind of 'replay' system. If the player is shown to be lying, levy an extra stroke on top of the other.
If you place your club directly behind the ball it HAS BEEN ADDRESSED. If English was simply taking practice strokes and the ball moved no foul. A ball can oscillate and not be deemed to have moved. A player can inadvertently hit the ball during a practice stroke and it is still NOT a penalty. The ball being against the fringe makes it more likely to be influenced by the grass against it. In this instance like they said inconclusive.
When you address the ball in the rough, it can move very easily. He very likely caused it to move. A rule that should change as well - inadvertent striking the ball off the green, and not in a hazard.
For fucks sake, what is wrong with you people, the rule is the rule, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you do not cause the ball to move unless making a shot. And please do not bring up you can do it on the green, it is a different set of circumstances and the rule was changed to cover those situations. Just play by the rules and play the ball as it lies, it is called rub of the green. If you don’t like the rules play social golf and no one gives a fuck or find another game.
My Saturday four ball would not care, since we generally apply our own rules anyway.
Good chat......The bottom line is that tour officials are weak. They dont properly challenge the players. Look at how weak the official in Dubai was when dealing with Patrick Read. English obviously knew what he was doing and the pros are experts at using the rules. problem is if the player is insistent then the officials need to be strong and smell the rats!
Great point. That rules official in Dubai literally let Patrick Reed define the entire process of identifying "his" ball in the tree. If it was me, I'd have asked him to show me the golf balls in his bag to prove his identification marks matched the ball in the tree. The whole thing was even more embarrassing for the official once we learned they weren't even looking at the right tree.
He apparently gained no advantage because he did not move the ball away from the rough. So why would he lie and then gain no advantage.
Here's the point that decides it for me. If the ball moved while he was setting up for or going through his practice routine, why did he continue with the routine? When the ball moves, everything should stop IMMEDIATELY.
It’s a gentleman’s game of honor. We take people at their word. Move on.
use the honor system until it has been proved otherwise, in which case make your own judgement as to if it was an honest mistake or not so we know if we can continue with him on the honor system.
Need to see a clip, where is the video?
All just conjecture unless you have video of the entire thing. You don't have it, I haven't seen it, all we can do is take his word on it.
It has nothing to do with addressing the ball or grounding your club. You need to use the latest edition of the Rules of Golf before rabbiting on and trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. There isn’t a rule 26!!!!!!!! Try looking at rule 9.4
Over a long period of time the integrity of the game has changed. While in no way similar to this, in the 2018 U.S. Open, Phil Mickelson intentionally hit a moving ball. He intentionally broke the rules of golf in arguably the biggest stage in golf. He should have been disqualified. Dottie Pepper said on air that Mickelson was "just using the rules of golf to his advantage". The rules of golf are in place so that a player doesn't gain an advantage. I lost a lot of respect for Dottie when she said this. Mickelson said later that "he thought about doing this at the Masters" and I had visions of the Phil being dragged off of Augusta National.
Imagine getting mad your opponents ball moved 2 cm
The guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. His rule references are from 2018 and prior. There is no rule 26. The standard for determining whether a player is penalized was changed in 2019, and is covered in Rule 9.
The golf gods always make it right because he finished the tournament T12 and final round of 76.
Which would explain why Koepka lost the Master's on the final round due to the cheating incident between his caddy and Gary Woodland's during round #2.
Yes I do believe in the golfing Gods.
Just change the rules of golf to the laws of golf, then it could be settled in a Supreme Court. Rules are made for children, laws are made for adults who know better.
Harris clearly grounded his club and had addressed the ball. He knows the truth and should be assessed a 1 stroke penalty.
Why is there a rule regarding ball movement where the player hasn't touched the ball? So, what is the big deal about ball movement when the player is addressing the ball and has not touched the ball? What if an earthquake occurred to cause the ball to move at the precise moment the player addresses the ball? Should the player be penalised for that? The rule is ridiculous and why I won't play tournament golf.
What makes this more perplexing is the rules official was English. The player involved has a last name of English. But, the tournament was held in the United States. Yes, the same United States that won its freedom from the English. So, does the English rules official say SCREW AMERICA rule against the American named English? Or does the English rules official join the American named English and say SCREW THE ENGLISH? This could easily start another war between the Americans and the English. But when you get right down to it, it would be the ENGLISH versus the ENGLISH. I’m so confused right now.
This is why some are turned off on golf. Golf needs a major rules change that makes sense. In the end did any of this matter? Get lawyers out of the game.
Murkey. The question should be did he hit the ball or no.
I suppose the rules are not written that way.
However to address the ball, you must place your club immediately behind the ball.
Where exactly is immediately?
Immediately would be a location, where there is no middle between ball and club.
So that means contact. The only place a golf club could be where it was immediately ahead or behind the ball is where the golf club head is in contact with the ball from ahead or behind. That means you don't address a ball until you have made contact with it. However, if you are on the side, you are allowed to hit it? That makes zero sense.
This rule is ridiculous…if the ball wiggles a little but doesn’t move more then a sixteenth or eighth of an inch or maybe rocks a little due to the turf/ ground lie or maybe a stiff wind when the player begins his pre shot routine it should not be a penalty…
If the player appears to have improved his lie by a purposeful action (there are cameras everywhere) that’s a different issue. This rule sets up the player to look like he is possibly cheating and can cause nothing but bad vibes all around.
A 550 yard hole and the player gets a penalty stroke for a ball that possibly barely moves as he begins a pre shot routine …dump the rule.
Why not address the elephant in the room. I mean when you hit a great tee shot down the middle of the fairway and it ends up in a divot that someone couldn’t be bothered to replace and you can’t get a drop. I can’t believe a rule hasn’t been brought in to fix this issue.
If Harris grounded his club, he's guilty. If Harris didn't ground his club, no penalty. So the question is, did he lay the sole of his club on the ground in or around the vicinity of the golf ball? Does anyone know?
Unfortunately with the way PGA Golf is going and with the amount of money now involved for each and every stroke in the final count. The "Breaches" are becoming more and more prevalent and I feel you can nearly find an example of this every tournament. Not only saying that but for years it seemed that the Rules Officials would also "manipulate" the rules to suit the elite, for example Tiger Woods' 11 man "loose impediment" or Phil Mickelson's "picked up ball" from the OB Carpark. We all have to remember that MONEY speaks it's own language and the game will never be the same for it.
Tiger was legally allowed to have that rock moved. It is in the rules. The rock was loose so could be moved. How many people have to do it makes no difference.
@@BatMan-oe2gh Yeah I get that it’s in the rules, the question comes down to how you define “loose” if it takes that many to move it.
@@stephenpage7974 I didn't make the rules, and even I thought Tiger pushed the rules in that instance. The rules official deemed it was a loose impediment, so Tiger could do what he did as the rules official green lighted it. Cheers
Are you kidding? Most weekend golfer’s entire rounds are rules infractions.
Should’ve been penalized one-stroke for causing the ball to move because it was an address mode and should’ve been also penalized another stroke for not placing the ball back in its original place that is meaning of two-stroke penalty
I lost out on making my high school team when a dude hit a ball OB, had to walk back and replay #9 with our group behind, took four more shots to reach the green, 3 putts and disappears. He allegedly wrote down a 6 and took off, yet with several witnesses the coach called it "hearsay" and miffed it. Needless to say I missed out and he went on to be the worst player in the entire conference.
You ever want to talk about "violations", just go no further than "drops". Since the latest "morph" of the "drop" rules, I have seen countless examples of "throws" as opposed to "drops". IMHO a "drop" is an action where the hand is motionless/still at the drop-height and the ball is simply released vertically to complete the "drop". Time and again, and I'm including the best players in the World, the ball is dropped while the hand is in motion. Again IMHO, this is not a "drop", it's a throw. The whole "drop" action has now become a strategy to have the ball "react" as it hits the ground to enable a possible landing outcome. Trouble is, if you challenge the top players in the World, you'll get butchered for it.
This is so dumb. Golf needs to make room for these clearly-inadvertent events.
gosh, you have got the whole thing drastically wrong! There are only 25 Rules. Prior to 2019, ball at rest moved was governed by Rule 18-2, since then, by Rules 9.2 and 9.4. Since 2019, the words "address" and "hazard" no longer exist in the Rules. Under the current Rule 9.2, the player is not guilty unless there is knowledge and virtual certainty that he caused the ball to move. You were probably quoting the pre-1984 Rule Book (Rule 26? Were you even born then?). In those days, the player was guilty unless proven innocent; now the player is innocent unless proven guilty.
This is golf everyone cheats, take someone golfing and find out what kind of person he is. 😂😂😂
same rule should apply to the entire course NO MATTER WHAT, as it is when accidently making ball move off the tee in tee box, no penalty re-tee it and hit it, rule 6.1a,, NO INTENT should be the governing idea to all shots or strokes whether in your stance or not, other drive me crazy rule not allowed to fix a ball mark OFF the green in your line, the governing rule should be 13.1c(2) for the entire golf course
This really is a pretty dumb rule in the first place because if you ground the club behind the ball and cause it to move it's probably going to be a worse lie than what you had because gravity will cause it to become lower to the ground. How exactly is that gaining an advantage? To me the rule should always have been if at any point you ACCIDENTALLY cause the ball to move away from the green that you notify your playing partners and put it back exactly as it was. That would make much more sense.
It's a nonsense of a rule. An intentional stroke to move the ball should be involved
A ball can oscillate without penalty. This means that it does move but does not change position. That’s it. I’m sick of crybabies and better known players getting their way.
By stepping up to take your shot, it does not mean you have yet addressed you ball. You have to set up to it... if the ball moves as you step up to address it, you can notify your playing partners, and replace the ball to it's original position... and carry on. Harry Hall (and his caddie) never saw what happened and he misunderstood Harris English's description of what occurred. They immediately drew their own (incorrect) conclusions and let their emotions ruin their own day/game. Golf is a game of honor and it has a way of working in tandem with karrma and together they make the necessary adjustments. I leave players (in competition) make their own decisions, right or wrong but I'm there to assist and not insist because in the end, they will have to face the Golf Gods... and I don't want any external situation to affect MY game.
THERE IS NO RULE 26!! However, if it can be shown that the player caused the ball to move, yes, it’s a one stroke penalty, whether he addressed the ball or not.
It’s Rule 9.4.
Frankly, I expected better from your channel than a headline like this "PGA TOUR player CAUGHT CHEATING LIVE!!". The presumption of guilt here is massively more noticeable than the presumption of innocence which he, and every person, deserves. a) You were not there, b) the Rules official made the ruling...and that's it. Leave the cheating up to people like P. Reed and leave the 'sensationalism' (of your headline ) to other less-scrupulous presenters.
Amen...I detest these click-baity titles
Agreed, more importantly it appears to me and only from the evidence I have seen and heard from viewing the telecast the correct ruling which is 9.4 was made. The fact that showing rule 26 point something during the video does not exist and has not for several years just goes to the credibility of this channel
@@glenwood9190 Absolutely right...this channel’s credibility is under REAL threat. If he carries on like this, or thinks he needs to just to get viewers, he’ll be looking to get a job on Fox News 🤪
This is what sucks about Professional golf. The ball moving 5mm before the ball is struck means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and this is foolishness. Especially when you consider there are starving children in the world. ( I know it’s an unrealistic comparison but seriously)
Golf has a growing honesty problem -boy do I have some stories -but I don’t think Harris English is the problem.
Imo this highlights how terrible the pga tour handles rulings specifically on live tv.
This official should have been notified immediately this was on tv and to hang on as they review it.
Harris imo did everything he could to explain the situation.
Part of the problem with not watching the coverage -whether officials or commentators - is the story gets skewed.
The other bigger problem is the rules themselves.
The question that must be asked: considering the rules now pardon moving the ball accidentally on the green -so long as it’s replaced-and considering when the ball is not on the green the difference between one stroke and two strokes is based if the player replaces the ball. So the precedent is set for a player picking up the ball and replacing it to save a stroke. So why not make it one stroke (or two) if played from the new spot but NO penalty stroke if it was moved inadvertently and replaced with every intention to recreate the lie exactly as it was. Of course playing partners should play a role in that. And of course the player cannot have moved it on purpose or through anger.
As we learned in the legend of bagger Vance, no class gofer wants to win that way. Sometimes courses are too spongy. Unless a player does something abnormal, it should just be replaced. Officials should be always how often it happens to any player ..and it should need to be used often.
Had an opponent in a 4 ball match who followed us around all day making sure we played by the rules. On the 2nd hole of sudden death he judges his ball to be in casual water when it was actually in a drainage area crossing the fairway that had rocks in the bottom of it. I called him out and said that's a creek and there is no free drop. Really pissed him off especially when I strapped a 7 iron approach on the next hole to win. We exchanged a lot of words at that point. I asked the pro when I got back to the clubhouse and he said it was definitely a creek and no free drop.
Fantastic, knowing and playing by the rules more often helps than hinders.
Good Grief! Some of these rules are ridiculous. What did it move a millimeter.?
I know right it is silly when you think about
So you are saying a little bit is alright. Tell me how much is a little bit? 1mm, 2mm, 5mm or just a little to get it out of the depression the ball is lying in. The ball is hanging over the edge of the hole it is only a little bit should we count that as in? There is only a little bit of the ball in the penalty area that’s ok?
Your statement of him addressing the ball and the ball moves is a violation. That is a blatant misread of the rules. It says a golfer has to ground his club. It is only as he makes a stance in a hazard that that ruling applies as you stated it. Wake up!
PRO'S?????? What happened to our school system?
The rules official has failed to get the correct information. English said "when it first moved it {the club} was right here" which I'm sure was true. The official has then made his decision based on this statement. But that isn't enough information to arrive at a decision because there was clearly more than one movement of the ball, based on the statement by English, why else would he have used the phrase "first moved"?
The official should have then asked "but did it move again after you addressed the ball?"
Because, based on all the other evidence available, presumably it did?
The guy just outright lied to the rules official, if he thought that ball was moving in the slightest, he would have stepped back and not addressed it. Why would he take the risk?
are you his eyes and brain? its inconclusive. maybe he was on autopilot. or thought nothing of it or didnt register at all until he was at address
Since you were there to see the entire "episode", We'll just take your word for it.
I hope my lawyer is as smart as this guy.
Where we putting this in relation to Reeds… numerous brushes with the rules? Is it on par, is it worse because he knew as soon as he spoke to Hall what the repercussions were going to be and knew what to say to the official to influence the ruling in his favour..
it’s the intent which needs to be questioned.
Why was Rory not called out for knowing the rules about his ball being embedded but all of sudden didn't know the rule of where the drop should had been?
2:37 time mark: Rule 26-1(iv)(b) _ I don't understand where you got your information.
The current rules only go up to Rule 24 and under the old rules, Rule 26 covered water hazards. Moreover, the quoted Rule 26-1(iv)(b) is strikingly in error when it says "the ball shall be played as it lies." Under both the old rules and the new rules, the ball must be replaced at its original spot. Failure to do so incurs the general penalty of two strokes.
As to the Harris English controversy, I'd characterize it as "much ado about nothing". Players are expected to play the game with integrity, therefore PLAYERS ARE TREATED AS IF THEY HAVE PLAYED WITH INTEGRITY. The rules officials reviewed whatever video was recorded of the event and were satisfied that no penalty was warranted. Nuff said.
The rules say if the ball moves AFTER the player has grounded his club. So the only question is did he address the ball AND ground his club. If he didnt`t ground his club there is no penalty.............
The act of “addressing “ the ball is not clear.
Correct me if I’m wrong but grounding the the club behind the ball constitutes having addressed the ball.
I never ground any of my clubs.
PenguinGolf
Rory poked his finger in the side of a bunker and said his ball was embedded. He should have let the playing partners and the officials be the ones to move the ball and make the determination. Harris English is no better than anyone else who takes advantage of the rules. Patrick Reed is not the only golfer to bend the rules!!!! With the amount of money at stake, I'm surprised we don't see or find out about more improprieties, and outright cheating. Maybe if the penalty was a 5 tournament suspension the cheating would cease.
Balderdash!!! Rory didn’t poke a hole in the side of the dirt wall of the bunker and then push an extra ball or his original ball back in the poked hole to then claim it was embedded.with Schefler’s ball also in the sand of the same bunker. We are expected to believe that he, Schefler, would not notice because Rory has the slight of hand of a Vegas magician. The video clearly showed Rory digging the very embedded ball out of the wall. This is a totally fabricated story, PERIOD!!
Title is spot on! English changed the narrative once his playing partner called him out on the rule and what penalty is entailed. While waiting for official, English/caddie constructed a story that they knew could only be ruled on by the "Honor Code". So who comes out in the end looking like the dishonest player with this forever tainting his record, the playing partner who knew the rules of the game. English knew there was no video footage nor even an official within sight.
English's caddie " lied under oath" for reasons unknown.
Verdict: On the count of First Degree Cheating the official ruled not guilty. English clearly lied and got away with it. The 3 penalty strokes added to score card would not only result in higher finishing place, but more importantly, a much lower paycheck.
My opinion on preventing these incidents in the future, "body cams" that are placed on under side of bill of hat and only placed by tournament official right before the player enters #1 tee box of round 1.
So, practice swings and he sees the ball move, but doesn't say anything? Only when he's grounded the club behind the ball does he stop and says, "Oh, by the way, the ball moved when I was taking my practice strokes"? Maybe he just wanted to finish his routine before bringing it up? Hmmm...
"So we have to take the players word for it", but now we're not. Uh???
If he originally deemed it necessary to inform the people around him that there was a possible problem, then deciding to use terminology to rules official to abdicate him of the responsibility indicates he has changed the wording to his benefit. Which is not playing the game as it is intended therefore cheating, but the rules official can only work from what he is told.
This should be shame on the player who by announcing the movement of the ball to all around him at the time should be ashamed.
I walked up to my ball the other day on a steep slope and it began moving down the slope . I think the vibrations from my steps made it move . It ended up another 20 feet further from the hole . I then addressed the ball and it moved another 3 feet ! A stroke penalty or 2 strokes if I did not move it back nearer to the hole seems ridiculous to me ! 😂
You are looking at the old rules before the overhaul a few years ago. Please check current Rule 9.2
No he didn't cause the ball to move and You're just going to have to take his word. Not known as a cheater on tour so give him the benefit of the doubt.
Wow, I didn’t think there was anything I could care less about. Gentleman’s game. Accept what he said and move on. People act like that inch it moved gives some unfair advantage.
don't confuse addressing the ball with grounding the club
Stupid rule anyways. Moving a ball a dimple or two on a 400 yard hole does not change the shot very much.
The rule refers to grounding the club. I may be wrong but I think I’ve read elsewhere that club head being in contact with top of long-ish rough does not constitute grounding. “Addressing the ball” does not constitute grounding, an earlier post correctly referred to J Nicklaus’ career-long practice. Also agree with earlier post about headline. Our opinions are not proof.
You called the American golfer a "Cheater " with NO proof!! Not only did he not get penalized after a 1 hour investigation, the playing partner never said a word. But, we American's have known about the bitterness & hatred European's have towards us. Where would European players make a living? They would have to travel the world if not for an American tour which pays in U.S.D., not euros. You want fair play, do a video on Rory like this video!!
This happens to every golfer multiple times per round if not per hole. Stupid rule.
They need to change the rules if its not intentional movement of the ball by the player,
he should get to replace it without penalty , i love the game but some of the rules are just insane!
Talking about rules.. are there any that state you can't use a mini driver with a 460cc head?
Well I got told by a Pro that the rules state that a ball can move but not off it's original spot at address, meaning if the ball had moved for Harry but then went back to the original spot then it's fine otherwise it's a penalty
If you are reporting what the Pro said precisely he is correct, apart from the fact of using the word address, the definition of the term moved is as follows,
“When a ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so).
This applies whether the ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot.
If the ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, the ball has not moved.”
So it is not only at address, it could be when trying to remove a twig or stone, or anything that is defined as a loose impediment. It could be an outside influence, another ball, animal etc.
The issue here is not whether the ball moved, it did, that was undeniably established. The issue is who or what caused the ball to move. Rule 9.4 is the rule that covers this situation. What is misleading, no incorrect, is this channel displayed a rule 26 point something which does not exist and has not for some years.
So in short, for the player to receive a penalty under rule 9.4 it has to be known or virtually certain the player or his caddy caused caused the ball to move. In the rule definitions “virtually certain” is 95% or more. From the broadcast audio and vision I have seen, and from a reported further 60 mins of investigation by tournament officials, it appears to me and obviously to them that the correct decision and outcome was made. Good golfing
@glenwood9190 yeah I agree with everything you have said and that was what the pro told me as well, though it was a while ago when he said it. What is really misleading is when the guy said about the ball moving but never mentioned how much it moved or if it moved off it's spot