Roman Complains About Weird New "Christians" and "Jesus" Son of Panthera (177 AD) True Word, Celsus
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Extracts taken from:
Celsus, as quote by Origen:
www.earlychrist...
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The way you are able to capture the emotions of a writer who's been dead for centuries with your inflection is really remarkable. Another brilliant production.
Ay.
th-cam.com/video/Uz49mbDVwM4/w-d-xo.html
Blah blah blah
I feel like If this writer was brought to the real world he'd be a mod on r/atheism
@@rekt_yer_nan_darding_5788 I mean, if you had almost nothing to compare Christianity to, it does sound incredibly stupid. I mean, it sounds incredibly stupid anyways, but imagine if you had no reference to these weird smelly hippie cultists wander into your city. I'd be weirded out even more than I already am by Christians.
Yeshua ben-Pantera died in 31 AD as executed by queen Helena
"yeah well my gods could totally beat up your gods" - Most Roman thing ever
They had an actual ritual where they destroyed the gods of a city before they conquered it. Even if you didn't believe in that, it had to be fairly demoralizing for the defenders...
And the irony being eventually the Christian god prevailed, as the Roman Empire adopted Christianity.
@@S-North Not adopted , so much as Mandated .
@@S-North It uses Christianity, though not for much longer. All that Christianity is and has been, is provably worship of the Sun. The one you call jesus is Horus. Christians are daft, through and through, from the start to this day.
@@S-North And now thank fuck Christianity is on the decline (in all developed nations with a robust education system).
The casual mention of his belief that Egyptians could perform miracles shows that elites from rich countries have been looking at even more ancient cultures as sources of mysterious knowledge or enlightenment for thousands of years before us.
As a matter of fact lots of Egyptian still nowadays believe in sorts of magic and expelling demons from the body. Just amazing how such beliefs can transcend generations, religions and cultures.
Exactly. You should look into the thunderbolts project, specifically the polar configuration and Dave Talbotts work
shows that evil sinners are desperate to try to undermine and belittle Jesus. I mean, I already believed there was magicians in Egypts, but Aarons staff ate theirs God can turn egyptian staff in to a lizard but he can feed that lizard to Aarons lizard, because he is God and can do it.
The Bible itself says during the Seven Plagues; their God (Yahweh) sent plagues on Egypt, though the Egyptian Priests were able to mimic the same "Magic/Power" that Yahweh sent forth. Everyone in ancient times believed the Egyptian Priests had powers beyond normal man. Of course Giza Plateau just reinforced the imagination of foreigners.
Sadly, stupidity and credulity are not modern inventions. Just like there are idiots today who believe in "traditional" medicine, doubtless there were those millennia ago partaking of their own uncritical acceptance of something unsupported even by evidence of their own time.
So the Romans basically were just like "Yeah he was probably just a perfectly ordinary sorcerer with delusions of grandeur"
I mean, true.
Egyptians were famous for "magic" tricks, which were understood by more educated Romans to be just tricks. Some of their tricks were athletic, example juggling.
Hence why Celsius called them "jugglers" and not sorcerers.
When superstition is so advanced to be skepticism.
@@tylerdurden3722 I must have missed the Egyptian magic trick of raising the dead and walking on water. Maybe it was after the juggling routine 🙃
@@bluesdealerthose tricks are still done today. word is spread by mouth and many believe it to be true. what's the difference.
"the most notorious of persons, tax gatherers.....and FISHERMEN!"
Jesus be like:
That was the whole point!!!
Funfact: No one liked fishermen because it was seen as a dirty and mundane job. Fishermen were all illiterate and had no education, like the apostles.
Imagine the smell of a fisherman in an age before soap, in the hot mediterranian sun no less.
You have to understand how ancient men and women are different from us today. You, even if you deny Christ and curse his name, are a descendent of a group of radicals that believed all life was precious and valuable. It cannot be understated how irrational and impractical this actually is. To ancient peoples, the idea that a slave was just as human as his master was completely unthinkable.
@@mike-0451 based on what? As if most people in any nation could afford slaves!
Hell, I. Rome I think second gen slaves were free men, and slaves could sue, or have higher stations than free men if they were highly trained or liked
I love it how you can almost hear the eye roll at Jesus learning miracles in Egypt, then returning to Israel and proclaiming He's God. Like everyone could do that back then, and it was just another Tuesday.
There have always been Magicians and Snake Oil salesmen. Some of them just claim to be god.
@علي ياسر Magicians are just illusionists. Magic doesn't exist in this world, and some men are worse than demons.
@علي ياسر
Nah man, it's just illusion
Jesus definitely wasn't the only one to attempt it. He was just the most successful. Every era has scores of people that try to do the same thing with varying degrees of success. For every Joseph Smith there's ten David Koreshes.
Miracle workers were a dime-a-dozen back in those days: Simon the Magician, who supposedly lost a miracle contest to the Apostle Peter in Rome; Honi HaMe'agel, who supposedly stood in a circle and said he would not step out unless God made it rain - whence upon it rained; or Appolonius of Tyana, a 'Pythagorean Jesus', who performed miracles, traveled to India, and gathered a following, who even Christians did not deny worked wonders - but supposedly did so by being in league with demons.
This is so incredibly interesting. I’ve never heard a direct account on early Christianity from an outside perspective before. Would love to hear more like this
Check out the book The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, by Robert Wilken. It includes our friend Celsus here, plus Pliny, Porphyry, and the emperor Julian, all with historical context.
There's a pretty good amount of them as historical records go, people just don't like to acknowledge them.
@@Gorboduc Thank you, I'll check it out
@@universalis8208 I wonder why not....heh
It's not really direct. It's a Christian author quoting another person.
"It's no big deal jesus we have all seen Egyptian magic before" 😂
@user-jw6ty4gd7q Jesus didn't changed anything. It was Paul who did it and even claimed of an apparition from Jesus.
@user-jw6ty4gd7qwait.. so what you’re saying, publicly, is that Jesus was one of The Founding Fathers?
@@theunholyone2505Paul and his disciplines ruined Christianity. He wasn't even an apostle
@@falconeshield he started Christianity
@@falconeshield At least Paul had positive things to add. What do you have to add after 2000 years of collective knowledge and even the internet? Be more humble.
This actually a pretty good example of how the Romans expected Gods to act like Gods. Powerful . Tireless. Awe inspiring. Its also interesting that he is ecumenical in his way, regarding all the polytheists as worshiping the same gods regardless of their name.
More of a perennialist then ecumenical but close. Keep in mind that was one of the many interpretations of the God's nature prevalent at the time.
Many pagans believed foreign gods were their own. It's called interpretatio graeca.
He sounds like a New Atheist. Where is the Roman Empire now?
@@PlateArmorUnderwear everywhere in western (and parts of the eastern) world, look no further then two largest Christian denominations itself, Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the Romans (when fighting wars in the Britain) also thought that the gods of the Brittons were just as real as their own gods, and they were very afraid of angering them.
"Jesus having gathered around him... the very wickedest of tax gatherers and fishermen..." this made me laugh.
Lot of people don't know Andrew was the origin of the happy fisherman t-shirt, shameful past
@@itsmannertime happy fisherman shirt? Never heard of nor seen one.
It's the cartoon of some fisherman getting sucked off by a trout while wading, just walk into any weird run down fishing supply place and you'll see it
@@itsmannertime humanity hasn’t changed one bit, of course I expect nothing less.
Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word
Rome, 177 AD - Who are these silly Christians?
Rome, 380 AD - Christianity is our official religion.
Rome: who are these Christians
Also Rome: we are
Powerful way to control the masses. They loved it. Then made themselves saints to become immortal as "gods"
Yh its like asking the homeless broke guy how he needed up where he is.
“At first very slowly and then extremely fast ”
Rome, 2022 AD - Christianity is still our official religion and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Goes to show a lot can change in 200 years
Remarkable! How so little has changed in the ongoing debates. And incredibly insightful in how the ancient thinkers perceived their times. Great work!
I like the "how could there be days before the sun even existed?" question
Sol doesn't create time. ;x
Computer brain moment
@@ProfessorShnacktime I meant it's a funny thing to think about and not that it's a good argument against christianity.
@@gabrielabrahao4383 It is a quippy little point lol. My apologies for being rude.
@@ProfessorShnacktime no worries, buddy :D
Romans back the never could have foreseen that not only would Christianity become their state religion but that the very city of Rome itself would be the seat and core of Christendom.
And that their empire would slowly die partially thanks to it
catholicism. Big difference it is a marian cult meant to destroy Christianity in the long run. It is why they did all that mass murder and rape all around the world in Jesus name. We are supposed to let them convince us that we are smarter now, grown up, evolved we do not need those pesky religions to scare us in to slavery or obedience. They tell us this as they make us slaves in brave new world.
@@vulpes7079 I would argue that Christianity slowed the collapse and gave the empire another 100 years it wouldn't have had otherwise.
Same thing happened to Mecca
@@voidremoved Yes, I second that Christianity helped the empire persist longer. Viz-a-viz Constantine re-uniting the empire as a Catholic. Also, without the Church, we would not have the Bible, as the Church created the bible in the 320's. Then you must also ask yourself if the Catholic Church is not the seat of Peter/the Apostles, then what is? How did they transfer their hierarchical power down throughout the ages? What is the seat of power of these bishops today? We have become students of history and determine where the will of God has progressed throughout the centuries, and then look around as say: "If not Catholicism, then what else fits the bill? What else has had the continuous power to interpret God's word since the beginning of Christianity?" If we cannot determine this, then we are lost, subject to the whims of interpretation of whatever leaders we may be under, including ourselves.
"Jewish egyptian magician says he's a god, dies in the most disgraceful way, allegedly resurrects than flees somewhere in the sky." news headlines of the edition of "Tempora"
This edition of Tempora was brought to you by the Capitoline Brotherhood of Millers. True roman bread for true Romans.
He didn't "flee somewhere in the sky"
He moved back in with his dad, and he promised he would be back soon.
Now, I know he's been offline for 2,000 years, but that doesn't mean he's dead.
What about them?
Islam is a fake religion, Muhammed (PBUH) was a charismatic pedophile. He didn't speak for Allah.
@علي ياسر Jesus refers to John the Baptist as the greatest of all the prophets (Matthew 11:11). But John the Baptist refers to Jesus as being so highly esteemed that he is not worthy to untie his sandals (John 1:27). So, while I will not insult someone you esteem so highly, these passages do not leave room for any additional revelations.
When they call Jesus a "demon" they are probably referring to him as a demos which is just a Greek name for a supernatural being and doesn't have a negative connotation
Daemon.
Daemon is just a voice in your head, I don't think they are not calling him demon
@@FeelMetalMan
They probably called him a daemon
Daemon is the word from which demon comes from, demon is just a version of that word with negative connotations.
Lol
Or the fact they knew it was a Jewish invention to control the gentiles and make them worship Jews…
Damn I can’t believe Romans invented Reddit
Explains why they were all gay and hated women
@@Munchkino feeling called out, I see
If Celsus had a fedora, he would have tipped it.
@@Munchkino found the redditor
@@Munchkino an emotional kneejerk reaction so typical of an atheist. Reminiscing of r/atheism violating every single logical principle there is, thinking them arguments to be refuted.
I like how one of his major criticisms of Jesus basically amounts to "He was a loser".
Such a loser that instead of remembering him who criticized Jesus, billions in the world have Jesus present in their hearts today instead
The memory of those so called philosophers and rulers in their time have passed away, Jesus Christ has not
Criticizing Christianity for not being badass enough is about as Roman as it gets.
Read
Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word
This was the downfall of the Romans in my opinion, an complete misunderstanding of their neighbors and their issues.
The Romans basically just chose to either ignore or persecute Christians, proving the whole point of christianity and how Christians considered Rome as evil and unforgiving, most Romans who joined Christianity were sick and tired of the corruption and hedonism that had taken place in the positions of power. Basically, Christianity offered salvation to people who had no other option.
I mean... He has a point. If you met someone today who only convinced 12 people he was god, and 2 of them betrayed him and 8 denied knowing him, would you not find it skeptical?
As a Christian the rant about why the all powerful God needs to take a rest day along with the complaint about how could there be days before days existed had me rolling
I thought the rest day argument was pretty funny too.
"Your God has to take breaks?" *rolls eyes*
That's because many people aren't interested in knowing what it meant to the Hebrews and instead go by their cultural understanding.
That was pretty funny. With that being said, I wish I could've had a conversation with this author. His understanding of Christianity seems incomplete, and yet very close at the same time.
@@dokidelta1175 It's complete enough. The ad-hoc justifications for the inconsistencies and contradictions of the religion don't really add much.
you arent supposed to be on an Atheist Channel.
Man, this guy really put a lot of stock in the mystical powers of Egyptians.
That brings up the question, if the Egyptians could do such incredible "magic" tricks, why weren't they hired by the Emperor or rich Romans in every province?
About as much stock as those who believe in a virgin birth, one would say.
So did the authors of the Bible, which borrowed heavily from Sumerian and Egyptian mythology
@@jmchez Indeed
Hu?
"Don't the Jews know Hesiod wrote all that stuff first?" - I don't know why that made me laugh so hard.
Who is Hesiod.?
@@philsimes5210 Do not come to this channel with a head full of empty space
@@iSyriux useless answer
Ancient poet who came after Homer but before Sappho and the lyricists. He wrote a work called the Theogony which is about the creation of the Greek gods and their war against the Titans. Dates from around 750 BC.
@@iSyriux stupid comment. shameful that you got upvotes
It is mind-blowing how much of what he says sounds EXACTLY like modern day objections, and how, as he said, many Jews and Christians refute his objections by saying that the texts are allegorical. It shows to some degree that religion did not exist back then simply because people were all gullible and dumb, as some people claim today.
I mean when Christians criticised or made fun of pagan mythology, pagans at the time would also just reply by saying that it was all allegorical and that Zeus didn’t commit adultery or rape his own daughter, but instead the stories meant something else.
*>people have thought this thought before*
which makes it any less stupid?
I rather when Christians defend their texts saying they are allegorical than fundamentalist evangelicals, who believe the texts to be literary truth.
It's the second group who are most dangerous to science, who want creationism taught at schools etc
Or theists today, are as gullible and dumb as theists 2000 years ago.
@@BronzeOrwin Some people have been stupid before, and some people have been smart enough, before, to know it's allegorical.
The Roman’s were the definition of confidence and arrogance all at once. I always get a chuckle out of how their “diplomats” practiced diplomacy. There’s a well known story of one diplomat drawing a circle around a foreign king with his staff. and telling him to have a decision made by the time he steps out of the circle. 😂
I like when Crassus lost to the Parthians who were a horse riding nation therefore they looked at non horse riding people as servants therefore all of their major treaty has to be made on both side sitting on horsback he came to the talks on foot because his back hurt or something like that.
Like: _I don care I'm a Roman I gonna walk my back hurt dammit lol_
And the Parthians took it as an offense because it was like a servant come to talk about peace with a winning general. I like how even when he lost a war and was beaten very badly he was still arrogant enough to try to act like Rome is the ruler of the world.
@@Zodroo_Tintto be fair, we also know that he was very shocked by the death of his son by the time, and wasn't holding it very well. Might be less "to hell with them!" and more "my soldiers poked me with sticks until I came here and they didn't poke me at a horse before".
Can I get a source for that, mate? I'd like to read more about it.
I believe the story is on Gaeus Popillius Laenas and king Antiochus IV Theos Epiphanes
Reminds me of my country
The Romans criticisms of the Judeo Christian God are pretty hilariously Roman, like: he's too "weak" to even convince the one man he created to follow him properly. It's literally accurate but simultaneously misses the point.
Yeah or he didn't crown himself king but life a meek life hahaha really shows the Roman pride
The idea of a voluntarily humble and vulnerable god was completely alien to the Roman way of thinking. It must have seemed incredibly contradictory to them. But that attitude meant they completely missed the emotional appeal of Christianity, and that persecution would just strengthen it.
The elves think of Jesus like modern day Christian’s think of Mormans.
@@danielkellyuk Exactly. One might say the Romans were all about concrete things. Lol, I'll see myself out.
@@VikingMuayThai Wait, Lord of the Rings?
I want more of this content; religions and their opponents at the time of that religions inception. This is fantastic. Islam, Mormonism, Buddhism in Japan maybe? So long as the sources exist, the potential content is endless
Buddhism getting chased out of its native India was probably an interesting debate. 🤔
Why do you want content like that? There’s not many because most of the world didn’t write things down, and what was written down most likely was destroyed from fires or misplaced or lost. Why Mormonism? There already exists written accounts of islam and mormonism, and both are absurd and clearly you can see where the source of their ideas came from, as in they simply perverted Christianity and manipulated it and also perverted and incorporated Judaism, and for islam also perverted and incorporated Zoroastrian and arabic paganism.
What already exists that has survived the test of time is enough you can study on your own. There are plenty of books and papers written about these sources, and from those books you can source and read the original documents yourself.
I find modern humans so lazy in their research, full of hubris and lack of diligence to alleviate their own ignorance about what already is known and exists. Instead they stay ignorant and think they know more than others to confirm their own biases and beliefs. Never once really challenging their own worldviews or admit their level of ignorance.
This isn’t an attack on you. I just find more recent generations having these qualities, as well as so called pseudo intellectual types like atheists.
Criticism of Islam? Lol bheading will take place man Islam is not mature
@@I_discovered_civilization fair points and I agree that they are perverted representations of the source material. However, this guy wants the historical arguments in the past. Not the current ones. Because it's entertaining, not because it has super great value which I agree with too. I know plenty about Mormonism and Islam but hearing the voices of the past would be cool to hear about the topic.
@@I_discovered_civilization calm down m'lady
Imagine if you could somehow talk to the dead and tell this guy about the Holy Roman Empire and the crusades.
Great comment
Bro if i could talk to the dead you can bet i won't be using it to clown on people before finding out as much about history as i can
@@GBlockbreaker that's why they only give wishes to idiots
The not Holy not Roman and not Empire?
He'd think they were mediocre failures that could, maybe, be grouped with the most rudimentary of Roman conquests; a sure upgrade for the pacifist, weak christians but certainly nothing to ride home about.
I love how one of his main arguments basically boils down to poor people being gross and so they wouldn’t or shouldn’t be favored by a deity.
They are gross tho
It's because this video is propaganda. It's not some Roman it was a professional Roman acting in bad faith and biased, specifically hired by the state to attack Christianity for political reasons.
unless im mistaken i heard him say that statements jesus himself is supposed to have said came from plato.... you, aswell as almost everyone in these comments is dissmissing 99.9 % of what he actually said, but for what??? he made reasonable arguments, but all you heard was "people are poor"?
that wasn't anywhere near one of his main arguments
@@bappagone299 He uses the low ranking birth of Jesus, Mary, and his disciples as evidence against Christianity’s legitimacy.
"This 'Christianity' thing is just a scam. It'll never catch on."
Good news is, it's almost done for (in first world countries). Took a while though
@@filcalippo and there goes our culture, morals, a whole bunch of world wars, and most things that are considered "good" by people, likely including you. "God is dead, and we murdered him." Nietzche wrote. But what happens after won't be pretty at all.
@@tammesikkema5322 If you need religion to give you morals, you never had any in the first place.
@@filcalippo it’s not going anywhere dawg
@@tammesikkema5322 yes, because society was perfect during the height of Christendom. There was no corruption. There were no wars, or witch hunts. Everything was just peachy.
The "How can there be days?" part was hilarious.
Because all you need is light and darkness lik
Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word
@wargames that's a year
@@wargames7775 2 Peter 3:8-9 reads:
‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
A day on earth, isn't the same as a day on Saturn, Jupiter or Mars.
I just had to pitch in on this Christmas evening for your providing me the palate cleansing highlight of my day. A breath of fresh air from millennia ago.
Thank You!
"I'm not gonna argue, debate or question christians because I already know all about then"
Yup, that roman got that reddit energy.
It’s been 2,000 years and Christians still haven’t been able to say anything of value, so can you blame them?
He knows they are dirty plebeians who believe in a nonsensically inconsistent cosmology; what else should he know? He's a rational Roman man. He doesn't have time to waste on chasing up old wives' tales.
Like christians don't speak like that themselves, mouth full of things they have no idea about
Romans were just the most annoying dude ever who coasted by on his natural gifts for a long time
same with modern Christians when they encounter other religions.
"they can not tollorate temples, alters or images"
boy did that change with time lol
Only in pagan Christianity
@@EresirThe1st He is just a Christian nutjob responding to every comment that the irony of this video is lost to him. Pay him no attention.
@@EresirThe1st
To be fair, it was the Saxons who started raiding his lands. He behaved no differently from any other conqueror did before or after him. Romans would have done worse to the Saxons. 4000? What’s in comparison to the 1 million killed by Romans in Gaul.
@@joellaz9836 he actually did behave differently. Pagan empires Rome, Persia, Macedonia let conquered peoples worship whatever they liked. There may have been exceptions i'm not aware of, but afaik Charlemagne was the first to offer only 3 options : conversion, death, or slavery. And he set up a fucking trend too.
@Gideon U yes because the christian god behaves like a spoiled teenager in her 16th birthday...
Also "christianity didn't prosecute other religions"
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaaha
Fishermen are pretty wicked… those notorious fishermen
It’s funny how modern people think ancient people are so weird for thinking that fishermen were inferior when that’s exactly what they would actually believe if they didn’t subscribe to the Christian definition of a human.
If an atheist wanted to truly act like he would, then he would crush the slave and reprobates skull under his foot because by all practical account, he is superior to them. That is, unless you believe people are possessive a spark of divinity. That’s a radical thing to believe.
@@mike-0451 what
@@sobersplash6172 read more and watch less anime. It’s rotting your brain.
@@mike-0451 to be fair, not all anime is complete coomer filth. Some actually try to tell decent stories.
I'm guessing it's because fishermen are associated with sailors and ports, which tend to have more frequent "immoral" associations?
Truly amazing to get inside the mind of somebody living in these times. TRULY miraculous.
That was how i gelt first reading Augustine
@@mithrandirthegrey7644 But I think a big part as to why it seems so "modern" is because roman culture has influenced a whole lot of western thought, in particular since the enlightenment and onwards
@@mithrandirthegrey7644 Good point, but human history is very young. Call me when we have 100.000 years of written history... shit will hit the fan. 100.000 is nothing for our species but a lot for history. It will be interesting times to study. Imagine all the books, information, historical perspectives, countries, languages, etc. Even more Overwhelming than our current knowledge.
@@josephang9927 nobody will have even a clear picture of human history.
No. The sources being cited are dubious. This entire reading should be scrapped.
Celsus was not just a random Roman, but a philosopher who had become so renowned that Origen of Alexandria (another philosopher), wrote a whole book to refute him. So this is not the view of an "average" roman, but rather a particularly learned and opinionated one.
You mean a man that make up shit to accuse the Christian?
This just shows how baffling Christianity was to the Romans. They could not image a god or demigod sacrificing himself and/or his Son for the sake of people, especially poor people, instead of the usual opposite of the people sacrificing for a god.
What they really couldn't get their brains around is that this God or demigod would sacrifice himself or his son by allowing the Romans execute him completely naked in the most shameful manner possible. Crucifixion was in the ancient Greek and Latin intimately associated with impalement and there are ancient sources that said that crucifixion involved a safer, limited form of impalement and I am not talking about nails in the hands and feet here.
Christianity is baffling to anybody.
@@vanjahruska5661 hello anybody, why is it baffling to you?
@@vanjahruska5661 Speak for yourself.
@@vanjahruska5661 But aliens from outer space are plausible lol
Don't tell this old Roman guy where the Vatican is located now.
5:15 Oh, dear Jove! Not fishermen! What dreadful scoundrels these men were!
You have to wonder if Celsus had a bad run-in with a fisherman once.
Celsus’s view of fisherman was shared with all pagans. It was extremely radical to consider people like fisherman as human beings.
Fisherman are good, but they wouldn’t be the first I would imagine to come to my help for question regarding theology and doctrine and the meaning of life.
@GaslitWorld f. Melissa B and now the opposite it true. The first will be the last and vice versa.
And tax collectors, mind you.
@@LuisAldamiz Tax collection was subcontracted to private contractors. These hired thugs for muscle.
Tax collectors were basically like loansharks.
We have these transcripts from Celsus due to the work of Origen, a Christian interested in refuting the peculiarities of pagan perspectives. Wonderful to read as an account from without and within the burgeoning faith.
Origen was himself denounced as a heretic by the Christian Church though, which means he wasn't really a Christian, but more of a philosopher with Christian influences in his ideas.
@@Hoi4o Indeed not, as his attempt to reconcile Platonic thought with Christian faith were erroneous and, retroactively, that aspect was denounced to prevent dissemination of (specific) heretical teaching. Heresy is not damnation, but a proscription against erroneous teaching. Origen was very much a Christian. Please be more judicious in your assumptions and loose use of terms ill used by pop-culture.
I do encourage you to read Origen or the early Fathers. Or better to begin with Matthew and proceed from there. All will enrich you throughout your life. God bless.
@@raggedyman2257Funny since Augustine has a lot of Plato in his ideas
Do not stop there, most Church fathers were/are deeply versed in Platonic or Aristotlian philosophy. I say, "not funny,," because they loved and appreciated the intellectual pursuit as God gave Man reason and the innate desire to seek knowledge and understanding. A difference, however, is most did not seek to bend their thoughts into definitively Christian philosophy. Consider Thomas Aquinas and his reinvigoration of Aristotle throughout Europe. He loved Aristotle not for his errors, but for his reasoning.
But then TH-cam comments are probably best suited for those unread and snarky souls.
Good luck with your pursuits.
@@raggedyman2257 My problem is not with ideas coming from diferents sources apart from the Bible. I love Kierkergard and Jung and many others the problem is when you try to inject them into theology and create an amalgamation of the truth
This guy would later be verified as the first Redditor
Best comment
haha so true honestly
Lmao
Based department?
Shit I was wondering why this video felt familiar 🤣
This guy wrote a roast. I imagine debate practices of the era weren't up to modern pedagogical standards, but damn did this guy exclusively go for the jugular.
I like how a good roast of Christianity hasn't changed in the last 1800 years.
@@jasjfl almost like the flaws are the same, 1800 years later
th-cam.com/video/Uz49mbDVwM4/w-d-xo.html
Truth here
As I have been listening to Matt Dillahunty
@@userequaltoNull explains why christianity outlived Rome and basically made a country the size of Luxembourg 10× greater than Rome.
"Jewish Carpenter God DEBUNKED" by Thunderf00tius Pessimus
that made me chuckle. He truly was the first redditor
It’s amazing how he sounds exactly like atheist TH-cam from ~2007 ish 😂. Although I guess the criticisms haven’t really changed after 2 millennium.
@@Calmzat same book same plot holes. Although this account is still a bit pre book ^^
It all did sound eeriely familiar though :p
His name was Celsus, which means Celestial. Worth pondering about.
@@gideonunger7284 no a single plot hole was mentioned in this video lol
“I have questions for the Christians, but I’m not really interested in any of their answers because I’m already an expert in everything they believe in.” Was this guy the first Redditor?
He probably knew The Gospels better than most Christians.
We have to commend his scholarship though not his carping sarcastic tone.
@@alanpennie Doubt it.
Keep coping. Tell your priests to get their hands off little boys
@@1monkey1typewriter While you can certainly believe he misunderstood them, it's very clear he has knowledge of them and has read them.
As a Chaldean, I find this script fascinating.
Love all of the work that you do and I eagerly await your videos. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Would love to see more from the ancient and classical era!
What does Chaldean mean? No troll, I really wanna know.
@@Sleepless4Life assyrians or syriacs
Damn no offense but I forget the Chaldeans continue to exist and survive as an ethnic group up to this point, like ya’ll are more ancient than Jesus and Buddha
@@Sleepless4Life ethnic group that lives in the middle east. also chaldean catholics
The Cymry (welsh) trace their migrations all the way back to ancient Chaldea. A tribe of Israel.
The myth of Jesús being son of a soldier called pantera was started by the Jews, in the gospel of John the pharesees accuse Jesus of being a "bastard" and in the Talmud there is mentioned of a "Yeshu Ben Pantera"
tell us what else is said in the talmud about jesus lmao
Could you provide some sources? would like to read more into it.
@Leo the British-Filipino TBF Jesus never actually existed, so people can and have attributed to him whatever they want to throughout history.
It makes sense consider that virgins can't conceive a baby, they would've spread the same rumor in the neighborhood that I grew up in
@@darthtiberius3716 I don't think he said Jesus was mentioned in the Talmud. Read it again.
This channel is so amazing because it can go on FOREVER. One day, this channel will post a video from this period.
Yeah, that's exactly how history works...
Readings from the comments beneath the TH-cam video "Do the dog-headed men have souls!?"
@@TheShadowOfMars I thought that video was one of the most interesting excerpts from the page.
I didn't mean that to be insulting, or rude, by the way.. It looks very snarky seeing it now, but I was just trying to be funny :)
th-cam.com/video/Uz49mbDVwM4/w-d-xo.html
...oh
I can't remember the name of who said it, but a secular scholar who studied the existence of Jesus came to the conclusion: if there ever was a solid irrefutable fact in history, it's that there was somebody named Jesus causing a gigantic ruckus in Israel and even across the Roman Empire.
In his time there were only a small gang in israel
Sounds like something TH-camr historian Metatron might have said.
Or academic historian Tom Holland but he’d be more eloquent about it.
"If there ever was a solid irrefutable fact in history, it's that there was somebody named Jesus causing a gigantic ruckus in Israel and even across the Roman Empire."
- Abraham Lincoln probably
Foolish
Tons of people have, and still do, come to that conclusion.
4:40 its interesting how he doens't just say "this didn't happen". Wouldn't it be known at that time that herod did or did not kill a bunch of babies? but his main objection is just that Jesus did not become a king, not that herod didn't kill to find him or that the magi didn't come.
what if he wasn't that deep into christian lore?
@@1000niggawatt Whether you're a believer or not, you must consider that
a.) The coming of a Messiah, King etc is a popular belief among Jews
b.)As a consequence, Herod saw this as a threat to his own authority.
Throughout history political leaders always sought to control or influence people's religious views because it can be a catalyst for rebellion or at least contribute to a state's instability.
@@1000niggawatt The point is that at that time, it would have been entirely possible to fact check and say "The Christians *say* he was visited by wise men and herod killed a bunch of babies, but that didn't actually *happen*" but he didn't say that. He just said the hope of the wise men apparently didn't come true. So we must conclude that at least this guy thought these happenings were entirely plausible, or even undisputed.
Herod most likely died in 4-1 BC, he wasn't even alive during Jesus's supposed birth.
@@tejasmisra9115 Christ likely was born around 1--2 BC. So there is a time frame it could work, even if that dating for Herod`s death was not controversial and challenged. Though if evidence could be deduced or obtained to pin down either we would have the exact likely year which, is very rare for so ancient events.
The Church Father Origen wrote a refute to this called Against Celsus.
by refute you mean cope
@@user-ye6ty9ie8g Celsus fell for the Talmudic psyop. Not someone that should be worth defending.
11:40 "…nor the sun yet revolving, how could there be days?!" If Celcus would be active on the internet today he would have added: "Checkmate, Christians!"
It is a good objection tho
@@Raadpensionaris It's a good point, but there's ways to circumvent it, like arguing that the Bible means by days as the time lenght of 24 hours, even before the Sun existed, which seems pretty logical: if humans traveled to other stellar systems, we might still keep the notion of solar days even if we're not observing it physically. There's other stuff that's far more difficult to defend, like Noah's keeping every land animal species in a boat.
@@Raadpensionaris imagine having room temperature iq
@@jmiquelmb There are stuff easy to defend like the term "day" isn't always used to mean 24hrs in the Bible, hell not even in the English language.
And Noah's flood can be soled by making it a more regional thing. Like Mesopotamia. And if you complain about the term "world" remember that is another word with futtering meanings, like even in modern day you can mean "known world", "earth", "universe" with it but nobody is making the argument that the universe was flooded so why are people ignoring that it could just have meant known world.
@@ikengaspirit3063 But anyway, how would he be able to put every single animal in the near east in a boat. And even if you could accept that, you're making a pretty large logical leap, since the bible says that everyone except Noah's family died. You're basically assuming that it's allegorical at this point, which is the common position of Christians and Jews
All your videos are very interesting, but this has to be my favorite so far. Im so glad to have stumbled across your channel, keep up the amazing work!
Truly an astounding viewpoint from such an integral time for the formation of early Christianity. Not many contemporary sources, let alone from non-believers, are well known. I thank you for this upload.
@@artemdown6609I mean literally all of the New Testament was written within 80 years of the crucifixion. ( If I recall)
@@withlessAsbestos Neither Celsus' book, the rebuttal nor the Gospels are contemporary.
@@druidriley3163 Prove to me that the Gospels do not dare to the first century.
@@withlessAsbestos *Prove to me that the Gospels do not dare to the first century* Contemporary means dating to the time of Jesus' lifetime. None of them do. The earliest are Paul's letters, which date to the mid 50s ce. Then the book of Mark which dates to the 70s ce. And since the books of Luke and Matthew copy the book of Mark, they can be dated even later than Mark. Some scholars of the book of Luke even claim that the author copies the works of Josephus, which puts the book of Luke in the 90s ce.
@@druidriley3163 Wow 20 to 60 years later, exactly what I said (also some authors claiming is by no means proof of consensus or veracity, prove to me that Luke/Acts were not written during the imprisonment of Paul in Rome as they Acts clearly states.)
Part of why I love this channel and the stories shared is hearing… well shared mythology, such as two different people both having mythology about serpents and they share similar plots (which certainly isn’t a coincidence).
It’s easy to think of the ancient world like a map, the Jews were here, Roman’s there, Christan’s here and there, but this really helps show that it was a very connected world
@@EresirThe1st that 'homogeneity' is a game of delineation
I suggest you to read Carl Jung. He claimed Serpents are special in all myths. They are a universal divine motif. Serpents are also special in human Evolution, as they have always been enemies of our ancestors.
m.th-cam.com/video/FbCoKIW0LGE/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/Uz49mbDVwM4/w-d-xo.html
177ad lol
"It was a very global and culturally diverse world #oneworld #trustfundbabiesforisrael" *sips starbucks* Get fucked right off...
Didn't realized Christopher Hitchins was alive in the Roman times.
I am slack-jawed, I had no idea a document like this existed. I am most surprised that it seems the author has actually read books of the Bible; his references are generally precise and accurate, and it doesn't sound like he's making a critique merely based on hearsay.
I'm surprised such a document was allowed to survive. Christians aren't exactly famous for being tolerant.
@@prestonjones1653 There are a surprising amount of these antichristian writings that survive. You know how? They are extensively quoted by Christian authors trying to refute them. In this case this account ("On the True Word" by Celsus) survives because the ancient Christian theologian and scholar Origen wrote a book specifically to refute his antichristian arguments (called "Against Celsus") where he rebuts each of his arguments point by point thereby unwittingly preserving Celsus's book.
Romans loved to read. They didn't have TV and pulp magazines after all lol if you ain't reading you're working. And if you ain't working or reading you're bored out of your mind in ancient Rome. This man probably read the whole ass bible in one go.
@@henrimourant9855 blessed spinoza!
His reference are correct, but the way he references them shows that he doesn't truly understand what he's reading.
Fun fact: Early Christians were called followers of "The Way"
Yes and then they were called Christians at Antioch in 42 a.d. acorrding to Acts 11:26. Then in the late first century to early second century people started calling them katholikos Christianos or Universal Christians which is where the name catholic comes from but they were called Christians first which proves catholicism is not the first church. While at first it may have been Biblical once rome got their hands in it things changed.
@@nickogle1379 Of course Catholicism isn’t the first church.
One of the oldest (if not thee oldest) church in holy land was found In Megiddo. Are you familiar with what symbol was found in the huge mosaic on the floor of this ancient church? The identical symbol of Pisces. Earlier followers of “The Way” understood the were at the forefront of a new age.
The Bible is Astrotheology.
Moses and the Golden Bull (Taurus)
Then we transition to blowing a rams horn (Aries)
The the many parables of Jesus and fish (Pisces)
And finally Luke 22:10. Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Clearly a reference to Aquarius the waterbearer
Just like clockwork (or should I say counterclockwork), the sun traveling through the zodiac goes Taurus -> Aries -> Pisces -> Aquarius
Biblical astronomy is very interesting. Robert Wadsworth is a good study on it
@@jesusisking117 Certainly
Two references to "Christians" on graffiti at Pompeii
"How could a god, when seeing these things were to happen, not avoid them?" I love how the Roman's mind was not equipped to understand this mystery, that God might willingly come and suffer in order to redeem a lost people. It flew in the face of everything Rome considered a god to be.
@RunpulatorYes.
“God” knows every possibility that will happen.
“God” knows all, but we don't. So we have free will to act.
@RunpulatorIt’s not that “God” knows who’s going to heaven or not.
It’s that “God” already knows the outcome of each decision that you may make.
“God” is not constrained to linear time essentially. There’s no like, past, present or future for it/she/he/whatever.
“God” has already experienced everything at once I believe is the rational behind that logic.
I’m not the best to explain it but I know that the assertion you have made isn’t the way it actually is.
Even the likes of Alex o’ Connor, Richard Dawkins, Hitchens etc etc don’t argue with that point you’re trying to say because they know the logic actually checks out if you dive deep enough into the church’s doctrine.
There are many other things you could point out though.
Contradictions, morality, evidence for the claim etc etc.
4:31 I find this part really interesting, as right after he mentions the corruption of the gospels by the Christians, he brings up Herod and the slaughtering of infants. Which, when reading the Romano-Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus's writings on Herod the Great, is not there despite Josephus's arguably unfavorable attitude toward Harod and his recounting of Harod's deep paranoia and descent into murderous madness in the twilight of his life.
Well I would point out that if it did happen Bethlehem was a very small town that probably had fewer then 5 child who met the criteria so it wouldn't be hard to cover up.
Different Herod, Herod founded a dynasty who were all named Herod, a rather annoying but common trait of royalty (see Louis XVIII). Back then they didn't even give them numbers, just different nicknames to tell one from the other. The one in the bible is Herod Antipas
@@drewpamon
I am aware of this, but thank you for bringing it up, especially for those who may read this unaware of that!
As a side note, it wasn’t just Bethlehem but its vicinity.
As I’m sure you’re aware granted your comment, the numbers are exaggerated wildly in different Christian traditions across regions and history.
If I remember correctly, if it occurred, biblical scholars put the number around 300 based on archeological assessment of the area. Still an abominable number of dead children…
(Insert Louis Armstrong's song "What A Wonderful World" here...)
I feel it also important to note that there are some good arguments for why Flavius Josephus may/would have not mentioned this if it occurred.
I bet many things aren't there and everything what's said in the video is the jewish view on Jesus in my opinion, how much this even is roman i don't know.
Like that his father was a roman soldier called Panterra is in the Talmud, that he is from an adulterous relationship and Mary a whore, or learned black magic in Egypt. I heard all these things many times and they were obviously made up by the jews of these times to slander Christ. Jews who followed Christ become Christians, the Jews that remained obviously had to make stuff up about him.
Well, this guy clearly knows the Christian version and NOT Josephus'.
Celsus' work elicited the writing of a point by point answer: Contra Celsum, by Origen of Alexandria, one of the major apologetics works in early Christianity, and the first one to use philosophical arguments.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_Celsum
The Wikipedia article links to several versions of this work, in Greek, English, and audio book.
Interestingly, all what is known of Celsus' work are Origen's quotes of it. So, here we are hearing both Celsus and Origen.
Thank you for this
It's interesting seeing how the arguments from Origen against Celsus seem to reflect arguments of those today of faith vs skepticism. Celsus spends much time talking on the absurdity of the stories behind the gospels, their lack of validity and how Jesus was more likely a conman and a charlatan than an actual living son of God. Origien responds to this by first starting with ad-hominem attacks against Celsus' reputation then uses theology as a counter argument rather than supplying any credible evidence of the historical events surrounding the Gospels.
@@stoobeedoo ¿How can anyone provide "credible evidence of the historical events"? At the time, it was unnecessary, since the existence itself of Jesus's followers was evidence of his existence long before the canon of the Gospels were determined. Everyone knew what a crucifixion was like, and possibly Pilato was still a recognized name. Augustus certainly was.
It is not the historical facts of the time what is the basis of Christianity. It was, and always has been, the belief of Jesus being the Son of the only living God, who resurrected among the dead. Faith. Which by definition means to believe without evidence. It's so hard, that Christian theology defines Faith as a theologal virtue, a gift given by God himself, not something you develop from your own effort or you achieve by the scientific method or you base on historical evidence.
Celsus called the Christians dumb, Origen answered, no, you are the dumb one :-) And thanks to that exchange, we got to know how those men from ancient time argued about transcendental subjects.
Come by
th-cam.com/video/Uz49mbDVwM4/w-d-xo.html
Oof origen is a big time liar who Said it was OK to lie to propagate religion so I can't really trust him. He had said some things which are almost definitely lies against other Christian groups as well to win arguments.
10:35 His observation here, "As if it were possible that the whole could be god, yet its parts not divine" Is actually a pretty beautiful statement. I think no matter what beliefs or ideals you strive to live by, you can use this reasoning before passing judgement on anything or anyone.
That's like pulling a random bible verse. It creates exasperation and says you're unreasonable.
@renelopez8227...I agree
It is an extremely ignorant statement, not an "observation".
@@friartalk6060 Which part is ignorant and why?
@@friartalk6060Not really that ignorant. Christianity only goes as far as rejoicing the "created" universe and its beauty but forbids any practice of offering to local and natural deities like the pagans did in their view of deified nature. In fact some radical catholics years ago called out a spectacle of natural footage on Saint Peter's as a pagan display
I like this Roman. He seems sarcastic and he really wondered about Jewish cosmogony.
And I’ve always asked about the concept of “days” without the very things needed to denote “days”.
He might have read Philo, who pondered this question, with profit.
Don't know if this is on point or not but the bible does not say days its referring to daytime. It's lost in the translation.
I was always taught that everything was created on the first day and the subsequent days was simply God giving everything a distinct form and nature. And in the context of the universe, there was certainly light before the sun as the sun is no where near the oldest star we know of.
@@TheNightWatcher1385 My mom has a theory that it also has to do with Moses only being able to take in so much at a time when writing everything down on Mount Sinai. If he was seeing visions from God then he'd only be able to see so much in a day, and to make things easier both for himself and the rest of the Israelites he delineated each epoch as a "day" since that's what he saw in a single day up on the mountain.
Just checked Genesis and while the actual sun and moon aren’t made until day 4, there is a prototype of the day-night cycle on day one
2:35 “I don’t have to be genuine with my questions, I already know everything.” Lmao
-Chad knower of everything
Where in the video does he say that?
He says: "I'm not asking to understand their[Christian] beliefs, for I know them[Christian beliefs] all"
Hmm, Egyptians like their magic, he has magic, he must've been to Egypt to learn some magic!
Well, if I remember well from when I read it, the gospel of Matthew says that Jesus lived in Egypt during the first years of his life with his family to escape form Herod. I don't remember how old was he when he returned though. Tbh, Jesus being some kind of magician was something that came up to me when reading about his miracles.
The whole religion is Egyptian !!! Started by Joseph and Akhenaten and moved to Amarna and exiled to the desert for 40 years (Moses) then became the Essenes(Qumran,DeadSea). Fax
@علي ياسر ? He rules for 17 years changed Egypt from poly to monotheism. Changed capitol to Amarna. Changed his name from Imenhotep to Akhenaten, and forced to flee where his son tut took over as a kid king.
Winner of Egypt's Got Talent
@@chriscutty9172yeah Sure and Cleopatra was a witch WHO Mindcontrolled men , dont believe everything Romans Claim
It’s interesting how the Roman writing has some of the same criticisms of Jesus as the Pharisees did, like when he calls out how Jesus kept “bad company” like tax collectors and fishermen.
I also find it interesting how condescending he is and things he is all smart yet comepletely misses the point if loads of things in Christianity which if he was as smart as he thinks he is would be extremely obvious to him but are not.
I understand a tax collector is a bad company but why the fishermens?
"it is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick"
Truely an ancap moment
@@Zodroo_Tint They are low born therefore obviously morally bad.
Exactly what one would think a Roman would say about Christians and their faith at that time lmao
guilty of being Roman?
"Here's Hitler's opinions on the Jewish people."
A condescending tone against working class people as well. As if he didn't appreciate how food made it to the table.
@@Kahoku53 the peasant caste has never produced great culture
Christianity was invented by Roman Stoics
Interesting that the criticisms of Jesus and Christians does not include the argument that he did not exist.
I was thinking the same thing
It was polytheistic at that tine, the roman thought that he was either a normal dude using egyptian tricks or a demi god in their pantheon.
@@sleepyguy4237 Except from these recorded descriptions of him they DO NOT refer to him as either someone using Egyptian tricks or as a demi god. They refer to him as a real living man who exists.
@@3rdSide2Story EXISTED. And not in the way it’s said today.
Pretty much everyone agrees Jesus was a historical person. Possibly a few people conflated into one over time. But Jews, atheists and academics all still think Jesus was a real person. That doesn't imply he was God though haha
I don’t think the critiques of Celsus were reviewed in Sunday School at my Baptist Church back in the ‘50’s. 🤣
As a Christian, this is an amazing and awesome point of view to have from history. It doesn’t surprise me that the same or similar questions and comments are still around today, and even back then Christians who were supposed to be ready with a defense of the faith just told this man to “not ask questions” even as they do today.
impossible to prove faith, so why bother wasting breath and energy.
It was with a slightly different context back then because at the time, Christianity was more of a mystery cult, and one only gained access to the Gospels after joining the Church.
To be fair he literally said in the beginning of his rant that he wasnt seeking answers because he already knew everything. The Bible also tells us not to waste time on people like that.
@@thecocktailian2091the entire faith rests upon an allegedly real historical event: the resurrection of Jesus. If people back then didn’t actually believe that happened, I don’t think it would’ve gained much traction. Paul even admits the whole concept is worthless if the resurrection never happened
@@tylerdavis520 They thought dragons existed, so sure.
Fascinating to hear such an early Roman perspective on this new Christianity spreading through the empire. Thank you guys for another cool video!
Stay well out there everybody, and God bless you friends! :)
I love this, it's so well voiced!
"how can god creates the earth in 7 days before he creates days?"
Priceless.
This Roman is managing to make a very convincing argument that the disciples would never have made up the things we read in the Gospels. Things like "half-frantic women" being the first to witness the Resurrection, and how Jesus' own disciples abandoned him.
Yeah, it’s funny how much this Roman sounded like the Pharisees.
This is actually a part of the Christian apologetics of the gospels.
Basically it boils down to:
"If they weren't telling the truth, they would have told a lie that was more socially permissible."
The idea that you'd rely on the account of "frantic woman" for the first testimony of the risen Christ would have been ludicrous to Roman and Jewish society.
So, as it follows, someone who was making up the story whole cloth, wouldn't have mentioned them at all.
Indeed interestingly, the later gospels like Luke and John omit Mary's arrival at Christ's empty tomb and focus instead on the fact that Peter was the first man to see the empty tomb, in all likelihood because they knew few in their audience would have cared that Mary was there before him.
@@Kylephibbsky There's perhaps some merit there, but I think John Tors makes a good point that many apologists run too far with this argument. After all, the Bible itself records that the woman at the well went around telling people about Jesus and many believed because of her testimony. This was a woman who was shunned because of her reputation, etc., yet the people could apparently accept her word and believe, even though she was a woman. So we shouldn't overplay this hand of "nobody believed women". With that said though, I do think there's a humility displayed in that women were the first witnesses. Jesus could have had Emperor Tiberius himself be the first witness!
@@Kylephibbskyso the story of Jesus was changed depending on the audience.
And Christians do not see how this makes Christianity vulnerable to corruption.
He's not saying there was no Jesus, just that he wasn't divine.
This, sir, has just become one of my favorite videos ever. Thanks.
Also see
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word
I recall some of this from the quotes in Origen’s book Against Celsus (Contra Celsum).
Very effective reading on your part.
Everything we know about Celsius is derived from Origen, who certainly took him seriously given that he wrote his refutation 70 years later.
Celsus.
Celsius was quite different.
This is so freaking interesting. This is one of the best TH-cam channels I have discovered.
anyone hearing this has to be impressed at the level of knowledge and articulation. this writer sounds like any contemporary critic in the reasoning used. the writer, from 2000 years ago, is on par with modern man in intellect and only by lack of scientific discoveries does he fall short. man back then was just as smart as man is now. this was a real eye opener for me.
Good education (for his time) and common sense that's why he sounds so intelligent there were just as many smart people then as there are stupid people now
Romans were at least as sophisticated as GEICO’s cavemen
The average educated person today pales in comparison to the educated person of Ancient Rome or Ancient Greece. Education was a VERY serious endeavor in those societies and the standards were immense. It's a bit hard to compare directly because our education methods are structured so differently, but there is no real point in comparing a completely educated person of Ancient Rome to anyone under modern PhD level, as that is the closest thing we have to their kinds of educational standards for the fully educated person.
And though they lacked the scientific knowledge we have, they actually wouldn't be short of answers on much of these that actually matter. And if we pretended the premises were the same, could probably argue most modern scientists under the table when it comes to things like cosmology. Which is funny because we now know the difference between a literal, astronomical understanding of cosmology, and the ancient philosophically-based version of it. And although we are closer to the literal truth, they had generations of mathematical and philosophical proofs, working theories, and debate prescedent to draw on just like we do. And of course neither would recognize each others' proofs and theories, but they were generally much better at rhetoric and debate anyways. What I would give to watch a debate like that.
It's hubris to think we are so clever as a civilization now in modern days. In many ways we are inferior to the ones that came before
If you haven't stumbled on him yet since you left this comment: go look up the works of Lucian of Samosata. We have an EXTENSIVE collection (it's the only time I know of where we have an ancient author's full body of works preserved and translated) and he wrote on a lot of topics, even wrote a satirical sci-fi story to mock people writing about places they never visited and making shit up about it.
(he wrote about Star Trek-style rubber forehead aliens on the moon, it's great)
Edit: can't believe I called my man Lucius instead of Lucian.
Thank you again for your work, this is really fascinating!
This man knows christianity better and more intimately that almost any modern christian.
Coming from someone who I doubt knows much yourself
Celsus sounds very much like a Chattanooga (Tennessee) Freemason seated next to me on a three hour plane flight in 1977.
Glad to know Jesus loved Dimebag’s sick solos and Pantera
😂
Panthera was the best!
All makes sense now! Dimebag was the Second Coming 🙏
All the Fedora Tippers came out in droves for this video.
Goes to Show they Just hate Christians because seriously you cannot be that critical of Jesus and ON the Other Hand believe every Roman myth which are a Bit wilder and more bombastic Ego stroking
As a Christian I am Highly offended... That this wasn't longer. This was incredibly interesting and humorous. The writer was pretty informed and familiar with the religion, he just didn't care for it 😆. Written by Grumpus Shenaniganus.
Extremely facinating. Your content is top notch.
your content is top notch as well. good luck :))
❤
This reminds me of your video on the Scotsman who wrote that article making fun of the Declaration of Independence while showing his lack of understanding of its importance.
The ingorance of erudite at its finest
You can't blame him. Who'd have thought that the cult would gain enough power to take over the Empire when they were apparently blind to the Sun itself.
@@LuisAldamiz nice pop culture stereotypes, but i didnt know that christians started Crisis of the Third Century and then implemented Dominate as government system. And I doubt that christians were a main reason of deurbanization of roman empire. Also I think that it was not a christianity that started migration period.
When people say that chistians took over rome and destroyed empire i always find it funny how they dont mention about... you know Basileia Romaion.
@@EkoFranko christians didn't destroy the empire, they simply destroyed roman culture. Which is a way bigger crime
@@filcalippo I think you might want to reconsider that opinion. Because it is likely your morals, or perception of good and evil, are based on Christianity. The Romans would be quite barbarous when measured by those standards.
But I don't know you, so please do take it with a pinch of salt.
I just think that morals, culture and religion of any kind cannot be divorced and kept alive seperately. If one goes, so do the others eventually.
Anyways, enough rambling. Goodnight.
I'm imagining Celsus discovering Scientology. 🤭
Gnosticism is pretty much that but cooler.
He would have probably supported it.
his closing remark made Constantine smile. He was like that's a good idea we should do that and then they can stop setting fire to eachother's houses.
Typical. "I'm not asking because I'm open to learning their beliefs, since I already know them all."
Sure you do, Celsus. Sure you do.
To be fair, that "don't ask questions" part is pretty accurate to this day.
He actually shows he knows what they believed almost to the finest detail. He knew even details which have been expurged from the official account, like the name of Jesus' real father: Panthera!
@@LuisAldamiz The Panthera thing was *invented* by Celsus; it's not some Gnostic detail expunged from the "official account". His is the very first mention of it anywhere in history, over a 100 years after Jesus died, which means he was either spreading a rumor or simply made it up.
The official account is history, where we look at contemporary sources, examine them carefully based on literary and historical style, authorial intent, and a host of other factors. Conspiracy theories are fun, but also usually bullshit.
But believe as you will.
@@staywhite6332 Interesting, if true. Source?
He sure got it pretty much spot on.
Incredible reading! Perspective of romans on early christianity is very interesting.
Also see what Christ-ians thought of Rome
Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word
@@MichiMindJesus wasn’t a god their is no god😂
@@ahronthegreat There*
@@CHRB-nn6qp 🤓🤓🤓🤓
@@ahronthegreatJesus is God.
Kinda wild that he predicted Islam by about 500 years when said that if he'd been a stonemason there would have been a precious stone.
He used his brain, albeit pagan
This just shows how nothing ever changes, not the hearts of man nor The Word of God! 😮
I love the point about how its the devil who should be punished, and not the people he led astray
Absolutely. I'd even add that it's God who should be punished for letting the so-called Devil unleashed. Bad God, bad!
Or is it "bad doG"?
To be fair , according to Christian canon that’s literally what happened. God made a place just to put the devil, his fellow fallen angles because they didn’t want to be in heaven. It goes with Christian doctrine saying if a person doesn’t want to be with God he doesn’t make them and they choose Hell instead. The idea of fire and pitchforks and all that is not biblical
But according to Christians God has punished the devil….
No
@@DanteD84 The idea is that you suffer because Hell is the abscence of God. The fire is that physical representation (but we really dont know how would work on spiritual terms).
A really important piece of history - some great points made so early.
The logic being applied is actually quiet astounding.
It's mixed with his own understanding of the world, but the line of questioning and trying to explore with reason is very impressive.
We’re still the same people now as back then and our brains still work the same way, we just have more “things” and know more overall but all the processing equipment in our heads is exactly the same as it was 2,000 years ago.
@@ryanhampson673 I agree, although change is the only constant, so there must have been some changes in those 2000 years, what, is hard to quantify.
EVEN ROMANS were able to say "hold on a second, you can't have _days_ without having a _sun_ first!"
This was brilliant 😊. I'll listen to this more than once for sure.
One side twice? Shameless
Against Celsus, preserved entirely in Greek, is a major apologetics work by the Church Father Origen of Alexandria, written in around 248 AD, countering the writings of Celsus, a pagan philosopher and controversialist who had written a scathing attack on Christianity in his treatise The True Word
"My god is buff and could totally beat your not buff god therefore he is superior."
Not even just buff. But just generally not a street-walking bum lmao, as a god should be (go figure)
Whether you agree with him or not, it's impressive that someone living that far back in the past in Rome could be that knowledgeable about Israel and the story of Jesus, considering this was before the bible had been compiled (and the fact that information about these matters would've been much scarcer in those times). You can't deny that they make a reasonable (although not perfect) argument, even by today's standards. He sounds... understandable. I guess I'm just not used to imaging someone from that time period sounding so coherent.
Read up on Lucian of Samosata. We have his ENTIRE body of works (through sheer volume and popularity, so you could consider him the ancient equivalent of a celebrity author, enough people had enough of his stuff that we could recover it all) and it's all been translated to english.
He was from around the later 200s CE/AD, so not sure if he's contemporary to Celsus, but he has a vast and varied body of works.
People have been coherent since before written history, and we only perceive incoherence because what we have are often fragments, people quoting others (as in Celsus' case, Origen point-by-point debated him like ancient Redditors fighting with each other), and we don't always realize they're from similar but unrelated branches, or we're missing the contemporary framework to re-contextualize what seems incoherent.
Just as a sallient but more recent example: most medieval bestiaries sound like complete nuttery. Add in the layer that they're meant as moral allegories, not naturalist works, and it clarifies. Add in the common idioms and the fact most of the population knew its saints like the back of their own hands, and you realize a lot of those aren't just allegories, but moral mnemonic devices using common sayings about the saints as metaphors for moral actions and cleansing rituals.
We've got evidence that Prudentia (the Roman/Greek goddess of carefulness) has iconography that represents two ancient greek cryptographical devices: the mirror represents a speculum (a mirror with five cypher wheels) and a mnemonic snake (a snake-like coiled spiral with movable wheels that matches a "back spine" to a "belly scale" letter, to create a more elaborate cypher).
They basically made _Carefulness_ armed with _cryptography tools_ . They knew cryptography, even back then, which kinda shows that there was a LOT of intelligence around.
There were far more coherent people then than now, I can assure you of that😂
The Bible definitely had been compiled in the form of the Greek Septuagint.
But you're right that his knowledge of The Christian gospels really is impressive.
He doesn’t mention Israel but he does mention Palestine here 8:56
It’s hilarious how whatever goof wrote this makes the claim that he already understands all the Christian beliefs but then his questions clearly shows he doesn’t understand what Christian’s believe or teach.
This unbelieving man was the one to point out a parallel I had not noticed: Christ being hanged on a tree and Jews, for thousands of years before the Crucifiction, had been preaching about Eternal Life coming from a life-giving tree.
That said, the proud have always been, and forever will be, allergic to Christ.
Wow. This is one of my favorite channels on TH-cam 🔥🐐 keep up the good work sir