Why Is Zoroark So Much Worse Than Hisuian-Zoroark?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- Why Is Zoroark So Much Worse Than Hisuian-Zoroark?
The new form is a lot better than the old form... but why?
0:00 Introduction
0:21 Stats
1:43 Typing
4:38 Illusion
Edited by / tazprods
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My favorite running joke on the channel is referring to offensive bug moves as “u-turn” because that the only one you see.
I was literally about to make this comment. I fucking adore it
Bug Buzz is good too
@@vyor8837 well, u-turn and that one volcarona's bug move, right
U turn
Bug buzz
Quiver dance is bug i think? I dunno
First impression
Jaw lock is bug too i guess
And even bug bite sometimes
And i might be missing something
@@DIRTkat_ofc Jaw Lock is dark type?
Common attacking types like "U-turn", Fairy and Fighting.
I mean, are there any other Bug types moves used that much? Second closest is probably Sticky Webs and that is not that much. Bug-type moves viability is solely based off of U-Turn (and then Sticky Webs and First Impression, maybe Pin Missile)
@@iantaakalla8180 kid named fury cutter venusaur
@@iantaakalla8180 Bug Buzz on Volc, and that's probably it.
Slither Wing does run First Impression, too, but I don't think it's common to see.
Megahorn can be pretty nasty even on non-STAB mons just by its power and little drawback. Dark, Psychic, Grass types aren't all that usually bulky either.
Bug type is so bad that only u turn worths mentioning
Having multiple immunities is so essential when you have Illusion as an ability
Huge facts
That said, what WOULD be the best type for an Illusion user?
Normal/Ghost is a nice dual type, but I genuinely am curious on if there’s a spread that gives more/better immunities.
Thought about it.
Maybe Ghost/Flying? Though that would make you take a ton of damage from Sneaky Pebbles and blow your cover.
Ghost/Steel? Though poison isn’t commonly used offensively, and the resistances of Steel don’t matter if you’re a frail illusion user…
@@borby4584 Normal/Ghost is great, but I think that the best typing for an Illusion user might have less overall immunities, but more relevant ones (because the Normal immunity might as well not exist), and my answer would honestly be quite obvious to OU players :
Ground/Flying.
The immunity to both Ground and Electric (most notably Volt Switch) are extremely valuable when it comes to pivoting it in and creating really nasty mind games (disguising a Flying/Ground as a Water type would make some nasty guesswork both defensively and offensively)
Also, even thematically I think this typing could easily work with Illusion as when I think of Flying/Ground, I think of a Sandstorm in a desert and well..... it can definitely spill into the mirage motif
@@sephikong8323 Imagine a Flying/Ground illusion mon in a Gyarados team....
I remember fighting an H-Zoroark with an air balloon. Why air balloon? Because he had a choice scarf Gholdengo in the back. But when I saw an Air balloon go for Nasty Plot, I thought. "Oh okay. My Volcarona has some chip damage but it should be able to outspeed and fiery dance" and I fell for it hook, line and sinker
I remember using that strategy XD
Execpt I used regular zoroark (this was before H zoroark was released and I fooled alot of people with it)
That's a very cool strategy! I might try it out sometime
There's an illusion girl on the way to Larry's Gym up the road to the left from the Port, she missed up & spoiled the surprise she has for people who encounter her team. So she was an easy take down.
Sure Volcarona doesn't have anything for an Hisui Zoroark, unless Hidden Power is still a thing & Her Hidden Power type turned out to be Dark. She's a special attacker anyways, so it'd deal with the Fox
3 immunities is strictly better than only 1 if you have an ability that gets deactivated after getting hit
Not really. The illusion basically wears off if a close combat has no effect on a "kingambit"
3 immunities is better than one for a pokemon that wants to trick other pokemon into using suboptimal moves.
@@phantomfire5013 but then once you switch out you get another chance to use illusion effectively, whereas taking damage would give zoroark a unique health bar % that gives it away for the rest of the game.
@@phantomfire5013 the 3 immunities give you more options to effectivly change your pokemon into. when illusion is up, you opponent has to guess which one you are, and if they guess wrong, its another turn of that Pokemon super high damaging pokemon on the feild. so when using it you specifically turn into Pokemon whos weaknesses are zoroarks immunities, to force that guess. zoroark dies in basically one shot anyway, so illusion is basicaly shield if played correctly
It’s mainly the ghost typing
@@Dane_XOXO That's a pro of having 3 immunities when having illusion, but doesn't have anything to do with the actual breaking of the illusion when hit: If Illusion didn't break when hit, that would still apply.
2:45 Ah yes, my favourite attacking type, *U-Turn*
I commented something similar to this then watch the rest of the vid and then looked at the comments seeing you said the same lol
yeah basically weak to bug biggest drawback is being weak to U-Turn
"Attack and types?"
Imagine the mind games if Species Clause didn't apply to Zoroark. Or if Team Preview couldn't tell the difference between regional forms.
Species clause has no bearing on wifi battles. I've used both on a team online and it was great fun
Hot take: We actually need settings to adjust Team Preview if we want, and "Don't reveal form" should be one of the options
then game no fun no more how’d you be able to plan the game and your lead if you don’t even know the exact pokemon your enemy is running?
@@hanspeter24welcome to gens 1-4, they had that exact thing and still had fun
2:45 I like how U-Turn is a "common attacking type".
There are no such thing as bug type attacking moves outside of U-Turn -and maybe Bug Bite if the opponent is feeling spicy- .
Tera bug Leach life bulk up Grimmsnarl.
Only bug moves in OU that will ever be seen are u-turn and bug buzz (because volcarona)
Don’t forget Tera bug roaring moon
Yeah... Bug has like, three or four attacking moves that are ever good, even in casual playthroughs, and the others are X-Scissor, Bug Buzz and Leech Life.
Also, why does X-Scissor not have a boosted Crit rate. I swear I get Mandela Effect'd every time I actually read the effects because it just ***FEELS*** like it should be the Bug type equivalent of (Night) Slash.
Lunge is a pretty good move in a vacuum good base power and petty nice secondary effect
I like to disguise H-Zoroark as a special Dragapult.
I run it as a specs set with Shadow Ball, Hyper Voice, Dark Pulse and Trick.
It's hard to notice it's actually not Dragapult and its a double surprise bc my Dragapult is actually a physical Dragon Dance Sweeper
Oh that is nasty, I love it
that's foul bro lmao
I do the same thing, only with more coverage moves on mine. Me getting to Master Ball tier in ranked can be largely attributed to Hisuian Zoroark.
Your editor is honestly really amazing! Congrats for bagging him for your videos.
You just made my year ☺️ Thank you! I'm glad you like it
@@Tazmania98 You really popped off on this video!
@@Tazmania98 i thought you was pokeaim's editor
@@Tazmania98 your work is genuinely fantastic my dude
2:46 I love how bug is such a bad attacking type that it's just referred to as "U-Turn" instead of "Bug" lol
Bug isn't really a bad attacking type, it's just that U Turn is singlehandedly the best offensive bug type move in the entire franchise.
Bug Buzz comes second, but the difference between them is like an ocean considering the difference between the effective users of both moves.
@@TWLSpark There are actually a decent number of good bug type moves, they just only exist on trash tier pokemon. Leech life (80bp, 100acc) for example is the second most powerful generic life draining move there is after bitter blade. But the only pokemon with access to this move that are actual physical attackers are slither wing and grimmsnarl. The rest are special attackers who can't do anything with it or lurantis who also has stab giga drain. Giga drain (75bp, 100acc) is a good move that is used fairly regularly on pokemon like amoongus, and a ton of others because a ton of pokemon get giga drain.
If bug moves were available to more good pokemon then they would actually get used more.
@@MrDadhhg Bug never had a problem with high BP or anything, it's just that their moves didn't hit anything that Dark or Fighting, common coverage types, didn't already take care of. U turn at the very least brings something to the table in the form of momentum management, and unlike Volt Switch, it cannot be stopped by Grounds.
Depending on how the following gens develop, though, things might change for once, considering that Dark at the moment doesn't really exists now that Knock Off distribution was limited again, and thus Bug has a real chance at being a decent coverage option. At least if Game Freak doesn't randomly decide to bring back Knock.
@@TWLSpark You pretty much hit the nail, Bug’s biggest problem as a type is in it’s offensive potential. As you noted Dark and Fire already takes care of the types Bug is effective against, and as of right now there’s 7 types (almost half of all types) that resist Bug meaning a lot of Super Effective hits on one of the types it is normally Super Effective on can be brought down to normal effectiveness.
Back and generation five and six I always tried to make zoroark work but he always feel short on the mark on taking an opponent out or just dies from the slightest breeze of a resistance attack. I am glad this new form is substantially much better.
In BWUU its really fun to pair Scarf Heracross with Zoroark. Its not entirely foolproof (as its not that capable of beating Zapdos and Togekiss for Heracross) but it breaks Cofagrigus and Slowbro for Heracross to clean-up lategame
H-Zoroark's typing really carries it. It's the fighting, ghost, normal immunities that allow it to really make use of illusion
Also immune to trapping moves and abilities
illusion doesn't matter that much, the typing is just cracked
@@hasnonamelol illusion actually got a significant buff with HZ. It always had potential, it's just that zoroark can't take a single hit.
One of the biggest reasons for why Zoruark is usually underwhelming is because back in when gen 5 released, the competitive rules made it so your teams Pokémon need to be public, and illusion helped to get a free psychic switch in or fake out, but even if your opponent has no clue, there are very few fighting or poison types that are known competitively to set up with nasty plot.
I used physical Zoroark with a sticky web team and paired with a toxicroak (cuz it's my favorite poison type) and they had the exact same moves.
My moves were Swords dance, Low kick, Knock off and Sucker punch. There was no way they could tell and it fooled a good amount of people 😅
So you can still make it work it doesn't need to use a special set but I do agree that the hisuian form is better
@Mistelation mostly I'd think that would work because of the quad weakness being at play, since rarely will a move something is quad weak to not be the strongest move, let alone not effect the Pokémon. What zoruark seems like in your team is to bait and pick off the lead psychic move user of any given team so that your toxicroak (Along with your other mons) could go that much less punished in the field. That's not a terrible strategy, though it falls flat if your opponent thinks whatever they have can deal with either a toxicroak or zoruark without a psychic move.
@Mistelation mostly I'd think that would work because of the quad weakness being at play, since rarely will a move something is quad weak to not be the strongest move, let alone not effect the Pokémon. What zoruark seems like in your team is to bait and pick off the lead psychic move user of any given team so that your toxicroak (Along with your other mons) could go that much less punished in the field. That's not a terrible strategy, though it falls flat if your opponent thinks whatever they have can deal with either a toxicroak or zoruark without a psychic move.
If Team Preview didn't exist, Zoroark would be just fine
2:46
My favourite type is U-Turn
Really appreciate you showing the description of moves when you bring them up! Real helpful for folks like me that don’t play competitive and don’t have the kinda knowledge to know what some things do right off the bat
Ah yes, the U-Turn type.
Okay, now hear me out: Run both on the same team, leave the opponent constantly guessing
Ah yes, the 3 dark weaknesses
Fairy, Fighting and U-Turn
I love running tera blast on H-Zoroark because it's already a stab normal move but if you happen to terastallize to something wacky you have the added benefit of keeping that stab move. Very versatile on a pokemon like this.
Love it when people call U-Turn an offensive type because every other Bug move is useless
No one's gonna run Bug as a coverage type that's why
Terrak in gen5😮
bug buzz volc but yeah lol
@@midnightemeraldbug buzz volc isn't even common though
@@justaliljello5198 ..what?
Man, freezai's vids just keep getting better, entertaining, quick and great knowledge about the competitive scene and just good overall
I like how you are editing these videos! Keep it up
Your editing has become top tier, keep going freezai💯💯💯
His editor
Eh dunno if I agree, the sounds and text that quickly flashes are distracting more than they add. If you're going to add graphics let them sit on the screen long enough for me to see and process them. And the TikTok/Shorts style bolded text is too much.
@@hardflip8true, I feel like stuff is flashing on and off before I have a chance to read it
If you know your stuff this doesn't bother you, but upon bringing it to my attention I caught myself pausing the video a couple times lol
If Bitter Malice wasn't nerfed, imagine how much more terrifying H-Zoroark would be.
This is why I wish they kept the Hex double damage effect at least. That way you could run Wilo Wisp and HP investment with Spdef investment and have a hard to predict and switch into hard hitter that can cripple the enemy while still hitting really hard. Since Wilo Wisp Plus and Attack drop coming off a stab 130 plus base power would be nothing to sneeze at. And it has all the coverage it really needs.
Why DID they butcher it so hard anyway? It's weird how every Hisuian Form's signature move is terrible or borderline broken in SV (Also, why nerf Bitter Malice so hard when Infernal Parade got to keep ITS effects?)
It all comes down to one really simple reason - Normal/Ghost is an amazing typing with tons of competitive applications.
What an insane typing does to a mon
Loving the editing
My favorite way to use H-Zoroark is in conjunction with regular Zoroark since it covers its type weaknesses so well.
With the way Illusion works, having regular Zoroark in the last slot makes it so the opponent has to guess whether it’s dealing with the regular or H variant. This allows for some very cheeky plays.
I usually like to run a focus sash on the regular one with U-turn on both variants and a supportive mon with healing wish letting me reset its hp and quickly switch for more potential mind games later on in a battle. I’ve really messed with a lot of people using this strategy.
Back when chi-yu was running rampant in OU, I used zoroark to bait switches into the opponents’ walls and counters. I could continuously chip away at them with hazards or just spam dark/fire with what was essentially a second chi-yu
Wait a minute, you’re the freezai that’s on showdown? Dude you helped me make my team a BEAST. Thank you good sir- subscribed
After years of using zoroark I found out that the unovian zoroark best parter for using illusion is gengar. The hisuian zoroark has to be disguised as a either as dark or a fighting type Pokémon
I still remember when I discovered the absurd synergy of Zoroark transformed into Gengar while searching for a team to use at the PWT on Black/White 2 back when the games were new... I was 10 years old at the time and felt like the smartest human being in the world at the sudden realization😂😂😂
Love the new style, shoutouts to the editor
The editing has been top tier
You a good guy freezy
I like it
Glad illusion can work now cause it’s unique
one of my favorite disguises for h-zoroark is walking wake because of their very similar stat spread for special atk and speed, + both of them having access to flamethrower.
Nice vid mate
My favorite moveset for either of the zoro forms is using it on a terrain team, with a seed disguised as hawlucha, they will send in their psychics, ghosts or fairys and getting demolished by your stab or sludge bomb freeing up the way for lucha, can't wait to use h-zoro alongside terrak for the real mindgames though
Not gonna lie, I hope you would add subtitles just like in the Fissure video. That was a great addition.
I love that instead of saying dark has a bug weakness you just said it's weak to u turn
I used TeraBlast/Shadow Ball/Momento/Nasty Plot,Tera Fairy,max speed and special and Timid for outspeeding as much mons it can,Tera Blast with Fairy punishes overconfident dragon or dark types,while just the nomrla and ghost combo hits neutrally,it makes dittos think twice since you are also immune to the moves yourself,If you think you are not doing survive the turn and your atack does not faint the pokemon,momento could let you give a chance to another setup sweeper like hatterene or dragonite.
My favourite bug moves u-turn, quiver dance and that one bug attacking move volcarona likes using
I hope you see this but you probably won't. I respect the increased quality of the videos, it's much more visibly appealing and it's definitely going to grow your audience! You also have gotten way more confident doing TH-cam videos, and I can tell in your voice! You're doing it man, keep up the good work ❤
Ahh, my favorite types, Fairy, Fighting, and U-Turn.
My H-Zoroark, named Snowdrift, makes for a great matchup in my Snow Team.
I shouldn’t have to explain, but because half of my team is weak to Fighting, an immunity _to_ Fighting is incredibly invaluable for the team. I also use Slowking as a slow-pivot alternate setter in the event of an opposing weather team, which is also weak to Ghost. It’s crazy how often she successfully baits in Fighting Moves, allowing her to freely setup in front of notable threats, assisted in part by her Focus Sash.
She commonly disguises as my Sableye or Slowking if leading the team, or any of the offensive Ice Types if she isn’t lead. (Baxcalibur or Chien-Pao.) I find the Sableye disguise can last for a disgusting amount of time too, enough for the real Sableye to enter the field and support her by being a literal gremlin, Disabling, Faking Out and Paralysing others to her liking.
The Immunities really come in handy cause if your opponent uses a Normal, Ghost or Fighting move and doesn’t effect the pokemon it can really psyche them out. If they are not familiar with Illusion it’ll just seem like a hacked pokemon with no weaknesses. It’s funny and infuriating to some
"Types like u-turn [...]"
Ouch.
Thank you for the information. Zoroark variants are my favourite pokemon, it's very useful to know that!
Okay but all things considered, prankster immunity with illusion balances things out.
I’m curious to see how Hisuian Zorark is gonna be in vgc as it has an immunity to fake out and it’s ability is so unique that it might make a splash. Being able to check Flutter Main and switch into Iron Hands isn’t bad either
3 powerful immunes does a lot of the leg work.
I find that Regular Zoroark works well if you're specifically using a bulky ghost like Cofagrigius. Stab knock off, u-turn, suckerpunch and protect is a pretty annoying set to deal with.
That being said, H Zoro is a way better nasty-plotter. After a KO, have it illusion a psychic type and use the turn they whiff to get a free +2, that gg.
2:47 I didn´t knew that u-turn was a type
Almost all of the Hisuian Forms in general are the Upgrades of their Original Counterparts competitively, with only one exception being Avalugg
While I love both Zoroark and its Hisuian form, having 3 immunities is better than being dependent on disguising as poison types on a psychic type.
Freezai, regarding your recent Short about Corviknight confusing itself due to an Iapapa Berry...why do people think Mints outright change natures? They don't - they never have.
All they do is change the stat calcs, not the stored nature itself, which is still gonna be the original one on the summary screen - and what's passed down through breeding via Everstone.
The fact the championship player _didn't look at his metal bird's summary screen_ is his own damn fault. Sure, the changed 'nature' (the stat calcs) are reflected on the stat screen, by changing which stats are red and blue respectively, but the original nature name remains, which a pro like him should've known.
I go lead H Zoroark to have my opponents sweating from the start. Disguising it as Great Tusk on a Glimmora usually makes them energy ball, even potentially use tera while I can always outspeed and 2 shot.
Dragapults somewhat tricky if I can guess it as a lead. I generally just coin flip and hope they shadowball instead of draco turn 1. I need a fairytype to force a shadowball, but eh.
Meowscarada is just annoying. I tend to go Orthworm since most carry taunt and dont want a free shed tail pass.
I like the neat transitions you're adding in these videos.
My favorite set is a no no sense Specs set with:
Shadow Ball
Tera Blast
Focus Blast
Trick
The fact that Tera Blast is STAB prior to Terastalizing is nice cherry on top
Edit: The set has Tera Fairy since it pairs phenominally with Zoro-H
Only one weakness in Dark (or Scrappy Fighting) and three immunities make a world of difference.
My favorite H-Zoroark set is Aerial Ace, Happy Hour, Take Down, and Torment.
Another benefit of H-Zoro, It can use Tera Blast when it's not tera
I need that Esdeath avatar 4:24
This mon is gonna be real spicy post-home ubers.
You take the illusion of a sweeper and threatening pokemon [assume calyrex-shadow] which the opponent absolutely cannot
let set up. Now if they decide to go for a ghost move here, BOOM you get owned by zoroark.
Let's try to do this again in the same match.
Let calyrex-shadow switch in on a fighting type move. Now your opponent thinks it's horoark and let it setup
Both have nasty plot, psychic etc this is high risk, high reward imo
Really appreciate all the moves popup to explain what the moves/abilities do since I basically know none of them!
In other words, Hisuian Zoroark is cuter than regular Zoroark.
when i played gen 8 national dex i used zororark with detect, substitute, nasty plot, and night daze (40% chance to lower targets accuracy) with the fighting z crystal. Z-Detect raises evasiveness by 1. this helped me win a lot of losing games
I know it's definitely an oddball set, but I run Hyper Beam/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Nasty Plot on my Zoro-H. The ability and immunities gives it valuable extra turns against opposing Pokemon, and a Tera Nornal HB hits super hard.
The meme with Skeledirge and Dragapult using Bitter Malice against each other for no effect 😂
2:46 "Types like U-turn"
Yeah, bug type kinda doesn't have much going for it.
Bring the full captions back 🙏🏼
Fun fact: I actually finished to shiny hunt for (unovan) Zoura yesterday.(and I'm hatching the remainder of the eggs as I type this) Interesting that this showed up in my recommendations
A ghost pokemon that is imune to ghost moves in a meta game where some ghost types like Dragapault and Skeliderge are considered the best in the tier is pretty dangerous
Even though H. Zoro is a glass cannon, with wil o wisp burning a physical allows you to stay a bit longer. I plain on using the good old hex burn.
What about Terastralization for getting more Stab?
Tera normal hyper voice is deadly on this mon
I like to run Modest Throat Spray Tera Ghost Hisuian Zoroark with Hyper Voice, Shadow Ball, Agility and Taunt with max Sp. ATK and Speed EVs with the leftover EVs going into Sp. DEF
I really want to get into VGC and I was planning to build my team around Hisuian Zoroark, but regulation c hates me :)
My favorite H zoroark moveset its nasty plot/hidden power(bug)/shadow ball/extrasensory and holding a normalium Z(at national dex) if a dark type lands I can actually just nuke it with hidden power that has 1.5x dmg boost and 2.0x super effective, extrasensory is for poison types and shadow ball its the core dmg. Bug hidden power is better than fighting bcs u can have a 31 spe. Attack. Idk if it is a great move pool
Someday, freezai will say "bug moves like scizor's pounce" and you will all flip out
First impression really puts an impression on Zoroark.
My favorite zoroark set is my double dance set I use on my mono normal team.
I'm thinking of running nasty plot, shadow ball, tera blast and flamethrower.
I'm so mad that I missed the mystery gift for H-Zoroark. So mad.
I like how you still used Generation 3 music but it's from FRLG instead of RSE.
I like that the only attacking bug move is U-Turn.
i like using hisuian zoroark with throat spray
hyper voice, bitter malice (or shadow ball), flamethrower, nasty plot
My favorite move set for zoroark is specs with shadow ball, focus blast, hyper voice, and uturn with Tera fighting max spatk max speed timid nature
I used to use Zoroark and Alola-wack together, and it felt like it worked out decently
Buff suggestion: Illusion only dissapears at
I like how he says U turn instead of bug lmao
Normal/Ghost is my favorite type combo in the game, and is the only reason why I don’t want ghost to be nerfed in the future.
i just want to point out how funnny h-zoroark is in mono normal, it plays like a tf2 spy where its better to let the opponent forget you even have a h-zoroark and then pull up on a shadow ball or focus blast gholdengo
Illusion on a Pokémon with like 3 immunities was bound to be broken.
I’ve been trying to figure out what would be the best disguise for H Zoroark to bait the opponent in using a move it’s immune against, but I don’t know what. Can anyone give any recommendations and a move set to go with it?
Tyranitar and toxicroak to bait out a psychic type move.
I love that he kinda sound like steewe from family guy
Since hisuian zoroark is only weak to dark, in theory, a pokemon that WANTS to get hit by dark type moves would be the best illusion partner for it, and why kind of mon would want that? Well, a pokemon with justified, for example. Take the swords of justice, for example, whose only abilities are justified (unlike other mons like arcanine having justified but also better abilities) the swords of justice have the same fighting stab that iron valiant has with the additional bonus of heavily deterring dark types to hit them with justified being a free attack boost. It makes what freezai said, being a very deadly guessing game into an even worse one as you could easily help play yourself if you guess wrong. Kinda can't wait for terrakion, especially as he's already known as a physical threat
Small note but both Unovan and Hisuian Zoroark have the same attack and special attack since generation 9
Unfun fact: Zoroark and H-Zorua are in the same tier. The difference in typing is that big
ok this is the second type you have said exactly the line "Common attacking type" and said u turn instead of bug