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Love your vids but when you put a list of the moves at the start of the video I feel no desire to watch all the way through. Tbf these kinds of videos are probably for people who don’t know why those moves are hated so ig I’m no longer the target audience
Marvel is also on the BDS list, but I'm thankful it's not better help at least. I hope you get picked up by a team or something so you don't gotta deal w as much as the shitty advertisers.
So there was actually another layer to what made Fissure Ting-Lu so good. Due to a unique quirk of physical ground types in doubles, Fissure was actually a move with no inherent downside for it. Due to Earthquake also hitting your partner in doubles, most physical ground types run either High Horsepower or Stomping Tantrum. Stomping Tantrum is 75 Base Power, but it doubles to 150 if your previous move failed to connect by any means. Failing, being paralyzed, confused, but most importantly for Ting-Lu, missing. This meant that Ting-Lu could throw off a Fissure, and if it hit, you got a free ko, but if it missed you just super powered up your Stomping Tantrum next turn.
That actually is really interesting. Essentially a free fissure as long as Ting-Lu can survive as 150BP Stomping is like pressing it twice. Even better since it’s harder to recover away from lethal ranges too.
They say that if you look in a mirror and say 'Stealth Rock' 3 times, a Charizard fan teleports behind you and smashes your head in with their Heavy-Duty Boots.
Instructions incomplete, a volcarona fan just came in and gave me a pair of heavy duty boots thinking I would need them and was scared of stealth rock before that.
it's still hilarious to me that Scald's chance of burning you is the same as Fissure's chance of killing you is the same as Focus Blast's chance of missing. really puts things in perspective.
70%-80% is the most annoying chance, it's reliable enough that you think you should use it and be good with it a large majority of the time, but it feels like 50/50 odds in practice. 85% is only where things start feeling pretty reliable, and you expect 50-60% to be a rough chance. it's right on the borderline.
@@goGothitaLOL or RNG in general, any game (mostly gachas) with Critical Hit Rate stats I never hit crits at 70% Crit Rate, but ALWAYS hit crits at 30% Crit Rate
Another reason why I feel like focus blast has gotten it’s reputation is due to its animation on showdown. When you use the move there’s a whole second where the animation plays but you can’t tell if it hit or missed. It really gets you that little bit excited before seeing the move miss and all the happiness is ripped out of you
scald went from 30% to 50% and this season is back to 30% lmfao Tentacruel also terrorizes UL with scald, along with poliwrath in GL/UL and whiscash in GL Poliwrath is kinda funny because it also has icy wind which is a guaranteed -1 attack but scald hits hard on STAB so you can totally run scald/icy wind together
A dishonorable mention I would like to bring attention to is Moonblast. -95 BP and 100% accuracy in spite of the Gen 6 nerfs to BP of similar moves in Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam. -30% Special Attack drop chance, the same as Scald's burn chance. -Fairy type being a top 5 offensive type makes it good as a coverage move, too. -Bizarre distribution where some fairy types like Tapu Koko or Alcremie are stuck with Dazzling Gleam, but then pokemon like Gourgeist, Vileplume, and Muk (likely pokedex reasons for the latter) just have it. -Still given to pokemon that would be good with just Dazzling Gleam like Flutter Mane, (Mega) Diancie, and Xerneas. I think it's one of the main reasons people believe fairy type has become the very thing it was meant to destroy, the Gen 5 Dragons.
@@SJradI seriously don't understand why they couldn't just make a 100% accurate physical fairy move. hell, make it 80 BP even, still would be better than missing in those crucial moments
I wouldn’t call Fairy a top 5 offensive type, but maybe that’s just my bias as a VGC player, where Amoongus and Fire Types are everywhere. Moonblast is still objectively an overturned move, but I’d also argue a SpAt drop isn’t a huge deal, as it only hurts other special attackers.
@@elliotw.888never mind a 100% accuracy move, how about more physical fairy moves in general, 4 generations and there are only 2 of them, one of which is a signiture move!
@@Endershock1678 Yeah the special attack drop can be brutal, but it's no where as strong as scald's burn. Burn stays on the Pokémon even if they switch out and does damage on top of the stat drop.
@@SpolcypsProbably because it was paralysis that was also nerfed to reduce a Pokémon's speed to 50% instead of 25%. Maybe, he mixed that all up. Confusion, as discussed, is still a 33% percent hit chance instead of 25%, since Generation 7.
Ally Switch is a move I've really changed thoughts on over the years. I was at a regional in 2015 - before it got massive distribution - and I wanted redirection but I didn't like the existing options. I decided to go with a mindgame option that only worked once guaranteed, but I needed to use something like Gardevoir or Alakazam at the time. I liked using it, partially because it filled the niche I needed, but also because it felt involved! It's like Protect mind games but in reverse. I had thought then "I wish I could use this on more Pokemon" In hindsight, the monkey's paw curled menacingly in response and I should've known a bit better. Giving the move to something like Cresselia or Shedinja was a mistake, and the sheer number of Pokemon using it meant it was *everywhere*. This is why something like this (and even Follow Me) is only really healthy as a niche tool. An important niche, but can't be expanded too far. It can just cause strategy to not be relevant anymore, and it's even worse when it becomes a coinflip. At least with normal redirection overuse is punished more easily.
I remember back in XY I think using Ally Switch Mega Gardevoir on the VGV ladder. I really thought I was cooking with that one, and wondered why more people didn't use Ally Switch. Little did I know how much I didn't want more people to use it...
Really, I think the issue with Scald is that the burn chance is actually higher than most Fire Type moves. If it had a lower burn chance, then I don't think it would have been as much of a problem as it was.
I've seen people complain Scald is fundamentally poorly designed given its a move that can burn but you don't want your Pokemon immune to burns to switch in on it, quite the opposite in fact. Though Scorching Sands, a slightly weaker Ground-type (also super effective vs Fire) Scald, is considered a mediocre move at best and rarely used beyond a few lower tier examples to my knowledge. Granted though, Ground-type moves are easier to pivot around than Water-type ones. (The difficulty of switching into Water-type moves has gotten a few Pokemon outright banned in certain context like Dracovish in Smogon Gen 8)
I would argue it still does, because more burn moves get blanked by… fire types, but this is the one move that burns you that you NEVER wanna switch a fire type into. It’s similar to Scorching Sands, but that had worse distribution (by a lot), lower burn chance, less BP, less PP, and has to compete with EQ.
@@CoffeeFlavoredMilk Scorching Sands has a lot more holding it back than just being ground type and needing to compete with EQ, it’s straight up worse than Scald in every way.
@@CoffeeFlavoredMilk Scorching sands is blocked by every flying type and levitator, which makes it far worse than the lower dmg. Scald was present on bulky water types that could fish for the 30%. Ground types are usually offensive and too frail to last long. The bulky ground types that got Scorching Sands are usually physical and it wasn't give to the powerhouses of Tinglu or the paradox donophans. The best users of it tend to be fire types and at that point it loses stab and is just a coverage move.
Add to that the fact that most fire-type moves have a very low chance of burn at 10%. The exceptions are either legendary-exclusive moves (Sacred Fire, 50%; Searing Shot, 20%), completely inaccurate moves (Inferno, 100% to burn but only 50% to hit) or have a very poor distribution (Lava Plume, 30%, which has to compete for a spot with Flamethrower AND also hits your partner in a double battle). The thing was so obnoxious that even fire-types were using Scald to fish burns at a time (namely, bulky Gen5 Emboar)
I suspect the other main reason some players hate Stealth Rock is because there are no other elemental equivalents. There is no Ice, Fire, Dark, or Ghost version of SR, so it feels like the same types get arbitrarily nerfed every game instead of players having to decide which trap is best to set up.
Hazard access and removal is also a problem. About a fifth of pokemon can use rocks and or some other hazard, but rapid spin, and later defog, is far more exclusive and high risk (plus, mortal spin only exists on one poke, and tidy up is nearly as rare). And then there's Goldengo.
It’s because Flying types dodged spikes, so they chose Rock to make sure they get fair treatment of hazards… and then ice, fire, and bug types had to suffer for the sins of the flying types.
@@Endershock1678 That just means they knew applying type resistances to spikes and entry hazards was a horrible idea after they saw spikes in action. The optimal solution would have been to remove type immunities to hazards.
@@Varatho Or to introduce a different sort of hazard that affected Flying types but not, idk, a weaker type that needs the defensive boost (Ice or Rock or something). Making a hazard that screws over some types and buffs types that really don't need it like Steel was silly.
One point on Scald I think was understated was how significant the move being water type is. Fire is the type immune to burn, and there are very few water immunities (just the ability-based ones). Lava Plume and Scorching Sands exist but aren't nearly as oppressive because there are entire types that can basically ignore the move (lava plume does negligible damage to + can't burn fire types, and airborne pokemon are immune to ground). But with scald, the answer to burns (fire type) is actually *weak* to water, so the move still does double damage there, and no types are water and burn immune.
It's worth noting that every water-immune Pokémon is immune to Scald burns, they just aren't immune to other sources (tbf, even now Scald is the most common source of burns)
Isn't the problem with Stealth Rocks that it takes types into account, not the passive damage? Especially since sneaky stones hits Pokemon who are typically less defensive for SE damage. The only defensive stall types that get affected are Flying Pokemon, meanwhile Bug is made much worse, Ice is made much worse, Steel is even better, etc. For bulky waters, grasses, normals, etc it's just regular passive damage.
Oh yeah, and the worst part of scald is that the type immune to burn, Fire, gets hit super effectively. Only bulky fire types like Heatran can switch into it and even then they can only switch into to weak scalds from mons like Toxapex. That move + its distribution for 4 gens is one of the most baffling decisions GF has ever made.
a classic one is Gen 1 Submission. It has not great accuracy (a bit better than focus blast), has big recoil, and is still weaker than moves like double edge. Its only really used when you have to use it and even then rarely. Its best case scenario is probably killing a chansey or dying to a recoil so the chansey cannot use its turn to softboiled (as in gen 1, if a pokemon faints the turn just ends)
The other issue is have with stealth rocks is that its less of a commitment than spikes, but more reward (unless your name is hisuian samurott), Also, one of the hazard removal options, defog, is mostly used on flying type who will take additional damage from rocks aka leading to less counterplay. Yeah heavy duty boots exist but you are giving up your item slot which could’ve been used for extra damage or recovery
Toxic (prior to Gen 9), Knock Off (prior to Gen 9, to an lesser extent), U-Turn, Teleport (literally only in Gen 8), Wild Charge, Shadow Punch/Claw (prior to Poltergeist’s existence in general 8 onwards), Stone Edge (or any physical Rock move for that matter, except the signature ones), Moonblast or Play Rough, Spore/Sleep Powder (and to an lesser extent Hypnosis), Zen Headbutt, Dual Wingbeat, Last Respects What else am I’m missing?
its hard to be annoyed at stealth rocks now that boots are out. The real cost of it to me was always how it rained down asymmetrically on pokemons, making many type combinations almost unplayable in some formats. Its hard to believe that if they added ice spikes or grass thorns (entry hazards that cant coexist with rocks but otherwise function the same) wouldnt be hugely warping and divisive in the meta. spikes existed for years before rocks and it wasnt close to as divisive as the discussion around stealth rocks
I think no one would have had a problem with stealth rock if the distribution wasn't as extreme. Like, everyone and there uncle learn the move, and it's a good one, so you don't have to sacrifice a team slot with a bad pokemon to get SR in. And the conclusion is that everyone gets SR in one of their pokemon, because you can get it on pretty much whatever top tier threat you want. An offensive one, a defensive one, a fast one, a psychic type, fire type, fighting type, flying type etc... I think gamefreak did a good job with sticky web for instance, and incredible move, but only shuckle and other rejects learn it. That way you have to commit to somthing bad to run the move, and it has to be an integral part of you overall strategy. But with SR, you just slap it on your team. You don't use it as an answer to volcarona or charizard that your team or strategy is weak yo. You just slap it in there without even thinking about it. And then pokemon like yanmega never see the light of day, or only in lower tiers, just because they're weak to rock. Slapping SR on your team isn't a choice, its mandatory if you're trying to win, and so putting a pokemon weak to the move is juste shooting yourself in the foot, and in my opinion very limiting when it comes to teambuilding. Banning the move altogether isn't healthy either for the reason you mentionned, but it might be the move i hate the most just because of how much of a missed opportunity it is. It could have been absolutely amazing and balanced, but it had to be overpowered as fuck and warp every singles metagame since its introduction around it.
Stealth Rock reminds me of Maxx 'C' in Yu-Gi-Oh. Maxx C allows you to draw a card every time your opponent special summons a monster. This is is extremely common on offensive decks and so weather or not Maxx C is banned can define an entire meta. As proof one of the YGO formats (OCG) has Maxx C allowed at 3 copies per deck and the other(TCG) has it completely banned. As such OCG games and tournaments have higher average turn counts and a meta with a Agro/stall balance while TCG is almost always Aggro only.
Except it’s Ground and Steel types (with the occasional Clefable) that run the move, simply because they don’t have 5 weaknesses with all but one being common
Ally Switch is an interesting move to me because when I first saw it it immediately reminded of the shift action in triple battles where Pokémon on the left or right could use shift to swap with the middle Pokémon. Since Triple Battles got removed in Gen7 it looks like they used shift as inspiration for making ally switch. It hindsight it makes it look like shift was an extra move slot every Pokémon got in Triple Battles.
I once got trapped by a random trainer's Butterfree spamming sleep powder and supersonic for what seemed to be an eternity and it was honestly a traumatic experience.
Gen 5 Watchogs are a nightmare. At a low level they get Hypnosis and Confuse Ray. Plus, Super Fang, Sand Attack, Mean Look, and Detect. Those things are everywhere, in the wild and on trainer teams. It's just constant harassment.
Focus Blast's 70 accuracy is slightly higher than Iron head jirachi's 60 flinch chance, although i think they're even in Gen 4 if you give jirachi a king's rock (this doesn't affect Iron head in gen 5 onward)
I’d also say dark pulse / waterfall, because they are annoying both for the opponent who can get flinched, and for the mon who needs to use an 80 bp move for stab ie hydreigon and gyarados
don't forget gen 1 partial trapping the way wrap, bind, clamp and fire spin work in gen 1 is that they last 2-5 turns, preventing the opponent from moving, but both players can switch; if the wrap user switches and the move doesn't end that turn they get a free switch, if the opponent switches and the move doesn't end that turn the wrap user is forced to click the move again, and if both people switch then nothing happens this means that if you outspeed the opponent (and don't forget paralysis is spammed in gen 1 due to max speed EVs and a lack of other wallbreaking tools) you just get to stunlock them... until the partial trapping move, which has at most 85% accuracy and is rather weak, misses so basically certain people on ladder will just spam paralysis and wrap and if they paralyze everything above 70 speed (victreebel's speed tier) and don't miss then their opponent can't move without risking their tauros
Stealth rock would be much more fun if it had more variants that effected other types differently. Even in the boots era I’ve always hated that fire flying and bug Pokémon HAVE to wear boots or you have to run insane hazard control. Give me rocks that hurt water types for SE. just make it so they don’t stack.
I'm surprised moves like Fake Out and U-turn weren't on the list considering that pretty much their entire thing is that there isn't much counterplay XD I somewhat disapprove of the OHKO move ban but I can understand the reasoning. Even so, if a match is going to be bet on a 30% chance that takes a valuable move slot, aren't the odds more against you than they are for you, especially now that stuff like body press and stored power exist.
hurricane is one of the moves i hate the most, at least in regards to singles metas. for a lot of pokemon that get it, it is their best offensive flying move, with air slash being the next best option with a significant drop off in power. the base power makes it hard to justify not using it but the accuracy can be so game deciding when it doesn't land. equally on the opponent's side, a 110 base power move with a chance to confuse is really difficult to play around if you don't have a resist on your team
Yeah. Pelipper is the only one that can reliably use it coz it brings its own Rain. Maybe since Wind is now a category, maybe there can be an ability that boost damage and accuracy of Wind moves. Or maybe a field effect that does the same. Or maybe just make Hurricane accurate on the side that have Tailwind on.
For me it has always been focus blast. Never will I forget missing 4/5 of my focus blasts and my opponent promptly saying “I think Gengar needs some glasses”
In the scald portion you neglect to mention how usually fire types are used to absorb burns from Will-o-wisp or things like Lava Plume but since Fire is weak to water there are a lot less options available to tank scald and not risk getting burned.
One other reason for Scald hate that wasn't mentioned is that the intuitive counterplay to a burn chance is to switch in a fire-type -- they can't be burned. But Scald is a water-type move! So you can't even do that since your fire-type will get smashed by it.
The problem with the removal of scald is that in doubles you don’t want to use surf in most situations so there’s a gap for special attacking water types not having an accurate, reliable STAB move. Also lol that Ray Rizzo’s bulky thunderous was so busted they had to nerf t-wave and confusion. Also interesting that in singles, rock isn’t really a good type but stealth rocks is so important that it’s effectively the most centralizing type.
Rock isn't a great defensive type but it is definitely one of the best offensive types in the game, especially when paired with ground coverage, making it the perfect complement to spikes. (Think rock spam+spikes in ADV OU and how it is largely nonexistent in DPP because why spam rock type attacks when you can just click 1 move and then spam spikes)
I'm surprised Thunderwave isn't on this list. Atleast back when paralyze was a little stronger. I guess I always felt getting both a speed penalty and a chance of not getting a turn was crazy punishing for a move that can stick it for free with 100% accuracy. Edit: I guess it's mentioned under Swagger.
yesss more like this!! not in a "i want it" way, but I genuinely like these types of videos from you and I think they'd do really good on your channel!
Pivot moves are getting up there thanks to Heavy Duty Boots, Regenerator, and especially Flip Turn being well-distributed. About 1/4th of all OU Pokémon can learn a pivot move, which is far too much imo. It's at the point where multiple Pokémon on the same team can easily run them, such as Amonomola and Meowscarda or Cinderace, which have natural synergy.
A move that I've recently began to loathe is Stored Power. Back when it was first released, it was balanced around the fact that next to nothing outside of Baton Pass chain teams used it. It took too long to make it worth using over Psyshock and Psychic. Nowadays however, it's ridiculously easy to get use out of it thanks to Weakness Policy and the abundance of Agility users with Cosmic Power. It's at the point where I don't find myself looking at competitive games anymore because I'd have to slog through several of those unfun battles just to play one fun match. Just not worth it these days.
my issue with stealth rocks is that its inconsistent with how spikes are handled, on top of only needing to spend one turn for the full effect of stealth rocks while Spikes need 3 turns despite not being effected by typing beyond flying having a spike immunity. There's also the fact you can *stack* all the different kinds of entry hazards, which is just unhealthy imo
In gen 8 nu, I was top 500 but the core of scald, wish, protect, vaporeon and rotom mow created an incredibly hard wall to break. Vaporeon often strait up beat all the good grass types in the tier. I wish Cloak was in gen 8
The problem with Stealth Rock isn't that it exists. The problem is that it's kind of busted and limits teambuilding. It's not good for the game that it cuts out 50% of 4x weak pokemon, and that it cripples fire and ice types.. Gen 5 is probably a great example of this, in that Fire and Ice are already amongst the weakest types in OU, and Stealth Rock makes them completely unviable. The goal of stealth rock was to create an entry hazard that affected flyers given how ubiquitous spikes was, but in that case it should have just done 25% to flyers and 12.5% to everything else.
I probably hate Mud Sport the most. Not only is it obviously a bad move in competitive play(which is fine. not every move has to do that), but also because in a single player story no npc is capable of properly using it to create an interesting challenge because 98% of battles are single battle & most users are ground type. Defeating the point of the move. At least with Water Sport some budew trainers get it incase you choose a fire starter.
Play rough. In theory of pretty decent physical fairy type move Until you get hit with the horrible realization that it’s 95% accurate and you’re about 50+ victory streak in some type of battle facility and just one simple miss causes you everything Yes, I’m projecting. Yes, I’m pissed
I personally am more annoyed of stealth rock because of how much it makes being weak to rock matter for a Pokémon’s viability and I think it would be better for the game if it just did a fixed amount regardless of typing. It being a entry hazard is fine and I think they should exist just maybe with a less of a massive difference in damage between targets.
Gen 6 Knock Off always felt a little overturned. The move had the great utility of taking away your items but it was only 20 BP. Gen 6 onwards has the move widely accessible and do 65 and have a 50% boost when the opponent has an item. Not the worst move in the world and even 20 was a little weak but still.
as a gen 3 ou enjoyer i'd like sand attack to be added in light of the ninjask menace. but honestly stealth rock is an interesting debate, and i personally think it's a bad thing overall. not because i don't want hazards, but i find spikes to be more than enough, with the 3 turn investment for max layers balancing them nicely, and i really hate how stealth rock punishes rock weak mons. as a general rule there are very few spike immune stall mons, and almost all of them were added from gen 4 onwards where rocks were in the game so if rocks weren't added they could have been nerfed to be more manageable. in gen 3 there's no need for rocks when we have spikes, mons like charizard and moltres are actually great rather than being boots reliant garbage, and rather than boots we had to use flying types or levitate. also hot take but rocks being so centralising and biased against certain mons is probably why gamefreak felt the need to add boots to the game, so now thanks to that overcorrection for the last 4 years the hazard meta has been nightmare fuel where it either feels like gen 2 or your opponent sets up spikes+rocks for free and knocks off all your boots
I remember using Swagger, T wave and Stomp on Stantler in gen 4 NU. It didn't work all the time, but when it did, it was amazing for me (and infuriating for my opponent)
I think stealth rock would be a lot less hated if it hit all types the same. Kind of sucks that it's like this pokemon would be good... but it's weak to stealth rocks. Could be interesting though if there were other type variations of stealth rocks like fire or electric that simply override the previous hazard. You could then pick your hazards to counter specific threats.
"Mega Sableye was actually banned in gen6 OU" is a hefty oversell of the situation when the ban happened exactly one day before metagame shifted to Gen7, and as such the ban had zero impact except for the few past gen competitive players... 10:58
I do dislike stealth because of it's ability to be super effective. seriously, what did Ice, flying, bug, and Fire types do to deserve to be hurt so badly? NONE of those were good defensive types to begin with (Fire got a little better with Fairy) and on top of that, they all tend to be on the frail side. Entry hazards are a good thing. But being always present made a lot of pokemon mostly infeasible without sacrificing their item slot.
I think one reason (out of many) why Gen 3 OU is so good is because there is no stealth rock. Personally I think spikes is much better balanced than stealth rock. You got to invest multiple turns to do more damage instead of just one. It is still effective, but doesn't completely cripple certain Pokemon. Granted, with a world of abilities like regenerator and other crazy healing options stealth rock is important to keep them in check. But honestly I think regenerator is way too good and shouldn't exist in the first place
The problem with Stealth Rock is that it's way too over-centralizing, everyone is basically forced to use it and thus types that resist rock are ALWAYS better than types weak to it. I wish they would add different type variants of Stealth Rock, like a Grass, Ice, or Fire version of the move, and you could only have one up at a time. It would make types with a rock weakness way more viable and introduce a ton of new strategies around picking the correct entry hazard.
Another nerf to the swagger/twave strat was Thunder Waves accuracy falling to 90% in Gen 7 I think Thunder Wave and Wil-o-wisp should get buffed to "can't miss" for same-type users like toxic does for Poison.
The guaranteed hit when a poison type uses Toxic is intended to be a direct buff to Poison types (historically one of the weaker offensive types), but more importantly it's meant to buff the poisoned condition, which is inherently weaker than the debuffs from being burned, paralyzed, or put to sleep
I know it wasn't on the list, but I always feel genuinely bad using Thunder Wave on opponents. I use it on my Slowking mostly for speed-control support, but since paralysis also has the chance to immobilize its victims, I always feel terrible clicking it. I wouldn't be surprised if people hated me for every time I've used it.
a big part of wht made scald hated is also you can't really which in burn immune pokemon to it since it's almost just fire types, you can swap in a fire type vs lava plume to resist it and be immune to the burn, the same isn't true for scald
Any move with 90% accuracy. Turns Pokemon into X-Com the number of times I've missed one of those moves and it cost me during regular gameplay. Looking specifically at Hisuan Samurott for Aqua Tail and Ceaseless Edge and the many, MANY times that cost me in Legends Arceus.
I think the defenders and detractors of stealth rock aren't necessarily in conflict. You can acknowledge that entry hazards generally are important for the balance of macro strategies (offense vs stall) but that stealth rock specifically is poorly designed. IMO there are 2 main problems with it. One is that it's detrimental to balance between individual Pokemon, especially ones that were designed before Stealth Rock existed. Volcarona was designed to be jacked to compensate for its 4x SR weakness, but older mons like Moltres, Charizard, Articuno, and the myriad bug/flying types have been unfairly saddled with an omnipresent and crippling weakness that they were never built to deal with. Bug and ice were already some of the worst types in the game even before SR was introduced, while steel and ground are some of the best, so SR widens the gap even more. The other problem is distribution: rock is one of the worst types, and so you'd think that possessing one of the best moves in the game would be a redeeming trait, but in practice it's not because everything else learns SR too including most ground and steel types, the pink blobs, and a bunch of other random stuff like Azelf and Torkoal. Ironically, most rock types make terrible SR setters because of their typically low speed and many weaknesses, and to add insult to injury they don't even resist it and often have the ability Sturdy which is countered by it. Both of these factors together can have a pretty regressive effect. It counters rock-weak Pokemon in a way that doesn't feel like an intentional strategic choice: my opponent isn't running SR to stop my Moltres, he's running because even at 1x effectiveness it's still really good, and as an added bonus it just happens to destroy Moltres. It doesn't feel earned or targeted. If SR was more of a situational response to the meta rather than a generically good move, or if you had to go out of your way to run an actual rock type like Rhyperior or Gigalith to get access to the effect, hitting that mon for 25 or 50% would feel like a payoff for good teambuilding rather than collateral damage from running a mandatory move.
i personally almost never use stealth rocks or any form of field hazzard, it doesn't fit my palystyle, but I acknowledge and accept how much of a staple they are and therefore I built to counter them instead of embracimg them. Usually i use Magic Bounce Hatterene and Court Change Cinderace, since they punish hazzard spam teams and can threaten Gholdengo with either Calm Mind, Nuzzle Hatt or Stab Pyro Ball/ Satb Sucker
surprised thunder wave isn't mentioned even when I use it I hate it cuz it misses in dire situations and if my opp uses it I'd still hate it (for obv reasons) that move is cheap
I'm not sure comparing no Stealth Rock to Mega Sableye is really fair since it blocks all entry hazards, not just Stealth Rock. Gen 3's a very healthy metagame and there Spikes is the only entry hazard.
honestly, I really like scald but I do wish it was reworked to a 20% burn chance dropped to 70bp, but made super effective against ice types. Just water type freeze dry essentially.
helping hand, splash, tail whip, leer (screech has MORE PP AND reduces fdefence "Sharply" instead regular) are some i can think of off the top of my head.
This is why Taunt is my signature move when playing competitively. There's such a sharp increase in Status move usage to create infuriating scenarios like these that running a move that can singlehandedly shut down 90% of them feels almost like a requirement. Also it helps that my favorite Ghost types learn it almost universally.
I'm personally fine if Scald got removed from most pokemon as a nerf, but I felt like GameFreak overdid it before the SV DLC, where only Volcanion could learn it in any way. And since Volcanion already had access to Steam Eruption, a stronger version of Scald, it essentially made the move completely non-existent.
The thing about ally switch that I don’t understand is that why it’s so much more hated than follow me, which is just a more consistent ally switch that is also harder to break thru. I myself also hate ally switch way more but I have no clue why
Focus Blast should have 80 accuracy. That brings its average power only slightly higher than Fire Blast, which is fair given that Fire Blast has a way stronger secondary effect.
Knock off is probably my most hated move. It is too strong, a great typing and too many pokemon can use it. The fact it gets more damage by knocking off an item is backwards in my mind.
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no thx
Love your vids but when you put a list of the moves at the start of the video I feel no desire to watch all the way through. Tbf these kinds of videos are probably for people who don’t know why those moves are hated so ig I’m no longer the target audience
get that bag king
Marvel is also on the BDS list, but I'm thankful it's not better help at least. I hope you get picked up by a team or something so you don't gotta deal w as much as the shitty advertisers.
would sooner dip my head in the water tank of a nuclear reactor
So there was actually another layer to what made Fissure Ting-Lu so good. Due to a unique quirk of physical ground types in doubles, Fissure was actually a move with no inherent downside for it. Due to Earthquake also hitting your partner in doubles, most physical ground types run either High Horsepower or Stomping Tantrum. Stomping Tantrum is 75 Base Power, but it doubles to 150 if your previous move failed to connect by any means. Failing, being paralyzed, confused, but most importantly for Ting-Lu, missing. This meant that Ting-Lu could throw off a Fissure, and if it hit, you got a free ko, but if it missed you just super powered up your Stomping Tantrum next turn.
That actually is really interesting. Essentially a free fissure as long as Ting-Lu can survive as 150BP Stomping is like pressing it twice. Even better since it’s harder to recover away from lethal ranges too.
Stomping tantrum actually doesn’t double when hitting into protect
@@purplereign2410 oh, I thought it did. My mistake. I will update my comment. Thank you!
I swear Freezai made a video on that before?
@@Shaggy87781 th-cam.com/video/0LQe18FVwTM/w-d-xo.html this from 10 months ago, Idk if it was made before or after wolfeys one
They say that if you look in a mirror and say 'Stealth Rock' 3 times, a Charizard fan teleports behind you and smashes your head in with their Heavy-Duty Boots.
Instructions incomplete, a volcarona fan just came in and gave me a pair of heavy duty boots thinking I would need them and was scared of stealth rock before that.
I'm a try this.
My Charizard Plush flew a way.
i did this and my espeon now has magic bounce
it's still hilarious to me that Scald's chance of burning you is the same as Fissure's chance of killing you is the same as Focus Blast's chance of missing. really puts things in perspective.
30% really crosses the line for most people as far as Pokémon RNG is concerned
Thing is scald always does damage
70%-80% is the most annoying chance, it's reliable enough that you think you should use it and be good with it a large majority of the time, but it feels like 50/50 odds in practice. 85% is only where things start feeling pretty reliable, and you expect 50-60% to be a rough chance. it's right on the borderline.
@@goGothitaLOL or RNG in general, any game (mostly gachas) with Critical Hit Rate stats I never hit crits at 70% Crit Rate, but ALWAYS hit crits at 30% Crit Rate
As we like to say "gengar, focus miss"
Mega Gardevoir literally smokes cigarettes on a park bench cause of this move.
“That’s a focus blast where’s the focus in that ?”
Even the anime makes fun of focus miss
Another reason why I feel like focus blast has gotten it’s reputation is due to its animation on showdown. When you use the move there’s a whole second where the animation plays but you can’t tell if it hit or missed. It really gets you that little bit excited before seeing the move miss and all the happiness is ripped out of you
idk man, this meme has been around ever since
Scald is also similarly hated in pokemon go, because it has a 50% chance to drop both attacks by 25%, and is one of the best damage moves in the game
Holy shit that's based imo Lmfao
scald went from 30% to 50% and this season is back to 30% lmfao
Tentacruel also terrorizes UL with scald, along with poliwrath in GL/UL and whiscash in GL
Poliwrath is kinda funny because it also has icy wind which is a guaranteed -1 attack but scald hits hard on STAB so you can totally run scald/icy wind together
A dishonorable mention I would like to bring attention to is Moonblast.
-95 BP and 100% accuracy in spite of the Gen 6 nerfs to BP of similar moves in Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam.
-30% Special Attack drop chance, the same as Scald's burn chance.
-Fairy type being a top 5 offensive type makes it good as a coverage move, too.
-Bizarre distribution where some fairy types like Tapu Koko or Alcremie are stuck with Dazzling Gleam, but then pokemon like Gourgeist, Vileplume, and Muk (likely pokedex reasons for the latter) just have it.
-Still given to pokemon that would be good with just Dazzling Gleam like Flutter Mane, (Mega) Diancie, and Xerneas.
I think it's one of the main reasons people believe fairy type has become the very thing it was meant to destroy, the Gen 5 Dragons.
Meanwhile play rough didn’t get the same love being a 90% accurate move
@@SJradI seriously don't understand why they couldn't just make a 100% accurate physical fairy move. hell, make it 80 BP even, still would be better than missing in those crucial moments
I wouldn’t call Fairy a top 5 offensive type, but maybe that’s just my bias as a VGC player, where Amoongus and Fire Types are everywhere.
Moonblast is still objectively an overturned move, but I’d also argue a SpAt drop isn’t a huge deal, as it only hurts other special attackers.
@@elliotw.888never mind a 100% accuracy move, how about more physical fairy moves in general, 4 generations and there are only 2 of them, one of which is a signiture move!
@@Endershock1678 Yeah the special attack drop can be brutal, but it's no where as strong as scald's burn.
Burn stays on the Pokémon even if they switch out and does damage on top of the stat drop.
13:36 Wow fissure has a crazy secondary effect. No wonder it is hated
I get that is a joke but the idea of fissure having a secondary effect on the opponent makes me chuckle
I thought confusion had been lowered from 50% to 33% in gen 7.
That is correct, Freezai got it wrong in the video. 33% is still a backbreaking nerf for Swagger, but I have no idea where he got 25% as a number.
@@SpolcypsProbably because it was paralysis that was also nerfed to reduce a Pokémon's speed to 50% instead of 25%. Maybe, he mixed that all up. Confusion, as discussed, is still a 33% percent hit chance instead of 25%, since Generation 7.
I mean, homeboy also stated fissure is a 30% accurate move that has a 10% chance to lower your spdef
@@Spolcyps😢
@@risingtoastcheesecake4730it may be true but your pokemon faints before the stat reduction so you never know
Ally Switch is a move I've really changed thoughts on over the years. I was at a regional in 2015 - before it got massive distribution - and I wanted redirection but I didn't like the existing options. I decided to go with a mindgame option that only worked once guaranteed, but I needed to use something like Gardevoir or Alakazam at the time. I liked using it, partially because it filled the niche I needed, but also because it felt involved! It's like Protect mind games but in reverse. I had thought then "I wish I could use this on more Pokemon"
In hindsight, the monkey's paw curled menacingly in response and I should've known a bit better. Giving the move to something like Cresselia or Shedinja was a mistake, and the sheer number of Pokemon using it meant it was *everywhere*. This is why something like this (and even Follow Me) is only really healthy as a niche tool. An important niche, but can't be expanded too far. It can just cause strategy to not be relevant anymore, and it's even worse when it becomes a coinflip. At least with normal redirection overuse is punished more easily.
I remember back in XY I think using Ally Switch Mega Gardevoir on the VGV ladder. I really thought I was cooking with that one, and wondered why more people didn't use Ally Switch. Little did I know how much I didn't want more people to use it...
Really, I think the issue with Scald is that the burn chance is actually higher than most Fire Type moves. If it had a lower burn chance, then I don't think it would have been as much of a problem as it was.
I've seen people complain Scald is fundamentally poorly designed given its a move that can burn but you don't want your Pokemon immune to burns to switch in on it, quite the opposite in fact. Though Scorching Sands, a slightly weaker Ground-type (also super effective vs Fire) Scald, is considered a mediocre move at best and rarely used beyond a few lower tier examples to my knowledge. Granted though, Ground-type moves are easier to pivot around than Water-type ones. (The difficulty of switching into Water-type moves has gotten a few Pokemon outright banned in certain context like Dracovish in Smogon Gen 8)
I would argue it still does, because more burn moves get blanked by… fire types, but this is the one move that burns you that you NEVER wanna switch a fire type into. It’s similar to Scorching Sands, but that had worse distribution (by a lot), lower burn chance, less BP, less PP, and has to compete with EQ.
@@CoffeeFlavoredMilk
Scorching Sands has a lot more holding it back than just being ground type and needing to compete with EQ, it’s straight up worse than Scald in every way.
@@CoffeeFlavoredMilk Scorching sands is blocked by every flying type and levitator, which makes it far worse than the lower dmg. Scald was present on bulky water types that could fish for the 30%. Ground types are usually offensive and too frail to last long. The bulky ground types that got Scorching Sands are usually physical and it wasn't give to the powerhouses of Tinglu or the paradox donophans. The best users of it tend to be fire types and at that point it loses stab and is just a coverage move.
Add to that the fact that most fire-type moves have a very low chance of burn at 10%. The exceptions are either legendary-exclusive moves (Sacred Fire, 50%; Searing Shot, 20%), completely inaccurate moves (Inferno, 100% to burn but only 50% to hit) or have a very poor distribution (Lava Plume, 30%, which has to compete for a spot with Flamethrower AND also hits your partner in a double battle).
The thing was so obnoxious that even fire-types were using Scald to fish burns at a time (namely, bulky Gen5 Emboar)
I suspect the other main reason some players hate Stealth Rock is because there are no other elemental equivalents. There is no Ice, Fire, Dark, or Ghost version of SR, so it feels like the same types get arbitrarily nerfed every game instead of players having to decide which trap is best to set up.
Hazard access and removal is also a problem. About a fifth of pokemon can use rocks and or some other hazard, but rapid spin, and later defog, is far more exclusive and high risk (plus, mortal spin only exists on one poke, and tidy up is nearly as rare). And then there's Goldengo.
@@nobodyspecial2053Gholdengo is so FUCKING LUCKY that Pursuit was removed.
It’s because Flying types dodged spikes, so they chose Rock to make sure they get fair treatment of hazards… and then ice, fire, and bug types had to suffer for the sins of the flying types.
@@Endershock1678
That just means they knew applying type resistances to spikes and entry hazards was a horrible idea after they saw spikes in action. The optimal solution would have been to remove type immunities to hazards.
@@Varatho Or to introduce a different sort of hazard that affected Flying types but not, idk, a weaker type that needs the defensive boost (Ice or Rock or something). Making a hazard that screws over some types and buffs types that really don't need it like Steel was silly.
One point on Scald I think was understated was how significant the move being water type is. Fire is the type immune to burn, and there are very few water immunities (just the ability-based ones). Lava Plume and Scorching Sands exist but aren't nearly as oppressive because there are entire types that can basically ignore the move (lava plume does negligible damage to + can't burn fire types, and airborne pokemon are immune to ground). But with scald, the answer to burns (fire type) is actually *weak* to water, so the move still does double damage there, and no types are water and burn immune.
Not only that but Scorching Sands is 10 less BP than Scald.
It's worth noting that every water-immune Pokémon is immune to Scald burns, they just aren't immune to other sources (tbf, even now Scald is the most common source of burns)
@@1umbreon4life False; Volcanion.
5:16 except some flying types don't even have air slash, and physical flying types that aren't birds get basically no STAB
Dual Wingbeat since Gen 8 (Dragonite lost it in Gen 9 cause of Tera Normal E-Speed)
Isn't the problem with Stealth Rocks that it takes types into account, not the passive damage? Especially since sneaky stones hits Pokemon who are typically less defensive for SE damage. The only defensive stall types that get affected are Flying Pokemon, meanwhile Bug is made much worse, Ice is made much worse, Steel is even better, etc. For bulky waters, grasses, normals, etc it's just regular passive damage.
Yeah, it makes some typing just unviable
Yeah, the way he just glosses that over is annyoing
Most people don't have any hate toward one hit K-O moves-
Nuzlocked players whose life got ruined by a Sheer Cold: 💀
Glacia, sitting atop a throne of frozen corpses: "Hello there."
you clearly haven't played or seen anything about VGC Regulation C
14:13 Double Team increases evasion by one stage (unless the user has Simple). It's Minimize that boosts evasion two stages.
Almost every Pokemon get double team though while barely any get minimize
@@ChainsSSBwhich is weird cuz Minimize is something all pokemon do when they faint in the games.
@@Skullhawk13 And then you can't hit them anymore. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
Oh yeah, and the worst part of scald is that the type immune to burn, Fire, gets hit super effectively. Only bulky fire types like Heatran can switch into it and even then they can only switch into to weak scalds from mons like Toxapex. That move + its distribution for 4 gens is one of the most baffling decisions GF has ever made.
a classic one is Gen 1 Submission. It has not great accuracy (a bit better than focus blast), has big recoil, and is still weaker than moves like double edge. Its only really used when you have to use it and even then rarely. Its best case scenario is probably killing a chansey or dying to a recoil so the chansey cannot use its turn to softboiled (as in gen 1, if a pokemon faints the turn just ends)
The other issue is have with stealth rocks is that its less of a commitment than spikes, but more reward (unless your name is hisuian samurott),
Also, one of the hazard removal options, defog, is mostly used on flying type who will take additional damage from rocks aka leading to less counterplay. Yeah heavy duty boots exist but you are giving up your item slot which could’ve been used for extra damage or recovery
it’s funny to say that there are so many more moves missing on this list
Part 2 gonna be insane clearly
Toxic (prior to Gen 9), Knock Off (prior to Gen 9, to an lesser extent), U-Turn, Teleport (literally only in Gen 8), Wild Charge, Shadow Punch/Claw (prior to Poltergeist’s existence in general 8 onwards), Stone Edge (or any physical Rock move for that matter, except the signature ones), Moonblast or Play Rough, Spore/Sleep Powder (and to an lesser extent Hypnosis), Zen Headbutt, Dual Wingbeat, Last Respects
What else am I’m missing?
its hard to be annoyed at stealth rocks now that boots are out. The real cost of it to me was always how it rained down asymmetrically on pokemons, making many type combinations almost unplayable in some formats. Its hard to believe that if they added ice spikes or grass thorns (entry hazards that cant coexist with rocks but otherwise function the same) wouldnt be hugely warping and divisive in the meta.
spikes existed for years before rocks and it wasnt close to as divisive as the discussion around stealth rocks
13:36 I had no idea, thanks for letting me know fissure also has a hidden 10% chance to lower spdef, I can now see why it's hated so much :)
I think no one would have had a problem with stealth rock if the distribution wasn't as extreme. Like, everyone and there uncle learn the move, and it's a good one, so you don't have to sacrifice a team slot with a bad pokemon to get SR in. And the conclusion is that everyone gets SR in one of their pokemon, because you can get it on pretty much whatever top tier threat you want. An offensive one, a defensive one, a fast one, a psychic type, fire type, fighting type, flying type etc... I think gamefreak did a good job with sticky web for instance, and incredible move, but only shuckle and other rejects learn it. That way you have to commit to somthing bad to run the move, and it has to be an integral part of you overall strategy. But with SR, you just slap it on your team. You don't use it as an answer to volcarona or charizard that your team or strategy is weak yo. You just slap it in there without even thinking about it. And then pokemon like yanmega never see the light of day, or only in lower tiers, just because they're weak to rock. Slapping SR on your team isn't a choice, its mandatory if you're trying to win, and so putting a pokemon weak to the move is juste shooting yourself in the foot, and in my opinion very limiting when it comes to teambuilding. Banning the move altogether isn't healthy either for the reason you mentionned, but it might be the move i hate the most just because of how much of a missed opportunity it is. It could have been absolutely amazing and balanced, but it had to be overpowered as fuck and warp every singles metagame since its introduction around it.
Stealth Rock reminds me of Maxx 'C' in Yu-Gi-Oh. Maxx C allows you to draw a card every time your opponent special summons a monster. This is is extremely common on offensive decks and so weather or not Maxx C is banned can define an entire meta. As proof one of the YGO formats (OCG) has Maxx C allowed at 3 copies per deck and the other(TCG) has it completely banned. As such OCG games and tournaments have higher average turn counts and a meta with a Agro/stall balance while TCG is almost always Aggro only.
Sounds to me like OCG knows what it's doing!
9:40 Stealth Rock basically makes defending against Rock types like. The most important defensive matchup XD
Except it’s Ground and Steel types (with the occasional Clefable) that run the move, simply because they don’t have 5 weaknesses with all but one being common
the other issue with scald is that only fire types are immune to burn, but scald is water type which does extra damage to fire types
Ally Switch is an interesting move to me because when I first saw it it immediately reminded of the shift action in triple battles where Pokémon on the left or right could use shift to swap with the middle Pokémon. Since Triple Battles got removed in Gen7 it looks like they used shift as inspiration for making ally switch. It hindsight it makes it look like shift was an extra move slot every Pokémon got in Triple Battles.
I once got trapped by a random trainer's Butterfree spamming sleep powder and supersonic for what seemed to be an eternity and it was honestly a traumatic experience.
Gen 5 Watchogs are a nightmare. At a low level they get Hypnosis and Confuse Ray. Plus, Super Fang, Sand Attack, Mean Look, and Detect. Those things are everywhere, in the wild and on trainer teams. It's just constant harassment.
Phenac City Colosseum had Sand Veil Gligar and Cacturne spamming Double Team. It was so sad :(
What’s more likely to happen?
Hitting Focus Blast
Or
Flinching with Iron Head Jirachi.
Focus Blast's 70 accuracy is slightly higher than Iron head jirachi's 60 flinch chance, although i think they're even in Gen 4 if you give jirachi a king's rock (this doesn't affect Iron head in gen 5 onward)
Completely dependent on if it's me or the opponent using the moves.
I’d also say dark pulse / waterfall, because they are annoying both for the opponent who can get flinched, and for the mon who needs to use an 80 bp move for stab ie hydreigon and gyarados
What's up lavos? Haven't heard from you in quite some time
don't forget gen 1 partial trapping
the way wrap, bind, clamp and fire spin work in gen 1 is that they last 2-5 turns, preventing the opponent from moving, but both players can switch; if the wrap user switches and the move doesn't end that turn they get a free switch, if the opponent switches and the move doesn't end that turn the wrap user is forced to click the move again, and if both people switch then nothing happens
this means that if you outspeed the opponent (and don't forget paralysis is spammed in gen 1 due to max speed EVs and a lack of other wallbreaking tools) you just get to stunlock them... until the partial trapping move, which has at most 85% accuracy and is rather weak, misses
so basically certain people on ladder will just spam paralysis and wrap and if they paralyze everything above 70 speed (victreebel's speed tier) and don't miss then their opponent can't move without risking their tauros
The description for dazzling gleam just being *"GET DAZZLED!"* was too funny to me
Wat, I never knew Ally Switch was nerfed! No wonder we don't see Wolfey complaining about the move xD
I just found found out about it myself.
It does explain why we don't see it as much.
Me : Can you please allow me to hit this focus blast so I can win
Rng : No
My opponent : Can I hit this fissure
Rng : definitely why not
Bias for 30% chances
It's actually really encouraging to hear how a lot of these frustrations have been at least somewhat mitigated in newer gens
The issue with stealth rocks is the type based damage
It invalidates a LOT of Pokémon just because they're bug, fire, etc.
Stealth rock would be much more fun if it had more variants that effected other types differently. Even in the boots era I’ve always hated that fire flying and bug Pokémon HAVE to wear boots or you have to run insane hazard control. Give me rocks that hurt water types for SE. just make it so they don’t stack.
I'm surprised moves like Fake Out and U-turn weren't on the list considering that pretty much their entire thing is that there isn't much counterplay XD I somewhat disapprove of the OHKO move ban but I can understand the reasoning. Even so, if a match is going to be bet on a 30% chance that takes a valuable move slot, aren't the odds more against you than they are for you, especially now that stuff like body press and stored power exist.
"The opposing miltank used attract" 💀
hurricane is one of the moves i hate the most, at least in regards to singles metas. for a lot of pokemon that get it, it is their best offensive flying move, with air slash being the next best option with a significant drop off in power. the base power makes it hard to justify not using it but the accuracy can be so game deciding when it doesn't land. equally on the opponent's side, a 110 base power move with a chance to confuse is really difficult to play around if you don't have a resist on your team
Yeah. Pelipper is the only one that can reliably use it coz it brings its own Rain. Maybe since Wind is now a category, maybe there can be an ability that boost damage and accuracy of Wind moves. Or maybe a field effect that does the same. Or maybe just make Hurricane accurate on the side that have Tailwind on.
For me it has always been focus blast. Never will I forget missing 4/5 of my focus blasts and my opponent promptly saying “I think Gengar needs some glasses”
2:50 porygon2 doesn't get flamethrower, which is kinda sad because the porygon line would have loved fire coverage
In the scald portion you neglect to mention how usually fire types are used to absorb burns from Will-o-wisp or things like Lava Plume but since Fire is weak to water there are a lot less options available to tank scald and not risk getting burned.
One other reason for Scald hate that wasn't mentioned is that the intuitive counterplay to a burn chance is to switch in a fire-type -- they can't be burned. But Scald is a water-type move! So you can't even do that since your fire-type will get smashed by it.
The problem with the removal of scald is that in doubles you don’t want to use surf in most situations so there’s a gap for special attacking water types not having an accurate, reliable STAB move. Also lol that Ray Rizzo’s bulky thunderous was so busted they had to nerf t-wave and confusion. Also interesting that in singles, rock isn’t really a good type but stealth rocks is so important that it’s effectively the most centralizing type.
That being said, Water Pulse needs more attention.
Rock isn't a great defensive type but it is definitely one of the best offensive types in the game, especially when paired with ground coverage, making it the perfect complement to spikes. (Think rock spam+spikes in ADV OU and how it is largely nonexistent in DPP because why spam rock type attacks when you can just click 1 move and then spam spikes)
what's even more annoying about fissure is its 10% chance to drop spdef, doesn't happen a lot but it can be game changing
I hate when I get a spdef drop from a fissure, it completely destroys my strategy.
Like man that 10 is killer I got fissured and then i could live one Draco but alas the 10 got me
I'm surprised Thunderwave isn't on this list. Atleast back when paralyze was a little stronger. I guess I always felt getting both a speed penalty and a chance of not getting a turn was crazy punishing for a move that can stick it for free with 100% accuracy.
Edit: I guess it's mentioned under Swagger.
yesss more like this!! not in a "i want it" way, but I genuinely like these types of videos from you and I think they'd do really good on your channel!
Pivot moves are getting up there thanks to Heavy Duty Boots, Regenerator, and especially Flip Turn being well-distributed.
About 1/4th of all OU Pokémon can learn a pivot move, which is far too much imo.
It's at the point where multiple Pokémon on the same team can easily run them, such as Amonomola and Meowscarda or Cinderace, which have natural synergy.
A move that I've recently began to loathe is Stored Power. Back when it was first released, it was balanced around the fact that next to nothing outside of Baton Pass chain teams used it. It took too long to make it worth using over Psyshock and Psychic. Nowadays however, it's ridiculously easy to get use out of it thanks to Weakness Policy and the abundance of Agility users with Cosmic Power. It's at the point where I don't find myself looking at competitive games anymore because I'd have to slog through several of those unfun battles just to play one fun match. Just not worth it these days.
Espathra, anyone?
my issue with stealth rocks is that its inconsistent with how spikes are handled, on top of only needing to spend one turn for the full effect of stealth rocks while Spikes need 3 turns despite not being effected by typing beyond flying having a spike immunity. There's also the fact you can *stack* all the different kinds of entry hazards, which is just unhealthy imo
In gen 8 nu, I was top 500 but the core of scald, wish, protect, vaporeon and rotom mow created an incredibly hard wall to break. Vaporeon often strait up beat all the good grass types in the tier. I wish Cloak was in gen 8
Swagger is the most passive aggressive move ever.
The problem with Stealth Rock isn't that it exists. The problem is that it's kind of busted and limits teambuilding. It's not good for the game that it cuts out 50% of 4x weak pokemon, and that it cripples fire and ice types..
Gen 5 is probably a great example of this, in that Fire and Ice are already amongst the weakest types in OU, and Stealth Rock makes them completely unviable.
The goal of stealth rock was to create an entry hazard that affected flyers given how ubiquitous spikes was, but in that case it should have just done 25% to flyers and 12.5% to everything else.
My issue isn't stealth rock as much as how many pokemon it invalidates, I feel like it should just hit everything for neutral
i’m loving the editing in these newer videos freezai, really shows how much time and dedication you put into making them !
I probably hate Mud Sport the most. Not only is it obviously a bad move in competitive play(which is fine. not every move has to do that), but also because in a single player story no npc is capable of properly using it to create an interesting challenge because 98% of battles are single battle & most users are ground type. Defeating the point of the move. At least with Water Sport some budew trainers get it incase you choose a fire starter.
13:36
Also Double Team only raises evasion by 1 stage. Minimize is the move that raises Evasion by 2 stages
And Confusion has a 33.3% chance, not 25%.
Play rough.
In theory of pretty decent physical fairy type move
Until you get hit with the horrible realization that it’s 95% accurate and you’re about 50+ victory streak in some type of battle facility and just one simple miss causes you everything
Yes, I’m projecting.
Yes, I’m pissed
90% not 95%.
I personally am more annoyed of stealth rock because of how much it makes being weak to rock matter for a Pokémon’s viability and I think it would be better for the game if it just did a fixed amount regardless of typing. It being a entry hazard is fine and I think they should exist just maybe with a less of a massive difference in damage between targets.
Strength sap is my most hated move, at least in randbats
That's mostly due to the level distribution in rand bats. Strength sap is balanced around everyone being level 50
@@danielgysi5729I didn't think about that, the level differences do make it a stronger heal
I like Alakazam a lot, but Focus Blast lost me so many battles that i actually stopped using it as my psychic type.
Scald is also hated because the only type that cannot be burned is fire, which is weak to water. So there's effectivelly nothing that resists Scald.
Gen 6 Knock Off always felt a little overturned. The move had the great utility of taking away your items but it was only 20 BP. Gen 6 onwards has the move widely accessible and do 65 and have a 50% boost when the opponent has an item. Not the worst move in the world and even 20 was a little weak but still.
as a gen 3 ou enjoyer i'd like sand attack to be added in light of the ninjask menace. but honestly stealth rock is an interesting debate, and i personally think it's a bad thing overall. not because i don't want hazards, but i find spikes to be more than enough, with the 3 turn investment for max layers balancing them nicely, and i really hate how stealth rock punishes rock weak mons. as a general rule there are very few spike immune stall mons, and almost all of them were added from gen 4 onwards where rocks were in the game so if rocks weren't added they could have been nerfed to be more manageable. in gen 3 there's no need for rocks when we have spikes, mons like charizard and moltres are actually great rather than being boots reliant garbage, and rather than boots we had to use flying types or levitate. also hot take but rocks being so centralising and biased against certain mons is probably why gamefreak felt the need to add boots to the game, so now thanks to that overcorrection for the last 4 years the hazard meta has been nightmare fuel where it either feels like gen 2 or your opponent sets up spikes+rocks for free and knocks off all your boots
I remember using Swagger, T wave and Stomp on Stantler in gen 4 NU. It didn't work all the time, but when it did, it was amazing for me (and infuriating for my opponent)
I think stealth rock would be a lot less hated if it hit all types the same. Kind of sucks that it's like this pokemon would be good... but it's weak to stealth rocks. Could be interesting though if there were other type variations of stealth rocks like fire or electric that simply override the previous hazard. You could then pick your hazards to counter specific threats.
"Mega Sableye was actually banned in gen6 OU" is a hefty oversell of the situation when the ban happened exactly one day before metagame shifted to Gen7, and as such the ban had zero impact except for the few past gen competitive players... 10:58
I do dislike stealth because of it's ability to be super effective.
seriously, what did Ice, flying, bug, and Fire types do to deserve to be hurt so badly? NONE of those were good defensive types to begin with (Fire got a little better with Fairy) and on top of that, they all tend to be on the frail side. Entry hazards are a good thing. But being always present made a lot of pokemon mostly infeasible without sacrificing their item slot.
I think one reason (out of many) why Gen 3 OU is so good is because there is no stealth rock.
Personally I think spikes is much better balanced than stealth rock. You got to invest multiple turns to do more damage instead of just one. It is still effective, but doesn't completely cripple certain Pokemon.
Granted, with a world of abilities like regenerator and other crazy healing options stealth rock is important to keep them in check. But honestly I think regenerator is way too good and shouldn't exist in the first place
As a Volcarona fan, Stealth Rock saddens me
The problem with Stealth Rock is that it's way too over-centralizing, everyone is basically forced to use it and thus types that resist rock are ALWAYS better than types weak to it. I wish they would add different type variants of Stealth Rock, like a Grass, Ice, or Fire version of the move, and you could only have one up at a time. It would make types with a rock weakness way more viable and introduce a ton of new strategies around picking the correct entry hazard.
Congrats on the sponsor! Making it into the big leagues with this one!
Another nerf to the swagger/twave strat was Thunder Waves accuracy falling to 90% in Gen 7
I think Thunder Wave and Wil-o-wisp should get buffed to "can't miss" for same-type users like toxic does for Poison.
The guaranteed hit when a poison type uses Toxic is intended to be a direct buff to Poison types (historically one of the weaker offensive types), but more importantly it's meant to buff the poisoned condition, which is inherently weaker than the debuffs from being burned, paralyzed, or put to sleep
will o is more thematically fitting for ghosts than it is for fire tho
twave i agree tho
I know it wasn't on the list, but I always feel genuinely bad using Thunder Wave on opponents. I use it on my Slowking mostly for speed-control support, but since paralysis also has the chance to immobilize its victims, I always feel terrible clicking it. I wouldn't be surprised if people hated me for every time I've used it.
3:33 COROMON LET'S GO that's the Hayville battle background from Coromon
7:58 here too
a big part of wht made scald hated is also you can't really which in burn immune pokemon to it since it's almost just fire types, you can swap in a fire type vs lava plume to resist it and be immune to the burn, the same isn't true for scald
Any move with 90% accuracy. Turns Pokemon into X-Com the number of times I've missed one of those moves and it cost me during regular gameplay. Looking specifically at Hisuan Samurott for Aqua Tail and Ceaseless Edge and the many, MANY times that cost me in Legends Arceus.
I think the defenders and detractors of stealth rock aren't necessarily in conflict. You can acknowledge that entry hazards generally are important for the balance of macro strategies (offense vs stall) but that stealth rock specifically is poorly designed. IMO there are 2 main problems with it.
One is that it's detrimental to balance between individual Pokemon, especially ones that were designed before Stealth Rock existed. Volcarona was designed to be jacked to compensate for its 4x SR weakness, but older mons like Moltres, Charizard, Articuno, and the myriad bug/flying types have been unfairly saddled with an omnipresent and crippling weakness that they were never built to deal with. Bug and ice were already some of the worst types in the game even before SR was introduced, while steel and ground are some of the best, so SR widens the gap even more.
The other problem is distribution: rock is one of the worst types, and so you'd think that possessing one of the best moves in the game would be a redeeming trait, but in practice it's not because everything else learns SR too including most ground and steel types, the pink blobs, and a bunch of other random stuff like Azelf and Torkoal. Ironically, most rock types make terrible SR setters because of their typically low speed and many weaknesses, and to add insult to injury they don't even resist it and often have the ability Sturdy which is countered by it.
Both of these factors together can have a pretty regressive effect. It counters rock-weak Pokemon in a way that doesn't feel like an intentional strategic choice: my opponent isn't running SR to stop my Moltres, he's running because even at 1x effectiveness it's still really good, and as an added bonus it just happens to destroy Moltres. It doesn't feel earned or targeted. If SR was more of a situational response to the meta rather than a generically good move, or if you had to go out of your way to run an actual rock type like Rhyperior or Gigalith to get access to the effect, hitting that mon for 25 or 50% would feel like a payoff for good teambuilding rather than collateral damage from running a mandatory move.
I think Rock Slide deserves to be here.
- Good move
- Low accuracy
- Flinch chance
6:00 Focus Blast has excellent accuracy in Explorers of Time :)
i personally almost never use stealth rocks or any form of field hazzard, it doesn't fit my palystyle, but I acknowledge and accept how much of a staple they are and therefore I built to counter them instead of embracimg them. Usually i use Magic Bounce Hatterene and Court Change Cinderace, since they punish hazzard spam teams and can threaten Gholdengo with either Calm Mind, Nuzzle Hatt or Stab Pyro Ball/ Satb Sucker
surprised thunder wave isn't mentioned
even when I use it I hate it cuz it misses in dire situations and if my opp uses it I'd still hate it (for obv reasons)
that move is cheap
The worst part about focus blast is that in spanish it is call "onda certera" which can be translated to accurate/precise blast...
I'm not sure comparing no Stealth Rock to Mega Sableye is really fair since it blocks all entry hazards, not just Stealth Rock. Gen 3's a very healthy metagame and there Spikes is the only entry hazard.
honestly, I really like scald but I do wish it was reworked to a 20% burn chance dropped to 70bp, but made super effective against ice types. Just water type freeze dry essentially.
helping hand, splash, tail whip, leer (screech has MORE PP AND reduces fdefence "Sharply" instead regular) are some i can think of off the top of my head.
Expanding Force is one I personally despise. PsySpam is such an unfun strat to fight
This is why Taunt is my signature move when playing competitively. There's such a sharp increase in Status move usage to create infuriating scenarios like these that running a move that can singlehandedly shut down 90% of them feels almost like a requirement. Also it helps that my favorite Ghost types learn it almost universally.
You the aerodacyl noob?
@@CodPatrol Never used an Aerodactyl in my life, so no.
No salt cure?!!
Like your music taste, RJ Pasin the goat.
I'm personally fine if Scald got removed from most pokemon as a nerf, but I felt like GameFreak overdid it before the SV DLC, where only Volcanion could learn it in any way. And since Volcanion already had access to Steam Eruption, a stronger version of Scald, it essentially made the move completely non-existent.
The thing about ally switch that I don’t understand is that why it’s so much more hated than follow me, which is just a more consistent ally switch that is also harder to break thru. I myself also hate ally switch way more but I have no clue why
Focus Blast should have 80 accuracy. That brings its average power only slightly higher than Fire Blast, which is fair given that Fire Blast has a way stronger secondary effect.
Knock off is probably my most hated move. It is too strong, a great typing and too many pokemon can use it. The fact it gets more damage by knocking off an item is backwards in my mind.
Gen 6 completely killed psychic type with fairy and knock off boost.
5:25 Yeah.
I think there have been times where I ran Tera Fighting Tera Blast XD
Focus Miss
Stone Mass
Draco Miss
Don't forget Hurri Miss and Hydro Miss
Meteor miss
Thun-miss
also there is Fire Miss
Why is hold hands at no.1?