This put me off Zero forever. Cant wait to Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki starts electrifying and completly wipe Zero off the map. Zero just cant seem to get their act together.
Zero still rules the commuter game with their S and FXE models, but for higher-end long range bikes, they keep falling short of what Energicas could do years ago. Even the Livewire is $5k cheaper, which seems crazy to me!
@@NewZeroland I just traded my 3 yr old FXS and got the FXE. This platform is Zero's crown jewel IMHO. Urban missile than can cope with light offroad with ease, I adore them. Prob the most fun bikes I've ever ridden and there's been many over the years.
@@NewZeroland Here in italy, a 2022 SR/S Premium with all upgrades would cost 29715 Euros, while an Energica Eva Ribelle with the same optionals would be 33047. The livewire starts at 34200
I've been riding ICE bikes for over 20 years, and that technology is such that almost any modification is possible by almost any rider, without any interaction with the manufacturer. The Zero and any other bike is controlled and in fact only usable because of a computer. It is the basic nature of the type of motor used. Science, and no complaining is even defensible. What I expect to happen is that some intrepid rider will crack the software on the bike, and open the floodgates...owners will be able to modify their rides and take charge of their charge. I have a 2014 SR bought 2nd or 3rd-hand, with very low miles on it. The closest dealer to me is 200 miles away. Not gonna happen. I will do what I must, without trailering my ride and leaving it there for an indefinite period of time, for an indifferent parts-changer to suck the life out of my wallet. At 74 years of age I am not going to spend big bux on a new bike and then have to get a smart phone just to keep the bike going. (I own 2 linux computers but do not have a cell phone). Having faith that no civilian computer is un-crackable, I will continue my search.
Man, that is a great point. It's only a matter of time before someone hacks this Cypher code and releases the unlocked upgrades for free. Zero is asking for it.
As a software developer / motorcycle rider, I'd love to give it a go - i just don't have the money to potentially brick one of these bike's computers and buy a new one. You bet they've implemented safeguards to prevent custom software running on it, so it'll take a few tries to hack these things. Not even just one or two.
I think the prices of the Energica in US are "dumped" to gain a market share. Here in Europe the prices are comparable to Zero (per kWh). I had a choice to go with Zero SR/S Premium or Energica EsseEsse9. I chose Zero because of: less complexity (no water or oil cooling), better battery warranty/life expectancy, better community support. Although it is without fast charging capability.
Nice! You're right that it depends on your location and specific needs. For quiet commuting, Zeros are still the best. For road trips and speed, Energicas win. Somewhere in between is the Livewire :D
yeah, I find it really frustrating that zero seems to be focusing so much on these crazy overpriced bikes for overpaid software engineers! :/ I wish they had spent the R&D on decreasing the cost of the old platforms that were already so great to ride. I think way more people would consider those bikes with just a tasteful restyle (like the FXE), a standard 6kW AC charger, cornering ABS/TC, and a cheaper price tag!
The reasoning is something like this. Customizing the production lines to make custom bikes is expensive, inefficient, slow. You need to train people, have multiple finish good P/N’s, it disrupt your inventories, value chain, etc. The final price of that motorcycle without some key parts is not going to be the previous cost minus the parts. As counterintuitive as it sounds, the extra complexity of building a custom order bike will erode a significant part of the savings. This is why more manufacturers are implementing software upgrades. They keep the hardware the same, which streamline the production and makes the overall product line cheaper. Then, the consumer always have the option to upgrade later, which was not an option before. You are not paying “twice” for the same thing, you are actually getting the hardware at a discount until you decide to use it. It is a business model very common in other industries and it will expand into other car/motorcycle manufactures as time goes by. Other variations of this is what Tesla is planning to do, which is charging a monthly fee for some of these features, kind of like a subscription model instead of upgrading via a one time fee.
Oh yeah, I totally get how it makes production simpler and cheaper, but that means Zero is still making a profit whether or not riders pay for upgrades. So why not just sell a fully-unlocked bike for that price? Want to make more money? Sell it for a few grand more. It still boils down to Zero charging more money than they ever have for bikes that aren't worth that much more than the previous models.
@@NewZeroland because the bike will be more expensive that what the customer is willing to pay. So instead of the company losing the sale, the company is betting the customer will eventually come back and pay for the upgrades.
The issue I have with this (and tesla) is the technology is already on the bike, so development and installation costs are already included in the price of the bike as they have built it, so its just to get money out of us for nothing. Just hope energica don't go this way because its a joke. I think I'm on my first and last zero with rubbish like this going on so much on the bike
90% of what I know about electric motorcycles comes from your channel - and one day I will own one so, please keep making these fantastic, informative vids!
And we thought the fuel giants were greedy * Let's see what the big bike players come out with very soon. Triumph in the UK look promising, and I'm sure Honda and Yamaha will soon throw their hat in the ring. 👏👏
Bwahaha right?? That blew my mind. I got 200 new subscribers in a day! They'll all be disappointed though because I won't have a new video out for weeks XD
It's a ridiculous concept. Imagine buying a house but the two extra bedrooms are locked off and you can't use them unless you pay the mortgage company an additional fee. You can buy a refrigerator with a freezer but unless you pay the extra money you can only use the refrigerator part. Everything's already there and they're just milking more money for absolute zero. You can't fix them, everything is chipped and locked off so you just can't swap parts. A horrible company.
Hahaha man those analogies are amazing 😂 It's so true. They need to get rid of this asap and just sell us fuly unlocked bikes. Keeping the cost a secret is misleading and it's going to piss off a lot of riders.
Well said. It’s a shame Zero hasn’t made any of the multitude of ideas we, and other Zero owners have begged them to do, but rather just rip people off for minor improvements that they then charge a huge premium for. If there isn’t new leadership at Zero, it won’t survive the competition that’s developing globally on e motorbikes
That's exactly it! If you look at what was actually added to the bikes since last year, it's only 1kW more charging power, and 3kWh more battery capacity... and they're charging us more money for both. What happened to improving bikes every year just because technology has moved forward? How expensive are these bikes going to get??
About that fast charging, you might be right for the US market. But EU market uses three phase charging stations. Here more that 99 percent of the stations near major roads at least 11kW 3-phase, so you can charge up to 9kW (9.9kW with the 10 percent upgrade) with ZERO. 90 percent of stations are at least 22kW capable so you can charge 12kW (13kW after upgrade) with ZERO.
The thing with biking is: and I am speaking from 45 years experience, in order to buy these hyper expensive vehicles, both bikes and other electric vehicles, you generally start with a small bike. Then, over the years as your skill improves, you get bigger and more expensive vehicles. One of the main problems these industries have is that young people are faced with prohibitively high prices and running costs so in time there will only be older people riding and then in another few years biking will become obsolete. Here in the UK, the infrastructure for electric vehicles just isn't in place and probably won't be for at least another decade or two. And here is my point, I live next to the Pennine Hills in Yorkshire. The nearest Tesla supercharger is 15 miles away from here. That's a 30 mile round trip to start with. Then there's the point that, as a professional driver, I could never afford a Tesla so if I was to go electric, I would have to get a much cheaper vehicle and as such, one with a lot lower range. I live on a hill side so can't charge from home. Bring the prices right down, install universal chargers everywhere and stop this ridiculous game of selling us half products and then ripping us off even more 'Pay Per Software Install Upgrades'. Zero Motorcycles, like a lot of modern companies deserve to go under, just for the facts they are blatantly ripping us off.
Yep, I hear you man. As the price of batteries went down, the price they were asking for their bikes went up. Zero changes the paint colour and adds on an extra $500 😂 It's insane. At least they listened to all of us complain about the Cypher Store and decided to axe it. Now they sell the bikes fully unlocked.
Great video! I feel the same. This just a giant load of nonsense. The notion that this makes their bikes more affordable is ridiculous. Zero have already paid for the hardware to go on the bike, so the argument that value is being added through optional updates is not fooling anyone. How about they make the base price the price which includes all the upgrades the owner has in fact already paid for already activated and then they make the corresponding discounts by allowing the owner to deactivate features? That's right! Turn off your heated grips functionality and they send you the money back. It's really no more ridiculous. If they really care about reaching a wider customer base, they need to stop this gimmick and concentrate on DC charging. Tesla can get away with it, but they figured out DC charging a long time ago. ;-) Small, incremental shifts indeed.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say you get all the upgrades without paying for them when you buy the bike, you just can't access them? You aren't paying for anything you can't use. Zero is selling you a full-featured bike at a discount price, and allowing you to choose which of the features is worth you paying extra for. This is hard to put into words, but basically Zero is selling you a bike with all the upgrades already included, for no extra cost upfront, and then allowing you to choose which of the upgrades you want to pay to unlock. And the unlocking process is as easy as pressing some buttons on your phone, no need to take it in to a dealership or anything. Honestly, it's actually kind of genius, though their messaging could use some work.
Holy crap that reverse Cypher Store downgrade idea is GENIUS hahaha. This whole thing makes me wonder how much of a loss Zero is taking selling their bikes at these prices. What happens if no one pays for the upgrades? Have Zero taken that into account already? If so, they could sell fully-loaded bikes for less money, and people would be way happier. We expect progress every year, and as battery tech gets cheaper, why charge us more for it? You're right.. Zero needs DC charging. I just hope they don't offer it as a $2k unlockable feature!
@@falcor86 I completely get how it all works. I'm just pointing out how mad it is. As you rightly say, you already have all the upgrades, but you can't access them. Zero has already made the outlay for the hardware. There is literally no financial loss to them in hardware terms by enabling these features by default, but you know what it would do? Make the overall bike a more appealing proposition to a larger number of bikers. I'm only speaking personally, but this move has also tarnished a company I've supported for years. They should be thinking about promoting wider adoption of electric motorcycles in their own long-term interests, rather than squeezing money out of owners for hardware they've already paid for.
@@falcor86 the problem here is weight. You're carrying around a bigger battery and extra chargers that you can't use. With the detuned SR, you're carrying around this weight with 40hp less.
love it. so right. Have been riding Zeros for 11 years now and had breakfast with the then CEO at the Palo Alto Starbucks on a Sunday morning! But since the marketing guys have taken over .... Wondering what to buy next.
Oh maaaan! Zero had such a cooler vibe back then. Back when you needed help and you would talk to a person from Zero, not just a service tech at a dealership. I still love my SR, but my next bike will be an Energica. I can't say enough good things about them 😁👍
Love the content, staying honest about the state of the ev motorcycle market is the best thing you can do. Up to the companies whether or not they listen. Love my zero, but I can’t see myself buying another one/upgrading with the direction they’re headed. Not sure what market research they did or what niche they’re trying to fill :/
Yeah man, exactly. Charging-wise I think their bikes work really well in Europe, where high powered AC stations are easier to find. The locked up battery and power is insulting though.
You have compare it to the previous 14.4 SR/F. You get this. You want more, pay for it. You want reverse, pay for it. Don't want/need? Don't pay for it. But maybe later you want it, no problem, buy it on your own bike instead of buying a better version.
@@dennisnl7125 but why pay for it to be built into a bike and not be able to use it unless you pay more. It comes off as a cash grab. Especially when the competition has those features as standard for less, better range, DC charging etc. Just sayin....
@@NewZeroland I mean what’s most confusing to me is how exactly were these decisions made from a business perspective. I’m not sure if streamlining their manufacturing to only producing premium models of their offering is really worth all of the trade offs they’re facing. Yes we as consumers gain post purchase flexibility (the dealership structure isn’t relatively robust compared to traditional companies), but they’re essentially taking a hit on overall overhead and betting on their customers having excess income to continually purchase software locked features down the road. There is typically more profit associated with more expensive products, so a lack of sales growth is the only reason I could see them headed in this direction. They’re just going to alienate a good amount of their current customers I feel, because they’re ultimately offering a less compelling product (they’re not operating in a vacuum, I tell people to look into energica when they ask about my bike at this point).
Same thing Tesla are trying to do, move the market to a place where when you buy a second hand vehicle you have to rebuy the premium features instead of getting them as the previous owner had spec'd
I'm in agreement with you, Zero should be focusing about lowering the price of their battery, but instead they are increasing their bike price by almost 10% every single year
Absolutely! The bikes are getting slightly better every year (charging went up by 1kW, and battery capacity by 3kWh) but paying $27k for that is insane.
Still I prefer the Zero. There is also no best car, but a lot of different cars with their own +/- The price is to high if no1 buys it. Zero is still here.
Test rode a SRF this summer where i was made aware of this scam. When i was suprised it only had 140 km of range, the dealer explained i could unlock it for more $$$. Sale lost. Well that, and the bike breaking down sealed the deal for me.
@@NewZeroland the dash lit up with "Battery Isolation Fault" so I pulled over and called the dealership. They told me to ride it back, but when I tried to restart it was a no-go. Fun bike, while it lasted but there is so much more fun to be had for far less $
@@brucerossonthetube oh boy, yep isolation faults are Zero's jam. If it rains you'll get error code lights all the time. Crazy that it wouldn't let you ride though.
Great video. Agree with your points from the consumer perspective. On the other side of the fence, I believe standardized hardware configuration with unlock-able features is a great way to reduce manufacturing costs. It makes a lot of sense for selling the bike at a more competitive price. Problem is that I have no other apples to compare mine to and I think Zero banks on that. Energica is an orange and I don’t see really any other manufacturer making a similar spec’d bike to the SR. Thus the high price tag they can put on these machines without worrying about losing market share.. for now. -2020 SR/F owner and loving every minute of it (especially with the ICE backup bike for distance)
Thanks man! Yeah your SR/F is still better than the new SR, and there's no reason to upgrade to the faster charging unless you live in Europe. I'm still sad that they killed off the old SR, because now the entry level bike is nearly $18k, and below that is a Zero S with half the battery size. If Zero wanted to give us a million options to choose from, they should have kept the smaller SR. Manufacturing wise it's easier, for sure, but wasteful unless people pay for the upgrades. I really hope they kill this and just sell unlocked bikes at whatever they cost.
I agree with you Sam, However for the 6kW vs 7kW charging power, here in north America we are on 240V-30A and our standard charge stations are 7.2kW for the one on 240v and 6.2kW on the 208V. So to enjoy the 7kW in fact we can, it depend on which country you live in.
You are right. With the new ones. I drive a SR/S 2022 Version, 12kW Charger. But in Europe it's not a problem. Typ2 Charger are able to do this. On average I wait at the charging station for 30 minutes. But, Yes, if I have to decide now, there is only the noise of the energica, that's prevents me from switching. . .
Who bets used upgraded bikes get the upgrades reset so they have to pay again. At least the Performance boost is a dealer install which I guess means they need to install another component, since its adding Motorcycle Stability Control as well (probably all they're adding).
Thankfully Zero has confirmed that the upgrades stay with the bike, but we know how buggy Zero's firmware is. It's hard to trust software-locked upgrades when we can't trust the bikes already.
This is where your neighbourhood hacker comes in handy. It's like my ( friend's ) computer has thousands of dollars in programs, but ( he ) got them for free. :P :P
Hahahaha oh yeah I have a friend like that too >___> haha this is definitely asking for someone to hack the Cypher code and release all the upgrades for free.
Eying a used 2020SRF premium. I will use the Cyhper store for sure. Going from 6kW to 7kW is a great feature if you are waiting beside your bike. Don't care it cost something.
Hmmm, I've had my eye on Zero, just waiting for the right bike. Guess I'm gonna start looking at other bikes. Greed shows it's face, good for the competition.
zero already sold the bike with the hardware on it. this isnt an upgrade this is a money grab. i can understand zero selling the hardware to upgrade the bike...like a better charger and heated grips etc.
Didn’t you know? Zero is sponsored by Raid Shadow legends. It has all sorts of in app purchases and you can have your favorite characters yell at you on the dash if you go too fast or aren’t riding the most economically depending on what mode your in and how much you spend.
HAHA it all makes sense now. How cool would it be if you could earn these upgrades while you ride? Like do 400 miles in a day and you get an achievement that adds more range to your bike so you can beat the 500 mile achievement?? I would buy that bike.
Damn! You just said the magic words. You would buy that bike… somewhere in Ca Zero marketing heard you and thought, “no way in hell will we make that. Cool idea though, Dan over in the billing department would love that. I don’t like Dan.”
Having all the features built into a vehicle but not accessible to the owner sounds like a huge waste of resources and should be prohibited by goverments globally. The only thing worse than DLCs for your car/bike are monthly subscriptions for keeping features unlocked. However, i'm afraid that it will become the norm in the future.
The unlockable mode of working only makes sense for software or similar stuff for which the cost of creating one additional copy is zero. It would make sense for electronic traction control, for example. Otherwise you are paying for stuff that you're not going to use, as the cost of manufacture is always necessarily paid for by the customer.
Ever since I heard of Zero I wanted a SR/S Electric Supersports bike? Going 200km/h peak, and reach a 100 in barely over 2 seconds? Crazy! But hearing all this, Zero has turned from "Shut up and Take my Money" to "I don't want a bitten Apple" Change this Zero, otherwise you lost one potential future costumer, me. I honestly don't care what manufacturer is printed on the side of my vehicle as long as I love riding it, so yeah, change it!
Also, are J plugs dying in the US? I just did a ride from LA to Vegas back in early October, and I needed to use the one J plug in Primm to make it. Now that charger is out of order, and there’s no way to make that leg of the journey. But there are plenty of CCS/Superchargers out there, and more coming.
There are always RV parks. I carry a Tesla UMC cable for NEMA 14-50 outlets as well as a Tesla Tap to allow Tesla Destination chargers. FWIW, J plugs in my area (Michigan) are getting more and more prevalent including 10 KW public JuiceBoxes.
Yeah that's the thing man.. there are lots of AC stations, but they might not all be J1772. Nema plugs at campsites are an option, as are Tesla destination chargers, but they'll require adapters to use.
I didn't know they & Tesla were doing this. Pretty messed up & awkward. I thought about built-in DLC, before you said it, but I also thought about hacking...not only people hacking to fully unlock their bikes, but what really worries me, are malicious hackers, tampering with modern over-computerized vehicles, to get people extorted, injured, or executed. This is why I don't want any vehicle to have any wireless communication like this, at all, let alone with a sketchy parent company, or the Internet. If someone wants to hack my bikes, they have to take it apart, find a plug, do whatever hack, then put it back together, ALL without me knowing. And I'm planning independent alarm & surveillance systems, imitating Tesla Sentry Mode, but with audio, and encrypted. I'm on the fence about software locking content. If they really couldn't sell all that hardware for less, then it seems like a good idea. But I'm more disturbed by a company having any wireless influence on my property. What else are in those unlocking updates? I'm loyal to bikes, but if I ever buy a Tesla, the first thing I'm doing, is disconnecting it from the company. I don't care if the touchscreen becomes useless, and I need to swap in aftermarket motor-controllers. Tesla, or anyone, can track & brick my car at any time. I will not tolerate that possibility.
Yeah man.. it's an uncertain future we're headed into. This kinda stuff makes you question how much of your vehicle you actually own. It's like part of it still belongs to the bank of Zero 😂 I bought an Energica because they don't have any of this ridiculousness. It's just a bike that does everything you want it to, without misleading specs. Hopefully Zero realizes this pay as you go unlocking thing isn't what people want.
US only: If the Build Back Better bill passes, there could be up to $7500 rebate for electric motorcycles up to $25k. That could be a reason why Zero is artificially lowering the price of their fully loaded SR/F and SR/S models to slightly below $25k. That way you can get the $7500 rebate, and then upgrade it a little at a time as you see fit. If and only if this rebate passes, I'll probably be upgrading my 2018 SR (with Charge Tank) to a new SR/F Premium (with Power Tank), and then add all the software upgrades later.
That's a great point. I wonder if it did influence Zero to raise their prices. Also, you're making the right call starting with the Premium model. Upgrading the Standard bike to become a Premium ends up costing $300 more for some reason. Maybe Zero has some incentive to start with Premium.
I would prefer energica...the main reason is the power factor which does not fade when the battery gets low. Correct me if I'm wrong but zero starts losing power when the battery goes under 40%. And basically becomes a golf cart when it's under 20%.. that's terrible..if I have less than 2 miles to get to my destination with 20%battery (knowing that's more than enough range)...let me control my own power!! Not the bike
@@rogerrabbit7469 in Italy we have a running joke over Italian bikes, especially about Ducati, that they drop parts as they go along. I once personally witnessed a Ducati owner running behind a rearview mirror
If willing to spend 25K get the Zero unlocked to 17KW.... add fast charger for 13KW per hour.... get Tesla charging adapter.... have motorcycle with 100-150 miles of range and Tesla charging in just over an hour. I think a cheaper combo I'm gonna go with is an Aerial Rider Kepler (1800 bucks) for under 30 mile commutes and a Yamaha MT-03 (4600 bucks) for longer commutes.
Yeah like I said, there are better options for less money. Energicas get more range, charge faster, and cost less. Zero needs to make something better, and if it's not better, it has to be cheaper.
TBH in the zero world My Zero S 2020 model with a charge tank is the best model :¬), 156ish mile and you can type two charge on the go if needed for long trips, that said I use it for going to and from work and charge it once a week for about £2 a week.
100% agree! Remember I bought the SR/S premium (first in San Diego). Then when the charger tank was finally available I had to pay for the upgrade. I found myself dumping dollar after dollar trying to get what I was somewhat promised. Finally eating about 15K and jumping to Energica. Lesson learned. I honestly want competition between the big 3 (Zero, Energica and LiveWire) but damn Zero it is a bad move that buys time!
Yeah man! It makes no sense. Zero added 1kW of charging power and 3kWh of battery capacity.. both of which you have to pay extra for. This isn't a "huge leap" in any way.
The big issue for me is that there is still just three real competitors in the market. We need more. There is already over a hundred carbrands out there with electric cars. Wake up, motorcycle industry (at least in Europe), euro 7 is coming....
Couldn't agree more. The thing that has always annoyed me about Zero is that they purposely try to disguise vehicle figures from you, even when you dig on their official website. I also find Tesla to be insanely poor at providing vehicle specs, second only to Zero... In Norway (and Sweden as far as I'm aware), a majority of public AC chargers are 7.4kW, with many being either 11kW or 22kW, so it wouldn't be too hard here to take advantage of those different charging speeds. Atm I don't have a bike, but I've been looking to get an Energica for a while. Unfortunately there are no dealers up here, and I haven't been able to find anyone who imports them either. Like many other comments here, I'm looking forward to mainstream manufacturers to throw their hat in the pool, personally I'm banking on BMW to get it right first.
Yeah, that's a really great point! I talk about that in my next video a bit. Zero really makes configuring a bike as confusing and misleading as possible. It's also crazy that an American-made bike makes more sense in Europe than it does in America 😂 We'll see what BMW does. I hope they make SOMETHING. Even a citybike would be nice. The scooter is awesome, but crazy heavy.
In europe🇪🇺 we the most common charger is a type 2 charger instead of type 1 chargers in the 🇺🇸 . Maybe zeromotors is focussong more and more on europe. Great video by the way 🤟
Wow! That really sucks! Glad you mentioned the video game comparison. I'm shocked..., I know I'm not near getting a Zero yet, but was going to. I just got a SuperCub in the meantime, but now I may just have to forget about Zeros all together now. 😪
@@NewZeroland Thanks. I just wanted something easy as a beginning rider. If I had 20K I would have gotten a Zero, used Zeros in Hawaii are a rarity, the dealer just came to the Island 2 years ago...🤗
Well, that changes my mind on getting one. There are pre-owned ones from before the subscriptions but they're now out of warranty. I'm not taking my chances on that regardless of how cheaply priced they are.
Yeah Zeros out of warranty are risky because there is very little support. My motor encoder died and Zero wouldn't even sell me parts. Energica is the way to go 😎
so...what is the outcome of a business model that has the exact same material costs for a higher and a lower-cost bike and only a small number of customers opt-in for the higher-cost bike?
It's almost like Zero doesn't care! I've just had a charge point installed in my home but on the UK gov website, Zero STILL isn't listed for our discount grant despite being hassled by us for 4 years! They told me last year they're "onto it".. Yeah right. My next bike is looking more and more like being an Energica... But.... CHAIN DRIVE, FRIKKIN' CHAIN DRIVE! Arrrrrgh!
Yeaaaah man.... a lot of people prefer belt (I do too). In that case, have you ridden a Livewire? Now that prices have dropped, that seems to be the winner. It has all the high-end build quality and DC charging of Energicas, but the sound of a Zero.
I think a very important part has been forgotten here. 5 years warranty on a Zero batterypack. By unlocking the extra capacity, Zero is basically risking that it could not make that 5 years and have to replace the Battery within the warranty periode. What is Energica it's warranty periode of their bike and what is their pricing compared to the Zero
Zero's wording on the battery warranty is very strange. They only warranty the "outer casing" of the battery for 2 years. So what, if it leaks after 3 years, and the battery gets water damage are they going to deny my claim? Because it was the outer casing, which is no longer under warranty, that leaked.
I think Energicas have 3 year warranties, as do LiveWires. I don't know how it works with that unlockable part of the Zero battery... but I'd hope that those cells aren't just sitting there. Otherwise you have a dead part of your battery haha.
@@NewZeroland Energica: The duration of the battery limited warranty is 3 years (36 months) or 50,000 km (31,000 mi). This is probably due to fast charge port.
I have personally had my battery replaced under warranty and they even said it was extended from the moment the new one was put in they gave me another 5 years from that point. What I would be worried about with this is that they may just decide to unlock the other part of the battery if it degrades to 80% and just call it a "replacement of capacity". Having dealt with my charger going out (within the warranty period but the shop not working on it until a few days after the warranty expired) and having to pay for everything out of pocket for their defective vendor hardware that allows water to get in and short out the electronics I wouldn't put that past them.
As I understand it, Zero’s battery warranty is for “battery” component parts only, ie. it covers only the farisis pouch cells, for manufacturing defects, failure and early degradation, but only if the battery has been charged and maintained in accordance with Zero’s/Farisis recommendations. Other battery hardware including casing, cabling or connectors are not included in the battery warranty. Please update me if this is now not their policy.
Check out their customer service issues. I have read some serious horror stories on here about that. For $20k plus for a friggin motorcycle there should not be any issues at all.
Yeah I'm on the list of riders who encountered "Zero" customer service. My motor died and I couldn't buy a new one from them. They don't sell motors and refuse to ship stuff to you because they don't want people working on their own bikes. I won't be buying another Zero, that's for sure.
I’m retired now but I trained new personnel off and on for years. The one thing I pushed was customer service. It may be the one and only time they have contact with you but they’ll remember a good or bad experience for years.
@@Dusty11408 well said. Buying the company is more important than buying the product. When my bike broke, Zero ghosted me, so I made sure everybody knew this.
I agree About to get my sr/f premium next week , In the French alps. And this new idea to treat us like ravian EV carmaker might heart the company. Cheers from France us riders 👍
@@NewZeroland you bet I know I will love it , I fell in love with it and immediately sold my BMW k 1600 GT 1600 GT which was really extremely well equipped, but unreliable after 40000 miles. But fully loaded for 34000 dollars in France (20 % VAT 😳 And we never went On strike for such high taxes 🤔) You take care
@@NewZeroland Mine is equipped with a 2 time 3kw (a total of 6kw ). I will not buy the extra battery pack. which cost in France nearly 3800 dollars. But I will buy the 10% extra charge which cost here 220 dollars on the cypher app. Fortunately most supermarkets are free of charge in my little town same at KFC , Burger King and places like that.
I really respect that you do not seem swayed by the modern tribalism that is brand loyalty. It is important to see that this type of corporate behavior is becoming common with modern consumer products in general. Whether this is caused by companies being run by a bunch of greedy people or if it is the result of certain changes happening within society is up for debate in my opinion. Without diving into some unwanted treatise on my personal geopolitical views, I do have some hope that some of these exploitative behaviors might be curbed with right to repair laws. Admittedly, there are valid intellectual, technical and legal challenges that undermine the right to repair movement. Once Upon a Time, one of the main entry barriers to riding a motorcycle at least in the United States was a need for general mechanical skill and knowledge. This was also once true if you wanted to drive a horseless carriage. As time goes on, the consumer has generally started to view automobiles like home appliances. Many consumers just want to pay for a convenient product and cost becomes secondary to perceived value. I think zero's marketing and strategy is toward that type of consumer. They are obviously not very interested in the traditional motorcycle gearhead / tinker/eccentric or critical thinker. It all really makes sense when you consider the background of their current CEO, coupled with the easily deduced fact that Zero is essentially not a profitable company, surviving on capital from a major investor. My depressing prediction is that Zero will eventually be sold off to a larger company and go the way of Brammo. I think investors will try to hang on to the reins until the company's perceived value climbs to a certain level - if global supply issues and inflation don't bankrupt them first. And hey, if you don't agree just remember that this comment was made possible by the opinions of a random stranger on the internet :-)
Thanks for your input! Yeah I'm totally fine with 0-60mph times being recorded on a dyno. They aren't what you'll ever see in the real world, but they help sell electric motorcycles and that's what I want to see more of. The butt dyno is all that really matters. City range, however, riding at 10mph the whole time, is not a helpful spec to promote. I really hope Zero (and others) change that marketing tactic.
@@NewZeroland I did not intentionally ghost edit my last comment - just accidentally pressed the send button before I was finished. I even added a conspiracy theory element to get you more views LOL. I seriously do appreciate your channel though.
Totally agreed with everything in the video. When the time comes, I'm going to buy Energica. No questions asked. Zero is burying itself with this move.
@@NewZeroland I hope so too, if they did not made up their minds already. When you showed in a video the difference between Energica and Zero customer service, I was blown away. The fact that Energica gave you detailed steps how to change stuff on your motorcycle, that made all the difference. Still waiting for a cheaper motorcycle from both manufacturers, but for now, Energica is winning me over.
Awesome information! Thank you for sharing this! Of course, I’ve been looking into powertrains, the H-D revelation has a rad to cool the power train? The Zero doesn’t seem to need to be cooled down. They have also made a deal with Polaris to use their powertrains, so that might be their focus now? Anyway, thanks again!
Yep, for sure. Livewires and Energicas have liquid cooled motors because they're higher performance. Zero's air-cooling is great if you don't plan on riding aggressively.
I understand the points you make about having a bike with all the abilities but having to upgrade but I see it a different way. My upfront cost is less and still have the option to have the full bike later. I can see if I am happy with it as is or still have an option to build it out without $130 an hour in labor cost. The modular aspect is IMHO a nice one to have but with an electric bike that extra weight causes less range. I have been considering one of three zeros a 2021 SR, 2022 SR/F, or 2022 SR. Right now I am leaning towards the SR because I could upgrade it to the SR/F level over time and if I was to purchase all of the cypher upgrades I have the total investment at $24,362. Add in heated grips that have to be installed by the dealer I'm still under 25k (figuring under 3 hr of work at $130 an hour). This puts it on par with an SR/F with all upgrades except for the charge time but would cost you $25,882. The only difference is charge time but most often I would be charging at home with a 110v until I can figure out how to add a 220 to my garage or shed. So with all that said the only difference I can figure you end up with on a 220v charger is 2.5 hours vs. 4.1 hours. For me, I can't justify saving 2 hours of charging when 99% of the time I'll be asleep during it. With all that said the 2021 SR would be the least expensive option and out of the box it has a greater range, but it is not modular. It has limitations to what can be modified. If I added a charge tank to help with charge time 1) there is a long wait time now 2) the cost of the tank and installation comes close to 17.5k getting close to the cost of the base cost of the 22 SR that can be upgraded further over time. Leaning hard towards the 2022 SR but still thinking about the 2021 SR. Any help in my considerations is appreciated. also my numbers include my fright taxes and fees on the base price.
If you REALLY want a Zero, instead of the other electric motorcycles available right now like Livewires and Energicas, then yeah your mindset makes sense. In my opinion, even $17k is too close to a used Energica to ignore all the range and charging limitations Zeros have.
@@NewZeroland the issue with an engerica for me is the closest dealer is 7 hours away. I guess I haven't really considered the live wire but it's less miles than the zero so why would that be a better bike? I'm very new to electric bike or even vehicles. Only had electric bicycles. Looked up DC chargers in my area there's 2 with none being built in in Iowa USa not an electric Forward place. there are a lot of level two. I've been watching your videos they are great ty.
It looks like DC is nice but for limited access of dc fast chargers the live wire would tak 10 hours on a level 2. Zero may just make more sense for me because it charges much faster on level 2 which is more avilibal in my area. I had no idea there was this difference thought it was more standard. Looks like we have a phone charging cable battle brewing. Yeah more multiple cords lying around but bigger 😂🤦♂️
@@velovloger2553 it gets worse the deeper you go. With AC charging you need to carry tons of adapters with you because none of the stations are the same. Lots of the high power AC charging is at campsites / RV parks. As more DC stations are installed, it won't make sense to ride something with only AC.
@@NewZeroland I think for me after researching here and knowing the US we are still 4-5 years out for a solid DC infrastructure especially where the majority of my riding happens. By that time there will be more advances in the tech and I’ll be ready to upgrade from my starter bike, and I’ll finally get to own an Italian bike which is a dream of mine since I was a kid, but hopefully a throwback cruiser style. With that said your content is great. I know Europes move to electric is far ahead of the US. Take ebike sales here in the US they are just now starting to gain like maybe 20-30% of all sales. In Europe it’s been above 60% of all sales for some time now.
The real question is: what does it really cost to make the bike? It's got to be somewhere between $17K and $21K delivered. Zero is betting on some people paying for more features, and some people wanting to pay less and putting up with fewer features. So IMO they should just offer the full package at that in-between price. It's probably much easier for them to make one model that has everything than have different models and different stock. Tesla's already experimented with this, and we know the results. It's just not worth their while making the smaller batteries for the few people who want the bargain basement price. For a while you could pay less to have a battery that you could unlock later, but that went out the window pretty quick because it was unpopular and made Tesla look bad. Zero needs to learn that lesson. Some people are always going to want stuff cheaper. Most of us know you get what you pay for. So I think most of us would be prepared to pay $19,900 (say) for a full package Zero, rather than $21K to upgrade just to get the features you've already got in your bike.
Yep, I agree with you 100%. Just give us a fully-loaded bike for the price of a base Premium model. Surely that would sell more bikes and be more profitable for Zero in the long run. What if nobody pays for upgrades? Surely Zero isn't losing money on this.
Knowing the hardware they put into these bikes and the vendors they go through for their parts plus the assembly process I'd put their cost to make it delivered at about $9-12k realistically. Now I'm sure a lot of that profit goes back to marketing/distribution and should in theory go into R&D (it's clearly not) but trust me they don't operate on a razor thin margin, they've sort of stayed in business (multiple buyouts) all this time for a reason.
I was actually considering buying a Zero, but this just made totally sure I am not gonna do it, thanks for saving me a lot of money, I think Ill just get myself a nice Honda instead.
The worst thing about software locking features is that it guarantees that the owner will be prohibited from modifying and possibly repairing their own bikes. It means that modding your bike to make more power is going to be looked on as theft instead of applied ingenuity. Why people deal with companies that are hostile towards people who love their products is beyond me. Modders, hackers, tuners, hot-rodders, whatever name they go by, these guys love their products way more than the average person - they want to keep using them even though something else would be more suitable - but all the companies see is the downsides, liabilities and loss of control, when the human thing to do is to embrace their efforts and assist the community to work safely and collaboratively and to share improvements to all customers who want them. It's easy to see how community bug fixes to things like regen brakes or throttle response could conflict with app based upgrades even though they have a strong impact on safety. The manufacturer would no doubt claim that messing with your brakes or throttle with random shit downloaded off the internet is insane, while the people who patch obvious bugs in these systems themselves would say it's insane to ride a bike with known bugs in the braking and throttle systems. Just as an example of how communities and corporations butt heads and are buttheads.
Sooooo well said, Steve! The early Zero days were so exciting for thus reason. People were adding aftermarket chargers, tuning the controller for more power, and absolutely diagnosing problems themselves. All of that is over now, and it makes me sad.
The cost comparisons to Energica really sent this one home. Just... oof. Big oof. I think the engineers at zero are killing it, their batteries aside from being the wrong voltage, are really damn good. But the sales/marketing and corporate "mission" are shackling their work to poor standards of customer relations... and I can't help but be sad about it.
Yeppppp! Exactly man. The bikes are still amazing.. I just wish they'd sell them fully loaded, ready to rumble. They need to be up front about the price and what the bikes can do. I'm afraid of the backlash the whole electric motorcycle movement will get from disappointed road trippers.
I get what you're saying, but from an engineering and economy of scale standpoint, it's easier to have fewer options and SKUs. Personally, for a touring bike I would max out and SR/S on charging and get the Dual J kit. The US still has way more Level 2 stations than DCFCs and more of those are creeping up towards 10 KW like the EnelX JuiceBoxes. So bikes like the LiveWire with DCFC only or Level 1 can't use the Level 2s effectively...just see Long Way Up. I wouldn't write Zero off just yet. Let's see how it plays out.
I think it doesn't have to do with economy of scale but rather they're betting that with time customer will unlock most options. I don't think that putting heated handle, additional chargers or a bigger battery as standard make them do some economy.
I’m not so sure about Level 2s in the US. All I’ve ever seen are 6kw stations split between two plugs (with luck you get the station to yourself). Many are in disrepair, and very few new ones are being added. Level 3s are popping up everywhere.
Now we're talking about a $28k Zero with only a 17.3kWh pack. I know there are technically more AC stations in the US, but DC is growing fast. Electrify America, ChargePoint, Ford, eventually Tesla being open to all CCS vehicles... that's a huge deal. If Zero doesn't offer a bike with CCS soon, they'll be stuck in the past, charging people way more money for it. I'm only hard on them because I care XD
@@NewZeroland Still, don't know how, but Energica's come from Italy in Europe, but here they are much more expensive compared to America: ENERGICA ESSEESSE9 13kWh €19830 ENERGICA ESSEESSE9 21kWh €25880 ENERGICA EVA RIBELLE 21kWh €28360 ENERGICA EGO 13kWh €23800 ENERGICA EGO 21kWh €30140 ENERGICA EGO CORSA KIT CLIENTI €44000 Zero 2022 SR, start €19200 Zero SR/F, start €23400 Zero SR/F premium, powertank €27000 Zero SR/F all Cypher €29300 Zero SR/S, start €21900 Zero SR/S premium, powertank €27750 Zero SR/S all Cypher €30050 We must be very rich in Europe.... 😳😔 €1 ~ $1.13
It feels a whole lot like back in the day when you'd buy games for full price on physical media and they'd include the DLC ON THE DISK. I paid 60 bucks I have the game and the content in my house, cant use it without dropping an extra 12.99. Like WTF Capc-- I mean Zero!? In fairness it's a cost cutting measure, they make one devices and they wont have to split up the building process for various makes, but the whole thing smacks of a trend I'm hating where companies remove choice for their own sake and force and inferior experience. Like I'm looking at new phones and several newer models step backwards from the previous year to lower resolution screens and weaker processors like no one's going to notice or like they think no one can offer a better value. Thankfully I can still get last year's model, but it's still very concerning.
Dude, exactly. "Forcing an inferior experience" is an amazing way to put it. When you take a step back and look at the "huge leaps" Zero has made since last year's models... 1kW more charging power and 3kWh more battery capacity.. that's it. And you have to pay more for everything haha.
This put me off Zero forever. Cant wait to Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki starts electrifying and completly wipe Zero off the map. Zero just cant seem to get their act together.
you will be waiting a long time. Zero aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
Zero still rules the commuter game with their S and FXE models, but for higher-end long range bikes, they keep falling short of what Energicas could do years ago. Even the Livewire is $5k cheaper, which seems crazy to me!
Yeah I agree but neither the legacy manufacturers...
Energica, evoque or make your own work Chinese parts...
@@NewZeroland I just traded my 3 yr old FXS and got the FXE. This platform is Zero's crown jewel IMHO. Urban missile than can cope with light offroad with ease, I adore them. Prob the most fun bikes I've ever ridden and there's been many over the years.
@@NewZeroland Here in italy, a 2022 SR/S Premium with all upgrades would cost 29715 Euros, while an Energica Eva Ribelle with the same optionals would be 33047. The livewire starts at 34200
The marketing dept. took over the company and pushed R&D to the basement.
Hahaha best summary of Zero ever.
That's how commodore fell.
It's starting to happen way too often now.
Future Motion's Onewheel, same story. Greedy boiz painting a model as saving the earth while having fun, when its all for their pockets
@@AuRowe It doesn't take much to go from legitimate concern to marketing gimmick.
I've just started looking at Zero to replace my old vstrom, thank you so much for laying this out in black and white, I really dodged a bullet
No problem! If you want something similar to a V-Strom, check out the Energica Experia. It's finally an electric touring bike with fast charging.
Exactly! Glad someone gets the frustrating part of all this 👍
😂 thanks bro! I feel like the negatives outweigh the positives with this one.
I'm glad I watched this
I think you just nailed it: forcing you to carry all this extra weight just to push you to pay for it? That's nonsense...
Thanks! Seems insane and also wasteful.
I've been riding ICE bikes for over 20 years, and that technology is such that almost any modification is possible by almost any rider, without any interaction with the manufacturer. The Zero and any other bike is controlled and in fact only usable because of a computer. It is the basic nature of the type of motor used. Science, and no complaining is even defensible. What I expect to happen is that some intrepid rider will crack the software on the bike, and open the floodgates...owners will be able to modify their rides and take charge of their charge. I have a 2014 SR bought 2nd or 3rd-hand, with very low miles on it. The closest dealer to me is 200 miles away. Not gonna happen. I will do what I must, without trailering my ride and leaving it there for an indefinite period of time, for an indifferent parts-changer to suck the life out of my wallet. At 74 years of age I am not going to spend big bux on a new bike and then have to get a smart phone just to keep the bike going. (I own 2 linux computers but do not have a cell phone). Having faith that no civilian computer is un-crackable, I will continue my search.
Man, that is a great point. It's only a matter of time before someone hacks this Cypher code and releases the unlocked upgrades for free. Zero is asking for it.
As a software developer / motorcycle rider, I'd love to give it a go - i just don't have the money to potentially brick one of these bike's computers and buy a new one. You bet they've implemented safeguards to prevent custom software running on it, so it'll take a few tries to hack these things. Not even just one or two.
05:02 I burst into laughter at the same time....brilliant.
“Yeah hold on bro I need to charge my bike/car. I’ll be there in a few hours”
Yeah Zero needs to speed that up asap
I think the prices of the Energica in US are "dumped" to gain a market share. Here in Europe the prices are comparable to Zero (per kWh). I had a choice to go with Zero SR/S Premium or Energica EsseEsse9. I chose Zero because of: less complexity (no water or oil cooling), better battery warranty/life expectancy, better community support. Although it is without fast charging capability.
Nice! You're right that it depends on your location and specific needs. For quiet commuting, Zeros are still the best. For road trips and speed, Energicas win. Somewhere in between is the Livewire :D
We did it bois. We have DLCs for bikes..
😂
yeah, I find it really frustrating that zero seems to be focusing so much on these crazy overpriced bikes for overpaid software engineers! :/ I wish they had spent the R&D on decreasing the cost of the old platforms that were already so great to ride. I think way more people would consider those bikes with just a tasteful restyle (like the FXE), a standard 6kW AC charger, cornering ABS/TC, and a cheaper price tag!
Yep, well said. That's exactly what we need. Drop the charging time to 1 hour or less (ideally less) and bring the prices down instead of up.
Software engineers are never overpaid ;) Marketing and finance on the other hand...
Totally agree, that's ridiculous
Zero has jumped the shark lol
The reasoning is something like this. Customizing the production lines to make custom bikes is expensive, inefficient, slow. You need to train people, have multiple finish good P/N’s, it disrupt your inventories, value chain, etc. The final price of that motorcycle without some key parts is not going to be the previous cost minus the parts. As counterintuitive as it sounds, the extra complexity of building a custom order bike will erode a significant part of the savings. This is why more manufacturers are implementing software upgrades. They keep the hardware the same, which streamline the production and makes the overall product line cheaper. Then, the consumer always have the option to upgrade later, which was not an option before. You are not paying “twice” for the same thing, you are actually getting the hardware at a discount until you decide to use it. It is a business model very common in other industries and it will expand into other car/motorcycle manufactures as time goes by. Other variations of this is what Tesla is planning to do, which is charging a monthly fee for some of these features, kind of like a subscription model instead of upgrading via a one time fee.
Oh yeah, I totally get how it makes production simpler and cheaper, but that means Zero is still making a profit whether or not riders pay for upgrades. So why not just sell a fully-unlocked bike for that price? Want to make more money? Sell it for a few grand more. It still boils down to Zero charging more money than they ever have for bikes that aren't worth that much more than the previous models.
@@NewZeroland because the bike will be more expensive that what the customer is willing to pay. So instead of the company losing the sale, the company is betting the customer will eventually come back and pay for the upgrades.
The issue I have with this (and tesla) is the technology is already on the bike, so development and installation costs are already included in the price of the bike as they have built it, so its just to get money out of us for nothing. Just hope energica don't go this way because its a joke. I think I'm on my first and last zero with rubbish like this going on so much on the bike
Yeah man, I'm with ya. Zero is outta their minds. I really wonder if they'll make a profit on these bikes if no one pays for the upgrades.
Energica thanks you for this free commercial
:-D
😂😂😂
90% of what I know about electric motorcycles comes from your channel - and one day I will own one so, please keep making these fantastic, informative vids!
Haha thanks! Glad to help 😁 Electric motorcycles are all pretty awesome, but there are some really sweet options these days.
And we thought the fuel giants were greedy *
Let's see what the big bike players come out with very soon. Triumph in the UK look promising, and I'm sure Honda and Yamaha will soon throw their hat in the ring. 👏👏
Man here's hoping! Zero needs more competition to realize how far behind they are.
Not Yamaha. They have joined "Team Japan", which is promising to keep ice alive by bringing you synthetic fuels.
@@PeterHendricks59 Good. More options means just that.
Wow! This video blew up since it was linked by Louis Rossmann. Don't forget us little people now that your star is taking off!
Bwahaha right?? That blew my mind. I got 200 new subscribers in a day! They'll all be disappointed though because I won't have a new video out for weeks XD
This is why the modding community is so important.
Hell yeah! Hopefully the new code doesn't prevend people from customizing these bikes!
It's a ridiculous concept. Imagine buying a house but the two extra bedrooms are locked off and you can't use them unless you pay the mortgage company an additional fee. You can buy a refrigerator with a freezer but unless you pay the extra money you can only use the refrigerator part. Everything's already there and they're just milking more money for absolute zero. You can't fix them, everything is chipped and locked off so you just can't swap parts. A horrible company.
Hahaha man those analogies are amazing 😂 It's so true. They need to get rid of this asap and just sell us fuly unlocked bikes. Keeping the cost a secret is misleading and it's going to piss off a lot of riders.
Well said. It’s a shame Zero hasn’t made any of the multitude of ideas we, and other Zero owners have begged them to do, but rather just rip people off for minor improvements that they then charge a huge premium for. If there isn’t new leadership at Zero, it won’t survive the competition that’s developing globally on e motorbikes
That's exactly it! If you look at what was actually added to the bikes since last year, it's only 1kW more charging power, and 3kWh more battery capacity... and they're charging us more money for both. What happened to improving bikes every year just because technology has moved forward? How expensive are these bikes going to get??
About that fast charging, you might be right for the US market. But EU market uses three phase charging stations. Here more that 99 percent of the stations near major roads at least 11kW 3-phase, so you can charge up to 9kW (9.9kW with the 10 percent upgrade) with ZERO. 90 percent of stations are at least 22kW capable so you can charge 12kW (13kW after upgrade) with ZERO.
Yeah I think that's the craziest part about all of this. The American-made motorcycle makes more sense in Europe than it does in America.
The thing with biking is: and I am speaking from 45 years experience, in order to buy these hyper expensive vehicles, both bikes and other electric vehicles, you generally start with a small bike. Then, over the years as your skill improves, you get bigger and more expensive vehicles. One of the main problems these industries have is that young people are faced with prohibitively high prices and running costs so in time there will only be older people riding and then in another few years biking will become obsolete.
Here in the UK, the infrastructure for electric vehicles just isn't in place and probably won't be for at least another decade or two.
And here is my point, I live next to the Pennine Hills in Yorkshire. The nearest Tesla supercharger is 15 miles away from here. That's a 30 mile round trip to start with. Then there's the point that, as a professional driver, I could never afford a Tesla so if I was to go electric, I would have to get a much cheaper vehicle and as such, one with a lot lower range. I live on a hill side so can't charge from home. Bring the prices right down, install universal chargers everywhere and stop this ridiculous game of selling us half products and then ripping us off even more 'Pay Per Software Install Upgrades'.
Zero Motorcycles, like a lot of modern companies deserve to go under, just for the facts they are blatantly ripping us off.
Yep, I hear you man. As the price of batteries went down, the price they were asking for their bikes went up. Zero changes the paint colour and adds on an extra $500 😂 It's insane. At least they listened to all of us complain about the Cypher Store and decided to axe it. Now they sell the bikes fully unlocked.
Wasn’t aware of this new model. Thanks for sharing
For sure! Lots of new and exciting asterisks :D
Amazing video, bro. Very well done.
Thank you so much!
Quoting the CEO in an argument against Zero. Baller move, love it.
LOL thanks bro. Even overlaid transparent Energica videos on top of him. I'm so mean.
@@NewZeroland I saw that; very creative and fun! :-)
Great video! I feel the same. This just a giant load of nonsense.
The notion that this makes their bikes more affordable is ridiculous. Zero have already paid for the hardware to go on the bike, so the argument that value is being added through optional updates is not fooling anyone.
How about they make the base price the price which includes all the upgrades the owner has in fact already paid for already activated and then they make the corresponding discounts by allowing the owner to deactivate features?
That's right! Turn off your heated grips functionality and they send you the money back. It's really no more ridiculous. If they really care about reaching a wider customer base, they need to stop this gimmick and concentrate on DC charging.
Tesla can get away with it, but they figured out DC charging a long time ago. ;-)
Small, incremental shifts indeed.
Is the basic 14.4 2022 SR/F the same price as a 2021 SR/F ?
If so: you get more hardware and have to pay for all the upgrades: sounds normal.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say you get all the upgrades without paying for them when you buy the bike, you just can't access them? You aren't paying for anything you can't use. Zero is selling you a full-featured bike at a discount price, and allowing you to choose which of the features is worth you paying extra for.
This is hard to put into words, but basically Zero is selling you a bike with all the upgrades already included, for no extra cost upfront, and then allowing you to choose which of the upgrades you want to pay to unlock. And the unlocking process is as easy as pressing some buttons on your phone, no need to take it in to a dealership or anything.
Honestly, it's actually kind of genius, though their messaging could use some work.
Holy crap that reverse Cypher Store downgrade idea is GENIUS hahaha. This whole thing makes me wonder how much of a loss Zero is taking selling their bikes at these prices. What happens if no one pays for the upgrades? Have Zero taken that into account already? If so, they could sell fully-loaded bikes for less money, and people would be way happier.
We expect progress every year, and as battery tech gets cheaper, why charge us more for it? You're right.. Zero needs DC charging. I just hope they don't offer it as a $2k unlockable feature!
@@falcor86 I completely get how it all works. I'm just pointing out how mad it is. As you rightly say, you already have all the upgrades, but you can't access them. Zero has already made the outlay for the hardware. There is literally no financial loss to them in hardware terms by enabling these features by default, but you know what it would do? Make the overall bike a more appealing proposition to a larger number of bikers.
I'm only speaking personally, but this move has also tarnished a company I've supported for years. They should be thinking about promoting wider adoption of electric motorcycles in their own long-term interests, rather than squeezing money out of owners for hardware they've already paid for.
@@falcor86 the problem here is weight. You're carrying around a bigger battery and extra chargers that you can't use. With the detuned SR, you're carrying around this weight with 40hp less.
love it. so right. Have been riding Zeros for 11 years now and had breakfast with the then CEO at the Palo Alto Starbucks on a Sunday morning! But since the marketing guys have taken over .... Wondering what to buy next.
Oh maaaan! Zero had such a cooler vibe back then. Back when you needed help and you would talk to a person from Zero, not just a service tech at a dealership. I still love my SR, but my next bike will be an Energica. I can't say enough good things about them 😁👍
there are many 6.6 and 7.2Kwh EVSE out in the states.
That's good to know. I've heard a lot of stations barely do 5kW.
Making me even happier with the Energica "premium"
Haha yep, you made the right choice!
Thanks, I'll be looking at other manufacturers.
Definitely check out Energica!
You nailed it. The USA "us" business model...it's everywhere. Most people don't notice until after they spent their money.
What's crazier is that a lot of the bike's parts aren't made in the US. It's designed and assembled there, but it isn't fully "American made".
@@NewZeroland outsource the parts to other countries is part of the USA business plan since the free trade agreement in the 1990's.
Love the content, staying honest about the state of the ev motorcycle market is the best thing you can do. Up to the companies whether or not they listen. Love my zero, but I can’t see myself buying another one/upgrading with the direction they’re headed. Not sure what market research they did or what niche they’re trying to fill :/
Yeah man, exactly. Charging-wise I think their bikes work really well in Europe, where high powered AC stations are easier to find. The locked up battery and power is insulting though.
You have compare it to the previous 14.4 SR/F.
You get this.
You want more, pay for it.
You want reverse, pay for it.
Don't want/need? Don't pay for it.
But maybe later you want it, no problem, buy it on your own bike instead of buying a better version.
@@dennisnl7125 but why pay for it to be built into a bike and not be able to use it unless you pay more. It comes off as a cash grab. Especially when the competition has those features as standard for less, better range, DC charging etc. Just sayin....
@@NewZeroland I mean what’s most confusing to me is how exactly were these decisions made from a business perspective. I’m not sure if streamlining their manufacturing to only producing premium models of their offering is really worth all of the trade offs they’re facing. Yes we as consumers gain post purchase flexibility (the dealership structure isn’t relatively robust compared to traditional companies), but they’re essentially taking a hit on overall overhead and betting on their customers having excess income to continually purchase software locked features down the road. There is typically more profit associated with more expensive products, so a lack of sales growth is the only reason I could see them headed in this direction. They’re just going to alienate a good amount of their current customers I feel, because they’re ultimately offering a less compelling product (they’re not operating in a vacuum, I tell people to look into energica when they ask about my bike at this point).
Same thing Tesla are trying to do, move the market to a place where when you buy a second hand vehicle you have to rebuy the premium features instead of getting them as the previous owner had spec'd
Couldent have said it better myself. Props for the editing. Energica is still way ahead. Wish Zero would catch up and put DC on their bikes.
DC charging will be a $2k unlockable feature lol
Boom. You say what we're thinking.
Haha thanks man. There isn't enough taco bell in the world to cheer me up.
I'm in agreement with you, Zero should be focusing about lowering the price of their battery, but instead they are increasing their bike price by almost 10% every single year
which is in line with just about every other manufacturer.
Absolutely! The bikes are getting slightly better every year (charging went up by 1kW, and battery capacity by 3kWh) but paying $27k for that is insane.
Still I prefer the Zero. There is also no best car, but a lot of different cars with their own +/-
The price is to high if no1 buys it. Zero is still here.
If they had added DCFC then itd be easier to put with this
Test rode a SRF this summer where i was made aware of this scam. When i was suprised it only had 140 km of range, the dealer explained i could unlock it for more $$$. Sale lost. Well that, and the bike breaking down sealed the deal for me.
It broke down on your test ride?? 😲 Wow lol. Zero really needs better quality control.
@@NewZeroland the dash lit up with "Battery Isolation Fault" so I pulled over and called the dealership. They told me to ride it back, but when I tried to restart it was a no-go. Fun bike, while it lasted but there is so much more fun to be had for far less $
@@brucerossonthetube oh boy, yep isolation faults are Zero's jam. If it rains you'll get error code lights all the time. Crazy that it wouldn't let you ride though.
Great video. Agree with your points from the consumer perspective. On the other side of the fence, I believe standardized hardware configuration with unlock-able features is a great way to reduce manufacturing costs. It makes a lot of sense for selling the bike at a more competitive price. Problem is that I have no other apples to compare mine to and I think Zero banks on that. Energica is an orange and I don’t see really any other manufacturer making a similar spec’d bike to the SR. Thus the high price tag they can put on these machines without worrying about losing market share.. for now.
-2020 SR/F owner and loving every minute of it (especially with the ICE backup bike for distance)
Thanks man! Yeah your SR/F is still better than the new SR, and there's no reason to upgrade to the faster charging unless you live in Europe. I'm still sad that they killed off the old SR, because now the entry level bike is nearly $18k, and below that is a Zero S with half the battery size. If Zero wanted to give us a million options to choose from, they should have kept the smaller SR. Manufacturing wise it's easier, for sure, but wasteful unless people pay for the upgrades. I really hope they kill this and just sell unlocked bikes at whatever they cost.
I agree with you Sam, However for the 6kW vs 7kW charging power, here in north America we are on 240V-30A and our standard charge stations are 7.2kW for the one on 240v and 6.2kW on the 208V. So to enjoy the 7kW in fact we can, it depend on which country you live in.
Good point. Now the 13kW setup definitely makes sense in Europe, but Zero needs to hook people up with Scott's dub-J kit for North Americans 😎
You are right. With the new ones. I drive a SR/S 2022 Version, 12kW Charger. But in Europe it's not a problem. Typ2 Charger are able to do this. On average I wait at the charging station for 30 minutes. But, Yes, if I have to decide now, there is only the noise of the energica, that's prevents me from switching. . .
Yeah it's way easier in Europe with 3-phase power. You guys have a great infrastructure.
Who bets used upgraded bikes get the upgrades reset so they have to pay again.
At least the Performance boost is a dealer install which I guess means they need to install another component, since its adding Motorcycle Stability Control as well (probably all they're adding).
Thankfully Zero has confirmed that the upgrades stay with the bike, but we know how buggy Zero's firmware is. It's hard to trust software-locked upgrades when we can't trust the bikes already.
This is where your neighbourhood hacker comes in handy. It's like my ( friend's ) computer has thousands of dollars in programs, but ( he ) got them for free. :P :P
Hahahaha oh yeah I have a friend like that too >___> haha this is definitely asking for someone to hack the Cypher code and release all the upgrades for free.
Eying a used 2020SRF premium. I will use the Cyhper store for sure.
Going from 6kW to 7kW is a great feature if you are waiting beside your bike.
Don't care it cost something.
Yeah the added charging power is really useful in Europe.
Hmmm, I've had my eye on Zero, just waiting for the right bike. Guess I'm gonna start looking at other bikes. Greed shows it's face, good for the competition.
True that. Sad to say, tech has improved so much in the last couple of years and Zero is falling behind.
Zero gangsta until Japan starts making amazing affordable electric motorcycles.
Yeppp, c'mon Honda! Where you at??
zero already sold the bike with the hardware on it. this isnt an upgrade this is a money grab.
i can understand zero selling the hardware to upgrade the bike...like a better charger and heated grips etc.
Yep, absolutely. None of this makes sense. If they want to get more people riding electric motorcycles, this is not the way to do it.
Extended range charging comes with an SR/S Cypher, maybe just the SR/S. 2022 bought in May 2023 out the door at $18k.
Do you mean the power tank or the unlocked charger that's built in?
I really appreciate this I just went from thinking about buying one to absolutely not wanting one
Go with an Energica instead 😎
@@NewZeroland sweet I’m gonna check that out! This video blew my mind what sh*tbags
Didn’t you know? Zero is sponsored by Raid Shadow legends. It has all sorts of in app purchases and you can have your favorite characters yell at you on the dash if you go too fast or aren’t riding the most economically depending on what mode your in and how much you spend.
HAHA it all makes sense now. How cool would it be if you could earn these upgrades while you ride? Like do 400 miles in a day and you get an achievement that adds more range to your bike so you can beat the 500 mile achievement?? I would buy that bike.
Damn! You just said the magic words. You would buy that bike… somewhere in Ca Zero marketing heard you and thought, “no way in hell will we make that. Cool idea though, Dan over in the billing department would love that. I don’t like Dan.”
Having all the features built into a vehicle but not accessible to the owner sounds like a huge waste of resources and should be prohibited by goverments globally. The only thing worse than DLCs for your car/bike are monthly subscriptions for keeping features unlocked. However, i'm afraid that it will become the norm in the future.
Yeah man, well said. It's weird to say but I hope someone hacks this Cypher stuff and releases all the unlocked features for free.
They went from hero to zero real quick xD
Bwahaha
Great video. This was informative. Through zero website it dosent really explain the charger and battery upgrade.
Thanks! Glad I could help. Zero made it pretty confusing 😂
Going to ride one tomorrow , thanks for the warning .
Good luck!
Super cool. Like Capcom's On-disk DLC. Certainly everyone is psyched about it 🤣
😂😂
The unlockable mode of working only makes sense for software or similar stuff for which the cost of creating one additional copy is zero. It would make sense for electronic traction control, for example. Otherwise you are paying for stuff that you're not going to use, as the cost of manufacture is always necessarily paid for by the customer.
Yeah, I totally agree. Unlock software, not hardware. This is asking for someone to hack it.
Ever since I heard of Zero I wanted a SR/S
Electric Supersports bike? Going 200km/h peak, and reach a 100 in barely over 2 seconds? Crazy!
But hearing all this, Zero has turned from "Shut up and Take my Money" to "I don't want a bitten Apple"
Change this Zero, otherwise you lost one potential future costumer, me.
I honestly don't care what manufacturer is printed on the side of my vehicle as long as I love riding it, so yeah, change it!
Yeah man! The bikes are great.. it's the company that needs to change. I really hope they do.
Also, are J plugs dying in the US? I just did a ride from LA to Vegas back in early October, and I needed to use the one J plug in Primm to make it. Now that charger is out of order, and there’s no way to make that leg of the journey. But there are plenty of CCS/Superchargers out there, and more coming.
There are always RV parks. I carry a Tesla UMC cable for NEMA 14-50 outlets as well as a Tesla Tap to allow Tesla Destination chargers. FWIW, J plugs in my area (Michigan) are getting more and more prevalent including 10 KW public JuiceBoxes.
Yeah that's the thing man.. there are lots of AC stations, but they might not all be J1772. Nema plugs at campsites are an option, as are Tesla destination chargers, but they'll require adapters to use.
I didn't know they & Tesla were doing this.
Pretty messed up & awkward.
I thought about built-in DLC, before you said it, but I also thought about hacking...not only people hacking to fully unlock their bikes, but what really worries me, are malicious hackers, tampering with modern over-computerized vehicles, to get people extorted, injured, or executed.
This is why I don't want any vehicle to have any wireless communication like this, at all, let alone with a sketchy parent company, or the Internet. If someone wants to hack my bikes, they have to take it apart, find a plug, do whatever hack, then put it back together, ALL without me knowing. And I'm planning independent alarm & surveillance systems, imitating Tesla Sentry Mode, but with audio, and encrypted.
I'm on the fence about software locking content.
If they really couldn't sell all that hardware for less, then it seems like a good idea. But I'm more disturbed by a company having any wireless influence on my property.
What else are in those unlocking updates?
I'm loyal to bikes, but if I ever buy a Tesla, the first thing I'm doing, is disconnecting it from the company. I don't care if the touchscreen becomes useless, and I need to swap in aftermarket motor-controllers.
Tesla, or anyone, can track & brick my car at any time.
I will not tolerate that possibility.
Yeah man.. it's an uncertain future we're headed into. This kinda stuff makes you question how much of your vehicle you actually own. It's like part of it still belongs to the bank of Zero 😂 I bought an Energica because they don't have any of this ridiculousness. It's just a bike that does everything you want it to, without misleading specs. Hopefully Zero realizes this pay as you go unlocking thing isn't what people want.
US only: If the Build Back Better bill passes, there could be up to $7500 rebate for electric motorcycles up to $25k. That could be a reason why Zero is artificially lowering the price of their fully loaded SR/F and SR/S models to slightly below $25k. That way you can get the $7500 rebate, and then upgrade it a little at a time as you see fit.
If and only if this rebate passes, I'll probably be upgrading my 2018 SR (with Charge Tank) to a new SR/F Premium (with Power Tank), and then add all the software upgrades later.
Thanks, that's good to know. I was hoping the bill would do more for Electric vehicles. My state ended their incentive program.
That's a great point. I wonder if it did influence Zero to raise their prices. Also, you're making the right call starting with the Premium model. Upgrading the Standard bike to become a Premium ends up costing $300 more for some reason. Maybe Zero has some incentive to start with Premium.
I would prefer energica...the main reason is the power factor which does not fade when the battery gets low. Correct me if I'm wrong but zero starts losing power when the battery goes under 40%. And basically becomes a golf cart when it's under 20%.. that's terrible..if I have less than 2 miles to get to my destination with 20%battery (knowing that's more than enough range)...let me control my own power!! Not the bike
@@rogerrabbit7469 my 2017 DSR does not lose power at 40 percent. It does when I reach 18%
@@rogerrabbit7469 in Italy we have a running joke over Italian bikes, especially about Ducati, that they drop parts as they go along. I once personally witnessed a Ducati owner running behind a rearview mirror
Came here from Louis Rossman, and subbed instantly.
You're the coolest!!
People forget Zero sells in Europe also were we have 3fase AC charging everywere.
Yeah that's the craziest part. This American motorcycle makes more sense in Europe than it does in America haha.
@@NewZeroland
Just like the DSR Black Forest was designed/wished for in Europe and at first only sold there.
If willing to spend 25K get the Zero unlocked to 17KW.... add fast charger for 13KW per hour.... get Tesla charging adapter.... have motorcycle with 100-150 miles of range and Tesla charging in just over an hour. I think a cheaper combo I'm gonna go with is an Aerial Rider Kepler (1800 bucks) for under 30 mile commutes and a Yamaha MT-03 (4600 bucks) for longer commutes.
Yeah like I said, there are better options for less money. Energicas get more range, charge faster, and cost less. Zero needs to make something better, and if it's not better, it has to be cheaper.
TBH in the zero world My Zero S 2020 model with a charge tank is the best model :¬), 156ish mile and you can type two charge on the go if needed for long trips, that said I use it for going to and from work and charge it once a week for about £2 a week.
100% agree! Remember I bought the SR/S premium (first in San Diego). Then when the charger tank was finally available I had to pay for the upgrade. I found myself dumping dollar after dollar trying to get what I was somewhat promised. Finally eating about 15K and jumping to Energica. Lesson learned. I honestly want competition between the big 3 (Zero, Energica and LiveWire) but damn Zero it is a bad move that buys time!
Yeah man! It makes no sense. Zero added 1kW of charging power and 3kWh of battery capacity.. both of which you have to pay extra for. This isn't a "huge leap" in any way.
@@NewZeroland the best leap in my mind is Scott’s Double J-plug!
The big issue for me is that there is still just three real competitors in the market. We need more. There is already over a hundred carbrands out there with electric cars. Wake up, motorcycle industry (at least in Europe), euro 7 is coming....
@@Chickenheart93 I recently installed Scott's Dub-J on my 2020 SR/F. I had a few mild hiccups, but the result is terrific!
@@fredecks4641 this would have definitely made my choice to jump to Energica harder.
Nicely put.
Cheers!
Couldn't agree more. The thing that has always annoyed me about Zero is that they purposely try to disguise vehicle figures from you, even when you dig on their official website. I also find Tesla to be insanely poor at providing vehicle specs, second only to Zero... In Norway (and Sweden as far as I'm aware), a majority of public AC chargers are 7.4kW, with many being either 11kW or 22kW, so it wouldn't be too hard here to take advantage of those different charging speeds. Atm I don't have a bike, but I've been looking to get an Energica for a while. Unfortunately there are no dealers up here, and I haven't been able to find anyone who imports them either. Like many other comments here, I'm looking forward to mainstream manufacturers to throw their hat in the pool, personally I'm banking on BMW to get it right first.
Yeah, that's a really great point! I talk about that in my next video a bit. Zero really makes configuring a bike as confusing and misleading as possible. It's also crazy that an American-made bike makes more sense in Europe than it does in America 😂 We'll see what BMW does. I hope they make SOMETHING. Even a citybike would be nice. The scooter is awesome, but crazy heavy.
Excellent video! Would love to see Zero bring DCFC sometime this decade.
HAHA me too, honestly. I don't know what's taking them so long.
In europe🇪🇺 we the most common charger is a type 2 charger instead of type 1 chargers in the 🇺🇸 . Maybe zeromotors is focussong more and more on europe. Great video by the way 🤟
Thanks! And yep, you're right. This American motorcycle doesn't make sense in America 😂 In Europe it's awesome.
Wow! That really sucks! Glad you mentioned the video game comparison. I'm shocked..., I know I'm not near getting a Zero yet, but was going to. I just got a SuperCub in the meantime, but now I may just have to forget about Zeros all together now. 😪
Oh man, SuperCubs are awesome haha. Bang for buck, an older used Zero is still the best, in my opinion. Like a 2017 Zero SR or something.
@@NewZeroland Thanks. I just wanted something easy as a beginning rider. If I had 20K I would have gotten a Zero, used Zeros in Hawaii are a rarity, the dealer just came to the Island 2 years ago...🤗
Well, that changes my mind on getting one. There are pre-owned ones from before the subscriptions but they're now out of warranty. I'm not taking my chances on that regardless of how cheaply priced they are.
Yeah Zeros out of warranty are risky because there is very little support. My motor encoder died and Zero wouldn't even sell me parts. Energica is the way to go 😎
@@NewZeroland If I had the cash for any given Energica, I'd go for one, specifically the Experia.
R.I.P. Zero Motorcycles
Hello Energica
Zero still rules the electric commuter market, but for high-end performance, they can't compete.
So basically when you get the base model you get the full weight of the premium model.
Yep 😂
People are going to jailbreak the hell out of those
HAHAHA I really hope some hacker gets in there and unlocks everything for free.
Well frakk them, was actually considering 1
You nailed it!
Thanks man!
so...what is the outcome of a business model that has the exact same material costs for a higher and a lower-cost bike and only a small number of customers opt-in for the higher-cost bike?
That's a great question. If no one pays for the upgrades, will Zero will make a profit?
It's almost like Zero doesn't care! I've just had a charge point installed in my home but on the UK gov website, Zero STILL isn't listed for our discount grant despite being hassled by us for 4 years! They told me last year they're "onto it".. Yeah right.
My next bike is looking more and more like being an Energica... But.... CHAIN DRIVE, FRIKKIN' CHAIN DRIVE! Arrrrrgh!
Yeaaaah man.... a lot of people prefer belt (I do too). In that case, have you ridden a Livewire? Now that prices have dropped, that seems to be the winner. It has all the high-end build quality and DC charging of Energicas, but the sound of a Zero.
@@NewZeroland Not ridden the livewire but would if offered. Getting an Energica ribelle evo on longer term loan next year so will see how it grabs me.
@@RoadcraftNottingham ohhhhh that's exciting! I can't wait to hear your thoughts.
was going to get a zero not getting one now
Yeah check out Energica or Livewire. They're way better for less money.
@@NewZeroland eh too expensive still tbh I’m probably going to get a used zero from 2021 or 2020 they are about 8k which is far more reasonable
I think a very important part has been forgotten here.
5 years warranty on a Zero batterypack.
By unlocking the extra capacity, Zero is basically risking that it could not make that 5 years and have to replace the Battery within the warranty periode.
What is Energica it's warranty periode of their bike and what is their pricing compared to the Zero
Zero's wording on the battery warranty is very strange. They only warranty the "outer casing" of the battery for 2 years. So what, if it leaks after 3 years, and the battery gets water damage are they going to deny my claim? Because it was the outer casing, which is no longer under warranty, that leaked.
I think Energicas have 3 year warranties, as do LiveWires. I don't know how it works with that unlockable part of the Zero battery... but I'd hope that those cells aren't just sitting there. Otherwise you have a dead part of your battery haha.
@@NewZeroland Energica: The duration of the battery limited warranty is 3 years (36 months) or 50,000 km (31,000 mi). This is probably due to fast charge port.
I have personally had my battery replaced under warranty and they even said it was extended from the moment the new one was put in they gave me another 5 years from that point.
What I would be worried about with this is that they may just decide to unlock the other part of the battery if it degrades to 80% and just call it a "replacement of capacity". Having dealt with my charger going out (within the warranty period but the shop not working on it until a few days after the warranty expired) and having to pay for everything out of pocket for their defective vendor hardware that allows water to get in and short out the electronics I wouldn't put that past them.
As I understand it, Zero’s battery warranty is for “battery” component parts only, ie. it covers only the farisis pouch cells, for manufacturing defects, failure and early degradation, but only if the battery has been charged and maintained in accordance with Zero’s/Farisis recommendations. Other battery hardware including casing, cabling or connectors are not included in the battery warranty. Please update me if this is now not their policy.
3:24 you gave us the middle finger ... 🙃
😂😂😂
Check out their customer service issues. I have read some serious horror stories on here about that.
For $20k plus for a friggin motorcycle there should not be any issues at all.
Yeah I'm on the list of riders who encountered "Zero" customer service. My motor died and I couldn't buy a new one from them. They don't sell motors and refuse to ship stuff to you because they don't want people working on their own bikes. I won't be buying another Zero, that's for sure.
I’m retired now but I trained new personnel off and on for years. The one thing I pushed was customer service. It may be the one and only time they have contact with you but they’ll remember a good or bad experience for years.
@@Dusty11408 well said. Buying the company is more important than buying the product. When my bike broke, Zero ghosted me, so I made sure everybody knew this.
I agree
About to get my sr/f premium next week , In the French alps.
And this new idea to treat us like ravian EV carmaker might heart the company.
Cheers from France us riders 👍
Thanks! Good luck with your Zero 😁👍 Which charging did you get?
@@NewZeroland you bet
I know I will love it , I fell in love with it and immediately sold my BMW k 1600 GT 1600 GT which was really extremely well equipped, but unreliable after 40000 miles. But fully loaded for 34000 dollars in France
(20 % VAT 😳 And we never went On strike for such high taxes 🤔)
You take care
@@NewZeroland
Mine is equipped with a 2 time 3kw (a total of 6kw ). I will not buy the extra battery pack. which cost in France nearly 3800 dollars. But I will buy the 10% extra charge which cost here 220 dollars on the cypher app. Fortunately most supermarkets are free of charge in my little town same at KFC , Burger King and places like that.
I really respect that you do not seem swayed by the modern tribalism that is brand loyalty. It is important to see that this type of corporate behavior is becoming common with modern consumer products in general. Whether this is caused by companies being run by a bunch of greedy people or if it is the result of certain changes happening within society is up for debate in my opinion.
Without diving into some unwanted treatise on my personal geopolitical views, I do have some hope that some of these exploitative behaviors might be curbed with right to repair laws. Admittedly, there are valid intellectual, technical and legal challenges that undermine the right to repair movement.
Once Upon a Time, one of the main entry barriers to riding a motorcycle at least in the United States was a need for general mechanical skill and knowledge. This was also once true if you wanted to drive a horseless carriage. As time goes on, the consumer has generally started to view automobiles like home appliances. Many consumers just want to pay for a convenient product and cost becomes secondary to perceived value. I think zero's marketing and strategy is toward that type of consumer. They are obviously not very interested in the traditional motorcycle gearhead / tinker/eccentric or critical thinker.
It all really makes sense when you consider the background of their current CEO, coupled with the easily deduced fact that Zero is essentially not a profitable company, surviving on capital from a major investor. My depressing prediction is that Zero will eventually be sold off to a larger company and go the way of Brammo. I think investors will try to hang on to the reins until the company's perceived value climbs to a certain level - if global supply issues and inflation don't bankrupt them first.
And hey, if you don't agree just remember that this comment was made possible by the opinions of a random stranger on the internet :-)
Thanks for your input! Yeah I'm totally fine with 0-60mph times being recorded on a dyno. They aren't what you'll ever see in the real world, but they help sell electric motorcycles and that's what I want to see more of. The butt dyno is all that really matters. City range, however, riding at 10mph the whole time, is not a helpful spec to promote. I really hope Zero (and others) change that marketing tactic.
@@NewZeroland I did not intentionally ghost edit my last comment - just accidentally pressed the send button before I was finished. I even added a conspiracy theory element to get you more views LOL.
I seriously do appreciate your channel though.
Receiving my ex demo SR next week, fully unlocked :)
Nice! Enjoy 😁
Whoa, and the Bosch safety tech is also behind the performance boost paywall?
YEP! Crazy right?
Agree 💯! No DC fast charging? NO SALE. The fact it now costs MORE than an Enérgica 🤯... Zero pleeeease! Get good or know your place.
If they ever offer DC charging it'll probably cost $2k to unlock.
@@NewZeroland $2k to unlock... the the charging cable from the bike... Each time. 😂
Totally agreed with everything in the video. When the time comes, I'm going to buy Energica. No questions asked. Zero is burying itself with this move.
Cheers man! I hope Zero reads these comments and doesn't go through with this. They're going to put people off electric motorcycles entirely.
@@NewZeroland I hope so too, if they did not made up their minds already. When you showed in a video the difference between Energica and Zero customer service, I was blown away. The fact that Energica gave you detailed steps how to change stuff on your motorcycle, that made all the difference. Still waiting for a cheaper motorcycle from both manufacturers, but for now, Energica is winning me over.
Awesome information! Thank you for sharing this! Of course, I’ve been looking into powertrains, the H-D revelation has a rad to cool the power train? The Zero doesn’t seem to need to be cooled down. They have also made a deal with Polaris to use their powertrains, so that might be their focus now? Anyway, thanks again!
Yep, for sure. Livewires and Energicas have liquid cooled motors because they're higher performance. Zero's air-cooling is great if you don't plan on riding aggressively.
I understand the points you make about having a bike with all the abilities but having to upgrade but I see it a different way. My upfront cost is less and still have the option to have the full bike later. I can see if I am happy with it as is or still have an option to build it out without $130 an hour in labor cost. The modular aspect is IMHO a nice one to have but with an electric bike that extra weight causes less range. I have been considering one of three zeros a 2021 SR, 2022 SR/F, or 2022 SR. Right now I am leaning towards the SR because I could upgrade it to the SR/F level over time and if I was to purchase all of the cypher upgrades I have the total investment at $24,362. Add in heated grips that have to be installed by the dealer I'm still under 25k (figuring under 3 hr of work at $130 an hour). This puts it on par with an SR/F with all upgrades except for the charge time but would cost you $25,882. The only difference is charge time but most often I would be charging at home with a 110v until I can figure out how to add a 220 to my garage or shed. So with all that said the only difference I can figure you end up with on a 220v charger is 2.5 hours vs. 4.1 hours. For me, I can't justify saving 2 hours of charging when 99% of the time I'll be asleep during it.
With all that said the 2021 SR would be the least expensive option and out of the box it has a greater range, but it is not modular. It has limitations to what can be modified. If I added a charge tank to help with charge time 1) there is a long wait time now 2) the cost of the tank and installation comes close to 17.5k getting close to the cost of the base cost of the 22 SR that can be upgraded further over time.
Leaning hard towards the 2022 SR but still thinking about the 2021 SR. Any help in my considerations is appreciated.
also my numbers include my fright taxes and fees on the base price.
If you REALLY want a Zero, instead of the other electric motorcycles available right now like Livewires and Energicas, then yeah your mindset makes sense. In my opinion, even $17k is too close to a used Energica to ignore all the range and charging limitations Zeros have.
@@NewZeroland the issue with an engerica for me is the closest dealer is 7 hours away. I guess I haven't really considered the live wire but it's less miles than the zero so why would that be a better bike? I'm very new to electric bike or even vehicles. Only had electric bicycles. Looked up DC chargers in my area there's 2 with none being built in in Iowa USa not an electric Forward place. there are a lot of level two. I've been watching your videos they are great ty.
It looks like DC is nice but for limited access of dc fast chargers the live wire would tak 10 hours on a level 2. Zero may just make more sense for me because it charges much faster on level 2 which is more avilibal in my area. I had no idea there was this difference thought it was more standard. Looks like we have a phone charging cable battle brewing. Yeah more multiple cords lying around but bigger 😂🤦♂️
@@velovloger2553 it gets worse the deeper you go. With AC charging you need to carry tons of adapters with you because none of the stations are the same. Lots of the high power AC charging is at campsites / RV parks. As more DC stations are installed, it won't make sense to ride something with only AC.
@@NewZeroland I think for me after researching here and knowing the US we are still 4-5 years out for a solid DC infrastructure especially where the majority of my riding happens. By that time there will be more advances in the tech and I’ll be ready to upgrade from my starter bike, and I’ll finally get to own an Italian bike which is a dream of mine since I was a kid, but hopefully a throwback cruiser style. With that said your content is great. I know Europes move to electric is far ahead of the US. Take ebike sales here in the US they are just now starting to gain like maybe 20-30% of all sales. In Europe it’s been above 60% of all sales for some time now.
The real question is: what does it really cost to make the bike?
It's got to be somewhere between $17K and $21K delivered. Zero is betting on some people paying for more features, and some people wanting to pay less and putting up with fewer features. So IMO they should just offer the full package at that in-between price. It's probably much easier for them to make one model that has everything than have different models and different stock.
Tesla's already experimented with this, and we know the results. It's just not worth their while making the smaller batteries for the few people who want the bargain basement price. For a while you could pay less to have a battery that you could unlock later, but that went out the window pretty quick because it was unpopular and made Tesla look bad. Zero needs to learn that lesson.
Some people are always going to want stuff cheaper. Most of us know you get what you pay for. So I think most of us would be prepared to pay $19,900 (say) for a full package Zero, rather than $21K to upgrade just to get the features you've already got in your bike.
Yep, I agree with you 100%. Just give us a fully-loaded bike for the price of a base Premium model. Surely that would sell more bikes and be more profitable for Zero in the long run. What if nobody pays for upgrades? Surely Zero isn't losing money on this.
Knowing the hardware they put into these bikes and the vendors they go through for their parts plus the assembly process I'd put their cost to make it delivered at about $9-12k realistically. Now I'm sure a lot of that profit goes back to marketing/distribution and should in theory go into R&D (it's clearly not) but trust me they don't operate on a razor thin margin, they've sort of stayed in business (multiple buyouts) all this time for a reason.
Lol amazing video!👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻
Cheers!
I was actually considering buying a Zero, but this just made totally sure I am not gonna do it, thanks for saving me a lot of money, I think Ill just get myself a nice Honda instead.
There are better options if you still want to go electric. Right now Energica is the ultimate 😎
@@NewZeroland yeah problem is here in Denmark they start at around 32k here in Denmark.. and I am not willing to pay that much
The worst thing about software locking features is that it guarantees that the owner will be prohibited from modifying and possibly repairing their own bikes. It means that modding your bike to make more power is going to be looked on as theft instead of applied ingenuity.
Why people deal with companies that are hostile towards people who love their products is beyond me.
Modders, hackers, tuners, hot-rodders, whatever name they go by, these guys love their products way more than the average person - they want to keep using them even though something else would be more suitable - but all the companies see is the downsides, liabilities and loss of control, when the human thing to do is to embrace their efforts and assist the community to work safely and collaboratively and to share improvements to all customers who want them.
It's easy to see how community bug fixes to things like regen brakes or throttle response could conflict with app based upgrades even though they have a strong impact on safety.
The manufacturer would no doubt claim that messing with your brakes or throttle with random shit downloaded off the internet is insane, while the people who patch obvious bugs in these systems themselves would say it's insane to ride a bike with known bugs in the braking and throttle systems. Just as an example of how communities and corporations butt heads and are buttheads.
Sooooo well said, Steve! The early Zero days were so exciting for thus reason. People were adding aftermarket chargers, tuning the controller for more power, and absolutely diagnosing problems themselves. All of that is over now, and it makes me sad.
The cost comparisons to Energica really sent this one home. Just... oof. Big oof. I think the engineers at zero are killing it, their batteries aside from being the wrong voltage, are really damn good. But the sales/marketing and corporate "mission" are shackling their work to poor standards of customer relations... and I can't help but be sad about it.
Yeppppp! Exactly man. The bikes are still amazing.. I just wish they'd sell them fully loaded, ready to rumble. They need to be up front about the price and what the bikes can do. I'm afraid of the backlash the whole electric motorcycle movement will get from disappointed road trippers.
Only problem is that dc fast charging isn't everywhere.
Not yet, but it's the future we need to be working towards.
Love my SR and it still has a long life ahead of it. Hopefully I will get my superchargers back some day...
Yeah man! I still tell people that the best bang for buck is an "old" SR.
I get what you're saying, but from an engineering and economy of scale standpoint, it's easier to have fewer options and SKUs. Personally, for a touring bike I would max out and SR/S on charging and get the Dual J kit. The US still has way more Level 2 stations than DCFCs and more of those are creeping up towards 10 KW like the EnelX JuiceBoxes. So bikes like the LiveWire with DCFC only or Level 1 can't use the Level 2s effectively...just see Long Way Up. I wouldn't write Zero off just yet. Let's see how it plays out.
Indeed, also in Europe AC everywere. DC mostly highways and who wants to go there on a bike.......?
I think it doesn't have to do with economy of scale but rather they're betting that with time customer will unlock most options.
I don't think that putting heated handle, additional chargers or a bigger battery as standard make them do some economy.
I’m not so sure about Level 2s in the US. All I’ve ever seen are 6kw stations split between two plugs (with luck you get the station to yourself). Many are in disrepair, and very few new ones are being added. Level 3s are popping up everywhere.
Now we're talking about a $28k Zero with only a 17.3kWh pack. I know there are technically more AC stations in the US, but DC is growing fast. Electrify America, ChargePoint, Ford, eventually Tesla being open to all CCS vehicles... that's a huge deal. If Zero doesn't offer a bike with CCS soon, they'll be stuck in the past, charging people way more money for it. I'm only hard on them because I care XD
@@NewZeroland
Still, don't know how, but Energica's come from Italy in Europe, but here they are much more expensive compared to America:
ENERGICA ESSEESSE9 13kWh €19830
ENERGICA ESSEESSE9 21kWh €25880
ENERGICA EVA RIBELLE 21kWh €28360
ENERGICA EGO 13kWh €23800
ENERGICA EGO 21kWh €30140
ENERGICA EGO CORSA KIT CLIENTI €44000
Zero 2022 SR, start €19200
Zero SR/F, start €23400
Zero SR/F premium, powertank €27000
Zero SR/F all Cypher €29300
Zero SR/S, start €21900
Zero SR/S premium, powertank €27750
Zero SR/S all Cypher €30050
We must be very rich in Europe.... 😳😔
€1 ~ $1.13
Now I'm glad I still have a 2015, as flawed it is.
Right?? I love my 2015!
It feels a whole lot like back in the day when you'd buy games for full price on physical media and they'd include the DLC ON THE DISK. I paid 60 bucks I have the game and the content in my house, cant use it without dropping an extra 12.99. Like WTF Capc-- I mean Zero!? In fairness it's a cost cutting measure, they make one devices and they wont have to split up the building process for various makes, but the whole thing smacks of a trend I'm hating where companies remove choice for their own sake and force and inferior experience. Like I'm looking at new phones and several newer models step backwards from the previous year to lower resolution screens and weaker processors like no one's going to notice or like they think no one can offer a better value. Thankfully I can still get last year's model, but it's still very concerning.
Dude, exactly. "Forcing an inferior experience" is an amazing way to put it. When you take a step back and look at the "huge leaps" Zero has made since last year's models... 1kW more charging power and 3kWh more battery capacity.. that's it. And you have to pay more for everything haha.
Can you imagine how much Tesla would blow these manufacturers out of the water if they made a motorcycle?
Man with their supercharger network and liquid-cooled batteries, they'd destroy everybody.