@@chanting_germ. forreal, not having to pretend that jesus is a superior hypothesis or a convenient belief effective for a healthy psyche really allows deep analysis into what scripture can tell us. I appreciate the ecumenism as far as that goes, but it really compromises the ability to go deep into what matters because one is forced to stay at surface level commonalities
This was quite amazing, thank you for this video. I can see the narrative patterns playing out and being refined over time in a way that was not clear before. Wonderful justification for the Bible for sure. This bit about the liver being associated with the passions and technology connecting to that is a real game changer for me. Attention divided and taken over by technology, the parasitic nature of this process, the idea of the fall as a cycle, it is all revealed (poorly) in the older stories and made more clear in tradition. This really backs up my thesis that stories are implementations, you have many good stories and those reveal narrative patterns, those narrative patterns reveal archetypes. Wonderful and too deep to digest so quickly. Thanks again!
Great stuff, I would love to see more like this. The bible is so condensed, seeing the related icons and parallel stories that fill in some of the details _really_ helps me get my mind around it and feel it more intuitively.
I always wondered about the nature of god in the Cain and Abel story, ever since I first heard it. The way I first heard this story, God showed Cain mercy by "marking" him so that he would not be killed by others. What got me wondering, even if it might be of no consequence, is the fact that right before Gods mark, Cain expresses that his burden is "too much for him to bear", "too much" suggesting he'd rather actually be dead. Gods mark would then actually not be mercy but the opposite, he'd be making sure Cain doesn't get killed and has to live with himself.
I think if you read it carefully Cain is referring to the fact that he must now live in constant fear and hiding from those who would avenge Abel and kill him as too much to bare. The mark is a mercy for it stops people from killing him. so yes it was a mercy. a more interesting question was mercy the right answer cause only a few generations later the earth is so corrupt with evil that God must kill every one except Noah and his family with the cataclysm. perhaps if God killed Cain then there would have never been a flood? after the flood God allows for the death penalty
You have to read the whole story. Not go by one or two verses. God gives His mark after Cain expressed concern about being killed after being sent away. That's not wishing to die.
Very interesting. In this context, the chaining to the rock and not being able to live out his passions and emotions, or to exercise free will, seems to be the harsher part of the punishment. I figured being chained all day and waiting for an eagle to eat your liver would be stressful, anxiety inducing, etc, and the act itself would of course be terrifying and painful, but I never considered the torture of him having deep desires, and passions that will never be fulfilled. I only considered the fear aspect. A thought that occured to me after watching this is maybe Zeus was being compassionate in some way by having the eagle eat Prometheus' liver, giving him a moment to finally relax and be ok instead of burning up inside. Obviously a human would be dead instantly if their liver was eaten, but Prometheus lives and his grows back daily. Sure it's physically painful, but the trade off would be a peaceful mind and soul energy. I'm thinking of what I've learned about some monks that try to silence their minds, and to minimize their desires by doing rituals, meditating etc. When one has a desire or is passionate about something, they also have unrest until the desire realized and the passion is fulfilled or lived out. I typed this as it came to me, and didn't think it through much, so maybe I'm off base, but maybe someone else has an opinion or something to add? Symbolically, the cycle of addiction came to mind.
I also considered that the eagle might have been eating Prometheus's anger, sdness or worry, all of which are known (in Chinese medicine) to be stored in or associated with the liver.
I think that the work of Cain and Abel is significant. Able participates/works in the order that God has already created, he has authority over the animals. Whereas Cain is tilling the soil, changing the land. He is solving the problem of being by going around it. Instead of working with what beings already exist, change the structure of the land to change what beings you have to work with. I think this idea of going around the problem and modifying the way in which we participate in reality is the root of technology.
Ok, just wondering about the rest of that thread.... What are you trying to convey? Just the definition of technology? Are you trying to say something about the goodness of technology? IIRC, Jonathan describes Adam and Eve being furnished animal skins to cover themselves after the fall as the beginning of technology. I'm just wondering how what you said would tie into that, or if your line of thought leads to a different understanding.
I'm pulling in some of the meaning around land as the structure or order of a place as well as that from which beings emerge. Both Cain and Abel are faced with the problem of the fall and the problem of work. One works within the structure that already exists and the other tries to change the structure, both solve the problem and both make sacrifice but one receives blessing and the other receives curse. From there Cain repeats the same logic, instead of accepting being as it was presented to him he attempts to change the nature of reality by giving the curse to Abel and killing him. Now we all live by modifying the structure of reality instead of accepting the order that we have been given.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful Allah Glory to him said: Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31- That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32- Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
Great video Jonathan, I like the fact that you are always going, "...look look look this is how you look at the story to see what the through line is, let's pay attention to why it's talking like this".
Hey Jonathan. I was wondering if you ever considered whether or not there is a point in which this web of symbolism just becomes TOO much for the average person? Maybe you could do a video about the limits of our own comprehension, and when it might be best to step back. Perhaps there is a point in which we dive so deep it starts to become more of a hinderance to understand the average human’s life. Perhaps it can turn into something like when conspiracy theorists start digging so deep down they become almost detached from the reality of their actual personal lives. Just a thought, loved this video by the way 👍
If we become as a child in a new language or world that we abide with as a felt resonance, trust or intuitive guidance, then something will come through because we are not seeking to put new wine into old thinking habits. be willing to not know rather than seeking to run ahead. Along the way of trying to understand, we burn out or break the self-confidence of a presumption to know in our own right and become willing to stand under. the idea we are being lied to is not wrong, but is given almost exclusive focus as Them, rather than thinking that I participate in as a social masking and distancing that can be seen as conspiring to discard our Spirit or Soul so as to run each our own version of a collectivised and normalised denial, in which pain of isolation and conflict can be rendered unconscious or perceived as at the hand of others so as to drive retribution. You are completely right in the integration of spiritual learning to our daily life. That is the way in which we recognise being on track as both giving and receiving in truth. Which comes back to Cain becoming resentfully focussed on his brother as a source of problem - and false 'solution' instead of realigning his own receiving as a true basis to give from.
the key is to have something positive you are constantly building you can cast a very wide net, then sort through it and take what is useful to test, extend, or otherwise improve that structure you are building if you're purely negative and sceptical, like most conspiracy theory stuff is, then you can very easily deconstruct the rock you are standing on another good test is that true symbolism is scalable --- it operates in extreme detail, but also on a simpler, almost perceptual level. If you are lost in this see of fragmented details, pull way back, focus on the things that scale, and burn the rest
I think it boils down to perspective. I feel many people into conspiracy theories think they're doing something positive. It's a sacrifice, if you will. Many people shun them and look down upon them. They feel they're being lied to by the bad guys, and they want to do a service by learning the truth, no matter how dark it is, or how uncomfortable it makes them feel, because they want to share it so people to have free will. You can't have free will in a system of lies. Just because something is dark, or uncomfortable, or gross, or sickening, etc, it doesn't mean it's negative, or that it's negative to learn about it. Sometimes it's needed. We all poop right? So does society, and so do governments, etc. It's part of life. Of course most people aren't going around all day talking about poop, because it's gross, and because of that it makes people uncomfortable. I'ts definitely not negative though. Could you imagine if we didn't do it? When the wind blows it may ruffle the feathers of a bird which is uncomfortable, but we obviously need wind for things to function properly here on Earth. As individuals we also all tell lies. We generally don't spend the day talking about them either, and my opinion is that most of them are probably negative. Because of this it's important to know that just like individuals, collections of individuals like governments, corporations, etc, also are dishonest from time to time. To me, that's why conspiracy theorists exist. They feel that lies are negative so they want to flip it positive by finding truth. Lots of people would rather just take the comfort and peace of mind in not knowing. Some may consider that apathy though, to just go with the flow and believe anything, knowing there is evil in the world.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful Allah Glory to him said: Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31- That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32- Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
The right hierarchy is the blessing given by God to Abel for his work, while the corrupted version of the hierarchy would be the one Cain tried to obtain through artifice. This is a lesson in humbleness, of "git gud" attitude instead of cheating. Yet, cheaters are most of the time the rulers in the world. That's why the unfair rich man breeds himself the revolutionary. That's the cycle of the passions.
I've really enjoyed your insights. Always takes me awhile to let it sink in. I keep trying to figure out the left hand and right hand exchange. When god from his perspective uses his right hand , my assumption is because God has thus ordered the intelligence or wisdom from his left? This wisdom is ready to be given to able's left hand, Because Able was properly creating or intelligence gathering. When Cain does this he does not perform an act of order that is God's and the smoke backfires on him because he did not see (eyes burn) the problem in left to right movement of wisdom? And I assume because his sacrifice is expedient and not meaningful? To quickly selected and not accounting for all possibilities. Give something to god of man's toil, not mother nature's fruit? Idk Great work Johnathan. And also saw you had your red crusader chain mail ready under your garments to defend Jordan during this Muslim talk. Admirable🙏
Awesome. It's refreshing to hear perspective on ancient writings and myths in how they exist to portray transcendent metaphysical truths, and how the characters and their actions become vague as the truths emerge, knowing they are applicable for all people at all times. It lets us realize just how evil this world really is as I feel we have surpassed the evil of those who existed pre-flood and how mankind left to his own devices is irredeemable in themselves. All of the stories of Genesis are manifesting themselves today in every way possible, to the point it's difficult to see what's real and not artificial. It's like mankind is bent on going to a place it knows not, at an increasing speed and recklessness as each former generation manipulates the latter in an effort to continue the cycle. The latter generations become fuel in an effort to extend the will of the former.
"transcendent metaphysical truths" Are you for real??? Just like that, this is nonsense to the highest degree. Did you say this with a straight face????
And why the elements that become Christ's Body and Blood are very pointedly elements which were made by human hands. Technology in the Christian tradition seems less like a bad thing so much as a powerful example of corruptio optima pessimi -- our ability to co-create is where God's image shines most clearly in us, so it creates the biggest disasters when it goes wrong. And since those who misuse it are inclined to form civilizations upon the murder of those who don't... that's a big problem. The pagans could very well have just been anti-technology, though.
The City of God is the redeemed city, it’s is integrating what came from the fall without it’s falleness. In the Bible, after each fall, God tries to work with the products of what’s has fallen all the way up to Moses & the kingdom
I think this also plays back into Genesis as well. Tree of good/evil (knowledge) in tandem with the tree of life (wisdom). Knowledge becomes irrelevant without the ability to understand it's broader context and integrate it fully, as we have seen with the descent into technological reliance. Upon leaving the garden, humans begin to systematically add layers of confusion onto their true nature, leading them ever further from God and God's destiny for humankind
Are we given a hint in that Cain brought "the fruit" as his offering? It seems to me that Cain is attempting to fix things, he wants to end the curse. His Mother and Father stole the fruit, he is "returning" the "fruit" to God. Humanity was cursed and he was prophesized to "crush the head" of the serpent. Cain was fixing things. He was rational and wanted to appease God. He was transactional and mechanical in his thinking. Abel appears to follow in his brother's footsteps, not in "fixing" things, but bringing something to God. Able is much more naïve and childlike than Cain. He brought the firstborn and the fat portions, things that Able himself valued and wanted to give to God. Before this God never said he desired that kind of offering. Able seems to intuitively and lovingly stumbled into God's favor. of course this makes Cain furious because Able is not doing it correctly. God want's "the fruit" not some dumb sheep. Cain had it systematized, theologized, and figured out, and yet, he got it wrong.... and simple Able, seemed to please God without thinking.
I think you nailed it my friend! 😍 I made a post today. Please read it. It was not written by me but I read it today from a group I'm in. It is not exactly like yours but the message is the same. Thanks for sharing!
Two things I also note about these stories. One (and you touched upon this) is how in Cain and Abel, Cain and his decendents are portrayed in a negative light where as Prometheus in particular is viewed in a positive sense. Two is the parallel between how Lamech tells his followers how he will be avenged 70 times 7 and how Jesus tells Peter to forgive 70 times 7.
"Cain and his descendants" I saw your comment and nearly pissed myself. Do you understand what you wrote here??? Where was the WOMAN from Cain's descendants?? Up to this point, Cain had only his brother and Eve did not make more kids so Cain could procreate!!! So, before you make stupid comments, learn to observe what you are writing. This is pure Eisegesis, making shit up and passing it as actual events and the gullible swallowing it up.
@@LookOutForNumberOne The video talks about the Cain story, so that does include his descendants. He specifically references the city Cain builds. The Cain story doesn't just stop at Cain killing Abel.
@@wmolders8160 What descendants when according to the fake story there where 4 humans, mother, father and two kids. It does not matter what else the story says about Cain, it is FAKE.
@@wmolders8160 Oh, I see that you are gullible, see ya. You can't even imagine cain building a city on his OWN!!!! You have to be really that stupid, but I forgive you!!!
While watching this, I can't stop thinking on how Abel's sacrifice is a lamb - something soft, light, and material but that can become spiritual (union of heaven and earth - a balanced sacrifice), I mean, the smoke after the sacrifice. It's like it's heavenly thing, a wise (from wisdom) thing. I see Abel's way of life as devoted to "spiritual" way of life. I see him more like Jacob, the brother that stays at home, the scholar brother, aswell. On the other hand, I see Cain offering an "earthly" sacrifice; rigid, dark and, one that instead of going up, can get rotten - could move even more down to earth, as Cain himself goes south. So, he uses his "knowledge of good and evil" to do something unwise, and what it causes? The origin of civilisation. Something very unbalanced. Very dark, because that involves more "earth" than "heaven", more matter than wisdom. And it envolves matter in a trickst/cheating way. And maybe it even requires you to be a trickster first, than to fallow that path... and that maybe be related to Cain's resentment, that seems to have not abandoned him throughout "his story". And that's very interesting that in one of the stories mentioned by Pageau, it leads to some kind of prison envolving passion. Just like in our, and in the past civilisations.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful Allah Glory to him said: Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31- That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32- Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
J'aimerais beaucoup te voir discuter avec un musulman dans la veine d'un Cheikh Hamza Yusuf, je suis un Québécois musulman, mes parents sont venu du Monténégro, et je trouve que le rapport de la Chrétienneté orthdoxe avec celui de l'Islam sunnite est bien plus intéressant qu'à l'égard d'autres courants religieux s'y trouvant... Merci, et bonne continuation pour ton excellent travail M. Pageau.
Cain offers the work of his own hands to God, leading him to become proud and resentful about Abel's sacrifice which is that of humbly offering to God a lamb which is a foreshadowing of Christ the lamb, the only offering which is pleasing to God.
Seems to me Lamech kills his past and his future (as did Cronus), which means he cannot resurrect his father, nor can his son resurrect him, so he destines himself to remain in hell. Thoughts?
16:22 I think that the best presumption we can take if we take in consideration the entire bible is that Cain's sacrifice is rejected not because it was a bad sacrifice but because Cain himself was a bad person, Its not the only time God refuses a sacrifice in the bible and the other times God refused the sacrifice not because of the sacrifice itself but because the people doing the sacrifice
I just watched the conversation with you, Dr. Peterson and Mohammed Hijab. I would describe myself as a Christian too, but I've always had some problems with some beliefs, like the original sin. I heard you mention that Orthodox Christianity rejects original sin, or at least as Mohammed Hijab described it, so I will research the subject more. For some reason your interview touched me, you seem like a kind soul. God Bless.
Orthodox don't reject original sin, Jonathan was rejecting Hijab's definition/caricature of it. To be honest I've always found it one of the easiest doctrines to understand. Without a fallen humanity it would be difficult to understand why sin, suffering or evil exist in the first place despite man being made in the image of a loving God.
Definitely read further. Original sin is understood differently than it is in the West (Catholics and Protestants). It’s a key difference and it helped me settle my issues with Christianity, I am catechumen in the Orthodox Church now. God bless your efforts.
@@nikola9348 I'm no theology scholar, but if I understand Orthodox teaching correctly, we do not believe people share the guilt of Adam's original sin. Adam's sin does cause us to die, but our sin is our own and his sin is his own. In other words, a baby born who, God forbid, dies before baptism is not doomed because of Adam (but this was the Western idea for a long time, although Catholics have softened it). The child has not sinned because it doesn't have the ability to make a choice.
@crbox'TV you will find that Orthodoxy treats sin as a disease that needs healing. The church sees herself as a hospita to dispense medicine, not a courtroom to meet out punishments. The ascetic practices, the prayers, the hymns, the Liturgy, the communion of saints living and glorified are all there as medicine to help us become tranformed into the Body of Christ. The hard part is we have to travel the same path as our Lord, the path of the cross, putting to death step by step, like a ladder, our sinful nature. The good part is, we don't have to travel that path alone, because the whole Body from the beginning is still here to help us.
@@ButterBobBriggs you're right, we don't believe we inherit Adam's sin or culpability for it. What I meant to say is that we do believe in the fall and that we are living through the consequences of that fall, in a state of estrangement from our true nature and God. And that propensity for sin entered the world through that fall (this propensity is inherited). The Church gives us the means through which we are made whole and reunited to God.
Indo -european is post war new speak for the word Aryan. The god loving, human loving ancestors of Christians, and the creators of modern civilization, always in a constant battle against the serpent seed of Cain. Shakespeare asks, what is a rose by any other name ? He was wise to know that names matter less than content or action. These stories are timeless in my opinion. That's why they're similar. Like the telephone game, the story changes slightly at every retelling.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful Allah Glory to him said: Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31- That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32- Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
Orthodoxy is more about intuition than knowledge.......We are supposed to use our authentic power in the service of something higher than us. We will be tested more and more, us our power increases.
There is always the prophetic forward looking aspect pointing to the sacrifice of a LAMB being the acceptable sacrifice. I.e The Lamb of God. And there is also the proto blood sacrifice element, that Abel followed God’s example of blood sacrifice to cover sin implicit in Genesis 3:21 where the sacrifice of animals was required to cover Adam and Eve’s ‘shame’/nakedness. God confirming that sin would ultimately be dealt with by the shedding of blood alone, not by the labour/sweat/toil of man.
Hey, so I'm well aware that self-plugs in the comment section can be annoying, so I apologize in advance, but my entire 10 part blog series discusses at length the effect of the Cain and Abel story. I think a lot of people would get value out of the Adrian Jay Blog for that reason. It's free on Substack
I wonder if this also has something to do with how dwarfs came about in Norse mythology. They were said to be born from the maggots that infested the corpse of the giant Ymir. Ymir's death was the catalyst for the creation of the world and the race of dwarves. His body was used to create the land, the oceans, and the sky, and his maggots were transformed into dwarves. They were said to live in underground dwellings and are a race of beings who are skilled craftsmen and smiths.
I think this has more to do with the change in culture from a hunter gather to farming society. Farming would also allow for cities and time for technology. But it is ultimately the shepherd the hunter and gather that over time reminds people the way the truth the life.
Religions are meta-narratives, not intended to explain the physical universe, but to describe the real-world structures of universal patterns and axioms (“Truths”) that can be leveraged by consciousness, volition and spirit in our creations to sustainably achieve greatness. Religions emerged together with civilization as an anthropological consequence of the transition of our species from subconsciously guided beings to beings with conscious volition, which is what genesis describes. The eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, or the elegance of a capability of judgement increased intelligence, but also initiated a counterintuitive evolutionary quest for inner peace through procreation and toil. The genesis pattern is a continually recurring event in the history of the increasingly conscious species.
From the animal, I'd say the bones and the skin are the parts most likely used as building blocks for some form of technological items, like for instance clothing and tools.
I also see a parallel with the left and the right hemispheres of the brain, the left hemisphere being "in charge" of instruments, seeing the whole in parts, the particular and artificial, sequential (tit for tat) the map rather than the territory, language, grasping and manipulating, etc, and the right hemisphere attending to the whole, the father, humility (tends to be more melancholic but realistic, sees living beings, empathatic, emotional, etc. Looking at it from this perspective, whatever the left hemisphere sacrifices, it is incapable of offering an appropriate sacrifice simply because of its inability to appreciate what is outside of its scope. Anger and resentment are also emotions attributed to the left hemisphere, so even the response to the denial of God's blessing is predictable. I'm reading The Master And His Emissary by McGilchrist and these ideas came up. 🙏🏼
2bits for the conversation: God made the first sacrifice when he killed the animal and made garments of skin for Adam and Eve. People were still not allowed at this time to eat meat. Abel kept flocks which had little purpose other than to be killed to make more garments of skin and perhaps to sacrifice to God. Abel in this way is acting as a prefigured high priest of sorts. Abel's actions were an act of remembrance/echoing of the promises of God (praise/worship) and a continuing on the tradition that acknowledged the garments of skin as the only thing given by God for an acceptable covering until the promised seed would crush the serpent. Cain worked the soil for food, providing sustenance for the body. There is some implication that everyone thought he would be the promised seed. So in an act of self-naming of sorts he offered the fruit of his labor (his salvific work). His sacrifice while a seemingly good thing in his eyes was not pleasing to God because it did not acknowledge the placeholder of the garments of skin as covering/salvation/life that God had established. Instead of repenting of this error (which God called him to do) he became bitter and vengeful and committed the first act of human sacrifice, proving to be of the seed of the serpent instead of the seed to defeat the serpent.
Hi Jonathan, I always love your videos. I had a question I’ve always wondered about this part. If Cain did wrong and by the killing of his brother put a course in himself. Why didn’t God allowed for anyone to kill him?
You'd enjoy the richness of Joyce's pun in Finnegans Wake: "cain enabler" On another note, are you aware of the positive role of Cain in Jewish tradition? It goes like this. What did Jesus teach? "The doctrine of repentance for the remission of sins." Scripturally, Cain is the very first person in the entire Tanakh to repent ("my punishment etc.") . Thus his being the founder of urbanism and the progenitor of artists and crafstmen is not as many think a condemnation of urban life but it is rather a lesson about the infinity of the Father's mercy.
One sad, but quick note, is that images don't always capture the full picture (event). The problem becomes, and is obvious, that an image (the art) captures a moment in an event and can skew the event. For example, we say God rejected Cain, rather than saying God rejected Cain's sacrifice. The image captures the rejection but fails to capture God's mercy. In other words, Cain knew the right way to sacrifice but chose "I did it my way." Also, why do we say God rejected Cain more time than say God corrected Cain? If I say to the reader "I reject you" what emotions do you feel verses "You can do this right way"? Which of the two did you find yourself leaning towards? Ah, "I reject you" has fire of anger in it and the sweet thought of revenge can cause the heart to fall from grace. As God deals with sin, we see a real image of God's humble personality appear. First God is the Creator and is a King (King of glory), someone that could have easily sent an angelic being to talk with Cain. When's the last time a CEO came to fix a problem while on the lavish yacht in the Mediterranean? Do they not send a manager or a manager over managers to address an issue. Therefore these images, sadly, cannot show God correcting and call Cain back to doing what is right, only the cold left shoulder...which in truth will be what happens at the last judgment to all who sacrifice to God of their own way and not God's way of work to show forth faith--the more perfect sacrifice.
Adam "knew" Eve about the time of the spring equinox (March 25), at the very moment when the Virgin Mary " was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost," or March wind. This would indicate that Cain's birth occurred at the winter solstice, and so was coincident with the birth of Jesus Christ. Very soon, however, it is said, "Eve again bare his brother Abel" (Gen. 4:2). Did Eve bear Abel a second time? The language certainly indicates this. The Hebrew says she added to her bearing his brother Abel; and thus, we may suppose Cain and Abel were twins, like Esau and Jacob. Esau and Jacob wrestled while in the womb. Esau (winter) being six months older than Jacob (summer) was the tough guy. Their mother, the Virgo constellation, had a touch time with her pregnancies. "Cain," it is said (Gen. 4:2), "was a tiller of the ground." The Hebrew says he was an obed, i.e., a slave of the ground (Adam). Cain is, literally, a lance; an instrument used in hunting in winter, and by metonymy, is winter itself. No; Cain was not a tiller of the ground; but like all savages, he was a slave, and subject to all the hardships and inconveniences of savage life. What kind of a "tiller of the ground" could he be whose labors were decreed by the Almighty to go unrewarded - unto whom it was decreed that when he tilled it, the ground "shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength"
(Gen.4:12), but only "thorns and thistles" (Gen. 3.18)? 'Tis true, in Gen. 3. 19, Adam is told he shall " eat his bread in the sweat of his brow;" but "lehem" here translated " bread," means food in general - such as the savage usually gets, and that too by the sweat of his face. Abel means the same as Eve, i.e., breath, life or summer. Thus. we find Cain and Abel are the true offspring of Adam and Eve; the same exactly as one year is the offspring of the preceding year. Hence, too, we find that this myth is but a rehash of that of Adam and Eve. "In process of time," reads our false version, "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground, etc." (Gen. 4:3). "At the end of his days" is the true rendering, i.e., at the end of winter, on the night before "the Beginning" of the New Year, which was at the vernal equinox. At the end of winter, then, " Cain brought of the fruit of the ground" - "thorns also and thistles," i.e., the dreary and desolate earth - as an offering unto the Lord (summer). "And Abel, he also, brought of the first-born of his flock," i.e., Aries, the first of the summer constellations. Thus, we see the two brothers, winter and summer, met at the spring equinox. "The Lord had respect unto Abel and his offering" (Gen. 4:4). Of course; and the Lord (the summer Sun) was right, for who has not respect for the seven fruitful months of summer (Abel) over which the Lord presided, and their rich and precious gifts ‘(“But unto Cain and his offering (the dreary and desolate earth), he had not respect." No wonder. The Lord-God had previously (Gen. 3. 18) cursed the ground so that when Cain tilled it, it would bring forth "thorns and thistles." And hence, I think, none of us would disapprove of the Lord's preference. "So, Cain was wroth, and his countenance fell," i.e., winter returned, when the surface of the earth was turned from the Sun, the heavens were overcast with clouds and the winds blew cold.
I have to profer the question/idea that perhaps, just perhaps, we are reading ideas and notions into these ancient stories that aren't there. Or, put another way, if there are clear ideas embedded into these ancient stories when is it time to stop 'wringing' every last drop - every analogy - out of these accounts ? We have to be wary that we are not acting in such a way simply in order to feel we are being both clever and discerning. Its actually a serious question: we should be clear about what is obvious and what is more 'blurred'.
2:12 Eve gave birth to 2 sons “Am I my brothers keeper?” “I shall be a fugitive…” - downward spiral 6:59 Blessing Right Hand 10:06 3 Pagan Myths in the frame of Adam and Eve • Romulus & Remus, 2 brothers found a city, Rome. Brother kills Brother • Prometheus & Zeus, Improper Sacrifice, Stolen Fire, Cycle of Passions • Hephaestus - breaks rule, improper sacrifice, thrown off Paradise into Hades 17:03 Bad Offerings, Trying To Trick Artificial, Fake, Lesser Presumptive 23:13 Transgression 25:52 Lamech - became old and blind - kills 2 men, his ancestor and his son.
Probably its a bit tediuos to point that out but it was Remus who assaults Romulus and the latter defends himself. That city limit was later called Pomerium and crossing it wearing arms was punished by death. Therefore Rome became demilitarized zone unlike any other etruscan or latin city arround thus gradually devoiding politics of violence, which eventually sew the seeds of republic in Rome. Saint Augustin belived Roman republic was at least partially divine. In the context of Abel and Cain story i don't see a way how murder could lay foundation of anything divine or prosperous in any regard. Anyways Romulus and Remus story is actually an inverted version of biblical story. The whole conflict was about what should be foundational - commerce (proximity to water (Tiber river) - Aventine hill - Remus point) or military prowess (defsnsible Capitoline hill - Romuulus point). Not only Romulus did not feel any remorse, roman myth says he ascended to divine under the name of Quirin (that very Q in SPQR by the way) and that he didnt actually die. It is esespecially relevant because Quirin cult was foundational to republics downfall - Caesar erected temples to Quirin and emphasised deification of Roman foundation as divine monarchy
Central to what you bring up on founding murders is René Girard's 'i see satan fall like lightning' - scapegoating, mimetic violence, the creation of myths by collective violence
@@Sokofeather well what I meant was that foundation of cities and technological progress is not inherently evil. After all the epicenter of tech progress and civility at the time was the very city found by fratricide and that very center later became the hallmark of original Christianity. Reducing mythology for purposes of fiting a cross cultural patterns may bring ill consequences. Likewise branding all technology as exclusively evil (direction opposite to communion) we may just engage in escapism out of fear. Which is bad i guess. Well I am a coder and it is increasingly difficult to balance Orthodox Christianity and my profession, and I believe the whole hellscape of modern platforms may be just that consequence of Christian withdrawal from the field. JP take on the subject suggests we are at leastbpartially responsible for this - theres no need in participation in craft as long as you condemn it. Even if it is essential to culture and information transmission
I don't know much about these stories but I think anyone that doesn't want arms in the city is someone that wants absolute control of the population. People generally don't hurt each other because most are filled with love, so weapons are a moot point I think. One would think Remus had every right to possess arms and to not let a selfish psychopath control him, and everyone and everything around him. It's usually governments that want to outlaw weapons because they don't want to be deposed. Regular people are chill. That's a red flag for me right away. Where did city dwellers keep their hunting weapons? Or did they just eat the slave diet of grains and sugar like modern times? I suppose they didn't use refined sugar to enslave people through addiction, but they probably used fruit. I don't know the whole story, but I know there's evil in the world, so if someone prevents you from having weapons, that's not cool at all, and is very telling of someone's intentions.
@@daxmoore2060 well that is a modern take on arms. It is sound in a world where bearing arms is considered almost blasphemous. In the times of Rome foundation literally anyone bore arms and bloodshed was omnipresent. Bearing arms in the republic was a normal thing, the point of pomerium arms prohibition was to banish arms and lethal methods as a plausible way to solve political disputes. When romans started violating pomerium they lost their republic and descended to tyrany and violence became business as usual for a long time
@@igchek In another video, Pageau brings out the point that the final destination of mankind is a Huge Golden City with a garden inside. Cain and Abel resolved, Rome and the Church resolved, nature and technology resolved by Christ being the center.
Jonathan, I was wondering how Lamech's wanting to be avengend seventy times seven is related to Peter's question of how much to forgive my brother and Jesus's reply of the Forgiving Seventy times seven your brothers sin and then Jesus telling the parable of the the unforgiving servant. I know that Jesus is trying to flush out something from the old testament and maybe related to Cain's family and how they dealt with brothers etc. Is this part of the left and right comparison?
Hi Mr.Jonathan Pageau, I have a few questions, if you can answer them, it would be great. How are you? I wanted to know, what did you think of the conversation you assisted by your presence with Dr.Peterson and the muslims in UK.? Will you assist to more ? Also, do you know what Jordan peterson ment in the end of the conversation when he answer about the evidences question? He said he didn't know what to do with the fact that he has a large following of christians and jews. Is it that he is interested in Islam but is afraid of the consequences that it might have with his audience ? He also said that the evidence he is more interested in are how much someone shines, I did not get that. Thanks.
Hi. I think Jordan is trying to convey the message that he doesnt need to subscribe( for a lack of a better word) to Islam, because Christianity is already fulfilling all the principles of Islam. The And to say one is more(better) than the other can only be proven by how it manifests itself in reality(which ever ones light shines brightest)
@@chereecannon3398 The point the muslim gentleman was making is that he has logical and empirical evidences for the case of islam. So I did not get why dr.Peterson closed the door for that. Maybe Dr.Peterson is more interested in the moral side of religions. But, even then. I think the muslim lad should have addapted his discussions to his interlocutor. Maybe if he started by establishing the fundamental basics of the islamic moral system and build up in abstraction until he arrives to God or Allah, it would have bean more compelling for Dr peterson. But even then he needed to follow the way the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him conveyed the message of islam. He was known to be a "walking coran". Mohammed Hijab lack of wisdom here, clearly didn't shine. He has the books but still needs the wisdom. Anyway, have a nice day brother or sister.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful Allah Glory to him said: Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31- That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32- Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
Osiris also became Noah. Adam "knew" Eve about the time of the spring equinox (March 25), at the very moment when the Virgin Mary " was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost," or March wind. This would indicate that Cain's birth occurred at the winter solstice, and so was coincident with the birth of Jesus Christ. Very soon, however, it is said, "Eve again bare his brother Abel" (Gen. 4:2). Did Eve bear Abel a second time? The language certainly indicates this. The Hebrew says she added to her bearing his brother Abel; and thus, we may suppose Cain and Abel were twins, like Esau and Jacob. Esau and Jacob wrestled while in the womb. Esau (winter) being six months older than Jacob (summer) was the tough guy. Their mother, the Virgo constellation, had a touch time with her pregnancies. "Cain," it is said (Gen. 4:2), "was a tiller of the ground." The Hebrew says he was an obed, i.e., a slave of the ground (Adam). Cain is, literally, a lance; an instrument used in hunting in winter, and by metonymy, is winter itself. No; Cain was not a tiller of the ground; but like all savages, he was a slave, and subject to all the hardships and inconveniences of savage life. What kind of a "tiller of the ground" could he be whose labors were decreed by the Almighty to go unrewarded - unto whom it was decreed that when he tilled it, the ground "shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength"
(Gen.4:12), but only "thorns and thistles" (Gen. 3.18)? 'Tis true, in Gen. 3. 19, Adam is told he shall " eat his bread in the sweat of his brow;" but "lehem" here translated " bread," means food in general - such as the savage usually gets, and that too by the sweat of his face. Abel means the same as Eve, i.e., breath, life or summer. Thus. we find Cain and Abel are the true offspring of Adam and Eve; the same exactly as one year is the offspring of the preceding year. Hence, too, we find that this myth is but a rehash of that of Adam and Eve. "In process of time," reads our false version, "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground, etc." (Gen. 4:3). "At the end of his days" is the true rendering, i.e., at the end of winter, on the night before "the Beginning" of the New Year, which was at the vernal equinox. At the end of winter, then, " Cain brought of the fruit of the ground" - "thorns also and thistles," i.e., the dreary and desolate earth - as an offering unto the Lord (summer). "And Abel, he also, brought of the first-born of his flock," i.e., Aries, the first of the summer constellations. Thus, we see the two brothers, winter and summer, met at the spring equinox. "The Lord had respect unto Abel and his offering" (Gen. 4:4). Of course; and the Lord (the summer Sun) was right, for who has not respect for the seven fruitful months of summer (Abel) over which the Lord presided, and their rich and precious gifts ‘(“But unto Cain and his offering (the dreary and desolate earth), he had not respect." No wonder. The Lord-God had previously (Gen. 3. 18) cursed the ground so that when Cain tilled it, it would bring forth "thorns and thistles." And hence, I think, none of us would disapprove of the Lord's preference. "So, Cain was wroth, and his countenance fell," i.e., winter returned, when the surface of the earth was turned from the Sun, the heavens were overcast with clouds and the winds blew cold.
Cain and Abel are representations of fruit yielded from the consummation of the tree of knowledge , fruit of the material world. opposed to fruit of the spirit - apple of the minds eye v apple of the heart (when mind and soul are one in the heart of God). Eve consuming the “apple of the eye”, which represent thoughts borne of the phenomenal screen of the mind, divided in its nature, represents the mind grasping at the fruit which yields division. When sown in Adam, the soul, yields a tree perpetuating fruit of both good and evil - Cain and Abel who end up self annihilating each other - destruction of the false self which is unsustainable - to live a lie in a life filled with doubt. Thus fruit borne of the mind, lacking contemplation with its true consort, loses the connection to God- and this is a conception that leads to pain in its birthing and development . Seth represents a restoration to the truth- the object and goal and our “true love” and path in life - which seeds the tree of life within, the kingdom of heaven , where one finds fulfillment , contentment and sanctuary, yielding fruit of the spirit that sustains life to develop our highest selves. Adam and Eve putting on animal skins represent a yielding to their animal sensory selves, cleaved onto the material world, rather than the world of the God’s spirit. The death of Abel is a kind of dark night of the soul, where one has the free will of choice in the subsequent trajectories - the lineage of Cain and the lineage of Seth are compared thus in subsequent stories, echoed again in stories like Esau and Jacob (one clothed in animal skin vs one in true garments)
Just my thoughts on the value of the sacrifices. Meat and fat from sheep is by far superior nutrition than fruit. Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock, so it would be the first to reach harvest maturity, so it would be the most valuable. Cain brought the fruit of the ground. My thought reading this is that he brought fruit that had already fallen to the ground and is therefore basically just fertilizer for the tree and not the most carefully selected fruit that he picked, sort of like Prometheus bringing that which he would have thrown out anyways rather than the prime valuable resource.
To some degree we all have a little Cain inside of us. Those patterns will manifest in different ways. The bright side is that we also have a little Abel inside of us too, and it is that side that the Holy Spirit wants to make more manifest. The fact that you are awake to it is a good sign and it means the Spirit is at work shaping you into the Image of Christ…If we are awake to it. 2 Corinthians 3:18: “But we all, with uncovered face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
Celebrate that awareness! No one can change what they are un aware of. The desire to heal in the recognition it comes not from your own thinking (blaming), is to abide with and through, instead of reacting FROM the pattern. Awareness is transformative. So let doing, wait on a true movement or peace from which to be whole in. But of course 'do' whatever serves the condition for holding such a focus, such as centres and grounds or connects at the heart. But that is not 'problem solving' so much as creating space for perspective to rise. I offer this as invitation, not any presumptions as to 'should'.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful Allah Glory to him said: Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31- That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32- Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
The conscious mind is masculine (objective thinking) (false self) ego mind. The subconscious is feminine (emotion, feelings). The conscious is Adam, and the subconscious is Eve. They are separated within us. The vail between them is the flaming sword at the entrance to the garden of Eden. We can not become whole and return to paradise without the unity of the two (the lifting of the vail). The discovery and understanding of the true self (the discernment of thoughts) the rejection of the ego self removes the separation and brings us back into paradise. All of the stories are about each of us then and now. It's all happening within us right now.
I think of Abel's burnt offering (cooking?) of the lamb to be a representation of having the strength to necessarily kill an animal to fulfill natural instinct for survival. Reliance on plant vegetation as a substitute for meat is convenient yet in conflict with our true dietary needs, and makes us weaker and more fragile, more easily manipulated and bound by impulses. Think of why the elites promote veganism! Cain's offering also represents how the early developments of technology in the form of farming crops was an attempt to supplement what is already available in nature to stockpile more, which is fundamentally what the foundation of power structures are essentially about - protecting that surplus of goods that we have created and to pursue endless greed for ever more. As we can see today, the greater and greater development of technologies has made us passive to survival and domesticated and enslaved by those who control the resources that we become dependent on. This is not only limited to farming of crops, of course; animal husbandry has been perverted by these forces, to cause an unnecessary life of suffering for many animals (we have pushed it to the point of far removing animals from a respectful existence, even to the extent of attaching pipes on each end for feeding and waste removal, as if they are were merely an organ in a larger machine, all in the name of feeding this never satisfied lust for greater profit and power).
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I wonder what you think about John Steinbeck's East of Eden and his interpretation of the C-pattern and the A-pattern
while Reading through Genesis this evening I came away with some curious ideas. In the story of Cain and Abel, Abel gives a pleasing sacrifice To God of meat and fat. I understand that one way the ancients sacrificed was by burning, sending the smoke into heaven. I also see an animal as a singular expression of the whole creation. While Cane offers just some of his abundance of agricultural products. In God's eyes Cains's sacrifice is not a sacrifice at all. Instead of trying to be better, Cain calls his brother into the field and Murders Able. Thus, watering his own field with the blood of his brother...signifying the full decent of Man. Able sacrifice Is toward Heaven. Cain's sacrifice is truely the blood of his brother to soak the earth. With lots in between...we get to Noah ,who is in the line of Seth, but presumably his wife is from the line of Cain. What came to me while Reading today was the idea that the flood waters of Noah is the same as the blood of Able, that so marred that rocky waste. By Noah building An alter for burnt Offerings...He is the First person to make a proper/pleasing sacrifice To God...once again offering up to heaven ...reversing the blood of Abel that soaked the Earth.
I like Steiner's take on Cain and Abel better. Abel was subservient to the demiurge, symbolized in sacrifice, relying on said demiurge. Cain relied on himself, and tilled the earth. The demiurge, being jealous and insecure, cursed Cain Edit: you're connecting dots that aren't there; Cain didn't try to trick the demiurge as Prometheus tried to. Romulus and Remus is also a stretch. Yes, some of humanity views the world in dichotomies and polarities , hence the frequency that they're portrayed in myths, but that's not every civilization.
Except both Cain and Abel willingly sacrifice to God in the story. I also don't know why you're looking for a gnostic interpretation here, you obviously will not find it.
I don't think it matters where one came from, only how they act. Of course they own google and TH-cam so the truth won't be making the mainstream anytime soon.
Cain's sacrifice is more symbolic, more "advanced": it's a substitution of grain for animal, as animal was a substitute for human. If, as seems to be the case, animal and human sacrifice is the more primitive, I wonder if Cain's sacrifice is refused precisely because it is "overreaching", much the same way one can say that Adam and Eve "overreach" when they take what was not yet given (wisdom, or "knowledge of good and evil"). The "origin of sin" seems to be that grasping, overreaching and taking what is not (yet) given - because it is given later in the story: to Solomon, who ASKED, rather than TOOK, and was indeed GIVEN what he (at the age of twelve, i.e. no longer a child but and adult) is ready to receive. Cain's problem is that he wants what he can't have: God's blessing. And why does God withhold it? Because Cain, the founder of civilisation, is not ready for something as advance as symbolic sacrifice, namely grain as a substitute for animal, which is a substitute for human sacrifice. The end result is that Cain reverts all the way back to the most "primitive" sacrifice: he kills his brother. But instead of celebrating this as a "sacrifice" (which is precisely what is done with the slaying of Remus by his brother Romulus) the Bible calls it murder: the ultimate sin against one's brother. Interestingly, Christ uses grain-become-bread to anticipate his own sacrifice of himself as the "lamb of God": human, animal and symbolic merge in Eucharist.
Suddenly I saw a possible connection between God's declaration of sevenfold punishment on the one who kills Cain and Jesus saying "He who is without sin cast the first stone."..... so anybody who casts the first stone would have the sin of self-righteousness, and whoever kills Cain would commit the same sin of self-righteousness. Does this make sense? Do I see it correctly? The pattern of "weakness" "trickery/falseness" connecting to envy and to technology is quite striking in these stories. Thank you, Jonathan!
"if you kill your (metaphorical) brother, you will be cursed to have people kill you", we call this God's will but taken metaphorically it could mean that once people know you're a murderer they now have the dilemma of letting a dangerous person continue living.
Seems like common knowledge but Lord of the Flies has them accidentally kill multiple people and each time they're just like "now what?" BIG NOTE The murderers aren't punished according to God's will and it has exponential consequences until the kids are literally saved by God again.
"but the domino effect is what caused them to be saved!" The real ending would have them burn the island down (scorched earth metaphor) unable to continue living there but that's just my head canon
Cains sacrifice was Abel. He was his brothers keeper and was supposed to be a good shepard to him like Abel was to his sheep, but he became envious and was too ignorant to see Gods blessing was being an older brother.
I can't help but think of Cain's offering coming from the ground God cursed because of Adam. Also, God takes Cain's first born Enoch eventually anyway. He was given a mark or divine protection from premature death and damnation was never prescribed to him yet many times later in the New Test, this seems to contradict this idea.
I was opened to the territory, to then find an articulation and path of reintegration in which an inner discernment recognises pattern within, that are reflected without and which persist as a limiting or differentiating movement until brought to awareness. Why say this? Because the recognition is not an intellectual framework built like a city but a garden that grows with as a result of letting in what was killed or denied by the image-led consciousness or ego-centric identity set in lack, disconnection, rejection, abandonment and the driven need to 'survive' as a masked and distanced false witness, in a realm of artifice raised over the simple truth given and received as one. The basis for a deeper understanding is in ask and it shall be given - sow and reap or knock and be answered. If we seek for GETTING, we seek where we cannot find because a lack of worth cannot call to worth, but a release of self-judgement can and does allow the Holy Spirit to move through us as both prayer or true desire & fulfilment. I see the Prodigal Son as a simplified Prometheus - where the drama of a mis-taken inheritance is not given focus excepting it delivers to wretched and desolate isolation as the bottoming out of an addiction (to external or image-based reality) in willingness to be even a servant in my father's house (without any claim for myself), the recognition of the the beloved son is the restatement of a true Inherence as the gift of the Holy Spirit or healing of the 'separation of a split mind - that Cain and Abel represent. The masking over by an ingenuity of artifice runs as a second nature set over the first as a source of curse and revisiting of trauma. All things go forth and multiply each according to their kind, so what then of self-illusions given power or priority over feared truth? Excepting this: nothing can be raised to any power without true increase, and a multiplying of lies is no more true than it first cover story. So no matter how many steps away we have lived, we are never more than one step from truth. Bottoming out is where we can no longer find any way to not look upon what we have made by wish, fear and belief set in guilt, to find already undone.
16:33, Why God refuses Cain's sacrifice: may be because the product of the earth it's the product of a sedentary life in opposition to Abel's lamb, which is associated with a nomadic life. So, I believe the reason of this refusal is indeed important. Cain then funds his city, seems like this kind of settlement is mankind's damnation, may be?
Would you guys just open a University already? Or a Book store at least? Also, I would love for you to do a symbiotic break down of a Saints Life. Forgive me for being so demanding. Bishop Neophytos said he would give people Lives of Saints before even reading the Gospel. I am just concerned that these talks can leave people merely thinking a lot. But there is something existential to be embodied here. Forgive me. I know you are a great bridge to the Truth Mr. Pageau. Saint Christopher would be proud. Oh wait a minute… You did do a break down of the life of Saint Christopher didn’t you? Forgive me! But maybe do a modern Saint! Saint John Maximovich, Saint Raphael of Brooklyn, Saint Paisios the Athonite, Saint Iakovos of Evia, Saint Nektarios of Aegina, Or perhaps Saint Silouan the Athonite! Forgive me.
can anybody comment on the symbolism of veganism, how it relates to cain, and insufficient sacrifice being rejected. Do you know any vegans who possess the spirit of cain?
also, workaholics may possess the spirit of cain. They are putting those extra hours in the wage cage, but it is "improper sacrifice" as it disrespect the "cosmic order" (insert your preferred term) (?)
I see the Greek Prometheus as the Semitic Abraham and his Covenant with God, who says, My Covenant shall be between me and thee, or that is, pro-me-thee-us, in concerns of the seed of Abraham. The sacrifice of skin and bones can be connected to Jacob’s putting a skin on his arm when he pretends to be Esau. While the bones and skin together become Ezekiel’s vision of the valley of bones which rise up geo-politically in the epical compass of each New World, like the bones of Joseph taken up by the Hebrews in Egypt, and flesh coming upon them, as well as the breath of generation at such finally universal heights.
Cain brought the fruit of the ground and Abel brought, ..., and fat, as a carnivore I can see why God favored the offering of fat and not fruit. Seems right to me, a mere man.
I think its also similar to the relationship of jesus and satan. Jesus even becomes a sacrifice that lucifer would never do for God or anyone. I also see some similarity with Esau and Jacob, but Esau was somewhat taken care of after he sold his birth right for some soup. Not valuing what God gave him like Satan not valuing his place he threw away what he had.
I’ve really missed this kind of Jonathan Pageau content.
I really miss Universal History!
@@chanting_germ. forreal, not having to pretend that jesus is a superior hypothesis or a convenient belief effective for a healthy psyche really allows deep analysis into what scripture can tell us. I appreciate the ecumenism as far as that goes, but it really compromises the ability to go deep into what matters because one is forced to stay at surface level commonalities
Miss?? This all he puts out is gems 💎 stop looking for your own ideologues through a lense to look more virtues😤
🙂
Me too
This was quite amazing, thank you for this video. I can see the narrative patterns playing out and being refined over time in a way that was not clear before. Wonderful justification for the Bible for sure. This bit about the liver being associated with the passions and technology connecting to that is a real game changer for me. Attention divided and taken over by technology, the parasitic nature of this process, the idea of the fall as a cycle, it is all revealed (poorly) in the older stories and made more clear in tradition. This really backs up my thesis that stories are implementations, you have many good stories and those reveal narrative patterns, those narrative patterns reveal archetypes. Wonderful and too deep to digest so quickly. Thanks again!
Great stuff, I would love to see more like this. The bible is so condensed, seeing the related icons and parallel stories that fill in some of the details _really_ helps me get my mind around it and feel it more intuitively.
I always wondered about the nature of god in the Cain and Abel story, ever since I first heard it. The way I first heard this story, God showed Cain mercy by "marking" him so that he would not be killed by others. What got me wondering, even if it might be of no consequence, is the fact that right before Gods mark, Cain expresses that his burden is "too much for him to bear", "too much" suggesting he'd rather actually be dead. Gods mark would then actually not be mercy but the opposite, he'd be making sure Cain doesn't get killed and has to live with himself.
I think if you read it carefully Cain is referring to the fact that he must now live in constant fear and hiding from those who would avenge Abel and kill him as too much to bare. The mark is a mercy for it stops people from killing him. so yes it was a mercy.
a more interesting question was mercy the right answer cause only a few generations later the earth is so corrupt with evil that God must kill every one except Noah and his family with the cataclysm. perhaps if God killed Cain then there would have never been a flood? after the flood God allows for the death penalty
You have to read the whole story. Not go by one or two verses. God gives His mark after Cain expressed concern about being killed after being sent away. That's not wishing to die.
Very interesting. In this context, the chaining to the rock and not being able to live out his passions and emotions, or to exercise free will, seems to be the harsher part of the punishment. I figured being chained all day and waiting for an eagle to eat your liver would be stressful, anxiety inducing, etc, and the act itself would of course be terrifying and painful, but I never considered the torture of him having deep desires, and passions that will never be fulfilled. I only considered the fear aspect.
A thought that occured to me after watching this is maybe Zeus was being compassionate in some way by having the eagle eat Prometheus' liver, giving him a moment to finally relax and be ok instead of burning up inside. Obviously a human would be dead instantly if their liver was eaten, but Prometheus lives and his grows back daily. Sure it's physically painful, but the trade off would be a peaceful mind and soul energy. I'm thinking of what I've learned about some monks that try to silence their minds, and to minimize their desires by doing rituals, meditating etc. When one has a desire or is passionate about something, they also have unrest until the desire realized and the passion is fulfilled or lived out.
I typed this as it came to me, and didn't think it through much, so maybe I'm off base, but maybe someone else has an opinion or something to add? Symbolically, the cycle of addiction came to mind.
I also considered that the eagle might have been eating Prometheus's anger, sdness or worry, all of which are known (in Chinese medicine) to be stored in or associated with the liver.
I think that the work of Cain and Abel is significant. Able participates/works in the order that God has already created, he has authority over the animals. Whereas Cain is tilling the soil, changing the land. He is solving the problem of being by going around it. Instead of working with what beings already exist, change the structure of the land to change what beings you have to work with.
I think this idea of going around the problem and modifying the way in which we participate in reality is the root of technology.
Brilliantly articulated my friend. I was trying to piece it together in my mind and you hit the nail on the head.
Ok, just wondering about the rest of that thread....
What are you trying to convey? Just the definition of technology? Are you trying to say something about the goodness of technology?
IIRC, Jonathan describes Adam and Eve being furnished animal skins to cover themselves after the fall as the beginning of technology. I'm just wondering how what you said would tie into that, or if your line of thought leads to a different understanding.
Cain had to change the land after the curse of work was put upon Adam by God
I'm pulling in some of the meaning around land as the structure or order of a place as well as that from which beings emerge. Both Cain and Abel are faced with the problem of the fall and the problem of work. One works within the structure that already exists and the other tries to change the structure, both solve the problem and both make sacrifice but one receives blessing and the other receives curse.
From there Cain repeats the same logic, instead of accepting being as it was presented to him he attempts to change the nature of reality by giving the curse to Abel and killing him.
Now we all live by modifying the structure of reality instead of accepting the order that we have been given.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
Allah Glory to him said:
Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31-
That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32-
Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
Great video Jonathan, I like the fact that you are always going, "...look look look this is how you look at the story to see what the through line is, let's pay attention to why it's talking like this".
What a timing, i was searching in your channel looking for a commentary on that story.
So stoked about this one. I've been wanting to dive into Cain & Able and no better teacher to do it with. #blessed
In Hebrew it literally says "servant of the ground" and later God tells Cain "you rule in him (sin)", this adds to the "passion" notion even more
The mention of the liver as seat of the passions reminded me of how Dostoevsky's Underground Man complains of a problem with his liver.
Hey Jonathan. I was wondering if you ever considered whether or not there is a point in which this web of symbolism just becomes TOO much for the average person?
Maybe you could do a video about the limits of our own comprehension, and when it might be best to step back. Perhaps there is a point in which we dive so deep it starts to become more of a hinderance to understand the average human’s life. Perhaps it can turn into something like when conspiracy theorists start digging so deep down they become almost detached from the reality of their actual personal lives.
Just a thought, loved this video by the way 👍
If we become as a child in a new language or world that we abide with as a felt resonance, trust or intuitive guidance, then something will come through because we are not seeking to put new wine into old thinking habits. be willing to not know rather than seeking to run ahead. Along the way of trying to understand, we burn out or break the self-confidence of a presumption to know in our own right and become willing to stand under. the idea we are being lied to is not wrong, but is given almost exclusive focus as Them, rather than thinking that I participate in as a social masking and distancing that can be seen as conspiring to discard our Spirit or Soul so as to run each our own version of a collectivised and normalised denial, in which pain of isolation and conflict can be rendered unconscious or perceived as at the hand of others so as to drive retribution.
You are completely right in the integration of spiritual learning to our daily life. That is the way in which we recognise being on track as both giving and receiving in truth. Which comes back to Cain becoming resentfully focussed on his brother as a source of problem - and false 'solution' instead of realigning his own receiving as a true basis to give from.
the key is to have something positive you are constantly building
you can cast a very wide net, then sort through it and take what is useful to test, extend, or otherwise improve that structure you are building
if you're purely negative and sceptical, like most conspiracy theory stuff is, then you can very easily deconstruct the rock you are standing on
another good test is that true symbolism is scalable --- it operates in extreme detail, but also on a simpler, almost perceptual level. If you are lost in this see of fragmented details, pull way back, focus on the things that scale, and burn the rest
What schizo conspiracy theory bothers you the most?
I think it boils down to perspective. I feel many people into conspiracy theories think they're doing something positive. It's a sacrifice, if you will. Many people shun them and look down upon them. They feel they're being lied to by the bad guys, and they want to do a service by learning the truth, no matter how dark it is, or how uncomfortable it makes them feel, because they want to share it so people to have free will. You can't have free will in a system of lies.
Just because something is dark, or uncomfortable, or gross, or sickening, etc, it doesn't mean it's negative, or that it's negative to learn about it. Sometimes it's needed. We all poop right? So does society, and so do governments, etc. It's part of life. Of course most people aren't going around all day talking about poop, because it's gross, and because of that it makes people uncomfortable. I'ts definitely not negative though. Could you imagine if we didn't do it? When the wind blows it may ruffle the feathers of a bird which is uncomfortable, but we obviously need wind for things to function properly here on Earth.
As individuals we also all tell lies. We generally don't spend the day talking about them either, and my opinion is that most of them are probably negative. Because of this it's important to know that just like individuals, collections of individuals like governments, corporations, etc, also are dishonest from time to time. To me, that's why conspiracy theorists exist. They feel that lies are negative so they want to flip it positive by finding truth. Lots of people would rather just take the comfort and peace of mind in not knowing. Some may consider that apathy though, to just go with the flow and believe anything, knowing there is evil in the world.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
Allah Glory to him said:
Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31-
That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32-
Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
I was looking at your previous discussion where you covered this the other day. Jonathan is always on the pulse 🎉
Thank you Jonathan for your precious program and I enjoy every minute of it ❤
The right hierarchy is the blessing given by God to Abel for his work, while the corrupted version of the hierarchy would be the one Cain tried to obtain through artifice. This is a lesson in humbleness, of "git gud" attitude instead of cheating. Yet, cheaters are most of the time the rulers in the world. That's why the unfair rich man breeds himself the revolutionary. That's the cycle of the passions.
Cain was mad because Abel pointed out that his power was less than God’s power. And Cain didn’t like not being seen as Powerful.
I've really enjoyed your insights. Always takes me awhile to let it sink in. I keep trying to figure out the left hand and right hand exchange. When god from his perspective uses his right hand , my assumption is because God has thus ordered the intelligence or wisdom from his left? This wisdom is ready to be given to able's left hand, Because Able was properly creating or intelligence gathering. When Cain does this he does not perform an act of order that is God's and the smoke backfires on him because he did not see (eyes burn) the problem in left to right movement of wisdom? And I assume because his sacrifice is expedient and not meaningful? To quickly selected and not accounting for all possibilities. Give something to god of man's toil, not mother nature's fruit? Idk
Great work Johnathan. And also saw you had your red crusader chain mail ready under your garments to defend Jordan during this Muslim talk. Admirable🙏
Fantastic! Please do more videos on these biblical stories.
Awesome. It's refreshing to hear perspective on ancient writings and myths in how they exist to portray transcendent metaphysical truths, and how the characters and their actions become vague as the truths emerge, knowing they are applicable for all people at all times.
It lets us realize just how evil this world really is as I feel we have surpassed the evil of those who existed pre-flood and how mankind left to his own devices is irredeemable in themselves. All of the stories of Genesis are manifesting themselves today in every way possible, to the point it's difficult to see what's real and not artificial. It's like mankind is bent on going to a place it knows not, at an increasing speed and recklessness as each former generation manipulates the latter in an effort to continue the cycle. The latter generations become fuel in an effort to extend the will of the former.
"transcendent metaphysical truths"
Are you for real??? Just like that, this is nonsense to the highest degree.
Did you say this with a straight face????
Those in power have ways of making whichever prophecy suits their cause fulfill itself.
The problem I've always had is why, then, heaven is represented as a city.
Also, great shirt. Looks really good on you.
And why the elements that become Christ's Body and Blood are very pointedly elements which were made by human hands.
Technology in the Christian tradition seems less like a bad thing so much as a powerful example of corruptio optima pessimi -- our ability to co-create is where God's image shines most clearly in us, so it creates the biggest disasters when it goes wrong. And since those who misuse it are inclined to form civilizations upon the murder of those who don't... that's a big problem.
The pagans could very well have just been anti-technology, though.
The City of God is the redeemed city, it’s is integrating what came from the fall without it’s falleness. In the Bible, after each fall, God tries to work with the products of what’s has fallen all the way up to Moses & the kingdom
I think this also plays back into Genesis as well. Tree of good/evil (knowledge) in tandem with the tree of life (wisdom). Knowledge becomes irrelevant without the ability to understand it's broader context and integrate it fully, as we have seen with the descent into technological reliance. Upon leaving the garden, humans begin to systematically add layers of confusion onto their true nature, leading them ever further from God and God's destiny for humankind
Are we given a hint in that Cain brought "the fruit" as his offering? It seems to me that Cain is attempting to fix things, he wants to end the curse. His Mother and Father stole the fruit, he is "returning" the "fruit" to God. Humanity was cursed and he was prophesized to "crush the head" of the serpent. Cain was fixing things. He was rational and wanted to appease God. He was transactional and mechanical in his thinking.
Abel appears to follow in his brother's footsteps, not in "fixing" things, but bringing something to God. Able is much more naïve and childlike than Cain. He brought the firstborn and the fat portions, things that Able himself valued and wanted to give to God. Before this God never said he desired that kind of offering. Able seems to intuitively and lovingly stumbled into God's favor. of course this makes Cain furious because Able is not doing it correctly. God want's "the fruit" not some dumb sheep. Cain had it systematized, theologized, and figured out, and yet, he got it wrong.... and simple Able, seemed to please God without thinking.
I think you nailed it my friend! 😍 I made a post today. Please read it. It was not written by me but I read it today from a group I'm in. It is not exactly like yours but the message is the same. Thanks for sharing!
Two things I also note about these stories. One (and you touched upon this) is how in Cain and Abel, Cain and his decendents are portrayed in a negative light where as Prometheus in particular is viewed in a positive sense.
Two is the parallel between how Lamech tells his followers how he will be avenged 70 times 7 and how Jesus tells Peter to forgive 70 times 7.
"Cain and his descendants"
I saw your comment and nearly pissed myself. Do you understand what you wrote here???
Where was the WOMAN from Cain's descendants?? Up to this point, Cain had only his brother and Eve did not make more kids so Cain could procreate!!!
So, before you make stupid comments, learn to observe what you are writing.
This is pure Eisegesis, making shit up and passing it as actual events and the gullible swallowing it up.
@@LookOutForNumberOne The video talks about the Cain story, so that does include his descendants. He specifically references the city Cain builds. The Cain story doesn't just stop at Cain killing Abel.
@@wmolders8160 What descendants when according to the fake story there where 4 humans, mother, father and two kids. It does not matter what else the story says about Cain, it is FAKE.
@@LookOutForNumberOne Oh, you are a troll, see ya.
@@wmolders8160 Oh, I see that you are gullible, see ya. You can't even imagine cain building a city on his OWN!!!! You have to be really that stupid, but I forgive you!!!
While watching this, I can't stop thinking on how Abel's sacrifice is a lamb - something soft, light, and material but that can become spiritual (union of heaven and earth - a balanced sacrifice), I mean, the smoke after the sacrifice.
It's like it's heavenly thing, a wise (from wisdom) thing.
I see Abel's way of life as devoted to "spiritual" way of life. I see him more like Jacob, the brother that stays at home, the scholar brother, aswell.
On the other hand, I see Cain offering an "earthly" sacrifice; rigid, dark and, one that instead of going up, can get rotten - could move even more down to earth, as Cain himself goes south.
So, he uses his "knowledge of good and evil" to do something unwise, and what it causes? The origin of civilisation. Something very unbalanced. Very dark, because that involves more "earth" than "heaven", more matter than wisdom. And it envolves matter in a trickst/cheating way. And maybe it even requires you to be a trickster first, than to fallow that path... and that maybe be related to Cain's resentment, that seems to have not abandoned him throughout "his story".
And that's very interesting that in one of the stories mentioned by Pageau, it leads to some kind of prison envolving passion. Just like in our, and in the past civilisations.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
Allah Glory to him said:
Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31-
That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32-
Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
@@aabdelaaliettaib2291 I found you comment very interesting.
@@TheCausticThinker th-cam.com/video/_v3MmUiE1lU/w-d-xo.html
@@TheCausticThinker Thank you Sir, Allah may guid us to his tright pathway
@@TheCausticThinker th-cam.com/video/h6NWfVWxqSM/w-d-xo.html
Is it Cain enable or does Cain disable?
Thanks for thst Jonathan . Awesome and informative.
J'aimerais beaucoup te voir discuter avec un musulman dans la veine d'un Cheikh Hamza Yusuf, je suis un Québécois musulman, mes parents sont venu du Monténégro, et je trouve que le rapport de la Chrétienneté orthdoxe avec celui de l'Islam sunnite est bien plus intéressant qu'à l'égard d'autres courants religieux s'y trouvant...
Merci, et bonne continuation pour ton excellent travail M. Pageau.
Salut sa va? Tu habites à Montréal?
Man i was just reading this story last night.
Cain offers the work of his own hands to God, leading him to become proud and resentful about Abel's sacrifice which is that of humbly offering to God a lamb which is a foreshadowing of Christ the lamb, the only offering which is pleasing to God.
Have you done a carving of Cain and Able? I would love to look after one. Keep up the great work, thanks.
They would be cloned childrens of Adam.
Seems to me Lamech kills his past and his future (as did Cronus), which means he cannot resurrect his father, nor can his son resurrect him, so he destines himself to remain in hell. Thoughts?
16:22 I think that the best presumption we can take if we take in consideration the entire bible is that Cain's sacrifice is rejected not because it was a bad sacrifice but because Cain himself was a bad person, Its not the only time God refuses a sacrifice in the bible and the other times God refused the sacrifice not because of the sacrifice itself but because the people doing the sacrifice
Does anyone know where the image at around the 9:42 mark comes from? I found it very powerful.
I just watched the conversation with you, Dr. Peterson and Mohammed Hijab.
I would describe myself as a Christian too, but I've always had some problems with some beliefs, like the original sin. I heard you mention that Orthodox Christianity rejects original sin, or at least as Mohammed Hijab described it, so I will research the subject more.
For some reason your interview touched me, you seem like a kind soul. God Bless.
Orthodox don't reject original sin, Jonathan was rejecting Hijab's definition/caricature of it. To be honest I've always found it one of the easiest doctrines to understand. Without a fallen humanity it would be difficult to understand why sin, suffering or evil exist in the first place despite man being made in the image of a loving God.
Definitely read further. Original sin is understood differently than it is in the West (Catholics and Protestants).
It’s a key difference and it helped me settle my issues with Christianity, I am catechumen in the Orthodox Church now.
God bless your efforts.
@@nikola9348 I'm no theology scholar, but if I understand Orthodox teaching correctly, we do not believe people share the guilt of Adam's original sin. Adam's sin does cause us to die, but our sin is our own and his sin is his own. In other words, a baby born who, God forbid, dies before baptism is not doomed because of Adam (but this was the Western idea for a long time, although Catholics have softened it). The child has not sinned because it doesn't have the ability to make a choice.
@crbox'TV you will find that Orthodoxy treats sin as a disease that needs healing. The church sees herself as a hospita to dispense medicine, not a courtroom to meet out punishments. The ascetic practices, the prayers, the hymns, the Liturgy, the communion of saints living and glorified are all there as medicine to help us become tranformed into the Body of Christ. The hard part is we have to travel the same path as our Lord, the path of the cross, putting to death step by step, like a ladder, our sinful nature. The good part is, we don't have to travel that path alone, because the whole Body from the beginning is still here to help us.
@@ButterBobBriggs you're right, we don't believe we inherit Adam's sin or culpability for it. What I meant to say is that we do believe in the fall and that we are living through the consequences of that fall, in a state of estrangement from our true nature and God. And that propensity for sin entered the world through that fall (this propensity is inherited). The Church gives us the means through which we are made whole and reunited to God.
For some reason, I always think of the Indo-European myth of Yemo and Manu is vaguely reminiscent of Cain and Able.
Indo -european is post war new speak for the word Aryan. The god loving, human loving ancestors of Christians, and the creators of modern civilization, always in a constant battle against the serpent seed of Cain. Shakespeare asks, what is a rose by any other name ? He was wise to know that names matter less than content or action. These stories are timeless in my opinion. That's why they're similar. Like the telephone game, the story changes slightly at every retelling.
The hostile brothers motif is wide spread and as old as time.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
Allah Glory to him said:
Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31-
That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32-
Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
Thanks Jonathan!
That was an inspired one, reminds me of the short videos from 2 years ago
Great work!
This man blows my mind on a regular basis.
It seems like the cain, Remus, promethazine Architype seems to be trying to hack the process, find a shortcut does anybody else get that thought?
In the Book of Hebrews, Paul tells us why Cain’s sacrifice was not accepted-it was because his heart was wicked and he had no faith.
qayyins offering was smoking ephedra (plant adrenaline), ab-els was aerosolized adrenal glands (animal adrenaline)
Orthodoxy is more about intuition than knowledge.......We are supposed to use our authentic power in the service of something higher than us. We will be tested more and more, us our power increases.
There is always the prophetic forward looking aspect pointing to the sacrifice of a LAMB being the acceptable sacrifice. I.e The Lamb of God. And there is also the proto blood sacrifice element, that Abel followed God’s example of blood sacrifice to cover sin implicit in Genesis 3:21 where the sacrifice of animals was required to cover Adam and Eve’s ‘shame’/nakedness. God confirming that sin would ultimately be dealt with by the shedding of blood alone, not by the labour/sweat/toil of man.
Hey, so I'm well aware that self-plugs in the comment section can be annoying, so I apologize in advance, but my entire 10 part blog series discusses at length the effect of the Cain and Abel story. I think a lot of people would get value out of the Adrian Jay Blog for that reason. It's free on Substack
Thanks
I wonder if this also has something to do with how dwarfs came about in Norse mythology. They were said to be born from the maggots that infested the corpse of the giant Ymir. Ymir's death was the catalyst for the creation of the world and the race of dwarves. His body was used to create the land, the oceans, and the sky, and his maggots were transformed into dwarves. They were said to live in underground dwellings and are a race of beings who are skilled craftsmen and smiths.
Amsterdam represent
I think this has more to do with the change in culture from a hunter gather to farming society. Farming would also allow for cities and time for technology. But it is ultimately the shepherd the hunter and gather that over time reminds people the way the truth the life.
plot twist: abel was carnivoire and cain was vegan
great listen, i really needed that today!
Religions are meta-narratives, not intended to explain the physical universe, but to describe the real-world structures of universal patterns and axioms (“Truths”) that can be leveraged by consciousness, volition and spirit in our creations to sustainably achieve greatness.
Religions emerged together with civilization as an anthropological consequence of the transition of our species from subconsciously guided beings to beings with conscious volition, which is what genesis describes. The eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, or the elegance of a capability of judgement increased intelligence, but also initiated a counterintuitive evolutionary quest for inner peace through procreation and toil.
The genesis pattern is a continually recurring event in the history of the increasingly conscious species.
Or not.
☦
can you do a series like this on the whole Bible ?
From the animal, I'd say the bones and the skin are the parts most likely used as building blocks for some form of technological items, like for instance clothing and tools.
I also see a parallel with the left and the right hemispheres of the brain, the left hemisphere being "in charge" of instruments, seeing the whole in parts, the particular and artificial, sequential (tit for tat) the map rather than the territory, language, grasping and manipulating, etc, and the right hemisphere attending to the whole, the father, humility (tends to be more melancholic but realistic, sees living beings, empathatic, emotional, etc.
Looking at it from this perspective, whatever the left hemisphere sacrifices, it is incapable of offering an appropriate sacrifice simply because of its inability to appreciate what is outside of its scope. Anger and resentment are also emotions attributed to the left hemisphere, so even the response to the denial of God's blessing is predictable. I'm reading The Master And His Emissary by McGilchrist and these ideas came up. 🙏🏼
2bits for the conversation:
God made the first sacrifice when he killed the animal and made garments of skin for Adam and Eve. People were still not allowed at this time to eat meat.
Abel kept flocks which had little purpose other than to be killed to make more garments of skin and perhaps to sacrifice to God. Abel in this way is acting as a prefigured high priest of sorts.
Abel's actions were an act of remembrance/echoing of the promises of God (praise/worship) and a continuing on the tradition that acknowledged the garments of skin as the only thing given by God for an acceptable covering until the promised seed would crush the serpent.
Cain worked the soil for food, providing sustenance for the body. There is some implication that everyone thought he would be the promised seed. So in an act of self-naming of sorts he offered the fruit of his labor (his salvific work). His sacrifice while a seemingly good thing in his eyes was not pleasing to God because it did not acknowledge the placeholder of the garments of skin as covering/salvation/life that God had established. Instead of repenting of this error (which God called him to do) he became bitter and vengeful and committed the first act of human sacrifice, proving to be of the seed of the serpent instead of the seed to defeat the serpent.
Thank you.
Hi Jonathan, I always love your videos. I had a question I’ve always wondered about this part. If Cain did wrong and by the killing of his brother put a course in himself. Why didn’t God allowed for anyone to kill him?
You'd enjoy the richness of Joyce's pun in Finnegans Wake: "cain enabler"
On another note, are you aware of the positive role of Cain in Jewish tradition? It goes like this. What did Jesus teach? "The doctrine of repentance for the remission of sins." Scripturally, Cain is the very first person in the entire Tanakh to repent ("my punishment etc.") . Thus his being the founder of urbanism and the progenitor of artists and crafstmen is not as many think a condemnation of urban life but it is rather a lesson about the infinity of the Father's mercy.
One sad, but quick note, is that images don't always capture the full picture (event). The problem becomes, and is obvious, that an image (the art) captures a moment in an event and can skew the event. For example, we say God rejected Cain, rather than saying God rejected Cain's sacrifice. The image captures the rejection but fails to capture God's mercy. In other words, Cain knew the right way to sacrifice but chose "I did it my way." Also, why do we say God rejected Cain more time than say God corrected Cain? If I say to the reader "I reject you" what emotions do you feel verses "You can do this right way"? Which of the two did you find yourself leaning towards? Ah, "I reject you" has fire of anger in it and the sweet thought of revenge can cause the heart to fall from grace. As God deals with sin, we see a real image of God's humble personality appear. First God is the Creator and is a King (King of glory), someone that could have easily sent an angelic being to talk with Cain. When's the last time a CEO came to fix a problem while on the lavish yacht in the Mediterranean? Do they not send a manager or a manager over managers to address an issue. Therefore these images, sadly, cannot show God correcting and call Cain back to doing what is right, only the cold left shoulder...which in truth will be what happens at the last judgment to all who sacrifice to God of their own way and not God's way of work to show forth faith--the more perfect sacrifice.
Adam "knew" Eve about the time of the spring equinox (March 25), at the very moment when the Virgin Mary " was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost," or March wind. This would indicate that Cain's birth occurred at the winter solstice, and so was coincident with the birth of Jesus Christ. Very soon, however, it is said, "Eve again bare his brother Abel" (Gen. 4:2). Did Eve bear Abel a second time? The language certainly indicates this. The Hebrew says she added to her bearing his brother Abel; and thus, we may suppose Cain and Abel were twins, like Esau and Jacob.
Esau and Jacob wrestled while in the womb. Esau (winter) being six months older than Jacob (summer) was the tough guy. Their mother, the Virgo constellation, had a touch time with her pregnancies.
"Cain," it is said (Gen. 4:2), "was a tiller of the ground." The Hebrew says he was an obed, i.e., a slave of the ground (Adam). Cain is, literally, a lance; an instrument used in hunting in winter, and by metonymy, is winter itself. No; Cain was not a tiller of the ground; but like all savages, he was a slave, and subject to all the hardships and inconveniences of savage life. What kind of a "tiller of the ground" could he be whose labors were decreed by the Almighty to go unrewarded - unto whom it was decreed that when he tilled it, the ground "shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength"
(Gen.4:12), but only "thorns and thistles" (Gen. 3.18)? 'Tis true, in Gen. 3. 19, Adam is told he shall " eat his bread in the sweat of his brow;" but "lehem" here translated " bread," means food in general - such as the savage usually gets, and that too by the sweat of his face. Abel means the same as Eve, i.e., breath, life or summer. Thus. we find Cain and Abel are the true offspring of Adam and Eve; the same exactly as one year is the offspring of the preceding year. Hence, too, we find that this myth is but a rehash of that of Adam and Eve.
"In process of time," reads our false version, "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground, etc." (Gen. 4:3). "At the end of his days" is the true rendering, i.e., at the end of winter, on the night before "the Beginning" of the New Year, which was at the vernal equinox. At the end of winter, then, " Cain brought of the fruit of the ground" - "thorns also and thistles," i.e., the dreary and desolate earth - as an offering unto the Lord (summer). "And Abel, he also, brought of the first-born of his flock," i.e., Aries, the first of the summer constellations. Thus, we see the two brothers, winter and summer, met at the spring equinox. "The Lord had respect unto Abel and his offering" (Gen. 4:4). Of course; and the Lord (the summer Sun) was right, for who has not respect for the seven fruitful months of summer (Abel) over which the Lord presided, and their rich and precious gifts ‘(“But unto Cain and his offering (the dreary and desolate earth), he had not respect."
No wonder. The Lord-God had previously (Gen. 3. 18) cursed the ground so that when Cain tilled it, it would bring forth "thorns and thistles." And hence, I think, none of us would disapprove of the Lord's preference. "So, Cain was wroth, and his countenance fell," i.e., winter returned, when the surface of the earth was turned from the Sun, the heavens were overcast with clouds and the winds blew cold.
I have to profer the question/idea that perhaps, just perhaps, we are reading ideas and notions into these ancient stories that aren't there. Or, put another way, if there are clear ideas embedded into these ancient stories when is it time to stop 'wringing' every last drop - every analogy - out of these accounts ? We have to be wary that we are not acting in such a way simply in order to feel we are being both clever and discerning. Its actually a serious question: we should be clear about what is obvious and what is more 'blurred'.
Am I understanding correctly?
2:12 Eve gave birth to 2 sons
“Am I my brothers keeper?”
“I shall be a fugitive…”
- downward spiral
6:59 Blessing Right Hand
10:06 3 Pagan Myths in the frame of Adam and Eve
• Romulus & Remus, 2 brothers found a city, Rome. Brother kills Brother
• Prometheus & Zeus, Improper Sacrifice, Stolen Fire, Cycle of Passions
• Hephaestus - breaks rule, improper sacrifice, thrown off Paradise into Hades
17:03 Bad Offerings,
Trying To Trick
Artificial, Fake, Lesser
Presumptive
23:13 Transgression
25:52 Lamech
- became old and blind
- kills 2 men, his ancestor and his son.
Probably its a bit tediuos to point that out but it was Remus who assaults Romulus and the latter defends himself. That city limit was later called Pomerium and crossing it wearing arms was punished by death. Therefore Rome became demilitarized zone unlike any other etruscan or latin city arround thus gradually devoiding politics of violence, which eventually sew the seeds of republic in Rome. Saint Augustin belived Roman republic was at least partially divine. In the context of Abel and Cain story i don't see a way how murder could lay foundation of anything divine or prosperous in any regard.
Anyways Romulus and Remus story is actually an inverted version of biblical story. The whole conflict was about what should be foundational - commerce (proximity to water (Tiber river) - Aventine hill - Remus point) or military prowess (defsnsible Capitoline hill - Romuulus point). Not only Romulus did not feel any remorse, roman myth says he ascended to divine under the name of Quirin (that very Q in SPQR by the way) and that he didnt actually die. It is esespecially relevant because Quirin cult was foundational to republics downfall - Caesar erected temples to Quirin and emphasised deification of Roman foundation as divine monarchy
Central to what you bring up on founding murders is René Girard's 'i see satan fall like lightning' - scapegoating, mimetic violence, the creation of myths by collective violence
@@Sokofeather well what I meant was that foundation of cities and technological progress is not inherently evil. After all the epicenter of tech progress and civility at the time was the very city found by fratricide and that very center later became the hallmark of original Christianity. Reducing mythology for purposes of fiting a cross cultural patterns may bring ill consequences. Likewise branding all technology as exclusively evil (direction opposite to communion) we may just engage in escapism out of fear. Which is bad i guess. Well I am a coder and it is increasingly difficult to balance Orthodox Christianity and my profession, and I believe the whole hellscape of modern platforms may be just that consequence of Christian withdrawal from the field. JP take on the subject suggests we are at leastbpartially responsible for this - theres no need in participation in craft as long as you condemn it. Even if it is essential to culture and information transmission
I don't know much about these stories but I think anyone that doesn't want arms in the city is someone that wants absolute control of the population. People generally don't hurt each other because most are filled with love, so weapons are a moot point I think. One would think Remus had every right to possess arms and to not let a selfish psychopath control him, and everyone and everything around him. It's usually governments that want to outlaw weapons because they don't want to be deposed. Regular people are chill. That's a red flag for me right away. Where did city dwellers keep their hunting weapons? Or did they just eat the slave diet of grains and sugar like modern times? I suppose they didn't use refined sugar to enslave people through addiction, but they probably used fruit.
I don't know the whole story, but I know there's evil in the world, so if someone prevents you from having weapons, that's not cool at all, and is very telling of someone's intentions.
@@daxmoore2060 well that is a modern take on arms. It is sound in a world where bearing arms is considered almost blasphemous. In the times of Rome foundation literally anyone bore arms and bloodshed was omnipresent. Bearing arms in the republic was a normal thing, the point of pomerium arms prohibition was to banish arms and lethal methods as a plausible way to solve political disputes. When romans started violating pomerium they lost their republic and descended to tyrany and violence became business as usual for a long time
@@igchek In another video, Pageau brings out the point that the final destination of mankind is a Huge Golden City with a garden inside. Cain and Abel resolved, Rome and the Church resolved, nature and technology resolved by Christ being the center.
Jonathan, I was wondering how Lamech's wanting to be avengend seventy times seven is related to Peter's question of how much to forgive my brother and Jesus's reply of the Forgiving Seventy times seven your brothers sin and then Jesus telling the parable of the the unforgiving servant. I know that Jesus is trying to flush out something from the old testament and maybe related to Cain's family and how they dealt with brothers etc. Is this part of the left and right comparison?
Hi Mr.Jonathan Pageau,
I have a few questions, if you can answer them, it would be great.
How are you?
I wanted to know, what did you think of the conversation you assisted by your presence with Dr.Peterson and the muslims in UK.?
Will you assist to more ?
Also, do you know what Jordan peterson ment in the end of the conversation when he answer about the evidences question? He said he didn't know what to do with the fact that he has a large following of christians and jews. Is it that he is interested in Islam but is afraid of the consequences that it might have with his audience ? He also said that the evidence he is more interested in are how much someone shines, I did not get that.
Thanks.
Hi. I think Jordan is trying to convey the message that he doesnt need to subscribe( for a lack of a better word) to Islam, because Christianity is already fulfilling all the principles of Islam. The And to say one is more(better) than the other can only be proven by how it manifests itself in reality(which ever ones light shines brightest)
@@chereecannon3398 The point the muslim gentleman was making is that he has logical and empirical evidences for the case of islam. So I did not get why dr.Peterson closed the door for that. Maybe Dr.Peterson is more interested in the moral side of religions. But, even then. I think the muslim lad should have addapted his discussions to his interlocutor. Maybe if he started by establishing the fundamental basics of the islamic moral system and build up in abstraction until he arrives to God or Allah, it would have bean more compelling for Dr peterson. But even then he needed to follow the way the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him conveyed the message of islam. He was known to be a "walking coran". Mohammed Hijab lack of wisdom here, clearly didn't shine. He has the books but still needs the wisdom. Anyway, have a nice day brother or sister.
@@MrHouloul good point
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
Allah Glory to him said:
Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31-
That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32-
Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
I always thought in Egyptian mythology Osiris and seth was cane and able.
Osiris also became Noah.
Adam "knew" Eve about the time of the spring equinox (March 25), at the very moment when the Virgin Mary " was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost," or March wind. This would indicate that Cain's birth occurred at the winter solstice, and so was coincident with the birth of Jesus Christ. Very soon, however, it is said, "Eve again bare his brother Abel" (Gen. 4:2). Did Eve bear Abel a second time? The language certainly indicates this. The Hebrew says she added to her bearing his brother Abel; and thus, we may suppose Cain and Abel were twins, like Esau and Jacob.
Esau and Jacob wrestled while in the womb. Esau (winter) being six months older than Jacob (summer) was the tough guy. Their mother, the Virgo constellation, had a touch time with her pregnancies.
"Cain," it is said (Gen. 4:2), "was a tiller of the ground." The Hebrew says he was an obed, i.e., a slave of the ground (Adam). Cain is, literally, a lance; an instrument used in hunting in winter, and by metonymy, is winter itself. No; Cain was not a tiller of the ground; but like all savages, he was a slave, and subject to all the hardships and inconveniences of savage life. What kind of a "tiller of the ground" could he be whose labors were decreed by the Almighty to go unrewarded - unto whom it was decreed that when he tilled it, the ground "shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength"
(Gen.4:12), but only "thorns and thistles" (Gen. 3.18)? 'Tis true, in Gen. 3. 19, Adam is told he shall " eat his bread in the sweat of his brow;" but "lehem" here translated " bread," means food in general - such as the savage usually gets, and that too by the sweat of his face. Abel means the same as Eve, i.e., breath, life or summer. Thus. we find Cain and Abel are the true offspring of Adam and Eve; the same exactly as one year is the offspring of the preceding year. Hence, too, we find that this myth is but a rehash of that of Adam and Eve.
"In process of time," reads our false version, "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground, etc." (Gen. 4:3). "At the end of his days" is the true rendering, i.e., at the end of winter, on the night before "the Beginning" of the New Year, which was at the vernal equinox. At the end of winter, then, " Cain brought of the fruit of the ground" - "thorns also and thistles," i.e., the dreary and desolate earth - as an offering unto the Lord (summer). "And Abel, he also, brought of the first-born of his flock," i.e., Aries, the first of the summer constellations. Thus, we see the two brothers, winter and summer, met at the spring equinox. "The Lord had respect unto Abel and his offering" (Gen. 4:4). Of course; and the Lord (the summer Sun) was right, for who has not respect for the seven fruitful months of summer (Abel) over which the Lord presided, and their rich and precious gifts ‘(“But unto Cain and his offering (the dreary and desolate earth), he had not respect."
No wonder. The Lord-God had previously (Gen. 3. 18) cursed the ground so that when Cain tilled it, it would bring forth "thorns and thistles." And hence, I think, none of us would disapprove of the Lord's preference. "So, Cain was wroth, and his countenance fell," i.e., winter returned, when the surface of the earth was turned from the Sun, the heavens were overcast with clouds and the winds blew cold.
The right and left hand symbolism throughout the Bible calls to mind Ian McGhilchrist's work on the left/right hemispheres. Have you thought of this?
Cain and Abel are representations of fruit yielded from the consummation of the tree of knowledge , fruit of the material world. opposed to fruit of the spirit - apple of the minds eye v apple of the heart (when mind and soul are one in the heart of God).
Eve consuming the “apple of the eye”, which represent thoughts borne of the phenomenal screen of the mind, divided in its nature, represents the mind grasping at the fruit which yields division. When sown in Adam, the soul, yields a tree perpetuating fruit of both good and evil - Cain and Abel who end up self annihilating each other - destruction of the false self which is unsustainable - to live a lie in a life filled with doubt. Thus fruit borne of the mind, lacking contemplation with its true consort, loses the connection to God- and this is a conception that leads to pain in its birthing and development .
Seth represents a restoration to the truth- the object and goal and our “true love” and path in life - which seeds the tree of life within, the kingdom of heaven , where one finds fulfillment , contentment and sanctuary, yielding fruit of the spirit that sustains life to develop our highest selves.
Adam and Eve putting on animal skins represent a yielding to their animal sensory selves, cleaved onto the material world, rather than the world of the God’s spirit.
The death of Abel is a kind of dark night of the soul, where one has the free will of choice in the subsequent trajectories - the lineage of Cain and the lineage of Seth are compared thus in subsequent stories, echoed again in stories like Esau and Jacob (one clothed in animal skin vs one in true garments)
So cains curse is the equivilent to lactoc acid in the muscls?
I heard someone say the fruit of the "ground" is inferior to say the fruit from the top of a tree. But that could be nonsense.
Just my thoughts on the value of the sacrifices. Meat and fat from sheep is by far superior nutrition than fruit. Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock, so it would be the first to reach harvest maturity, so it would be the most valuable. Cain brought the fruit of the ground. My thought reading this is that he brought fruit that had already fallen to the ground and is therefore basically just fertilizer for the tree and not the most carefully selected fruit that he picked, sort of like Prometheus bringing that which he would have thrown out anyways rather than the prime valuable resource.
What should I do if I see similar patterns in my life to that of Cain?
To some degree we all have a little Cain inside of us. Those patterns will manifest in different ways. The bright side is that we also have a little Abel inside of us too, and it is that side that the Holy Spirit wants to make more manifest. The fact that you are awake to it is a good sign and it means the Spirit is at work shaping you into the Image of Christ…If we are awake to it.
2 Corinthians 3:18: “But we all, with uncovered face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
Celebrate that awareness! No one can change what they are un aware of. The desire to heal in the recognition it comes not from your own thinking (blaming), is to abide with and through, instead of reacting FROM the pattern. Awareness is transformative. So let doing, wait on a true movement or peace from which to be whole in. But of course 'do' whatever serves the condition for holding such a focus, such as centres and grounds or connects at the heart. But that is not 'problem solving' so much as creating space for perspective to rise.
I offer this as invitation, not any presumptions as to 'should'.
In The Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful
Allah Glory to him said:
Relate to them in truth ˹O Prophet˺ the story of Adam’s two sons-how each offered a sacrifice: Abel’s offering was accepted while Cain’s was not. So Cain threatened, “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts ˹the offering˺ of the sincerely devout. -27- If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah-the Lord of all worlds. -28- I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” -29- Yet Cain convinced himself to kill his brother, so he killed him-becoming a loser. -30- Then Allah sent a crow digging ˹a grave˺ in the ground ˹for a dead crow˺, in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I ˹even˺ failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful. -31-
That is why We ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever takes a life-unless as a punishment for murder or mischief in the land-it will be as if they killed all of humanity; and whoever saves a life, it will be as if they saved all of humanity.1 ˹Although˺ Our messengers already came to them with clear proofs, many of them still transgressed afterwards through the land.-32-
Al Maida…Al-Quran Al-kareem
Seek Jesus. Have faith. Do well.
Get a LAWYER
nice intro
The conscious mind is masculine (objective thinking) (false self) ego mind. The subconscious is feminine (emotion, feelings). The conscious is Adam, and the subconscious is Eve. They are separated within us. The vail between them is the flaming sword at the entrance to the garden of Eden. We can not become whole and return to paradise without the unity of the two (the lifting of the vail). The discovery and understanding of the true self (the discernment of thoughts) the rejection of the ego self removes the separation and brings us back into paradise. All of the stories are about each of us then and now. It's all happening within us right now.
I think of Abel's burnt offering (cooking?) of the lamb to be a representation of having the strength to necessarily kill an animal to fulfill natural instinct for survival. Reliance on plant vegetation as a substitute for meat is convenient yet in conflict with our true dietary needs, and makes us weaker and more fragile, more easily manipulated and bound by impulses. Think of why the elites promote veganism! Cain's offering also represents how the early developments of technology in the form of farming crops was an attempt to supplement what is already available in nature to stockpile more, which is fundamentally what the foundation of power structures are essentially about - protecting that surplus of goods that we have created and to pursue endless greed for ever more. As we can see today, the greater and greater development of technologies has made us passive to survival and domesticated and enslaved by those who control the resources that we become dependent on. This is not only limited to farming of crops, of course; animal husbandry has been perverted by these forces, to cause an unnecessary life of suffering for many animals (we have pushed it to the point of far removing animals from a respectful existence, even to the extent of attaching pipes on each end for feeding and waste removal, as if they are were merely an organ in a larger machine, all in the name of feeding this never satisfied lust for greater profit and power).
I wonder what you think about John Steinbeck's East of Eden and his interpretation of the C-pattern and the A-pattern
I’ve read that book, please do tell🤔
Please do tell indeed
Cains blessing came from the Earth he was blind to see his fruit sprouting.
The purpose of sacrifice is to prevent what happens when it fails
while Reading through Genesis this evening I came away with some curious ideas. In the story of Cain and Abel, Abel gives a pleasing sacrifice To God of meat and fat. I understand that one way the ancients sacrificed was by burning, sending the smoke into heaven. I also see an animal as a singular expression of the whole creation. While Cane offers just some of his abundance of agricultural products.
In God's eyes Cains's sacrifice is not a sacrifice at all. Instead of trying to be better, Cain calls his brother into the field and Murders Able. Thus, watering his own field with the blood of his brother...signifying the full decent of Man.
Able sacrifice Is toward Heaven.
Cain's sacrifice is truely the blood of his brother to soak the earth.
With lots in between...we get to Noah ,who is in the line of Seth, but presumably his wife is from the line of Cain.
What came to me while Reading today was the idea that the flood waters of Noah is the same as the blood of Able, that so marred that rocky waste.
By Noah building An alter for burnt Offerings...He is the First person to make a proper/pleasing sacrifice To God...once again offering up to heaven ...reversing the blood of Abel that soaked the Earth.
Cain offered plants. Abel offered animals. Many on the Left want us to eat only plants. Many on the right are moving towards full carnivore.
I like Steiner's take on Cain and Abel better. Abel was subservient to the demiurge, symbolized in sacrifice, relying on said demiurge. Cain relied on himself, and tilled the earth. The demiurge, being jealous and insecure, cursed Cain
Edit: you're connecting dots that aren't there; Cain didn't try to trick the demiurge as Prometheus tried to. Romulus and Remus is also a stretch. Yes, some of humanity views the world in dichotomies and polarities , hence the frequency that they're portrayed in myths, but that's not every civilization.
Except both Cain and Abel willingly sacrifice to God in the story. I also don't know why you're looking for a gnostic interpretation here, you obviously will not find it.
So are the current jews or khazarian jews descendants of caine / cainanites? I've heard this so many times but I've never done the research myself.
I don't think it matters where one came from, only how they act. Of course they own google and TH-cam so the truth won't be making the mainstream anytime soon.
Cain's sacrifice is more symbolic, more "advanced": it's a substitution of grain for animal, as animal was a substitute for human. If, as seems to be the case, animal and human sacrifice is the more primitive, I wonder if Cain's sacrifice is refused precisely because it is "overreaching", much the same way one can say that Adam and Eve "overreach" when they take what was not yet given (wisdom, or "knowledge of good and evil"). The "origin of sin" seems to be that grasping, overreaching and taking what is not (yet) given - because it is given later in the story: to Solomon, who ASKED, rather than TOOK, and was indeed GIVEN what he (at the age of twelve, i.e. no longer a child but and adult) is ready to receive. Cain's problem is that he wants what he can't have: God's blessing. And why does God withhold it? Because Cain, the founder of civilisation, is not ready for something as advance as symbolic sacrifice, namely grain as a substitute for animal, which is a substitute for human sacrifice. The end result is that Cain reverts all the way back to the most "primitive" sacrifice: he kills his brother. But instead of celebrating this as a "sacrifice" (which is precisely what is done with the slaying of Remus by his brother Romulus) the Bible calls it murder: the ultimate sin against one's brother. Interestingly, Christ uses grain-become-bread to anticipate his own sacrifice of himself as the "lamb of God": human, animal and symbolic merge in Eucharist.
Suddenly I saw a possible connection between God's declaration of sevenfold punishment on the one who kills Cain and Jesus saying "He who is without sin cast the first stone."..... so anybody who casts the first stone would have the sin of self-righteousness, and whoever kills Cain would commit the same sin of self-righteousness. Does this make sense? Do I see it correctly? The pattern of "weakness" "trickery/falseness" connecting to envy and to technology is quite striking in these stories. Thank you, Jonathan!
"if you kill your (metaphorical) brother, you will be cursed to have people kill you", we call this God's will but taken metaphorically it could mean that once people know you're a murderer they now have the dilemma of letting a dangerous person continue living.
Seems like common knowledge but Lord of the Flies has them accidentally kill multiple people and each time they're just like "now what?" BIG NOTE The murderers aren't punished according to God's will and it has exponential consequences until the kids are literally saved by God again.
"but the domino effect is what caused them to be saved!"
The real ending would have them burn the island down (scorched earth metaphor) unable to continue living there but that's just my head canon
💜
Cains sacrifice was Abel. He was his brothers keeper and was supposed to be a good shepard to him like Abel was to his sheep, but he became envious and was too ignorant to see Gods blessing was being an older brother.
Can you tell me where you talk about the straight and the curved, staff and globus?
"Authority on the Right, Power on the Left" th-cam.com/video/9b4DXTrsFuk/w-d-xo.html
I can't help but think of Cain's offering coming from the ground God cursed because of Adam. Also, God takes Cain's first born Enoch eventually anyway.
He was given a mark or divine protection from premature death and damnation was never prescribed to him yet many times later in the New Test, this seems to contradict this idea.
another way to look at it....Cain is Winter and Abel is Summer.
I like these videos more. Jonathan Pageau only. no one else sharing screen time
First micronesian checking in
I was opened to the territory, to then find an articulation and path of reintegration in which an inner discernment recognises pattern within, that are reflected without and which persist as a limiting or differentiating movement until brought to awareness. Why say this? Because the recognition is not an intellectual framework built like a city but a garden that grows with as a result of letting in what was killed or denied by the image-led consciousness or ego-centric identity set in lack, disconnection, rejection, abandonment and the driven need to 'survive' as a masked and distanced false witness, in a realm of artifice raised over the simple truth given and received as one.
The basis for a deeper understanding is in ask and it shall be given - sow and reap or knock and be answered. If we seek for GETTING, we seek where we cannot find because a lack of worth cannot call to worth, but a release of self-judgement can and does allow the Holy Spirit to move through us as both prayer or true desire & fulfilment.
I see the Prodigal Son as a simplified Prometheus - where the drama of a mis-taken inheritance is not given focus excepting it delivers to wretched and desolate isolation as the bottoming out of an addiction (to external or image-based reality) in willingness to be even a servant in my father's house (without any claim for myself), the recognition of the the beloved son is the restatement of a true Inherence as the gift of the Holy Spirit or healing of the 'separation of a split mind - that Cain and Abel represent.
The masking over by an ingenuity of artifice runs as a second nature set over the first as a source of curse and revisiting of trauma. All things go forth and multiply each according to their kind, so what then of self-illusions given power or priority over feared truth? Excepting this: nothing can be raised to any power without true increase, and a multiplying of lies is no more true than it first cover story. So no matter how many steps away we have lived, we are never more than one step from truth.
Bottoming out is where we can no longer find any way to not look upon what we have made by wish, fear and belief set in guilt, to find already undone.
16:33, Why God refuses Cain's sacrifice: may be because the product of the earth it's the product of a sedentary life in opposition to Abel's lamb, which is associated with a nomadic life. So, I believe the reason of this refusal is indeed important. Cain then funds his city, seems like this kind of settlement is mankind's damnation, may be?
Ables blessing is to have smart obedient sheep.
Would you guys just open a University already? Or a Book store at least?
Also, I would love for you to do a symbiotic break down of a Saints Life. Forgive me for being so demanding. Bishop Neophytos said he would give people Lives of Saints before even reading the Gospel.
I am just concerned that these talks can leave people merely thinking a lot. But there is something existential to be embodied here. Forgive me. I know you are a great bridge to the Truth Mr. Pageau. Saint Christopher would be proud.
Oh wait a minute… You did do a break down of the life of Saint Christopher didn’t you? Forgive me! But maybe do a modern Saint! Saint John Maximovich, Saint Raphael of Brooklyn, Saint Paisios the Athonite, Saint Iakovos of Evia, Saint Nektarios of Aegina, Or perhaps Saint Silouan the Athonite! Forgive me.
can anybody comment on the symbolism of veganism, how it relates to cain, and insufficient sacrifice being rejected. Do you know any vegans who possess the spirit of cain?
also, workaholics may possess the spirit of cain. They are putting those extra hours in the wage cage, but it is "improper sacrifice" as it disrespect the "cosmic order" (insert your preferred term) (?)
I see the Greek Prometheus as the Semitic Abraham and his Covenant with God, who says, My Covenant shall be between me and thee, or that is, pro-me-thee-us, in concerns of the seed of Abraham.
The sacrifice of skin and bones can be connected to Jacob’s putting a skin on his arm when he pretends to be Esau.
While the bones and skin together become Ezekiel’s vision of the valley of bones which rise up geo-politically in the epical compass of each New World, like the bones of Joseph taken up by the Hebrews in Egypt, and flesh coming upon them, as well as the breath of generation at such finally universal heights.
Cain brought the fruit of the ground and Abel brought, ..., and fat, as a carnivore I can see why God favored the offering of fat and not fruit. Seems right to me, a mere man.
I noticed in the third image Abel is barefoot while Cain's feet are wrapped. Cain's garb is red and matches Abel's red alter.
Notice that it is JUST a PAINTING???
@@LookOutForNumberOne you're fun.
@@sovereigntindall1442 You are Gullible.
I think its also similar to the relationship of jesus and satan. Jesus even becomes a sacrifice that lucifer would never do for God or anyone.
I also see some similarity with Esau and Jacob, but Esau was somewhat taken care of after he sold his birth right for some soup. Not valuing what God gave him like Satan not valuing his place he threw away what he had.