Whaalaa, brother. Doctor Joel Seedman has profoundly indicated truth for function. It is because of him we are stronger and can fight the enemy. Shaaa Allah , praise the blessed one Joel. 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
I very much agree with you here Zack. I did my masters thesis on comparing squats to 90 degrees vs past parallel and we also saw the same thing there, although the sample size was too small to find major statistically significant differences, in a practical sense, we still saw the past parallel group improve almost twice as much on 1RM at both squat depths than the 90-degree group (in well trained participants). We also see that neural adaptations are not necessarily greater at higher loads if that higher load is allowed through shorter ROM exercise. In terms of muscle hypertrophy, although not very relevant in this setting, we know FOR SURE that deeper squats are superior.
How small a sample size are we talking here? Seeing a variable coefficient that wide spread without being able to draw statistically significance sounds more like noise to me.
Nice to see I'm not the only psycho that looked for a way to connect their field of study with their favorite pastime (lifting). My masters was more about the psychological side of fitness though.
So why do you think Rhea (study: 'Joint-angle specific strength adaptations influence improvements in power in highly trained athletes') found that quarter squat was better than full squat for vertical jump and sprint speed in athletic population? Could it be that full squat doesnt train explosiveness as well because the depth dilutes intensity? And so could partial squats be better for people who are more explosive aka the athletic population? There could also be physiological reason for this: people with longer femurs might have trouble using their full potential in full squat.
I'll preface this by saying that I am 100% in Zack's camp and that I think that Joel is a charlatan and fraud. However, I think it was a little disingenuous for both of these guys to run the other guys program and expect any real feedback from either side, it was obvious from the beginning that: 1. Joel's branding and business success relies on him being steadfast in his methodology 2. Zack's right, he knows he's right, and knew he was going to be right at the conclusion of this experiment I think it'd be interesting to see two groups of beginner or novice lifters take on Zack's programming and Joel's programming over the course of about 3 months in a coached and monitored environment then tested objectively on strength and athletic performance gains at the end. Obviously I don't know if this would be feasible, but if possible I think would be the most compelling way to debunk Joel.
I 100% agree with you, but here's the problem, and why frauds will exist in this space forever. Joel can make any number of wild claims and never actually have to properly test his "system" in any real scientific environment or accept the results of any test of his system. Once you go through the effort of disproving one claim which would take months, maybe years of study, research and ludicrous amounts of money, then he can just pivot to a slightly more nuanced claim or find any number of ways to doubt the results. If him and his followers haven't changed their ways based on all the existing research that disproves Seedman's claims, one more study ain't going to convert them. Best case scenario, it just deepens his and his followers' cognitive dissonance.
Unfortunately even in a controlled setting I think it's very likely that Joel would still claim something to the effect of that the demerits of a full ROM squat only become apparent in some arbitrarily long time that isn't feasible to do or that the real benefits can be seen from his NFL athletes or sprinters or some such. I'm definitely biased and in the full rom crew, but I think it's fair to say Seedman has a lot of practice in producing word salad to make his methods sound more impressive than they probably (definitely) are :/
@@MT-lo4ie you're likely right. But it'd still be interesting to perform the experiment and let people draw their own conclusions. Of course Semen can spin it however he wants.
I was a national level thrower 15-21 & was only taught how to quarter squat (90deg). My knees were fucked by 20, excruciating pain whenever I turned in the ring and I had to retire. At the time I physically was unable to deep squat (didn’t even know what it was). At 29, 8 years of self taught rehab, 5 years learning how to ATG squat. Deep squatting is an expression of a healthy & strong body. Quarter squatting is a representation of peak power in a very short range. Not everyone needs to quarter squat, athletes should sometimes. But everyone needs to ATG squat
This is a really good comment because it doesn’t state that quarter squatting is de facto wrong all the time (and I say this as an ATG die hard). There can be value to quarter squatting - DEPENDENT ON CONTEXT AND INDIVIDUAL, but the vast majority of people lifting weights will never need to do so.
Hit the nail on the head, pretty much everything has a time & place, Seedy seems to be saying that the time & place is always. @@deficitstifflegzercherdeadlift
Yep couldn't agree more. Quarter squat great for short ROM power expression but should never be done as your only squat. Front or back ATG squat so fucking good
After I started doing Joel Seedman's 90-degree Eccentric Isometrics, all of my credit card debt disappeared and the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to my dog.
In my eyes the quarter squat is death to knees. Load is high and sheering forces are greatest at that point where you go from eccentric to concentric. Accessory moment sure, but done in absence of full ROM squats is asking for trouble.
I’ve said this elsewhere and I stand by it - I’m convinced Seedman got hurt squatting and never emotionally recovered. Dude seemed genuinely scared when Zack suggested that squat atg
Quarter squats have been quite useful for me when getting sprinters ready for track meets, looking to maintain strength, minimize fatigue, and keep the bar acceleration rapid & brief. But for actually developing a strength base, larger ranges of motion are the go-to. Typically we run a lot slower when doing deep squats, much faster when doing quarter squats. It’s not that the quarter squats make us faster, but they’re less disruptive both mechanically and neurologically than the deep squats are. If the lifting a sprinter is doing has a very long time to peak velocity, say 800ms, when they have less than 100ms to produce force on the ground each step, the rate of force development during sprinting often suffers temporarily. Quarter squats and other reduced ROM lifts help keep the TPV closer to the time frames we have to develop force in sprinting & jumping events. So once a base of max strength is developed through bigger ROM lifts, the shorter ROM helps keep RFD time frames closer to the demands of the event while still offering a way to maintain enough strength from what was developed with larger ROM movements. I don’t use them with everybody but they do have some uses. Either way the absolutist approach to any exercise or ROM is kind of wack and narrow minded imo.
I think you are bring up to this conversation something that I believe is exactly the root of the issue.... Purpose or intent of training. If the argument is for which of the two variants is best for X, then both will have their own pros and cons. But if the argument is based on 1 specific goal (ex. pure raw strength) then one side will hands down dominates the conversation... and it's not Joel's 😉
Thing is, you use it for a very specific purpose. They had us do box squats in football to work on explosiveness. But if his take is that partials are the best and ATG is the worst from an injury perspective, I’d argue the opposite on that. One being that usually ATG requires much more discipline and mileage to perfect, and you can’t lift as heavy going full range. With partial, any beginner can load their spine and act like they’re lifting heavy at the cost of hurting themselves, not to mention you can’t learn good form starting heavy.
@@ATHLETE.X yeah I understood your take! I was partly defending your point for sprinters by adding the fact that they have football players do box squats (which are basically partial squats). Definitely crazy for him to say partials are best , period.
I love how he made faces after every squat you showed like he was in pain hahaha I had a partial LCL tear two years ago and had issues squatting for a while. Over time though I can say without a doubt in my mind that ATG squats hitting a full ROM starting light and progressively loading more weight my knee feels just as good as before the injury and my squat is also at a lifetime high. Full ROM is great man, get that blood flow to the knee, it's therapeutic! TheKneesOverToesGuy lives by that idea of full ROM and its benefits and dude has amazing results for himself and his clients
I got surgery for ACL and both lateral and menial meniscal tears (longitudinal), about a year and a half ago. Squatting ATG, after many months of mobility training and very light strength training, has been the best thing for it. I started barbell squatting about 7 months ago, and I hit 230 (lb) with a pause earlier today. By no means does that make me some elite-level powerlifter, or even strong enough to brag, but it is fun to be able to squat deeper than people who've never hurt themselves.
Seedman himself eventually relented and admitted that a deep squat in an of itself isn't dangerous, but excess loading IS. How does quarter squatting prevent poor load selection?
110kg for someone that is untrained in that movement is a lot. It's crazy to me how the internet makes it look light because a lot of guys there squat above 200kg fairly easily. Not many people in real life can do that. That's a strength athlete feat and a lot of people disregard anything less than that because a 15 year old from Millwaukee did much more.
@@sananton2821 you can achieve that in a 12 month linear progression. Most people just don't want to train and eat properly, but instead swing some dumbells in front of the mirror and go home. It's not a strength athlete feat.
I was in a car accident about 10 years ago. I fishtailed into a tree and rolled my car multiple times. After 6 months of back and neck pain the only way I could feel better was to lift. Not heavy of course. Full ATG squats and controlled deadlifts is what I believe saved me from a life a pain
I have kyphoscoliosis (not to an insane degree). COVID quarantine, and the subsequent lack of lifting, really proved to me how valuable deadlifting (and lifting in general) is to my quality of life because I suddenly had to live without it; I honestly don’t know the last time before quarantine that my back had been in more pain. I’m old enough now that I know I have no future in competing, but lifting is foundational for me because it makes my physical existence not just tolerable but enjoyable (in addition to all the other benefits).
Agree I waffled a lot in my post but this is it. If an injury causes reduced mobility surely the way is to try and work on mobility,ie full ROM at light weight, progressing over time. I even prioritise Hack squats so deep my glutes touch my calves as can roast my quads without brutal axial load that takes far more of a toll as a 46 lifetime than when I was a 20 something with natural T levels that were far higher.
You executed that interview well. But I"m surprised Joel being pushed around in a wheelchair by Saul Goodman after those dangerous multi-ply depth squats. From a strongman perspective (where you might go through full blocks with a partial movement as your main lift), there is SOME strength to be gotten from that range. It's just going to be specific to the top end, meaning things like your jerk might feel better, but your full range squat might not improve or might actually regress (accessory, like you said). It would also require you handling double-digit reps with weights close to your 1 rep max.... and people don't know what injury risk is until they commit to deep fatigue in an overloaded movement.
I have been squatting atg since I was 11 years old. When I was in seventh grade my weightlifting coach use have me demonstrate as the squat example even though I was the smallest, youngest kid in the class. The form was there. It remained there. And remained healthy. Strengthens me from my neck to my feet. 22 years later, I’m good. Never been injured squatting ever. Imo the thing that injures most people is overload/ego lifting. Not any one full range of motion exercise. A person training in general, should never been in such uncontrollable weight range that a full rom exercise hurts them. Use a spotter if you are super pushing it of course. But if you are truly in control you should be able to bail yourself out without injury. This guy seedman, like Jeff cavalier, aren’t really even specimens enough to preach weight training. 40 / 50 year olds that do like a p90x regimen seem to think just because they are fit, they can tell weightlifters what’s good for them when they are completely out of their element speaking on it. Jeff cavalier talks about killing your gains meanwhile he cannot bench press two plates last I checked. Seedmans squat advice is fugazi.
I went through the comments on his recent post and they were all very positive and supportive of him, even congratulating him on winning all the recent debates, but I noticed something strange. Everyone who was supportive of him left a "god bless" or something like that - "praying for your success" etc. It finally clicked for me. His supporters want dogma and want to be preached to. He's not an athletic coach. He's an athletic pastor. Oh look, he went too heavy too quickly and got knee pain. What a shocker.
Zack, you’re a smart guy and I appreciate the nuance you bring to this platform. That’s really all I have to say, but I don’t think it’s said often enough. I don’t agree with you on everything, but I always value your input. 👍🏻
look man...I'm a 50 year old who started as an Oly lifter and then spent 10 years in strongman....ATG squats (that I learned as an Oly lifter) is the reason my knees are still in great shape while all my buddies from strongman are limping.
Honestly, what Joel did for your program is pretty revealing. He didn’t follow your instructions, went too heavy out of ego, and blamed the bad experience he had on the program. It’s disrespectful and incompetent.
he knows he is basically been exposed even further for the fraud he is yet can't admit it out of ego. He has to put on a facade for his mindless followers
remarkable that his method for the squat doesn’t even replicate a sit to stand from a chair - one of the most well validated measures of general strength and wellness used in PT.
Pretty ironic that Joel said 90degree or less squats are incredible for mobility- yet shows that he isn't capable of an ATG squat (which is almost guaranteed to be due to lack of mobility).
My mobility is amazing, I'm a natural contortionist so my shoulders, elbows, wrists, hands, hips, knees, ankles and toes are wicked flexible. When I squat, if I'm slightly crooked, squatting all the way down will naturally realign my hips and back and get me back in line before I climb out of the hole. Seems to me that quarter reps would be MORE likely to inflict injury, but that's solely from my perspective and the exception doesn't make the rule so I don't know if that really applies.
It's safe to say, based on my evidence of anecdote, that: physiologists, biophysicists, strength and conditioning coaches, and the world's of sport and medicine alike, all owe Joel Seedman an apology.
The problem with full squats is only that past 90 degrees of hip flexion the lumbar rounds, and we dont want to load a rounded lumbar because that will be low back pain. So the shorcut is to lift the heels by up to 2 inches, so that the femur s head has increased room and doesnt run into the pelvis and we can go all the way to atg without loading a rounded lumbar
The way Joel locks out his knees on his squats, it's no wonder he experiences pain. I don't think he's aware that he can contract the glutes at the top of a squat, and not his damn kneecaps.
It gives a false of strength by moving the load quickly, but you are doing it at the most favourable leverage with no training effect. Joel doesn't have a clue...
Quarter squats are just spinal training, legs are not going to take those weight and get stronger (stronger legs are crucial for performance if the performance is the case) And if your ATG squat goes up your quarter is gonna get up too but opposite of it , I don't think so 🙂
Nice video Zack. I feel like the only point that really needed to be made here was that you were able to load up his partials to greater than or equal to your ATG 1RM, whereas he had to drop the weight to 60% of his partial 1RM to barely squat to parallel, since he wasn't used to it. If you train ATG, you'll be strong at every position that you hit throughout the movement pattern, including partials. Whereas if you train partials, you'll be weaker and limited in mobility (as Joel himself proved when attempting your program) while trying to squat ATG (AKA barely to parallel.) Of course that's obvious to most viewers of your channel. Him allegedly getting knee pain and not being able to pick up his shoes, is a result of him being weak in a lower squat position than he's used to. I assume you had no problems with pain while following his program. Though he's just proven his entire dogma to be incorrect, as you said, all he can do is double down as this dogma has become so closely intertwined with his brand ($$$) , and his identity as a human being.
I recently started incorporating 3 second holds at the bottom of my squats and I have to say I have finally started getting stronger on my squat after being in a plateau for months. Glad I found this video.
Super ROM squats helped cure my knee problems in a way nothing else had. My right knee used to blow up like a balloon after squatting or using certain leg machines if my technique wasn't perfect. I took the time to figure out exactly what foot position/spacing was right for me and practiced technique starting with low weight going all the way down until my calf and ham smashed together, slow eccentric. I've made it all the way up to 170x9 at 215 bw. My knee hasn't blown up once and it's been such a relief on my life.
Use it or lose it. Of course Steadman had knee pain and probably could NOT get low because his body never goes there. He's trained himself to be unable to squat deep and it would take serious work over time for him to regain that ability. I bet he squatted ATG when he was a toddler and never gave it a second thought at the time.
What an insane assertion, I have found the complete opposite true in terms of ROM. Used to squat way heavier to parallel (the standard parallel, ie thigh horizontal to the ground) but it did hurt my knees, so intuitively tried to do partials, squat to a box etc etc). Then a very knowledgeable coach took my squat from scratch got me squatting total ATG with bodyweight, really focussing on hinging, loading the glutes, driving the knees out, slow eccentric pausing at the bottom, and driving back up (the hole is always the hardest point, as it should be). Knee pain totally gone and almost back to squatting the same weight I was before, my problem was lack of mobility in the hips not loading my glutes and spreading way to much of the load to me knees, the obvious answer was to improve mobility, the obvious way was to work on my ROM. I do recognise ISO work can be very good for injury prevention and have added some wall sits before squats. Won't even go into the hypertrophy benefits for full ROM (muscles obviously respond to concentric force, but its been shown time and time again that this is trumped by slow eccentric and maximum stretch under load). Again maybe for sports specific force generation partial squats have benefits as an accessory but for hypertrophy, literally none. To piss Joel off more, even my partials on an exercise are from the fully stretched position when I can't complete a lift but can eek a few partials in the stretched position (even better if you have a partner who can assist some forced reps on the concentric portion) but use this sparingly as like myorep, rest/pause drop set etc it can be very taxing
He’s not conditioned to do full range of motion and likely incapable. In my 37 years of resistance training I’ve used partial range only as a method for recovery (post injury) to continue to “feel the weight”. Full ROM was still utilized just reduced loading as my injured self could handle with strict mechanics. Once you loose range of motion it’s so hard to regain that ground.
The only case where atg squat could cause issues is pushing the load too much too early. Keeping pelvic tilt and knee path correct and your chest open is what must be focused on first. I used to have issues when trying to squat deep but now after developing tech, there is ZERO issue with deep squats.
I *absolutely* agree limited ROM is a great accessory for axial loading. This *absolutely* doesn't mean we shouldn't hit depth in our programs, but we should agree partials are a "cheat code" method for increasing load especially towards the end of a training cycle. I would like to see more discussion on the instability aspect of Joel's programming. As someone who has worked primarily with older populations, I'm definitely biased in the direction of stability for fall prevention, and I enjoy mixing balance into my own training (beginning of cycle) for fun & novelty.
I got injured at age 11 due to overtraining my legs. Even though I didn't exactly squat, the majority of my training (Karaté) was to hold 90º and above parallel positions. Not saying it happens for everyone (because my injury, Osgood-Schlatter, isn't extremely common), but I'm pretty sure all my tendons and ligaments got f'ed because of spending so much time in this position - I find the quarter squats to put A LOT more pressure in the knee. After I had surgery, during rehab, you know the exercise that I was ordered to do the most? Full depth squats with support. And, because the surgery didn't cure me, what did my sports orthopedist recommended for lifelong pain relief? Controlled full ROM motions. Due to my physical limitations, I can't do the deepest of ATG, I lost a lot of flexibility with the surgery that never really came back. However, I am much more comfortable and painfree just dunking down and sinking my hips, with pause full squat, as far as they go. I have very rarely used quarter squats precisely like you said, to get used when moving to a new weight, and I know I am in for a world of knee pain when doing it. The only thing where I reduce my ROM is lunges, because I cannot risk my knee touching the floor (patella bump from the surgery).
The deep squat is the best thing I ever did for my training, I used to squat like Joel because I was lazy and uninformed, then I learnt to squat like a weightlifter. Within 3 months of doing that my squat 1RM was up 40kg
Partial reps so you can maintain axial loading probably doesn’t do anything extra for bone density. The force exerted directly on bone via muscle contraction is stronger than any axial load/compressive force you’re putting on the bone with weight placement.
Fr. The case for most who don't squat deep. They are just too lazy and have too much of an ego to drop the weight and train their bodies to perform a deeper squat.
Wii Resort background still goated. Rumors say you chose this dark background to keep the serious tone of the video HOWEVER do not underestimate how serious you'd be viewed with the Wii Resort background. Might break the algorithm
He doesn't know how to squat. He's squatting knee dominant rather than simply drawing his hips back. His methodology is based upon his own kinetic blindness
The thing about quarter squats is that they do actually have a place in explosiveness and athleticism, but 99 percent of the people who preform them have no reason to train these elements. Most people quarter squat because they want to load up an impressive amount of weight at a public gym and pretend they are doing something, and so they can say they squat a number of weight that no one honestly gives a single shit about.
If you're not use to ATG squating or any full ROM exercise you should start VERY LIGHT and get the mobility to execute the exercise properly before going up in weight very much. Don't start ATG suating with 200+lbs... and then complain that your back/knee is hurting.
12 years ago I was injured playing varsity rugby. I had a spiral fracture of my fibular, dislocated my ankle and fractured my talus. 3 operations and about 4 years of rehab to get me back to approximately 90% of my previous rom. I had to start somewhere and quarter squats were part of my rehab, they were absolutely necessary at the time as my rom on my left ankle was dog shit. It motivated me to progress to box squats, so I worked hard on my ankle mobility. The box squats were slightly below 90 and they were the best thing for my rehab. I progressed exponentially. I felt my ankle and feet working as well. My quads and glutes were getting good activation too. Quarter squats have their place but if you're fit and healthy atg all the way.
Quarter squat is better than nothing but not forever. I did similar to you after a back injury. Took about two years and I can do full ROM in squat shoes with no butt wink now. Also do front squats now as well. My rehab started with bodyweight air squats.
I’ve grown up in European lifting halls and I’ve been paying attention to the rise of the “Seedman type” in all facets of fitness, i can’t even express how much I despise these new age charlatans, the reality is a lot of them don’t even believe what they preach, but their “sacred knowledge” model sells and that’s what it comes down to, money instead of integrity, their programs are designed to make their clients feel special more than anything, it’s not about results but marketing, and that’s the athetesis of the field.
Personally, after I decided to just mix atg, 90 degrees and hip crease matching the knee along with mixing back squat and front squat, everything got better My legs got more explosive, my powerlifting numbers went up, my knees and lower back are all good, my movements got more stable, my lower body and core muscles got more evenly developed, my hips are fine... The only thing is that, even when I go for a back squat aiming for hip crease to match the knee height, powerlifting squat setup, workout I do at least one set with ATG form at the end When I do an ATG workout, it's only ATG So, my recommendation for an amateur athlete wanna be like me is to just mix the forms, you don't really need that much specificity It's is cool to hit big numbers, as it is to have power in different ranges of montions and movements, but what is not cool is pain and injury *My recent squat PR was 170kg/~380lbs for 3 reps, back squat with hip crease matching the knee At 90kg/200lbs bodyweight
Hey Zack long time listener. Personal trainer. 10 or so years now own my own small gym and mostly train folks in chronic pain. I myself had a subluxation of my right hip, had a torn labrum, and was assessed with FAI by a chiropractor. Working on my hip stability and enabling myself to be able to do a deep squat was integral to me healing and coming back from my injury i am completely pain free now. I had actually only done 90 degree before because it's all my coaches showed me I was really looking forward to your convo because I work with people 60 plus on average and getting people to do a deep squat and full rom shoulder press is totally doable, safe, and yeah it keeps them safer Long term, more resilient,Mobil, etc. I'm sure you understand all the nuance as to why that is and why joel is so wrong with his messaging. That being said I think this is just a result of capitalism. It forces people "not everyone" to market themselves in a way to make money. If we had solid career paths as trainers I'm sure we wouldn't see as much nonsense like this. I really dream and advocate for a universal system that heavily involves training as a preventative care and medicine. Thanks for spreading your message and debating him. The body Is very adaptable at any stage and possible of overcoming many things, It's important to empower people with our words rather than fear mongering like Joel.
Another quick note. It works. People like Seedman, Vshred, Simeon Panda, etc. All probably know what they're doing is bs. It just makes them alot of money easily. Also on a last note. I worked up to 300 ish on back squat, and had to go to 95 when I started full ROM lol. It requires way more glute and adductor strength that 90 degree squats just don't hit the same.
I get everyone to go to as deep a relative rom as they can go. Everyone's stances etc are slightly different. But the goal is the same. And the benefits are worth it. If I didn't understand what I was doing most of my clients wouldn't be in the 60 plus range and have trained with me for 5 plus years lol. I also never said you shouldn't apply progressive overload differently depending on the individual. If I didn't understand this I wouldn't be a trainer. Anyways, you don't just start full rom all the time depending on the individual, some people can go lower than others, some people have wider stances than others, but all can develop further mobility and tolerances relative to them. I don't think myself (or zack) is claiming everyone will just reap benefits from doing atg right away without the proper training. That's kind of a strawman.
@@jacklauren9359 nowhere in this comment did the OP make the statement that ATG is the only way to squat; he simply said that increased ROM doesn’t have the negative side effects which Seedman claims it does and that it is safe for most people, which it is (saying this as someone who cannot back squat anymore). Make sure you understand the argument you want to argue against in the future.
I squat below parallel, most the time not atg, because I don't want to risk my back going atg, when I think I can handle something but can't, atg for me is more an accessory for quite light loads. Not that I can't build it up, but when the flexibility isn't there yet, it's better to work up to it slowly. Noticably below parallel is much deeper than many squat as it is and it's pretty good all things considered but no it's not atg I'm probably 20-30° away from atg.
Hey Zack can you make a video about Functional Patterns if you have come across them? They seem legit but they diss pretty much all other fitness disciplines such as Yoga, weightlifting and powerlifting etc. 😂 I think you might be interested
Looks like he lacks dorsi flexion as well. He prolly has trouble hitting depth with any weight. Esp working his range of motion, his body mechanics and muscle have adapted to that lack of elasticity. He def didn't put effort into your program. I'm so glad you took it seriously and gave it a good try for science! Love this video!
Quarter squats (fast) are for athletic specific training. Sprinting, jumping, explosiveness. They are more of an in season accessory/impulse day type of thing though.
I question strength training any movement that's not full range of motion. That goes for partial squats, crunches, whatever the hell body builders do, chin reps for pull-ups,non-CTG push-ups, etc. Not to say they won't have their place, but there's something that feels wrong about being strong or powerful only partly through the motion. It's similar to why I'm not a fan of wide or narrow grip bench or push-ups. Something weird putting your arms in a position to deliver power that if you did it as a punch in boxing would be weak or dangerous. Also, that doesn't detract from skill training for a specific sport which might require partial or limited ROM training due to quirks of that sport.
If he is feeling knee pain with full range of motion like full squat he has a problem with everything. Partial rage of motion is something that is used in one part of learning full rage of motion.
If I squat to parallel I have an meniscus injury that hurts. But oddly enough I can do ATG squats without pain. I've been avoiding changing the trajectory in the 90° position. I think compression forces don't bother my knee, where the heightened shear forces of 90° knee flexion does.
ass to grass is good when you have mobility to do it and when you start doing it with an appropriate weight instead of training a lot with parallel level and then just doing atg squats with almost the same weights
Don’t have the mobility to squat atg or are afraid of injury? Solution: double the load and hope you don’t go that 1/8 inch lower where you fold like a cheap metal chair 👍
I didn't know about this guy before but the only time I ever did partial squats was for psychological purposes. And even then I rarely utilized it, preferring deep pause squats instead. They allow one to load the bar more than normal, so you can get a feel for how your target PR weight doesn't feel as intimidating as you may think it is. It doesn't teach you to respect the weight the same way deep pauses do. Nor do you gain explosiveness where you need it most, in the hole.
I did them in college football. I thought they helped me on the field but didn’t cause the fatigue full on back squats would. We’d do full squats in the spring though
Been a personal trainer since 2010, 30-40 client hours a week with less than 6 months off in that time, so conservatively 20000 hours in the field. Joel Seedman is the most disingenuous, arrogantly wrong influencer in the fitness world. He’s like Naudi Aguilar times 100 with a “degree” behind him. Thanks for your good work. Zack.
conversly, you do a little of Ben Patricks/Charles Poliquins Knees Over Toes split squats and leg curls, maybe some loaded elbow.. on knee external rotator exercises with your regular workouts and will see how amazing it feels ;)
4 week, 2 sessions per week squat program is up on my patreon! Patreon.com/Zacktelander
Whaalaa, brother. Doctor Joel Seedman has profoundly indicated truth for function. It is because of him we are stronger and can fight the enemy. Shaaa Allah , praise the blessed one Joel.
🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Yes blessed Joel shala habibi. He has shown the light you just follow Zachary! Don’t fall from it as the blasphemer! Shalah Allahu 🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
I very much agree with you here Zack. I did my masters thesis on comparing squats to 90 degrees vs past parallel and we also saw the same thing there, although the sample size was too small to find major statistically significant differences, in a practical sense, we still saw the past parallel group improve almost twice as much on 1RM at both squat depths than the 90-degree group (in well trained participants). We also see that neural adaptations are not necessarily greater at higher loads if that higher load is allowed through shorter ROM exercise. In terms of muscle hypertrophy, although not very relevant in this setting, we know FOR SURE that deeper squats are superior.
How small a sample size are we talking here? Seeing a variable coefficient that wide spread without being able to draw statistically significance sounds more like noise to me.
Perhaps your PhD could be on growing a big back?
Nice to see I'm not the only psycho that looked for a way to connect their field of study with their favorite pastime (lifting). My masters was more about the psychological side of fitness though.
please tell us more friend :)@@petrinafilip96
So why do you think Rhea (study: 'Joint-angle specific strength adaptations influence improvements in power in highly trained athletes') found that quarter squat was better than full squat for vertical jump and sprint speed in athletic population? Could it be that full squat doesnt train explosiveness as well because the depth dilutes intensity? And so could partial squats be better for people who are more explosive aka the athletic population? There could also be physiological reason for this: people with longer femurs might have trouble using their full potential in full squat.
the truth Big Squat doesn't want you to know about
😂
🤣
Glutes will hate you for exposing this secret.
Nice 🤜🤛
Doctors hate him
I'll preface this by saying that I am 100% in Zack's camp and that I think that Joel is a charlatan and fraud. However, I think it was a little disingenuous for both of these guys to run the other guys program and expect any real feedback from either side, it was obvious from the beginning that:
1. Joel's branding and business success relies on him being steadfast in his methodology
2. Zack's right, he knows he's right, and knew he was going to be right at the conclusion of this experiment
I think it'd be interesting to see two groups of beginner or novice lifters take on Zack's programming and Joel's programming over the course of about 3 months in a coached and monitored environment then tested objectively on strength and athletic performance gains at the end.
Obviously I don't know if this would be feasible, but if possible I think would be the most compelling way to debunk Joel.
I 100% agree with you, but here's the problem, and why frauds will exist in this space forever. Joel can make any number of wild claims and never actually have to properly test his "system" in any real scientific environment or accept the results of any test of his system. Once you go through the effort of disproving one claim which would take months, maybe years of study, research and ludicrous amounts of money, then he can just pivot to a slightly more nuanced claim or find any number of ways to doubt the results. If him and his followers haven't changed their ways based on all the existing research that disproves Seedman's claims, one more study ain't going to convert them. Best case scenario, it just deepens his and his followers' cognitive dissonance.
Unfortunately even in a controlled setting I think it's very likely that Joel would still claim something to the effect of that the demerits of a full ROM squat only become apparent in some arbitrarily long time that isn't feasible to do or that the real benefits can be seen from his NFL athletes or sprinters or some such.
I'm definitely biased and in the full rom crew, but I think it's fair to say Seedman has a lot of practice in producing word salad to make his methods sound more impressive than they probably (definitely) are :/
@@MT-lo4ie you're likely right. But it'd still be interesting to perform the experiment and let people draw their own conclusions. Of course Semen can spin it however he wants.
Very good points, I think the really telling thing here is that Joel didn't even begin to execute Zack's program correctly.
Add "level of joint discomfort" into the study. Or something like that.
This is typical claim seedman makes, that ATG is crippling and such and such.
I was a national level thrower 15-21 & was only taught how to quarter squat (90deg). My knees were fucked by 20, excruciating pain whenever I turned in the ring and I had to retire. At the time I physically was unable to deep squat (didn’t even know what it was).
At 29, 8 years of self taught rehab, 5 years learning how to ATG squat.
Deep squatting is an expression of a healthy & strong body.
Quarter squatting is a representation of peak power in a very short range.
Not everyone needs to quarter squat, athletes should sometimes. But everyone needs to ATG squat
This is a really good comment because it doesn’t state that quarter squatting is de facto wrong all the time (and I say this as an ATG die hard). There can be value to quarter squatting - DEPENDENT ON CONTEXT AND INDIVIDUAL, but the vast majority of people lifting weights will never need to do so.
Hit the nail on the head, pretty much everything has a time & place, Seedy seems to be saying that the time & place is always. @@deficitstifflegzercherdeadlift
The most reasonable take
Yep couldn't agree more. Quarter squat great for short ROM power expression but should never be done as your only squat. Front or back ATG squat so fucking good
So atg is better for knee health than parelel??
After I started doing Joel Seedman's 90-degree Eccentric Isometrics, all of my credit card debt disappeared and the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to my dog.
In my eyes the quarter squat is death to knees. Load is high and sheering forces are greatest at that point where you go from eccentric to concentric.
Accessory moment sure, but done in absence of full ROM squats is asking for trouble.
I started doing quarter squats instead of atg and my squat doubled. Thank you, Joel Seedman.
Lmfao
😂
It should be quadrupled
@@19mduffy hahaha
😂
I’ve said this elsewhere and I stand by it - I’m convinced Seedman got hurt squatting and never emotionally recovered. Dude seemed genuinely scared when Zack suggested that squat atg
Can't agree with you more man
Exactely what I thought. If you watch the end of the interview he got so scared that he has to do atg squats…
@@christoft.2580he literally did look scared.
Quarter squats have been quite useful for me when getting sprinters ready for track meets, looking to maintain strength, minimize fatigue, and keep the bar acceleration rapid & brief. But for actually developing a strength base, larger ranges of motion are the go-to.
Typically we run a lot slower when doing deep squats, much faster when doing quarter squats. It’s not that the quarter squats make us faster, but they’re less disruptive both mechanically and neurologically than the deep squats are.
If the lifting a sprinter is doing has a very long time to peak velocity, say 800ms, when they have less than 100ms to produce force on the ground each step, the rate of force development during sprinting often suffers temporarily. Quarter squats and other reduced ROM lifts help keep the TPV closer to the time frames we have to develop force in sprinting & jumping events.
So once a base of max strength is developed through bigger ROM lifts, the shorter ROM helps keep RFD time frames closer to the demands of the event while still offering a way to maintain enough strength from what was developed with larger ROM movements.
I don’t use them with everybody but they do have some uses. Either way the absolutist approach to any exercise or ROM is kind of wack and narrow minded imo.
this should be pinned
I think you are bring up to this conversation something that I believe is exactly the root of the issue.... Purpose or intent of training. If the argument is for which of the two variants is best for X, then both will have their own pros and cons. But if the argument is based on 1 specific goal (ex. pure raw strength) then one side will hands down dominates the conversation... and it's not Joel's 😉
Thing is, you use it for a very specific purpose. They had us do box squats in football to work on explosiveness. But if his take is that partials are the best and ATG is the worst from an injury perspective, I’d argue the opposite on that. One being that usually ATG requires much more discipline and mileage to perfect, and you can’t lift as heavy going full range.
With partial, any beginner can load their spine and act like they’re lifting heavy at the cost of hurting themselves, not to mention you can’t learn good form starting heavy.
@@xkben90 yeah, I’m not trying to affirm Joel’s take. His training is odd to me. Just sharing an experience.
@@ATHLETE.X yeah I understood your take! I was partly defending your point for sprinters by adding the fact that they have football players do box squats (which are basically partial squats).
Definitely crazy for him to say partials are best , period.
"If it’s too heavy to squat below parallel, it’s too heavy to have on your back." - Mark Rippetoe
“If you could explain that in a little more depth”, not sure if intentional but I found your wording hilarious.
😂😂😂😂
I get the feeling that Joel knows he's wrong about a lot of things, but he could never admit to it.
Completely, problem for him now is the bread on his table was earned with this nonsense and he cannot back out now.
Pride is the root of all evil
A lot of wise people in this thread, carry on
I love how he made faces after every squat you showed like he was in pain hahaha I had a partial LCL tear two years ago and had issues squatting for a while. Over time though I can say without a doubt in my mind that ATG squats hitting a full ROM starting light and progressively loading more weight my knee feels just as good as before the injury and my squat is also at a lifetime high. Full ROM is great man, get that blood flow to the knee, it's therapeutic! TheKneesOverToesGuy lives by that idea of full ROM and its benefits and dude has amazing results for himself and his clients
I got surgery for ACL and both lateral and menial meniscal tears (longitudinal), about a year and a half ago. Squatting ATG, after many months of mobility training and very light strength training, has been the best thing for it. I started barbell squatting about 7 months ago, and I hit 230 (lb) with a pause earlier today. By no means does that make me some elite-level powerlifter, or even strong enough to brag, but it is fun to be able to squat deeper than people who've never hurt themselves.
Seedman himself eventually relented and admitted that a deep squat in an of itself isn't dangerous, but excess loading IS. How does quarter squatting prevent poor load selection?
110kg isn't a lot, but showing that he started at that w/o full ROM shows that he can't get down all the way with just a bar
He's salty he can't squat much so this whole thing is a facade to hide his fragile ego
110kg for someone that is untrained in that movement is a lot. It's crazy to me how the internet makes it look light because a lot of guys there squat above 200kg fairly easily.
Not many people in real life can do that. That's a strength athlete feat and a lot of people disregard anything less than that because a 15 year old from Millwaukee did much more.
@@derKischda "strength athlete feat"... what?
@@alexvisan7622 mid 200s on a pause atg is not something you see every day in the gym.
@@sananton2821 you can achieve that in a 12 month linear progression. Most people just don't want to train and eat properly, but instead swing some dumbells in front of the mirror and go home. It's not a strength athlete feat.
I was in a car accident about 10 years ago. I fishtailed into a tree and rolled my car multiple times. After 6 months of back and neck pain the only way I could feel better was to lift. Not heavy of course. Full ATG squats and controlled deadlifts is what I believe saved me from a life a pain
I have kyphoscoliosis (not to an insane degree). COVID quarantine, and the subsequent lack of lifting, really proved to me how valuable deadlifting (and lifting in general) is to my quality of life because I suddenly had to live without it; I honestly don’t know the last time before quarantine that my back had been in more pain. I’m old enough now that I know I have no future in competing, but lifting is foundational for me because it makes my physical existence not just tolerable but enjoyable (in addition to all the other benefits).
Agree I waffled a lot in my post but this is it. If an injury causes reduced mobility surely the way is to try and work on mobility,ie full ROM at light weight, progressing over time. I even prioritise Hack squats so deep my glutes touch my calves as can roast my quads without brutal axial load that takes far more of a toll as a 46 lifetime than when I was a 20 something with natural T levels that were far higher.
I love how he didn't even do full depth 4 second eccentric 3 second pause squats in Zacks program lol
Not even close aye, I wonder if any reps actually saw his hip crease parallel with his knees, let alone below.
Dude was purposely squatting to parallel lmao
You executed that interview well. But I"m surprised Joel being pushed around in a wheelchair by Saul Goodman after those dangerous multi-ply depth squats.
From a strongman perspective (where you might go through full blocks with a partial movement as your main lift), there is SOME strength to be gotten from that range. It's just going to be specific to the top end, meaning things like your jerk might feel better, but your full range squat might not improve or might actually regress (accessory, like you said). It would also require you handling double-digit reps with weights close to your 1 rep max.... and people don't know what injury risk is until they commit to deep fatigue in an overloaded movement.
I have been squatting atg since I was 11 years old. When I was in seventh grade my weightlifting coach use have me demonstrate as the squat example even though I was the smallest, youngest kid in the class. The form was there. It remained there. And remained healthy. Strengthens me from my neck to my feet. 22 years later, I’m good. Never been injured squatting ever. Imo the thing that injures most people is overload/ego lifting. Not any one full range of motion exercise. A person training in general, should never been in such uncontrollable weight range that a full rom exercise hurts them. Use a spotter if you are super pushing it of course. But if you are truly in control you should be able to bail yourself out without injury. This guy seedman, like Jeff cavalier, aren’t really even specimens enough to preach weight training. 40 / 50 year olds that do like a p90x regimen seem to think just because they are fit, they can tell weightlifters what’s good for them when they are completely out of their element speaking on it. Jeff cavalier talks about killing your gains meanwhile he cannot bench press two plates last I checked. Seedmans squat advice is fugazi.
I bet your legs looks like toothpicks too 😅
I went through the comments on his recent post and they were all very positive and supportive of him, even congratulating him on winning all the recent debates, but I noticed something strange. Everyone who was supportive of him left a "god bless" or something like that - "praying for your success" etc. It finally clicked for me. His supporters want dogma and want to be preached to. He's not an athletic coach. He's an athletic pastor.
Oh look, he went too heavy too quickly and got knee pain. What a shocker.
Zack, you’re a smart guy and I appreciate the nuance you bring to this platform. That’s really all I have to say, but I don’t think it’s said often enough. I don’t agree with you on everything, but I always value your input. 👍🏻
look man...I'm a 50 year old who started as an Oly lifter and then spent 10 years in strongman....ATG squats (that I learned as an Oly lifter) is the reason my knees are still in great shape while all my buddies from strongman are limping.
Agree full range squats is useful for knee mobility and flexibility but bodyweight squat can serve this purpose.
@@dennisrobinson8008 not if you want some nice leg muscles
Honestly, what Joel did for your program is pretty revealing. He didn’t follow your instructions, went too heavy out of ego, and blamed the bad experience he had on the program. It’s disrespectful and incompetent.
he knows he is basically been exposed even further for the fraud he is yet can't admit it out of ego. He has to put on a facade for his mindless followers
remarkable that his method for the squat doesn’t even replicate a sit to stand from a chair - one of the most well validated measures of general strength and wellness used in PT.
Pretty ironic that Joel said 90degree or less squats are incredible for mobility- yet shows that he isn't capable of an ATG squat (which is almost guaranteed to be due to lack of mobility).
My mobility is amazing, I'm a natural contortionist so my shoulders, elbows, wrists, hands, hips, knees, ankles and toes are wicked flexible. When I squat, if I'm slightly crooked, squatting all the way down will naturally realign my hips and back and get me back in line before I climb out of the hole.
Seems to me that quarter reps would be MORE likely to inflict injury, but that's solely from my perspective and the exception doesn't make the rule so I don't know if that really applies.
There is a difference between mobility & flexibility. Just saying
Joel seedman was sore after doing deeper squats - no shit, he actually worked hard for a change lol.
I quarter squatted and now I sprint at 25 mph, run a 3.9 40 and slam dunk at 5'8" and 315 pounds
Same, I also managed to reverse grip bench 500 lbs
But I'm 6'5, not 5'8, and with an head full of hair
you quarter squatted and now you're 5'8"😞
I can confirm this, I was the basketball
It's safe to say, based on my evidence of anecdote, that: physiologists, biophysicists, strength and conditioning coaches, and the world's of sport and medicine alike, all owe Joel Seedman an apology.
The knee pain and inability to put on his shoes was him experiencing DOMS for the first time
Seedman lacks mobility, and he could be just lazy (not wanting to improve it)... translation, he is making BS excuse to avoid improving
The problem with full squats is only that past 90 degrees of hip flexion the lumbar rounds, and we dont want to load a rounded lumbar because that will be low back pain. So the shorcut is to lift the heels by up to 2 inches, so that the femur s head has increased room and doesnt run into the pelvis and we can go all the way to atg without loading a rounded lumbar
The way Joel locks out his knees on his squats, it's no wonder he experiences pain. I don't think he's aware that he can contract the glutes at the top of a squat, and not his damn kneecaps.
He snaps all his movements, it's weird
It gives a false of strength by moving the load quickly, but you are doing it at the most favourable leverage with no training effect. Joel doesn't have a clue...
Holy shit you survived
Quarter squats are just spinal training, legs are not going to take those weight and get stronger (stronger legs are crucial for performance if the performance is the case)
And if your ATG squat goes up your quarter is gonna get up too but opposite of it , I don't think so 🙂
I started doing quarter squats instead of atg and ran a sub 2hour marathon
Nice video Zack.
I feel like the only point that really needed to be made here was that you were able to load up his partials to greater than or equal to your ATG 1RM, whereas he had to drop the weight to 60% of his partial 1RM to barely squat to parallel, since he wasn't used to it.
If you train ATG, you'll be strong at every position that you hit throughout the movement pattern, including partials. Whereas if you train partials, you'll be weaker and limited in mobility (as Joel himself proved when attempting your program) while trying to squat ATG (AKA barely to parallel.) Of course that's obvious to most viewers of your channel.
Him allegedly getting knee pain and not being able to pick up his shoes, is a result of him being weak in a lower squat position than he's used to. I assume you had no problems with pain while following his program.
Though he's just proven his entire dogma to be incorrect, as you said, all he can do is double down as this dogma has become so closely intertwined with his brand ($$$) , and his identity as a human being.
I just don’t understand why there’s a huge amount of people who idolise Joel
I recently started incorporating 3 second holds at the bottom of my squats and I have to say I have finally started getting stronger on my squat after being in a plateau for months. Glad I found this video.
Dude is a literal meme, please let me see how well you mogged him
Super ROM squats helped cure my knee problems in a way nothing else had. My right knee used to blow up like a balloon after squatting or using certain leg machines if my technique wasn't perfect. I took the time to figure out exactly what foot position/spacing was right for me and practiced technique starting with low weight going all the way down until my calf and ham smashed together, slow eccentric. I've made it all the way up to 170x9 at 215 bw. My knee hasn't blown up once and it's been such a relief on my life.
Use it or lose it. Of course Steadman had knee pain and probably could NOT get low because his body never goes there. He's trained himself to be unable to squat deep and it would take serious work over time for him to regain that ability. I bet he squatted ATG when he was a toddler and never gave it a second thought at the time.
huge respect for how u tackled and dealt with this situation, methodical and tactful af
I always remember Christian Thibideau saying he could quarter squat the world - which always gives me a wee chuckle
What an insane assertion, I have found the complete opposite true in terms of ROM. Used to squat way heavier to parallel (the standard parallel, ie thigh horizontal to the ground) but it did hurt my knees, so intuitively tried to do partials, squat to a box etc etc). Then a very knowledgeable coach took my squat from scratch got me squatting total ATG with bodyweight, really focussing on hinging, loading the glutes, driving the knees out, slow eccentric pausing at the bottom, and driving back up (the hole is always the hardest point, as it should be). Knee pain totally gone and almost back to squatting the same weight I was before, my problem was lack of mobility in the hips not loading my glutes and spreading way to much of the load to me knees, the obvious answer was to improve mobility, the obvious way was to work on my ROM. I do recognise ISO work can be very good for injury prevention and have added some wall sits before squats. Won't even go into the hypertrophy benefits for full ROM (muscles obviously respond to concentric force, but its been shown time and time again that this is trumped by slow eccentric and maximum stretch under load). Again maybe for sports specific force generation partial squats have benefits as an accessory but for hypertrophy, literally none. To piss Joel off more, even my partials on an exercise are from the fully stretched position when I can't complete a lift but can eek a few partials in the stretched position (even better if you have a partner who can assist some forced reps on the concentric portion) but use this sparingly as like myorep, rest/pause drop set etc it can be very taxing
I gotta say Zack, your taste in video games as shown by the backgrounds is *chefs kiss*
He’s not conditioned to do full range of motion and likely incapable. In my 37 years of resistance training I’ve used partial range only as a method for recovery (post injury) to continue to “feel the weight”. Full ROM was still utilized just reduced loading as my injured self could handle with strict mechanics. Once you loose range of motion it’s so hard to regain that ground.
The only case where atg squat could cause issues is pushing the load too much too early. Keeping pelvic tilt and knee path correct and your chest open is what must be focused on first. I used to have issues when trying to squat deep but now after developing tech, there is ZERO issue with deep squats.
I agree. The counter argument is that people can push the weight quicker on the quarter squat giving them more time to train the sport.
When your squat is basically a push press
I *absolutely* agree limited ROM is a great accessory for axial loading. This *absolutely* doesn't mean we shouldn't hit depth in our programs, but we should agree partials are a "cheat code" method for increasing load especially towards the end of a training cycle.
I would like to see more discussion on the instability aspect of Joel's programming. As someone who has worked primarily with older populations, I'm definitely biased in the direction of stability for fall prevention, and I enjoy mixing balance into my own training (beginning of cycle) for fun & novelty.
I got injured at age 11 due to overtraining my legs. Even though I didn't exactly squat, the majority of my training (Karaté) was to hold 90º and above parallel positions.
Not saying it happens for everyone (because my injury, Osgood-Schlatter, isn't extremely common), but I'm pretty sure all my tendons and ligaments got f'ed because of spending so much time in this position - I find the quarter squats to put A LOT more pressure in the knee.
After I had surgery, during rehab, you know the exercise that I was ordered to do the most? Full depth squats with support. And, because the surgery didn't cure me, what did my sports orthopedist recommended for lifelong pain relief? Controlled full ROM motions.
Due to my physical limitations, I can't do the deepest of ATG, I lost a lot of flexibility with the surgery that never really came back. However, I am much more comfortable and painfree just dunking down and sinking my hips, with pause full squat, as far as they go. I have very rarely used quarter squats precisely like you said, to get used when moving to a new weight, and I know I am in for a world of knee pain when doing it. The only thing where I reduce my ROM is lunges, because I cannot risk my knee touching the floor (patella bump from the surgery).
The deep squat is the best thing I ever did for my training, I used to squat like Joel because I was lazy and uninformed, then I learnt to squat like a weightlifter. Within 3 months of doing that my squat 1RM was up 40kg
Great Video! I like your open dialogue
The fact Joel thinks that is a deep squat is hilarious
Partial reps so you can maintain axial loading probably doesn’t do anything extra for bone density. The force exerted directly on bone via muscle contraction is stronger than any axial load/compressive force you’re putting on the bone with weight placement.
It's also clear that Seedman does not possess the mobility to go ass to grass. His ankles and hips don't let him.
Fr. The case for most who don't squat deep. They are just too lazy and have too much of an ego to drop the weight and train their bodies to perform a deeper squat.
@@mitch5944 I would also argue that it’s painful to get into a deep squat. People usually avoid pain and are afraid to hurt their knees.
Wii Resort background still goated. Rumors say you chose this dark background to keep the serious tone of the video HOWEVER do not underestimate how serious you'd be viewed with the Wii Resort background. Might break the algorithm
He doesn't know how to squat. He's squatting knee dominant rather than simply drawing his hips back. His methodology is based upon his own kinetic blindness
The thing about quarter squats is that they do actually have a place in explosiveness and athleticism, but 99 percent of the people who preform them have no reason to train these elements. Most people quarter squat because they want to load up an impressive amount of weight at a public gym and pretend they are doing something, and so they can say they squat a number of weight that no one honestly gives a single shit about.
If you're not use to ATG squating or any full ROM exercise you should start VERY LIGHT and get the mobility to execute the exercise properly before going up in weight very much. Don't start ATG suating with 200+lbs... and then complain that your back/knee is hurting.
Loving the Unreal music
Two people, who think each other is full of sh*t, do each other's programs with zero buy-in... What could go wrong?
12 years ago I was injured playing varsity rugby. I had a spiral fracture of my fibular, dislocated my ankle and fractured my talus. 3 operations and about 4 years of rehab to get me back to approximately 90% of my previous rom. I had to start somewhere and quarter squats were part of my rehab, they were absolutely necessary at the time as my rom on my left ankle was dog shit. It motivated me to progress to box squats, so I worked hard on my ankle mobility. The box squats were slightly below 90 and they were the best thing for my rehab. I progressed exponentially. I felt my ankle and feet working as well. My quads and glutes were getting good activation too. Quarter squats have their place but if you're fit and healthy atg all the way.
Quarter squat is better than nothing but not forever. I did similar to you after a back injury. Took about two years and I can do full ROM in squat shoes with no butt wink now. Also do front squats now as well. My rehab started with bodyweight air squats.
fibular??
Not a place I expected to hear the unreal tournament 99 soundtrack but I'm definitely pleased.
Seedman's method is great for ego lifting. Sometimes my ego needs boosting.
Love the tournament theme song at the end
100% agree. ATG back squats, and ATG split squats (shout out to kneesovertoesguy
I’ve grown up in European lifting halls and I’ve been paying attention to the rise of the “Seedman type” in all facets of fitness, i can’t even express how much I despise these new age charlatans, the reality is a lot of them don’t even believe what they preach, but their “sacred knowledge” model sells and that’s what it comes down to, money instead of integrity, their programs are designed to make their clients feel special more than anything, it’s not about results but marketing, and that’s the athetesis of the field.
the main use i can see with a limited rom squat is force output specific to 2 leg jumping.
Personally, after I decided to just mix atg, 90 degrees and hip crease matching the knee along with mixing back squat and front squat, everything got better
My legs got more explosive, my powerlifting numbers went up, my knees and lower back are all good, my movements got more stable, my lower body and core muscles got more evenly developed, my hips are fine...
The only thing is that, even when I go for a back squat aiming for hip crease to match the knee height, powerlifting squat setup, workout I do at least one set with ATG form at the end
When I do an ATG workout, it's only ATG
So, my recommendation for an amateur athlete wanna be like me is to just mix the forms, you don't really need that much specificity
It's is cool to hit big numbers, as it is to have power in different ranges of montions and movements, but what is not cool is pain and injury
*My recent squat PR was 170kg/~380lbs for 3 reps, back squat with hip crease matching the knee
At 90kg/200lbs bodyweight
Hey Zack long time listener. Personal trainer. 10 or so years now own my own small gym and mostly train folks in chronic pain. I myself had a subluxation of my right hip, had a torn labrum, and was assessed with FAI by a chiropractor. Working on my hip stability and enabling myself to be able to do a deep squat was integral to me healing and coming back from my injury i am completely pain free now. I had actually only done 90 degree before because it's all my coaches showed me I was really looking forward to your convo because I work with people 60 plus on average and getting people to do a deep squat and full rom shoulder press is totally doable, safe, and yeah it keeps them safer Long term, more resilient,Mobil, etc. I'm sure you understand all the nuance as to why that is and why joel is so wrong with his messaging. That being said I think this is just a result of capitalism. It forces people "not everyone" to market themselves in a way to make money. If we had solid career paths as trainers I'm sure we wouldn't see as much nonsense like this. I really dream and advocate for a universal system that heavily involves training as a preventative care and medicine. Thanks for spreading your message and debating him. The body Is very adaptable at any stage and possible of overcoming many things, It's important to empower people with our words rather than fear mongering like Joel.
Another quick note. It works. People like Seedman, Vshred, Simeon Panda, etc. All probably know what they're doing is bs. It just makes them alot of money easily. Also on a last note. I worked up to 300 ish on back squat, and had to go to 95 when I started full ROM lol. It requires way more glute and adductor strength that 90 degree squats just don't hit the same.
I get everyone to go to as deep a relative rom as they can go. Everyone's stances etc are slightly different. But the goal is the same. And the benefits are worth it. If I didn't understand what I was doing most of my clients wouldn't be in the 60 plus range and have trained with me for 5 plus years lol. I also never said you shouldn't apply progressive overload differently depending on the individual. If I didn't understand this I wouldn't be a trainer. Anyways, you don't just start full rom all the time depending on the individual, some people can go lower than others, some people have wider stances than others, but all can develop further mobility and tolerances relative to them. I don't think myself (or zack) is claiming everyone will just reap benefits from doing atg right away without the proper training. That's kind of a strawman.
@@jacklauren9359 nowhere in this comment did the OP make the statement that ATG is the only way to squat; he simply said that increased ROM doesn’t have the negative side effects which Seedman claims it does and that it is safe for most people, which it is (saying this as someone who cannot back squat anymore).
Make sure you understand the argument you want to argue against in the future.
16:33 Unreal Tournament!
Btw squatting deep is as complex as is doing cleans, it requires tremendous amount of skill and mobility.
I actually disagree. It's only because people are taught never to squat atg that the average person lacks the ankle and hip mobility to do as such.
@@Blobbyo25 But taught where? They dont teach any exercise tehnique in primary school nor in high school.
@@tarmoherranen4166 In the UK they do PE throughout all ages of school... Where are you from that doesn't do any??
I squat below parallel, most the time not atg, because I don't want to risk my back going atg, when I think I can handle something but can't, atg for me is more an accessory for quite light loads. Not that I can't build it up, but when the flexibility isn't there yet, it's better to work up to it slowly. Noticably below parallel is much deeper than many squat as it is and it's pretty good all things considered but no it's not atg I'm probably 20-30° away from atg.
The ending conclusion Zach, on adaptation is a pure truth. Train to be resilient, anti fragile.
the poster of himself behind him fucking sent me 😂
This is why I’m subscribed fuck ya
GOLDED words at the end, fitness industry makes wrong turn, "dont be scared homie"
Hey Zack can you make a video about Functional Patterns if you have come across them? They seem legit but they diss pretty much all other fitness disciplines such as Yoga, weightlifting and powerlifting etc. 😂 I think you might be interested
i act like i have to pick up quarter with my ass checks
Looks like he lacks dorsi flexion as well. He prolly has trouble hitting depth with any weight. Esp working his range of motion, his body mechanics and muscle have adapted to that lack of elasticity. He def didn't put effort into your program. I'm so glad you took it seriously and gave it a good try for science! Love this video!
To be fair, if you are a field/court athlete, quarter squats are 100% necessary coupled with full ROM squats
That is what he said
Quarter squats (fast) are for athletic specific training. Sprinting, jumping, explosiveness. They are more of an in season accessory/impulse day type of thing though.
This video has so much lore behind it, it’s insane
I question strength training any movement that's not full range of motion. That goes for partial squats, crunches, whatever the hell body builders do, chin reps for pull-ups,non-CTG push-ups, etc. Not to say they won't have their place, but there's something that feels wrong about being strong or powerful only partly through the motion. It's similar to why I'm not a fan of wide or narrow grip bench or push-ups. Something weird putting your arms in a position to deliver power that if you did it as a punch in boxing would be weak or dangerous. Also, that doesn't detract from skill training for a specific sport which might require partial or limited ROM training due to quirks of that sport.
Great work.
If he is feeling knee pain with full range of motion like full squat he has a problem with everything. Partial rage of motion is something that is used in one part of learning full rage of motion.
If I squat to parallel I have an meniscus injury that hurts. But oddly enough I can do ATG squats without pain. I've been avoiding changing the trajectory in the 90° position. I think compression forces don't bother my knee, where the heightened shear forces of 90° knee flexion does.
ass to grass is good when you have mobility to do it and when you start doing it with an appropriate weight instead of training a lot with parallel level and then just doing atg squats with almost the same weights
Don’t have the mobility to squat atg or are afraid of injury? Solution: double the load and hope you don’t go that 1/8 inch lower where you fold like a cheap metal chair 👍
I didn't know about this guy before but the only time I ever did partial squats was for psychological purposes. And even then I rarely utilized it, preferring deep pause squats instead. They allow one to load the bar more than normal, so you can get a feel for how your target PR weight doesn't feel as intimidating as you may think it is. It doesn't teach you to respect the weight the same way deep pauses do. Nor do you gain explosiveness where you need it most, in the hole.
I did them in college football. I thought they helped me on the field but didn’t cause the fatigue full on back squats would. We’d do full squats in the spring though
I’m 63 years old started at 13 years old squatting full range no injuries from doing so 🏋️♀️
Just look at the billions of people outside the US who can full squat into their 90s+
Been a personal trainer since 2010, 30-40 client hours a week with less than 6 months off in that time, so conservatively 20000 hours in the field. Joel Seedman is the most disingenuous, arrogantly wrong influencer in the fitness world. He’s like Naudi Aguilar times 100 with a “degree” behind him.
Thanks for your good work. Zack.
This is interesting, given the knees over toes guy gaining massive popularity these days
Its never to late to learn and improve
Zach, you need to stream on youtube or twitch you would absolutely be crazy good at it
Seedman squats like a beginner where he shoots his knees back and maintains posterior pelvic tilt. Big beginner energy
Can’t wait to see Joel come back and say your full squat program didn’t do anything for him like a 🤡
But Zack..... Did you even read the article?
conversly, you do a little of Ben Patricks/Charles Poliquins Knees Over Toes split squats and leg curls, maybe some loaded elbow.. on knee external rotator exercises with your regular workouts and will see how amazing it feels ;)
*** just to add.. So its funny, you can see he has some really tight calves!!! I m not even sure he can do ass to grass