@damsen978 Planetside 2 and Ultrakill are some of the deadest games out there lol. Granted, Quake is kinda dead, but it doesn't negate his skill level bro.
@damsen978 Well, before commenting I actually looked up the player counts of all the games we're talking about here. But I guess there's no point arguing with you because it's impossible to convince you otherwise. So why bother? lmao
@@jorrell279 You just somehow topped something stupid with something even more stupid, I can't contribute more to this conversation but I just wanna say that.
The biggest issue for MnK is not screenshaking, it's not visual clutter. Imo it's bullet punch. When you get shot at it makes your aim shake and jitter uncontrollably. This isn't an issue for controller players who stay locked onto the target, but it messes up your aim on MnK. Ditch bullet punch and reduce visual clutter and it solves a lot of problems for MnK
This is a good point. I don't think aimpunch is inherently bad... and I think it's needed to offset snipers getting shot in the face and just turning to you like a turret and 1-shotting you to the head. BUT the aim assist should take a hit during the aimpunch 100%.
well said - especially on burst weapons imo.. controller basically simulates burst shots as 1 single bullet in most cases even with the visual clutter/aim punch
If a large portion of mnk pro players suddenly switch to controller, the AA is too strong. Simple as that. There is no competitive shooter where people change from years of mnk to controller, except there is AA on controllers.
Yeah. It is the same exact thing in any professionally played game. If a class/build is so strong in PvP, that everyone needs to play it, it should probably be nerfed. If a card in a TCG/CCG is so strong, you need to play it on a professional level to compete, it should probably be banned or restricted. If a mechanic like Aim Assist in shooters is so strong, that professionals are switching over to it, after playing mouse and keyboard for years, sometimes decades in various other shooter games, than Aim Assist is too strong. The argument is, that everyone should be able to play the way they want to play. Correct. That's why Aim Assist should be nerfed or maybe even removed. If Aim Assist is so strong, that it's stronger than MnK, I can't play the way I want to play, if I want to compete (in my case, I don't care about competing, I'm just making an argument here).
i remember when apex first came out, there was a way to turn down the muzzle flash by going into the game files. It was crazy how much better the game felt when you werent constantly being flash banged by your own weapon.
Ironically, it actually made the game significantly worse as a BR. Meant that there was far less disadvantage to full auto weapons in certain situations and less reason to get attachments. Instantly killed gun balance and they've been trying to fix it ever since, because it's just too easy to beam with smgs and full auto ARs. AA on controllers is just the next step on from that.
@@Fool_xo I mean, good (for the most part). The example here wasn't a crucial tweak that needed to be made to get basic performance (such as with tweaking net rate in counter strike) but an outright exploit. Was basically just straight up cheating. The controller situation now and RJN's suggestions for fixing it come at a very different time in the game's state than when muzzle flash was still so amped up.
Truth is when the MNK player switches to controller they'll realize AA isn't op and they are just crybabies that sucked. 60% of pros in ALGS are on MNK. MNK is still better than controller overall.
"but if the best players in the game switch to the worse input, then clearly something is wrong" THANK YOU, finally someone other than me said it "mouse and keyboard have so many advantages to be the better input" I kinda disagree, or more like, rephrase it: mouse and keyboard limit the players mechanical skills the least amount/they are the most representative of a player's skill level Personally, I think the advantage of controllers should be price and comfort (no need for desk, or not even a cable), for casuals it's perfect But if you want to test your limits M&K should be the way to go I don't understand how someone with a healthy competitive integrity would rather use the more hindering input but with software assistance over the input that actually represents their human abilities better. They are not esport athletes, they are business men
They aren't athlete's stop calling them that they definitely deserve to be called pros and to be respected but they don't deserve the title of athlete that's silly and ridiculous. Athlete: a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise. Physical being the key word.
Shroud said it perfectly couple years ago, if it's money on the line like in a tournament every player should play on the same input like controller vs controller or m&k vs m&k. If you don't do that you create an un-even setting to play in which will hurt the tournament.
The slowdown from getting hit by bullets is another factor in favor of controller players. It isn't enough that I get beamed with way higher accuracy than would be possible on MnK, but I will also not be able to reach cover a meter a way, because I will be completely glued to the ground with so many hits on me.
It's ridiculous right now in Warzone 2 with any kind of explosion. You land on the far edge of a grenade? You sprint past a mine? Prepare to walk at turtle speed for about 5 seconds.
Aim assist used to slow your sensitivity down when you were aiming over people, nowadays it's just an aim bot. It's hard to remove aim bot once you have had it for so long, you'd have to slowly reduce it over time so the general players don't notice and get used to having to aim themselves slowly. Visual clutter has gotten really bad recently in games, everyone needs flashy shit for some reason now.
Aimbot locks on a target and don't unlock aim assist isn't sticky it just guides you a bit but aimlocking you can't lock on with aim assist from 500m away aim assist i
@@coach-This, try being in a close range fight where both you and you’re opponent are using a teammate knockdown shield as cover. It’s so hard to hold you’re aim at the edge of their shield for when they peak. Aim assist freaks out and doesn’t know what to do and the fight ultimately ends up turning into a sustained dps war of who can dps the shield first to kill the player behind it.
Apex has two different kinds of AA. Standard slow down and rotational. Putting them together is why it's busted. At the end of the day the leaderboards should overwhelming favor MNK in shooters, that's just the reality of physics when looking at the two different inputs. If the data doesn't show that, the software is compensating for things at a consistent rate that MNK players can't. That's the single thing most people miss with AA, it literally never stops working as intended. It never gets "tired".
I have some thoughts as an mnk player that's tried roller in apex. I agree with some takes. Controller takes significantly less time to learn to be GOOD at than mnk does. In order to be at a competitive level on mnk, that usually takes thousands of hours worth of time. That's the discrepancy and what people do not like about roller; the significant lack of effort in order to reach a high level. Just leaves a bitter taste in peoples mouths. Rotational AA is majority the issue with controller, the zero ms reaction time that will practically aim for the player. I don't agree that someone's dad that came home from their 9-5 should be able to 1clip with ease with .4 or .6 just because they have it. It's not skill. It's not balanced. I do agree about the visual clutter in this game. It's horrific and another reason why roller has an advantage. Bullet is right about rotational AA, it needs to be tweaked or removed. No one needs as much AA as they currently have
U look hot as F..... I rather hang out with u than play APEX for sure.... With all these aimbot like aim assist players.... I haven't played a game without saying "F aim aissist!!!"
I never thought I would hear a day where pro players had to switch to a controller in an fps game to be competitive. I do understand the input of having fun and an even playing field of non-competitive game modes and I am all for it if it makes the community more connected/makes it easier for friends to play together. However, this should never be a deciding factor for competitive gaming and I am quite shocked that this is a thing. Great content as always.
I believe removing screen clutter and screen shake is a big win if possible. What i would say is gyro controllers are becoming more and more accurate. I have seen some very impressive aimers on gyro controllers and still abusing AA. Controllers havent innovated in a long time in regards to aiming. I believe if the likes of sony and microsoft make gyro controllers this would allow for a significant AA nerf and start helping to level the playing field. Some games like Halo and MW2 the AA is even stronger than apex! Also in MW2 the screen shake and screen clutter is insane. Something has to be done to help level things out. I aim train and practice really hard on MnK to be good at aiming. Meanwhile controller players have reaction times built into their AA.
@@SolarLightidnt expect to see you here lmao. i wish more people would be open to things like gyro and touchpads on controller it would actually help level the playing field by bringing the skill ceiling and floor of mnk and controller closer to eachother
The only problem with aim assist is the rotational assist, when a piece of software removes the need for reaction time you lose all integrity in close range engagements
Mande, an ex Apex pro with over 8k hours played, says that a control player will 200 hours has a 50% chance to beat him in a 1v1 at close range. I can't think of any game without aim assist where that's possible. I'm an MnK player and I've spent maybe 20-30 hours player controller and feeling the aim assist for myself, especially at 4:3 sens. I can say from personal experience that even with so few hours on the input, it's incredibly easy to just spray someone for 70-100 damage, and the damage somehow feels faster. And that's without a mag. Times that by 3 and suddenly you got a high skill player getting shit on by a squad of new players. Saying the inputs are balanced only applies to the highest level. Aim assist gives low skill players way too much help, it makes thousands of hours of practiving on MnK borderline worthless.
People just need to spend more time playing and getting better rather than complaining. Is aim assist broken? Yes. Will EA nerf controller? No. Either play on keyboard and mouse and deal with getting one clipped by controller players, switch to controller and one clip those fuckers, or go play CS or Valorant where you’re in a safe place from the controller players.
This is so true. So many 'casual MnK players' get thrown under the bus for this shit. Why should i have to aimtrain 5h a day to keep up with the casual controller player? i m also a casual player so wtf.
my biggest grip against AA as a mnk player is its ability to work through visual clutter and in back/foreground separation situations, for an extreme example i would have to almost strain my eyes to track someone where AA nudges your aim to give enough info for your brain to catch movement and track MUCH easier and really the only "omg controller player" moments i experience is when its so strong that you can't really out 1v1 someone with movement because AA reacts instantaneously to strafes, jumps, and slides my experience isnt just a single game and is situational as you can combat different playstyles directly across all shooters
I actually never though of the visual clutter. Maybe it is the reason i got so tired of apex recently. I credited it to brs becoming stale, but you have a very good point about the stress it puts on mnk players. The instant reaction time is another point that blew me away, it's a gigantic advantage in cqc fights. I am a salty mnk player, but i believe that an input method that requires software assist to be viable is not a good input method. If controller has aim assist, why are scripts and macros banned on mnk then? That said i don't suggest giving mnk macros, which would just make the difference even higher. I believe the only way to have everyone be on the same playing field is to remove aim assist entirely and let controllers use gyro aiming.
gyro aim would be a fantastic solution if microsoft actually bothered to put it in their dogshit controllers lmao as of right now, gyro aim isn't the standard for whatever reason because some companies just outright refuse to implement it as a feature in their controllers i was recently looking into the victrix pro as a premium all-round controller option for any game, but the fact it's a 200 dollar controller that has swappable components and somehow doesn't have a gyroscope was a deal breaker for me
@@eirin481 Microsoft is slow, also their controllers still work with xinput for backward compatibility or smth. And it can't become standard if stock controllers dont support it.
My ideal solution to m&kb vs controller, is to remove aim assist and add support for gyro controls on future titles. Gyro controls bring skill back to fine aim in controller, while they remove the disadvantages mentioned like joystick zeroing or fixed sensitivity speeds. I'm mainly a M&KB player, but I've tried gyro controls where available and honestly I'm preferring them.
This. Gyro Aim is heavily prevalent over on Nintendo games, especially in the competitive scene for Splatoon. They actually recognize its benefits. Would be nice if MS actually just released their controllers with the technology to have Gyro Aim as well. They are so behind in potential technology for controllers...
top gyro aim is still a little bit behind mouse aim, long range 30ms rotational aim assist on gyro would solve all our problems. also clutter shouldnt be a feature on any game, console or pc.
Was gonna male a comment just like this. But realistically it would only help in the casual/matchmaking scene. In the pro scene the lower accuracy and speed of gyro would become too obvious of a gap. But yeah, the only proper solution is to stop pitting 1:1 input players against aim assist players, as these two approaches are fundamentally incompatible, especially at the higher tiers of play.
@@excesssum Competitively, controllers and m&k should not be played together at all. There's zero competitive integrity when you have .4 aim assist and over half the pro scene switching to controller for the aim assist. Valorant, as well as CounterStrike, have no aim assist and their playerbase thrives off of this because of it.
One significant advantage of AA on controllers is the fact that you have way less aim fatigue compared to having to firmly grip your mouse and having to constantly micro-adjust your aim. This is a big win for controllers, especially during stressing tournaments and long gaming sessions.
What? aim fatigue in apex? In that game you have plenty of time to rest your hand. If you have problems with aim fatigue maybe you need to get a lighter mouse, a pad with less static friction or just grind a few hours of Kovaaks/aimlab to learn how to relax your hand and arm while aiming. I never used a controller but I'd imagine aim fatigue is a lot worse there because you aim with just your thumb.
This is just not true. When playing on controller you are primarily using just your thumb for all your aiming and movement which is much more prone to fatigue than using your arm, wrist, and fingers when playing on kb&m. Sure you may become fatigued after hours of playing but if you’re consistently playing the game, but after playing on that input over a weeks and months your body will become accustomed to playing for longer durations.
I feel similarly, for mnk you need to be alert and very focused most times to consistently beam people where as controller you can relax more and even beam people when you are physically feeling tired after a workday etc. Especially when you get a little bit older in age having a longer gaming session is just significantly easier when playing on controller vs mouse. But I guess everyone is different thats just how I see it. When I was early twenties/teens I could just game for hours and hours on mnk without any issues but now in early thirties just a few hours on mnk and I feel like hopping off because I'm getting tired.
When I play roller I can play for hours so easily but on MnK I have maybe 2 hours of gaming before I need to eat and take a break. I burn so many calories on MnK lol
Something always bothered me that prevented me from trying Apex, and I think you figured out what my subconscious was telling me: it's too much flashing, jittering, and moving elements in the way of my focus. In a singleplayer game I can take a break, but in a game like this it's just full time disconcerting input deliberately getting in the way.
We shouldnt also ignore the more casual players who dont aim for or cant reach high levels. I find it way more fun using mouse and it feels unfair to me playing against someone who has aim assist. I personally dont care which one is better, mouse or controller. Just set them aside, as the guy in the video said. Also the thing he said that "you either adapt or get left behind"- true but that is for the pro scene. I dont wanna master another input system that I dont enjoy just cuz it will give me the advantage. It is not fair thus it is not fun.
Yeah for sure, he was speaking purely from the pro perspective, as he should, and that's why I wanted him in the vid. I was giving the more "casual" side of things to help balance.
@@RocketJumpNinja They say adapt or get left behind but honestly when it comes to the pro scene it should be skill based, and the only skill to AA is learning how to abuse it. I get why they have it to appeal to casual players making them think they are good and keep playing. I cannot speak on Apex but the AA needs a nerf in COD for sure.
@@hoodieninja1642 as someone who played both games, put this into perspective. apex is a game with x10 more movement tricks than COD and the mechanical skill ceiling is largely fixated on that movement. it is harder to shoot someone who moves well in apex than someone who moves well in COD. now imagine all the practice you put in this movement be negated because controller tracks that movement anyways with little input from the player. it -destroys- the whole point of apex. so yeah it needs a nerf in both games. if you can't have movement in apex why would you play it over a different game that has better gunplay?
Yeah, when he said that it really irked me. I can't stand playing shooters on controller. I shouldn't have to use it to play the game I love effectively. They need to do something to balance things out. Way too often I get beamed in my mid-tier lobbies in a way only a Pred should be able to do, and it's just not fun. Dial that stuff back until we have balance in the force.
Thank you for saying jitter aiming is an exploit, Ive seen many people arguing that its “intentional” game design, when in any other game, shaking your mouse rapidly would only get you killed.
If you remove the recoil smoothing that jitter aim relies on, it'll actually hit controller much harder. I think it should go. Like he said in the video, it's terrible game design.
As someone who never touched a controller and has master level aim on MnK I did the challenge and played at least 1 hour of controller every day for 1 month. Yes, there is downsides with reaction times and movement. If the AA locks on a target, they are pretty much gone already. They can keep it in game, that’s fine but separate the inputs. The playerbase is big enough to have MnK and Controller separated. Just like it was at the start of the game.
What a great video Zy. I've been around much like you, from the early days. I played Quake 3/CS for countless hours, but the big turn around for FPS was when Halo was released for XBox. Then practically EVERYONE I knew was playing FPS. It took me a while to get used to controller, but when XB-Connect and Halo for PC finally allowed us to play via link with my friends on XBox, it was a shut out. It was my and one other person on PC, and the rest on their individual XBoxes. And it was a slaughter. So much so that they wouldn't play with us. Of course when we were all on XBox, it was much closer to a fair fight. This led most people to believe that mouse and keyboard was "better". But I think that's the wrong way to put it. I think (at those times) mouse and keyboard was EASIER to get good with. If that makes any sense. These days, with aim assist being as strong as it is, it certainly feels like it's easier to pick up controller.
One comment I have to this is: you're not most of the players. You clearly have a very refined aim and I think this is the reason why controllers don't bother you as much. For the average joe who's decent but just plays for fun - the auto aim feels like impossible to beat in certain situations.
It doesn't matter how good you are on mouse and keyboard, you will never have 0ms response to changes in strafe. The gap is exacerbated more the lower the skill level, there really is no "getting better" to human limitations.
@@statyk777 Something to consider is that despite the instant direction changes, you still have to aim/react in the direction of the enemy's strafe on your own, it only tries to keep you (around) them, still have to push your stick over the other direction which takes a non-zero amount of time and is very easy to over-correct if doing it fast. Just trying to make sure this part of it isn't ignored like it often is.
@@magicalchicken5667 Yes you do still have to react however because that initial bit is done for you by aim assist, by the time you do react accordingly your cursor won't have completely left their hitbox if at all. Comparatively on mouse the moment someone changes direction, your crosshair has completely left the target and you are actively missing bullets. As for it being "easy" to overcorrect, because the slowdown and the rotational are always in effect it is actually quite hard to overcorrect unless you are playing extremely high sens which no top controller player does.
@@statyk777 It's easy to overcorrect because as the enemy is moving they can actually exit (or reach the edge of) that AA radius, it doesn't track the movement fully unless they're in your face (even then, the tracking isn't crazy here either) The friction only makes it hard for the aim to leave that radius when up extremely close (target can strafe out of this easily), it tapers off very fast, as does the rotational portion. Also, I can't get anywhere near the amount of AA tracking that some people do when testing, not sure what's up with a lot of the extremely perfect AA tracking clips. In fact, it entirely stops trying to track when they're in your face weirdly enough.
First of all, thank you for the video! I wasn't aware of the problems regarding the camera shake you brought up and they are a really important factor! I think it would have been beneficial to invite more people to a discussion, just to hear different points of view, as I personally completely disagree with the "adapt or get left behind" stance, if there is a need to adapt to play roller it shows that there is something wrong with the balance. To be clear, I am not against AA for controller, it needs AA, I think it needs to change so that it manipulates the micro moves you make instead of aiming for you.
If this video does well and people want to have the debate, I'd love to talk to some controller players as well, then if needed, have an actual debate as like the third video maybe. Could be cool. We'll see! And to clarify Bullet's position ... that's from a pro's point of view, because he has to think that way. For the rest of us ... yeah we can give more time and attention to the potential flaws in the game. He just has to try win, regardless of circumstances.
@@ohpeep3723 PS controllers are shit imo. I have inconsistencies with both my PS5 controllers. My og xbox controller has had zero issues and has worked for years now.
Gyro is the best solution but not the only solution removing AA from PC lobbies entirely will not only detour people from not playing PC at all but completely segrate the community and also cripple respawn pockets people always talk about rainbow six nobody plays that dumb guck n overwatch guns barely has recoil
I flat refuse to buy/play games that force you to play with aim assisters. I want a 1:1 matchup, if the enemy player owns me, at least I know they are ACTUALLY BETTER than me. I think you said it best, controller players are gamer dads who just want to have fun after work and aren't very competitive.
Aim assist is just the result of trying to fix the lack of innovation in controllers. Since Dualshock 1 the only thing that's changed is the addition of triggers otherwise it's pretty much the same controller layout for all platforms even though they added gyro to some controllers, Microsoft still sells the most basic barebones controller with 2x AA's in the box. If you are supposed to create a control scheme for your game that will work on every console then aim assist seems like the easiest thing to implement, this is why games like Apex and Fortnite suffer from aim assist being too strong. So in the end it's because some controllers didn't catch up with the competition that we are stuck with games helping players aim better because their controllers just aren't as good devices as they could be.
i'm an mnk player that gets obsessed over portable gaming peripherals, so the steam deck was an amazing investment because of how valve was at least attempting to innovate the jack of all trades pad, good gyro aim included issue being, the thing is a literal computer in your hands so it's quite hefty, so not ideal for aiming beyond playing something more casual, which is fine, especially since you can just hook up other controllers to it that being said, i legitimately think sony's new premium controllers are the closest thing we have to something that checks all of those boxes, besides the d-pad being mushy and its durability being questionable at best and fragile at worst
I'm so sick and tired of being beamed down by a guy with a controller through 2 thermite grenade, when I can't even see him myself to shoot back properly :\
I think the big console devs need to start making controllers with a touch pad for the right stick, or even implement gyro controls Might sound like I'm trolling but I genuinely think those options are the future for controllers and have the potential to eliminate or heavily nerf aim assist
I couldn’t agree more. Besides the fact that gyro is a slept on technology that can act as mouse input and could replace AA altogether, I feel the conventional console controller has been relatively stagnant since the PS3 and Xbox 360 days (which is almost 2 decades ago mind you), despite their obvious flaws and limitations when it comes to modern gaming habits. Think about it. Most of the innovation around controllers is done by third parties these days, not the console manufacturers, and Valve basically upstaged any of the official “pro” controllers made by Sony and Microsoft with the release of the Steam Deck (and Steam Controller before it). Those “Pro” controller usually cost almost half what the console they are used on costs, and they are *less* versatile on their home console than a stock DualShock, DualSense or even Switch joycon + Steam Input setup on PC.
@@zerocore_ I'd say controller innovation halted even before that. The most notable thing about the gen 7 controllers (excluding the Wii. Nintendo are always trying new things) was that they were wireless. Other than that they were used in the exact same way as gen 6 controllers. Xbox turned the black and white buttons into bumpers, and Sony added the Sixaxis feature, which was an attempt, but was mainly used in hollow ways that didn't add much to the games that used it. Last major upgrade that I can think of was the introduction of analog sticks to the PS1 controllers halfway through that console generation, which forced people to buy new controllers to play games that required analog sticks. If gyro ever becomes mainstream, Xbox players may end up being forced to upgrade.
This issue ain't nearly as bad in Apex as it is in Call of Duty these days, however Call of Duty can't really be considered a "competitive" game in the same sense as Apex is. In Call of Duty the aim assist can work like a literal aimbot and the visual clutter/visual recoil for MnK is just insane. Mouse and keyboard just can't compete due to the same issues that plague Apex.
Even Halo on PC has this huge problem, especially Reach. Me and my team had to completely leave the game since at high rank it was impossible to compete against controllers, they legit cannot miss a headshot. I heard that they included input matchmaking etc, but playerbase went so low that it's really hard to find people anyway if you put only M&K, rip.
@@N7Ronin Well it's not like it's surprising in the case of Halo. It's largely been a controller input shooter for the entirety of the franchise lifespan. That combined with it's high time to kill where there's less room for error without aim assist and yeah, it was always going to be messy with controllers vs mnk. The only "solution" 343 could come up with is so far is they added aim assist for mnk too though not as strong.
I think that the nature of recoil/spray patterns is also a huge part of why aim assist is so strong. When Apex makes every bullet slightly move your camera in a different direction, aim assist automatically making slight corrections for EVERY BULLET helps immensely. This is why, for example, if you watch top MNK players playing casual, even if they perfectly read the lower-level players movements, they will miss 2-3 bullets of the spray from recoil/reaction time to the enemy's strafes, whereas top controller players can consistently hit sprays where they don't miss A SINGLE BULLET. This was especially noticeable when guns like the R301 was meta; due to it's low recoil, the aim assist corrected the recoil so that top controller players like ChaoticMuch and others could hit crazy sprays very often, and no one could replicate it on MNK. Combine this with aim-punch and visual clutter, and this makes close-range SMG fights feel so frustrating for MNK players. The problem is, I have no clue how they would go about making controller sprays more like MNK sprays. The nature of a joystick is just so different than a mouse's.
As far as I can tell, the aim assist doesn't actually react to recoil movement, in addition to being able to remove all vertical recoil on both inputs by just aiming left or right so it probably wouldn't have been the biggest deal even if it was the case.
I started playing apex on PS4 and I was beeming and lasering people. Then I bough my first PC and started playing with mnk. It took me around 1 year of practice, 300+hours in aim trainer to get to the aim level I got with controller kinda.. And its not even consistent at all. But then I needed to learn the movement as well. Get used to the keyboard on the left also.. It got me so annoyed that I quit playing apex, because I though it doesnt matter how much I practice.. I'll never be on the level of a controller player, because they don't have to practice that much as be better then you in aim. I switches to CS and valo, because of that. where I can only play against mnk player and I saw myself dominating. I hate apex for all the controller player, it really took the fun of me. Sometimes after a hard day I just want to chill and play my favourite games, but you can't do that in apex. A controller player will kill you so chilled he could sleep and beem you. On mnk you can practice as much as you want.. without focus you will kill no one. It's just not fun at all if you need to actuall tryhard to get kills while the controller players can just play and will kill you.
Stopped playing apex a year ago after 5,000hrs. Got tired of all the visual bullshit resulting in guess situations and all the little bugs/exploits/issues adding up into a slow burning perpetual frustration. Best decision I ever made in my gaming life. Much happier now.
i think you definitely summed up perfectly why i love watching god-tier aimers and movement players and think i want to play apex, but then jump into the game and hate it. It's not just that they're good, but that in the clips they choose to use in videos, they have risen above all the forced camera movement and visual clutter and it looks so smooth. But in reality most of the time those things will get in the way for everyone, they've just curated these clips where it either isn't an issue or they're lucky and manage to aim through it. When you try to do what they do it's infuriating because the thing that is hindering you is not your own skill but something outside of your control.
The problem with this is that different games handle aim assist in different ways. Some games I've played literally feel like you have aimbot while others it doesn't make a massive difference. For example I played with the same controller on fortnite mobile and on PC and by comparison mobile literally felt like it was aiming for me. So I think aim assist is necessary to have controller be at least somewhat viable against keyboard and mouse but it shouldn't be so broken that keyboard and mouse become completely obsolete.
It's not about competitive integrity in these crossplay fps games. It's about money... If these company's allowed their player base to see their actual raw skill the player retention would drop. It would effect their bottom line so I know it won't change.. They got to keep the illusion of skill alive to farm people for cash. Billions to be made in these crossplay games. 0 ms tracking on strafing targets, while its making all the micros adjustments even if they are lagging is insane.... At this point I see no need to respect controller as in input at all.
Based on my comparison, the best way to explain AA’s advantage is that on controller it’s more forgiving for imprecise aim. Like with MNK you have to be more precise with aiming and compensating for things like bullet travel. But on controller there’s times where shots hit when maybe it shouldn’t. And with ALC you can basically “tune” out overshooting your aim.
Why does everyone act like Aim Assist is a necessity? Professional gamepad players should be prepared to use Gyro instead, especially with Gyro+ Look Flick. This is much better than relying on a controller scheme that requires Aimbot Assist.
My main issue with aim assist is that if feels like it completely removes recoil. Another one is it appears there are no ifs/conditional codes included on aim assist (smoke, stuns, etc.). Its like the devs are lazy and put in there if within this bubble aim will always be in the middle. Also it shouldn't magnetize. For me for aim assist to be fair (there is still decent skill involved) it should just slow down the aim to stay in place.
The forced camera movement when hot dropping or when you drop from height is one of the reason I can't play anyone else other than Horizon. If that's a crutch, then i think that's a problem with the game's overall design. The forced camera movement when firing weapons is also genuinely rage inducing, I grew up on games like Unreal Tournament and Quake. Even more modern games like R6 Siege doesn't have the crazy visual clutter of the muzzle flash. You shouldn't be blinded by your own weapon.
Actually, even for fighting games, keyboards are turning out to be better than people thought traditionally and newer fighting game controllers are inspired by keyboard inputs (no joy stick or dpad).
Oh it's not just me that complains the moves aren't working on controllers? I thought I was just bad, but yeah I actually found it easier on keyboard. That's coming from someone who played Street Fighter II on arcade as a kid and then Alpha 2 on Playstation as a teen.
@@RocketJumpNinjaOn ssb melee for example, its kind of the exact opposite from this video, people started to use keyboard-style inputs (Boxx as an example), and I've heard the debate is a little heated
Ironically: Gyro Aiming (comes with your PlayStation, Nintendo Switch controllers, Steam Controller and probably Steam Deck) gives them less "limited" than with joystick.
Gyro Aim. Nough said. The fact AA is so overpowered that the competitive scene has transitioned from MnK to sticks says it all. Gyro Aim mimicks a mouse for controllers and if implemented well, its highly intuitive and reactive while having the ability to cut out jitters. Ive heard that the Alpakka controller is amazing since it uses 2 Gyroscopes in its controllers (one in each handle) and is super intuitive. More devs (and players) should embrace gyro aim as an input type. Ive used it for some time now as a couch controller player.
Controllers need to be reworked and rebuilt. Instead of rightstick they must get nice and precise touchpad(not crappy as laptops have) and gyro. Aim assist must be removed. I am gyro controller player via app called Rewasd and when i playing with ingame controller setting with aim assist it's freaking ridiculous how massive is help of aim asssist.
the solution is simple. Gyro aiming on controllers. anyone that has USE gyro aiming (like steam controller, ps5, pro controller on PC with steam input) knows its like 90% of aiming with a mouse.
I agree, the issue is still the skill gap and investment to learn to use it. I think something like that needs to be required with perhaps a new title where it sets the expectation. If you suddenly take casuals abilities away where they can't perform to the standard they're used to, they'll quit. So it's the answer, how it deployed and made a requirement is a different issue.
"it doesn't aim for you" next few words out the roller shitters mouth "its giving you small adjustments".... that is aiming for you no matter how marginal rotational assist at 0 ms response time is IT IS aiming for you. Its doing the hardest thing in the game (micro and macro adjusting for every movement made) constantly at inhuman reaction times.
As someone who has put tens of thousands of hours on controller and around 7k hours on KB&M the verdict for me has always been that controllers dominate in CCQ, for medium range its pretty even with mouse slightly being better and for long range engagements the mouse dominates. However, if a game is recoil intensive like PUBG, for example, the mouse quickly becomes the dominant peripheral for all ranges of engagement.
A really interesting take that I have not really heard before and one I think has a lot of merit, however, until rotational aim assist has a latency added to it to make it less instantaneous I think it will still reign supreme. One other thing I think needs to be mentioned is the casual/new player. To have good tracking on a controller takes very little investment. A months worth of evenings. To develope the same competency on mnk takes hundreds of hours. That ought also to be a consideration. Aim assist makes it all but impossible for a new mnk player to compete and will drive many away long before they reach the competency to compete with an average controller player let alone a highly skilled one.
I think you're 100% right, they've made it a horrible experience for mouse and key while making casual controller players gods... It's such a stupid thing... I'd like for someone over at Activision to remove aim assist for controllers for a weekend, so controller players will figure out just how shite they truly are. They'll never do that though. Turning aim assist down even a quarter from how high they have it turned up now would be a good start for M&K. Great video RJN 👍
Now how does gyro play into this? Especially the part about rocket jumps and whatnot. I personally think it should be adopted more as it closes the gap and doesn't require aim assist.
I've always believed that the rotational AA was a little too strong on controller, but I never really considered the jerky camera and recoil difference. I thought it was because mouse input was more direct and it was my aim being shaky.
The main issue with aim assist especcially in Apex is ability to tracking enemy while your apponent strafes. Even the best apex players cant predict every strafe enemy gonna make, when controller players track it 100%. Sad part if we devs rid of the aa player base gonna strugle a lot, i think it might be better if aa would be like 20-15% on pc
It's so nice to hear about what my friends and I have been discussing for more than three years, when I come after training in kovaak's, I can't shoot, not because I don't know how, but because I don't understand where to shoot
Great video! I have 3k hours and play both mnk and controller. What i learned is that aim assist is OP if you understand how it works and use it where it is strongest. (Stand in corner and widepeek with a beam weapon like r99 when you hear footsteps) I started out on controller but didnt utilize aim assist when i switched back after playing 1500 hours mnk i started using aim assist to its fullest and i have never gotten so many oneclips in my life. I played classic first and then changed to 4-3 Linear(op af). As a player on both inputs i think high lvl controller players should be nerfed somehow, but new players should gain full assists. sidenote i think high ping controller players are the scariest ingame (Genburten)
crazy thing I've been gravitating towards the single shot guns as well, I never realized it but you're totally right the camera movement has been killing us.
12:17 - Yep. Visual clutter, visual recoil etc. has crept into FPS games and it's super annoying. Most games require a centre point / crosshair to keep track... One game (Battlefield V) was tied to weapon sights rather than centre screen, so when moving it wasn't centre. Spread-to-recoil conversion as well meaning the gunplay was random. Lol!
This is the best explanation and visual evidence of what really is going on. I got to the end of the road last week. Retired from Apex. Love this content Rocket!
I learnt aiming fundamentals in CSGO over a period of 4 years. After a year of playing Apex, I can comfortably say my aim is in the exact same place as before. I've gotten better at handling weapons, but my aim is the exact same. I haven't given it much thought but this video is a start.
The biggest buff they could give to Rampart would be removing the muzzle flash from her ultimate minigun, it is literally impossible to see what you are aiming at beyond a short distance.
Great video, but I'd disagree with BulletL that we would accept a movement nerf in exchange for an AA nerf - movement is balanced enough right now, and lowering its potential and skill ceiling would never be healthy. Superglides and many other movement techniques are possible for skilled controller players, especially if you use steam configs, and attacking emergent mechanics the community has discovered (even ones that are somewhat MnK exclusive) wouldn't be popular. Cleaning the screen up and removing visual clutter would give MnK the same smooth gameplay as roller, and allow us to focus on raw aim. Approaching the problem with a buff is an infinitely better solution to attacking everyone with nerfs
give controller players the same movement options as mnk (moving while looting, tap strafing turned into an intentional mechanic with a visual cue, make superglides not dependent on framerate by also turning it into an intentional mechanic, etc.) and then nerf AA or change its properties crossplay on apex was the most half-assed thing ive ever seen in my life and its insane how big of a hole the devs dug themselves with this
@@eirin481 Absolutely not. Moving while looting and tap strafing during fights (while actually turning away from your opponent and not just rotating your joystick) would be great for controller players. But there is no need whatsoever to make superglides or tap strafing any easier than it is now. They're difficult to learn, but extremely rewarding for the time invested in them. Why make it easier just because others don't want to actually learn and practice these movement techniques, which really don't help you in a fight?
@@kaykier one is framerate dependent and the other one is coded in such a way that controllers can't access it without scripts, thats why consistency is what i want; they could keep the just-frame timing but these things need to be universal mechanics i play slayer in accent core, weird execution barriers are cool to me, but this would be like if his links weren't accessible for pad players but they got a dash macro for cheap BDC inputs instead
@@eirin481 Do you have a source that confirms controller players are unable to tap strafe because of the coding? Making universal mechanics easier is what led to a series of complaints in games such as: SF4 to SF5, Tekken 6/Tag to Tekken 7, Mortal Kombat X to Mortal Kombat 11, Strive, etc etc. Apex, from a Competitive standpoint, is already in shambles with a two different inputs competing against one another and rotational aim assist. Even in pubs, it's much worse and more difficult for m&k players going against controller players. The last thing Apex really needs is controller having even more accessibility to options that would make it even more superior, than it already is, to m&k.
@@kaykier roller at the top level is arguably still not as good at mnk, its just annoying as fuck in pubs because everyone W keys each other where aim assist is most effective while my claim about the coding of how analog movement works is a bit vague, the lurch mechanic is only abusable by mnk because of the speed inputs can be registered via the mousewheel or even manually mashing the W key (though to a lesser effectiveness, obviously), which controller players, especially on console, cannot abuse and yeah, sure, watering down mechanics and making things more accessible can be a slippery slope, i believe the issues all of those games have are multitudes more than simply making some inputs easier making superglides not framerate dependent, and by a certain extent, hardware dependent, is in my opinion the equivalent of the 3 frame input buffer in xrd that older guilty gear titles lacked, for instance; it just makes shit less frustrating most of the time, and although it does make shit like links admittedly easier, it does so without reducing spectator friendliness or player enjoyment the best course of action i think respawn can dish out is an overall nerf or rework of aim assist, *at least* change how it works, whilst reducing visual noise, giving controller players more movement options, and actually supporting gyro aim officially on the principle that the playing ground should be as equal as possible
Destiny 2 has the same problem where AA is far too strong and sticky, with a large hitbox and reaction to button press way off target, so much people massively started using chronus zen, and xim to use mnk with the aim assist.
Aim Assist should only initially assist to the target after maintaining crosshair near the target for 200ms "or the average human reaction time". After said time of 200ms the aim assist should incrementally fall off of assisting 25% every 50ms giving the player aim assist for another 200ms.
Great video but you missed the third input which is gyro aiming. Imo it's what controller players should start learning. There will be no need for aim assist when people start getting good with it
Aim assist is ruining today's FPS experience. The goal being to know how to aim, there is no need for help, assistance on the pretext that a device is not made for that. The controller is not made to play an FPS, it comes from consoles, business history.. we had to find a way to play an FPS with a controller. And if we put a semi aimbot? At a certain percentage... what a good idea... (damn). We must separate these two devices, or at least leave the choice to choose! Personally, I don't want aim assist in my games. Most playing FPS today with a controller have never known any other way to play it, always with assistance, they do not know the time spent on the keyboard mouse to have a correct level.
the most broken part of aim assist vs mnk is how little effort you put in order to one clip someone in apex versus mnk. It doesnt tire you out at all vs mnk.
Like a lot of other people have said if we could remove visual clutter, maybe add some kind of delay to rotational aim assist. I think the game would be enjoyable. And personally I’d prefer to have input based matchmaking for ranked. It’s not pro league but it is meant to be competitive so it makes sense to me that in terms of input everyone should be on the same one. I’m pretty sure overwatch disabled AA in competitive. I don’t think respawn will ever nerf aim assist overall and the reasons are likely player retention and money. Pretty sure majority of the player base on PC is now on controller, so if you nerf it a lot of people will just find a new game to play. One final thought I have which goes for both inputs is that I wish they’d do something about config usage, I would honestly like to see them remove them.
I think there just needs to be a mouse/keyboard/controller counsel that meets up atleast twice a year to go over different things they both can improve on the others inputs to balance it
They’re two different inputs with their own advantages and disadvantages. There’s no way they could ever be made equal. I personally think they should just separate them into two different lobbies. That’s just me though
I just don’t think that there would be enough players to support forced input lobbies. I mean, just look at halo infinite, kb&m lobbies were practically dead so they just had to q into cross play. I think the issue with separating the inputs for competitive and tournaments would be that it just makes the viewing experience worse overall.
I disagree with all this. Aim Assist is really overpowered in games now, and it shows with top players. Battlefield is a great example of this, they broke aim assist and now you see console players top fragging insanely now, compared to before, and there KD stats have sky rocketed while m&k has lost KD stats. That's why many streamers and pros have stopped gaming competitively and played single player games
Someone talked about "bullet punch" but they mean flinch in games and I agree, give flinch to controller, and remove it from M&K. There you have it, balancing.
Really well done video, Zy. Summarizes why I feel so drained after playing Apex (something I don't feel after other mainstream FPSes). Oh, not to mentioned it is extraordinarily hard to see people in this game (at max FOV which I think is generally the right way to play). Leads to an insanely straining experience overall. But really solid gameplay... so there's that.
Long time viewer, Really good video. I quit Apex because of multiple things, one of them being that the meta became controller first, and as such feeds into the Devs caring about controller gameplay more than K/M. I feel like there should be a separation in K/M and Controller atleast in Ranked or Comp(or maybe even remove/lower Aim Assist in those modes) because as of right now its really straight up stupid to even play the game, every gunfight feels unfair(either in my favor or the enemy's) which for me is just not fun. I got back into Arena shooters because of this but realized that the Genre has died but I still enjoyed Doom 2016 MP(IK its not a "Pure" arena shooter but i like the balance of modern features and progression and the classic gameplay style). As bloodhound says "There's Purity in simple Combat" That applies perfectly to Arena shooters ironically XD.
@BarnOwl-cg1ls yeah thats what really sucks about all of this, Apex is based on Titanfall and Titanfall was such an outstanding game on K/M, and apex at launch was similar but now its just a mess, because of the controller focus.
@BarnOwl-cg1ls agreed, although i have bought a battlepass twice back in the day, but that was when i really wanted to support respawn entertainment and trusted them(and hoped they would use it for TF3 AHAHAHAHAH). But now it doesnt matter, everything about the game is just boring after a few matches.
Rotational aim assist is one of the worst things to happen to FPS games. Creates an input without the user doing so and hinders controller players from building true muscle memory and reaction timing. Would love to see cross play fps games start introducing low visual effect graphic settings that removes all the screen clutter and shake
Controllers SHOULD be inferior in a competitive shooter game because of their design. Mouse aim is 100% affected by skill, so it would be unfair to lose to aim assist in any case. Like saying bad bicycles should get a small motorized assist for bike racing. And m&k can be cheaper than a controller, unlike in the bicycle example.
So you're saying that I shouldn't be given aimbot if I want to play the game with a Wiimote steering wheel? M&K gets no aim assist, controller gets .4 or .6, and then I would get 1.0 because I'm using a harder input method than controller. It's the only way to make it "fair".
I fear this argument will never go away. Instead of viewing it as a problem to solve, people treat it like tribalism and beat their chest in defense of their option, while vilifying the opposition
@@thenry3600 Input based is the best case scenario. People literally don't play crossplay games because of aim assist, myself included. It would be a win win for everyone.
Racing games have their own version of this. They have three possible inputs. Wheel+Pedals, controller, and M+KB. Both controller and M+KB get hidden assists in order to make them viable, with M+KB getting the most hidden assists. A big issue there is that a lot of people don't even realize they are being assisted because they've understandably never tried wheel and pedals. Many think that wheel and pedals is an unfair advantage. The majority also don't know about things like deadzones and steering linearity, which are usually set in a way to ensure that any controller, including ones that are failing with stick drift, can play the game. This severely nerfs the potential of controller. These settings can easily be changed, but most people are either ignorant of them or are so adverse to change that they refuse to change them, even to their own benefit. So there is a purveying feeling that wheel and pedals has an "unfair" advantage in racing games, when actually the opposite is true. I'm a controller player in racing games. I wanted to make the switch to wheel and pedals but it aggravated an old injury and had to go. I've made it into top 500 global in multiple racing games, and I probably still have some upside if I really focused on the genre. All on a non-ideal input with hidden assists added (I turn off all non-hidden assists). I'm super glad that I'm able to enjoy these games so much on controller since i can't play the ideal input, but i feel a little uncomfortable with how competitive I'm able to be on a non-ideal input. Side note: your theory on visual clutter and annoying systems creating toxicity does seem to hold some water considering the recent success of battlebit.
Either no cross plat, or fine tune the way aim assist works. Do not move crosshair without player input. Slow the sens to stick with enemies ONLY if they are pushing the joystick in the same exact direction. Imagine playing badminton and your opponent did perfect corner smashes every high ball you played. With good players, all they need to do is mixup drop shots and you'll struggle so much against them. Thats what aim assist does to competition
Such an awesome piece of content from the FPS GOAT. Thanks for letting me weigh in on this topic and being part of the video!!
Come on now, my hype for you was actually true, no need to give unnecessary expectations about me 😂 Thanks again for the extra perspective!
@damsen978 Planetside 2 and Ultrakill are some of the deadest games out there lol. Granted, Quake is kinda dead, but it doesn't negate his skill level bro.
@damsen978 Well, before commenting I actually looked up the player counts of all the games we're talking about here. But I guess there's no point arguing with you because it's impossible to convince you otherwise. So why bother? lmao
You said kbm is better on lan?! Pros play on worse setups, so worse frames, so roller has advantage.
@@jorrell279 You just somehow topped something stupid with something even more stupid, I can't contribute more to this conversation but I just wanna say that.
The biggest issue for MnK is not screenshaking, it's not visual clutter. Imo it's bullet punch. When you get shot at it makes your aim shake and jitter uncontrollably. This isn't an issue for controller players who stay locked onto the target, but it messes up your aim on MnK. Ditch bullet punch and reduce visual clutter and it solves a lot of problems for MnK
everyoone benefits from it
This is a good point. I don't think aimpunch is inherently bad... and I think it's needed to offset snipers getting shot in the face and just turning to you like a turret and 1-shotting you to the head. BUT the aim assist should take a hit during the aimpunch 100%.
Oh yeah and even while outside zone or in a Horizon ult, those little ticks really mess your aim up.
@@RocketJumpNinja facts 💯
well said - especially on burst weapons imo.. controller basically simulates burst shots as 1 single bullet in most cases even with the visual clutter/aim punch
If a large portion of mnk pro players suddenly switch to controller, the AA is too strong. Simple as that. There is no competitive shooter where people change from years of mnk to controller, except there is AA on controllers.
I think Apex simply has to admit that it is not a competitive game and that's it.
Exactly. Don't really understand how that can even be a discussion. Pretty clear from my point of view.
Yeah. It is the same exact thing in any professionally played game. If a class/build is so strong in PvP, that everyone needs to play it, it should probably be nerfed. If a card in a TCG/CCG is so strong, you need to play it on a professional level to compete, it should probably be banned or restricted. If a mechanic like Aim Assist in shooters is so strong, that professionals are switching over to it, after playing mouse and keyboard for years, sometimes decades in various other shooter games, than Aim Assist is too strong. The argument is, that everyone should be able to play the way they want to play. Correct. That's why Aim Assist should be nerfed or maybe even removed. If Aim Assist is so strong, that it's stronger than MnK, I can't play the way I want to play, if I want to compete (in my case, I don't care about competing, I'm just making an argument here).
this is literally already happening, y'all won't stop moving the goal posts until everyone is on controller and then who cares?
Controllers= no skill, instant headshots. M&K = high skill, bullets don't bend
i remember when apex first came out, there was a way to turn down the muzzle flash by going into the game files. It was crazy how much better the game felt when you werent constantly being flash banged by your own weapon.
Then they removed the muzzle attachment entirely because it didn’t work as intended
Yeah they also reduced muzzle flash
Ironically, it actually made the game significantly worse as a BR. Meant that there was far less disadvantage to full auto weapons in certain situations and less reason to get attachments. Instantly killed gun balance and they've been trying to fix it ever since, because it's just too easy to beam with smgs and full auto ARs. AA on controllers is just the next step on from that.
Yeah now if you even touch your config file you risk being permanently banned
@@Fool_xo I mean, good (for the most part). The example here wasn't a crucial tweak that needed to be made to get basic performance (such as with tweaking net rate in counter strike) but an outright exploit. Was basically just straight up cheating. The controller situation now and RJN's suggestions for fixing it come at a very different time in the game's state than when muzzle flash was still so amped up.
"MnK players should just switch if they think AA is the crutch"
has the same energy as
"Just use aimbot if u cant fight my aimbot"
People parrot that mindset and don't recognize that ruins a game. Using that logic, things like the nemesis and LStar should have never been nerfed.
bozo.
@@TheShizzlemoplow skill tier gamer
Truth is when the MNK player switches to controller they'll realize AA isn't op and they are just crybabies that sucked.
60% of pros in ALGS are on MNK. MNK is still better than controller overall.
@@thesix4176 so confidently wrong 😂😂😂
"but if the best players in the game switch to the worse input, then clearly something is wrong"
THANK YOU, finally someone other than me said it
"mouse and keyboard have so many advantages to be the better input" I kinda disagree, or more like, rephrase it: mouse and keyboard limit the players mechanical skills the least amount/they are the most representative of a player's skill level
Personally, I think the advantage of controllers should be price and comfort (no need for desk, or not even a cable), for casuals it's perfect
But if you want to test your limits M&K should be the way to go
I don't understand how someone with a healthy competitive integrity would rather use the more hindering input but with software assistance over the input that actually represents their human abilities better. They are not esport athletes, they are business men
They aren't athlete's stop calling them that they definitely deserve to be called pros and to be respected but they don't deserve the title of athlete that's silly and ridiculous.
Athlete: a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise. Physical being the key word.
@@ranespider1937 Are golfers athletes?
Shroud said it perfectly couple years ago, if it's money on the line like in a tournament every player should play on the same input like controller vs controller or m&k vs m&k. If you don't do that you create an un-even setting to play in which will hurt the tournament.
skins and heirlooms make more money than tournaments. you think company like EA with almost 0 Esport managing experience prior to Apex gives a shit?
@@NaPH273 He's talking about players receiving money not the company
@@flashjor98 balancing gameplay and input towards pro scene would hurt casual playerbase -> less skins buyers down the line
@@NaPH273 the ignorance is pure with u aint it, its about kb vs controller dumbass
@@NaPH273 He's talking about having separate tournaments for m&k and controller players
The slowdown from getting hit by bullets is another factor in favor of controller players. It isn't enough that I get beamed with way higher accuracy than would be possible on MnK, but I will also not be able to reach cover a meter a way, because I will be completely glued to the ground with so many hits on me.
It's ridiculous right now in Warzone 2 with any kind of explosion. You land on the far edge of a grenade? You sprint past a mine? Prepare to walk at turtle speed for about 5 seconds.
I agree the slow is one of the worst features in apex. Like why is it trying to be a tac fps in that point.
Aim assist used to slow your sensitivity down when you were aiming over people, nowadays it's just an aim bot. It's hard to remove aim bot once you have had it for so long, you'd have to slowly reduce it over time so the general players don't notice and get used to having to aim themselves slowly.
Visual clutter has gotten really bad recently in games, everyone needs flashy shit for some reason now.
Aimbot locks on a target and don't unlock aim assist isn't sticky it just guides you a bit but aimlocking you can't lock on with aim assist from 500m away aim assist i
@@coach-This, try being in a close range fight where both you and you’re opponent are using a teammate knockdown shield as cover. It’s so hard to hold you’re aim at the edge of their shield for when they peak. Aim assist freaks out and doesn’t know what to do and the fight ultimately ends up turning into a sustained dps war of who can dps the shield first to kill the player behind it.
Apex has two different kinds of AA. Standard slow down and rotational. Putting them together is why it's busted. At the end of the day the leaderboards should overwhelming favor MNK in shooters, that's just the reality of physics when looking at the two different inputs. If the data doesn't show that, the software is compensating for things at a consistent rate that MNK players can't. That's the single thing most people miss with AA, it literally never stops working as intended. It never gets "tired".
I have some thoughts as an mnk player that's tried roller in apex. I agree with some takes. Controller takes significantly less time to learn to be GOOD at than mnk does. In order to be at a competitive level on mnk, that usually takes thousands of hours worth of time. That's the discrepancy and what people do not like about roller; the significant lack of effort in order to reach a high level. Just leaves a bitter taste in peoples mouths. Rotational AA is majority the issue with controller, the zero ms reaction time that will practically aim for the player. I don't agree that someone's dad that came home from their 9-5 should be able to 1clip with ease with .4 or .6 just because they have it. It's not skill. It's not balanced. I do agree about the visual clutter in this game. It's horrific and another reason why roller has an advantage. Bullet is right about rotational AA, it needs to be tweaked or removed. No one needs as much AA as they currently have
U look hot as F..... I rather hang out with u than play APEX for sure.... With all these aimbot like aim assist players.... I haven't played a game without saying "F aim aissist!!!"
I never thought I would hear a day where pro players had to switch to a controller in an fps game to be competitive. I do understand the input of having fun and an even playing field of non-competitive game modes and I am all for it if it makes the community more connected/makes it easier for friends to play together. However, this should never be a deciding factor for competitive gaming and I am quite shocked that this is a thing. Great content as always.
60% of pros in latest ALGS tournament are on MNK. Controller is only 40%.
@@thesix4176 And the winning teams...?
@@unwonohe didn’t respond 😂
@@thesix4176 nice try little bro, almost 85% are all on controller now and the only MnK left are legacy players
I believe removing screen clutter and screen shake is a big win if possible.
What i would say is gyro controllers are becoming more and more accurate. I have seen some very impressive aimers on gyro controllers and still abusing AA. Controllers havent innovated in a long time in regards to aiming. I believe if the likes of sony and microsoft make gyro controllers this would allow for a significant AA nerf and start helping to level the playing field.
Some games like Halo and MW2 the AA is even stronger than apex! Also in MW2 the screen shake and screen clutter is insane. Something has to be done to help level things out. I aim train and practice really hard on MnK to be good at aiming. Meanwhile controller players have reaction times built into their AA.
Just hold developers accountable to put in good controller settings as they currently don't and compensate with high AA
I also believe allowing consoles to support controllers over 250hz polling rate would also be a win that would allow the ability to further nerf AA
sony already includes gyro in their controllers
apex just hasn't bothered including support for it
@@SolarLightidnt expect to see you here lmao. i wish more people would be open to things like gyro and touchpads on controller it would actually help level the playing field by bringing the skill ceiling and floor of mnk and controller closer to eachother
@@SolarLight Mr. Solar I haven't finished my essay on charge dynamics and acceleration vectors could I get an extension on my homework
The only problem with aim assist is the rotational assist, when a piece of software removes the need for reaction time you lose all integrity in close range engagements
Mande, an ex Apex pro with over 8k hours played, says that a control player will 200 hours has a 50% chance to beat him in a 1v1 at close range. I can't think of any game without aim assist where that's possible.
I'm an MnK player and I've spent maybe 20-30 hours player controller and feeling the aim assist for myself, especially at 4:3 sens. I can say from personal experience that even with so few hours on the input, it's incredibly easy to just spray someone for 70-100 damage, and the damage somehow feels faster. And that's without a mag. Times that by 3 and suddenly you got a high skill player getting shit on by a squad of new players. Saying the inputs are balanced only applies to the highest level. Aim assist gives low skill players way too much help, it makes thousands of hours of practiving on MnK borderline worthless.
People just need to spend more time playing and getting better rather than complaining. Is aim assist broken? Yes. Will EA nerf controller? No.
Either play on keyboard and mouse and deal with getting one clipped by controller players, switch to controller and one clip those fuckers, or go play CS or Valorant where you’re in a safe place from the controller players.
This is so true. So many 'casual MnK players' get thrown under the bus for this shit. Why should i have to aimtrain 5h a day to keep up with the casual controller player? i m also a casual player so wtf.
@@Toaster7you unironically commented to get better talking about a pro with nearly 10k hours on apex is your brain working at all?
@@Toaster7 "Mnk player need to stop complaining, they just have to play for 8 000 hours"
my biggest grip against AA as a mnk player is its ability to work through visual clutter and in back/foreground separation situations, for an extreme example i would have to almost strain my eyes to track someone where AA nudges your aim to give enough info for your brain to catch movement and track MUCH easier
and really the only "omg controller player" moments i experience is when its so strong that you can't really out 1v1 someone with movement because AA reacts instantaneously to strafes, jumps, and slides
my experience isnt just a single game and is situational as you can combat different playstyles directly across all shooters
I actually never though of the visual clutter. Maybe it is the reason i got so tired of apex recently. I credited it to brs becoming stale, but you have a very good point about the stress it puts on mnk players.
The instant reaction time is another point that blew me away, it's a gigantic advantage in cqc fights. I am a salty mnk player, but i believe that an input method that requires software assist to be viable is not a good input method. If controller has aim assist, why are scripts and macros banned on mnk then? That said i don't suggest giving mnk macros, which would just make the difference even higher. I believe the only way to have everyone be on the same playing field is to remove aim assist entirely and let controllers use gyro aiming.
yes omg gyro aim would solve all of this fucking bs
gyro aim would be a fantastic solution if microsoft actually bothered to put it in their dogshit controllers lmao
as of right now, gyro aim isn't the standard for whatever reason because some companies just outright refuse to implement it as a feature in their controllers
i was recently looking into the victrix pro as a premium all-round controller option for any game, but the fact it's a 200 dollar controller that has swappable components and somehow doesn't have a gyroscope was a deal breaker for me
@@eirin481 Microsoft is slow, also their controllers still work with xinput for backward compatibility or smth. And it can't become standard if stock controllers dont support it.
My ideal solution to m&kb vs controller, is to remove aim assist and add support for gyro controls on future titles. Gyro controls bring skill back to fine aim in controller, while they remove the disadvantages mentioned like joystick zeroing or fixed sensitivity speeds. I'm mainly a M&KB player, but I've tried gyro controls where available and honestly I'm preferring them.
This. Gyro Aim is heavily prevalent over on Nintendo games, especially in the competitive scene for Splatoon. They actually recognize its benefits. Would be nice if MS actually just released their controllers with the technology to have Gyro Aim as well. They are so behind in potential technology for controllers...
top gyro aim is still a little bit behind mouse aim, long range 30ms rotational aim assist on gyro would solve all our problems. also clutter shouldnt be a feature on any game, console or pc.
Was gonna male a comment just like this. But realistically it would only help in the casual/matchmaking scene. In the pro scene the lower accuracy and speed of gyro would become too obvious of a gap. But yeah, the only proper solution is to stop pitting 1:1 input players against aim assist players, as these two approaches are fundamentally incompatible, especially at the higher tiers of play.
Casuals would see a stark decrease in performance and complain in droves until it got reverted 100%
@@excesssum Competitively, controllers and m&k should not be played together at all. There's zero competitive integrity when you have .4 aim assist and over half the pro scene switching to controller for the aim assist. Valorant, as well as CounterStrike, have no aim assist and their playerbase thrives off of this because of it.
One significant advantage of AA on controllers is the fact that you have way less aim fatigue compared to having to firmly grip your mouse and having to constantly micro-adjust your aim. This is a big win for controllers, especially during stressing tournaments and long gaming sessions.
That's the same on controller.
Actually fatigue is even worst on controller if they play claw.
What? aim fatigue in apex? In that game you have plenty of time to rest your hand. If you have problems with aim fatigue maybe you need to get a lighter mouse, a pad with less static friction or just grind a few hours of Kovaaks/aimlab to learn how to relax your hand and arm while aiming.
I never used a controller but I'd imagine aim fatigue is a lot worse there because you aim with just your thumb.
This is just not true.
When playing on controller you are primarily using just your thumb for all your aiming and movement which is much more prone to fatigue than using your arm, wrist, and fingers when playing on kb&m.
Sure you may become fatigued after hours of playing but if you’re consistently playing the game, but after playing on that input over a weeks and months your body will become accustomed to playing for longer durations.
I feel similarly, for mnk you need to be alert and very focused most times to consistently beam people where as controller you can relax more and even beam people when you are physically feeling tired after a workday etc. Especially when you get a little bit older in age having a longer gaming session is just significantly easier when playing on controller vs mouse. But I guess everyone is different thats just how I see it. When I was early twenties/teens I could just game for hours and hours on mnk without any issues but now in early thirties just a few hours on mnk and I feel like hopping off because I'm getting tired.
When I play roller I can play for hours so easily but on MnK I have maybe 2 hours of gaming before I need to eat and take a break. I burn so many calories on MnK lol
Its too late for Apex, but I hope developers take this as a situation that inputs need to be separated from the beginning.
It was mnk players whined about it
Game devs need to start pushing gyro aim
Something always bothered me that prevented me from trying Apex, and I think you figured out what my subconscious was telling me: it's too much flashing, jittering, and moving elements in the way of my focus. In a singleplayer game I can take a break, but in a game like this it's just full time disconcerting input deliberately getting in the way.
We shouldnt also ignore the more casual players who dont aim for or cant reach high levels. I find it way more fun using mouse and it feels unfair to me playing against someone who has aim assist. I personally dont care which one is better, mouse or controller. Just set them aside, as the guy in the video said. Also the thing he said that "you either adapt or get left behind"- true but that is for the pro scene. I dont wanna master another input system that I dont enjoy just cuz it will give me the advantage. It is not fair thus it is not fun.
Yeah for sure, he was speaking purely from the pro perspective, as he should, and that's why I wanted him in the vid. I was giving the more "casual" side of things to help balance.
@@RocketJumpNinja They say adapt or get left behind but honestly when it comes to the pro scene it should be skill based, and the only skill to AA is learning how to abuse it. I get why they have it to appeal to casual players making them think they are good and keep playing. I cannot speak on Apex but the AA needs a nerf in COD for sure.
@@hoodieninja1642 as someone who played both games, put this into perspective. apex is a game with x10 more movement tricks than COD and the mechanical skill ceiling is largely fixated on that movement. it is harder to shoot someone who moves well in apex than someone who moves well in COD.
now imagine all the practice you put in this movement be negated because controller tracks that movement anyways with little input from the player. it -destroys- the whole point of apex. so yeah it needs a nerf in both games. if you can't have movement in apex why would you play it over a different game that has better gunplay?
Yeah, when he said that it really irked me. I can't stand playing shooters on controller. I shouldn't have to use it to play the game I love effectively. They need to do something to balance things out. Way too often I get beamed in my mid-tier lobbies in a way only a Pred should be able to do, and it's just not fun. Dial that stuff back until we have balance in the force.
Thank you for saying jitter aiming is an exploit, Ive seen many people arguing that its “intentional” game design, when in any other game, shaking your mouse rapidly would only get you killed.
No one is arguing that jitter aim is intentional. Everyone uses smoothing now including controller players where smoothing is much easier.
@@xmetallica21 But i think it is intentional so you can track left to right easier vs. shooting at a stationary target.
If you remove the recoil smoothing that jitter aim relies on, it'll actually hit controller much harder. I think it should go. Like he said in the video, it's terrible game design.
@@xmetallica21smoothing is intentional. It was made for exactly the purpose it is used.
As someone who never touched a controller and has master level aim on MnK I did the challenge and played at least 1 hour of controller every day for 1 month. Yes, there is downsides with reaction times and movement. If the AA locks on a target, they are pretty much gone already. They can keep it in game, that’s fine but separate the inputs. The playerbase is big enough to have MnK and Controller separated. Just like it was at the start of the game.
What a great video Zy.
I've been around much like you, from the early days. I played Quake 3/CS for countless hours, but the big turn around for FPS was when Halo was released for XBox. Then practically EVERYONE I knew was playing FPS.
It took me a while to get used to controller, but when XB-Connect and Halo for PC finally allowed us to play via link with my friends on XBox, it was a shut out. It was my and one other person on PC, and the rest on their individual XBoxes. And it was a slaughter. So much so that they wouldn't play with us.
Of course when we were all on XBox, it was much closer to a fair fight. This led most people to believe that mouse and keyboard was "better". But I think that's the wrong way to put it. I think (at those times) mouse and keyboard was EASIER to get good with. If that makes any sense.
These days, with aim assist being as strong as it is, it certainly feels like it's easier to pick up controller.
One comment I have to this is: you're not most of the players. You clearly have a very refined aim and I think this is the reason why controllers don't bother you as much. For the average joe who's decent but just plays for fun - the auto aim feels like impossible to beat in certain situations.
It doesn't matter how good you are on mouse and keyboard, you will never have 0ms response to changes in strafe. The gap is exacerbated more the lower the skill level, there really is no "getting better" to human limitations.
@@statyk777 Something to consider is that despite the instant direction changes, you still have to aim/react in the direction of the enemy's strafe on your own, it only tries to keep you (around) them, still have to push your stick over the other direction which takes a non-zero amount of time and is very easy to over-correct if doing it fast. Just trying to make sure this part of it isn't ignored like it often is.
@@magicalchicken5667 Yes you do still have to react however because that initial bit is done for you by aim assist, by the time you do react accordingly your cursor won't have completely left their hitbox if at all.
Comparatively on mouse the moment someone changes direction, your crosshair has completely left the target and you are actively missing bullets.
As for it being "easy" to overcorrect, because the slowdown and the rotational are always in effect it is actually quite hard to overcorrect unless you are playing extremely high sens which no top controller player does.
@@statyk777 It's easy to overcorrect because as the enemy is moving they can actually exit (or reach the edge of) that AA radius, it doesn't track the movement fully unless they're in your face (even then, the tracking isn't crazy here either)
The friction only makes it hard for the aim to leave that radius when up extremely close (target can strafe out of this easily), it tapers off very fast, as does the rotational portion.
Also, I can't get anywhere near the amount of AA tracking that some people do when testing, not sure what's up with a lot of the extremely perfect AA tracking clips. In fact, it entirely stops trying to track when they're in your face weirdly enough.
First of all, thank you for the video! I wasn't aware of the problems regarding the camera shake you brought up and they are a really important factor! I think it would have been beneficial to invite more people to a discussion, just to hear different points of view, as I personally completely disagree with the "adapt or get left behind" stance, if there is a need to adapt to play roller it shows that there is something wrong with the balance. To be clear, I am not against AA for controller, it needs AA, I think it needs to change so that it manipulates the micro moves you make instead of aiming for you.
If this video does well and people want to have the debate, I'd love to talk to some controller players as well, then if needed, have an actual debate as like the third video maybe. Could be cool. We'll see!
And to clarify Bullet's position ... that's from a pro's point of view, because he has to think that way. For the rest of us ... yeah we can give more time and attention to the potential flaws in the game. He just has to try win, regardless of circumstances.
Hot take: They should remove aim assist completely and implement gyro aim. Everyone would have raw aim and controller would still be very competitive.
xbox controllers dont have gyro though
@@zoratu3188 xbox controllers are mostly overpriced also, they break so easily
@@ohpeep3723 PS controllers are shit imo. I have inconsistencies with both my PS5 controllers. My og xbox controller has had zero issues and has worked for years now.
@@caliaquatics3076 not for me and my friends though
Gyro is the best solution but not the only solution removing AA from PC lobbies entirely will not only detour people from not playing PC at all but completely segrate the community and also cripple respawn pockets people always talk about rainbow six nobody plays that dumb guck n overwatch guns barely has recoil
I flat refuse to buy/play games that force you to play with aim assisters. I want a 1:1 matchup, if the enemy player owns me, at least I know they are ACTUALLY BETTER than me. I think you said it best, controller players are gamer dads who just want to have fun after work and aren't very competitive.
Aim assist is just the result of trying to fix the lack of innovation in controllers. Since Dualshock 1 the only thing that's changed is the addition of triggers otherwise it's pretty much the same controller layout for all platforms even though they added gyro to some controllers, Microsoft still sells the most basic barebones controller with 2x AA's in the box. If you are supposed to create a control scheme for your game that will work on every console then aim assist seems like the easiest thing to implement, this is why games like Apex and Fortnite suffer from aim assist being too strong. So in the end it's because some controllers didn't catch up with the competition that we are stuck with games helping players aim better because their controllers just aren't as good devices as they could be.
Steam controller was really pushing the boundaries unfortunately people didn't want to Adapt
No innovation is there. Gyro activation would lay it all to rest.
@@thenry3600but unfortunately xbox controllers by default don't even have gyro.
No, aim assist is the result of corporations realizing that if they make the game as casual friendly and oriented as possible, they make more money.
i'm an mnk player that gets obsessed over portable gaming peripherals, so the steam deck was an amazing investment because of how valve was at least attempting to innovate the jack of all trades pad, good gyro aim included
issue being, the thing is a literal computer in your hands so it's quite hefty, so not ideal for aiming beyond playing something more casual, which is fine, especially since you can just hook up other controllers to it
that being said, i legitimately think sony's new premium controllers are the closest thing we have to something that checks all of those boxes, besides the d-pad being mushy and its durability being questionable at best and fragile at worst
I'm so sick and tired of being beamed down by a guy with a controller through 2 thermite grenade, when I can't even see him myself to shoot back properly :\
I think the big console devs need to start making controllers with a touch pad for the right stick, or even implement gyro controls
Might sound like I'm trolling but I genuinely think those options are the future for controllers and have the potential to eliminate or heavily nerf aim assist
yes this please
this is how I play anyway
I couldn’t agree more. Besides the fact that gyro is a slept on technology that can act as mouse input and could replace AA altogether, I feel the conventional console controller has been relatively stagnant since the PS3 and Xbox 360 days (which is almost 2 decades ago mind you), despite their obvious flaws and limitations when it comes to modern gaming habits.
Think about it. Most of the innovation around controllers is done by third parties these days, not the console manufacturers, and Valve basically upstaged any of the official “pro” controllers made by Sony and Microsoft with the release of the Steam Deck (and Steam Controller before it). Those “Pro” controller usually cost almost half what the console they are used on costs, and they are *less* versatile on their home console than a stock DualShock, DualSense or even Switch joycon + Steam Input setup on PC.
there is a gyro controller from XIM which is quite nice
@@zerocore_
I'd say controller innovation halted even before that. The most notable thing about the gen 7 controllers (excluding the Wii. Nintendo are always trying new things) was that they were wireless. Other than that they were used in the exact same way as gen 6 controllers. Xbox turned the black and white buttons into bumpers, and Sony added the Sixaxis feature, which was an attempt, but was mainly used in hollow ways that didn't add much to the games that used it.
Last major upgrade that I can think of was the introduction of analog sticks to the PS1 controllers halfway through that console generation, which forced people to buy new controllers to play games that required analog sticks. If gyro ever becomes mainstream, Xbox players may end up being forced to upgrade.
This issue ain't nearly as bad in Apex as it is in Call of Duty these days, however Call of Duty can't really be considered a "competitive" game in the same sense as Apex is. In Call of Duty the aim assist can work like a literal aimbot and the visual clutter/visual recoil for MnK is just insane. Mouse and keyboard just can't compete due to the same issues that plague Apex.
Even Halo on PC has this huge problem, especially Reach. Me and my team had to completely leave the game since at high rank it was impossible to compete against controllers, they legit cannot miss a headshot. I heard that they included input matchmaking etc, but playerbase went so low that it's really hard to find people anyway if you put only M&K, rip.
@@N7Ronin Well it's not like it's surprising in the case of Halo. It's largely been a controller input shooter for the entirety of the franchise lifespan. That combined with it's high time to kill where there's less room for error without aim assist and yeah, it was always going to be messy with controllers vs mnk. The only "solution" 343 could come up with is so far is they added aim assist for mnk too though not as strong.
cod and halo are just controller shooters anyways like valorant and csgo
I think that the nature of recoil/spray patterns is also a huge part of why aim assist is so strong. When Apex makes every bullet slightly move your camera in a different direction, aim assist automatically making slight corrections for EVERY BULLET helps immensely. This is why, for example, if you watch top MNK players playing casual, even if they perfectly read the lower-level players movements, they will miss 2-3 bullets of the spray from recoil/reaction time to the enemy's strafes, whereas top controller players can consistently hit sprays where they don't miss A SINGLE BULLET. This was especially noticeable when guns like the R301 was meta; due to it's low recoil, the aim assist corrected the recoil so that top controller players like ChaoticMuch and others could hit crazy sprays very often, and no one could replicate it on MNK. Combine this with aim-punch and visual clutter, and this makes close-range SMG fights feel so frustrating for MNK players.
The problem is, I have no clue how they would go about making controller sprays more like MNK sprays. The nature of a joystick is just so different than a mouse's.
As far as I can tell, the aim assist doesn't actually react to recoil movement, in addition to being able to remove all vertical recoil on both inputs by just aiming left or right so it probably wouldn't have been the biggest deal even if it was the case.
9:23 Why would I want to take movement deduction when controller can do the same movements except for moving while looting in a box?
I started playing apex on PS4 and I was beeming and lasering people. Then I bough my first PC and started playing with mnk. It took me around 1 year of practice, 300+hours in aim trainer to get to the aim level I got with controller kinda.. And its not even consistent at all. But then I needed to learn the movement as well. Get used to the keyboard on the left also.. It got me so annoyed that I quit playing apex, because I though it doesnt matter how much I practice.. I'll never be on the level of a controller player, because they don't have to practice that much as be better then you in aim.
I switches to CS and valo, because of that.
where I can only play against mnk player and I saw myself dominating.
I hate apex for all the controller player, it really took the fun of me.
Sometimes after a hard day I just want to chill and play my favourite games, but you can't do that in apex. A controller player will kill you so chilled he could sleep and beem you. On mnk you can practice as much as you want.. without focus you will kill no one.
It's just not fun at all if you need to actuall tryhard to get kills while the controller players can just play and will kill you.
Stopped playing apex a year ago after 5,000hrs. Got tired of all the visual bullshit resulting in guess situations and all the little bugs/exploits/issues adding up into a slow burning perpetual frustration. Best decision I ever made in my gaming life. Much happier now.
Your controller has gyro, try giving it a whirl. Though valves software has been trash for years but it should give you the rough experince.
i think you definitely summed up perfectly why i love watching god-tier aimers and movement players and think i want to play apex, but then jump into the game and hate it. It's not just that they're good, but that in the clips they choose to use in videos, they have risen above all the forced camera movement and visual clutter and it looks so smooth. But in reality most of the time those things will get in the way for everyone, they've just curated these clips where it either isn't an issue or they're lucky and manage to aim through it. When you try to do what they do it's infuriating because the thing that is hindering you is not your own skill but something outside of your control.
The problem with this is that different games handle aim assist in different ways. Some games I've played literally feel like you have aimbot while others it doesn't make a massive difference. For example I played with the same controller on fortnite mobile and on PC and by comparison mobile literally felt like it was aiming for me. So I think aim assist is necessary to have controller be at least somewhat viable against keyboard and mouse but it shouldn't be so broken that keyboard and mouse become completely obsolete.
It's not about competitive integrity in these crossplay fps games. It's about money...
If these company's allowed their player base to see their actual raw skill the player retention would drop.
It would effect their bottom line so I know it won't change..
They got to keep the illusion of skill alive to farm people for cash. Billions to be made in these crossplay games.
0 ms tracking on strafing targets, while its making all the micros adjustments even if they are lagging is insane....
At this point I see no need to respect controller as in input at all.
Based on my comparison, the best way to explain AA’s advantage is that on controller it’s more forgiving for imprecise aim. Like with MNK you have to be more precise with aiming and compensating for things like bullet travel. But on controller there’s times where shots hit when maybe it shouldn’t. And with ALC you can basically “tune” out overshooting your aim.
12:15 this infuriates me when games do this and there is no option for a static crosshair.
Why does everyone act like Aim Assist is a necessity? Professional gamepad players should be prepared to use Gyro instead, especially with Gyro+ Look Flick. This is much better than relying on a controller scheme that requires Aimbot Assist.
Because almost no one knows about it.
i love your non mouse review videos, always so detailed, informative, and relevant
My main issue with aim assist is that if feels like it completely removes recoil. Another one is it appears there are no ifs/conditional codes included on aim assist (smoke, stuns, etc.). Its like the devs are lazy and put in there if within this bubble aim will always be in the middle.
Also it shouldn't magnetize. For me for aim assist to be fair (there is still decent skill involved) it should just slow down the aim to stay in place.
The forced camera movement when hot dropping or when you drop from height is one of the reason I can't play anyone else other than Horizon. If that's a crutch, then i think that's a problem with the game's overall design.
The forced camera movement when firing weapons is also genuinely rage inducing, I grew up on games like Unreal Tournament and Quake. Even more modern games like R6 Siege doesn't have the crazy visual clutter of the muzzle flash. You shouldn't be blinded by your own weapon.
Actually, even for fighting games, keyboards are turning out to be better than people thought traditionally and newer fighting game controllers are inspired by keyboard inputs (no joy stick or dpad).
Oh it's not just me that complains the moves aren't working on controllers? I thought I was just bad, but yeah I actually found it easier on keyboard. That's coming from someone who played Street Fighter II on arcade as a kid and then Alpha 2 on Playstation as a teen.
@@RocketJumpNinjaOn ssb melee for example, its kind of the exact opposite from this video, people started to use keyboard-style inputs (Boxx as an example), and I've heard the debate is a little heated
Ironically: Gyro Aiming (comes with your PlayStation, Nintendo Switch controllers, Steam Controller and probably Steam Deck) gives them less "limited" than with joystick.
Definitely comes with the steam deck.
Gyro Aim.
Nough said. The fact AA is so overpowered that the competitive scene has transitioned from MnK to sticks says it all.
Gyro Aim mimicks a mouse for controllers and if implemented well, its highly intuitive and reactive while having the ability to cut out jitters. Ive heard that the Alpakka controller is amazing since it uses 2 Gyroscopes in its controllers (one in each handle) and is super intuitive.
More devs (and players) should embrace gyro aim as an input type. Ive used it for some time now as a couch controller player.
Best video on the topic I've seen yet. Great work!
Controllers need to be reworked and rebuilt. Instead of rightstick they must get nice and precise touchpad(not crappy as laptops have) and gyro. Aim assist must be removed. I am gyro controller player via app called Rewasd and when i playing with ingame controller setting with aim assist it's freaking ridiculous how massive is help of aim asssist.
the solution is simple. Gyro aiming on controllers. anyone that has USE gyro aiming (like steam controller, ps5, pro controller on PC with steam input) knows its like 90% of aiming with a mouse.
This ^^^
I agree, the issue is still the skill gap and investment to learn to use it. I think something like that needs to be required with perhaps a new title where it sets the expectation. If you suddenly take casuals abilities away where they can't perform to the standard they're used to, they'll quit. So it's the answer, how it deployed and made a requirement is a different issue.
getting beamed with prowler and all the bullets just locked to you is definitely 'fair'
"it doesn't aim for you" next few words out the roller shitters mouth "its giving you small adjustments".... that is aiming for you no matter how marginal rotational assist at 0 ms response time is IT IS aiming for you. Its doing the hardest thing in the game (micro and macro adjusting for every movement made) constantly at inhuman reaction times.
As someone who has put tens of thousands of hours on controller and around 7k hours on KB&M the verdict for me has always been that controllers dominate in CCQ, for medium range its pretty even with mouse slightly being better and for long range engagements the mouse dominates. However, if a game is recoil intensive like PUBG, for example, the mouse quickly becomes the dominant peripheral for all ranges of engagement.
A really interesting take that I have not really heard before and one I think has a lot of merit, however, until rotational aim assist has a latency added to it to make it less instantaneous I think it will still reign supreme.
One other thing I think needs to be mentioned is the casual/new player. To have good tracking on a controller takes very little investment. A months worth of evenings. To develope the same competency on mnk takes hundreds of hours. That ought also to be a consideration. Aim assist makes it all but impossible for a new mnk player to compete and will drive many away long before they reach the competency to compete with an average controller player let alone a highly skilled one.
It also cancels out recoil
I am so happy XDefiant will not only have an toggle for crossplay, but also for input-based matchmaking.
I think you're 100% right, they've made it a horrible experience for mouse and key while making casual controller players gods... It's such a stupid thing... I'd like for someone over at Activision to remove aim assist for controllers for a weekend, so controller players will figure out just how shite they truly are. They'll never do that though. Turning aim assist down even a quarter from how high they have it turned up now would be a good start for M&K. Great video RJN 👍
There’s nothing I can add to an already amazing video. Thanks for the hard work that was put into it.
I feel like MNK takes a lot of effort to get to a certain level of aim, and to get to that level on controller with aim assist takes less effort.
Now how does gyro play into this? Especially the part about rocket jumps and whatnot. I personally think it should be adopted more as it closes the gap and doesn't require aim assist.
I've always believed that the rotational AA was a little too strong on controller, but I never really considered the jerky camera and recoil difference. I thought it was because mouse input was more direct and it was my aim being shaky.
The main issue with aim assist especcially in Apex is ability to tracking enemy while your apponent strafes. Even the best apex players cant predict every strafe enemy gonna make, when controller players track it 100%. Sad part if we devs rid of the aa player base gonna strugle a lot, i think it might be better if aa would be like 20-15% on pc
why not separate the pools?
money money money
less players
@BarnOwl-cg1ls getting these numbers out of your ass it seems
It's so nice to hear about what my friends and I have been discussing for more than three years, when I come after training in kovaak's, I can't shoot, not because I don't know how, but because I don't understand where to shoot
AA kicks in when u do move the aiming stick, so the anti mirror is a better choice rather then the mirror strafe you did
Oh true, ok yeah I didn't look that far into the "how to", thanks for the tip!
Also kicks in when moving yoyr left stick.
Playing shooter games where the aiming is done FOR you is like ordering a steak dinner and saying you cooked it
Great video! I have 3k hours and play both mnk and controller. What i learned is that aim assist is OP if you understand how it works and use it where it is strongest. (Stand in corner and widepeek with a beam weapon like r99 when you hear footsteps) I started out on controller but didnt utilize aim assist when i switched back after playing 1500 hours mnk i started using aim assist to its fullest and i have never gotten so many oneclips in my life. I played classic first and then changed to 4-3 Linear(op af). As a player on both inputs i think high lvl controller players should be nerfed somehow, but new players should gain full assists. sidenote i think high ping controller players are the scariest ingame (Genburten)
As an MnK player who struggles to use roller, how do you “use aim assist” properly?
@@vecterstrafe one way and pull your right stick down slightly the opposite way
crazy thing I've been gravitating towards the single shot guns as well, I never realized it but you're totally right the camera movement has been killing us.
12:17 - Yep. Visual clutter, visual recoil etc. has crept into FPS games and it's super annoying. Most games require a centre point / crosshair to keep track... One game (Battlefield V) was tied to weapon sights rather than centre screen, so when moving it wasn't centre. Spread-to-recoil conversion as well meaning the gunplay was random. Lol!
This is the best explanation and visual evidence of what really is going on. I got to the end of the road last week. Retired from Apex. Love this content Rocket!
I learnt aiming fundamentals in CSGO over a period of 4 years. After a year of playing Apex, I can comfortably say my aim is in the exact same place as before. I've gotten better at handling weapons, but my aim is the exact same. I haven't given it much thought but this video is a start.
The biggest buff they could give to Rampart would be removing the muzzle flash from her ultimate minigun, it is literally impossible to see what you are aiming at beyond a short distance.
Great video, but I'd disagree with BulletL that we would accept a movement nerf in exchange for an AA nerf - movement is balanced enough right now, and lowering its potential and skill ceiling would never be healthy. Superglides and many other movement techniques are possible for skilled controller players, especially if you use steam configs, and attacking emergent mechanics the community has discovered (even ones that are somewhat MnK exclusive) wouldn't be popular. Cleaning the screen up and removing visual clutter would give MnK the same smooth gameplay as roller, and allow us to focus on raw aim. Approaching the problem with a buff is an infinitely better solution to attacking everyone with nerfs
give controller players the same movement options as mnk (moving while looting, tap strafing turned into an intentional mechanic with a visual cue, make superglides not dependent on framerate by also turning it into an intentional mechanic, etc.) and then nerf AA or change its properties
crossplay on apex was the most half-assed thing ive ever seen in my life and its insane how big of a hole the devs dug themselves with this
@@eirin481 Absolutely not. Moving while looting and tap strafing during fights (while actually turning away from your opponent and not just rotating your joystick) would be great for controller players. But there is no need whatsoever to make superglides or tap strafing any easier than it is now. They're difficult to learn, but extremely rewarding for the time invested in them. Why make it easier just because others don't want to actually learn and practice these movement techniques, which really don't help you in a fight?
@@kaykier one is framerate dependent and the other one is coded in such a way that controllers can't access it without scripts, thats why
consistency is what i want; they could keep the just-frame timing but these things need to be universal mechanics
i play slayer in accent core, weird execution barriers are cool to me, but this would be like if his links weren't accessible for pad players but they got a dash macro for cheap BDC inputs instead
@@eirin481 Do you have a source that confirms controller players are unable to tap strafe because of the coding?
Making universal mechanics easier is what led to a series of complaints in games such as: SF4 to SF5, Tekken 6/Tag to Tekken 7, Mortal Kombat X to Mortal Kombat 11, Strive, etc etc. Apex, from a Competitive standpoint, is already in shambles with a two different inputs competing against one another and rotational aim assist. Even in pubs, it's much worse and more difficult for m&k players going against controller players.
The last thing Apex really needs is controller having even more accessibility to options that would make it even more superior, than it already is, to m&k.
@@kaykier roller at the top level is arguably still not as good at mnk, its just annoying as fuck in pubs because everyone W keys each other where aim assist is most effective
while my claim about the coding of how analog movement works is a bit vague, the lurch mechanic is only abusable by mnk because of the speed inputs can be registered via the mousewheel or even manually mashing the W key (though to a lesser effectiveness, obviously), which controller players, especially on console, cannot abuse
and yeah, sure, watering down mechanics and making things more accessible can be a slippery slope, i believe the issues all of those games have are multitudes more than simply making some inputs easier
making superglides not framerate dependent, and by a certain extent, hardware dependent, is in my opinion the equivalent of the 3 frame input buffer in xrd that older guilty gear titles lacked, for instance; it just makes shit less frustrating most of the time, and although it does make shit like links admittedly easier, it does so without reducing spectator friendliness or player enjoyment
the best course of action i think respawn can dish out is an overall nerf or rework of aim assist, *at least* change how it works, whilst reducing visual noise, giving controller players more movement options, and actually supporting gyro aim officially on the principle that the playing ground should be as equal as possible
That BulletL guy is an absolute monster with the PK. God damn! Great vid btw.
Destiny 2 has the same problem where AA is far too strong and sticky, with a large hitbox and reaction to button press way off target, so much people massively started using chronus zen, and xim to use mnk with the aim assist.
Yeah, the Cronus is being used massively in apex.
No way to compete without aim assist beyond Diamond ranks.
I think they just shouldn't have people with different inputs in the same game
Aim Assist should only initially assist to the target after maintaining crosshair near the target for 200ms "or the average human reaction time". After said time of 200ms the aim assist should incrementally fall off of assisting 25% every 50ms giving the player aim assist for another 200ms.
Controllers need to change with the times. I think that AA is a bandaid that just doesn't cut it anymore, it needs to be replaced with gyro.
Great video but you missed the third input which is gyro aiming. Imo it's what controller players should start learning. There will be no need for aim assist when people start getting good with it
Aim assist is ruining today's FPS experience.
The goal being to know how to aim, there is no need for help, assistance on the pretext that a device is not made for that.
The controller is not made to play an FPS, it comes from consoles, business history.. we had to find a way to play an FPS with a controller. And if we put a semi aimbot? At a certain percentage... what a good idea... (damn).
We must separate these two devices, or at least leave the choice to choose! Personally, I don't want aim assist in my games.
Most playing FPS today with a controller have never known any other way to play it, always with assistance, they do not know the time spent on the keyboard mouse to have a correct level.
the most broken part of aim assist vs mnk is how little effort you put in order to one clip someone in apex versus mnk. It doesnt tire you out at all vs mnk.
Like a lot of other people have said if we could remove visual clutter, maybe add some kind of delay to rotational aim assist. I think the game would be enjoyable.
And personally I’d prefer to have input based matchmaking for ranked. It’s not pro league but it is meant to be competitive so it makes sense to me that in terms of input everyone should be on the same one. I’m pretty sure overwatch disabled AA in competitive.
I don’t think respawn will ever nerf aim assist overall and the reasons are likely player retention and money. Pretty sure majority of the player base on PC is now on controller, so if you nerf it a lot of people will just find a new game to play.
One final thought I have which goes for both inputs is that I wish they’d do something about config usage, I would honestly like to see them remove them.
the solution is gyro aim.
14:23 more than possible with gyro aim
I think there just needs to be a mouse/keyboard/controller counsel that meets up atleast twice a year to go over different things they both can improve on the others inputs to balance it
They’re two different inputs with their own advantages and disadvantages. There’s no way they could ever be made equal. I personally think they should just separate them into two different lobbies. That’s just me though
Yeah that's why controller players just ape you.
@@RowOfMushyTiT not sure what you mean by that
@@Dah_J close range favours controller so maybe that's why so many squads ape.
I just don’t think that there would be enough players to support forced input lobbies. I mean, just look at halo infinite, kb&m lobbies were practically dead so they just had to q into cross play.
I think the issue with separating the inputs for competitive and tournaments would be that it just makes the viewing experience worse overall.
Controllers are garbage without a programming advantage. FPS is a K&M genre and should have stayed that way.
as someone who has been a pro player using both mnk and controller, loved your video Zy, good job
I disagree with all this. Aim Assist is really overpowered in games now, and it shows with top players. Battlefield is a great example of this, they broke aim assist and now you see console players top fragging insanely now, compared to before, and there KD stats have sky rocketed while m&k has lost KD stats. That's why many streamers and pros have stopped gaming competitively and played single player games
Someone talked about "bullet punch" but they mean flinch in games and I agree, give flinch to controller, and remove it from M&K. There you have it, balancing.
Really well done video, Zy. Summarizes why I feel so drained after playing Apex (something I don't feel after other mainstream FPSes). Oh, not to mentioned it is extraordinarily hard to see people in this game (at max FOV which I think is generally the right way to play). Leads to an insanely straining experience overall. But really solid gameplay... so there's that.
Long time viewer, Really good video. I quit Apex because of multiple things, one of them being that the meta became controller first, and as such feeds into the Devs caring about controller gameplay more than K/M. I feel like there should be a separation in K/M and Controller atleast in Ranked or Comp(or maybe even remove/lower Aim Assist in those modes) because as of right now its really straight up stupid to even play the game, every gunfight feels unfair(either in my favor or the enemy's) which for me is just not fun. I got back into Arena shooters because of this but realized that the Genre has died but I still enjoyed Doom 2016 MP(IK its not a "Pure" arena shooter but i like the balance of modern features and progression and the classic gameplay style). As bloodhound says "There's Purity in simple Combat" That applies perfectly to Arena shooters ironically XD.
@BarnOwl-cg1ls yeah thats what really sucks about all of this, Apex is based on Titanfall and Titanfall was such an outstanding game on K/M, and apex at launch was similar but now its just a mess, because of the controller focus.
@BarnOwl-cg1ls agreed, although i have bought a battlepass twice back in the day, but that was when i really wanted to support respawn entertainment and trusted them(and hoped they would use it for TF3 AHAHAHAHAH). But now it doesnt matter, everything about the game is just boring after a few matches.
Rotational aim assist is one of the worst things to happen to FPS games. Creates an input without the user doing so and hinders controller players from building true muscle memory and reaction timing. Would love to see cross play fps games start introducing low visual effect graphic settings that removes all the screen clutter and shake
Controllers SHOULD be inferior in a competitive shooter game because of their design. Mouse aim is 100% affected by skill, so it would be unfair to lose to aim assist in any case. Like saying bad bicycles should get a small motorized assist for bike racing. And m&k can be cheaper than a controller, unlike in the bicycle example.
good analogy
So you're saying that I shouldn't be given aimbot if I want to play the game with a Wiimote steering wheel? M&K gets no aim assist, controller gets .4 or .6, and then I would get 1.0 because I'm using a harder input method than controller. It's the only way to make it "fair".
No fair, my aim bot in my controller is not outperforming your raw talent!
not watching the video yes its op to say otherwise is silly thanks
I fear this argument will never go away. Instead of viewing it as a problem to solve, people treat it like tribalism and beat their chest in defense of their option, while vilifying the opposition
Should have been input based from the beginning. No side will ever be happy.
Not input based, auto aim on/off based.
@@TheRainbowMinion I can respect those that have aim assist off but it's so few that its not worth even coding for.
People want to play with their friends, companies want to make money, crossplay will be here to stay along with the bs that ocmes with it.
@@thenry3600 Input based is the best case scenario. People literally don't play crossplay games because of aim assist, myself included. It would be a win win for everyone.
Racing games have their own version of this. They have three possible inputs. Wheel+Pedals, controller, and M+KB. Both controller and M+KB get hidden assists in order to make them viable, with M+KB getting the most hidden assists.
A big issue there is that a lot of people don't even realize they are being assisted because they've understandably never tried wheel and pedals. Many think that wheel and pedals is an unfair advantage. The majority also don't know about things like deadzones and steering linearity, which are usually set in a way to ensure that any controller, including ones that are failing with stick drift, can play the game. This severely nerfs the potential of controller. These settings can easily be changed, but most people are either ignorant of them or are so adverse to change that they refuse to change them, even to their own benefit. So there is a purveying feeling that wheel and pedals has an "unfair" advantage in racing games, when actually the opposite is true.
I'm a controller player in racing games. I wanted to make the switch to wheel and pedals but it aggravated an old injury and had to go. I've made it into top 500 global in multiple racing games, and I probably still have some upside if I really focused on the genre. All on a non-ideal input with hidden assists added (I turn off all non-hidden assists). I'm super glad that I'm able to enjoy these games so much on controller since i can't play the ideal input, but i feel a little uncomfortable with how competitive I'm able to be on a non-ideal input.
Side note: your theory on visual clutter and annoying systems creating toxicity does seem to hold some water considering the recent success of battlebit.
Either no cross plat, or fine tune the way aim assist works. Do not move crosshair without player input. Slow the sens to stick with enemies ONLY if they are pushing the joystick in the same exact direction. Imagine playing badminton and your opponent did perfect corner smashes every high ball you played. With good players, all they need to do is mixup drop shots and you'll struggle so much against them. Thats what aim assist does to competition
There are more controller players on PC than mnk, crossplay is not nearly as big of an issue.
been watching your content since my inception into mnk. always top teir content.
there is no debate. you should never get any "help" from the game in any form
i agree about the clutter in apex tho, its like having epilepsy attack trying to play that game