@@masongregory278 it takes oxygen to burn. There's no oxygen inside the system or equipment. It's illegal to lose Freon while recovering, if you don't know how to recovery refrigerants properly, you might have trouble. I've got a burner I built, I just burn the propane instead of recovery. I'm not a believer in the C02 theory anyway. There's way to many other things contributing to warning the place. Cutting down a Forest and replacing with Pavement really warms up an area. Some cities create local changes in the weather.
@@masongregory278 one more thing, I'm more concerned about the customer than I am you. If you don't feel comfortable with propane, you don't know enough about it. However the customer depends on us. Installing a gas furnace, or other appliance is very dangerous to the customer if we don't do it correctly. Propane can completely fill up a cellar and become odorless and stay put indefinitely. Propane heating can have a slow leak and leak for weeks or longer. An HVAC system on would hold 1/4 of a BBQ grill tank. In fact a BBQ grill tank inside the basement would be much more dangerous than an HVAC system. You are trained not to get blown up. You should know fuel to air ratio.
@@Bryan-Hensley i’m not a technician but you don’t use a vacuum or suck out natural gas or use a compressor it’s OK if it’s piped but it’s compressed there is a big difference you take a vacuum and remove natural gas from one of those pipes and compress it propane is compressed but it comes out of the tank like a natural gas because of a regulator there is a safer way I wouldn’t want to be a tech sucking it out into a vacuum and And playing around with that it’s not like turning on your stove
I am so glad I retire this year and the only reason I can retire is I moved to a aria that it strong union. I got organized 22 years ago started as a 3rd year apprentice ended up making fourman with the company I work for the same year then general fourman before 1 1/2 Year's in doing industrial service work. Got my start in the army have changed companies 3 times all customers follow me everywhere I want
I have a new LG 8k btu window unit with r32 and a refrigerator and freezer with r600a and was quite alarmed by the warnings in the instructions but this seems like the way we are heading
Hydrocarbon refrigerants despite their high flammability ratings tend to be the best. If I was going to design a system using A2L, A2, or even A3 refrigerants, why not go with an outdoor chiller unit and have that unit pump chilled glycol into the residence? Not only does this prevent any flammable refrigerant gas from getting built up in the residence due to a potential leak, but you could easily have a multi zoned system similar to a mini split set up which could make the entire system even more energy efficient. To me this would be the best solution for non A1 refrigerants.
Our company office over the last three years have had three Trane 75 ton reciprocating compressors failed and replaced. The last one, just last week. The R22 had been previously replaced with MO99 when the service company installed this last unit they had to switch back to R22. The tech explained Trane would not warranty a "new" compressor with MO99. This scenario is very confusing. Why would Trane insist on a refrigerant that was no longer in production (at least in US). I'm seeing some long term legal remedies here. This ain't over yet. Pretty soon it will be only the lawyers that can afford in home air conditioning.
This is a fantastic video that you put a lot of time into research of the information. I think that going to flammable refrigerants is a great idea given even though given the flammability issues. I have a 2 ½ ton geothermal system that I used R290 to operate the system. I designed the system from the ground up to minimize the total charge of refrigerant and safety in mind. Given safety, Systems must always be labeled to which flammable refrigerant is in it NO air must remain in the system as a proper vacuum must take place When opening up a system to remove components, ALWAYS purge the system with nitrogen to reduce flammability Keep a fan blowing around the workspace to remove any vapor from building up Ultimately it is everyone who pays the price for poor safety practices, but given all the other plumbing in the houses with gas lines, the amount of refrigerant in a system is a set amount, unlike a continuous gas leak from a gas line. Many products have used these refrigerants and have proven the safety of them.
I agree. Since 410 came out I do wish they would have gone back to a more low pressure refrigerant, but it doesn't sound like it's going to go that way.
The R 32 evils …. Mildly flammable ! What does that mean? It’s pretty hard to burn and you’d need to hold it’s feet to the fire to get any flame . It’s certainly not going to be recommended as a fire starter if you go on “ Survivor” ! Compared to let’s say natural gas or propane being used in houses all over the place. Known carbon monoxide killers to occupants . People with their hair on fire about R32 have been working with it for years…… 50 % of R410a is R32 and when it comes to the economics and technical aspects of working with a blend because you have a blended medium that you’re working with when there’s a leak some of the components leak out more readily than others giving you an unbalanced mixture. So technically speaking, you shouldn’t just top off a unit that’s a leaker even if it was just a bad Schrader valve . you really should take all of it out and weigh in a complete new charge. So it would be the original balanced blend , as one should do with any blended refrigerant or any mixture or blend for the future😂
That’s what happened with the 410 a in the puron if you can remember do the research carrier was leading the way when they could’ve used some other refrigerant. Took 20 to 30 years to fix
I wouldn't call it phase out. I'm just sure that when 22 systems age and roll.oit of the market, there won't be the same need for 407c. But there are 407c units going in everyday now, so that will take 20 to 30 years
QUESTION if chlorine in CFCs is so dangerous & so much of a pollutant, then why has Clorox bleach not been banned I have not seen its price go up 100s of times like R22, since bleach is used in all water supplies + sewer treatments plants and almost every cleaning supplies world wide explain that to me please or was the reason it was banned is that when burned it produced PHOSTOXIN ? and they did not want you to have it ???
1. since cfc products destroy the ozone couldnt an ozone generator such as a uvc germicidal lamp be used to destroy the cfcs? i.e is the reaction 1 to 1 destruction ratio so 1 cfc molecule destroys 1 ozone molecule and in the process destroys the cfc molecule so so slowly venting the cfcs through a box containing a germicidal uvc lamp would prevent it from harming the ozone layer? 2. couldnt co2 be added into the system so if there was a leak it would put out the fire caused by the leak? 3. we already are seeing flammable refrigerants being used in the home. i tear down window air conditioners and refrigerators for scrap metal and last year i tore down a mid sized cube refrigerator that you would see in dorms and student housing. that refrigerator was charged with r600a witch is lighter fuel. fortunately for safety the gas leaked out so the unit was empty and would not get cold so there was no safety issues.
I sure like the idea of CO2, as it seems very benign. I've heard that it needs to be run at higher pressures though. Personally, I'd love to see mono bloc units come to the USA, where you basically have a chiller/boiler unit with 4-6 water port connections. One loop is for the external environment, the other loop is the conditioned environment, and a potential 3rd loop is for hot water generation. No external refrigerant lines, you have options with the water loops of using geothermal or an outside air-water coil, inside you can plumb pex lines to an air-water air handler, radiant flooring, individual room radiators, etc. You can put the mono bloc unit inside or outside, etc. Running refrigerant lines though a house structure to move heat around seems antiquated.
I love the "mono bloc" setup you mention and have seen such setups (including air source to water heat pumps that can drive domestic hot water) in countries outside of the US for decades. I'm so frustrated with the lack of options in the US. Even the currently running DoE Cold Climate Heat Pump Challenge doesn't seem to address domestic hot water integration.
Good video, sort of goes with your video of the local companies selling fear and freon phase out. Either way you go some refrigerant is being phased out. Sucks for homeowners because they are no better off with R410A than having a freon system.
Your last question? Who looses out the most? The end user, aka the customer. Cost of 410a from July '21 to April '22 has increase 710%. It all seems like a big scam. As in DuPont and the gov't colluding together to put these patents in place to expire at certain intervals in order to usher in a newly patented refrigerant. I understand that refrigerant released into the atmosphere has the potential to damage the ozone. So why not focus all the energy in training and better methods of connections. E.g. move everyone away from flare fittings instead of recreating the wheel every 30 years.
Your comment makes me think why doesn’t it make the most sense to get away from all patented refrigerants, just switch to R-290 now? No short term R-32. In England they are already installing R-290 based air-to-water heat pumps and they work great. They’ve also been using R-32 for years with any fire issues, but that’s just reality, doesn’t sound scary enough for a good video.
Yes. R1234YF needs to be recovered even though it has no ozone depletion potential and it supposedly has almost no global warming potential either. Not sure why, I wondered the same thing. Natural refrigerants such as propane, butane, CO2, ammonia, and water don't need to be recovered though.
@Fred Miller Ozone Depleting Substances (R-11, R-12) also have high 1,000’s of times equivalent of CO2, but so do super pollutant HFC’s like R-410a and R-134a. R-32 and other refrigerants are highly polluting at 675-750 CO2 equivalent and there about so they are only an interim less-damaging option. Actual “low GWP” means 1, 3, 4 times CO2 equivalent like CO2 itself (we use it as refrigerant in large grocery freezer systems), R-290, R-600a (now required in refrigerators in NYS for example). There is an argument for recovering and reusing them even though they are not proprietary synthetic chemicals like R-1234y. Even refined CO2 takes energy to make ready for use as a refrigerant, so recovering everything needs to become the norm (even refrigerant that is contaminated) for processing and proper handling.
I remember the days when I used R502, R12, and R22 ! The skies where blue and beautiful ! Now we use the new refrigerants and the skies are getting white ! Have you ever seen the chemicals coming out of jets ? I guess that has no effect on the skies but a leaking refrigerator on the ground does! I live next to the ocean and watch the tides everyday ! Night and day for YEARS !!! It hasn't changed at all ! The water level has been the same for decades ! It's easy to repeat the words of those that are controlling our lives with deceptions of Ozone layers being depleted but A/C guys ! I've been watching this industry go down the wrong path. They made us get rid of R502, R12. and R22 because it was depleting the ozone and made us use the new ones to solve the problem Now they're doing it all over again with more new refrigerants ! This is just a game and it's destroying the industry and causing more cost to the consumer . Now they're actually using explosive refrigerants as the replacement ?? LOL I'm so glad to be out of this trade ! 👍
The sky is falling and you must buy the green hard hats. Anyone wearing a RED hard hat will be fined $100000. And get unfriended . For real who really deals with the ozone or some obscure Antarctic lizard or something so remote and unquantifiable that real proof exists. This is nothing more than government protection racket to make you buy new products every 7 years. The end. Fin!
Agree. I remember using R502 and R12 on a regular basis 30+ years ago, and would still use R22 equipment if is was available. Thinking seriously about retiring from the industry as well. Things are getting crazy with the "Global Warming" nonsense and all the insane regulations here in California.
@@MichaelDBiggs Hey Michael, Thanks for the reply ! Those days are gone ! The refrigeration industry has become ridiculous with the new technology Working on some of the new equipment is like working on a Space Shuttle ! Cooling air and freezing water has turned into an electronic joke. I retired at 52, ten years ago. I still talk with my contractor friends and listen to all their nightmares. Lol I had my company in Southern California! TradeWinds Climate Control !! Take care bro !👍
It seems that Europe likes R488a in place of R22 and 404a. These high cost refrigerant blends I hope in time will lower. For now they will likely be passed on to the customer and service contractors. Honeywell must love their patents.
There are some side job Bobs who actually use micron gauges, flow nitrogen and charge to suoerheat and subcool. I have seen some shitty work from big companies as well.
@Jimmy Ray you put your finger on the real issue: following proper procedure for working on gas appliances or even propane appliances of any kind is what creates safety for technicians full stop. It’s just not hard to understand.
I agree totally with your concept but big corporations and that’s a big problem money comes into play here and status no concern about ethics very good video
@jerry Lockhart - you are right, ozone depleting substances and HFC’s should have been banned 20 years ago. Natural refrigerants are not patentable and work great, so we should have gone to them a long time ago especially since the fire risk is not what this video says it is if you follow proper procedure.
Obviously the consumer will be the big loser. It is just adding more expense to the business owners which.really is ridiculous. Let California pass there laws, if they can't get equipment for replacement they might nullify the new laws.
Not a big deal. Any refrigeratant needs air to burn. People have unlimited amounts of natural gas and propane for furnaces and stoves but freal out about a few pounds of refrigerant in a sealed system.
You are not comparing apples to apples. HVAC are pressurized systems unlike your natural gas system. R600A, R290 and R454B are like ticking time bombs inside your house.
@@bghydrohurtme I have NEVER seen a refrigerator or air conditioner with a catastrophic leak. All of the refrigerant would need to leak out at the same time their was an ignition source. Without air it is impossible for the device to explode or even burn from the inside out. A gas furnace, stove, or oven is thousands of times more dangerous. Watch out, the sky is falling.
The refrigerant lines carrying flammable gas should have to meet the same code requirements as propane are natural gas there is a limit to presser on those lines
@@davehuber6949 Propane tubing and hosed do meet safety standards. Copper tubing is good to around 600 psi. Propane refrigerant gets nowhere near that.
I agree, and if they do it in Cali, I would think they will do it in the rest of the country because the manufacturers won't want to make separate systems nationwide. We shall see huh?
I don't know how well these new refrigerants will perform, but in my opinion a refrigerant's energy efficiency needs to be prioritized over it's GWP. Even the amount of global warming caused by the system's full refrigerant charge leaking out would be minimal compared to the global warming effect of all the CO2 created generating the electricity needed to run the unit over its 20 or so year lifespan.
My main concern with flammable refrigerants is for the untrained people who try to repair the equipment without knowing the dangers and how to safely perform the work. Just because someone doesn't know what they are doing doesn't mean that they won't mess with the equipment, sometimes out of necessity. For example, I know people who have breathing problems that medically need AC, and if their unit breaks down and they don't have the money to hire an HVAC tech they will probably either try to fix it themself or have a friend or family member who doesn't know much try to fix it, which could end in disaster especially if the system is full of flammable gas. I think flammable refrigerants can be safely used in small appliances like refrigerators that have a tiny charge, I actually repaired and recharged a window AC someone gave me with R290 refrigerant (propane) and it works great, it;s been cooling my garage for over a year now. I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone else does the same though. The R290 I bought is scented and I did take appropriate safety precautions such as labeling the system as containing R290 refrigerant with a couple large yellow stickers just in case someone else messes with it. Who knows, someone could steal it or something. I wouldn't be comfortable with my central AC system being filled with several pounds of propane though because in the unlikely event that the evaporator failed, I wouldn't want my house turning into a huge bomb. Unlike a small appliance, a central AC system could contain enough gas to form an explosive mixture with the air in the entire house. An apartment complex I used to live at recharged their R22 AC units with R22A (propane sold as an R22 replacement) because the maintenance guys weren't licensed and therefore couldn't buy R22 but they could buy propane. What a horrible idea to top off a leaking central AC system with a flammable gas!
R427a is the best replacement for R22 I already use it for awhile you don't need to replace nothing just removed the R-22 and at what you need to add to the unit so is the best replacement for the R22 piece of junk
If you have any actual concern for fire risk, please have a licensed electrician throughly inspect your home - they will identify and correct many sources of actual fire risk. I have had a can of butane purchased legally for refilling lighters for years. The amount of flammable material in that small can and my new R-600a refrigerator is similar. If you do the math and understand the physics, wow, there are a LOT bigger things to worry about in your home like any poorly wired outlet or any natural gas appliance of any kind. This is so completely NOT a real problem to worry about.
Hell, I saw a video of an R290 refrigerator of a California home that exploded to the point it blew the doors off the hinges, and distorted the whole cabinet from within the cabinet. Had the customer came downstairs for a night snack, it may have well killed him. Fortunately I don’t think there was any fire. Do a youtube search and watch this. I fail to see why they can’t make a safer refrigerant that is low pressured like R12 was....
Straight to the point. No A2L or A3 in Public and Residential Buildings. Irrelevant of the Environmental games these manufacturers manipulate!!!. Do you know that A1Class refrigerants introduced in 1928? to replace Ammonia? Do you know that R600a a highly flammable and explosive refrigerant used in home refrigerators in 1993? Do you know the tragedy of Grenfell Tower in London started by an EXPLOSION of Hotpoint/ Whirlpool Refrigerator/Freezer charged with R600a? The big question is why manufacturers like Daikin, Hotpoint, or Carrie (the inventors of AC!) use flammables in Public and Domestic Buildings... The video hits it on the head. Well done guys. Human lives matter more than Environment and Chemical companies and manufacturers are capable of surviving the environment with A1 and with low GWP IF LEAKED.
Flamible gas mixes with flamible compressor oil = napalm bomb if there's a fire under the compressor....like a young tech with a torch...i expect the liability factor will cause insurance companies to drop clients that use r32
Do you think someone who takes a torch to any system, even R-12 without evacuating it and flowing nitrogen should be working in HVAC? You can’t protect that person from themselves now, lol.
Thank you for sharing this valuable information, as data do not forget that a Mexican scientist did a great job to discover the hole in the ozone layer, his name rs Mario Molina, worked in the government cabinet during the Barack Obama period.
I’ve been in the HVAC business for 40 years this video is an absolute joke there is no way they will ever be flammable refrigerant in household air conditioners
You should be well aware that things always change. Daikin is already transitioning to HFO-32 for its ductless systems and Carrier announced in 2018 plans to transition to HFO-454B in its ducted systems. So you are simply mistaken on this assertion.
Like your videos but I personally see no problem with mildly flammable refrigerant they’re quite difficult to ignite and they don’t like to stay lit all by themselves without a ignition source continuously feeding the fuel source. Yes it’s all about the money that’s for sure and the one with the most dollars will win. So we just have to suck it up go for some good training I have no problem even working on highly flammable refrigerant it’ll just help get rid of the bad technicians and if the owners are not competent as contractors to work on flammable refrigerant they should be removed from our industry immediately otherwise Darwins theory will take over and do it for us.
Ive been an AC tech for over 40 years and I can tell you Ive seen some huge fires when taking apart refrigerant lines to replace systems with the torch with R12 and R410 as the oil is flammable, so dont think the old stuff was perfectly safe. Id call it mildly flammable all day long. I dont think these new refrigerants are going to be way more dangerous, except for R600 which I understand is purified Propane. Dont take a torch to that in someones kitchen changing a compressor. R32 and R454 is supposed to be less flammable than Ammonia, Ive never seen Ammonia burn but I hear it may be a future fuel for cars. I miss the days we use R12 for cars, house and refrigeration. Trust me, all of these refrigerants are about money. You buy my system you buy my refrigerant, thats all it is. How they can install these new central air conditioners with these refrigerants that are banned by the uniform mechanical code is beyond me.
@@albertwilson7239 That’s just because of incompetent untrained technicians who don’t belong in the field in the first place Owners lack of training managers lack of training technicians lack of training all due to lack of education. Should be no fires with competent individuals
@@coldfinger459sub0 I ve been doing air conditioning over 40 years and just retired and am do glad I dont have to be around creeps like you anymore. Ive forgotten more than you will ever know.
Have any of you techs in the residential market had to handle flammable refrigerants set up in a home? How does that make you feel?
I have to work on gas furnaces, gas fireplaces and gas water heaters. Can you believe they use flammable gases that's piped in the house? OMG.
@@masongregory278 it takes oxygen to burn. There's no oxygen inside the system or equipment. It's illegal to lose Freon while recovering, if you don't know how to recovery refrigerants properly, you might have trouble. I've got a burner I built, I just burn the propane instead of recovery. I'm not a believer in the C02 theory anyway. There's way to many other things contributing to warning the place. Cutting down a Forest and replacing with Pavement really warms up an area. Some cities create local changes in the weather.
@@masongregory278 one more thing, I'm more concerned about the customer than I am you. If you don't feel comfortable with propane, you don't know enough about it. However the customer depends on us. Installing a gas furnace, or other appliance is very dangerous to the customer if we don't do it correctly. Propane can completely fill up a cellar and become odorless and stay put indefinitely. Propane heating can have a slow leak and leak for weeks or longer. An HVAC system on would hold 1/4 of a BBQ grill tank. In fact a BBQ grill tank inside the basement would be much more dangerous than an HVAC system. You are trained not to get blown up. You should know fuel to air ratio.
@@Bryan-Hensley i’m not a technician but you don’t use a vacuum or suck out natural gas or use a compressor it’s OK if it’s piped but it’s compressed there is a big difference you take a vacuum and remove natural gas from one of those pipes and compress it propane is compressed but it comes out of the tank like a natural gas because of a regulator there is a safer way I wouldn’t want to be a tech sucking it out into a vacuum and And playing around with that it’s not like turning on your stove
I am so glad I retire this year and the only reason I can retire is I moved to a aria that it strong union. I got organized 22 years ago started as a 3rd year apprentice ended up making fourman with the company I work for the same year then general fourman before 1 1/2 Year's in doing industrial service work. Got my start in the army have changed companies 3 times all customers follow me everywhere I want
I have a new LG 8k btu window unit with r32 and a refrigerator and freezer with r600a and was quite alarmed by the warnings in the instructions but this seems like the way we are heading
The r600a units are bombs.
R600A is now the standard on almost all small upright freezers sold today.
The camping cooking gas
Hydrocarbon refrigerants despite their high flammability ratings tend to be the best. If I was going to design a system using A2L, A2, or even A3 refrigerants, why not go with an outdoor chiller unit and have that unit pump chilled glycol into the residence? Not only does this prevent any flammable refrigerant gas from getting built up in the residence due to a potential leak, but you could easily have a multi zoned system similar to a mini split set up which could make the entire system even more energy efficient. To me this would be the best solution for non A1 refrigerants.
Our company office over the last three years have had three Trane 75 ton reciprocating compressors failed and replaced. The last one, just last week. The R22 had been previously replaced with MO99 when the service company installed this last unit they had to switch back to R22. The tech explained Trane would not warranty a "new" compressor with MO99. This scenario is very confusing. Why would Trane insist on a refrigerant that was no longer in production (at least in US). I'm seeing some long term legal remedies here. This ain't over yet. Pretty soon it will be only the lawyers that can afford in home air conditioning.
Lol. Good points made there. Crazy world we live in.
In the auto parts there is a new refrigerant in European MVAC. The refrigerant is R-1234yf.
And its flammable
@@HDXFH it does have a Flammable Label on the box.
R-1234YF is now used in most post 2014 MVAC as well
This is a fantastic video that you put a lot of time into research of the information. I think that going to flammable refrigerants is a great idea given even though given the flammability issues. I have a 2 ½ ton geothermal system that I used R290 to operate the system. I designed the system from the ground up to minimize the total charge of refrigerant and safety in mind.
Given safety,
Systems must always be labeled to which flammable refrigerant is in it
NO air must remain in the system as a proper vacuum must take place
When opening up a system to remove components, ALWAYS purge the system with nitrogen to reduce flammability
Keep a fan blowing around the workspace to remove any vapor from building up
Ultimately it is everyone who pays the price for poor safety practices, but given all the other plumbing in the houses with gas lines, the amount of refrigerant in a system is a set amount, unlike a continuous gas leak from a gas line. Many products have used these refrigerants and have proven the safety of them.
I really appreciate your feedback on this. Made some really good safety practices there!
This whole situation just seems too ridiculous. Sounds a lot like a cash machine.
I agree. Since 410 came out I do wish they would have gone back to a more low pressure refrigerant, but it doesn't sound like it's going to go that way.
I agree, not only a cash machine but also like R600A or R290, ticking time bombs in your house now.
The R 32 evils …. Mildly flammable ! What does that mean? It’s pretty hard to burn and you’d need to hold it’s feet to the fire to get any flame . It’s certainly not going to be recommended as a fire starter if you go on “ Survivor” ! Compared to let’s say natural gas or propane being used in houses all over the place. Known carbon monoxide killers to occupants . People with their hair on fire about R32 have been working with it for years…… 50 % of R410a is R32 and when it comes to the economics and technical aspects of working with a blend because you have a blended medium that you’re working with when there’s a leak some of the components leak out more readily than others giving you an unbalanced mixture.
So technically speaking, you shouldn’t just top off a unit that’s a leaker even if it was just a bad Schrader valve . you really should take all of it out and weigh in a complete new charge. So it would be the original balanced blend , as one should do with any blended refrigerant or any mixture or blend for the future😂
11:33
That’s what happened with the 410 a in the puron if you can remember do the research carrier was leading the way when they could’ve used some other refrigerant. Took 20 to 30 years to fix
Does the hotpoint have the R600a
Great video, and very informative. As far as your question about cost, "everyone" pays. Thank you!
R32 and 454B will be on the chopping block too. We were told the same shit about 410A
Are they also phasing out R407C?
I wouldn't call it phase out. I'm just sure that when 22 systems age and roll.oit of the market, there won't be the same need for 407c. But there are 407c units going in everyday now, so that will take 20 to 30 years
QUESTION if chlorine in CFCs is so dangerous & so much of a pollutant, then why has Clorox bleach not been banned I have not seen its price go up 100s of times like R22, since bleach is used in all water supplies + sewer treatments plants and almost every cleaning supplies world wide
explain that to me please or was the reason it was banned is that when burned it produced PHOSTOXIN ? and they did not want you to have it ???
1. since cfc products destroy the ozone couldnt an ozone generator such as a uvc germicidal lamp be used to destroy the cfcs?
i.e is the reaction 1 to 1 destruction ratio so 1 cfc molecule destroys 1 ozone molecule and in the process destroys the cfc molecule so so slowly venting the cfcs through a box containing a germicidal uvc lamp would prevent it from harming the ozone layer?
2. couldnt co2 be added into the system so if there was a leak it would put out the fire caused by the leak?
3. we already are seeing flammable refrigerants being used in the home.
i tear down window air conditioners and refrigerators for scrap metal and last year i tore down a mid sized cube refrigerator that you would see in dorms and student housing.
that refrigerator was charged with r600a witch is lighter fuel.
fortunately for safety the gas leaked out so the unit was empty and would not get cold so there was no safety issues.
I sure like the idea of CO2, as it seems very benign. I've heard that it needs to be run at higher pressures though. Personally, I'd love to see mono bloc units come to the USA, where you basically have a chiller/boiler unit with 4-6 water port connections. One loop is for the external environment, the other loop is the conditioned environment, and a potential 3rd loop is for hot water generation. No external refrigerant lines, you have options with the water loops of using geothermal or an outside air-water coil, inside you can plumb pex lines to an air-water air handler, radiant flooring, individual room radiators, etc. You can put the mono bloc unit inside or outside, etc. Running refrigerant lines though a house structure to move heat around seems antiquated.
I love the "mono bloc" setup you mention and have seen such setups (including air source to water heat pumps that can drive domestic hot water) in countries outside of the US for decades. I'm so frustrated with the lack of options in the US. Even the currently running DoE Cold Climate Heat Pump Challenge doesn't seem to address domestic hot water integration.
Good video, sort of goes with your video of the local companies selling fear and freon phase out. Either way you go some refrigerant is being phased out. Sucks for homeowners because they are no better off with R410A than having a freon system.
How does this video hold up 4yrs later?
At RSD the other day, they had a condenser that had R-407C.
Air Repair seen those from time to time
Yeah this past summer we installed a couple of those a week. A good alternative for folks with aging 22 condensers
Your last question? Who looses out the most? The end user, aka the customer. Cost of 410a from July '21 to April '22 has increase 710%. It all seems like a big scam. As in DuPont and the gov't colluding together to put these patents in place to expire at certain intervals in order to usher in a newly patented refrigerant. I understand that refrigerant released into the atmosphere has the potential to damage the ozone. So why not focus all the energy in training and better methods of connections. E.g. move everyone away from flare fittings instead of recreating the wheel every 30 years.
Totally scammy. I agree with you
Your comment makes me think why doesn’t it make the most sense to get away from all patented refrigerants, just switch to R-290 now? No short term R-32. In England they are already installing R-290 based air-to-water heat pumps and they work great. They’ve also been using R-32 for years with any fire issues, but that’s just reality, doesn’t sound scary enough for a good video.
If the new refrigerant's are no longer harmful to the o zone do you need to recover it ?
I’m guessing we will if it has any global warming potential, even if it has no ozone depletion.
Yes. R1234YF needs to be recovered even though it has no ozone depletion potential and it supposedly has almost no global warming potential either. Not sure why, I wondered the same thing. Natural refrigerants such as propane, butane, CO2, ammonia, and water don't need to be recovered though.
@Fred Miller Ozone Depleting Substances (R-11, R-12) also have high 1,000’s of times equivalent of CO2, but so do super pollutant HFC’s like R-410a and R-134a. R-32 and other refrigerants are highly polluting at 675-750 CO2 equivalent and there about so they are only an interim less-damaging option. Actual “low GWP” means 1, 3, 4 times CO2 equivalent like CO2 itself (we use it as refrigerant in large grocery freezer systems), R-290, R-600a (now required in refrigerators in NYS for example). There is an argument for recovering and reusing them even though they are not proprietary synthetic chemicals like R-1234y. Even refined CO2 takes energy to make ready for use as a refrigerant, so recovering everything needs to become the norm (even refrigerant that is contaminated) for processing and proper handling.
Great presentation, thank you!
BTW, I am a side job Bob. I don't mess with HVAC thou.
R410a is in phase down or phase out?
Nothing yet. 2025 will phase out
I remember the days when I used R502, R12, and R22 !
The skies where blue and beautiful !
Now we use the new refrigerants and the skies are getting white !
Have you ever seen the chemicals coming out of jets ?
I guess that has no effect on the skies but a leaking refrigerator on the ground does!
I live next to the ocean and watch the tides everyday ! Night and day for YEARS !!!
It hasn't changed at all ! The water level has been the same for decades !
It's easy to repeat the words of those that are controlling our lives with deceptions of Ozone layers being depleted but A/C guys !
I've been watching this industry go down the wrong path.
They made us get rid of R502, R12. and R22 because it was depleting the ozone and made us use the new ones to solve the problem
Now they're doing it all over again with more new refrigerants !
This is just a game and it's destroying the industry and causing more cost to the consumer .
Now they're actually using explosive refrigerants as the replacement ?? LOL
I'm so glad to be out of this trade !
👍
The sky is falling and you must buy the green hard hats. Anyone wearing a RED hard hat will be fined $100000. And get unfriended . For real who really deals with the ozone or some obscure Antarctic lizard or something so remote and unquantifiable that real proof exists. This is nothing more than government protection racket to make you buy new products every 7 years. The end. Fin!
@@marshmower 👍
bingo man. your awake but not woke.
Agree. I remember using R502 and R12 on a regular basis 30+ years ago, and would still use R22 equipment if is was available. Thinking seriously about retiring from the industry as well. Things are getting crazy with the "Global Warming" nonsense and all the insane regulations here in California.
@@MichaelDBiggs
Hey Michael,
Thanks for the reply !
Those days are gone !
The refrigeration industry has become ridiculous with the new technology
Working on some of the new equipment is like working on a Space Shuttle !
Cooling air and freezing water has turned into an electronic joke.
I retired at 52, ten years ago. I still talk with my contractor friends and listen to all their nightmares. Lol
I had my company in Southern California!
TradeWinds Climate Control !!
Take care bro !👍
Maybe we could replace it all with Brawndo. It's what air conditioners crave.
It seems that Europe likes R488a in place of R22 and 404a. These high cost refrigerant blends I hope in time will lower.
For now they will likely be passed on to the customer and service contractors. Honeywell must love their patents.
I salute you for this important video.
There are some side job Bobs who actually use micron gauges, flow nitrogen and charge to suoerheat and subcool. I have seen some shitty work from big companies as well.
@Jimmy Ray you put your finger on the real issue: following proper procedure for working on gas appliances or even propane appliances of any kind is what creates safety for technicians full stop. It’s just not hard to understand.
I agree totally with your concept but big corporations and that’s a big problem money comes into play here and status no concern about ethics very good video
Thanks for having the cojones to talk about it on your platform
So why did they let us put it in the system for the last 20 years and 10 years before that and other countries
@jerry Lockhart - you are right, ozone depleting substances and HFC’s should have been banned 20 years ago. Natural refrigerants are not patentable and work great, so we should have gone to them a long time ago especially since the fire risk is not what this video says it is if you follow proper procedure.
Obviously the consumer will be the big loser. It is just adding more expense to the business owners which.really is ridiculous. Let California pass there laws, if they can't get equipment for replacement they might nullify the new laws.
Not a big deal. Any refrigeratant needs air to burn. People have unlimited amounts of natural gas and propane for furnaces and stoves but freal out about a few pounds of refrigerant in a sealed system.
You are not comparing apples to apples. HVAC are pressurized systems unlike your natural gas system. R600A, R290 and R454B are like ticking time bombs inside your house.
@@bghydrohurtme I have NEVER seen a refrigerator or air conditioner with a catastrophic leak. All of the refrigerant would need to leak out at the same time their was an ignition source.
Without air it is impossible for the device to explode or even burn from the inside out.
A gas furnace, stove, or oven is thousands of times more dangerous.
Watch out, the sky is falling.
The refrigerant lines carrying flammable gas should have to meet the same code requirements as propane are natural gas there is a limit to presser on those lines
@@davehuber6949 Propane tubing and hosed do meet safety standards. Copper tubing is good to around 600 psi. Propane refrigerant gets nowhere near that.
@@DannyB-cs9vx not for natural gas are propane service in a building
Way . . . too . . . much . . . babble. Nothing worthwhile until 4:00 minutes in.
Great video
Great info señor Greg!
Thank you sir. Just watched your zoning video!
Greg I hear that’s what you in Cali will be dealing with real soon 2023.
I agree, and if they do it in Cali, I would think they will do it in the rest of the country because the manufacturers won't want to make separate systems nationwide. We shall see huh?
I hope not maybe Trump will put a stop to the EPAs nonsense
Yes
What if there is an indoor coil refrigerant leak and heat strips are energized? Potential fire hazard?
Then I can only conclude that you are 100%against R290
This whole changeover sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. The whole thing sounds like a corporate scam.
Good vid
Been a while since I've seen your name sir!
I don't know how well these new refrigerants will perform, but in my opinion a refrigerant's energy efficiency needs to be prioritized over it's GWP. Even the amount of global warming caused by the system's full refrigerant charge leaking out would be minimal compared to the global warming effect of all the CO2 created generating the electricity needed to run the unit over its 20 or so year lifespan.
Secondary refrigerant can solve the safety issues.
They knew this was gonna happen and they didn’t give a shit
Follow the money
My main concern with flammable refrigerants is for the untrained people who try to repair the equipment without knowing the dangers and how to safely perform the work. Just because someone doesn't know what they are doing doesn't mean that they won't mess with the equipment, sometimes out of necessity. For example, I know people who have breathing problems that medically need AC, and if their unit breaks down and they don't have the money to hire an HVAC tech they will probably either try to fix it themself or have a friend or family member who doesn't know much try to fix it, which could end in disaster especially if the system is full of flammable gas.
I think flammable refrigerants can be safely used in small appliances like refrigerators that have a tiny charge, I actually repaired and recharged a window AC someone gave me with R290 refrigerant (propane) and it works great, it;s been cooling my garage for over a year now. I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone else does the same though. The R290 I bought is scented and I did take appropriate safety precautions such as labeling the system as containing R290 refrigerant with a couple large yellow stickers just in case someone else messes with it. Who knows, someone could steal it or something.
I wouldn't be comfortable with my central AC system being filled with several pounds of propane though because in the unlikely event that the evaporator failed, I wouldn't want my house turning into a huge bomb. Unlike a small appliance, a central AC system could contain enough gas to form an explosive mixture with the air in the entire house. An apartment complex I used to live at recharged their R22 AC units with R22A (propane sold as an R22 replacement) because the maintenance guys weren't licensed and therefore couldn't buy R22 but they could buy propane. What a horrible idea to top off a leaking central AC system with a flammable gas!
Wow what idiots they were LoL! R290 is just refrigerant grade propane
R427 A the best Replace..for R22
R427a is the best replacement for R22 I already use it for awhile you don't need to replace nothing just removed the R-22 and at what you need to add to the unit so is the best replacement for the R22 piece of junk
Don’t sell it
I recently purchased a small refrigerator with r600a refrigerant....Isobutane! Extremely efficient but also extremely flammable! God help us!
whew!
If you have any actual concern for fire risk, please have a licensed electrician throughly inspect your home - they will identify and correct many sources of actual fire risk. I have had a can of butane purchased legally for refilling lighters for years. The amount of flammable material in that small can and my new R-600a refrigerator is similar. If you do the math and understand the physics, wow, there are a LOT bigger things to worry about in your home like any poorly wired outlet or any natural gas appliance of any kind. This is so completely NOT a real problem to worry about.
Hell, I saw a video of an R290 refrigerator of a California home that exploded to the point it blew the doors off the hinges, and distorted the whole cabinet from within the cabinet. Had the customer came downstairs for a night snack, it may have well killed him. Fortunately I don’t think there was any fire. Do a youtube search and watch this. I fail to see why they can’t make a safer refrigerant that is low pressured like R12 was....
There is millions of units out with 22 nothing we can do ,i hope they listen to your video
R290 or propane works better in the existing R22 units due to higher mechanical properties. Cost about $20 to transition from R22 to propane.
Straight to the point. No A2L or A3 in Public and Residential Buildings. Irrelevant of the Environmental games these manufacturers manipulate!!!. Do you know that A1Class refrigerants introduced in 1928? to replace Ammonia? Do you know that R600a a highly flammable and explosive refrigerant used in home refrigerators in 1993? Do you know the tragedy of Grenfell Tower in London started by an EXPLOSION of Hotpoint/ Whirlpool Refrigerator/Freezer charged with R600a? The big question is why manufacturers like Daikin, Hotpoint, or Carrie (the inventors of AC!) use flammables in Public and Domestic Buildings... The video hits it on the head. Well done guys. Human lives matter more than Environment and Chemical companies and manufacturers are capable of surviving the environment with A1 and with low GWP IF LEAKED.
Well said. Human lives were not a factor when considering having flammable refrigerants inside homes.
Flamible gas mixes with flamible compressor oil = napalm bomb if there's a fire under the compressor....like a young tech with a torch...i expect the liability factor will cause insurance companies to drop clients that use r32
Good point. We shall see
Do you think someone who takes a torch to any system, even R-12 without evacuating it and flowing nitrogen should be working in HVAC? You can’t protect that person from themselves now, lol.
Thank you for sharing this valuable information, as data do not forget that a Mexican scientist did a great job to discover the hole in the ozone layer, his name rs Mario Molina, worked in the government cabinet during the Barack Obama period.
Time to retire
Flammable refrigerant is DIY installer killer, literary.
I’ve been in the HVAC business for 40 years this video is an absolute joke there is no way they will ever be flammable refrigerant in household air conditioners
You should be well aware that things always change. Daikin is already transitioning to HFO-32 for its ductless systems and Carrier announced in 2018 plans to transition to HFO-454B in its ducted systems. So you are simply mistaken on this assertion.
Like your videos but I personally see no problem with mildly flammable refrigerant they’re quite difficult to ignite and they don’t like to stay lit all by themselves without a ignition source continuously feeding the fuel source. Yes it’s all about the money that’s for sure and the one with the most dollars will win. So we just have to suck it up go for some good training I have no problem even working on highly flammable refrigerant it’ll just help get rid of the bad technicians and if the owners are not competent as contractors to work on flammable refrigerant they should be removed from our industry immediately otherwise Darwins theory will take over and do it for us.
That's some really good feedback t lech! I agree with you. Training will weed out the real techs from handymen who try to work on HVAC systems
Ive been an AC tech for over 40 years and I can tell you Ive seen some huge fires when taking apart refrigerant lines to replace systems with the torch with R12 and R410 as the oil is flammable, so dont think the old stuff was perfectly safe. Id call it mildly flammable all day long. I dont think these new refrigerants are going to be way more dangerous, except for R600 which I understand is purified Propane. Dont take a torch to that in someones kitchen changing a compressor. R32 and R454 is supposed to be less flammable than Ammonia, Ive never seen Ammonia burn but I hear it may be a future fuel for cars. I miss the days we use R12 for cars, house and refrigeration. Trust me, all of these refrigerants are about money. You buy my system you buy my refrigerant, thats all it is. How they can install these new central air conditioners with these refrigerants that are banned by the uniform mechanical code is beyond me.
@@albertwilson7239 That’s just because of incompetent untrained technicians who don’t belong in the field in the first place
Owners lack of training managers lack of training technicians lack of training all due to lack of education. Should be no fires with competent individuals
@@coldfinger459sub0 I ve been doing air conditioning over 40 years and just retired and am do glad I dont have to be around creeps like you anymore. Ive forgotten more than you will ever know.
@@albertwilson7239 👍