It was the Butlerian Jihad's prohibition of thinking machines that gave the Spacing Guild it's monopoly on space travel. The thinking machine or computer could just as easily plot a safe course for the spacecraft as the Guild Navigator did using it's mind.
There's literally no other Sci Fi universe as complicated and all encompassing as the Dune universe! No others even come close! Frank Herbert was a true genius!
Your Dune Lore videos are so well produced. This review of the Guild is spot-on. They were able to detect a threat in Paul as a young boy and sought to eliminate him from the board. The Guild conspired to exterminate House Atreides and that had to stick with Paul as he planned their downfall. I bet Denis will have a super good representation of the Navigators in Dune 2.
Jim Kenealy He needs to because the spacing guild is a major part of the entire series & he largely bypassed them on part 1 , which I understand . They weren't integral to the plot of part 1 of his movie like Feyd Rautha & the emperor , both of whom are in part 2 . Im hoping for a little more of Thufir Hawat . I'm a fan of what Villenueve is doing but the mentats got a little shortchanged I'm part 1. I know there were scenes shot that developed the relationship between Paul & Thufir that didn't make the final cut & I really hope that a long cut of this movie gets released at some point before October of next year ,
@@michaelscott7916 I did like the costumes he had for the guildsmen, though, which kept their faces hidden - suggesting that the transformation that makes a human into a navigator was already underway.
Here’s something I haven’t seen anyone else mentioned about Guild Navigators. I’ve always believed it’s not just interstellar dangers they’re plotting courses to avoid - they also have to account for the movement of the stars and planets relative to each other. Suppose we wanted to go a particular planet around Proxima, about 4.3 light years. On earth, we see it where it was 4.3 years ago. A navigator would have to plot where it is _now_, and also the target planet they’re travelling to, to such a precise degree that they’d end up in stable orbit around that planet. Especially considering they can’t know what might have occurred since that light began its journey, to affect their travels, I’ve always thought this was one of the key functions of a Navigator. Just my two cents, feel free to argue.
Using prescience to guide their jumps directly into stable planetary orbits with 100% accuracy would definitely explain the bulk of their monopoly on space travel. Every other method would be dramatically more prone to accidents and disruptions.
The navigators don't have to account for the entire folding movement of space. The computers chart the course and the navigator predicts if they will run into something, folding in that specific direction. If so, they replot the course.
"...A nexus where countless delicate decisions are made..." Man I love how that line is delivered (and really the whole portrayal of that Guild member) in the Dune miniseries. So good.
If you accept Brian Herbert's books as a continuation of Frank's, it's interesting to note that after the Guild loses it's domination of space travel, new sources of spice arise. The arrival of Ixian compilers allow for machines to plot courses without the use of Guild Navigators, and with Spice being produced first from Tleilaxu Axlotl tanks, and then from Arrakian sandworms genetically engineered and adapted to other environments.
It's also worth noting that, as the Guild's dominance ebbs away, so does the reliance on the massive Heighliners. Each polity has their own ships for space travel, and these seem miniscule compared to the Guild ships of yore. It seems that both the Spice and the Spacing Guild shared similar fates as well as being inextricably entwined. Just as the loss of spice production on Arrakis forced humans to first find other methods of navigation through space, then to find or create other ways of making the substance, so loss of easy space travel forced them to innovate with ship design. Clearly the ixian machines were relatively quick, easy and cheap to make, and needed far less space to install and maintain than a Guild Navigator, their spice gas tank and other living requirements. As we've seen devices like mobile phones shrink over the decades, perhaps such items as mathematical compilers and no-devices underwent size reduction, too.
There is no better place for Dune lore bits. I want Part Two out so you can get to the later books. Honored Matres and how Leto 2 deals with Paul's short coming ect ect.
Yeah, Quinn Ideas and this one are the best, but Quinn's has some very VERY indepth and long videos. I love them equally though, both are great in my book. Oh, forgot about Secrets of Dune, that one is good as well.
I did know about Quinns channel (it's the first to pop up with facedancers and honored matres). But I love hearing all the takes on it, and NC just has a real respect for Dune.
@@dirkdiggler. i know of another channel that does dune lore . ( grimdarknarrator ) a European channel he mostly does warhammer lore but he has a wonderful dune playlist . Along the same lines as here . Its a small channel.
The Spacing Guild is my favorite faction. I suspect the Spacing Guild could have supplanted the Ixians as the leading developers of technology because they could have maintained a school of the brightest minds of the imperium for engineering. As today, they could have had manufacturing facilities at the most advantageous locations. In fact, how could the Ixians gained the upper hand over the Spacing Guild when the Guild controlled all interstellar travel?
1. The Spacing Guild Navigators were heavily into higher abstract mathematics for navigating and probabilities, rather than engineering. Those that were capable of the mathematics and functions/duties became physically- transformed navigators after exposure to spice while others who seemed capable but could not achieve navigator status, were caught in between human and navigator forms. Neither group would do well in communicating their ideas to underlings because they thought in the language of pure mathematics. Also, they had their "hands" full with their more important Guild interests: travel, politics, and SPICE. They did seem to keep abreast of technological advances, such as Ixian and Richese. 2. The Ixians really did not have an upper hand with the Guild. They had the technology and people (bio-engineered workers) to create the highliners for the Guild and the Guild had plenty of money to pay for them. After the fall of the Ixian ruling family and the advent of the Bene Tleilax on Ix, progress in the design of highliners was stopped for Tleilaxu religious reasons and the Guild seemed content with what they were given. (Prior to Leto II).
The difference between science and screwing around is that scientists write stuff down. Same goes for the difference between weirdo collectors and historians. Anyone with sufficient prescient ability in Dune could see the outcome of every possible scientific experiment they could perform in their own lifetime. The only reason scientific advancement would stagnate in the Dune universe is that the fremen are too busy staying alive and anyone else with enough spice to see the future is too busy playing God to write stuff down.
@@Grizabeebles the Spacing Guild Navigators are literally described as being master mathematicians. Why wouldn't they write down their researches? They would have access to sufficient mathematics to accurately describe their theories of spacetime and the nuances of the Holtzmann drive.
@@maxmercer1931 -- Institutional knowledge (aka. "common knowledge") is rarely recorded for posterity. How many people do you know who write and publish and then constantly update their own detailed personal manuals for the fine details of their job - like how to stack boxes on that one shelf that leans slightly to one side or each co-worker's personal settings preferences for their office chairs? Prescience is the ultimate kind of institutional knowledge. A prescient just knows how virtually anything will work out if certain things happen but doesn't have to understand why. In one sense, it's pointless to even try to explain. Either a person doesn't have prescience and can't understand the explanation, or they already have prescience and don't need it. And once a person has prescience, they're likely to be to busy trying to _use_ their prescience to their personal advantage to do much to advance science and technology.
As always a great video. Really, an excellent analysis of the Spacing Guild. I like to think of myself as a serious Dune nerd and yet every time you do a Dune video you bring up points I had not thought of before. Also, I really enjoy how in your videos you use imagery from many different sources. From both movies, the mini series, and other artwork. The many different sources seem to invite us to think about what you were saying from many different perspectives.
I'm not sure where you find the "lore" information you do to present these videos, as that...."lore" is in most cases publicly available. I will say this, you are not only a tremendous researcher but an extremely gifted writer. You're no neophyte video editor either. Your commentary in these videos is obviously very carefully crafted and written out before you..."read it" to the beautiful images you provide to accompany your very well researched oratory. Your analysis is always so concise; containing only what it needs while dispensing with the unnecessary, and is always a master class in how to explain complex information from A to Z with perfect clarity and no fluff. What a mind you have. When it comes to research, analysis of existing source material, calculating the probable possibilities for the how and why things played out the way they did in the original IP's...you're the best of the best on the...."Interwebs." No one does what you do in this regard better than you do. Your channel and work is extremely commendable / laudable and endlessly enjoyable. I've "binged" on your videos for hours on end. You're the best of the best in this genre of content. My only shock is how few subscribers you have compared to how many you should. Given the quality of your work...you should have 100 times as many. I'm subscribed and look forward to every notification that I am, again, in for another "master class" in the deep lore of IP's that I love.
I love your videos! One problem I had with the Dune franchise was that spice only came from Arrakis. It seemed like a lazy mechanism for Frank to make it so very rare. Hubert later worked on this with certain developments in later books, but I won't spoil anything for anyone. I just always found it strange it could only came from one place. As for the Guild, I was a little disappointed that when, in the new movie, it just says year 10191 like the others. No AG but also no "(After Guild)" to help people who've never seen or heard a thing about dune know it's a very different time. Even putting year 19,000+ ad under the guild date to give people that reference. I realize the presentation wouldn't have been as clean but even having Leto talk to Paul about being descended from roman royalty 19,000 years back on "Old Terra" would have sufficed as well. The guild navigators were interesting although I found it strange when Thufir says how much it cost to travel there from Kaitain he mentions the use of "Three Guild navigators and a total of 1,460,062 (he may have said 1.46&62) solaris for the round trip." but you can clearly count six navigators. Are they the lower class navigators and the three they used we never saw because they stayed onboard the ship in the spice tank???, Not a big question but it would be nice to know more for sure. Just a thought.
I've never heard Dune being described so simply and effectively. Don't misunderstand me, I think the other Noble houses were also a problem and House Atrades was one of the much better examples. Clearly the Baron of House Harkenon was the chief antagonist. The spacing guild and their navigators weren't what I would call evil; they were just kinda out for themselves, and if keeping the empire stable was going to benefit them, then yes, they would quietly and subtly do what they thought was best in the greater good, especially for themselves, but wouldn't most people do that as well?
I absolutely love this video. It helps bring information to peopel who have not read the books in an enjoyable and easily acessible manner. I do have one question. You mentioned NO-Ships in this as the thing that broke the spacing guilds monopoly. Wasn't this the Ixian navatation computers that did this and the no ships were just spaceships developed using no-chamber technology so that they couldn't be tracked? Thanks again for all that you do. I absolutely LOVE this channel!
Thank you for the support! Yes you are correct that the individual components as found in the no-ship were what was responsible for breaking the monopoly. The no-ships became fairly commonplace after the scattering so many people point to the ships themselves as the representation of the Spacing Guild's fall from power and the machine restrictions being eased.
I've been a fan of Dune since a child, I was introduced to the universe thanks to the game Dune 2000. I would LOVE a book that further expanded on and showed the points of view of the other major houses during the 6 book timeline. I.E the house Ordos
Space is VAST and EMPTY though. The odds of you picking a direction, going in it a few light years, and hitting something is SO VERY LOW I don't understand why it's such a problem that you need navigators o.o
Hello, Great Video, I love the mistery and power of the Guilt. I Think that their demise is líke of the Kodak company they Just rely on doing better film technology, however they were replace with digital phonography. The Guilt Navigators were replaced with the Ixian Navigation Machines that do not require Melange at all. Allowing each House to perform free from Guilt control. Best Regards
They are similar to an organization such as OPEC, that has had an oversized influence on the distribution, production and commerce of a universal commodity. I think perhaps OPEC has been reduced in recent years by moves away from fossil fuels, but I have no doubt they're there doing their thing more quietly. The Spacing Guild was twice as bad, which may have helped them fall so completely as compared to someone like OPEC, even though it took a while.
Chaos/innovation meant someone would make thinking machines smarter than humans once again. Those thinking machines would then wipe out and replace humanity. Similarly someone would make better bombs, perhaps able to destroy stars, wars could wipe out everyone. Or someone would make better bio weapons that could wipe out humanity. Golden path, humanity spreads out, then "honored mate" faction comes running back in afraid of something even scarier out there. While too much order may be a threat, too much chaos also was.
Hi Elaine, great video as always and here's a good 'ole tickle for the algorithm. 👍✨🔥💥 It's ironic that when Frank started writing these books, it was LSD and other drugs were in the spotlight but he said in an interview that his spice is analogous to OPEC and the oil business of today. Looking forward to your next video and Happy Easter! 🐇
I would like to see more behind the scenes stories involving the Guild. Currently reading Great Schools trilogy. And I would like to have more details about how the Guild established their power in the Imperium. Especially in the early days of the Empire.
It's interesting how their purpose was reinvented by the prequel and sequel books released by Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert. I'd like to see you explore this further.
Leto II is one of the most intriguing characters that I have ever come across. I really hope Denis Villeneuve gets to explore the entire saga so Disney can buy it and destroy the prequels.
I think the Spacing Guild reflects the financialization and globalization of our world economy. Perhaps Frank Herbert was able to glimpse outcomes of events he observed in his lifetime, the outlines of which comprise the cycles of destruction and rebuilding our species inflicts on itself.
Another great video. Both Paul and his son broke the monopoly of the spacing guild. Like a blocked up damn they open the floodgates. Letting humanity expand and move forward. We need this kind of radical change today in order to break the monopoly a small group of powerful people have over the worlds economy. And just like a damn bursting there will be chaos before the water settles.
The Spacing Guild seems like a good metaphor for the fossil fuel industry in our present era. A small cabal of very powerful corporations controls the production and distribution of a substance that is woven through every aspect of our life and is absolutely essential to the way we travel. And like the Spacing Guild, the fossil fuel industry does everything in their power to preserve the status quo, even when that status quo is causing a massive climate crisis.
Naa the spacing guilds monopoly makes the fossil fuel industry look like armatures. Imagine if a single organisation controlled every single trade ship, rail line and long distance truck route in todays world. You can not do anything without their approval. Hell you could not even attack them or anyone else without their approval. Because they are the only way of moving things around. Forget the emperor what is he going to do? Make is armys make angry noises from the planets they are stuck on? No the spacing guild would have ultimate power over everything. If anything they are severely nerfed to make the story make sense.
I mentioned the same thing to my buddy, who is a huge fan of the Dune books. I mentioned to him how the spice production is a metaphor of the fossil fuels industry. I also mentioned that the fremen are the Middle Eastern people fighting back against military aggression because they’re being exploited of their resources. My buddy replied with”That’s the story of Dune”.
The Guild is a great warning on basing a civilization on one resource exclusively. This is what we are starting to see happen now. OPEC are the Guild in real life.
The guild was the most powerfull faction in the empire. Nothing serious could be done without their complicity. Paul really should not have been able to coerce the guild to do his bidding. The guild had just received a massive payment of spice from the Harkonen’s for transporting their army to Arrakis. According to the book this was 80 years of spice production. Paul had a monopoly on spice production after defeating the Harkonen’s but the guild had enough in reserve ro last at least a century. It doesn’t make sense that they should immediatelly give up.
Love the information but I felt a mention to Norma Cenva could have been added. I know most of her story is in the Expanded universe but that aspect, along with the Erasmus story line, were the the great contributions to the original story. Maybe you can make a Norma Cenva video in the future 😀.
One storyline I would have like to have seen covered would have been the fate of the ships lost before the rise of the navigators. Did some survive and become an early scattering?
Good question. I just ordered the first book, so I’m preparing to read the saga and learn more insight. If i had to guess now, I’d say harvesting spice was probably seen as too “blue collar” for the noble House of Corrino. Much like the Capitol in The Hunger Games, The Emperor and his house probably sat in the lap of luxury while the other houses toiled and worked. In a way, the Emperor indirectly controlled the spice by controlling whichever house was tasked with mining Arrakis. Of course, he allowed the Harkonnens to amass great wealth by giving them stewardship over Arrakis for all those years, but then they squandered a huge amount of those ill-gotten gains by attacking House Atreides. Not far fetched to assume that was the Emperor’s plan all along. After Paul and Jessica escaped into the desert, House Atreides was shattered and the Harkonnens were almost thrust into poverty. Not a bad way for House Corrino to maintain some superiority over these once powerful houses.
You're curious to know what I think? I think you videos are great, especially that you stick to canon and not garbage about Timo Holzmann, Norma Senza and the rest of Brian's Baby Dune.
The conclusion at the end of the Dune series implying that the Spacing Guild went extinct because they were stagnant didn't make much sense to me. They used spice to evolve, gain super powers and greatly extended life. Even if they lost their monopoly on space travel, they would still be greatly valued and the spice would still be a commodity.
The Guild may have been inspired by Robert Heinlein's early 1950s novel "Starman Jones", in which Max, the hero, is a teenager with intuitive mathematical ability. He has learnt astrogation from books left to him by his deceased uncle, but as the said uncle had died before he could recommend Max as a Guild (union) member, Max must work his way up through the crew of the commercial starship Asgard. A series of errors and disasters resulting in the deaths of all the ship's qualified astrogators leaves Max as the only crew member able to do the job. Eventually, once he has successfully navigated Asgard back to known space, he is admitted to the Guild as a student. Ships in this novel can disappear or be destroyed, just like a Heighliner, if they do not hit transition points, similar to wormholes, at precisely the right velocity and direction.
The obvious parallels between Frank Herbert's saga & our own current situation; both struggling with powerful parasitic forces bent on clinging to a stagnant status quo, are profoundly significant and concerning.
I don't think it's ever discussed in the material, and pure conjecture isn't that entertaining, but I have often wondered who built the Guild heighliners and how. As absolutely enormous as they are, in a society with no computers to assist them, that seems mind-boggling.
Great stuff. Let me ask, why not just say Faster than Light rather than FTL? It only costs the speaker the tiniest of syllables more and conveys the entire meaning to someone who maybe isn’t entirely immersed in all the engineering shorthand.
The analogy of the Spacing guild to "modern" day scenarios could be all the countries that rely on one supplier for goods and supply chains should diversify while they can. Cough, cough, China CCP, cough, cough. It is amazing that the author predicted this so many years ago.
Spice is a direct analog to fossil fuels. It had nothing to do with China because China was not the big player on the world stage it is now when the book was written in 1965. He's not demonizing any one nation, but humanity's over reliance on a scarce and limited resource that we've built our entire economy on the back of. If the spice stops flowing, so does interstellar travel, reverting humanity back to being planet bound. If the oil stops flowing, so does the entire world economy. Putting ALL our eggs in one basket in the issue, not who's holding the basket
Another fantastic dune video from the dune girl.... but this not answer the most inportant thing... why their ships are Balls designed by Steve Jobs? PD in the line of this it would be awesome more technological analysis vids like the one of the ornithopter, viper mk II, but about the atreides/harkonen harvesters,carryalls weapons like the maula pistol or lasers, suspensors...
Who are the guys in the giant space helmets and so on? Are these individuals supposed to be some kind of priest, high ranking guild officer or technicians or something similar? Was curious. Because Dune is so weird, complex and wonderful which can befuddled the thought processes at times. Thanks for sharing as always. Have a very safe and Happy Bunny day ( Easter) Have a very Geeked- out Day.😁🖖🤓👽🛸🚀
It's interesting, because at the moment the camera pans to them, Thufir Hawat (or maybe it was the Arbiter) says "...Guild Navigators," and they certainly look like they are wearing suits for the administration of melange, but then Villeneuve has said that those persons are NOT navigators (?) So I'm confused on the subject as well.
@@jonathanleblanc2140 I am figuring that those extra characters are just used as filler characters to make the Spacing Guild look important and impressive. Some of the other helmeted "extra" characters look like some kind of space pilots or something. But they also look like extra band members of Def Punk, even though Def Punk were only comprised of two dudes in robot costumes. That's just my take on it.
@@michaelhearson I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that the Daft Punk people were the representatives from the Imperial Court (they had sashes). But yeah, maybe they were lower-ranking Guild members. I hope we see more of the Guild in Part Two, because in a way, they were Paul's main obstacle, because they were an obstacle to his prescience and the immediate reason he drank the Water of Life. Of course, Paul had many enemies, but the Guild had signed his death warrant just as early as the Baron did.
@@jonathanleblanc2140 Can you answer this for me. I know the whole narrative that Human authorities had out lawed AI systems due to the Machine War centuries before which led humanity to innovate new ways to survive. But my question is, in your opinion, did these advance humans have some type of computer systems, obvious with no AI, to control, operate, guide and pilot smaller craft, shuttles, space transports, planet based vehicles and other related craft??
@@michaelhearson To my knowledge, it isn’t really clear from the books, but that might be a reasonable guess. Ix, Richese, and the Bene Tleilax used technology that other humans eschewed, so maybe there was navigation tech before the Guild and the spice, but it seems like it was all abandoned if it did exist.
Maybe a common question easily answered, but if spice is only found on one single planet, made by one single life form, why did humans pick it to sustain humanity upon? In the vastness of space, how’d they even find it?
I have to correct the video on one thing: No-Ships. It was not the development of no-ships that broke the Guild Monopoly. Rather, it was the development (also by the Ixians) of navigational machines that did not need a steersman. No-ships had a completely different reason for existing.
I believe you're specifically thinking of no-chamber technology itself. The no-ship did possess the navigational machines you are speaking of, which effectively broke the monopoly.
@@NerdCookies Yes, but the navigation tech wasn't restricted to no-ships. Regular Heighliners and other ships could use it. No-chamber tech and navigation tech were two separate things, though they could be used together.
For some reason TH-cam is only showing part of your reply and I can't reply to it. Yes, I would agree that No-ships were undoubtedly the ship du jour of the scattering - after all, we're told a lot of the people who left wanted to get as far away as possible from the old Imperium. And they'd want to minimize any chance of prescients being able to follow them.
I can appreciate the value of clarification as to what specific part of the ship was so detrimental to the Guild but I still don't think its wrong to say that the proliferation of no-ships effectively broke the monopoly as they all possessed those navigational capabilities and were the most widely used vessel during and after the scattering.
@@NerdCookies Within the old imperium no-ships were less common, because they were expensive. But in the scattering, I quite agree. It's a small point.
I think the most unrealistic part of the dune universe is that every planet isn’t covered by hundreds of tiny little regions that all want independence and create “the Democratic republic of Glomborgia” or something, or the fact that a family dynasty can last for ten thousand years when in history few can hardly manage to last for longer than 200
In an empire that spans a considerable area of the galaxy, you're describing something similar to a real-world situation of one person in an apartment declaring that apartment (or house, wherever) to be an independent nation. It only works as long as you're 100% self-sufficient and can defend yourself against any and all enemies. It's unrealistic in real life, and since the planets of the Imperium became specialized to the point where many of them only produced one or two exports and had to import so much from other worlds, it wouldn't take long for this hypothetical "republic" to be literally starved into submission or else blown off the map as an example to others who might have similar ideas.
@@Shan_Dalamani let me just use one country as an example. Russia. We have Chechnya, Abazinia, Circassia, Karachay-Balkaria, Lezgistan, and Tabasaranstan. And that’s just ONE area of Russia, all of those are concentrated within the caucuses. There’s about a dozen more scattered across the country too. If Russia is having such a hard time dealing with all these uprisings all at once then why aren’t say the Harkonnens who are even more brutal and unfair to their subjects not also dealing with constant rebellions, uprisings, and separatist movements?
@@t.b.cont. Let me repeat: It's the interstellar economy. Many planets in the Imperium are so highly specialized in what they produce that they are dependent on other planets for what they need and don't have. This is a prime reason for them not to screw up and have their access to Guild Heighliners revoked. Caladan, for example, is a world that produces seafood and its main export is pundi rice. Now Caladan is one of the fortunate planets that if it lost its shipping rights, the people wouldn't starve. But they might not be able to access other things they need, so if (hypothetically) Duke Leto decided to say Screw the Emperor, I'm in charge... next thing you know, some shipment of supercritical stuff (medicines, for example) wouldn't come and Leto would not be allowed to send anyone off-planet to go get it himself. So that would be a warning. If he persisted, the planet (or area of the planet, if it wasn't Leto who was rebelling, but rather some minor noble on Caladan who decided to say Screw Leto, I'm in charge) could simply be fried from space. And it wouldn't even necessarily take guns to do it. A planet is at the bottom of a gravity well. Just round up some smaller asteroids and throw rocks at them (reference: The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, by Heinlein). Yes, I know there have been issues in Russia's various regions for centuries. But we're all on the SAME planet here. You're talking about planets, plural, and there are so many ways to prevent rebellious planets from getting too rebellious. And who knows - maybe there are rebellions on Giedi Prime. But Giedi Prime's internal politics isn't the main story Herbert wanted to tell. Part of Gurney Halleck's backstory concerns Giedi Prime, so that will have to do.
Our dependence on fossil fuels and weapons manufacture as engines of innovation. As well as the hoarding of dead capital is the equivalent to the role spice plays in Herbert's books. We will stay stuck on one fragile and increasingly poisoned rock if we continue on this path.
Naive question... why doesnt the Space guild take over arakis for themselves and cut ties spacing anymore. They could just keep getting high/alive as the rest of thr universe gets cut off
I believe the spice is used to both further the mutation of a Steersman candidate, as well as to power their prescient visions allowing them to pick the correct FTL path to follow. The quantities of spice involved are immense, far more than a Fremen would be exposed to in their life.
What would've happened if Paul Joined The Space Guild after he got to become Emperor. What would have happened? Can anyone who understands Dune answer the question?
Not sure why the spacing guild didn't just demand Arakis for their own, while sure they may not have had a standing army I'm sure they could have thrown something together and without allowing anyone else to go there they effectively own it. Also seemed that humanity really took a really wrong turn with the ultra-religious aspect of it, ok AI managed to go crazy and they had to fight back against it, but making rules that completely outlaw all machines that perform jobs that humans can do really set them back and created this whole thing. "Dumb" computers could have probably been more than sufficient enough to use as navigators for instance and then poof no more spacing monopoly. Which is exactly what the Ixians did... well sorta.
Dumb computers aren't capable of prescience. The navigators literally see the future, allowing them to exit folded space safely. No computer, advanced or dumb, is capable of seeing the future. They can make models, sure, but that's not the same as prescience. As far as the Guild not taking over Arakis, they really didn't need to. As mentioned, EVERYBODY is already giving them a cut of their spice income. They have a monopoly of spice with no need to actually handle the harvesting, sand worms etc.
I agree, they took the religious aspect to the extremes, especially Reyna Butler and her fanatical group of jihadists who were destroying everything including life-saving medical equipment because they believed all technology was evil. It's ironic that Frank Herbert treated robots and technology as evil but Isaac Asimov did the complete opposite in his Robot-Empire-Foundation series and made the robots the victims instead.
Apparently paul said in dune , that they could have done that and rulled for a few centuries but having someone else do it means millennia and allowed them to be the power behind the throne, like the sisterhood, they choose not to govern
@@shanenolan8252 yes, this was my takeaway. Why put yourself front and center as the power to topple while also having to do the work of actually gathering spice. If it's being freely given to you from multiple sources, and deep down you know that you run shit, why change?
You haven't answeared the question. If they had a monopoly on space travel, how could they lose it? How did scattering of humanity affected the monopoly? Who is navigating the gates?
Answer: Ixian no ships had navigation computers that eliminated the need for Guild Navigators. They also shielded its occupants from prescient visions.
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It was the Butlerian Jihad's prohibition of thinking machines that gave the Spacing Guild it's monopoly on space travel. The thinking machine or computer could just as easily plot a safe course for the spacecraft as the Guild Navigator did using it's mind.
I cannot explain how enchanted I am by the Dune universe. Thank you for helping us understand it further.
There's literally no other Sci Fi universe as complicated and all encompassing as the Dune universe!
No others even come close! Frank Herbert was a true genius!
I wonder if everything that happens in Dune is still within The Milky Way, or if they exist in other galaxies.
@@rong2912 still millenniums away in the future
@@rong2912arrakis is like 42 light-years from old earth.
Your Dune Lore videos are so well produced. This review of the Guild is spot-on. They were able to detect a threat in Paul as a young boy and sought to eliminate him from the board. The Guild conspired to exterminate House Atreides and that had to stick with Paul as he planned their downfall. I bet Denis will have a super good representation of the Navigators in Dune 2.
Jim Kenealy He needs to because the spacing guild is a major part of the entire series & he largely bypassed them on part 1 , which I understand . They weren't integral to the plot of part 1 of his movie like Feyd Rautha & the emperor , both of whom are in part 2 . Im hoping for a little more of Thufir Hawat . I'm a fan of what Villenueve is doing but the mentats got a little shortchanged I'm part 1. I know there were scenes shot that developed the relationship between Paul & Thufir that didn't make the final cut & I really hope that a long cut of this movie gets released at some point before October of next year ,
@@michaelscott7916 I did like the costumes he had for the guildsmen, though, which kept their faces hidden - suggesting that the transformation that makes a human into a navigator was already underway.
Womp womp...
Here’s something I haven’t seen anyone else mentioned about Guild Navigators. I’ve always believed it’s not just interstellar dangers they’re plotting courses to avoid - they also have to account for the movement of the stars and planets relative to each other. Suppose we wanted to go a particular planet around Proxima, about 4.3 light years. On earth, we see it where it was 4.3 years ago. A navigator would have to plot where it is _now_, and also the target planet they’re travelling to, to such a precise degree that they’d end up in stable orbit around that planet. Especially considering they can’t know what might have occurred since that light began its journey, to affect their travels, I’ve always thought this was one of the key functions of a Navigator.
Just my two cents, feel free to argue.
Makes sense, that's insane
They can see the future
Using prescience to guide their jumps directly into stable planetary orbits with 100% accuracy would definitely explain the bulk of their monopoly on space travel.
Every other method would be dramatically more prone to accidents and disruptions.
The Spacing Guild could also be the reason we don't see extraterrestrials. They intentionally avoid and hide the existence of planets with alien life.
The navigators don't have to account for the entire folding movement of space. The computers chart the course and the navigator predicts if they will run into something, folding in that specific direction. If so, they replot the course.
"...A nexus where countless delicate decisions are made..." Man I love how that line is delivered (and really the whole portrayal of that Guild member) in the Dune miniseries. So good.
Your videos make Dune so much more enjoyable!! Love this channel!!
Agreed. The narrator has a very pleasant voice
She has a wonderful voice its very soothing. All thought some lost souls don't like it i believe she said . ( no accounting for taste)
Are we related
Dune is just so packed dense with lore, that unless you really get into it,
If you accept Brian Herbert's books as a continuation of Frank's, it's interesting to note that after the Guild loses it's domination of space travel, new sources of spice arise. The arrival of Ixian compilers allow for machines to plot courses without the use of Guild Navigators, and with Spice being produced first from Tleilaxu Axlotl tanks, and then from Arrakian sandworms genetically engineered and adapted to other environments.
Carolyn yes the ixian navigation machines seem to be introduced at the end of good emporer and are common by heritics. No ships .
It's also worth noting that, as the Guild's dominance ebbs away, so does the reliance on the massive Heighliners. Each polity has their own ships for space travel, and these seem miniscule compared to the Guild ships of yore. It seems that both the Spice and the Spacing Guild shared similar fates as well as being inextricably entwined. Just as the loss of spice production on Arrakis forced humans to first find other methods of navigation through space, then to find or create other ways of making the substance, so loss of easy space travel forced them to innovate with ship design. Clearly the ixian machines were relatively quick, easy and cheap to make, and needed far less space to install and maintain than a Guild Navigator, their spice gas tank and other living requirements. As we've seen devices like mobile phones shrink over the decades, perhaps such items as mathematical compilers and no-devices underwent size reduction, too.
Let's not bring Brian's inferior nonsense into this.
There is no better place for Dune lore bits. I want Part Two out so you can get to the later books. Honored Matres and how Leto 2 deals with Paul's short coming ect ect.
Totally agree! Actually here is only place i know for due lore bits. Whats another channel that has some, even if second rate?
Quinn's Ideas is good too.
Yeah, Quinn Ideas and this one are the best, but Quinn's has some very VERY indepth and long videos. I love them equally though, both are great in my book.
Oh, forgot about Secrets of Dune, that one is good as well.
I did know about Quinns channel (it's the first to pop up with facedancers and honored matres). But I love hearing all the takes on it, and NC just has a real respect for Dune.
@@dirkdiggler. i know of another channel that does dune lore . ( grimdarknarrator ) a European channel he mostly does warhammer lore but he has a wonderful dune playlist . Along the same lines as here . Its a small channel.
The Spacing Guild is my favorite faction. I suspect the Spacing Guild could have supplanted the Ixians as the leading developers of technology because they could have maintained a school of the brightest minds of the imperium for engineering. As today, they could have had manufacturing facilities at the most advantageous locations. In fact, how could the Ixians gained the upper hand over the Spacing Guild when the Guild controlled all interstellar travel?
1. The Spacing Guild Navigators were heavily into higher abstract mathematics for navigating and probabilities, rather than engineering. Those that were capable of the mathematics and functions/duties became physically- transformed navigators after exposure to spice while others who seemed capable but could not achieve navigator status, were caught in between human and navigator forms. Neither group would do well in communicating their ideas to underlings because they thought in the language of pure mathematics. Also, they had their "hands" full with their more important Guild interests: travel, politics, and SPICE. They did seem to keep abreast of technological advances, such as Ixian and Richese.
2. The Ixians really did not have an upper hand with the Guild. They had the technology and people (bio-engineered workers) to create the highliners for the Guild and the Guild had plenty of money to pay for them. After the fall of the Ixian ruling family and the advent of the Bene Tleilax on Ix, progress in the design of highliners was stopped for Tleilaxu religious reasons and the Guild seemed content with what they were given. (Prior to Leto II).
Well it seems like the ixians were a major manufacturer of spacing guild ships
The difference between science and screwing around is that scientists write stuff down. Same goes for the difference between weirdo collectors and historians.
Anyone with sufficient prescient ability in Dune could see the outcome of every possible scientific experiment they could perform in their own lifetime.
The only reason scientific advancement would stagnate in the Dune universe is that the fremen are too busy staying alive and anyone else with enough spice to see the future is too busy playing God to write stuff down.
@@Grizabeebles the Spacing Guild Navigators are literally described as being master mathematicians. Why wouldn't they write down their researches? They would have access to sufficient mathematics to accurately describe their theories of spacetime and the nuances of the Holtzmann drive.
@@maxmercer1931 -- Institutional knowledge (aka. "common knowledge") is rarely recorded for posterity. How many people do you know who write and publish and then constantly update their own detailed personal manuals for the fine details of their job - like how to stack boxes on that one shelf that leans slightly to one side or each co-worker's personal settings preferences for their office chairs?
Prescience is the ultimate kind of institutional knowledge. A prescient just knows how virtually anything will work out if certain things happen but doesn't have to understand why.
In one sense, it's pointless to even try to explain. Either a person doesn't have prescience and can't understand the explanation, or they already have prescience and don't need it.
And once a person has prescience, they're likely to be to busy trying to _use_ their prescience to their personal advantage to do much to advance science and technology.
As always a great video. Really, an excellent analysis of the Spacing Guild. I like to think of myself as a serious Dune nerd and yet every time you do a Dune video you bring up points I had not thought of before.
Also, I really enjoy how in your videos you use imagery from many different sources. From both movies, the mini series, and other artwork. The many different sources seem to invite us to think about what you were saying from many different perspectives.
I'm not sure where you find the "lore" information you do to present these videos, as that...."lore" is in most cases publicly available. I will say this, you are not only a tremendous researcher but an extremely gifted writer. You're no neophyte video editor either. Your commentary in these videos is obviously very carefully crafted and written out before you..."read it" to the beautiful images you provide to accompany your very well researched oratory. Your analysis is always so concise; containing only what it needs while dispensing with the unnecessary, and is always a master class in how to explain complex information from A to Z with perfect clarity and no fluff. What a mind you have. When it comes to research, analysis of existing source material, calculating the probable possibilities for the how and why things played out the way they did in the original IP's...you're the best of the best on the...."Interwebs." No one does what you do in this regard better than you do. Your channel and work is extremely commendable / laudable and endlessly enjoyable. I've "binged" on your videos for hours on end. You're the best of the best in this genre of content. My only shock is how few subscribers you have compared to how many you should. Given the quality of your work...you should have 100 times as many. I'm subscribed and look forward to every notification that I am, again, in for another "master class" in the deep lore of IP's that I love.
What a beautifully put, thoughtful and kind comment. Thank you so much. ❤
Sometimes I wish the videos can be longer I'm listening to these to pass the time at work. But just keep doing what you are doing, this is great
Yet another great vid! I rely on your content to make sense of the series more than I want to admit lol
Your Dune videos are always fascinating to watch. Keep up the great work Elaine!
of all the origins they tried to do in the Brian Herbert books this arc was one of my favorites. That little lady knew some stuff.
My new favourite channel. Had some nerdy conversations over many an ale with friends about dune and lore. Thank you
You hit the nail on the head with this video. Your video makes it a lot easier to explain the mythology of the Dune series to non-nerds.
Thanks for the great video Nerd Cookies. The Dune series is one of the best, if not the best, sci-fy books I have ever read, a gem that one.
Hey Cookie!!!
Just to say how much I enjoy your videos...specially those of Dune!!!
I love you Cookie!!!
I love your videos! One problem I had with the Dune franchise was that spice only came from Arrakis. It seemed like a lazy mechanism for Frank to make it so very rare. Hubert later worked on this with certain developments in later books, but I won't spoil anything for anyone. I just always found it strange it could only came from one place. As for the Guild, I was a little disappointed that when, in the new movie, it just says year 10191 like the others. No AG but also no "(After Guild)" to help people who've never seen or heard a thing about dune know it's a very different time. Even putting year 19,000+ ad under the guild date to give people that reference. I realize the presentation wouldn't have been as clean but even having Leto talk to Paul about being descended from roman royalty 19,000 years back on "Old Terra" would have sufficed as well. The guild navigators were interesting although I found it strange when Thufir says how much it cost to travel there from Kaitain he mentions the use of "Three Guild navigators and a total of 1,460,062 (he may have said 1.46&62) solaris for the round trip." but you can clearly count six navigators. Are they the lower class navigators and the three they used we never saw because they stayed onboard the ship in the spice tank???, Not a big question but it would be nice to know more for sure. Just a thought.
The best dune focused channel
I've never heard Dune being described so simply and effectively. Don't misunderstand me, I think the other Noble houses were also a problem and House Atrades was one of the much better examples. Clearly the Baron of House Harkenon was the chief antagonist. The spacing guild and their navigators weren't what I would call evil; they were just kinda out for themselves, and if keeping the empire stable was going to benefit them, then yes, they would quietly and subtly do what they thought was best in the greater good, especially for themselves, but wouldn't most people do that as well?
your channel is awesome! it really expands the Dune experience
Brilliant video as always. This channel is always great and it's cool to see how close you are to 100k subscribers.
Remedy this situation, restore spice production, or you'll live out your life in a pain amplifier.
I absolutely love this video. It helps bring information to peopel who have not read the books in an enjoyable and easily acessible manner. I do have one question. You mentioned NO-Ships in this as the thing that broke the spacing guilds monopoly. Wasn't this the Ixian navatation computers that did this and the no ships were just spaceships developed using no-chamber technology so that they couldn't be tracked?
Thanks again for all that you do. I absolutely LOVE this channel!
Thank you for the support! Yes you are correct that the individual components as found in the no-ship were what was responsible for breaking the monopoly. The no-ships became fairly commonplace after the scattering so many people point to the ships themselves as the representation of the Spacing Guild's fall from power and the machine restrictions being eased.
I've been a fan of Dune since a child, I was introduced to the universe thanks to the game Dune 2000.
I would LOVE a book that further expanded on and showed the points of view of the other major houses during the 6 book timeline. I.E the house Ordos
Space is VAST and EMPTY though. The odds of you picking a direction, going in it a few light years, and hitting something is SO VERY LOW I don't understand why it's such a problem that you need navigators o.o
Yay, more Nerd Cookies Dune content!
I've recommended this channel to like 3 of my family members. You have the best deep dives for Dune. ✌🏾🤙🏾
Just came across your channel and I’m on a binge! lol Thank you!
Hello, Great Video, I love the mistery and power of the Guilt. I Think that their demise is líke of the Kodak company they Just rely on doing better film technology, however they were replace with digital phonography. The Guilt Navigators were replaced with the Ixian Navigation Machines that do not require Melange at all. Allowing each House to perform free from Guilt control. Best Regards
They are similar to an organization such as OPEC, that has had an oversized influence on the distribution, production and commerce of a universal commodity. I think perhaps OPEC has been reduced in recent years by moves away from fossil fuels, but I have no doubt they're there doing their thing more quietly. The Spacing Guild was twice as bad, which may have helped them fall so completely as compared to someone like OPEC, even though it took a while.
There is a metaphor for OPEC in the Dune, it's called CHOAM, but it only appears in books
Chaos/innovation meant someone would make thinking machines smarter than humans once again. Those thinking machines would then wipe out and replace humanity.
Similarly someone would make better bombs, perhaps able to destroy stars, wars could wipe out everyone. Or someone would make better bio weapons that could wipe out humanity.
Golden path, humanity spreads out, then "honored mate" faction comes running back in afraid of something even scarier out there. While too much order may be a threat, too much chaos also was.
Hi Elaine, great video as always and here's a good 'ole tickle for the algorithm. 👍✨🔥💥
It's ironic that when Frank started writing these books, it was LSD and other drugs were in the spotlight but he said in an interview that his spice is analogous to OPEC and the oil business of today.
Looking forward to your next video and Happy Easter! 🐇
I love your Dune content! Reading the books right now but don't mind the spoilers!
You've given me so much context. Think I may read the books. Thanks!
I would like to see more behind the scenes stories involving the Guild. Currently reading Great Schools trilogy. And I would like to have more details about how the Guild established their power in the Imperium. Especially in the early days of the Empire.
Love your content it's a very high quality tier . Dune stuff is my favourite as I'm a fan you teach me a lot
Thanks so much for sharing, I'm reading the books for the 2nd time and your video's help alot to digest them with a new understanding.
It's interesting how their purpose was reinvented by the prequel and sequel books released by Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert. I'd like to see you explore this further.
Really like the artwork you include in your presentation... 👏
The mystery of the spacing guild and its exotic mutant navigators is the best part of Dune.
Leto II is one of the most intriguing characters that I have ever come across. I really hope Denis Villeneuve gets to explore the entire saga so Disney can buy it and destroy the prequels.
I think the Spacing Guild reflects the financialization and globalization of our world economy. Perhaps Frank Herbert was able to glimpse outcomes of events he observed in his lifetime, the outlines of which comprise the cycles of destruction and rebuilding our species inflicts on itself.
Another great video. Both Paul and his son broke the monopoly of the spacing guild. Like a blocked up damn they open the floodgates. Letting humanity expand and move forward. We need this kind of radical change today in order to break the monopoly a small group of powerful people have over the worlds economy. And just like a damn bursting there will be chaos before the water settles.
United DJ’s Orlando Kimble Collins has the coolest version of “spice” from the 1990’s.
This was brilliant, prompted thinking across the board.
The Spacing Guild seems like a good metaphor for the fossil fuel industry in our present era. A small cabal of very powerful corporations controls the production and distribution of a substance that is woven through every aspect of our life and is absolutely essential to the way we travel. And like the Spacing Guild, the fossil fuel industry does everything in their power to preserve the status quo, even when that status quo is causing a massive climate crisis.
Naa the spacing guilds monopoly makes the fossil fuel industry look like armatures. Imagine if a single organisation controlled every single trade ship, rail line and long distance truck route in todays world. You can not do anything without their approval. Hell you could not even attack them or anyone else without their approval. Because they are the only way of moving things around. Forget the emperor what is he going to do? Make is armys make angry noises from the planets they are stuck on? No the spacing guild would have ultimate power over everything. If anything they are severely nerfed to make the story make sense.
I mentioned the same thing to my buddy, who is a huge fan of the Dune books. I mentioned to him how the spice production is a metaphor of the fossil fuels industry. I also mentioned that the fremen are the Middle Eastern people fighting back against military aggression because they’re being exploited of their resources. My buddy replied with”That’s the story of Dune”.
i'm truly ashamed of having never heard of Dune prior to Villeneuve's adaptation. It's a crime.
Some people complained, but I personally love the look of the new heighliners.
The quild banking system, and its role in colonisation is a major factor as well and it stake in choam as silent partners with the bene gessurite
i know i havent told you this in a while....but you rock pooky.
The Guild is a great warning on basing a civilization on one resource exclusively. This is what we are starting to see happen now. OPEC are the Guild in real life.
I love this channel.
The Guild too the safe course. Not sure if a company could take the choice other than the safe one when they are a monopoly
The guild was the most powerfull faction in the empire. Nothing serious could be done without their complicity.
Paul really should not have been able to coerce the guild to do his bidding. The guild had just received a massive payment of spice from the Harkonen’s for transporting their army to Arrakis. According to the book this was 80 years of spice production. Paul had a monopoly on spice production after defeating the Harkonen’s but the guild had enough in reserve ro last at least a century. It doesn’t make sense that they should immediatelly give up.
Love the information but I felt a mention to Norma Cenva could have been added. I know most of her story is in the Expanded universe but that aspect, along with the Erasmus story line, were the the great contributions to the original story. Maybe you can make a Norma Cenva video in the future 😀.
One storyline I would have like to have seen covered would have been the fate of the ships lost before the rise of the navigators. Did some survive and become an early scattering?
I never understood why the Emperor simply didn't take Arrakis for his own. Control of spice is control or the known universe.
Good question. I just ordered the first book, so I’m preparing to read the saga and learn more insight. If i had to guess now, I’d say harvesting spice was probably seen as too “blue collar” for the noble House of Corrino. Much like the Capitol in The Hunger Games, The Emperor and his house probably sat in the lap of luxury while the other houses toiled and worked. In a way, the Emperor indirectly controlled the spice by controlling whichever house was tasked with mining Arrakis.
Of course, he allowed the Harkonnens to amass great wealth by giving them stewardship over Arrakis for all those years, but then they squandered a huge amount of those ill-gotten gains by attacking House Atreides. Not far fetched to assume that was the Emperor’s plan all along. After Paul and Jessica escaped into the desert, House Atreides was shattered and the Harkonnens were almost thrust into poverty. Not a bad way for House Corrino to maintain some superiority over these once powerful houses.
The Narrator's voice is very pleasant and easy on the ears. She should be doing Audiobooks.
I agree
You're curious to know what I think?
I think you videos are great, especially that you stick to canon and not garbage about Timo Holzmann, Norma Senza and the rest of Brian's Baby Dune.
Brilliant content. More please
The conclusion at the end of the Dune series implying that the Spacing Guild went extinct because they were stagnant didn't make much sense to me. They used spice to evolve, gain super powers and greatly extended life. Even if they lost their monopoly on space travel, they would still be greatly valued and the spice would still be a commodity.
I clicked so quick, best Dune content creator.
The Guild may have been inspired by Robert Heinlein's early 1950s novel "Starman Jones", in which Max, the hero, is a teenager with intuitive mathematical ability. He has learnt astrogation from books left to him by his deceased uncle, but as the said uncle had died before he could recommend Max as a Guild (union) member, Max must work his way up through the crew of the commercial starship Asgard. A series of errors and disasters resulting in the deaths of all the ship's qualified astrogators leaves Max as the only crew member able to do the job. Eventually, once he has successfully navigated Asgard back to known space, he is admitted to the Guild as a student. Ships in this novel can disappear or be destroyed, just like a Heighliner, if they do not hit transition points, similar to wormholes, at precisely the right velocity and direction.
The obvious parallels between Frank Herbert's saga & our own current situation; both struggling with powerful parasitic forces bent on clinging to a stagnant status quo, are profoundly significant and concerning.
Never trust a worm that lives in a bubble of orange cheeto dust
I don't think it's ever discussed in the material, and pure conjecture isn't that entertaining, but I have often wondered who built the Guild heighliners and how. As absolutely enormous as they are, in a society with no computers to assist them, that seems mind-boggling.
Great stuff. Let me ask, why not just say Faster than Light rather than FTL? It only costs the speaker the tiniest of syllables more and conveys the entire meaning to someone who maybe isn’t entirely immersed in all the engineering shorthand.
The analogy of the Spacing guild to "modern" day scenarios could be all the countries that rely on one supplier for goods and supply chains should diversify while they can. Cough, cough, China CCP, cough, cough. It is amazing that the author predicted this so many years ago.
Spice is a direct analog to fossil fuels. It had nothing to do with China because China was not the big player on the world stage it is now when the book was written in 1965. He's not demonizing any one nation, but humanity's over reliance on a scarce and limited resource that we've built our entire economy on the back of. If the spice stops flowing, so does interstellar travel, reverting humanity back to being planet bound. If the oil stops flowing, so does the entire world economy. Putting ALL our eggs in one basket in the issue, not who's holding the basket
Another fantastic dune video from the dune girl.... but this not answer the most inportant thing... why their ships are Balls designed by Steve Jobs?
PD in the line of this it would be awesome more technological analysis vids like the one of the ornithopter, viper mk II, but about the atreides/harkonen harvesters,carryalls weapons like the maula pistol or lasers, suspensors...
Ixians built machines to navigate,
No ships were untrackable, even by the prescient.
Who are the guys in the giant space helmets and so on? Are these individuals supposed to be some kind of priest, high ranking guild officer or technicians or something similar? Was curious. Because Dune is so weird, complex and wonderful which can befuddled the thought processes at times. Thanks for sharing as always. Have a very safe and Happy Bunny day ( Easter) Have a very Geeked- out Day.😁🖖🤓👽🛸🚀
It's interesting, because at the moment the camera pans to them, Thufir Hawat (or maybe it was the Arbiter) says "...Guild Navigators," and they certainly look like they are wearing suits for the administration of melange, but then Villeneuve has said that those persons are NOT navigators (?) So I'm confused on the subject as well.
@@jonathanleblanc2140 I am figuring that those extra characters are just used as filler characters to make the Spacing Guild look important and impressive. Some of the other helmeted "extra" characters look like some kind of space pilots or something. But they also look like extra band members of Def Punk, even though Def Punk were only comprised of two dudes in robot costumes. That's just my take on it.
@@michaelhearson I was under the impression (possibly mistaken) that the Daft Punk people were the representatives from the Imperial Court (they had sashes). But yeah, maybe they were lower-ranking Guild members. I hope we see more of the Guild in Part Two, because in a way, they were Paul's main obstacle, because they were an obstacle to his prescience and the immediate reason he drank the Water of Life. Of course, Paul had many enemies, but the Guild had signed his death warrant just as early as the Baron did.
@@jonathanleblanc2140 Can you answer this for me. I know the whole narrative that Human authorities had out lawed AI systems due to the Machine War centuries before which led humanity to innovate new ways to survive. But my question is, in your opinion, did these advance humans have some type of computer systems, obvious with no AI,
to control, operate, guide and pilot smaller craft, shuttles, space transports, planet based vehicles and other related craft??
@@michaelhearson To my knowledge, it isn’t really clear from the books, but that might be a reasonable guess. Ix, Richese, and the Bene Tleilax used technology that other humans eschewed, so maybe there was navigation tech before the Guild and the spice, but it seems like it was all abandoned if it did exist.
Imagine banning AI but making lovecraftian creatures high on spice as bio-computer for space navigation.
Maybe a common question easily answered, but if spice is only found on one single planet, made by one single life form, why did humans pick it to sustain humanity upon? In the vastness of space, how’d they even find it?
Good vid. Regards from Malaysian utuber
I have to correct the video on one thing: No-Ships. It was not the development of no-ships that broke the Guild Monopoly. Rather, it was the development (also by the Ixians) of navigational machines that did not need a steersman. No-ships had a completely different reason for existing.
I believe you're specifically thinking of no-chamber technology itself. The no-ship did possess the navigational machines you are speaking of, which effectively broke the monopoly.
@@NerdCookies Yes, but the navigation tech wasn't restricted to no-ships. Regular Heighliners and other ships could use it. No-chamber tech and navigation tech were two separate things, though they could be used together.
For some reason TH-cam is only showing part of your reply and I can't reply to it. Yes, I would agree that No-ships were undoubtedly the ship du jour of the scattering - after all, we're told a lot of the people who left wanted to get as far away as possible from the old Imperium. And they'd want to minimize any chance of prescients being able to follow them.
I can appreciate the value of clarification as to what specific part of the ship was so detrimental to the Guild but I still don't think its wrong to say that the proliferation of no-ships effectively broke the monopoly as they all possessed those navigational capabilities and were the most widely used vessel during and after the scattering.
@@NerdCookies Within the old imperium no-ships were less common, because they were expensive. But in the scattering, I quite agree. It's a small point.
I think the most unrealistic part of the dune universe is that every planet isn’t covered by hundreds of tiny little regions that all want independence and create “the Democratic republic of Glomborgia” or something, or the fact that a family dynasty can last for ten thousand years when in history few can hardly manage to last for longer than 200
In an empire that spans a considerable area of the galaxy, you're describing something similar to a real-world situation of one person in an apartment declaring that apartment (or house, wherever) to be an independent nation. It only works as long as you're 100% self-sufficient and can defend yourself against any and all enemies.
It's unrealistic in real life, and since the planets of the Imperium became specialized to the point where many of them only produced one or two exports and had to import so much from other worlds, it wouldn't take long for this hypothetical "republic" to be literally starved into submission or else blown off the map as an example to others who might have similar ideas.
@@Shan_Dalamani let me just use one country as an example. Russia. We have Chechnya, Abazinia, Circassia, Karachay-Balkaria, Lezgistan, and Tabasaranstan.
And that’s just ONE area of Russia, all of those are concentrated within the caucuses. There’s about a dozen more scattered across the country too. If Russia is having such a hard time dealing with all these uprisings all at once then why aren’t say the Harkonnens who are even more brutal and unfair to their subjects not also dealing with constant rebellions, uprisings, and separatist movements?
@@t.b.cont. Let me repeat: It's the interstellar economy. Many planets in the Imperium are so highly specialized in what they produce that they are dependent on other planets for what they need and don't have. This is a prime reason for them not to screw up and have their access to Guild Heighliners revoked.
Caladan, for example, is a world that produces seafood and its main export is pundi rice. Now Caladan is one of the fortunate planets that if it lost its shipping rights, the people wouldn't starve. But they might not be able to access other things they need, so if (hypothetically) Duke Leto decided to say Screw the Emperor, I'm in charge... next thing you know, some shipment of supercritical stuff (medicines, for example) wouldn't come and Leto would not be allowed to send anyone off-planet to go get it himself.
So that would be a warning. If he persisted, the planet (or area of the planet, if it wasn't Leto who was rebelling, but rather some minor noble on Caladan who decided to say Screw Leto, I'm in charge) could simply be fried from space. And it wouldn't even necessarily take guns to do it. A planet is at the bottom of a gravity well. Just round up some smaller asteroids and throw rocks at them (reference: The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, by Heinlein).
Yes, I know there have been issues in Russia's various regions for centuries. But we're all on the SAME planet here. You're talking about planets, plural, and there are so many ways to prevent rebellious planets from getting too rebellious.
And who knows - maybe there are rebellions on Giedi Prime. But Giedi Prime's internal politics isn't the main story Herbert wanted to tell. Part of Gurney Halleck's backstory concerns Giedi Prime, so that will have to do.
Curious on how the Guild didn’t “encourage” the padashah emperors to pressure the Ixiians to cease artificial navigation. I
good job
love your voice!
Our dependence on fossil fuels and weapons manufacture as engines of innovation. As well as the hoarding of dead capital is the equivalent to the role spice plays in Herbert's books. We will stay stuck on one fragile and increasingly poisoned rock if we continue on this path.
Wow- everything here is happening today
They reminds me of today's petro companies, rallying and abiding against green energies and atomic energies
Lol. No. Well be using petroleum products for a long time
The biggest financial supporters of the green energy movement are the oil and gas industry. It’s way more corrupt than you think
I think you need to look up the definition of "abiding", then rethink your whole comment.
Naive question... why doesnt the Space guild take over arakis for themselves and cut ties spacing anymore. They could just keep getting high/alive as the rest of thr universe gets cut off
Thanks elaine
Love your content, and your voice. Please use a “de-esser”.
The Spacing Guild is like Apple Computer
Why do people turn into guild navigators, but the fremen who are saturated with spice do not?
I believe the spice is used to both further the mutation of a Steersman candidate, as well as to power their prescient visions allowing them to pick the correct FTL path to follow. The quantities of spice involved are immense, far more than a Fremen would be exposed to in their life.
It's a shame the new movies chose to pretend the spacing guild doesn't exist. It's probably the most interesting aspect of the lore.
Why didn't the spacing Guild control the spice? They should have just set up mining operations of their own.
why to even become navigator? what it gives compared to what your whole life become ?
Little humbling to realise that the fantastic civilisation depicted in the Dune books and movies was actually in terminal decline.
What would've happened if Paul Joined The Space Guild after he got to become Emperor. What would have happened? Can anyone who understands Dune answer the question?
Am I truly first? Love your videos!!
Congrats! Thank you!
I come here for my SciFi lore… how bout some Raised By Wolves vids???
Not sure why the spacing guild didn't just demand Arakis for their own, while sure they may not have had a standing army I'm sure they could have thrown something together and without allowing anyone else to go there they effectively own it.
Also seemed that humanity really took a really wrong turn with the ultra-religious aspect of it, ok AI managed to go crazy and they had to fight back against it, but making rules that completely outlaw all machines that perform jobs that humans can do really set them back and created this whole thing. "Dumb" computers could have probably been more than sufficient enough to use as navigators for instance and then poof no more spacing monopoly. Which is exactly what the Ixians did... well sorta.
Dumb computers aren't capable of prescience. The navigators literally see the future, allowing them to exit folded space safely. No computer, advanced or dumb, is capable of seeing the future. They can make models, sure, but that's not the same as prescience. As far as the Guild not taking over Arakis, they really didn't need to. As mentioned, EVERYBODY is already giving them a cut of their spice income. They have a monopoly of spice with no need to actually handle the harvesting, sand worms etc.
I agree, they took the religious aspect to the extremes, especially Reyna Butler and her fanatical group of jihadists who were destroying everything including life-saving medical equipment because they believed all technology was evil.
It's ironic that Frank Herbert treated robots and technology as evil but Isaac Asimov did the complete opposite in his Robot-Empire-Foundation series and made the robots the victims instead.
Apparently paul said in dune , that they could have done that and rulled for a few centuries but having someone else do it means millennia and allowed them to be the power behind the throne, like the sisterhood, they choose not to govern
@@shanenolan8252 yes, this was my takeaway. Why put yourself front and center as the power to topple while also having to do the work of actually gathering spice. If it's being freely given to you from multiple sources, and deep down you know that you run shit, why change?
@@ShirleyTimple yes shirly .
You haven't answeared the question. If they had a monopoly on space travel, how could they lose it? How did scattering of humanity affected the monopoly? Who is navigating the gates?
Answer: Ixian no ships had navigation computers that eliminated the need for Guild Navigators. They also shielded its occupants from prescient visions.
I see the guild as being like the mafia or the cartel.