Great cars, but the Evo1 was 2.5-16 too, not just the Evo II variant. It was private teams that raced the 2.3-16 with the regular body. The first factory race car and its road going variant was 2.5-16 Evo with Mercedes-Benz developed head, and none of the Evo models had the Cosworth head. BMW as far as I know did not chop M1's S38 engine, but only the cylinder head, and used it with the 4 cylinder M10 short block. It was 2.3 through Evo1 and Evo2, and only got the 2.5 with Sport Evolution (Evo3) variant in 1990. Finding these special cars and shooting a video with post production takes a lot of time and effort, it would be great if the information was correct, too.
Your points are all valid. We did the video with a high level overview of both cars for most people. The details that you point out are not well known, and may be confusing for the masses, so that is why we left them out in the video. Enjoy the Drive -- Mo
If we are to be 100% pedantic, the BMW E26 M1 was fitted with the M88 engine, not the S38. The S38 is a straight-6 DOHC petrol (gas), engine which replaced the M88 and was produced from 1984-1995. The S38 was originally produced for North America as an equivalent to the M88 with slightly lower power output and used in the North American E24 M6, whereas the European E24 M635 CSi was fitted with the identical M88 engine from the M1. The legend that is Paul Rosche simply lopped off 2 cylinders from the M88 head and mated it to the iron block from the M10. The S14 engine code was chosen because from concept to working engine took just 14 days...not 14 weeks. Great video, enjoyed it immensely.
@@Misano-Red Thanks for the additional clarity - Everything you said is absolutely correct. I do not know why I said 14 weeks -- Error on my part. Glad you enjoyed the video!
190e Evo2 is a mechanical masterpiece, and a true DTM & Road legend.!. And both rare as hell due to limited homologation build quantities and going into collectors portfolios.
Yup - Super well put together on the Evo 2. You can tell that Mercedes took their time, and really spent the engineering $$$. The Evo 2 can be driven on the street as a comfortable sedan, the E30 is a lot more buzzy, and hyper frenetic to drive. Quite a different personality.
Agreed, the evolution 2 sure is one hell of a car. Prices are just unbelievable 200,300, even 400K. Just a well engineered car from an era of notoriety ie, DTM,Rallying,F1 etc.
Yes, agreed, very nice car, and Prices on the Evo 2 are absolutely stunning! Not sure if I would ever spend that kind of $$$ on this car.. Especially with the challenges with finding parts that are unique to it.. We had to buy a suspension valve from a fellow in the middle east (new old stock) because it was NLA.. Had to have suspension hydraulic lines custom made because NLA.. So besides buying the car, maintaining it is also VERY costly... @@balnsingh4118
@@offcamberautosportshop yep, a company in Germany went to Mercedes Benz direct and purchased all evo2 parts bin... Now that company is charging ridiculous prices for spares. Absolutely money racketeering in my opinion, just shows $greed before true car heritage passion. Evo2 and infact ALL older cars should be preserved by ALL enthusiasts NOT just the super rich.
That is absolutely criminal! We tried MB Classic, and they had nothing. Spoke to some suppliers in Germany, and they said that they could not sell to us since we were US based.. I absolutely hate when companies price gouge.. Totally shameless.. @@balnsingh4118
You've got the story wrong! The E30 M3 was released nearly 4 years before the 190 EVO. 2 The 2.3 16V DTM and the EVO 1 DTM got spanked by the E30 M3 DTM. Mercedes then released the EVO 2 in 1990 which was a 2.5 litre at the end the tail end of the E30's production run. E30 M3 looks like it's burning coolant.
Yes, your details are correct on the various iterations of both cars. We were not trying to do a deep dive into ALL of the variations of both cars, the years they were made, and what version competed against what... This video was ment to celebrate both very cool cars that happened to be in the shop at the same time. Yes, this E30M3 had a lot of issues, and was actually bought back by the seller due to the multitude of issues that we found -- thanks for watching! Enjoy the drive -- Mo.
Hey, I am also a bimmer guy and don't mind to have any one of these 2 iconic machines in my garage. I used to have a e30 - regular 325i thought. It was truly a driver oriented, great handling machine with very good visibility. Note that the shift pattern of the e30 M3 is differ from the regular e30.
What a fantastic fair, professional & unbiased review, even though you are a BMW Fanboy, you still give praise to the Merc, like myself, I am a Ford Fanboy, yet there isn't a muscle car Brand, I didn't love & adore. Thanks for a beautiful review, I love both cars, I too, is from their era, well done brother. Great video.
Thanks so much for the kind words -- I truly believe ALL real car guys may have a passion for a particular brand, but appreciate ALL cool cars from ALL brand. Enjoy the Drive - Mo.
Good catch! This E30 M3 had a LOT more wrong with it -- The seller eventually had it shipped back to Europe after we give the buyer a FULL list of issues...
Yes, we know, Mo addressed that in the video, and one of the other comments below.. Many people are familiar with the 2.3-16, and know nothing about the 2.5-16 variant...
Was the 190E imported from Switzerland? It has a plugged up Intake as i can see at 10:12. This plug was designed to reduce the intake noise that the engine had due to Swiss federal regulations.
@@offcamberautosportshop In Switzerland the air intake from the 16v models were made a bit more silent by mounting a plastic cap in front of the air intake. Secondly there was a small tube mounted in the exhaust manifold for emission testing. Furthermore the rear spoiler from the Evolution 2 model was not road legal, therefore the Evolution 2 was officially sold with an Evolution rear spoiler. In the meanwhile however the Evolution 2 rear spoiler has become legitimate.
Excellent car! -- And yes I know this variant had the 2.5, the 2.3 is MUCH more common, and so many more folks know about that.. I do address that in the video. Thanks for the comment!
Agreed. I have seen some of the technical drawings of the suspensions of the real DTM cars, and they are totally different than the street cars. These cars are very cool time capsules of the time. - Enjoy the Drive - Mo.
@offcamberautosportshop Yes the Audi Quattro. Excellent video by the way keep them coming! I myself am a BMW guy having an E36 and E90 but personally, I would go with the EVO 2 over the M3.
The Quattro was an excellent car -- I remember driving one when they first came out. Thanks for the feedback. I love the e36, (race cars, and street cars) Enjoy the Drive -- Mo! @@hadarc8014
ABS only for 1990? 😅 ..... I got a 1992 JDM hot hatch made to enter a CS/1 make race series in Japan and certain part of Asia ... the standard production model got ABS+airbag, catalytic converter, fog lamps, power side mirrors and sound deading ... for the homologation model .... they delete the ABS+airbag, no fog lights, no catalytic converter, manual side mirrors and no sound deading😅 .... it does have a mechanical LSD ... crazy Japanese😅
Haha, cool! We do have the pleasure of working on multiple Japanese cars from the era, and it is amazing how much tech was put into them.. We had a 98 NSX in the shop, and I was smitten by how truly wonderful the car was.... Mo
Yes, I know, I address that in the video, and one of the other comments below.. Many folks are familiar with the 2.3-16, and know nothing about the 2.5-16 variant...
Good catch! This E30 M3 had a LOT more wrong with it -- The seller eventually had it shipped back to Europe after we give the buyer a FULL list of issues...
Interesting context that’s not totally correct. The Mercedes started as the regular 190e Benz that was introduced around 1981 and built in 1983 before the Cosworth collab to create the 2.3-16v engined car then raced. Note: In the DTM/ ETM or BTCC, Audi and Ford were a handful for the heavy 635 m-powered car and was no match for those cars. BMW then came with the e30 built strictly and solely for racing unlike the Merc. Engine was derived from the 1.0ltr bmw formula1 cars of 70’s that found its way in the //m1. 2 cylinders were cut off and built to the s14 car. Worth noting the e30 was a hit from the get go and spanked everything silly, it was not about speed but reliability and handling and it beat all competitors including the v8 Audis that were monstrous. The Merc Evo1/11 were a reaction to the BMWs handy beating of all on the track. It was still heavier than the Munich legend and was very luxurious compared to the out and out race car in the bmw. When new the Merc Evo was £55k in uk whilst the Bmw sport Evo costed £38k back then. In all the m3 was the true racer and the most successful race car of all time, not the Merc. This price difference is reflected today in both cars. But the bmw is still the sharper, lighter simpler car whilst the Merc is heavier more complex and faster. Steering in Merc was no where near the BMW’s that was from another planet altogether. Besides I’d go far as to say the engine alone in the bmw was much more special than that in the Merc because of its history in racing and pedigree. All in one just chooses one’s poison. But if a true racer is thr desired, then it’s bmw all the way. But if all details like “self levelling suspension”( which was present in thr Merc) and some comfort is desired then the Merc is the one. Both great cars overall
@@offcamberautosportshop thanks for the video, 👌🏿. Not a lot of low level info on those cars as it was a very interesting period in motoring history due to a lot of manufacturers being quite creative and experimenting including the likes of Porsche, Audi’s, fords and the Japanese weapons too etc etc. Really exciting period in motorsport during those days, I could go on about how those touring car racing drivers were batshit crazy then. Story for another day 😁
FYI .. That's an M3 base that makes 200hp. 240Tqe .. M3 Evo was compared against the 190e Evo that both have a history of RaceCars .. E30 M3 is 4 years older then the 190e Evo , this was poor journalism ....
while you are not wrong in the details, this comparison was done with the cars that were in the shop at the time -- This was not ment to be an extensive detailed review of all of the iterations of both cars. This was done for fun!
E30 M3 is pure Sport, MB tried 2.3 16V, EVO1, on no it's not enough then EVO2.... 190E isn't sport sedan, it's just a regular MB. EVERY M Car is Pure Sport compared to MB and this is TRUE! When you put big shoes to a small man it doen't mean that the man is big!!! Hate all these EVO body kit and e.t.c. it's just a joke. Mechanically E30 M is pure sport!
As a tried and true BMW-M Enthusiast, I agree with you, my preference is the E30 100%. The 190 is any form is a cool car, but not my cup of tea. --- Enjoy the drive, Mo.
Evo2 is a pure, thoroughbred racer at heart and an engineering masterpiece with such a balanced chassis and high r.p.m engine. Evo2 190e is an iconic legend.!.
It’s funny at glance both just look like generic old cars worth about 5k max , and to be honest I highly doubt they are even that good to drive in today’s reality 🤷♂️
Having driven both of them, they are actually really fun to drive. Very "analog" compared to todays cars. There is a LOT more feedback as well to what the car is doing. Are they as fast as today's cars, absolutely not. Do they feel awesome when taking a corner briskly, absolutely yes! :)
Idk if you've driven a 190e but it's drives better then new benzes therfore better then most modern cars on the road the suspension system is still extremely modern
München natürlich ❤
You have great taste my friend!! 🔥
@@offcamberautosportshop Ex E30 M3 Evo 1 owner 💪
awesome! @@tomyeplcharger
Great cars, but the Evo1 was 2.5-16 too, not just the Evo II variant. It was private teams that raced the 2.3-16 with the regular body. The first factory race car and its road going variant was 2.5-16 Evo with Mercedes-Benz developed head, and none of the Evo models had the Cosworth head. BMW as far as I know did not chop M1's S38 engine, but only the cylinder head, and used it with the 4 cylinder M10 short block. It was 2.3 through Evo1 and Evo2, and only got the 2.5 with Sport Evolution (Evo3) variant in 1990. Finding these special cars and shooting a video with post production takes a lot of time and effort, it would be great if the information was correct, too.
Your points are all valid. We did the video with a high level overview of both cars for most people. The details that you point out are not well known, and may be confusing for the masses, so that is why we left them out in the video. Enjoy the Drive -- Mo
If we are to be 100% pedantic, the BMW E26 M1 was fitted with the M88 engine, not the S38.
The S38 is a straight-6 DOHC petrol (gas), engine which replaced the M88 and was produced from 1984-1995. The S38 was originally produced for North America as an equivalent to the M88 with slightly lower power output and used in the North American E24 M6, whereas the European E24 M635 CSi was fitted with the identical M88 engine from the M1.
The legend that is Paul Rosche simply lopped off 2 cylinders from the M88 head and mated it to the iron block from the M10. The S14 engine code was chosen because from concept to working engine took just 14 days...not 14 weeks.
Great video, enjoyed it immensely.
@@Misano-Red Thanks for the additional clarity - Everything you said is absolutely correct. I do not know why I said 14 weeks -- Error on my part. Glad you enjoyed the video!
Both of them are Legend and Also 190E is my favourite car❤❤
It is a very cool car!
190😍😍😍
fine choice! She is special.
190e Evo2 is a mechanical masterpiece, and a true DTM & Road legend.!. And both rare as hell due to limited homologation build quantities and going into collectors portfolios.
Yup - Super well put together on the Evo 2. You can tell that Mercedes took their time, and really spent the engineering $$$. The Evo 2 can be driven on the street as a comfortable sedan, the E30 is a lot more buzzy, and hyper frenetic to drive. Quite a different personality.
Agreed, the evolution 2 sure is one hell of a car. Prices are just unbelievable 200,300, even 400K. Just a well engineered car from an era of notoriety ie, DTM,Rallying,F1 etc.
Yes, agreed, very nice car, and Prices on the Evo 2 are absolutely stunning! Not sure if I would ever spend that kind of $$$ on this car.. Especially with the challenges with finding parts that are unique to it.. We had to buy a suspension valve from a fellow in the middle east (new old stock) because it was NLA.. Had to have suspension hydraulic lines custom made because NLA.. So besides buying the car, maintaining it is also VERY costly... @@balnsingh4118
@@offcamberautosportshop yep, a company in Germany went to Mercedes Benz direct and purchased all evo2 parts bin... Now that company is charging ridiculous prices for spares. Absolutely money racketeering in my opinion, just shows $greed before true car heritage passion. Evo2 and infact ALL older cars should be preserved by ALL enthusiasts NOT just the super rich.
That is absolutely criminal! We tried MB Classic, and they had nothing. Spoke to some suppliers in Germany, and they said that they could not sell to us since we were US based.. I absolutely hate when companies price gouge.. Totally shameless.. @@balnsingh4118
The W201s were built in Bremen, where my mom was born.
Wow... that's cool man!
You've got the story wrong! The E30 M3 was released nearly 4 years before the 190 EVO. 2 The 2.3 16V DTM and the EVO 1 DTM got spanked by the E30 M3 DTM. Mercedes then released the EVO 2 in 1990 which was a 2.5 litre at the end the tail end of the E30's production run. E30 M3 looks like it's burning coolant.
Yes, your details are correct on the various iterations of both cars. We were not trying to do a deep dive into ALL of the variations of both cars, the years they were made, and what version competed against what... This video was ment to celebrate both very cool cars that happened to be in the shop at the same time. Yes, this E30M3 had a lot of issues, and was actually bought back by the seller due to the multitude of issues that we found -- thanks for watching! Enjoy the drive -- Mo.
I love your commentary about this cars 😂❤
Thanks so much that is kind. :)
Hey, I am also a bimmer guy and don't mind to have any one of these 2 iconic machines in my garage. I used to have a e30 - regular 325i thought. It was truly a driver oriented, great handling machine with very good visibility. Note that the shift pattern of the e30 M3 is differ from the regular e30.
Agreed, 100% -- Thanks for the comment, Mo
Gotta love BMW guys.... "The engine shakes quite a bit... the whole car shakes." Amazing to have these two in at the same time.
hahhhaha.. Yup, just a little! :) Thanks for watching!
What a fantastic fair, professional & unbiased review, even though you are a BMW Fanboy, you still give praise to the Merc, like myself, I am a Ford Fanboy, yet there isn't a muscle car Brand, I didn't love & adore. Thanks for a beautiful review, I love both cars, I too, is from their era, well done brother. Great video.
Thanks so much for the kind words -- I truly believe ALL real car guys may have a passion for a particular brand, but appreciate ALL cool cars from ALL brand. Enjoy the Drive - Mo.
Evo2 was 2.5l
Yes, you are correct. I do make this point during the video! Thanks for the comment.
blue smoke from the E30? You should check the headgasket.
Good catch! This E30 M3 had a LOT more wrong with it -- The seller eventually had it shipped back to Europe after we give the buyer a FULL list of issues...
He said 2.3L ? On the valve cover says 2.5L 😂
Yes, we know, Mo addressed that in the video, and one of the other comments below.. Many people are familiar with the 2.3-16, and know nothing about the 2.5-16 variant...
Nice video, love the 190e but both cars are historic
Agreed - Both absolutely awesome cars!
very nice video, congrats
Thank you very much!
Love this but what we need is a Lego Technic version Mercedes vs BMW vs Audi. Todays models and yesterdays
Cool idea!
Very interesting to see the 190e evo2 is « originally » from Switzerland. It has an extra part on the intake to make less noise
Interesting catch -- How do you know that part was only for Switzerland?
Was the 190E imported from Switzerland?
It has a plugged up Intake as i can see at 10:12. This plug was designed to reduce the intake noise that the engine had due to Swiss federal regulations.
Very interesting observation. I do not know. I will check with the owner. Are there any other distinguishing changes that were made for the Swiss?
@@offcamberautosportshop In Switzerland the air intake from the 16v models were made a bit more silent by mounting a plastic cap in front of the air intake. Secondly there was a small tube mounted in the exhaust manifold for emission testing. Furthermore the rear spoiler from the Evolution 2 model was not road legal, therefore the Evolution 2 was officially sold with an Evolution rear spoiler. In the meanwhile however the Evolution 2 rear spoiler has become legitimate.
@@arismidos4326 Interesting facts -- Thanks for sharing-- Enjoy the Drive, Mo.
M3 smoking like a demon 7:55 😮
2.5 cosworth engine it clearly says that why does he keep saying 2.3
Most folks know know the 2.3-16 -- This is an Evo 2, slightly punched out -- He addresses that later in the video.
It’s not a cosworth engine as many people seem to think, cosworth only designed and built the valve train!
Wow - did not know that -- Thanks for sharing!! @@leytonculverwell1210
Stuttgart of course 😂 and it’s a 2,5 liter engine 😅
Excellent car! -- And yes I know this variant had the 2.5, the 2.3 is MUCH more common, and so many more folks know about that.. I do address that in the video. Thanks for the comment!
The commentary was great, real knowledge and passion right there.
Thanks so much for the kind words.. Really glad the passion that I have for both of these wonderful cars came through! -- Enjoy the Drive, Mo
The best of best ❤️❤️
yup - both legends!!
@@offcamberautosportshop and Audi Quattro UR (S1)
For me German legends
There's very little in common between the road cars and the DTM cars!
Agreed. I have seen some of the technical drawings of the suspensions of the real DTM cars, and they are totally different than the street cars. These cars are very cool time capsules of the time. - Enjoy the Drive - Mo.
Would have even more excited had the Audi been there as well..
Do you mean the legendary Audi Quattro from the same era? Very cool car -- Would love to have had one of them in the video as well...
@offcamberautosportshop Yes the Audi Quattro. Excellent video by the way keep them coming! I myself am a BMW guy having an E36 and E90 but personally, I would go with the EVO 2 over the M3.
The Quattro was an excellent car -- I remember driving one when they first came out. Thanks for the feedback. I love the e36, (race cars, and street cars) Enjoy the Drive -- Mo! @@hadarc8014
ABS only for 1990? 😅 ..... I got a 1992 JDM hot hatch made to enter a CS/1 make race series in Japan and certain part of Asia ... the standard production model got ABS+airbag, catalytic converter, fog lamps, power side mirrors and sound deading ... for the homologation model .... they delete the ABS+airbag, no fog lights, no catalytic converter, manual side mirrors and no sound deading😅 .... it does have a mechanical LSD ... crazy Japanese😅
Haha, cool! We do have the pleasure of working on multiple Japanese cars from the era, and it is amazing how much tech was put into them.. We had a 98 NSX in the shop, and I was smitten by how truly wonderful the car was.... Mo
2.5-16 ΝΟΤ 2.3
Yes, I know, I address that in the video, and one of the other comments below.. Many folks are familiar with the 2.3-16, and know nothing about the 2.5-16 variant...
is the m3 have some oil problem ?🤔🤔👀👀
Good catch! This E30 M3 had a LOT more wrong with it -- The seller eventually had it shipped back to Europe after we give the buyer a FULL list of issues...
Question should be is there a beamer without oil leaking!😂😂😂
E30 all the way
Both are cool cars, but I am with you, E30! :)
Interesting context that’s not totally correct. The Mercedes started as the regular 190e Benz that was introduced around 1981 and built in 1983 before the Cosworth collab to create the 2.3-16v engined car then raced. Note: In the DTM/ ETM or BTCC, Audi and Ford were a handful for the heavy 635 m-powered car and was no match for those cars. BMW then came with the e30 built strictly and solely for racing unlike the Merc. Engine was derived from the 1.0ltr bmw formula1 cars of 70’s that found its way in the //m1. 2 cylinders were cut off and built to the s14 car. Worth noting the e30 was a hit from the get go and spanked everything silly, it was not about speed but reliability and handling and it beat all competitors including the v8 Audis that were monstrous. The Merc Evo1/11 were a reaction to the BMWs handy beating of all on the track. It was still heavier than the Munich legend and was very luxurious compared to the out and out race car in the bmw. When new the Merc Evo was £55k in uk whilst the Bmw sport Evo costed £38k back then.
In all the m3 was the true racer and the most successful race car of all time, not the Merc.
This price difference is reflected today in both cars. But the bmw is still the sharper, lighter simpler car whilst the Merc is heavier more complex and faster. Steering in Merc was no where near the BMW’s that was from another planet altogether. Besides I’d go far as to say the engine alone in the bmw was much more special than that in the Merc because of its history in racing and pedigree.
All in one just chooses one’s poison. But if a true racer is thr desired, then it’s bmw all the way. But if all details like “self levelling suspension”( which was present in thr Merc) and some comfort is desired then the Merc is the one. Both great cars overall
Agreed -- Thanks for sharing more details around the history of both of these legendary car! Love it!!
@@offcamberautosportshop thanks for the video, 👌🏿.
Not a lot of low level info on those cars as it was a very interesting period in motoring history due to a lot of manufacturers being quite creative and experimenting including the likes of Porsche, Audi’s, fords and the Japanese weapons too etc etc. Really exciting period in motorsport during those days, I could go on about how those touring car racing drivers were batshit crazy then. Story for another day 😁
Yes, and this is one of the reasons we love posting videos -- The fun discussions that they raise! Thanks!! To hell with the internet trolls @@y0057
Mercedes has the most DTM wins!
@@bernardwarr4187 clap for yourself, you won the internet 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾😝
FYI .. That's an M3 base that makes 200hp. 240Tqe .. M3 Evo was compared against the 190e Evo that both have a history of RaceCars .. E30 M3 is 4 years older then the 190e Evo , this was poor journalism ....
while you are not wrong in the details, this comparison was done with the cars that were in the shop at the time -- This was not ment to be an extensive detailed review of all of the iterations of both cars. This was done for fun!
E30 M3 is pure Sport, MB tried 2.3 16V, EVO1, on no it's not enough then EVO2.... 190E isn't sport sedan, it's just a regular MB. EVERY M Car is Pure Sport compared to MB and this is TRUE! When you put big shoes to a small man it doen't mean that the man is big!!! Hate all these EVO body kit and e.t.c. it's just a joke. Mechanically E30 M is pure sport!
As a tried and true BMW-M Enthusiast, I agree with you, my preference is the E30 100%. The 190 is any form is a cool car, but not my cup of tea. --- Enjoy the drive, Mo.
@@offcamberautosportshop
I am MB guy, but i always like to tell the truth... This is reality.
A man after my own heart -- Agreed!! @@W210Garage
Evo2 is a pure, thoroughbred racer at heart and an engineering masterpiece with such a balanced chassis and high r.p.m engine. Evo2 190e is an iconic legend.!.
Yup, a VERY cool car that we are super grateful that the client trusts us with... :) @@baggiesikhsingh9871
It’s funny at glance both just look like generic old cars worth about 5k max , and to be honest I highly doubt they are even that good to drive in today’s reality 🤷♂️
Having driven both of them, they are actually really fun to drive. Very "analog" compared to todays cars. There is a LOT more feedback as well to what the car is doing. Are they as fast as today's cars, absolutely not. Do they feel awesome when taking a corner briskly, absolutely yes! :)
Idk if you've driven a 190e but it's drives better then new benzes therfore better then most modern cars on the road the suspension system is still extremely modern
Agreed -- The 190E gives a lot more road feedback that most every "modern car" -- I find most modern cars are numb.. @@carft1234