Stop adding cyclones to your under-powered dust collector!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- If you're a proud owner of a single-stage dust collector in your workshop, or plan to buy one, and are considering the idea of outfitting it with a cyclone collection system, then wait. Watch this video first before making that decision. It's not a short video but I want to provide my experience with cyclone collection/separation solutions, in an unrehearsed, and straight from the heart, candid message explaining the trials and the potential risks in using them.
This video is focused toward small shops, moonlighters, and weekend woodworkers using basic dust collectors that aren't designed, nor powered enough, for a cyclone separator. Two-Stage cyclone solutions serve perfectly well in larger shops when the system is engineered and sold as a complete solution.
NOTE: I mistakenly described my manifold setup. It consists of four "Y" connectors, not "T" connectors and has 2 long-throw 90 degree connectors because 45 degree connector pairs would not fit the tight space below the workbench area it is running through.
I was considering making an adapter from the collector to a city compost bin. Now I am not so sure because of the fire hazard. Thank you 😊
Before 100 angry mobsters with torches jump on this response. I just want to convey, the fire hazard is a "potential issue" -- not common. Aside from a potential ember igniting from a rouge cut nail, I have certainly experienced smoldering embers in the cavity of my table saw when I have improperly pushed a near dull blade to its limits or lost squareness from the fence. Who's to say that it would never make it to the dust bin/bag? Yes, many will chime in and say "never happened to me" but I can honestly say, "I never lost a finger too, nor do I know anyone who has, to a table saw." yet SawStop is doing quite well. The key take away is the "potential" not the commonality of the situation.
I'm glad your leaning on the safe side of things. Thanks for watching and chiming in! Be well and enjoy the craft.
I agree. The bag is SUCH a PITA to empty. However, there are mods you can make (like a platform with some sides) that ease this annoyance. Either way I appreciate both sides of this and think I'll stay without a cyclone and invest in a cylinder filter.
I had a fire beneath my chop saw. Since my saw is bolted down to a rollable cabinet and couldn't get to the smoldering fire I had to quickly disassemble the dust collection and the mounting of the saw to get to it. By the time I got to the fire it had self extinguished. The cause of the fire was heat generated by the saw blade. I've subsequently changed the blade. If you have a saw that is having a hard time cutting then it's generating a lot of heat. Potential fire. Yes, it happens. Often ? ? ? Well, this was the first fire in two years of chopping and cutting. And I didn't hit a nail. It CAN happen.
The other advantage I've found with a 2 stage setup, is that the impeller and motor life increase substantially as your not pulling those large chips through the impeller as they fall to the bottom of the drum and the fine dust gets pulled through the impeller into the bag.
My £20 Chinese plastic cyclone catches sander fine dust very... very well. Not only that but also saved me a lot of money on shop vac bags. In my opinion a cyclone is an essential part of a dust collection system.
How would you know? You can't see the fine dust.
Exactly. I'm so annoyed by this guy wasting 15 minutes of my time saying the same thing he collectively described in about 4 minutes worth, and I'm gonna break it down for him with real cost/ return figures. There's no way he's gonna avoid spraying all that "fine dust" across the shop after his filter springs a leak from reverse blowing it out with high pressure air...
I didn't see what he used to blow it out, but 20psi air compressor air shouldn't cause any issues for the filter. But they make better canisters that have clean out beaters that basically hit the pleats to knock out the dust.
@@helamanssons1491 WHAT?
@@woodworkerroyer8497 that’s what I have it it works great, I blow it out once a year. He does make a valid point about fire.
After watching this video I got an idea. You have your dust collector and you also have your dust extractor like these for small tools as you know large system is not that great for hand tool dust collecting applications. So, I bought a Kirby vacuum cleaner motor head which has an impeller that is separated from the motor, which has a separate assembly to get cooled. The impeller sucks the dust and within few inches exhausts it to a bag via 3 inch pipe. I’ve removed the bag and connected the three inch hose to a 4 inch hose to my large shop three stage dust extractor with cyclonic action. This way I have one place for all the dust from the small and large tools, none of the filter expense of expensive small systems like festool and other, takes very little space and it’s in-line install setup for under 100 bucks. Awesome video as always very informative. Thank you.
I think you're missing the main point - the purpose of a cyclonic separator is NOT to reduce the amount of ultra-fine dust that has to be filtered . It is primarily meant to remove the larger chips and shavings that will rapidly fill up the lower bag of your collector (which is a pain to empty). By redirecting those larger bits into a more manageable bucket or drum, you don't have to wrestle with that lower collection bag on your collector nearly as often.
Thanks Tony. I appreciate you taking the time to watch the video. I didn’t miss that point. I was pointing out the same thing you just noted and driving home that the filter is still going to clog up. Many argue it will take far longer to clog up with a cyclone. That’s not true. It will clog up at a slower rate but the difference is negligible. BUT that’s my experience.
I couldn't agree more with Tony's comments. First, size the motor correctly for your entire system (including the cyclone). Second, if you are really concerned about "seeing" a fire start in your drum, then install windows on opposite sides of your drum and shine a light in it. That would provide the same solution as looking in a plastic bag. Curious if anyone has ever had a fire caused by static electricity or a spark traveling within the ductwork to the drum. I have never heard of either thing happening.
So how to separate ultra fine dust such as cement board dust?
@@FranklyRustic So I guess the question is, does the filter clog first, or does the bag fill with chips before that happens. And if the bag fills first, does it do so fast/often that separating the larger chips & shavings makes a cyclonic separator worth it? For tools like drills, planers and jointers, I'd say yes. For high-dust producers like lathes and sanders, the filter will probably clog a lot faster. Saws are in between, depending on blade, cut (rip or cross), and material. Concrete work will DEFINITELY produce more and finer dust. For those situations, perhaps a pre-filter, such as those used on dirt bike air filters, might help. All of the above is strictly my opinion, based on experience, and not scientific evidence. But I have been working with this kind of thing for over two decades. Of course, back in the "good old days" PPE and dust collection was not as high a priority (kinda like helmets & armored gear for motorcycles...), so take what I say with as many grains of salt (or dust) as you like. 😆
Yes it will clog less but only because you are effectivly increasing the bag size by adding a cyclone, and now you have to empty two units instead of one.
In my two-stage collector used for the large CNC, the type of material I am cutting determines which side needs changed the most often. When cutting MDF, the container on the filter side needs constant emptying while the separator container stays mostly empty. When cutting plywood or non-composites, as well as plastics, the cyclone side fills up much faster. Running constant 5x10 MDF sheets requires emptying the dust from the filter side at least once a day if not more.
In my opinion cyclone separators are essential to prevent unnecessary damage to the blower impeller. When I added one to my system, I cut a rectangular viewport in my can and sealed it back with plexiglass and silicone caulk. That way I can see how full the can is & any potential fire issues.
Here is a crazy thought:
There are some vacuums that use a water trap to avoid blasting dust back out of the exhaust.
As a "cheap solution” to fine particles, If you are already using a cyclone to capture the larger dust, why not simply send the exhaust from your vacuum through a pipe to the bottom of a bucket of water? With a lid perhaps… to avoid water drops from the bubbles spilling out.
My experience with separators is air flow. Higher velocity will separate more dust. I had this experience with a small separator. When hooked to my sander, air flow was so restricted by the presence of the working piece to the face of the sander that air flow was minimal Beyond the separator is the filter, and yes, it clogs up with very fine dust. And yes, it has to be cleaned out periodically. Armed with this self revelation I decided to add a second port to my small dust collection (not to be confused with my large collector). This second port can be opened then blocked with a smaller pipe which allows air to infiltrate the system but still drawing sanding dust away from the work surface. The result has been greatly reduced amount of time I have to spend cleaning out the final filter and more fine dust making its way into the separator. Air flow is the key. Ultra low air flow means very slow moving dust and much less cyclonic action, which results in failure to separate the fine dust. Again, air flow is the key to good dust separation. Prior to upgrading my large dust collector I removed two coffee cans worth of ultra fine dust from the cloth filter bag. Cleaning dust collectors IS a fact of life. Unless you have your exhaust blowing outside the shop. But then in the winter you're blowing all your heat outside. In summer you're blowing your cool air out of the shop. Exterior exhaust would only be plausible when the weather outside is as good as you want inside. Here, where I live, that's rare. Summers are way hot and winters are way cold. Spring and Fall seem to last just a few weeks each.
One last comment directed at this video - way too much talking. I skipped through much of it before just stopping it and commenting. Nice effort and good information, but the presentation is way too long to hold much interest. At least my interest. Don't know about others.
Thank you for watching and your comment, Pete. I appreciate that. As for your last comment, I agree 100%. As it is obvious, It wasn't really planned out nor scripted. None of my other videos are long winded as this one either. A lesson was learned. hehe. I've been focusing on getting projects done and not spending time on any videos. However, I plan to return to making some real soon.
Cheers good man.
Best,
Frank
Hey, Frankly thx for the insight and taking the time to make this video. I agree on some points and disagree on some points. From what I have seen cyclone systems are not engineered they are just thrown together. This leads to mismatched systems in many ways. None of the DIY cyclones state what the optimal flow rate is and that is a disservice to the buyer.
Cyclones are designed to operate over a range of air flow. Too much flow and or too little flow and they don't work. When you look inside a Dyson vacuum you will find a HEPA filter. That filter is there to filter the air when the system is starting up or shutting down when the airflow is not optimal for the cyclones to operate.
As for suction reduction ALL filtering systems impose a restriction to flow, period. It's just a matter of how much and can the system tolerate the reduced flow.
I live near a bunch of defunct furniture manufacturing plants and they ALL have cyclonic separators either on the roof or near the building. It is quite telling that they are all outside. If these manufacturers didn't have clean air in the building(s) then OSHA would force them to clean up the air if they wanted to continue to operate. Hooray for OSHA which typically gets a black eye for all they do to protect the worker from corp greed.
Frankly, you have a great point about a hot ember. Mitigating that problem seems like it would be its own study. Maybe flame detectors, metal cyclones etc.
I like the bag idea and it makes a lot of sense. The bag requires to be in a stiff container if negative pressure is present or no container if positive pressure is present.
Back to the Dyson vacuum. They use a two stage cyclonic system. The first stage removes stuff like small animals, matchbox toys and other big things. The final stage uses an array of parallel small cyclones. When you dump the filter canister you can see the super fine dust is trapped in the center section and the big stuff is trapped in the outer section. And don't forget the HEPA filter for startup and shutdown. Always dump the canister outside not in your home.
If a properly designed cyclonic system is good enough for a furniture manufacturer then it's good enough for my shop. Again, properly designed not just thrown together.
A white paper is on the internet that shows how to design a cyclone. That and a spreadsheet and you're on your way to a successful design. It all centers around particle size you are trying to filter and flow rates.
Link to one paper: www.researchgate.net/publication/312160127_Design_and_fabrication_of_cyclone_separator
There are formulas, no calculus and a lot of text for guidance.
In summary:
You need to have a matched system for the fan/blower that you are using. Be it a filer or cyclonic system.
Filters are still needed.
A two stage system is best. A stage for big stuff and a stage for super fine dust.
Don't expose the contents of the collection device bag, bin or box to the workshop area.
Be mindful of hot embers and their mitigation.
Frankly thx for making this video and sharing.
100% share your opinions, but I do believe it is a matter of personal preference also.
I had a Dust Deputy (small cyclone) in the past in line with my ShopVac which was a big help because it prevented the pleated filter from clogging up. In this case, the cyclone INCREASED suction and air flow because it kept the filter clean. It also paid for itself in replacement filters.
For a true bag-bottom/filter-top dust collector, these already have chip separation built in, that's why the heavy stuff falls into the bottom bag. When I upgraded to a true dust collector I got rid of the Dust Deputy. My dust collector rolls around from machine to machine and there is no need for duct-work. It would be a real pain to move a cyclone or baffle system around with it. The impeller is steel and I have no worries about the chips hitting the internal parts.
However, I do agree with the folks pointing out the planer/jointer chips clogging the inlet from time to time. I suppose there is no "Goldie Locks" system.
I have a very different experience with cyclone collectors. I've done several plaster repair/remodel projects on an old house over the past 5 years or so. Plaster/drywall seems to challenge any bag/filter setup I can trow at it. The rigid OSHA top end bag/filter combo works fairly well on it's own, but the suction does taper off with the bags ultimately clogging. Since changing adding a cyclone, a few years ago, I've been on the same bag/filter. Where as I would have clogged at least a half dozen bags over the same time if no cyclone.. The suction loss cyclone there, but negligible.
Thanks for watching and commenting! Genuinely. That's not sarcasm from me. Shop dust collectors vs shop vacs are completely different animals. I am sorry, but that would be comparing peaches to apples. Cyclones add a serious substantial loss in power. It's just science...not opinion. Particularly with the overstated, underpowered, dust collectors like the Harbor Freight 2HP.
The separators of any type are also in place to keep your existing canister type collectors operating at peek efficiency. As the beg fills- the CFM is drastically reduced. Separating the large pieces, reduces this issue. And I would agree that the “micro dust” passes through the separator- that’s when a quality filter bag or canister type pleated filter is important.
I agree. Separators have a place and improve the system in many ways if the system came with a separator. However, in my experience retrofitting several different kinds of them to a system that is not designed to have them, the suction performance is reduced notably causing insufficient performance. In the end, my table saw and jointer experienced the most buildup in their cavities. After restoring back to the original setup (but with a better filter) the performance is night and day. The cavities are way cleaner. My only drawback is now using bags again, which is quite negligible for many reasons I've noted in the video.
Also note, a bag's volume of debris will not affect the CFM at all as long as you stay on top of your exhaust filter.
Maybe someone can build a system using water to catch the very fine particles of dust before it gets to the shop vac or dust collection system. After all the old cars and tractors used an oil bath to keep air clean before it gets to the carburetor.
@@nico8587d lol- Rainbow
Agree on you tube sales pitches. I gave up on several of the lawn care channels. It was like watching home shopping network at times. Nice video.
Thanks Rick! It is a shame. I think as soon as a channel gets big enough to get an ad agency involved, the channel nose dives to the sharks.
I believe that a cyclone in a properly designed system can work very very well. I service industrial printers for a living. One of the models I take care of use a cyclone for all cleaning in the machine, for toner and paper dust, both of which are much finer (sub micron) than any sawdust that I'm aware of. The air filter in these is a .5 micron rating, these filters last for usually about 5 million prints. If that much toner and paper dust were going past the cyclone that filter would plug up instantly, ( they are smaller than a shoebox!), even after a month of running 8 to 24hrs a day that filter is clean as a whip. The cfm must be matched to the pipe and overall system layout to be effective. Yes, cyclone separators do induce loss, but this should be planned for, then it's not an issue. Great video, luv the content.
1000x this! If you read bill pentz's site (one of the grandfathers of the cyclone) he not only notes the effective ratios of a cyclone (much taller and skinnier than most out there) but puts emphasis on impeller size as part of the ratio... And as you can imagine. The size of the impeller dictates the motor size. I think the optimal setup is over 8' tall with a 5hp motor, unless you can drastically increase velocity like a supercell does.
With that being impractical, the focus becomes capturing dust as much as possible at the source, and managing it in the shop with an air cleaner and particle counter. I use a leaf blower to blow out my shop and keep everything in drawers/cabinets so that dust I'm not capturing isn't settling all over the place.
I use a thien baffle to remove large debris and the fine is vented to the outside. The barrel is on casters and it gets spread around the blue berry bushes. Wear a KN 95 for the 10 minutes it takes to do that. No filter to maintain.
You don't live in Nebraska and do shop work in the fall and winter 😁
This would be ideal at the time of year when the shop isn't heated.
I have an old high power Craftsman wet/dry shop vac. I put a cyclone on it. Return it. (Cyclone) I lost about 50% power. And the vacuum was pulling the dust straight from inlet to outlet. Yes the cyclone I had was sized for the.CFM of the vacuum and the hose was a match in size.
Watch Under Dunn, he makes and tested a system with a cyclone. It works better than his old bag system
It has to lower the over all CFM though right??? I’m redoing my system from a 2 to 4 inch now and debating on cyclone or not- only have a small system built into my workbench w a 1 HP 660 CFM Wen collector
Cyclone design also plays a big role in the size of dust particles captured in the cyclone. Dwell time in the spiral can cause a clumping action that does capture very fine particles. Matching the correct size cyclone to the blower is critical. Ideally the orifice should neck slightly entering the cyclone to increase air speed within the cyclone.
You mention the risk of hitting a nail and throwing sparks into your cyclone or trash can, but I've heard the same argument about your single stage collector, where a stray bit of metal sucked up by your system hitting that massive impeller, which is the first thing EVERYTHING you suck up comes in contact with. I have the same HF single-stage unit you do. When that bag gets anywhere near halfway full, it is a hugely dusty struggle to remove it and shlep it to the trash can. I am planning to make my HF collector a 2 stage system in the near future, probably with a large Dust Deputy cyclone. Thanks for your honest opinion.
Hello @gjforeman. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment.
Absolutely. The risk is there in either scenario. The risk is very very low but still there.
Bear in mind that dust collectors are not that great in picking up nails like a shop vac can. Dust collectors are suck up higher volume of dust but not at the proportional level of suction power. Two different properties of action going on between the two machines.
For that portion of the video, I just wanted to convey the interest in visibility is all. It's not unheard of to build up smoldering embers in a table saw if the machine is overworked with a dulling blade. Those embers are certainly lighter in weight than nails.
Cyclones have their place. I just think it's misleading for the market to let the public think it will always perform on any machine, for any circumstance, with zero loss of any kind.
In any case, be safe and do what work best for you.
Cheers,
Frank
Years ago I built a 1st stage cyclone (plans from Pop Mechanics, IIRC) that is 20in diameter and uses 6in ducting. It should not reduce air flow significantly, nor should it allow heavy items like metal to pass the cyclone and strike the impeller. My plan is to insert it between the HF inlet and dust collection ductwork.
Having watched this video, I will likely scrap the trash can upgrade and will likely substitute a bag for the stage 1 trash can I had planned.
I've got a thein baffle on a HF collector connected to a canister filter all connected with 5" pipe. The baffle gets nearly everything unless the can overflows while using the jointer or planer. About $60 in parts and a small window and I have a full bucket light. No way would I go back to the bag. The clean-out box under my filter rarely has anything more than a layer of fine dust and the only cleanings the filter has needed were because of overflows. I haven't tested the suction either but it's good enough for the benefits it has. According to an air quality monitor the current system is doing fairly well but not so well I can ditch wearing a mask.
The filter helps to counter the suction loss of the separator vs the cloth bags. Minimizing flex hose is another cheapish way to further mitigate the loss.
It IS underpowered, I can't use it effectively with all my machines. So I bought a used Tempest cyclone w 3hp blower. Need to get it mounted and piped!
My cyclone canister is in the garage about 20’-40’ away from the machine room. Air is filtered between shop and garage. Emptying the canister is easy: 1. open garage door, 2. lower 30 gallon canister to floor on it casters 3. roll canister out to the driveway. **Then wheelbarrow the canister over to the hill where we compost brush and leaves. Take a big breath and dump sawdust into the thatch pile. DC is the single biggest improvement to my shop in many years, a few weeks ago I added an in shop air filter with a smart switch to daily cycle the air through the filter, only regret is I wish I would have done it a lot sooner.
i actually agree. many vids out there lack to mention the lower air flow. i do own a cyclone for my makita shopvac as a hobby workshop. but my container to collect dust is only 5L and I clear it out every end of the day if I were to do any wood work. due to the high static pressure of my vac I hadn't been able to find a container for my cyclone that wouldnt resist being deformed, so I ended up using a stainless steel container for my cyclone. and MANY vids out there fail to mention that there is still a need for L/M/H class or OSHA compliant vacs that actually filter out the ultra fine particles
If you're worried about a spark igniting your dust container, putting a separator -before- a screw or something gets sucked through the impeller sounds like a very good move.
I've really benefitted from my cyclone. It's so much easier to empty than the bags. It takes two people to easily change the bag. The cyclone bin is easy for one person to empty. Of course, I'm emptying it every 15 minutes when using my big sander.
It s a very good video with lots of information. However, from my learning about the dust collection, cyclone is a device to separate the dust or larger chip before the blower. If in case a larger or harder piece goes to the system, it hit the fan blade and eventually break or bend the blade. I think it is one of the reason why people add cyclone before the canister filter. Am I right?
Yes but you lose about half your suction so you should have at least 2hp as well as cannisters filter(s)
A centrifugal pump or fan if the intake or discharge is blocked or closed will deadhead or cavitate, a positive displacement pump or piston type “mover” air or liquid will not cavitate, it will either implode on suction side or explode on discharge side if blocked. That’s why dust collectors are centrifugal type blowers. The only reason to install an inline separator on suction side is to reduce or possibly prevent chips from damaging your impeller. If it’s just dust then it won’t damage it. Frequent maintenance and cleaning will let you know if you may need an inline separator. If there is no neighbors or osha concerns you can forgo the filter and put a discharge vent to the outside of your shop. That’s where you will need a better dust/chip separator so that you are only discharging the fine micron size dust particles outside. The old saying solution to pollution is dilution, well the fine micron dust particles will eventually settle out on the ground down wind and return to dirt eventually. The filter just keeps the harmful dust out of our lungs in the workshop.
I bought a used harbor freight system that was modified to have a garbage can cyclones and after a few months of using it I open the lid and was surprised to see that I had very little large debris. Perhaps when you’re using a planer or jointer more often you would have bigger pieces but since I am primarily just on the tablesaw most everything is going into the bag anyway.
I think I may remove the trash can cyclone for awhile to see how much a difference it makes. I could always repurpose the trash can space for a small shops cabinet to store all my dust collection accessories.
Excellent points Evan! I would love to hear your experience if you perform this reversal. I am confident you will be pleased with the results. You'll save space, time, and your lungs. Definitely consider upgrading the filter bag to a Donaldson filter (See my other video on this topic, titled "Dont' buy a Wynn filter..."). I suspect your table saw's inside cavity will never have been so clean after the reversal! hehe. Please note: Don't expect the transition to greatly improve the fallout above the table. Keep in mind that no DC solution will stop the mess above the table unless you add an overhead collection system to the table saw. That's something many youtubers fail to note.
I built my own cyclone years ago, it collects most of the very fine dust, so much that I only have to empty the collection bag about every ten or more times cleaning the main collection bin. Never had an issue with fire.
Thank you. I also built a thien collector for my system and got rid of it. What no one mentions is the loss of suction by adding a separator/cyclone.
Exactly!
Thank you for your video, while I disagree with a lot of your logic in the video I think you did a better job whilst replying to comments here that this was your own opinion based on the results of your specific system in your work flow. Agreed 100% that adding a cyclone to a system that is under powered to begin with and then not plumbed efficiently will certainly lead to worse dust collection than without it. As far as your fire concerns we have heard this for many years, but there has never been a documented case of a home dust collection system doing this. It does happen with Industrial systems. I believe this goes back to the under powered to generate enough static pressure in the system to create a spark. There are however been numerous documented cased of guys having items get stuck in and even destroy the impellers in single stage dust collection systems.
Thanks Doug. As I am clearly new to producing TH-cam videos, I admit, its much easier to express (AND correct) my points in the comments. Note: I too, don't believe in static sparks igniting wood dust. We've probably read the same research on it too. What I do know from experience are two things: Accidentally cutting a nail definitely has some sparks flying, and accidentally sawing with the blade on backwards is like making fire with two sticks. The latter did produce tiny embers in the table saw cavity and took a while to go out under close observation. Had the ember made its way to the separator bin, it "may" be a disaster. When I saw smoke coming out of the throat plate, I immediately stopped, freaked out, kicked myself a couple of times for mounting the saw blade on backwards, and then did some damage control. Someone might not be that fortunate as I was. That's my only point. I do clearly state it's not common. The impellers are pretty small, few, and widely spread. I guess jamming up the impeller is probably up there in probability of disaster as much as the smoldering ember scenario. More or less than a fire?... I don't know the answer to that and I won't act like I do.
As I have to the other civil people here... I thank you for your time and input! My main point of ditching the 2-stage method is the generous loss of suction power for a setup not originally intended for one. Even in a well sealed system. I think the fire issue has certainly got on everyone's nerves. Honestly, I am shocked the negativity produced such positive results to my analytics. TH-cam pretty much rates this video as my best video conversion rate to date. Which isn't much but damn! But don't worry... my next videos will not be focused on scare tactics and controversial topics. That was never my intent.
Be well and have fun in the shop. Cheers.
@@FranklyRustic I've gone down that same road HF dust collector, then the mods. With my current setup (new impeller, motor directly over the cyclone, and a Wynn filter) I actually have the same suction from a pressure standpoint I cannot say as far as the volume goes, but never have any issues with my setup. I wonder if yours came down to the DC not being able to keep up with the stock impeller and the plumbing with hard 90° turns?
I think the stock impeller is the culprit and why I do not suggest the mod. Unless of course, the effort to the mod includes upgrading the impeller. Which, in hindsight, could have been conveyed had I thought of the at the time of the video but then I have to wonder if the larger impeller will stress the mock-rated motor. I say mock-rated because HF 2HP motors are definitely not 2HP motors. I am using long throw 90° turns. Two 45's would be even better but I do not have the clearance under the assembly table for that setup. The insides of my table saw body and bandsaw used to collect dust in the inner corners. More so in the table saw as I could grab fistfulls of dust. And my 2-stage system was sealed damn good. I even foil-taped all connections at the time to be certain. Once I deleted the cyclone and reverted back, there is no dust inside the bodies of the bandsaw and tablesaw. A marked improvement. The fallout above the tablesaw has also improved but I still dust on the table surface. Only way to fix that is with an overhead dust collection shrowd connected to a shop vac.
I was about to sink a lot of effort and some money on upgrading my dust collection system. I didn't even think to check amazon for plastic bags. Less than $4 per bag. Thank you for the video.
I used to change my filter every 2 to 6 months. I built my own cyclone 3 years ago, have not had to change the filter since. I have plenty of suction so I do not notice the reduction in air flow. I used clear plastic on the cyclone. I never used recycled wood, too expensive on blades.
I keep the cyclone and dust collection outside, so never release any dust into the shop.
How do you feel about impeller upsizeing/upgrade?
Out of curiosity, I may have missed it, but what would you define as underpowered? 2hp? 1.5hp? 1hp?
I didn't hear that either...
Good video! Certainly food for thought . . it seems like you might be right.
I had a few plans for a quite long system with a cyclone, but at the same time trying to include all the components I bought with my original dust collector . .
But now, why not just keep it the same, move it outside and shorten it by about 10 metres (35' for my American friends), without the cost of a cyclone!!!
I use my dust collector as a elephant nose and pick up from my shop floor. EVERYTHING staples accidentally pulled 3 narrow crown staples through 1.5 inch and alway. I also empty it at the end of using it also for the fire hazard.
Fire- extraction system fires are very rare, and are usually due to motor overheat rather than ingested sparks. Cyclone drums are at maximum vacuum whilst running, reducing the oxygen available. When off, there is a fixed amount of air in the drum; when this is consumed the fire cannot continue.
An HVLP extractor like yours is ideal for large volume chip producing machines such as a planer (which you may call a jointer, even though it does not joint anything...) but is less suitable for other tools such as sanders, routers, etc. These use smaller diameter hoses, produce more fine dust, and benefit from a higher pressure extractor (LVHP). These are better suited to a cyclone (most are too small for HVLP systems). These machines produce a lower volume of dust, and a smaller drum can be used.
Using two different dust collector system may seem excessive, but the physics dictates this- a single system that gives both high volume and high pressure is very large and expensive; better to have two that are smaller overall, and cheaper.
I agree as I have shopvacs for each sander stations and router table. The DC is only hooked up to the planer, the jointer, the table saw, and the band saw. The table saw and band saw are my dust makers for my DC. The vacuum pressure you speak of is interesting. I appreciate that explanation and take fault in not having that knowledge to convey at the time of the video. I’m not sure what you mean by the air being “fixed” upon shutdown. You mean equalized? I’m not challenging your term, I just want to know if I understand your point.
In any case, the drop in air volume due to retrofitting it to my HF DC was a big part of my decision to undo the upgrade.
@@FranklyRustic Yes, it is all more complex than it first appears. I have spent some time researching and experimenting... HVLP extractors are typically induction motors; good power, cool running and quieter, but run at 3600RPM (on 60Hz). This needs a large impeller- up to 4ft across if you want the vacuum levels achievable by a LVHP extractor. These are typically universal (brushed) motors running above 15,000RPM. Noisier, and lower (actual) power - impellers are more like 4" in diameter, which limits the airflow possible.
I have experimented with a 4hp 3 phase spindle driving a six inch impeller at 18,000RPM- it gives improved performance, but was not as quiet as I hoped- most of the noise is the impeller. Practically it is better to have two systems, for the different machines. Yes, you need a big cyclone for a 4" hose- industrial models usually have twin horizontal separators. Probably not worth the effort for a small shop. 3" hoses down benefit from cyclones, especially if you just exhaust the dirty air.
Depending on your setting, there is an argument for mounting the whole extraction system outside. For one installation I mounted it all in the roof space, with the drum just below the ceiling. Quieter, and very little space taken.
What's a 'Fire-extraction system fire' ?
@@randallsemrau6911 It is Fire (-pause) extraction fires are...
In other words, it is a sub-head to indicate what the topic is- in this case the coverage of fire in extraction systems.
A new paragraph marked the end of the topic.
@@Tensquaremetreworkshop How about *Fire* or *Fire:* To make it bold, use an asterisk on each end of the word or word string, with no spacing. **Fire:** or **Fire in the shop**
I was sanding reclaimed lumber for months recently, having to stop every couple hours of work to empty the shop vac AND clean the filter. Sometimes I was in a groove (some of you know that feeling!) and forgot to empty/clean the vac/filter: ended up with completely brown walls before I realized it. I did not know anything about dust collection then, but began researching (thanks TH-cam) and so I learned about cyclone separators. I did not believe them at first, but finally I broke down and bought a generic white cyclone from Amazon. Bruh, the results were something magical! I literally have not had to open the vac in months, except to check the filter, which is always spotless. So, when I picked up a deal on a Grizzly impeller-style dust collector, I thought maybe I could modify it to add the 4 inch port cyclone, which last I checked is only available from the name brand known as DD. I still want to try this idea, but I've seen others saying it doesn't work well. At this point, I think it's the type of air flow in shop vac versus that in a single phase dust collector system (high pressure low volume in a shop vac versus high volume low pressure in the standard single phase dust collector). The spark issue seems to be more of a problem with the single phase system in general as all debris, including the random metal shard, travels through the metal impellers, creating the smoldering ember hazard. Modifying this to a two phase system with a cyclone separator seems like it would alleviate that concern altogether because everything will be separated and fall out well before the impeller. However, maybe this modification messes up the air flow too much, which is why some creators recommend not doing it (Stumpy Nubs, for instance). However, another consideration for me is that I'm not operating a huge woodshop with lots of distance for dust extraction to travel, only a small two car garage. I really appreciate your video and input, as well as from others in the Woodwork community. It's helped me learn so much! 🫂!
If you're sanding for months in an enclosed garage, be sure to wear a proper OSHA mask and fit a HEPA filter to your vacuum. Don't rely on these fabric-bag style dust collectors, because a lot of invisible dust leaks and ends up in your lungs. Or keep your garage door completely open with a 4ft-diameter industrial fan blowing out all the particles to your neighbors. If you doubt me, $50 you can buy you a particle meter that will scare the daylight out of you.
There are several research papers online on cyclone sizing for industrial applications that can shed light on several aspects of a residential low-power system. I've used them to calculate the optimal air speed and pressure drop and then found a cyclone design that delivered close to that, which I confirmed with an anenometer and a bernoulli barometer. It helps that I have a mechanical engineering degree but that's a more data-based approach, opposed to a bunch of one-man opinions who don't have the same setup as yours.
@@rogerbritus9378 I didn't know any better at the time unfortunately, but was actually pretty stoked when the problem lead me to discover these canister filters that can be fitted to bag-style dust collectors, even older models like I have. That's definitely a worth while purchase. The filter for my machine would be somewhere around $300. I'm still on my dust collection setup journey and appreciate all the info people are willing to share. Thanks so much!
@@ForestWoodworks Those canister filters look like a great idea and, despite their cost, a good and simple solution. As long as they really filter well, of course. Let us know how that work out for you.
@@rogerbritus9378 for sure! I'll upload some content once I've got things sorted out. There should be at least a couple different situations I can present.
If you have room, get a 33 or even a 55 gallon steel drum (I prefer steel, as it doesn't cave and get soft in heat) and it can function as a cyclone with a 4 inch hose, and only a few 4 inch pvc fittings.
Basically, you can do it for
None of the fine dust will get caught? Incorrect.
Can't have clear bin with cyclone system? Incorrect. Hell, I've seen people continue to use those bags.
I'd also be way more likely to kick up dust while working with a bag than a bin. Any wiggle of the bag will cause air movement through the bag, kicking up dust.
But you're definitely right about limiting airflow with a cyclone.
Half way though the video and so far none of your arguments hold water. I would go as far as saying that the arguments you are making against the other system are benefits not draw backs. Regardless if you use a Thein baffle or a cyclone, the amount of dust / chips you collect doesn't vary. If it goes into a collection tube it is going to be stored somewhere. So whether you empty an easy to empty bin that often has a lid on it, or you empty a plastic bag, you are still having to dispose of exactly the same amount of chips / dust.
Next point you went on about fine dust being trailed throughout the workshop. Have you ever tried to empty a floppy plastic bag that is very full? Firstly to release the bag is quite cumbersome, so the chances of spraying dust around the workshop is much higher that emptying a solid bin. On top of which the more dust that finds its way into your plastic bag the more often you are going to need to replace that expensive filter. If half of the fine dust is caught by the cyclone, that means that your filter is only going to be exposed to half of it, whereas your system is going to see 100% of it regardless.
Your point about the fire is a valid one, but there is nothing stops you putting a clear window in and metal / hard plastic container. So far you are yet to make a point not to use a cyclone or a Thein baffle.
You can use plastic bags with the cyclone drum by placing a liner that will keep the bag from lifting up. Removing and replacing the drum with the plastic bag is easier than replacing the filter bag. Also, you can gain significant power with your low-powered dust collector with the cyclone drum if you ditch the filter and vent outside but this will keep the dust collector single-stage as you are adding cyclone and removing the filter.
sounds good unless your trying to heat your shop.
I use a cyclone with no filters at all. The cyclone operates all the large particles, then into the impeller, and the exhaust is vented straight outside so there are no filters to clean.
My problem is the chunk or chips of wood everytime I use my jointer and planer it clogged the Port of my dust collector
Thanks for your knowledge...much appreciated
I have made m cyclone from long conical pot , old buckets, two beers cans and hot glue, I don't need to clean my shop vac every 30mins I do that once a day so it works just great
I’m in a mild Climate. I vent the Fine dust out through the wall. If you run through the Thein first, instead of the impeller first, NO SPARKS. Sparks almost ALWAYS come from metal hitting the impeller. I go from Thein/Barrel up to Impeller,(sans any metal),up through the impeller and out through exterior wall. Chips are chips. Whether in a Bag or a drum. You’re gonna produce the same quantity either way. I use a white plastic drum. I can SEE how much is in it. That entire “Trail of fine dust’ from the barrel is laughable. First you contend it catches none. Then say it leaves a trail of what it “won’t catch” Rather contradictory yes?
By the way, those filter Manufacturers recommend NOT using compressed air. It’s recommended to take them outside and use nothing stronger than a leaf blower. And those fabric Bag Filters are dust pumps. Pumping the Harmful stuff right at head height. I get using those VERY EXPENSIVE filters if you heat or air condition. Not a factor for me. Cheers
Hello Marcus. Thanks for watching. Too bad your comment was motivated to try and embarrass me with a correction driven with an insult. I can never put my head around what drives a person to choose that action as respectful.
Anyway, you tried to point out a contradiction but there isn't one. It is you who did not understand what everyone else clearly has understood of my clear statement. I said it's not going to catch the fine dust. The fine dust will continue on its merry way to the filter and clog it up. Where does the fine dust go after the filter starts to clog up and lose cyclone efficiency? Do you really need me to connect those dots any further? That's not contradictory sir. That's just science. So to answer your self-humored question of "Rather contradictory yes?" My answer is NO. It's also why none of the nearly 100K viewers made the same comment as yours. I didn't have to clarify every single angle of the situation. If I did, this video would be a 2 hour tortuous nightmare to watch!
Impeller sparks are far from the only way to get a fire going into the dust collector. Google smoke in table saw. Then think to yourself...."Hmmm...is that saw linked to my dust collector?" You get the rest.
Kudos to you. You are the select lucky few that do not need a filter since you blow the dust outdoors. I'd be a pig in you-know-what if I had that setup. hehe.
Keep on enjoying the outdoors with a cold one on hand. Cheers!
I want to switch over to an air filter and ditch the bag. What is the part number and brand on your air filter?
It looks like the Wynn Environmental filter, the part # is 35C222NANO.
Hey, Frank! 😃
What's going on Frankster?
Can you make a video showing how you mounted the motor to the wall?
I agree it’s better to leave a collector unmodified - the engineers designing these systems know what they are doing. I don’t necessarily agree with your opinion on 2-stage cyclone separators. I’ve had a 2hp cyclone from Grizzly (without after market modification ) attached to stationary duct system ( steel spiral pipe) for a bit better than 10 years and the entire system is excellent. More suction than I need for multiple tools and bin charges are as easy as a single stage system. Dust collection is a complex problem and every situation is different. There are far too many factors to design a one-size-fits-all solution. The important thing is to do your research for your given parameters and design a reasonable solution that fits your situation. Looks like you’ve done that for your shop and have a system that works for you - many many others have done the same and developed many many different solutions - some even include 2 stage cyclones 😀😀😀
Absolutely. We're in complete agreement. Systems designed with 2 stage filters do the job and do it right. I'm only addressing the modders out there. Grizzly's 2HP solution is likely a true 2HP. Unlike HF.
I killed two birds with one stone, for a smaller footprint than a standard setup. I have a Thein seperator with a bounce house blower mounted directly on top of it that blows it into a filter. The entire dust collector is DIY and pulls more air than a decent commercial dust collector. And being that its only a 25 gallon barrel, I can take the whole thing outside without getting any extra dust in the shop
Hello Paul. Thanks for watching and sharing your experience. Sounds like something you should be sharing as a video too!
magnets sound like a good idea! thanks
Your actually incorrect. An off the shelf small cyclone is mostly a waste of time for super fine particles below 2 microns, however industry regularly uses cyclones to remove very small particulates of say 3 microns and less with AMAZING results. What most do not realize is that the cyclone(s) must be optimized for what you are filtering. We have removed literal tons of superfine dust mostly 1 micron and below over years with no detectable dust in the hepa exhaust filter. So cyclones work fantastically - IF they are tuned to the dust they are to remove. Its a mathematical solution. Also few realize you can have more than one cyclone each tuned for a target dust size. A cyclone tuned and built correctly can easily remove particles almost any fiber filter will pass all day long. It is true, for the cost your can filter is a fast and easy option, however proper cyclones are absolutely more effective and your can filter will last years if not indefinitely.
Thanks for watching and commenting! I nearly agree with you in that it must be designed for the system not as an aftermarket. Aftermarket cyclones will always degrade the performance. It's just science. Having particular cycle designs for specific collection, as you noted, is interesting but in reality not simple for the average person to determine or calculate without a serious compromise. Having a dust collector without a 2nd stage is already a compromise. Why make it worse and lose collection power?
@@FranklyRustic True, however everything is a compromise, can, bag, bend in ducting, ducting at all….
In a straight cost-benefit the can is fine for exhaust dust. My point is most bag type dust collectors such as yours already uses cyclone separation (round metal bit in the middle is in fact a cyclonic seperator) - I’m saying toss that and replace with an efficient, tuned one - yes slightly more restriction traded for far higher performance translating into multiple filter / lung savings.
There are units tuned closer to dust from wood “playing”. There likely isn’t much cost difference over time but it is more expensive monetarily up front to add a competent cyclone, however better health conditions and lower can cost will be a better choice for some.
It’s all a compromise. If health is a concern and / or the higher initial cost isn’t an issue then cyclone wins. If you don’t care or have an open or outdoor shop or need least cost then can makes sense.
Regardless a huge factor that effects either is ducting, location of the collector and proper layout and install. It doesn’t matter what is at the end of it if the ducting leaks like a sieve.
Great channel and video btw
A lot depends on what material you are working and which machine .. a thicknesser 2 stage is great for example, lot of shavings
I'm curious now.
I have a shop vac I want to use for a dust collection system. The bags they have for shoo vacs are small and expensive, so my solution was to get a hepa filter and hepa bags for it, and then add a cyclone before the vacuum. That would take out most of the dust that takes up space in the vacuum bags and save me money on clogging up the bag and filter with big dust that the cyclone can grab.
Now, for you'll setup, what you say makes perfect sense. You can't really use a bag in the cyclone or it'd just get sucked into the vacuum line. And the way they make it, the dust collector is kind of its own cyclone (just letting the heavy stuff fall and the light stuff follow the air up to the filter pleats.
So, do you think the cyclone would help a shop vac system? Just to make the big stuff not clog up the filter and bag?
Shop vacs have far higher suction power but lower air flow than a dust collector. With that, a shop vac will always benefit using a cyclone. The suction power will reduce but neglectable to the suction power it is designed with.
If a shop vac serves you well, you should be fine upgrading it to a cyclone. Though I can not vouch for that 100% as I do not know your setup to confirm. But if you feel the suction power is far more than sufficient, then you will not lose in the performance reduction inherited from a cyclone addition.
Thanks for watching and chiming in!
Best,
Frank
I have a Fein dust extractor and made an adapter to put a 5-gallon bucket and Dustopper on it. It's been on there a few years and I haven't had to empty the filter bag yet.
Excellent point, Frank. Thank you.
While I appreciate the concern about cutting a nail or something causing a spark which could burn the shop down, I mostly use clean wood now from reputable lumber sources. The Thein baffle separator has kept my impeller on my dust collector from getting any large chips hitting it so I’m happy with what I have setup.
Um, am I the only one wondering how the Brannock device (on the wall to the left) fits into all this? Frank's clearly getting better airflow because he knows his shoe size better than other channels. Watch and learn folks.
Thanks for the alternate point of view!
LOL! Thank you for watching and chiming in Brandon. Very few people know what that device is actually called. The last person to comment about it was a shoe salesman when he was younger.
I have it mounted as a tribute to my dad. A stone sculpturer that came to America for a better life but couldn't find work at the time and fortunately got into the shoe repair business and put us all through college.
Looks like you just created this account of yours today. Welcome.
No, you are not. :)
Great advice Frank. The is nothing as rare as common sense. I have tried all of the same things you mentioned from separators to donuts and I am back to canister , original bags, and magnets. My system has never worked better. The dust that we really should be worried about is the really fine stuff that doesn't get picked up by the dust collector. Solutions, and there are many, to this problem is where the money should be spent. Thanks Frank!
You bring up some good points, but I don't think a cyclone separator of some type is absolutely unnecessary.
You are correct, that a separator will degrade your airflow, but some designs are better than others. There are some videos out there that show that the degradation is not half. I think it's somewhere in the 25%-40% range. If you're starting with a 1200 cfm system, the best design will likely result in around 900 cfm. That's still more than adequate for any woodworking machine.
I recently purchased the Dust Right 750, from Rockler. Using an anemometer, I'm only getting about 500 cfm at the inlet. My original intention was to add a separator. If I got the advertised cfm from this unit, a good separator would have left me with over 550 cfm, which would have been adequate for my purposes. But since I'm only starting with 500, I'm not going to bother with the separator.
As far as fine dust collection, you're right. A separator isn't going to get the "fine" dust. In theory, anything heavier than air will get collected in your separator and the finest of dust will make it into your filter. There's no getting around the finer dust from getting to your filter, no matter what kind of set up you have. If you have sufficient cfm to start with, a separator will prevent the heavier dust from making it to your filter, as well as keeping the larger chips from damaging or clogging the impellor of your dust collector.
There are ways of dealing with emptying the collection barrel of a cyclone separator. There are plenty of videos showing ways that woodworkers have made it easy and minimized the mess. So, I wouldn't make that the biggest knock on a separator. The Grizzly Growler separator has an air hose that connects to the collection barrel, to equalize the pressure, so you can add a bag to the collection barrel, making the emptying task much cleaner and efficient. One could do the same with their homemade system. I've seen other videos of ways of making a bag in the dust collection barrel possible.
As for your fire hazard example, if you're running wood through your table saw with nails in it, you've got bigger problems than not being able to see into your collection barrel. Even then, there are videos of how to create a "window" so you can see into your collection barrel.
The only downside to using a cyclone separator is the degradation of airflow. However, if your system is starting above 1000 cfm, a good separator will not degrade the airflow enough to make it a concern. Everything else you mentioned can be dealt with so that you can get all the benefits that a separator offers.
Thanks Woodnoober. However, the point of a dust collector is to make the filter last longer, "perform better", increase the longevity of the fan blades, make cleanup a breeze, and some would desperately say that you'll save money on bags.
If the demographic of most woodworking subscribers are professionals with a true workshop, your points hold full weight. However, my opinion is towards the community of the home, weekend, or aspiring woodworker. These subscribers would likely have more money added to their power tools before upgrading their dust collection to a true high volume dust collector and the 2HP Harbor Freight dust collector is not one of them. Even at its touted 1500 CFM spec. You don't need an anemometer to confirm this. Simply visit a friend's shop or any woodshop where they have something "comparable" to the HF 2HP DC, such as the Jet series, and notice how much stronger they are at substantially less rated CFM (like 1100 CFM). The degradation of airflow can be quite substantial with a separator on an already weaker machine. I've certainly noticed a remarkable difference. Enough to make this exhaustively long video on it. hehehe.
Cleanup is a big pain. Unless you reserved substantial space for the dust collector (no one at home typically can nor will) and make a special LID system and bucket on casters, the effort is regretable in most situations. Unless you really have generous room, and poured an enormous amount of time into making the ultimate solution. This is where an aspiring woodworker can fall into a trap. Many videos, these days, skip the woodworking altogether and show you have to mod your shop leaving the noob to spend countless hours trying to be current with their equipment.
I've only seen one video from a leading youtuber point out the recommendation of the view window in the collecting barrel and it is over 5 years old and the recommendation is to make some 6" tall window. Not ideal. I have noted the nail scenario and I wouldn't dismiss it just because "you've got bigger problems..." as you noted. Nails can rear their ugly head for many reasons... Pour job examining the stock...Hidden nail in the growth of firewood (too deep to detect)... or just sloppy at the task. However, I would not be honest if I did not confess burning stock while ripping with a blade so dull that the table saw had saw dust smoldering in the cavity. That happened twice. Once from a pitch ridden blade and another time rushing from a Dado to a regular blade but installed in reverse! Luckily the smolder only took place inside the table saw.
A dust collector with its stock bag will be the easiest to deal with and you will get to leverage its full strength rather than "just enough". 5 minutes to swap out and your done!
@@FranklyRustic I would argue the point of a dust collector is to keep as much dust out of your working environment as possible. The point of a separator is to keep as much dust out of the filter as possible.
I think the price of the HF 2 hp unit makes it quite attractive to the weekend woodworker. It's a great starting point. If all you did was add the Winn filter, you'd be ahead of the game, price-wise, when compared to a similar Jet or Grizzly unit, for example. The footprint of the HF unit is not so bad, but I agree with you that someone working out of part of their garage is not going to have the room for it. In that case, if they were looking to use something more than just a shop vac, their only option is something in the sub-1000 cfm range and yes, a cyclone separator would certainly be a handicap when it comes to airflow.
Having said that, I get about 120 cfm at the end of the hose from my shop vac. When I add the Dustopper, it's down to about 80. If you were to take a 650 cfm dust collector and add an Oneida, even if you ended up with 300 cfm, you're much better off than the shop vac.
Certainly, there are trade-offs that everyone has to consider for themselves.
For myself, I only plan to use my new dust collector for my table saw and router table. I don't own a planer or a jointer so the type of waste going through my dust collector is not going to damage the impellor.
For someone who has a planer and doesn't have the space for a larger DC, they would be well served with a 650 cfm unit and a separator. They're not going to have the power to be able to support a whole shop full of duct work, but they will save their cheap impellor from the larger chips generated by their planer.
Everybody's situation is different. Whether it's the size of their shop, the kind of projects they work on or their budget. To say absolutely that a cyclone separator is a bad idea is bad advice.
@@awlthatwoodcrafts8911 Advice is exactly what I am conveying. Through experience using home built cyclones AND a well known cyclone I purchased and used. I am shedding my experience. If it is doubted, I trust the community to dismiss my rant and try for themselves. However, I am forewarning MY experience in a small shop that is under regular busy use. I am not exactly knocking the HF DC. Heck I clearly own it! But I am not going to preach its value with a cyclone when its a bad pairing in my experience. If you disagree, that's completely fair. But I am not going heed to your claim of my opinion being "Bad advice". I have claimed the equipment I have connected my DC to and I have expressed my experience. Your mileage may vary. A shop vac, or any system under 1000 CFM is not going to cut it for a cabinet saw, planer, or jointer. Add a cyclone to a 2HP HF DC and I assure you, chips and dust will built up in your saws and planers, whether it's a home built cycle or some "deputy" model. If the viewer's setup is similar to mine, I am explaining an opinion for the sake of safety, time, money, and expectations. Some people don't mind lugging drums outdoors to clean out. I will stick to my setup and blow out my filter, change out my bag, and resume work while the cycloners enjoy dumping barrels of wood glitter outside into another bag. Always a fun task in the winter months when woodworking is at its prime.
Does that Rockler product state anywhere in the documentation that you might not get the full 750? I would be ok with a + or - 10% variance but 750 advertised and 500 reality? I've looked at Rockler DC and may reconsider if that is the case.
@@DavidMcCabe, not that I know of. In Bill Pentz' writings, he talks about the various ways manufacturers arrive at their CFM ratings. Some are theoretical, based on motor HP, impellor size, RPM, etc., while some are actually measured.
The problem I had trying to measure the CFM on mine is that the inlet isn't just a simple opening. The edges are rounded over and there are two pieces that cross the opening. So, while the inside diameter of the inlet may be 4", the opening really isn't. If I estimate an actual opening of say, 3.85", then the calculated CFM is around 475.
It was a bit disappointing to measure it at 500 (using 4" as the opening size), but it will still work for what I want to use it for and the footprint fits my space very well.
I'm sure 90% of the buyers of dust collection systems don't take the time to measure the airflow of what they buy. I bought an anemometer so I could know what my shop vac set up was producing and then to measure the airflow of whatever DC solution I bought and set up. Knowing that I only get around 500 CFM from my unit, I will likely not add a separator, which will reduce the airflow more than it already is.
For the money you can spend on a DC system, an extra $30 on an anemometer is a whole lot better than, "I'm willing to bet...", when it comes to measuring the airflow. Just because you believe it, doesn't mean it's true.
My solution: First a good powerful shop vac (1600W). It has a bypass motor so dust laden air won’t clog the armature. I will be fitting a cyclone to capture everything except the finest dust. It needs only a basic filter to protect the intake since the vac’s air outlet goes to a plate fixed to the window fan light….so the fine dust is all going outside rather than into my small work area!
Glad I saw this before upgrading my system. Saved me money and time. Thanks much
You make some good comments and observations, but still feels like you’re missing the point. I want the cyclone separation for two huge reasons: I want to vent the fine micro dust right out of my workshop, outside, and skip the damn filters and worrying about microns. Also, I want that trash can (and the motor) outside my workshop, in the shed, where it is easy to dump in the compost heap or whatever in the open air. Is safety and fire a concern? Sure, but I think you’re overstating the importance of a clear bag. If a bad spark gets very far in the tube then you’re already at risk of an EXPLOSION hazard much more than a smoldering fire in the bag.
I would love to just blow it outside and just as you said, not deal with filters. However, the amount of CFMs running will pull much of the heated shop air right outside in the winter and kick on the room heater to compensate. Yes, the room is full of equipment considered to hold the warmth. However, the room will cool down temporarily and trigger your thermostat’s call-for-heat. This used to be less of care until today’s heating prices changed that. I guess if you are fortunate to be in a wood heated space, it would be less of an issue. However, the loss of heat is the number one hold-back for most shop owners.
If you’re somewhere, like San Diego, more power to you!
Btw, suggesting to wear warmer clothes isn’t so much the issue. I like my shop running at a comfortable temperature for the sake of the equipment and wood. When it comes to equipment like the bandsaw and it’s rubber-lined wheels, I tend to find the variance of tension annoying when the room is cold. Without heat, my shop has been as low as upper 30’s.
Problem is my planer makes large chips and I don’t see why they won’t clog my impeller if I don’t have a separator before the impeller.
I have neither bag nor filter. With a cyclone almost all dust is captured (without significant pressure loss). What is left can be directed outside the shop. I have done this for a couple of years, and there is no evidence of dust around the exhaust port. No cleaning required. Superior extraction, no cost, less space required, no clogging, no fine dust escaping the filter.
The reason you are not getting fine dust removal is that you have a HVLP extractor- a LVHP extractor gives a velocity that allows cyclonic separation.
Pressure loss through a cyclone can only happen if it is woefully undersized. Even a brand new filter will cause more pressure loss than a correctly sized cyclone.
Curious… do you notice a change in temperature in the shop when blowing everything outside. I would love to go that route in the future, if it doesn’t affect the shops temperature much. I heat the shop in the winter with electric heat so I don’t want it working too hard if the DC is bringing down the room temp. The shop is about 550 sqft. Some Woodworking influencers claim it will drop the temp considerably. But I only use the DC for about 1 to 5 minutes at a time on average. Maybe about 10 minutes total per hour. If that’s negletable, it might be my next upgrade after the filter has had its lifespan exhausted (another lucky pun). I would likely keep the exhaust pointing downward to a specially rigged open container so not to use a separator at all and not have a mess outside either.
@@FranklyRustic If you live in an adverse climate it may be a consideration- but it is not hard to construct a heat exchanger. Basically one tube inside another, the exhaust goes down the inner tube and the replacement air is drawn through the outer. Metal foil tube (as used for domestic extractors for bathrooms) for the inner, thick polythene for the outer. Whole system like that used for air-change in low carbon houses.
It may not be needed- your extractor is probably at least 2hp - that is 1.5kW of heating (it all ends up as heat) when it is on...
Try to do this when it's -15C outside and your vac can replace all of air in your shop in 3 min's ...
@@matikaevur6299 See my comments on heat exchangers. However, things may not be as hopeless as you suspect. I checked a common 4" dust extractor- it is rated at 186 m3 per hour. That is ~20 sec per m3. 1 kW will heat 1m3 by slightly more than 1C per second. So 20deg for the extracted amount. Your -15C air would be heated to 25C by 2kW. Some of that may come from the extractor itself, plus the machine tool being used. To me, a small price to pay. Most of us live in a less adverse climate. Each has to balance the advantages of total extraction dust control against any heating/cooling energy requirements. In my case it is a clear win.
How to tell if a dust collector is hvlp or lvhp? For example a 1100cfm Grizzly 1029 2HP (the older, green model)... someone is selling one and asking $150
What if you don't have the ROOM for such a beefy dust collector? I built a cyclone with 4" ports, and will add a fine particle filter to it.
Hello Steve. Thanks for watching. Space is the number one challenge when upgrading to a dust collector. If you’re already moving forward with the cyclone solution, see what you can do to ensure you have some reasonable CFMs pulling from the motor/impeller. Maybe you are just fine with what you have. Hard to say without knowing your setup.
You say a cyclone won’t collect fine dust but then claim that moving a cyclone bin spreads fine dust around the workshop??
Some of the dust that is heavy enough to follow into the bin, are still light enough to be a mess. To see it in action, close the lights in the shop and clear out the bin with a portable flashlight and you'll see what I am referring to.
How does your system reduce the risk of fire?
He said you can see snoke in bag or fire.
Okay, for me those bags suck! My trash can has a liner so I don't need to "lug" any drum anywhere. I do agree about the canister filters, they are great, but so is my cyclone.
nice thing about a separator is it protects the impeller on the motor. Using the traditional bag system the impeller is not protected. If you accidently suck up a tool a nut a bolt etc etc or even a chuck of wood. can you think of a way to protect the impeller on a bag system?
Sounds like you are describing a shop vac or a commercial grade DC. If your dust collector can suck up a tool, then you are not using an underpowered dc as noted in the title of this video. You must be using a properly designed cyclone separator for your commercial grade DC
@@FranklyRustic Its a 2hp Jet bag type dust collector. I got it for 150 on Marketplace. Im trying to decide if I should put a cyclone on it or run it as is. it can pull a nut or bolt into it, or a small metal tool, I bet it could. Im not going to try it. Its very strong! I want to protect my impeller. Its the only reason Im consdering a separator. I thought of putting a 1/4" grid over the input but I wonder how much that will block airflow.
@@ScreamingEagleFTW so not to disrupt the suction power, take the nut and/or tool and anchor it securely to something outside of the system with a strong twine so that it doesn’t travel far when/if sucked in. See if it gets sucked in. Please note, you do this at your own risk. This is just a suggestion. A 2hp Jet is quite a beast compared to a 2hp Harbor freight. The HArbor Freight 2HP motor is more like a 1HP motor so I imagine your suction power is sweet.
One more thing…$150 for a 2hp JET!??? You lucky dog.
@@FranklyRustic I did good? Its an older model but runs perfect as far as I can tell. Everyone says to do a cyclone but I thought it would be stronger without a cyclone and then I saw your video and thats what confirmed it for me. My only concern is protecting the impeller. Maybe some kind of grid in the inlet. I dont know.
Thank you, I was online shopping for a sealable barrel and crossed this video 😂 Total saved my day!
I have a story from when i worked with painting steel things.
We had a steel pellet blaster machine that prepaired the surface.
They rebuilt the duct work and filter thing. Put on a ground wire, but didnt double check that what they grounded it to was in itself grounded. So.. one day a spark happened and things started burning. And because it was full of rust, steel and aluminum powder it started of a thermite reaction. That was an experience i will never forget
What if my collector is on floor horizontally and only have the stock 5 micron bag filter? Does all this still apply?
Having taught woodshop for 24 years, I would like to add some FACTS about the hazards of sawdust and fires. One summer vacation, one of my school's maintenance people used my school's woodshop's new belt/disc sander on some metal. The sparks started a fire in the shops vacuum system (with the in-ground commercial vacuum system running). Fortunately, they were still in the shop when they smelled the smoke. They disconnected the vacuum hose, dumped water down the inground piping and were able to put the fire out. I only discovered the this when I returned after summer vacation and found the woodshop's new burnt-up belt/disc sander outside behind the shop. As for the fine sawdust, it can and is explosive when suspended in the air at the right concentrations. Furthermore, this fine dust can stay suspended in the air for up to three days! Sawdust is now classified as a health hazard and is known to cause severe breathing and health issues. People, PLEASE take sawdust hazards seriously.
That's where a good air filter/scrubber comes in handy. Suck up as much fine dust as you can with the collector system and filter the rest from the air with a separate unit.
I am sporting a rather nasty sinus infection as we speak because I was in a hurry to get some sanding done and didn't wear my PPE
What do you consider underpowered? I’m fixing to set up a dust system on my 14 x 32 building. Have about 8 machines. Table saw, joiner, planer, band saw, scroll saw, miter station, spindle sander and belt sander. Drill press
I use my dust collector only for the table saw, jointer-planer combo, router table, and miter saw. I use a dust extractor for everything else.
Proof is in the pudding so to speak, dust collection is all about CFM at the machine and air quality. Everything that impacts the CFM is detrimental to the effectiveness of the system. Bad plumbing, excessive hoses, leaks, are all reducing the effectiveness of the system (friction). Likewise anything that adds back-pressure to the blower does the same thing, such as a clogged filter, full bag, bad plumbing etc (friction). Essentially checking your system for efficiency is the most effective way to operate it. If you chose to put in a 'scrubber' in front of the blower fine, but the impact on suction at the machine is really what we want and clean air. Thanks for the video and your thoughts. Ultimately an Anemometer and current on the motor determines what works best. I love seeing everyone's mod's for the system, it always drives improvement and of course discussion!
Looking at what you've created why not leave the original system as is and just add the upgraded filter? I see that you reduced the amount of flex from the motor housing but other than that it's the original system in a different configuration??
Hello @Belg1970. Excellent question.
I lost the original setup after years of trying different separator mods (Cyclone, Thein, etc...). I shortened the flex at the time to support the previous setups. So now its that "tight" of an assembly as just a result of experimentation.
However, if you kept the original setup and just upgraded the filter, you would be in the same setup as mine but more portable as the entire assembly would be on a cart.
Thanks for watching!
Cheers,
Frank
I was looking into getting a cyclone, but I am glad I watched your video first. I'm worried most about the fine dust because I don't do enough woodworking to even fill one of those bags each year. Definitely going to just get a canister filter and call it good. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for saving me a few hundred $'s. I've got a 1.5HP Jet Dust Dog and a Jet cyclone lid for a 35 gal garbage can...maybe just eliminate my cyclone and get the motor on the wall...never thought the cyclone did much anyway, unless using the planer...and OOOH what a PITA to get the can out with 5 lbs of elbows and blast gates hanging all over the place!
I have the same setup as you for my 2 garage shop but I'm going to be moving to a 30x40 shop. I have about $2500 set aside for a dust collector, what would you recommend? I really appreciate the honesty of this video
Hello Charles. Thank you! I appreciate the compliment. Congrats on your upcoming upgrade! That's going to be sweet. What type of equipment are we hooking up to the future Dust Collector? If you've set $2,500 aside for the DC, I'm more intrigued on the other toys! hehehe. Clearly, you'll want something 3HP to 5HP. With space like that, I imagine you'll be spinning up jointers and planers throughout the day. If that's the case and you have that much space, I can totally see a DC with a cyclone system being helpful. Particularly when the cyclone comes as part of the unit as that means the motor and air flow is made to meet the needs of the job at hand. Honestly, I can't offer you advice on which one to buy. However, I've always leaned towards a JET product when I daydream (hehe). The Jet 3HP with Cyclone is a nice start. So much power that you might not need blast gates if you're just hooking up to three units. Sorry I can't give you a solid recommendation. A great place for solid advice is a forum like the lumberjocks or sawmillcreek. Many big timers running large shops but humble enough to spare time for valueable advice can be found there. Good luck to you!
Because I responded quickly, just before dinner, I just want add that I was recommending the cyclone given the fact that you are upgrading your shop and willing to pay more for the properly engineered combination of the cyclone solution. The use of the cyclone will still pose a risk of undetected hazards such as a fire if precautions are made and safety continuously respected, unless the unit provides an integrated viewport of the container and bag holder in the drum. If you're able to drop $2500 on the DC, changing out bags is still going to be the safer, cleaner, and quicker route in my opinion. (But some do have a bag holder in the drum so that point may be moot). You'll go through more bags if you are mainly operating a planer or jointer but not so much on drum sanders, table saws, miter saws, and band saws. I would say, consider the cyclone if you know you will be filling up the DC very fast with chunks. Otherwise, stick with the bag systems as it's the finer dust you will mainly be collecting. A great solution such as the Grizzly 3HP dual bag/dual cartridge filter system would be my second recommendation.
Please note, my advice is roughly estimating your setup since you said it's similar to mine but I am not aware of the type of work you mainly perform in your shop. You're budget puts you in a position to choose the best solution out there to your work conditions.
I've got the Oneida V-3000 cyclone system (3 hp.) in my shop and highly recommend it. Haven't had any fires as of yet.
@@FranklyRustic Excellent answers! A "properly engineered combination of the cyclone solution" is what we all should get, but very few people have the knowledge and instruments to study air flow and pressure drops in their setup to properly size the collectors, cyclone, propeller size and motor power. So the best solution is to buy an integrated system that was well engineered at the factory. But it still must match your collection system pressure drops.
As for fire, a few fire detector units placed strategically leeward of the air flow will comfortably warn you without you having to become a paranoid wreck about that. Just remember to change the batteries...
@@rogerbritus9378 That's an awesome recommendation.
Great i just built a 55 gal separater lol
loose 20% of the CFM , still worth doing
I'm sure a cyclone steals CFM. But I am so happy with my blower mounted on top of super dust deputy and canister filter. Emptying the bin is a breeze.
I don't use any duct work. My shop is small. I would like to see your duct work set up.
thanks. i am buying a new unit and I think you convinced me. I'll stay stock with the upgraded canister filiter.
Cheers.
There's cyclone separators and then there's cyclone separators. I'd recommend a thorough read of Bill Pentz research.
Hi. Quite a rabbit hole you went down on this one huh? I'm happy for you that many appreciate your posting the video and the information provided. I see it as one man's opinion based on his experience. Speaking of opinion, I'd like yours on this: I am running a Delta 1.5 hp with cloth bag (how embarrassing). The unit is in the garage, not in the shop. I was planning to buy the HF 2hp unit AND a cartridge filter. Somewhere in your replies to comments you said the HF unit, though 2 hp, is more like 1hp. If you were me would you get the HF unit and a cartridge filter or just add the cartridge filter to the Delta unit? Thanks
Lol. Down the rabbit hole indeed.
Hmmm. A Delta with a 1 1/2 HP motor? I’m betting it outperforms the HF 2hp. I’m betting the propeller is larger in diameter on the Delta too. I’d definitely stay with the Delta and upgrade to a filter cartridge on it.
@@FranklyRustic Thank you for your response and suggestion. Be safe in the shop!
My two stage with a cyclone works great. Don't see the problem??? Maybe you need to try a better design.
have been thinking about upgrading to a proper dust collection system. at present I only have a shop vac hooked to a Duststopper. I normally check the filter to see how bad it is every time the bucket gets full and if it needs blown out also. It usually need blown out about every other time. The fine stuff is getting through and clogging it no matter what, so why do I need the piece in the way reducing the suction
If you get your system sized up properly so that an optimal air speed passes through the cyclone, then it can collect almost all dust - leaving very little to your filter down the line. But very few people have the knowledge and instruments to study air flow and pressure drops in their setup to properly size the collectors, cyclone, propeller size and motor power.
The bucket-to-Dustopper joint must be totally leakproof in the long term under all operating conditions in order to achieve optimum separation of fine dust.
A deformable hard-plastic bucket cannot seal totally airtight against a hard-plastic Dustopper in the long term under all operating conditions. Some kind of compressible, elastic, conformable, proven gasket must be added.
You can tightly wrap the circumference of the rim joint with a continuous length of thin-film kitchen cling wrap, which will then be visibly sucked inward and thereby seal the leaks at the rim. No leakage at this joint can be tolerated if optimum separation is desired.
But my DC's bag is opaque and cant see through it it anyway. Plus when i install this filter, I also cant see through it? I'mconfused. so the fire hazard can still be present? I thought separating big chunks and items like nails would actually be for fire safety reasons too? Im a beginner so im trying to learn.
Hello Carl. Thank for watching and chiming in!
Your collection bag is opaque? That's new to me. I've never seen such a bag. Definitely swap that out for a clear bag in the future when it's full. It will be easier to see the status of the fill level of the bag as well as any other concerns.
Cyclone separators are not safer. Some may argue that point saying that it prevents clogging their dust collector. Well that means the separator is supporting bad technique when using a jointer or planer. You see, if they are running their planers to the point that they are clogging the Dust Collector, then they are using their equipment dangerously wrong and should back off of the amount of material to remove per pass. It'll be safer on you (less snipes and flying stock), make for cleaner passes, and longer life to the blades.
Cheers,
Frank
@@FranklyRustic Yea my Dc isnt exactlylike yours. it just has one bag attached to it for collection. ITs a fabric bag, 2 microns. But I want to get as close to 1 micron and less as possible. So I thought of the filter. You have your filter on top and then a clear bag underneath. If I install a filter there wouldnt be a bag under it. Do I need it? Cant everything just stay in the filter? but then again, the filter isnt see-through so same problem. I get what youre saying about making large passes and taking off too much chunky material. YEah I agree thats not good but my fear is mistakenly sucking up nails or screws that are laying around and not realizing it. The cyclone would pick those up and not send them to the DC.
@@carlcarlssen4299 Ah ha. You are referring to Harbor Freight's 1HP single filter bag that acts as the collection bag as well. That is actually the least common Dust Collector. My apologies for not catching on at first.
Ok. The only way to improve that system is unfortunately the same way to ruin its performance as HF's claim of 1HP is more like 1/2HP. Just like my 2HP is more like a typical 1HP unit.
If you plan to have that unit connected to only one machine, the use of a cyclone separator is your best bet and you will be fine going that route. However, If you plan to connect multiple machines to that 1HP unit and have blast gates here and there, along with multiple pipe paths, then I highly advise you see how affective it is with the additional piping and blast gates before you proceed with a cyclone. The cyclone addon will dramatically cut down the performance. If a Harbor Freight 2HP barely gets by with a cyclone with a manifold of blastgates, then a 1HP is just going to fail.
@@FranklyRustic Yeah its the bag that acts as a collection bag and filter. 2 microns. But being a dust freak I want as close to 0.1-0.2 mircons as possible so a 1 micron filter is what im trying to get at. The cyclone method ive heard also acts as an air filtration in away and I'm confused about this one, many claim it actually improves suction dramatically. But some say the opposite, like youre saying too. I definitely wouldnt want less suction as my DC is not even that powerful to begin with.
@@carlcarlssen4299 , that's exactly the hullabaloo I hate to hear spread around and pull hard earned money out of the pockets of hard working people. That claim is either paid marketing BS or a bunch of poor saps who can't admit they've been cheated and don't want to be alone in the mistake. Believe science and believe what you see as a consensus. If cyclone's magically made a vacuum pull more powerfully without any additional power to the motor, then believe me when I say that every make and model of a Dust Collector would come with a cyclone. That would be quite the feat of science!
As you already admitted, the 1HP Harbor Freight DC is not all that strong. It's meant to be more portable for a single machine. Not as a central dust collection system.
I do not know your how your shop is setup but shop vacs have their place in a shop too. My belt and discs sanders, CNC, and router table, all benefit from a shop vac far better than a Dust Collector.
Dust Collectors/Extractors can move a lot of air volume while a Shop Vac has higher suction power. A shop vac can't suck up a bolt while a DC can not. A DC can handle a lot of dust and chips at once, like a planer or jointer, while a shop vac will choke rather quickly.
There are some great articles on the web explaining when to use one over the other.
Don't underestimate the available filters for shop vacs. Some are .5 microns!
As for your goal to be around .1 to .2 microns... Realistically this is a failed goal. There will always be leakage in the hose fittings and there will always be some exposure to dust, even briefly when cleaning out any dust collecting system. Tools are never designed with ports to catch all of the dust. Some are darn close but you would need a really big budget for that. Festool is a start but for .1 to .2 microns, being applicable throughout the collection system and the tools themselves, will put a college tuition to the challenge in comparison to the costs of the equipment.
Some advice...Get a great mask to work with. Get a couple of air filters running in the shop (they are a game changer). From time to time, take a air hose to the shop and blow everything into the air and run the air filters along with two box fans stacked at the egress door or some windows. Preferably during warmer times of the year.
Hope that helps. Cheers!
Hi….because this is your preference my friend, all those examples you gave are good but catching fire is far fetch. You are giving a lot of excuses because you Prefer not to use a cyclone. I’m pretty sure that there are a lot of woodworkers out there not using cyclone because they prefer it or not in their budget. I myself didn’t use cyclone for a long time until recently and tell you what it made a big difference for me. Dragging containers to dump leaves dust trail sounds to me a personal issue. Having a cyclone can make your dust collector impeller last longer like others mentioned. Your setup was just like mine no cyclone and I had to clean out my filter (which is no fun for me and my neighbors) more times than having a cyclone installed.
Thanks for watching. I've noted my experience after using several variations of cyclone collection. It's after experience with several variations that I have come up with the conclusion that it is not worth the substantial loss of power.
Catching fire is far fetched? No sir. I believe you are just perpetuating the popular woodworking fact about micro gas-like-dust being able to combust from a static spark only if the rare circumstance presence itself. That's not what I am talking about at all. I am talking about burning embers making its way in to an opaque collection bin from a short collection path due to a small shop... Not a commercial shop. Impossible you think? Really? Do yourself a favor and Google "smoldering smoke in table saw". A very common situation. Then consider the mods people are doing to their saws and dust collectors due to the TH-cam community. I don't need to connect the dots any further.
As for propeller life... I've used my jointer and planer endlessly with no destruction (nor degradation) to the propeller. However, my dust collector has clogged and choked many times with a cyclone separator in place due to the reduction of suction power. That's just science. Not myth.
Yes...This is my scenario...and my experience. With the growth of population, many share my setup, experience, and opinion. It's those people I am helping. Not everyone. Particularly not a commercial environment and particularly not a product predesigned to use a dust collector. Those do it right...just as they were originally designed and engineered for.
All good though. I do genuinely appreciate you watching and chiming in professionally. Cheers!
Agreed I feel the cyclone is a gimmick not sure why you need to separate the larger chips drop straight into the bag anyway
insightful !
Great video. Thanks
Thank you! I suspected this!
How often to you have to clean or replace that big filter
I clean mine with a leaf blower about once a month.
I use a cyclone because if i dont big pieces plug up the vac intake.
i think he is talking about big dust collectors not shop vacs
@@mountainpup9750 My harbor freight 2hp motor has cross pieces on the intake and shavings get caught on them. i thought about cutting them out but if something got thru it would damage the motor.
why don’t more people
skip the filter, pipe directly outside…?
My shop is in the basement. My shop's vent would be about 8 feet from my HVAC Condenser. Also, exterior discharge would make the shop have a negative pressure and cause the AC from the rest of the house to be pulled down into the basement. And that would cause the air from outside the house to be pulled into the upstairs living spaces.
I don't agree, but this is America so that's cool.
Good info, thanks. I have a similar collector and have put the 1 micron filter on as well. I see how you mounted your motor/blower assembly on the wall, real nice and I think I'll so the same so I can shorten that hose. My question is given the original design is for a horizontal orientation, what you think the effect might be on the bearings now that they are vertical?
Fail, overheat and start a fire. Lol