It's not until you start trying to make old cartridges that you see the cross over between ammuntion and fireworks. Needle gun cartridges for the Dreyse and Chassepot are all based on the paper, glue and string methods that have been used by firework makers for centuries. It is not until the mid 19th C when mass production metal forming technology appears do things change..
Chap I love your esoteric video subject matter. I find it so interesting and captivating. It’s always a great day when we get a long video like your deep dive on the Milbank-Amsler and making it’s ammunition. Love it all! Keep up the great work.
Morning my Dear Chap.. I also have had all sorts of problems getting the Langblei bullet to stabilise.. I use paper strip sabots formed in a press in the way described by the Wests. Even with slitting the sabot the performance is very variable with significant numbers of "brummers" (tumbling bullets). Getting sabots to separate cleanly has always been an issue with sabot ammunition, and it took years to get APDS and APFSDS to work properly. A couple of things I have been trying: 1. Varnishing the inside and front end of the sabot. There is evidence that this was done with Prussian ammunition, presumably to stop the glue in the sabot sticking to the bullet. Results have been "variable", but I really need to do some more extensive firing trials. 2. Blocking the path between the primer and the base of the bullet. As my sabots are rolled, you get a hole down the centre of the sabot which will allow gas to get from the pierced primer to the base of the bullet at the point of ignition. I have a suspicion that this can cause the bullet to become unseated from the sabot in the barrel. I have been blocking the hole with resin putty (Acraglas gel) which seems to improve the performace. I notice that you have a hole down the centre of your plastic sabots which may be an issue! I have been tempted by the German plastic sabots, however these are for the M47 "Acorn" bullet rather than the M55 Langblei "egg" bullet. Having spent good money on an M55 mould, I really want to get these to work properly. The M47 sabots look like they are injection moulded, so are not easy to do on a small scale. Perhaps 3D printing is a solution, but I am not convinced the plastic would survive long enough...! The M47 bullet is also full calibre unlike the M55 which does not touch the rifling. I think this keeps the bullet well seated on the sabot despite any back pressure from the primer cavity... I have had good results with the M41 round ball bullets which I make from .615 balls that I use in my Ferguson Carbine. I also use paper strip sabots with these and have shot well out to 200m. I cannot hit anything much with the M55.. so far!
There is no issue with gas blow-by through the sabot. The hole in my Delrin sabot is simply for knocking out the primer as its recessed and a very tight fit in the pocket. The primer is a Berdan primer so the needle doesn't pierce it when firing (in fact it bends the needle a bit, need to trim it back). The M47 sabots are indeed injection moulded but I think I could easily cut a groove in the bases of mine to emulate the skirt principle. I just nee to see what shape they have.
@@thebotrchap I keep forgetting you are in the land of Berdan! That makes more sense! I have some but they are jealously hoarded for recapping ancient cases on high days and holidays! They are like rocking horse poo in UK! I use top hat percussion caps with the skirt cut off.. the metal is very thin and the needles penetrate every time.. I have a holder for the lathe and I can turn them off with surprising ease.. I look forward to hearing about your sabot skirting in due course! Thank you for the drawing of the M-A ramrod.. I am in mid production!
Have you tried just using a round wood base and then a wax mold to seat the bullet. Take one of your MDF sabots. file of 2~4mm at the base. Take some hot glue and make a mold out of that. Then take wax/candle-wax and make the bullet holder. In the bottom 2~4mm you will still need wood to be the explosion plug, but that should be just enough to push the wax forward. Of course, i don't know how horrible your rifling will be, but this was one solution we had for our Belgian Revolution reproduction weapons (smooth bore) that actually worked nicely.
3D printed sabots come to mind as a possible quick and easy solution. You could try a whole variety of plastics easily and they cost next to nothing to produce with minimal effort. I also had an idea involving paper mache pressed in a machined form, but that sounds like more trouble than it's worth frankly.
An easy aid to the conversion of mm to inches if you know what the size of a pack of 100mm cigarettes looks like; They're 3.94 in. long, (roughly 4") so about 2 in. for 50mm, 1 in. for 25mm etc. Close enough for watching videos. It's very useful for naval guns to get an idea of the bore size, i.e. a 300mm bore is a roughly 12" gun or 3 packs end to end as a visualization. Having a dimension in your usual units makes it much easier to visualize.
Given modern manufacturing you could 3d print the sabot as well. They probably wouldn't survive, but given their low cost as easy of production, it could be an interesting alternative.
CM measurements like you've given are incredibly easy to quickly ballpark to inches. 2.54cm to the inch. So 15.5cm is roughly 6". 12.6cm is roughly 5". It's quarters of 100mm - if you want to convert navel cannons quickly. 4" ~ 100mm |8" ~ 200mm| 12" ~ 300mm| 16" ~ 400mm. I know there's a bit of spare change not included there, but it's a quick way to do it. In the world of diagnostic x-ray 40" is approximately 100cm (even though we know it's 101.6cm).
I know but I can't be bothered and its a jibe at the non-metrics. It's your choice to still use weird feet, pounds, palms, squids or whatever, convert them yourselves 😉
@@thebotrchap Some of us 'ancient brits' learnt to use both in school, but I fully get where you are coming from. When making TH-cam videos, I think it is far better for you to leave some trivial work to the audience, rather than adding it to your workload and risking making silly errors with it.
@@myparceltape1169 I give the quarters of 100mm for a reason. People get so salty when discussing navel cannons "WHY IS THIS IN INCHES!?". It's an easy conversion. On the other hand... converting from lb weight to inches and mm is a giant pain in the ass. 6 lber is 57mm? 17lber is 76.2 mm?
@@SlavicCelery I have spent years knowing and using conversions and doing it without thinking. Now and again I realised I was not sure of a volume however and the easiest way was to go via weight. After I had the volume I would then use the SG. As for a 6pdr projectile, that's not what I work with but I do know it would be possible to put 6pounds of iron through a 1 inch hole. Possible. Thanks for the illumination of your thinking.
My instinct is that some sort of moulded paper maché (papier maché? Well you know what I mean) might be a winner here. You could machine a set of moulds, add a known amount of finely shredded paper and water/glue, compress them in a batch, and let them dry for a couple of days. If cardboard worked for the original, it ought to be OK.
The issue is that you need repeatability. Different paper or paper/water mix will give different shrinkage when drying, also warpage can occur. I have done a few tests using paper clay, essentially pre-mixed papier mâché and the resulting sabot was not great.
@@thebotrchap Hmm that's a good point re shrinkage. I suspect it's one of those things that could work but might not be worth the method development unless you're making a lot. I did think about 3D printed sabots, or some sort of mouldable resin... but none of the commonly available materials strikes me as ideal.
I think in Sweden a needle gun doesn't technically get considered a gun, so think the requirements for owning one is the same as and airrifle, be over 18. Is that the reason for the Dreyse competitions in Germany or do people just enjoy them?
My only concern with both MDF and or PVC if you were to move on to try that, is that I don't know if the black powder burns hot enough cause them to decompose into toxic, and corrosive breakdown products
I will use neither now since the Delrin ones work. Actually the sabot is exposed only for a faction of a second to high temp. The base of the Delrin ones recovered is completely unblemished. I was very careful when machining the MDF ones though with direct air extraction at the point of machining so minimize fumes and fibre spread.
@@wierdalien1 more likely HCl gas... but the amount would be very small, and forcefully diluted by the propellant gases anyway. You'd soon tell, PVC goes a sort of dark reddish brown colour when it decomposes.
My money would be on a printable nylon, rather than the usual PLA/PET(G)/ASA/ABS... but you'd have to try it and risk a mess if it left plastic residue in the bore or broke off.
Great video Chap, this must have taken a great deal of time and experimentation for the results and explanation. I for one appreciate your time and effort, even thought I do not own a Dreyse.
that would be even later the Dreyse rifle used paper cartridges with an embedded percussion cap, which made it the first standard military rifle to fire a unitary cartridge for the first using a metallic cartridge, that would be either the Springfield '66 in 50-70, or the Swiss Vetterli 1867 in 10.4mm (which was also the first military magazine rifle), depending on what you would count as "standard"
@@allangibson8494 yes, and the Treuille 1812 was a limited adoption rifle for the imperial guard that also fired from a metallic cartridge, but i wouldn't count unadopted designs and weapons only equipping special troops as "standard"
@@brasstard7.627 the question was about a standard issue rifle and afaik, the Spencer carbine was only issued in relative limited numbers, and only to cavalry, same for the miller, it was an infantry rifle, but only 2000 made and maybe a hundred saw use by militias and idk about pinfire rifles or carbines used by militaries in large number, the only i'm aware of was the French Treuille de Beaulieu of 1854, which was only made in 150 ex for the emperor personal guard
Interesting as always Le Chap. Would splitting the delrin sabot length-wise help? Don't know if that is done with 'modern' black powder rifles. One of these years I've got to find out the arms used by the Kingdom of Saxony in the 1800s. That's where my paternal line comes from.
Measurement conversion to the imperial using folks! Round ball group, 15,5 cm converts to 6.1 inches. MDF group, 24,5 cm converts to 9.6 inches. Derlin group, 12,63 cn converts to 4,97 ~ 5 inches.
A maxi ball would be better, you need a flat surface at the rear of the bullet to mount the primer. There is a mould maker in Germany that makes a Maxiball mould for Dreyse rifles. Anyway I refuse to shoot a projectile which is not historically correct for this rifle.
@@thebotrchap There are many polymers that can handle that easily. Modern sabots are made of polymer already anyway. Shotgun wads and shot cups, Remington Accelerator sabots, .50 BMG SLAP rounds, etc., Most ordinary desktop printers can print ASA and certain nylon alloys. Printing a sabot that can survive these conditions should be pretty easy. Also repeatable, consistent, and way less work than making them one at a time by hand. There's really nothing technically tricky involved in doing this.
Definitely not boring. As a matter of fact, interesting enough to watch a second time at 2 AM. I didn't hear the caliber mentioned. I assume, as you didn't mention trying them, the sabots for modern shotgun slugs either don't fit or offer support at the base due to the shape of the bullet. How about 3d printing (just a thought from someone who knows nothing about antique rifles). Good luck, if I had a beautiful old rifle, I'd want to shoot it too. Just a thought, have you contacted Jeff from the taofledermaus TH-cam channel? They test custom small batch shotgun slugs.
I do wonder if a compressed cardboard sabot would work? No idea how to make one but i imagine a press and mould would be needed. Add some wax coating at the end.
Interesting :) Have you thought of 3D printing the sabots to perfectly fit the base of the bullet? I'd have thought that a resin 3D printer using an ABS type plastic would be ideal.
@@thebotrchap Absolutely. The outlay is not bad these days and a quality 3D resin printer can be had for under £200. A million and one uses when you have one :)
@@thebotrchap I'm sure the 7.62mm four petal sabots for 5.56mm bullets are injection moulded. My experience of those is that they work well enough for shots out to 100m. The four petal design causes the sabot to break up after exit from the muzzle, with broken pieces travelling about 10m downrange. In my time with two stage light gas guns, we used to machine polycarbonate (aka lexan) to make sabots and low mass projeciles. Some folk said they were best annealed by immersion in boiling water, but we did not always do that.
@@thebotrchap Sickening isn't it? Mind you, us Brits tried out these new-fangled German style bolt action rifles in 1850 (see th-cam.com/video/N6rTBAzKH50/w-d-xo.html ) and decided against their adoption.
Dirty but clean after 3-4 wet moose milk patches. No brush necessary. Paper sabot can give good results but each batch will give different results due to slight changes in materials and manufacturing technique.
Have you considered UHMW PE or HDPE? You can also get Phenolic rod. If these work, you might also try compression forming. A heated die, some plastic pellets and an arduino controller. Then you could have all the sabots you need.
No smoke with round ball, lots with the other ammo. Presumably the wind changed or did the propellant too? There is something that mimics blackpowder but isn't. Nice group with the last ammo.
The paper wrap? Essentially a long paper strip lightly glued and wrapped to form a cylinder. The cylinder was then run through successive dies to reduce it to the required diameter. The info I am missing is at what time the bullet cavity was formed.
I meant in terms of rhe whole rou ds construction my German is appalling and all I have e is diagrams on hand and Iv a friend whose very much a historic crafter who has a few ideas on how you'd form it and what I would take to do easily and accurately to make those things quick and in bulk both in a modern context and the original designs.
Will you also try the M47 bullet ? Wolfgang Finze is the author of books about the the Dreyse. He is also an expert shot. 90 / 50 m / Offhand with a Dreyse.
Being a nerdy nerd, I have doodled up an idea for a blackpowder rifle with a Nagant-style cylinder, spark plug ignition and an...Acog 😀 hopelessly unrealistic, I'm sure
I've just came to an unrelated yet interesting conclusion that no matter what I try, under the current circumstances I will never be given the chance to even handle a firearm, which is fine, it's just that it did not hit me before, the fact that It's pointless aspiring to do something that I'll never be given the chance to do, those who have a chance to practise and/or shoot recreationally should consider themselves lucky or successful. Signing off.
How do you have a perfect English and French accent, that's amazing in itself, I have a perfect accent in what you would call American English and Canadian French, but I was surprised with you because true French and English accents are harder to pronounce.
@@dp-sr1fd Because (as stated clearly in the vid) I am respecting the dimensions and composition of the M55 cartridge. Using a minié would not make it an M55 cartridge now would it. The material of the sabot is of little consequence as long as it does its job. If the challenge was "producing the most accurate modern cartridge for the Dreyse" perhaps the minié could be an option.
Could somebody French (who’s probably watching the French language version so not here………I didn’t think this through) comment on the chaps accent while speaking French. As an Englishman I can’t even detect a hint that he wasn’t born and bred somewhere in south east England, I’d love to know where he sounds like he’s from when speaking French.
Try soaking toilet paper and compress into shape,taofledermauss channel find it useful in their application.out of interest how many rounds before needle need’s changing?
I have only changed once in 10 years of needle gun ownership, not because it broke, but because I made some new ones so that I could finally retire the original prussian marked one. Same with the Chassepot, never had one fail. This is of course will careful maintenance in a range environment. It doesn't reflect longevity in field conditions however I'm sure they survived longer than modern authors like to think.
You could try moulding the sabot out of paper pulp (like an egg carton). Adding a little potassium nitrate or ammonium nitrate to the mix might even give it a bit of a kick.
Not that I don’t trust you n stuff but I check out the pronunciation of sabot- I dint know if you were using the proper pronunciation or Johnny Foreigner speak. No surprises, French and English French the way I’ve been pronouncing it since reading an obscure article in an obscure gun magazine r-something years ago. Where I first read about a future British bullpup being built but no decisions then whether .223 or .17 inch- they were testing it against steel helmets. Anywho, Say-Bo, Sa-b’h, but there were some fools insisting it was Say-Bot.
Wierd... The second kind flew flatter... As you say... Which is usually the opposite of a lob.. or an arch sort of shape... But it seems it is more flat.. but compared to the first one.. which was also flat.. but up... Or something. Lol You said you had a bottom of the target hold. So something like 6 o'clock on 1... But that doesn't mean it didn't shoot flat, right??? It just went up... Compared to where u were aiming. More than the second one did. Or no?? I'm confused.. lol
Doesn't work as well as you'd think. There is shrinkage and warpage to take into account plus consistency in the source materials. The original ones are rolled paper compressed through successive dies. I tried it once using till roll paper, it took 3m of paper to get to the correct diameter.
But, but... spending hours cutting out long pieces of card, and then rolling them and glueing them to make Dreyse sabot is all part of the 'fun' isn't it?....
@@jimmyrustler8983 The issue is consistency with the card ones. I had once batch that gave great results and I thought I had finally nailed it, the next batch made with the same card shotgunned. No idea why.
This is what makes firearms so much fun. The weird stuff that comes with old guns and remaking old style ammunition. Glorious
Yeah, Dreyse needle gun competitions in Germany !? Of course, they do ... Who knew !
It's not until you start trying to make old cartridges that you see the cross over between ammuntion and fireworks. Needle gun cartridges for the Dreyse and Chassepot are all based on the paper, glue and string methods that have been used by firework makers for centuries. It is not until the mid 19th C when mass production metal forming technology appears do things change..
For all black powder gun nuts this looks like as much fun as you can have tinkering in the workshop then blasting at the range !
Not only is Mr.Chap creating big clouds of smoke he is now lobbing bonus lumps at the target ;-)
Chap I love your esoteric video subject matter. I find it so interesting and captivating. It’s always a great day when we get a long video like your deep dive on the Milbank-Amsler and making it’s ammunition. Love it all! Keep up the great work.
The fun of old guns, getting them to shoot well.
Not bored to death at all! The most you get on these old rifles is just "paper cartridge" a lot of the time. More like this please.
A common material that has been used for the driving bands of sabots of larger weapons is the polyamide 'Nylon 66'.
what a good looking gun
Looking forward to the next bit of research
Morning my Dear Chap..
I also have had all sorts of problems getting the Langblei bullet to stabilise.. I use paper strip sabots formed in a press in the way described by the Wests. Even with slitting the sabot the performance is very variable with significant numbers of "brummers" (tumbling bullets).
Getting sabots to separate cleanly has always been an issue with sabot ammunition, and it took years to get APDS and APFSDS to work properly.
A couple of things I have been trying:
1. Varnishing the inside and front end of the sabot. There is evidence that this was done with Prussian ammunition, presumably to stop the glue in the sabot sticking to the bullet. Results have been "variable", but I really need to do some more extensive firing trials.
2. Blocking the path between the primer and the base of the bullet. As my sabots are rolled, you get a hole down the centre of the sabot which will allow gas to get from the pierced primer to the base of the bullet at the point of ignition. I have a suspicion that this can cause the bullet to become unseated from the sabot in the barrel. I have been blocking the hole with resin putty (Acraglas gel) which seems to improve the performace. I notice that you have a hole down the centre of your plastic sabots which may be an issue!
I have been tempted by the German plastic sabots, however these are for the M47 "Acorn" bullet rather than the M55 Langblei "egg" bullet. Having spent good money on an M55 mould, I really want to get these to work properly. The M47 sabots look like they are injection moulded, so are not easy to do on a small scale. Perhaps 3D printing is a solution, but I am not convinced the plastic would survive long enough...! The M47 bullet is also full calibre unlike the M55 which does not touch the rifling. I think this keeps the bullet well seated on the sabot despite any back pressure from the primer cavity...
I have had good results with the M41 round ball bullets which I make from .615 balls that I use in my Ferguson Carbine. I also use paper strip sabots with these and have shot well out to 200m. I cannot hit anything much with the M55.. so far!
There is no issue with gas blow-by through the sabot. The hole in my Delrin sabot is simply for knocking out the primer as its recessed and a very tight fit in the pocket. The primer is a Berdan primer so the needle doesn't pierce it when firing (in fact it bends the needle a bit, need to trim it back).
The M47 sabots are indeed injection moulded but I think I could easily cut a groove in the bases of mine to emulate the skirt principle. I just nee to see what shape they have.
@@thebotrchap I keep forgetting you are in the land of Berdan! That makes more sense! I have some but they are jealously hoarded for recapping ancient cases on high days and holidays! They are like rocking horse poo in UK!
I use top hat percussion caps with the skirt cut off.. the metal is very thin and the needles penetrate every time.. I have a holder for the lathe and I can turn them off with surprising ease..
I look forward to hearing about your sabot skirting in due course!
Thank you for the drawing of the M-A ramrod.. I am in mid production!
@@felixthecat265 Excellent!
2/3 part 3d printed sabots, male/female connectors on the side of the sabots parts, so they leave at the muzzle, easier to retrieve?
Fantastic video. I like the research you do on these older firearms.
Good lord the chap is looking cool these days.
Why thank you ☺️
i loved this and look forward to seeing the best way
happy to be a Patreon
Have you tried just using a round wood base and then a wax mold to seat the bullet.
Take one of your MDF sabots. file of 2~4mm at the base. Take some hot glue and make a mold out of that. Then take wax/candle-wax and make the bullet holder.
In the bottom 2~4mm you will still need wood to be the explosion plug, but that should be just enough to push the wax forward.
Of course, i don't know how horrible your rifling will be, but this was one solution we had for our Belgian Revolution reproduction weapons (smooth bore) that actually worked nicely.
Interesting idea but churning out the Delrin ones takes no time at all.
The lesser known, semi automatic Dreyse needle gun
3D printed sabots come to mind as a possible quick and easy solution. You could try a whole variety of plastics easily and they cost next to nothing to produce with minimal effort.
I also had an idea involving paper mache pressed in a machined form, but that sounds like more trouble than it's worth frankly.
Nice little experiment.
An easy aid to the conversion of mm to inches if you know what the size of a pack of 100mm cigarettes looks like; They're 3.94 in. long, (roughly 4") so about 2 in. for 50mm, 1 in. for 25mm etc. Close enough for watching videos. It's very useful for naval guns to get an idea of the bore size, i.e. a 300mm bore is a roughly 12" gun or 3 packs end to end as a visualization. Having a dimension in your usual units makes it much easier to visualize.
Given modern manufacturing you could 3d print the sabot as well. They probably wouldn't survive, but given their low cost as easy of production, it could be an interesting alternative.
Materials might be tricky since in needs to be malleable/compressible.
@@thebotrchap There are flexible print filaments. I do not know they would react to high g load.
They trialled a lot of designs before moving from ball, I think they’re in the West brothers book. Nice work 👍
Interesting content as usual, thanks.
Listening to that action is some of the best gun ASMR I've ever heard..... such wonderful mechanical clicks
CM measurements like you've given are incredibly easy to quickly ballpark to inches. 2.54cm to the inch. So 15.5cm is roughly 6". 12.6cm is roughly 5". It's quarters of 100mm - if you want to convert navel cannons quickly. 4" ~ 100mm |8" ~ 200mm| 12" ~ 300mm| 16" ~ 400mm. I know there's a bit of spare change not included there, but it's a quick way to do it. In the world of diagnostic x-ray 40" is approximately 100cm (even though we know it's 101.6cm).
I know but I can't be bothered and its a jibe at the non-metrics. It's your choice to still use weird feet, pounds, palms, squids or whatever, convert them yourselves 😉
@@thebotrchap Some of us 'ancient brits' learnt to use both in school, but I fully get where you are coming from. When making TH-cam videos, I think it is far better for you to leave some trivial work to the audience, rather than adding it to your workload and risking making silly errors with it.
Not much problem converting measurements, especially when there is a 9metre steel tape marked in both within reach of my right hand.
@@myparceltape1169 I give the quarters of 100mm for a reason. People get so salty when discussing navel cannons "WHY IS THIS IN INCHES!?". It's an easy conversion.
On the other hand... converting from lb weight to inches and mm is a giant pain in the ass. 6 lber is 57mm? 17lber is 76.2 mm?
@@SlavicCelery I have spent years knowing and using conversions and doing it without thinking. Now and again I realised I was not sure of a volume however and the easiest way was to go via weight. After I had the volume I would then use the SG.
As for a 6pdr projectile, that's not what I work with but I do know it would be possible to put 6pounds of iron through a 1 inch hole.
Possible.
Thanks for the illumination of your thinking.
Interesting. Thanks, Chap.
My instinct is that some sort of moulded paper maché (papier maché? Well you know what I mean) might be a winner here. You could machine a set of moulds, add a known amount of finely shredded paper and water/glue, compress them in a batch, and let them dry for a couple of days. If cardboard worked for the original, it ought to be OK.
The issue is that you need repeatability. Different paper or paper/water mix will give different shrinkage when drying, also warpage can occur. I have done a few tests using paper clay, essentially pre-mixed papier mâché and the resulting sabot was not great.
@@thebotrchap Hmm that's a good point re shrinkage. I suspect it's one of those things that could work but might not be worth the method development unless you're making a lot. I did think about 3D printed sabots, or some sort of mouldable resin... but none of the commonly available materials strikes me as ideal.
@@chemistrykrang8065 The commercial ones I mentioned are injection moulded.
@@thebotrchap cardboard Egg cartons are very consistent (it is specifically controlled to be).
@@allangibson8494 yeah, but you are making 10s of thousands of these from large batches of pulp..
Looks like The Chap has lost weight, well done Chap.
Not really, been a steady 75kg for months
I think in Sweden a needle gun doesn't technically get considered a gun, so think the requirements for owning one is the same as and airrifle, be over 18. Is that the reason for the Dreyse competitions in Germany or do people just enjoy them?
No, it's just competitions amongst Dreyse shooters since they are an important part of German firearms history.
My only concern with both MDF and or PVC if you were to move on to try that, is that I don't know if the black powder burns hot enough cause them to decompose into toxic, and corrosive breakdown products
I will use neither now since the Delrin ones work. Actually the sabot is exposed only for a faction of a second to high temp. The base of the Delrin ones recovered is completely unblemished. I was very careful when machining the MDF ones though with direct air extraction at the point of machining so minimize fumes and fibre spread.
@@thebotrchap ok good, I wouldn't want too hear you had damaged yourself or the rifle
PVC definitely would burn in the oxygen rich atmosphere generated by burning black powder.
@@allangibson8494 be worried about ejecting a bunch of chlorine gas
@@wierdalien1 more likely HCl gas... but the amount would be very small, and forcefully diluted by the propellant gases anyway. You'd soon tell, PVC goes a sort of dark reddish brown colour when it decomposes.
I wonder if there’s a suitable material available for 3-d printers to make the sabots
My money would be on a printable nylon, rather than the usual PLA/PET(G)/ASA/ABS... but you'd have to try it and risk a mess if it left plastic residue in the bore or broke off.
@@chemistrykrang8065 Not something I'd fancy trying myself to be fair :)
I've experimented with common PLA in smokeless shotshells, it can work well enough.
@@Kaboomf That's interesting - you would think that the low Tg would cause it to soften on firing. I guess there just isn't time...
That's what I was thinking at the start of the video...
Another great video. Would also like a Dreyse but they are expensive.
excellent video as always. very informative and interesting. Still not convinced I want one of those rifles though...
Great video Chap, this must have taken a great deal of time and experimentation for the results and explanation. I for one appreciate your time and effort, even thought I do not own a Dreyse.
it's like watching Ray Charles talk about archaic riflery.
What about 3d printing sabots? That would allow you to tweak the design.
Excellent, I missed this video in error.
Crikey chappie you inhaled some black powder smoke today love the tech
Between the Swiss Rifles needing chargers and the Dryse, Chap get a 3-D filament printer with Pet(g) or better polyvinyl and get printing?
What was the first ever standard rifle to use the copper cartridge
that would be even later
the Dreyse rifle used paper cartridges with an embedded percussion cap, which made it the first standard military rifle to fire a unitary cartridge
for the first using a metallic cartridge, that would be either the Springfield '66 in 50-70, or the Swiss Vetterli 1867 in 10.4mm (which was also the first military magazine rifle), depending on what you would count as "standard"
The Pauli rifle of 1812 used metallic centerfire cartridges. It was rejected for being too expensive. Dreyse was one of Pauli’s apprentices.
@@allangibson8494 yes, and the Treuille 1812 was a limited adoption rifle for the imperial guard that also fired from a metallic cartridge, but i wouldn't count unadopted designs and weapons only equipping special troops as "standard"
@@quentintin1 there were a bunch of cartridges before the 50-70, for example 56-56 Spencer and 58 Miller not to mention all the Pinfire rounds
@@brasstard7.627 the question was about a standard issue rifle
and afaik, the Spencer carbine was only issued in relative limited numbers, and only to cavalry, same for the miller, it was an infantry rifle, but only 2000 made and maybe a hundred saw use by militias
and idk about pinfire rifles or carbines used by militaries in large number, the only i'm aware of was the French Treuille de Beaulieu of 1854, which was only made in 150 ex for the emperor personal guard
Interesting as always Le Chap. Would splitting the delrin sabot length-wise help? Don't know if that is done with 'modern' black powder rifles.
One of these years I've got to find out the arms used by the Kingdom of Saxony in the 1800s. That's where my paternal line comes from.
The original sabot has 4 slits at the mouth to help separation
That is such a good looking rifle.
Measurement conversion to the imperial using folks!
Round ball group, 15,5 cm converts to 6.1 inches.
MDF group, 24,5 cm converts to 9.6 inches.
Derlin group, 12,63 cn converts to 4,97 ~ 5 inches.
And shooting range of 50 m converts to 164 ft.
Technically, can you use a miniè ball in it?
A maxi ball would be better, you need a flat surface at the rear of the bullet to mount the primer. There is a mould maker in Germany that makes a Maxiball mould for Dreyse rifles. Anyway I refuse to shoot a projectile which is not historically correct for this rifle.
Chap, have you thought of making a mold to cast your dryse sabots out of wax or silicone?
Honestly, this whole sabot thing sounds like a great application for a 3D printer. The printer can make 50 of them at a crack while you sleep.
With a polymer that withstands heat and can handle plastic deformation without cracking?
@@thebotrchap There are many polymers that can handle that easily. Modern sabots are made of polymer already anyway. Shotgun wads and shot cups, Remington Accelerator sabots, .50 BMG SLAP rounds, etc., Most ordinary desktop printers can print ASA and certain nylon alloys. Printing a sabot that can survive these conditions should be pretty easy. Also repeatable, consistent, and way less work than making them one at a time by hand. There's really nothing technically tricky involved in doing this.
Very interesting! While I doubt it will be any better thsn the Delrin, has anybody tried Tufnol?
My team at Culham used to use Tufnol for railgun insulators. Ours was dreadfully awful to machine and blunted the cutting tools very quickly.
Have you tried paper pulp and a mould mix cotton for stronger result
Definitely not boring. As a matter of fact, interesting enough to watch a second time at 2 AM. I didn't hear the caliber mentioned. I assume, as you didn't mention trying them, the sabots for modern shotgun slugs either don't fit or offer support at the base due to the shape of the bullet. How about 3d printing (just a thought from someone who knows nothing about antique rifles). Good luck, if I had a beautiful old rifle, I'd want to shoot it too. Just a thought, have you contacted Jeff from the taofledermaus TH-cam channel? They test custom small batch shotgun slugs.
Wonder if you could 3d print them? Would be much less labor intensive.
I do wonder if a compressed cardboard sabot would work? No idea how to make one but i imagine a press and mould would be needed. Add some wax coating at the end.
Interesting :)
Have you thought of 3D printing the sabots to perfectly fit the base of the bullet? I'd have thought that a resin 3D printer using an ABS type plastic would be ideal.
That would involve spending money on a 3D printer. The commercial sabots I mentioned are injection moulded.
@@thebotrchap Absolutely. The outlay is not bad these days and a quality 3D resin printer can be had for under £200. A million and one uses when you have one :)
@@thebotrchap I'm sure the 7.62mm four petal sabots for 5.56mm bullets are injection moulded. My experience of those is that they work well enough for shots out to 100m. The four petal design causes the sabot to break up after exit from the muzzle, with broken pieces travelling about 10m downrange.
In my time with two stage light gas guns, we used to machine polycarbonate (aka lexan) to make sabots and low mass projeciles. Some folk said they were best annealed by immersion in boiling water, but we did not always do that.
@@derekp2674 The original sabots have 4 cuts to about 1/3 of the length for that purpose. We haven’t invented anything.
@@thebotrchap Sickening isn't it? Mind you, us Brits tried out these new-fangled German style bolt action rifles in 1850 (see th-cam.com/video/N6rTBAzKH50/w-d-xo.html ) and decided against their adoption.
So how fouled was the bore after firing the delrin sabot bullets? Also how does the grouping compare to the paper sabot?
Dirty but clean after 3-4 wet moose milk patches. No brush necessary. Paper sabot can give good results but each batch will give different results due to slight changes in materials and manufacturing technique.
Have you considered UHMW PE or HDPE? You can also get Phenolic rod.
If these work, you might also try compression forming. A heated die, some plastic pellets and an arduino controller. Then you could have all the sabots you need.
Sounds like an awful lot of kit and faff for 50-odd a year
Salut Chapuisat
Just a thought: is it possible to cast these things from epoxy or epoxy mixed with sawdust?
😃
Possibly but more trouble than it’s worth. Lathe is fast and clean
No smoke with round ball, lots with the other ammo. Presumably the wind changed or did the propellant too? There is something that mimics blackpowder but isn't.
Nice group with the last ammo.
Change in the wind I guess. I will not let BP substitutes anywhere near my guns.
Disclaimer: Im pretty much Sgt Schulz on BP substitutes.
Why don't you like them? The purist speaking or are the ballistics different?
@@carlcarlton764 A) None are available here B) I have easy access to the world’s finest BP.
have you got a guide for standard construction? I have a few people I want to run past for alternative options who are historic craftsperson
The paper wrap? Essentially a long paper strip lightly glued and wrapped to form a cylinder. The cylinder was then run through successive dies to reduce it to the required diameter. The info I am missing is at what time the bullet cavity was formed.
I meant in terms of rhe whole rou ds construction my German is appalling and all I have e is diagrams on hand and Iv a friend whose very much a historic crafter who has a few ideas on how you'd form it and what I would take to do easily and accurately to make those things quick and in bulk both in a modern context and the original designs.
Aahhh, the smell of blackpowder in an wet atumn day!
Will you also try the M47 bullet ? Wolfgang Finze is the author of books about the the Dreyse. He is also an expert shot. 90 / 50 m / Offhand with a Dreyse.
Sadly the bullets are not in stock so I’ve just got the sabots for forensic investigation 🕵️♀️
@@thebotrchap I have the bullets and the mold for the M47. I can send you some.
@@pietvermaat5928 I might take you up on your offer at a later date. Send a mail to botr.contact@gmail.com to keep in touch.
Yeah, droning about ancient rifles..... Sooooo boring,.......... 😂
Well you know kids these days. If you can’t stick an optic and Beta-C mag on it they’re not interested.
@@thebotrchap you know, about that optic idea, weld a length of rail...
Being a nerdy nerd, I have doodled up an idea for a blackpowder rifle with a Nagant-style cylinder, spark plug ignition and an...Acog 😀 hopelessly unrealistic, I'm sure
@@thebotrchap 😂
And just like that, badminton shuttlecock was invented 😂
3-D printer?
I've just came to an unrelated yet interesting conclusion that no matter what I try, under the current circumstances I will never be given the chance to even handle a firearm, which is fine, it's just that it did not hit me before, the fact that It's pointless aspiring to do something that I'll never be given the chance to do, those who have a chance to practise and/or shoot recreationally should consider themselves lucky or successful.
Signing off.
Nor will I. And I will not even try to sing a solo on stage, but I can cheer some people who do.
How do you have a perfect English and French accent, that's amazing in itself, I have a perfect accent in what you would call American English and Canadian French, but I was surprised with you because true French and English accents are harder to pronounce.
I don’t know 😅 I guess I’m an accent sponge. Leave me somewhere long enough and I’ll absorb the local inflections.
For some reason, looking at this video I thought that Chap might be a fan of the movie Outland, with Sean Connery . . .
You should try 3d printed ones
Three words: Black Powder Brutality
Chappy!
Have you tried finding a Mini-ball for your cartridge.
No, it was never fired with a minié so neither will I. It doesn't mean it wouldn't work I'm just a purist.
@@thebotrchap If you are a purist why are you using plastic and mdf
@@dp-sr1fd Because (as stated clearly in the vid) I am respecting the dimensions and composition of the M55 cartridge. Using a minié would not make it an M55 cartridge now would it. The material of the sabot is of little consequence as long as it does its job.
If the challenge was "producing the most accurate modern cartridge for the Dreyse" perhaps the minié could be an option.
Black Powder Brutality when? haha. Although that style of match with the single shot rifles of the mid-late 1800s would be cool. The war we never got
Well doing it with a Lebel and 1892 revolver would be 19th Century at least.
No Finnish Brutality footage? Or did you guys skip it this time?
All in good time
Could somebody French (who’s probably watching the French language version so not here………I didn’t think this through) comment on the chaps accent while speaking French. As an Englishman I can’t even detect a hint that he wasn’t born and bred somewhere in south east England, I’d love to know where he sounds like he’s from when speaking French.
Try soaking toilet paper and compress into shape,taofledermauss channel find it useful in their application.out of interest how many rounds before needle need’s changing?
I have only changed once in 10 years of needle gun ownership, not because it broke, but because I made some new ones so that I could finally retire the original prussian marked one. Same with the Chassepot, never had one fail. This is of course will careful maintenance in a range environment. It doesn't reflect longevity in field conditions however I'm sure they survived longer than modern authors like to think.
Round ball doesn't give a schitt about free bore.
Indeed. RBs are always reliable and a great way to start shooting a gun with minimal gear.
You could try moulding the sabot out of paper pulp (like an egg carton).
Adding a little potassium nitrate or ammonium nitrate to the mix might even give it a bit of a kick.
You can pull the trigger on these experiments.
The high angle of the bolt when closed on those always worries me. I know it’s locked but…
You should worry about Russian Berdan II rifles as well then 😄
Not that I don’t trust you n stuff but I check out the pronunciation of sabot- I dint know if you were using the proper pronunciation or Johnny Foreigner speak. No surprises, French and English French the way I’ve been pronouncing it since reading an obscure article in an obscure gun magazine r-something years ago. Where I first read about a future British bullpup being built but no decisions then whether .223 or .17 inch- they were testing it against steel helmets.
Anywho, Say-Bo, Sa-b’h, but there were some fools insisting it was Say-Bot.
Looks like a job for a 3D printer
Pretty high capacity magazine. Could have been used in WW2 or a brutality match😁
Watch out for the Bloke trying to borrow it.
Wierd... The second kind flew flatter... As you say...
Which is usually the opposite of a lob.. or an arch sort of shape...
But it seems it is more flat.. but compared to the first one.. which was also flat.. but up... Or something. Lol
You said you had a bottom of the target hold. So something like 6 o'clock on 1...
But that doesn't mean it didn't shoot flat, right???
It just went up... Compared to where u were aiming. More than the second one did.
Or no?? I'm confused.. lol
The flight arc on the sabot cartridges is flatter i.e I dont need to aim so low on the target to hit where I want to.
make them from paper mache in a mold with the actual bullet as the inside
Doesn't work as well as you'd think. There is shrinkage and warpage to take into account plus consistency in the source materials. The original ones are rolled paper compressed through successive dies. I tried it once using till roll paper, it took 3m of paper to get to the correct diameter.
But, but... spending hours cutting out long pieces of card, and then rolling them and glueing them to make Dreyse sabot is all part of the 'fun' isn't it?....
The thin card from cereal boxes works really well for making firecracker tubes. Would probably work well for making these Sabots, too.
@@jimmyrustler8983 Cereal box card works fine, it's just long and boring to make each one.
@@thebotrchap Yeah, it's the least fun part. The resulting booms and bangs make it worth it though 👍
@@jimmyrustler8983 The issue is consistency with the card ones. I had once batch that gave great results and I thought I had finally nailed it, the next batch made with the same card shotgunned. No idea why.
Jesus .... Look at the state of this guy... He's lost 25kg... What's his secret? Tapeworms?
Wut?
@@thebotrchap you've gotta be doing something
@@gomezgadgetyeharr9248 If been the same weight (75kg) for months. The max I’ve ever been is 85kg when healing from a broken leg when I was about 14 😆
mmmm.........the winner´s gun !