One of my favourite rifles, I'd love to own one! I'm not a reloader though, so I couldn't get any ammunition for it.. Great piece of bavarian history for sure
Yes please! I watched your cousin (?) stripping down the French Model 92, that was amazing, and I want more please :) I love the engineering information and history that you provide. Please keep posting. Love your work xo
Lovely elegance in design and great to see it shot, it really shows off how fast and easy to operate it was designed to be. Nice a few survived without being re-chambered for a cartridge it wasn't entirely designed for.
I'm certain similar guidance was warmly acknowledged by the Bavarians of the period that were using this particular weapon and being shot back at simultaneously. :-)
I had fired a desert eagle (almost sounds sacrilegious to even mention around an arm as fine as this) and yeah that sucker spit every single case right into the same damn place on my forehead. Had a welt at the end of the day.
I just inherited one of these from what my grandfather sent home from WWII. Took me awhile to find the history on it. Best I can tell is I have the "New" version..manufactured in 1876 by Steyr and commissioned in 1877 before the Bavarians fully adopted the 1871 Mauser. Took mine apart from watching your video and it seems that everything is functional except the ejector spring is worn and the screw that holds the trigger guard on and action assembly in appears to be the wrong one...I know that this gun hasn't been tampered with since WWII so someone at some point must have lost the screw and just jammed any old one in there! Going to clean up all the action components and give it some much needed love! Excited to have a part of history!
I'm getting raged-up that such a fantastic rifle got such short shrift from history and why didn't it shoot all the baddies like the breach loading equivalent of Chuck Norris ....... then you disassembled it and the manufacturing insanity provided the answer. What a fantastic, high performing, and insanely complicated piece of deadly art. Thanks for sharing, Gus
Yep....my relatives there don't speak German, they speak Bayriches and if they feel ornery they can make themselves completely unintelligible to virtually any other German.
@@danschneider9921 I may be late, but basically any region in germany has ists own dialects which are unintelligible by germans from other states. Nothing special about bavaria there. And while bavaria technically became part of the german empire, since the german empire was ruled by the prussian kings saying it was integrated into prussia describes the sitution very well.
They fought side by side in 1870/71 but yes, a Dreyse is totally outclassed by a metallic cartridge breechloader. The Dreyse was also outclassed by the Chassepot since it had a smaller calibre and a proper gas seal. The Dreyse marginally improved post-war with the Beck modification, which was essentially a copy of the Chassepot seal but by then the Mauser M71 was in the works. People malign the Dreyse as obsolete but they forget that it first appeared in 1841 just when the rest of the world was going over to percussion muzzleloaders.
what i find amazing is that most gunsmiths were machinist first and along with being.................metallurgists...............and mechanical engineers.....
Yeah gunsmiths have to pull from such an insane bounty and variety of knowledge. Chemistry, acoustics, metalworking, engraving, woodworking, ballistics, glass working, and now even electronics. Then make all of that work under horrible conditions with a minimal chance of spare parts and give it to an inept boob who will use it as a hammer for his tent spikes.
Thank you for showing the mechanical operation, as much as you could. As simple as that sideplate is, I wonder if you could replace it (for demonstration purposes) with a piece of plexiglass?
gotta love those big bore black powder rounds. Can wash out the bore with water and not get your trigger mech rusty. Did these ever have ejection problems due to fouling? Martini Henry did and they modified it with a longer lever.
Not that I know of, then again the Werder did not operate in harsh arse-end-of-the-world colonial wars. The Martini also had coiled brass cartridges which were suboptimal from the start.
I have mostly given up washing out with water, and use the modern BP solvents.. provided you finish with a water displacing oil like BC Sheath there is not really a problem with rust. The real reason for scrubbing out guns with hot water and soda was to get rid of the mercuric and chloride residues from the old primers.. this was what did most of the damage. Using modern non corrosive primers has made a huge difference. Black powder residue is not actually that corrosive.. in fact BP substitutes such as Pyrodex is far worse. Provided you squirt a bit of WD40 down the barrel and into the breech parts, you can leave off cleaning BP residue for a couple of days...
Came back to look this up after listing through S.M. Stirling’s books, in which it features quite heavily. Based on the description, I was expecting a far simpler piece with few moving parts...instead, I get clockwork.
Not many seem to cross the channel.. I used to watch Hermann Historic sales when moving antiques was relatively straightforward (I am also after a Dreyse..) , but now things appear much more difficult! I wouldn't mind an 11x60 one as I have these on my ticket already!
Just as a follow up.. I did eventually get a Werder from Hermann, though it took over a year to get it back into the country. I also got a Dreyse, which I had to restock.. both now shooting well!
I acknowledge that it is a broad statement to cover a complicated relationship. There are probably some Bavarian ultra conservatives who still think Bavaria is an independent kingdom. Nonetheless it needed to be mentioned as a reason for the later calibre change.
Hello,We must say what a good job you have done on demonstrating and dismantling.We would like to know what the regimental mark is.Our one featured on TH-cam many years ago was marked for the 5th Jager. These rifle as you may well know are very rare - try getting an unaltered bayonet!As you have presented such an accurate description, would it be possible to send you contact details.Regards,Guy and Leonard A-R-West FHBSA
In studying the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, I came across comparisons of the French chassepot with the Prussian "needle gun" which was inferior to the chassepot because it tended to jam. Is this Bavarian M1869 Werder the "needle gun" that I've read about?
The Prussian needle gun is what is commonly known as the “Dreyse” rifle. By 1870 there were a multitude of versions for various foot troop, mounted troops and specialist troops.
@@thebotrchap Do you know what the loading for those was, and, I'm particular, the powder charge? Ian's recent video references it as being the same 66.4 grains as the rifle, but I find that very surprising if true.
logitimate The pistol and carbine load was 38 grains initially and reduced from 1877 onwards to between 28-30grains due to complaints about recoil. Bullet was 338grains.
I can tell you as someone with VERY Bavarian relatives, most still living there i would be careful about saying "integrated into Prussia" That will result in instant bad news...Bavaria became part of the German empire, in fact they had their own Kaiser and royal family until 1918.
IIRC about 1000€ about 7-8 years ago with bayonet and sheath. I think I broke the sound barrier whipping my card out of my wallet ;-) Easily worth double that now.
I have sold my airplane and the last wee bairn is almost off to university, I can pursue awesome guns or tawdry women, it was a close call but awesome guns won. 😆😆
The extractor is biased in its recess by a blade spring it shares with the front trigger. It flicks back when the breech block drops down fully and hits the tail of the extractor.
Looks like a great (would say little but it’s not lol) simple rifle, a shame more weren’t made. Someone should make repros for these things, maybe in some more applicable commercial cartridge like .45-70
Yet clearly it does. Mr Werder must have spent long days and nights getting the leverage and spring strengths just right to balance the mechanism correctly.
Chap, since you declined to sell me yours, I have now bought two (if I were married, I'd now be divorced. As it is, who needs a house). Anyway, I have a short rifle in 11.5x35R, and a full size rifle, in 11.5X50R. Could you help a brother out w a source for cases and loading data???
Bavaria beeing assimilated into prussia is technically not correct! Into the german empire....dominated by prussia. I wonder why those guns had such a massive caliber .... any french elephants to shoot?
Well that was "given" to france by the king of italy....they even had a "referendum" in which 99.8% voted for the annexation....as is common in a well run "referendum" ^^
Yeah i wondered why it was thought that 11mm-ish would be a good caliber doctrinally. I guess its just a gradual learning process down from the larger musket balls to 5,56mm nowadays. Sort of seeing with every iteration that reducing the caliber doesn't reduce lethality but lets you carry more ammunition and even increasing accuracy?
Don't forget that we're talking about black powder when we talk about 11 mm being a common baseline for military calibers in this period. The only way to get more power out of a black powder cartridge was to add more black powder, so in the round bullet era there was a limit to how small a diameter/length a cartridge could have and still meet militarily acceptable range and power requirements. The two things that really contributed to smaller diameter cartridges becoming acceptable were the advent of spitzer bullets and high energy smokeless powder. Those two inventions, when combined, increased efficiency and accuracy enough to eliminate the need for big round lead slugs and allowed armies to capitalize on smaller, more convenient ammunition. As Bloke pointed out though, these two improvements weren't initially adopted at the same time, so there were some legitimate concerns in various armies about the newer ammunition not being as effective as the older stuff (whose properties were known).
Ian, from Forgotten Weapons, would love to get his hands on this rifle.
Huh, did a quick search and I'm surprised he hasn't covered one yet.
The Chap The community is crying out for collaborations between you, forgotten weapons, and c&r arsenal of course.
Forgot to mention britishmuzzleloaders...dang that guy knows his subject.
I just feel more collaboration would benefit all.
A weapon so forgotten, that even Forgotten Weapons forgot about it.
And by collaboration, we mean shipping.
I'm back here again after Ian's disassembly video today. I thought I'd remembered this one.
Really like the action on this one ! Love the ejection.... Nice solid weapon.
One of my favourite rifles, I'd love to own one! I'm not a reloader though, so I couldn't get any ammunition for it.. Great piece of bavarian history for sure
Marvelous piece of elegant design! "I love these Bavarians, so meticulous!"
Getting better and better. Almost Forgotten (European) Weapons now.
LOL We wouldn't want to plagiarise Ian's distinctive intro, most unsportsmanlike.
What a beautiful piece of mechanical engineering that trigger group is!
This is awesome firearm both mechanically and Visually I really want one
Oh what a lovely thing that is. Another one I'd never heard of. That action evidences the work of a genius. Pure art.
To clarify the inner workings I'll do another short vid without the springs in place.
Yes please! I watched your cousin (?) stripping down the French Model 92, that was amazing, and I want more please :) I love the engineering information and history that you provide. Please keep posting. Love your work xo
Lovely elegance in design and great to see it shot, it really shows off how fast and easy to operate it was designed to be. Nice a few survived without being re-chambered for a cartridge it wasn't entirely designed for.
ian from forgotten weapons just covered the pistole version lads
snake We know 😉
I love how the spent casing ejects backwards into your eyeball on round #2. Excellent feature.
A common feature of most tilting block systems. They weren't intended to be opened with the rifle raised.
Glad that you were wearing glasses !!
Always wear eye protection ;-) Mind you some modern pistols have a habit of ejecting straight back in the forehead.
I'm certain similar guidance was warmly acknowledged by the Bavarians of the period that were using this particular weapon and being shot back at simultaneously. :-)
I had fired a desert eagle (almost sounds sacrilegious to even mention around an arm as fine as this) and yeah that sucker spit every single case right into the same damn place on my forehead. Had a welt at the end of the day.
A very interesting rifle it's cool to see rifle's like this one.
I just inherited one of these from what my grandfather sent home from WWII. Took me awhile to find the history on it. Best I can tell is I have the "New" version..manufactured in 1876 by Steyr and commissioned in 1877 before the Bavarians fully adopted the 1871 Mauser. Took mine apart from watching your video and it seems that everything is functional except the ejector spring is worn and the screw that holds the trigger guard on and action assembly in appears to be the wrong one...I know that this gun hasn't been tampered with since WWII so someone at some point must have lost the screw and just jammed any old one in there! Going to clean up all the action components and give it some much needed love! Excited to have a part of history!
Great stuff you two!!! Thank you for your dedication ans expertise!
After seeing how a Sharpes comes apart, that is pretty well thought out.
I'm getting raged-up that such a fantastic rifle got such short shrift from history and why didn't it shoot all the baddies like the breach loading equivalent of Chuck Norris ....... then you disassembled it and the manufacturing insanity provided the answer. What a fantastic, high performing, and insanely complicated piece of deadly art.
Thanks for sharing, Gus
Very cool rifle.
I nearly started crying at 2:29
This is awesome history
You must be a really feminine fellow....
Fascinating mechanism.
The Bavarians were integrated into Prussia? Say THAT in Munich and run for your life :-D
Bavaria became part of germany you probably tried to say ;-)
Bavarians in Munich? Hard to find :D
Saupreissn!
Yep....my relatives there don't speak German, they speak Bayriches and if they feel ornery they can make themselves completely unintelligible to virtually any other German.
@@danschneider9921 I may be late, but basically any region in germany has ists own dialects which are unintelligible by germans from other states. Nothing special about bavaria there. And while bavaria technically became part of the german empire, since the german empire was ruled by the prussian kings saying it was integrated into prussia describes the sitution very well.
I love all of your videos.
Awesome video! Well done :)
My pleasure. Its my favorite!
The Chap Do you think that it could have rivaled the Dryse needle rifle?
Bloke on the Range Thanks! I thought that wasn't it used in the Franco-Prussian war?
They fought side by side in 1870/71 but yes, a Dreyse is totally outclassed by a metallic cartridge breechloader. The Dreyse was also outclassed by the Chassepot since it had a smaller calibre and a proper gas seal. The Dreyse marginally improved post-war with the Beck modification, which was essentially a copy of the Chassepot seal but by then the Mauser M71 was in the works.
People malign the Dreyse as obsolete but they forget that it first appeared in 1841 just when the rest of the world was going over to percussion muzzleloaders.
The Chap Thanks for the info! Didn't the Germans take some of the parts of the Chassepot from captured examples for use in the Mauser M71?
Beautiful rifle I love it
😮😮😮😀😎👍🏼 Excellent Video Chap n Bloke
what i find amazing is that most gunsmiths were machinist first and along with being.................metallurgists...............and mechanical engineers.....
Yeah gunsmiths have to pull from such an insane bounty and variety of knowledge. Chemistry, acoustics, metalworking, engraving, woodworking, ballistics, glass working, and now even electronics. Then make all of that work under horrible conditions with a minimal chance of spare parts and give it to an inept boob who will use it as a hammer for his tent spikes.
Ian just took a look at the pistol.
Revener666 I know, I posted my vid in his comments.
@@thebotrchap well it was mostly for the other people here. :)
Thank you for showing the mechanical operation, as much as you could. As simple as that sideplate is, I wonder if you could replace it (for demonstration purposes) with a piece of plexiglass?
76horsepower Yes indeed, I have the plexiglass, just need to time to fit it and film.
Is it just me, or did you try to close it like a Martini-Henry on the first shot at 2:54?
gotta love those big bore black powder rounds. Can wash out the bore with water and not get your trigger mech rusty.
Did these ever have ejection problems due to fouling? Martini Henry did and they modified it with a longer lever.
Not that I know of, then again the Werder did not operate in harsh arse-end-of-the-world colonial wars. The Martini also had coiled brass cartridges which were suboptimal from the start.
I have mostly given up washing out with water, and use the modern BP solvents.. provided you finish with a water displacing oil like BC Sheath there is not really a problem with rust. The real reason for scrubbing out guns with hot water and soda was to get rid of the mercuric and chloride residues from the old primers.. this was what did most of the damage. Using modern non corrosive primers has made a huge difference. Black powder residue is not actually that corrosive.. in fact BP substitutes such as Pyrodex is far worse. Provided you squirt a bit of WD40 down the barrel and into the breech parts, you can leave off cleaning BP residue for a couple of days...
I clean exclusively with moose milk. Cleans well and smells nice
presumably of eau de moose?
Or possibly of Ballistol, considering the genealogy of Swiss Moose...?
redirected here from your mad minute vid :-)
Came back to look this up after listing through S.M. Stirling’s books, in which it features quite heavily. Based on the description, I was expecting a far simpler piece with few moving parts...instead, I get clockwork.
Ian on “Forgotten Weapons” just covered the pistol version of this mechanism.😎
I saw that ealier and now this popped up for me as well.
I have been after one of those for ages...
The ones converted to 11mm Mauser are reasonably obtainable around mainland Europe.
Not many seem to cross the channel.. I used to watch Hermann Historic sales when moving antiques was relatively straightforward (I am also after a Dreyse..) , but now things appear much more difficult!
I wouldn't mind an 11x60 one as I have these on my ticket already!
Just as a follow up.. I did eventually get a Werder from Hermann, though it took over a year to get it back into the country. I also got a Dreyse, which I had to restock.. both now shooting well!
Der Blitzgewehr!
Very informative and cool Video!
Still surprised that there are no angry comments about the bavarian assimilation comment.
I acknowledge that it is a broad statement to cover a complicated relationship. There are probably some Bavarian ultra conservatives who still think Bavaria is an independent kingdom. Nonetheless it needed to be mentioned as a reason for the later calibre change.
This seems like the job for Perspex.
Oooh I might just do that
What field do you guys work in? Your masterful use of the screwdriver as a pointing device makes me think engineer at the large hadron collider
Just an ordinary desk job looking at sometimes extraordinary things ;-)
The Chap Aha! Tourbillon taste tester!
How does this compare with a martini Enfield for shooting?
I have been trying to buy a werder for about 5 years.
Hermann Historica auctions in Germany usually have one or two per auction
Is that a Kropatshek bolt to the right of the clockwork? What a neat single shot.
Nope, I would like a Kropatscheck again some day though, they are butter smooth actions.
Yeah, even the little bit of force to pop the lifter up is smooth as hell. May I ask, what bolt is it from, then?
Ah, I shall ask for your patience a little while longer on that one.
Ha! I found an Easter Egg! I await more fantastic content from you both.
Sweet!
Hello,We must say what a good job you have done on demonstrating and dismantling.We would like to know what the regimental mark is.Our one featured on TH-cam many years ago was marked for the 5th Jager. These rifle as you may well know are very rare - try getting an unaltered bayonet!As you have presented such an accurate description, would it be possible to send you contact details.Regards,Guy and Leonard A-R-West FHBSA
Gebrüder West, we already know each other from Gunboards where I lurk under the username Fabian23
Beautiful piece of technology and great video. Did it have any trouble ejecting after firing a few times like the martini henry?
Not that I know of. There were some accuracy issues apparently with the very last ones built new in 11mm Mauser.
In studying the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, I came across comparisons of the French chassepot with the Prussian "needle gun" which was inferior to the chassepot because it tended to jam. Is this Bavarian M1869 Werder the "needle gun" that I've read about?
No. M1842 Dreyse is.
The Prussian needle gun is what is commonly known as the “Dreyse” rifle. By 1870 there were a multitude of versions for various foot troop, mounted troops and specialist troops.
Very interesting man if I could get my grubby paws on one of those over here in the do United States it would be worth a mint
Unmolested they are worth a mint anywhere. Forgot to mention I also have the unaltered bayonet to go with it.
The Chap Something of a 'considered purchase' then, I'd bet!
An investment certainly
i never got it, are the two friends or "more"?
6:23, is there a pistol version?¿
Yes, and also a carbine version. These are always found in their original calibre 11,5x35R
@@thebotrchap Do you know what the loading for those was, and, I'm particular, the powder charge? Ian's recent video references it as being the same 66.4 grains as the rifle, but I find that very surprising if true.
logitimate The pistol and carbine load was 38 grains initially and reduced from 1877 onwards to between 28-30grains due to complaints about recoil. Bullet was 338grains.
yes, but does it shoot bb pellets?
Make me a chamber insert and it will
I can tell you as someone with VERY Bavarian relatives, most still living there i would be careful about saying "integrated into Prussia" That will result in instant bad news...Bavaria became part of the German empire, in fact they had their own Kaiser and royal family until 1918.
So how much did the rifle set you back? It is pretty damn slick and I kinda want one now.
IIRC about 1000€ about 7-8 years ago with bayonet and sheath. I think I broke the sound barrier whipping my card out of my wallet ;-) Easily worth double that now.
The Chap Forgive me, but did you say that was the first time you had fired it? May I ask why so long between buying and firing?
Many thanks
The Chap okay cringed a tiny bit since that's more that my full auto rifles but I guess the age a such means it's fair.
Life, raising small kids and other guns simply got in the way.
I have sold my airplane and the last wee bairn is almost off to university, I can pursue awesome guns or tawdry women, it was a close call but awesome guns won. 😆😆
is that a gras bolt that I spy in the back
Yes and no ;-) It will be the subject of a vid at some point in the year.
Does the extractor stay in place and depend on the action of the breach block moving down to extract the round?
Brilliant design by the way
The extractor is biased in its recess by a blade spring it shares with the front trigger. It flicks back when the breech block drops down fully and hits the tail of the extractor.
Ok now I can visualize it. I forgot about the spring that sits between it and the trigger
The vid on the precise inner works has been filmed and is in the release pipeline. Be warned, it is rated nerd level 10 🤓
Looks like a great (would say little but it’s not lol) simple rifle, a shame more weren’t made. Someone should make repros for these things, maybe in some more applicable commercial cartridge like .45-70
Would The Chap flog his rifle??
The chap would not!
I didn't figure, but what the heck, doesn't hurt to ask.
Id imagine with a bit of practice loading it left handed would be rather quick, as you could hold it on target with your right hand during the process
You can also do that right handed, I just didn't through habit. Left handed the thumb just needs to reach across the action to reach the cocking lever
Who else is here because of Ian?
Declan Stewart Looking at the viewing stats, you are in a minority, but a welcome minority 😉 Hope you enjoyed the vid 👍
Yeah this poped up in my feed after watching Ian's video, well worth the watch.
such a strange design I fell like it would be hard to function quickly
Yet clearly it does. Mr Werder
must have spent long days and nights getting the leverage and spring strengths just right to balance the mechanism correctly.
Terrible noisy drains there.
Chap, since you declined to sell me yours, I have now bought two (if I were married, I'd now be divorced. As it is, who needs a house).
Anyway, I have a short rifle in 11.5x35R, and a full size rifle, in 11.5X50R. Could you help a brother out w a source for cases and loading data???
Bavaria beeing assimilated into prussia is technically not correct! Into the german empire....dominated by prussia.
I wonder why those guns had such a massive caliber .... any french elephants to shoot?
The 11mm-ish calibre is absolutely normal for the time in all the major armies worldwide. The 18mm converted muzzleloaders are the real elephant guns.
Well that was "given" to france by the king of italy....they even had a "referendum" in which 99.8% voted for the annexation....as is common in a well run "referendum" ^^
Only the Swiss jumped the gun with the slightly smaller 10,4mm from 1851.
Yeah i wondered why it was thought that 11mm-ish would be a good caliber doctrinally. I guess its just a gradual learning process down from the larger musket balls to 5,56mm nowadays. Sort of seeing with every iteration that reducing the caliber doesn't reduce lethality but lets you carry more ammunition and even increasing accuracy?
Don't forget that we're talking about black powder when we talk about 11 mm being a common baseline for military calibers in this period. The only way to get more power out of a black powder cartridge was to add more black powder, so in the round bullet era there was a limit to how small a diameter/length a cartridge could have and still meet militarily acceptable range and power requirements. The two things that really contributed to smaller diameter cartridges becoming acceptable were the advent of spitzer bullets and high energy smokeless powder. Those two inventions, when combined, increased efficiency and accuracy enough to eliminate the need for big round lead slugs and allowed armies to capitalize on smaller, more convenient ammunition. As Bloke pointed out though, these two improvements weren't initially adopted at the same time, so there were some legitimate concerns in various armies about the newer ammunition not being as effective as the older stuff (whose properties were known).