You are right about ZSA, I just purchased The Voyager and they sent me a personal email regarding some of the things I requested and responded to my feedback, what a great company! Great content regarding the Moonlander, this was definitely one of my top picks, you have a great setup too with that mounting system.
My main issue with moving to a split keyboard - is that I feel that it will *limit* my flexibility. I don't want to get used to a keyboard like the moon lander, just to suffer when I need to work on a laptop somewhere. And I don't want to carry my keyboard around with me everywhere... I am a big fan of the 75 layout, and consider moving to a 60 percent layout. I would be happy to hear your thoughts about how this limits the flexibility (or not)
in my experience that makes no difference. i have a split keyboard on my desk at home and at work, but still type on my laptops builtin keyboards at any other place without issues or loss of speed. for comparison: i do struggle switching between language specific keylayouts.
After some time I was quiet quick again on my Laptop keyboard. But you really can feel that the "Standard" layout is just not made for human hands. But typing feels good and actually the split keyboard made me a better standard typer too. Only programming is super annoying because my layers are so perfect that I instantly feel the pain again. Especially on a German QWERTZ layout :D I would say just go for it and you will see that it is pretty easy to switch between laptop and split keyboard. I always tell my friends it is like riding a steering a bike or a car. The interface is so different the brain can easily adapt with a bit of work :)
I was worried about the same issue. IMO, while the moonlander does come with a travel case, it's a bit too much for carrying but definitely doable. If I travelled a lot, I'd get the voyager. When I travel now, I don't bother with a keyboard at all, or just pack the nuphy. This answers your first question - I have no problem switching back and forth. I'm quicker on the moonlander but I'm definitely fine with the laptop's kb if I have to use it. Smaller keyboards like the voyager and others can sit on top of the computer's keyboard which is also efficient in space so you may want to explore this option. As for learning to type on a split - yeah, it's something to learn, but it's really not a big deal. 2-3 days and you're good to go. after a week or two you'd forget this was even an issue. especially if you're already touch typing!
I love my Moonlander. It's my first ergo split keyboard and I've never even felt the need to try another...although I would eventually like to try a board with concavity.
@@devopstoolbox I have the moonlander & the glove 80 and personally for me the glove 80 is a nicer experience. I don't have large hands and I constantly felt rotating my hand slightly to reach for the pinky (Q & P). The concave effect helps with a natural position. I do like the customization more on the moonlander of hotswapping my keys and the overall build quality. My dream board would be a concave keyboard like the glove 80 - flat keycaps - topre keys (yes they are SOOOOO NICE) and the build quality of the zsa voyager (robust) - with good tenting abilities (don't like both the glove 80 & the moonlander standard tenting mechanisms)
Kinesis Advantage user of 15+ years here: once you go contoured, there’s no going back to a flat board. I mean, I’ll do it if I have to, but I won’t like it. The Advantage 360 feels like tank. I _have_ customized my setup with supplemental tenting and metal key caps, though. I expect this to be the last keyboard I buy, unless there is some catastrophic electronic failure.
I have a Voyager from ZSA and love it. It's my first split and columnar keyboard and I didn't realize how much of a difference that makes to my typing comfort. It is an investment for sure, and took a bit of time to learn the layout, but it's been a very positive experience.
I have the ZSA Voyager and it's absolutely fantastic! I love this company, how it operates, the quality of their products, and their attention to detail and to customer satisfaction. It's sort of rare to see nowadays to be frank.
100%! The voyager sound like the better version of the moonlander for smaller palms. My only worry was the tenting (or lack thereof) and no wrist support
I’ve been wondering ever since I started watching your videos what keyboard you use… I had even searched for it on my own with no success! Thanks for sharing your selection and the journey that brought you here.
Still I prefer Dygma Defy or Dygma Raise 2 as they are split keyboards and wireless. Defy has keys spaced similarly with finger lengths in mind. They are also programmable with led backlight and underglow with integrated tilting. I bought them to get my writing on keyboard healthier. Have a great day!
Going to try the defy pretty soon. With regards to wireless - while it's not THAT big of a deal for me, I would like to try it out. ZSA is very strict about it - they don't want their product's life to be determined by battery length and does admirable IMO
"I'm not a fast typist, but can type 100 words per minute on the moonlander..." I am a fast typist, but can only hit 80 wpm on my best days. Thanks for the video. I currently use the Voyager, but am intrigued w the Moonlander. I love the Voyager, but wish it had 1 additional thumb button.
Do note that the moonlander keys are further away making them suitable for people with xl palms - ZSA's founder rule of thumb is "over 180 cm in height. As for speed - everything is relative, but when you see other famous youtubers, not necessarily software devs, do 150 randomly, it makes you wonder
I kept "scratching" my thumbs against the edges of the keycaps for so long, my brain would register this annoyance that I was never actually conscious of... one day I was like "WHY THE HELL IS THIS KEY UPSIDE DOWN??" and flipped it. Never went back!
My first mechanical keyboard was a planck from ZSA 5 years ago and I thought I'd use that forever until I tried split keyboard with concavity few years later. Now I just use my planck for the occasional gaming.
Nice keyboards! I agree with the idea that split keyboards with "keywells" are truly the most ergonomic for typing. IBM Model M and Kinesis were right in that. Custom dactyl manuform kbs I believe are endgame because of the customizations you can do. I think the glove80 is possibly the closest off-the-shelf option, but it's just not my taste.
another good one. Looking forward to the next video. I have been struggling with my neovim for basic writing. Things like spellcheck and word wrapping.
After playing with lots of kbs, i have settled with advantage 360 wired one. I like moonlander, but the concave structure of 360 helped alot. I can actually in a way touch type😂.
Testing the dygma now, with a smaller layout, and the glove80 is waiting on my desk (concaved) let's see how it goes... funny enough, I didn't test the advantage at all. Considered the best when it comes to comfort but not configs...
The moonlander is really great. Since I have small hands however, and I like layouts, I switched to the Voyager. Lower profile, less keys that are slightly closer, small changes but I find it way more comfortable. That's highly subjective, that being said.
@devopstoolbox I like it better for typing, but I might be biased since I was used to use a chicklet keyboard (Logitech MC Keys) before the moonlanderM. I used the Moonlander for a year before buying the Voyager (a year ago, so I used them both the same amount of time) and during this time I always kinda missed the low profile. With the Voyager I also changed the switches for the lightest linear switches I could find and it works better for me, pretty much instantly.
HAHA yea that's a step I don't know if I can take.... Super interested to know whether this is actually an improvement or something that's close to impossible to get used to..
I have purchased one and found a pretty nice setup, but i went back to my normal keyboard because: 1. My hands are small and i cab only use the two nearest thumb keys 2. The leftmost and rightmost columns require me to use my pinky fingers to type them (p, q, a, z...) and i just cannot get used to it. I can barely get used to typing with my ring fingers though that's bearable 3. I have tried just using my ring finger for both pinky finger keys and ring finger keys but i invariably found my hand had to contort for some key combinations I love the wide shoulder typing. I love not having to stretch my hands to type a number bigger then 5. I love the thumb clusters. I am so sad that i can't get used to it....
I'm with you on the thumb cluster! As for the pinky, there's no way around it at least for me, I had to learn to type correctly. Either that, or switch to another keyboard layout that can suit your style
Few weeks ago i decided to build split keyboard myself: go through the process of creating pcb, case, soldering, etc. All of the components will arrive soon. Hope this will go well. Wish me luck c:
Come back and tell me how it goes! In his interview, Erez (ZSA founder) explained that this is how ZSA was founded - providing users who wanted the finished product without having to go through the process of building it on their own :)
@@devopstoolbox Sure! All of my prev keebs were prebuilt, i've never even bought a hotswap one. But i LOVE configuring things (the reason i've visited your channel). And the ability to configure my own keyboard interested me too much. I don't blame anyone who use a prebuilt one: corne, moonlander, voyager and sofle are amazing (on videos). I've found an Erez's podcast, will watch it later. Love ur content
@@devopstoolbox well, its selling point is the curved key-well and it is the key that makes it stand out from the others. The fingers curl naturally over it and you almost don't need to move your hand at all to reach any key. The thumb cluster is also superior in my opinion, but that's probably thing of the preference. Another point is low profile CHOC keys. I was a bit wary of them before I bought glove80, now I don't want any other keys even if I move from glove80 in the future. What was one of the selling points for me was its light weight - it is build to be mounted and light weight lets you go with cheap mounting solutions without worrying about the keyboard being too heavy. Combined with low profile keys, you don't need to apply too much force to type. That's just my subjective take, though, I guess you'd need to try it to see what I mean. I've seen people renting those for test drives on the glove80 discord, there's also soldering service if you want a non-standard key switch option (however, the default choices seem to be great, at least for me... I haven't caught on the "choose the keyboard by its sound" fad just yet...) Oh, and it runs on ZMK firmware, so you can customize it however you like, even to a point where you can compile it from source, meaning you can build your own functionality if you find the default customization options lacking.
@@devopstoolbox The glove was my first split keyboard. It's great! Very comfortable. You won't really be able to improve the sound of the keys as they're low profile because of the curvature of the board. The thumb cluster gives 6 keys which is awesome although one on each side is slightly tricky to hit. Flashing a layout is really easy and the I think the build quality is good. Also have a numpad layer on the right side :)
I got one since almost a year and it's amazing. First thing I noticed when I used it for the first time is that I didn't know how to type properly with two hands and all the fingers.
Hey - Your idea to turn the keycaps got me thinking. I have just turned the keycaps around on my upper row above the home keys as well as the G and H keys (on US layout). It seems to just click for me. Typing speed has increased 10WPM on my moonlander that I am still breaking in. Thank you!
I see in a recent video that you've moved on to another keyboard, but I prefer the UFK over the moonlander. The moonlader's keys are pretty far apart from each other
Yep, testing the defy for the last few weeks - the video is coming, and I'm also going to test the glove and other kbs. Totally agree about the moonlander keys being slightly too much and made for xl palms
Why a moonlander over something like Dygma Defy? I use that, and i could perhaps see some argument about the thumb cluster being more comfortable (i haven't use the moonlander so i dunno), but from a productivity perspective it has the same benefits, just more action buttons
Going to test the defy soon. Why the moonlander? basically I was hooked to ZSA from the start - how they present stuff, their content and obviously reviews I found online. I do think the moonlander is a big animal for large hands, and while I'm going more than ok, the thumb cluster is only 50% relevant for me (I'm hardly using the red huge triangles and the bottom thumb keys are probably pressed twice a day. So with the defy on the way I do expect to feel a more ergonomic thumb option!
I'm curious how people use the mice with these fancy keyboards. Whenever I look at how it limits movement, I think that most of my movement comes from the mouse, so I'm curious if there is a keyboard like the Zsa or glove that incorporates a trackpad or mouse into the design.
There is, but I really *really* don't like the idea of having one... If you're not into mouse mode (I'm not), just reach our to your mouse. I found out that when the keyboard is flat it's nice to have the mouse in between the 2 pieces. when it's tented - I place it to the right of the right side...
@@devopstoolbox It's just spend $300 for a keyboard to not move your hands and then spend a lot of time moving your hands for the mouse. I'm really curious about the HHKB studio with the Thinkpad pen nub for this reason.
Nice video, however saying that the HHKB has a "normal" layout is not accurate. The way the function key works and the position of the arrow keys is quite unique, which is one of the reasons the layout is so beloved. Also, the hhkb layout come with the ctrl key in the caps lock key slot by default, so you do not need to remap it.
Yep you're right. My intention was the staggered layout. The missing arrow keys + function + ctrl had so much impact on me that I address them as "standard" 😅
Yep, same here, I'd love to try something else for a split. I still love my moonlander and the endless options it provides. The typing experience isn't it's best feature but I can forgive that...
The Moonlander saved me from RSI, with it I can easily crank 10hrs without pain. Whenever I do get pain or feel fatigue even with the Moonlander, it's a sign I need to stop coding and get out of the house 😅
I agree on the split keyboard. I started with a ergodox, but now am on a bastardkb charybdis. Which i really enjoy. Trackball took some time to learn to love. Will try the double tap to delete mod. Currently trying homerow mods which im not totalt sold on yet.
What is confusing for me in HHKB is that they say that customization is possible only with Windows app. So, if you have Linux or Mac, you need to find a Win machine first to set the keyboard up...
Homerow has its advantages and disadvantages. Advantage - it makes typing more comfortable, Disadvantage - it slows you down a bit due to how the key timings work. You need to be conscious of when the key is held down before pressing another key and release it in time if you need the key sequence that works for homerow. I've been on homerow mods for a long time now but I find myself going back to dedicated function keys (shift/ctrl/alt/super) I still use f j as homerow shift keys, but for quick shortcuts, nothing beats a dedicated ctrl/alt keys when coding.
@ seeing that people can have decent speed using HRM, looks like a lot depends on held timing configuration. Although i agree that you have to be more conscious. About a year started to dive into that rabbit hole :)
if you ever wanna go wireless or even want to connect to your phone or tablet I will recommend glove 80 or dygma-defy glove80 is curved well And Defy is a better keyboard from every other espect
Yeah, it is a thing. I love how ZSA are rigid about this and their reasoning make a lot of sense. But sometimes you just want to work away from cables...
ADM42 looks nice, but too few key IMHO I've recently switched to split keeb (ergohaven k:03 pro) from tlk (vortex model m ssk) and as for me - 60 keys is good compromise between too much chords to remember and keyboard size UPD: also, ergohaven planeta as for me looks more reasonable than adm42 exactly because there are 60 keys
I usually love the 60 keys layout (as one can guess baed on the HHKB & Nuphy air 60 choices) so I agree it's ideal. Yea the ADM is a bit small. But like I mentioned, working under this kind of constraint makes you find creative solutions that sometimes make for a better alternative than what you had
Hmmm. ZSA has sent out review units and free units to some keyboard influencers. Ben Vallick for one got a Voyager from them and his video on it is the main reason I bought one.
Didn't get to try it, but lots of people report an easier layout, especially for smaller palms, easier thumb cluster and an overall better feeling. My issue with it is the fact that it can't be tented...
Myea though not necessarily a bubble but instead of average user you look at spectrum of words. There are peeps that type 200+ wpm. Depends on your reference point
Ummm thanks 😅 It's not bad, but not special either.. I'd consider myself fast if I'd be able to go for 130+ for an entire minute. The test in the video is 15 sec... not that big of a deal
Interesting! How does that work? You can automatically differentiate and use it only when you need line motions and for everything else you have a numpad?
@@devopstoolbox line jumps are usually a single digit or 1+something which is short and easy while typing floats and integers covers the whole spectrum plus the "." for floats, making the numpad more convenient. Usually its not an issue to differentiate each use case as typing an actual number already requires a bit of premeditation
Getting better and more expensive. Soon, split magnetic slim ero-keyboards with unlimited configurability will be under 100 western banknotes. Moonlander will be in museums only.
True. But, if you have time and energy to lister to the founder, he outlines everything, including pricing, why they do certain things and it all clicks. They work on very low margins to ensure you get a solid product that can last for years.
@@devopstoolbox No doubt and kudos for all the hard work. So many talented people in the industry. They all open new horizons, set new standards, both in hardware and software.
Which keyboard will be good for a car? South of AEKII ALPS-based keyboard das keyboard BADASS 4 Cherry MX is my favorite, however I would like to learn about a good split keyboard.
@@devopstoolbox I have 2 iPads for operational and navigation, 1 Galaxy for stage 4 tuning, and Raspberry Pi installed in the car; the display is a Kenwood DNR992RVS.
I don't just change an entire layout. It's an ever-moving project. I'd probably switch a key or two every couple of weeks so it's pretty easy to get used to
how were you able to set multiple keystrokes to the double-tap function of backspace? unless im just totally spacing out rn its not letting my do that.
it's just one setting - a single tap would send backspace signal, and a double tap sends it with option (alt) making it delete an entire word. I really can't live without this single binding
@devopstoolbox Not really. I’ve adjusted the tapping term to minimize the lag. For home row mods 250ms works well for me, and I use a shorter tapping term of 150ms for the layers on my thumb clusters. This avoids any noticeable delay for my use case
@@devopstoolbox The biggest advantage is concave shape, it really helps to reach all keys that are normally hard to, especially on pinkies. With glove 80 I can even reach for number rows which I couldn't do with moonlander without a stretch. Also I think that software for glove 80 ZMK is much more powerful thank Oryx (home row mods) but on the other hand Oryx is much simpler to use and configure. So overall typing experience on glove 80 is much better for me that it was on moonlander and if I needed new keyboard I would go again for glove 80
Love oryx, HATE the moonlander, Worst thumb cluster on the market. Try a Glove80, Kinesis Advantage 360 or a Charybdis. Once you go curved you will never want to go back.
Definitely interested. I don't like the kinesis with its regid setup. Is the glove 80 as flexible as the moonlander? And yea, the thumb cluster is for sure the weak link here
I heard the founder say that if you're shorter than 1.85 cm you should probably go for it's smaller sibling - the voyager. I'm no where near that height, but I have relatively large hands. You would probably do better with RSI-oriented boards. Going to try a couple famous ones on the channel soon so stay tuned...
I had the Moonlander but the MX switches were a real pain. Voyager is a much better option for most thanks to the Choc switches, but my preference is for a 34 key Urchin, which also uses Chocs
@ I used them on my Moonlander for about 6 months, they are way slower and feel like a keyboard from the 90s. Take a typing speed test on MX switches and then chocs, the latter are way faster and give you less strain and fatigue.
Man, all these AI-generated images make me nauseous...
Yeah it’s a hit and miss with these. Thanks for the feedback
it also gives a cheap feel to the video imo
try midjourney instead of chatgpt, images are much nicer
How to tell your audience you do not care about putting any effort into visual elements of your videos:
It becomes a distraction.
I'll tune in next week for the new productivity machine you found after a decade + 7 days
Same
🤣
You are right about ZSA, I just purchased The Voyager and they sent me a personal email regarding some of the things I requested and responded to my feedback, what a great company! Great content regarding the Moonlander, this was definitely one of my top picks, you have a great setup too with that mounting system.
🙏
My main issue with moving to a split keyboard - is that I feel that it will *limit* my flexibility. I don't want to get used to a keyboard like the moon lander, just to suffer when I need to work on a laptop somewhere. And I don't want to carry my keyboard around with me everywhere...
I am a big fan of the 75 layout, and consider moving to a 60 percent layout.
I would be happy to hear your thoughts about how this limits the flexibility (or not)
in my experience that makes no difference. i have a split keyboard on my desk at home and at work, but still type on my laptops builtin keyboards at any other place without issues or loss of speed.
for comparison: i do struggle switching between language specific keylayouts.
After some time I was quiet quick again on my Laptop keyboard. But you really can feel that the "Standard" layout is just not made for human hands. But typing feels good and actually the split keyboard made me a better standard typer too. Only programming is super annoying because my layers are so perfect that I instantly feel the pain again. Especially on a German QWERTZ layout :D I would say just go for it and you will see that it is pretty easy to switch between laptop and split keyboard. I always tell my friends it is like riding a steering a bike or a car. The interface is so different the brain can easily adapt with a bit of work :)
I was worried about the same issue. IMO, while the moonlander does come with a travel case, it's a bit too much for carrying but definitely doable. If I travelled a lot, I'd get the voyager.
When I travel now, I don't bother with a keyboard at all, or just pack the nuphy. This answers your first question - I have no problem switching back and forth. I'm quicker on the moonlander but I'm definitely fine with the laptop's kb if I have to use it.
Smaller keyboards like the voyager and others can sit on top of the computer's keyboard which is also efficient in space so you may want to explore this option.
As for learning to type on a split - yeah, it's something to learn, but it's really not a big deal. 2-3 days and you're good to go. after a week or two you'd forget this was even an issue. especially if you're already touch typing!
Thank you all for your valuable information and experiences. I might try to give it a go 😊
DW it's not that big a deal, it's like riding a bike, you never forget once you learn, you brain switches in seconds.
now its time for you to go down the "ben vallack" rabbit hole and go down to a 16 key and come back up
Haha I went there 😅 if you look closely it even shows on the oryx profiles I have saved ;)
I love my Moonlander. It's my first ergo split keyboard and I've never even felt the need to try another...although I would eventually like to try a board with concavity.
Same here
@@devopstoolbox I have the moonlander & the glove 80 and personally for me the glove 80 is a nicer experience. I don't have large hands and I constantly felt rotating my hand slightly to reach for the pinky (Q & P). The concave effect helps with a natural position. I do like the customization more on the moonlander of hotswapping my keys and the overall build quality.
My dream board would be a concave keyboard like the glove 80 - flat keycaps - topre keys (yes they are SOOOOO NICE) and the build quality of the zsa voyager (robust) - with good tenting abilities (don't like both the glove 80 & the moonlander standard tenting mechanisms)
I have small pinkies and my solution with the Moonlamder was to move the pinky keys one row down, it’s perfect
Kinesis Advantage user of 15+ years here: once you go contoured, there’s no going back to a flat board. I mean, I’ll do it if I have to, but I won’t like it.
The Advantage 360 feels like tank. I _have_ customized my setup with supplemental tenting and metal key caps, though. I expect this to be the last keyboard I buy, unless there is some catastrophic electronic failure.
Great video! Was waiting for this video! I have a moonlander myself and you gave me some ideas for my config! Cheers
I have a Voyager from ZSA and love it. It's my first split and columnar keyboard and I didn't realize how much of a difference that makes to my typing comfort. It is an investment for sure, and took a bit of time to learn the layout, but it's been a very positive experience.
totally
I have the ZSA Voyager and it's absolutely fantastic! I love this company, how it operates, the quality of their products, and their attention to detail and to customer satisfaction. It's sort of rare to see nowadays to be frank.
100%! The voyager sound like the better version of the moonlander for smaller palms. My only worry was the tenting (or lack thereof) and no wrist support
I’ve been wondering ever since I started watching your videos what keyboard you use… I had even searched for it on my own with no success! Thanks for sharing your selection and the journey that brought you here.
Still I prefer Dygma Defy or Dygma Raise 2 as they are split keyboards and wireless. Defy has keys spaced similarly with finger lengths in mind. They are also programmable with led backlight and underglow with integrated tilting.
I bought them to get my writing on keyboard healthier.
Have a great day!
Going to try the defy pretty soon.
With regards to wireless - while it's not THAT big of a deal for me, I would like to try it out.
ZSA is very strict about it - they don't want their product's life to be determined by battery length and does admirable IMO
@devopstoolbox Dygma did it differently they use off shelf batteries so you can replace them by yourself and they are pretty cheap.
gahhh the perks of being a youtuber! dang that thing is awesome!
"I'm not a fast typist, but can type 100 words per minute on the moonlander..."
I am a fast typist, but can only hit 80 wpm on my best days.
Thanks for the video. I currently use the Voyager, but am intrigued w the Moonlander. I love the Voyager, but wish it had 1 additional thumb button.
Do note that the moonlander keys are further away making them suitable for people with xl palms - ZSA's founder rule of thumb is "over 180 cm in height.
As for speed - everything is relative, but when you see other famous youtubers, not necessarily software devs, do 150 randomly, it makes you wonder
omg flipping the switches on edge of the bottom row, that's amazing. i even write b and n with thumbs so i flipped both sides. thanks for that
I kept "scratching" my thumbs against the edges of the keycaps for so long, my brain would register this annoyance that I was never actually conscious of... one day I was like "WHY THE HELL IS THIS KEY UPSIDE DOWN??" and flipped it.
Never went back!
My first mechanical keyboard was a planck from ZSA 5 years ago and I thought I'd use that forever until I tried split keyboard with concavity few years later. Now I just use my planck for the occasional gaming.
Cool video!
My keyboard journey just ended building 3x6 dactyl and tbk mini :)
😮
Nice keyboards! I agree with the idea that split keyboards with "keywells" are truly the most ergonomic for typing. IBM Model M and Kinesis were right in that.
Custom dactyl manuform kbs I believe are endgame because of the customizations you can do. I think the glove80 is possibly the closest off-the-shelf option, but it's just not my taste.
another good one. Looking forward to the next video. I have been struggling with my neovim for basic writing. Things like spellcheck and word wrapping.
Check out the video I made on writing setup / note takers setup!
After playing with lots of kbs, i have settled with advantage 360 wired one. I like moonlander, but the concave structure of 360 helped alot. I can actually in a way touch type😂.
Testing the dygma now, with a smaller layout, and the glove80 is waiting on my desk (concaved) let's see how it goes... funny enough, I didn't test the advantage at all. Considered the best when it comes to comfort but not configs...
@@devopstoolbox glove80 is my daily driver. It replaced my moonlander.
The moonlander is really great.
Since I have small hands however, and I like layouts, I switched to the Voyager. Lower profile, less keys that are slightly closer, small changes but I find it way more comfortable.
That's highly subjective, that being said.
How do you like the low profile as far as typing goes?
@devopstoolbox I like it better for typing, but I might be biased since I was used to use a chicklet keyboard (Logitech MC Keys) before the moonlanderM. I used the Moonlander for a year before buying the Voyager (a year ago, so I used them both the same amount of time) and during this time I always kinda missed the low profile. With the Voyager I also changed the switches for the lightest linear switches I could find and it works better for me, pretty much instantly.
My Master Forge keyboard arrives in a few days !
Seeing how it looks would be enough to pick your interest :)
HAHA yea that's a step I don't know if I can take.... Super interested to know whether this is actually an improvement or something that's close to impossible to get used to..
I have purchased one and found a pretty nice setup, but i went back to my normal keyboard because:
1. My hands are small and i cab only use the two nearest thumb keys
2. The leftmost and rightmost columns require me to use my pinky fingers to type them (p, q, a, z...) and i just cannot get used to it. I can barely get used to typing with my ring fingers though that's bearable
3. I have tried just using my ring finger for both pinky finger keys and ring finger keys but i invariably found my hand had to contort for some key combinations
I love the wide shoulder typing. I love not having to stretch my hands to type a number bigger then 5. I love the thumb clusters. I am so sad that i can't get used to it....
I'm with you on the thumb cluster!
As for the pinky, there's no way around it at least for me, I had to learn to type correctly.
Either that, or switch to another keyboard layout that can suit your style
perhaps a corne keyboard might be interesting to you? their thumbcluster is way closer and their layout is way smaller as well.
Few weeks ago i decided to build split keyboard myself: go through the process of creating pcb, case, soldering, etc. All of the components will arrive soon. Hope this will go well. Wish me luck c:
Come back and tell me how it goes!
In his interview, Erez (ZSA founder) explained that this is how ZSA was founded - providing users who wanted the finished product without having to go through the process of building it on their own :)
@@devopstoolbox Sure!
All of my prev keebs were prebuilt, i've never even bought a hotswap one. But i LOVE configuring things (the reason i've visited your channel). And the ability to configure my own keyboard interested me too much.
I don't blame anyone who use a prebuilt one: corne, moonlander, voyager and sofle are amazing (on videos). I've found an Erez's podcast, will watch it later.
Love ur content
Can really recommend Gateron Zero Degree switches. I prefer silents, and those made my Moonlander feel like a grand piano.
They sound smooth!
I only miss Hall effect switches, that's all.
The only thing left for me to switch from my Wooting
moonlander is terrible for gaming, all ortho keyboards are...
One of these days he'll discover glove80...
It's always been on my radar... how do you think it compares?
@@devopstoolbox well, its selling point is the curved key-well and it is the key that makes it stand out from the others. The fingers curl naturally over it and you almost don't need to move your hand at all to reach any key. The thumb cluster is also superior in my opinion, but that's probably thing of the preference.
Another point is low profile CHOC keys. I was a bit wary of them before I bought glove80, now I don't want any other keys even if I move from glove80 in the future.
What was one of the selling points for me was its light weight - it is build to be mounted and light weight lets you go with cheap mounting solutions without worrying about the keyboard being too heavy. Combined with low profile keys, you don't need to apply too much force to type.
That's just my subjective take, though, I guess you'd need to try it to see what I mean. I've seen people renting those for test drives on the glove80 discord, there's also soldering service if you want a non-standard key switch option (however, the default choices seem to be great, at least for me... I haven't caught on the "choose the keyboard by its sound" fad just yet...)
Oh, and it runs on ZMK firmware, so you can customize it however you like, even to a point where you can compile it from source, meaning you can build your own functionality if you find the default customization options lacking.
@@devopstoolbox The glove was my first split keyboard. It's great! Very comfortable. You won't really be able to improve the sound of the keys as they're low profile because of the curvature of the board. The thumb cluster gives 6 keys which is awesome although one on each side is slightly tricky to hit. Flashing a layout is really easy and the I think the build quality is good. Also have a numpad layer on the right side :)
I got one since almost a year and it's amazing. First thing I noticed when I used it for the first time is that I didn't know how to type properly with two hands and all the fingers.
Hey - Your idea to turn the keycaps got me thinking. I have just turned the keycaps around on my upper row above the home keys as well as the G and H keys (on US layout). It seems to just click for me. Typing speed has increased 10WPM on my moonlander that I am still breaking in. Thank you!
I see in a recent video that you've moved on to another keyboard, but I prefer the UFK over the moonlander. The moonlader's keys are pretty far apart from each other
Yep, testing the defy for the last few weeks - the video is coming, and I'm also going to test the glove and other kbs. Totally agree about the moonlander keys being slightly too much and made for xl palms
Gateron yellows sound great!
After the lubing they're much nicer right?!
Why a moonlander over something like Dygma Defy? I use that, and i could perhaps see some argument about the thumb cluster being more comfortable (i haven't use the moonlander so i dunno), but from a productivity perspective it has the same benefits, just more action buttons
Going to test the defy soon. Why the moonlander? basically I was hooked to ZSA from the start - how they present stuff, their content and obviously reviews I found online.
I do think the moonlander is a big animal for large hands, and while I'm going more than ok, the thumb cluster is only 50% relevant for me (I'm hardly using the red huge triangles and the bottom thumb keys are probably pressed twice a day.
So with the defy on the way I do expect to feel a more ergonomic thumb option!
I'm curious how people use the mice with these fancy keyboards. Whenever I look at how it limits movement, I think that most of my movement comes from the mouse, so I'm curious if there is a keyboard like the Zsa or glove that incorporates a trackpad or mouse into the design.
There is, but I really *really* don't like the idea of having one...
If you're not into mouse mode (I'm not), just reach our to your mouse.
I found out that when the keyboard is flat it's nice to have the mouse in between the 2 pieces. when it's tented - I place it to the right of the right side...
@@devopstoolbox It's just spend $300 for a keyboard to not move your hands and then spend a lot of time moving your hands for the mouse. I'm really curious about the HHKB studio with the Thinkpad pen nub for this reason.
Amazing video!!
Nice video, however saying that the HHKB has a "normal" layout is not accurate. The way the function key works and the position of the arrow keys is quite unique, which is one of the reasons the layout is so beloved.
Also, the hhkb layout come with the ctrl key in the caps lock key slot by default, so you do not need to remap it.
Yep you're right. My intention was the staggered layout. The missing arrow keys + function + ctrl had so much impact on me that I address them as "standard" 😅
Where did you find the "mute" keycaps which are esesntially blank keys? I would like to do the same to my moonlander. Great video btw!
I love my moonlander. I do want to go to a lower profile switch though with the same number of keys.
Yep, same here, I'd love to try something else for a split. I still love my moonlander and the endless options it provides. The typing experience isn't it's best feature but I can forgive that...
The Moonlander saved me from RSI, with it I can easily crank 10hrs without pain. Whenever I do get pain or feel fatigue even with the Moonlander, it's a sign I need to stop coding and get out of the house 😅
love your channel BTW been a subscriber for a while
Thanks! 🙏
I agree on the split keyboard. I started with a ergodox, but now am on a bastardkb charybdis. Which i really enjoy. Trackball took some time to learn to love.
Will try the double tap to delete mod. Currently trying homerow mods which im not totalt sold on yet.
Same. Tried homerow mods but the small lag killed me.
Might give it another go sometime as I'm still not solid with my shifts on the thumbs
What is confusing for me in HHKB is that they say that customization is possible only with Windows app. So, if you have Linux or Mac, you need to find a Win machine first to set the keyboard up...
Never had a windows machine and changed whatever I wanted on the HHKB with karabiner - karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/
@@devopstoolboxgood to know!
Splitkb Elora is my choice to date, though they have a new one in the works the Halcyon.
Looks nice! but the thumb cluster is awkward isn't it?
O absolutely love my zsa voyager. Ive haf it for about a year in February i just wish they had the tenting platform like they do the moonlander.
Yea that's the one reason I'm not getting it... (yet? 😅)
I wonder if you tried Home row mods ? Looks like you could like it, because how you are using Left and Right Shifts and option + command.
Homerow has its advantages and disadvantages. Advantage - it makes typing more comfortable, Disadvantage - it slows you down a bit due to how the key timings work. You need to be conscious of when the key is held down before pressing another key and release it in time if you need the key sequence that works for homerow. I've been on homerow mods for a long time now but I find myself going back to dedicated function keys (shift/ctrl/alt/super) I still use f j as homerow shift keys, but for quick shortcuts, nothing beats a dedicated ctrl/alt keys when coding.
@ seeing that people can have decent speed using HRM, looks like a lot depends on held timing configuration. Although i agree that you have to be more conscious. About a year started to dive into that rabbit hole :)
I want to do it so much but the keystroke lag just doesn't work for me. I promised myself I'd give this another go and change the lag ms...
if you ever wanna go wireless
or even want to connect to your phone or tablet
I will recommend glove 80
or dygma-defy
glove80 is curved well
And Defy is a better keyboard from every other espect
Yeah, it is a thing. I love how ZSA are rigid about this and their reasoning make a lot of sense. But sometimes you just want to work away from cables...
ADM42 looks nice, but too few key IMHO
I've recently switched to split keeb (ergohaven k:03 pro) from tlk (vortex model m ssk) and as for me - 60 keys is good compromise between too much chords to remember and keyboard size
UPD: also, ergohaven planeta as for me looks more reasonable than adm42 exactly because there are 60 keys
I usually love the 60 keys layout (as one can guess baed on the HHKB & Nuphy air 60 choices) so I agree it's ideal.
Yea the ADM is a bit small. But like I mentioned, working under this kind of constraint makes you find creative solutions that sometimes make for a better alternative than what you had
Hmmm. ZSA has sent out review units and free units to some keyboard influencers. Ben Vallick for one got a Voyager from them and his video on it is the main reason I bought one.
Well... I didn't 😅
What do you think about the ZSA Voyager? Looks like the perfect Keyboard for me
Didn't get to try it, but lots of people report an easier layout, especially for smaller palms, easier thumb cluster and an overall better feeling. My issue with it is the fact that it can't be tented...
@@devopstoolbox Makeshift tenting for the voyager :) th-cam.com/video/UIwMTmGk8Lw/w-d-xo.html
Where I can get that red coiled cable for the moonlander?
I hate when someone says "Not a fast typist...just 100 WPM", you live in a bubble, this is a very fast typing speed for normies.
Myea though not necessarily a bubble but instead of average user you look at spectrum of words. There are peeps that type 200+ wpm. Depends on your reference point
Ummm thanks 😅
It's not bad, but not special either.. I'd consider myself fast if I'd be able to go for 130+ for an entire minute.
The test in the video is 15 sec... not that big of a deal
The Moonlander is cool. Try the voyager by the same company. I like it better.
I really want to, but I can't tent it ...
voyager is my fav, but moonlander is a close second.
My only issue with it is that it can't be tented...
I use the top number row mainly for line jumps. Feels faster
Interesting! How does that work? You can automatically differentiate and use it only when you need line motions and for everything else you have a numpad?
@@devopstoolbox line jumps are usually a single digit or 1+something which is short and easy while typing floats and integers covers the whole spectrum plus the "." for floats, making the numpad more convenient. Usually its not an issue to differentiate each use case as typing an actual number already requires a bit of premeditation
Getting better and more expensive. Soon, split magnetic slim ero-keyboards with unlimited configurability will be under 100 western banknotes. Moonlander will be in museums only.
True. But, if you have time and energy to lister to the founder, he outlines everything, including pricing, why they do certain things and it all clicks.
They work on very low margins to ensure you get a solid product that can last for years.
@@devopstoolbox No doubt and kudos for all the hard work. So many talented people in the industry. They all open new horizons, set new standards, both in hardware and software.
Have you tried the Dygma brand, like their Raise or Defy?
It's on its way 😉
I use the primary thumb of my Kinesis the same as you.
Man, I wish the Moonlander was cheaper.
Not a cheap product for sure, but there are more affordable options for splits like the corne
Which keyboard will be good for a car? South of AEKII ALPS-based keyboard das keyboard BADASS 4 Cherry MX is my favorite, however I would like to learn about a good split keyboard.
A car?
If that's serious I'd go for those that can sit on top of your laptop like the nuphy air60 or a split - the voyager
@@devopstoolbox I have 2 iPads for operational and navigation, 1 Galaxy for stage 4 tuning, and Raspberry Pi installed in the car; the display is a Kenwood DNR992RVS.
@@devopstoolbox Hmm, this one looks very flat? No ergonomics what so ever. I'm thinking the cord is important.
With the blank keycaps, how do you learn a new layout? Do you have a cheatsheet pinned up? Or you just keep Oryx open, or what?
I don't just change an entire layout. It's an ever-moving project. I'd probably switch a key or two every couple of weeks so it's pretty easy to get used to
@@devopstoolbox ah ok, that's very disciplined of you :) Thanks.
how were you able to set multiple keystrokes to the double-tap function of backspace? unless im just totally spacing out rn its not letting my do that.
its just mod + backspace. i wouldnt overwrite double tap backspace tho, because thats actually something you need...
it's just one setting - a single tap would send backspace signal, and a double tap sends it with option
(alt) making it delete an entire word. I really can't live without this single binding
@@devopstoolbox how do delete 2 letters quickly then? seems like youve removed a pretty common use case
I prefer homerow mods on my voyager, but oryx is awesome.
aren't you bothered with the lag that comes with a dual purpose key?
@devopstoolbox Not really. I’ve adjusted the tapping term to minimize the lag. For home row mods 250ms works well for me, and I use a shorter tapping term of 150ms for the layers on my thumb clusters. This avoids any noticeable delay for my use case
Moonlander and imap jj gang here
Glove 80, I had moonlander but glove is much better and I would not go back
Really? 👀
How would you say they compare? What's better with the glove80?
@@devopstoolbox The biggest advantage is concave shape, it really helps to reach all keys that are normally hard to, especially on pinkies. With glove 80 I can even reach for number rows which I couldn't do with moonlander without a stretch. Also I think that software for glove 80 ZMK is much more powerful thank Oryx (home row mods) but on the other hand Oryx is much simpler to use and configure. So overall typing experience on glove 80 is much better for me that it was on moonlander and if I needed new keyboard I would go again for glove 80
The moonlander is the best!
You can make it into whatever you want it to be!
Stenography and the built in mouse mode are my favorite features!
Love oryx, HATE the moonlander, Worst thumb cluster on the market. Try a Glove80, Kinesis Advantage 360 or a Charybdis. Once you go curved you will never want to go back.
Definitely interested. I don't like the kinesis with its regid setup. Is the glove 80 as flexible as the moonlander?
And yea, the thumb cluster is for sure the weak link here
Nothing is worse than the Kinesis thumb clusters 😂
@@devopstoolbox not sure why my replies aren’t sticking… but yes it’s extremely flexible. Anything you can do in ZMK you can do on the Glove80.
Dammit, I am serious about coffee
Then we can be friends 🤝
jj for the win
This board destroyed my wrists
I heard the founder say that if you're shorter than 1.85 cm you should probably go for it's smaller sibling - the voyager.
I'm no where near that height, but I have relatively large hands. You would probably do better with RSI-oriented boards. Going to try a couple famous ones on the channel soon so stay tuned...
@@devopstoolbox Yeah, 300 bucks later ... looking forward for the new videos
The AI generated art 🤮
🤷
I had the Moonlander but the MX switches were a real pain. Voyager is a much better option for most thanks to the Choc switches, but my preference is for a 34 key Urchin, which also uses Chocs
What is wrong with MX switches? I seems to me you just can't get use to the travel distance
@ I used them on my Moonlander for about 6 months, they are way slower and feel like a keyboard from the 90s. Take a typing speed test on MX switches and then chocs, the latter are way faster and give you less strain and fatigue.
Pain in what sense? Did you hear the lubed gateron yellows? They're not bad!
It's not topre, but it's not terrible like the stock ones either
@@devopstoolbox they are slower to type on and contribute to more finger strain. Low travel choc switches work much better for me
Too bad there's no premium choc switches, they all feel so cheap
i need one 😭 🥺
You can get one second hand too!
אתה ישראלי?
Nah ! batman ain't it you can't tent it and also no space in between is not something for me!
Moonlander is great though!
Yep, that's why I couldn't made it stick, but the modifiers layout gave me some great ideas
Lofree Edge is slimmer than the Nuphy and has an all around better build.
Oh sweet! I wasn't aware of this one
No AI generated image please.
I have no idea why people hate these so much, but got the message
@@devopstoolbox I love your videos, but the use of those generated images looks very cheap and also nauseating.