Ooh where to start? 1. Kryptonite was incorporated into Superman after being introduced in a radio show 2. The more sympathetic backstory of Mr Freeze from the cartoon becoming canon in the comics 3. OK this one might sound silly- the Ninja Turtles having their own colour bandanas so you can tell them apart
In "Identity Crisis", Brad Meltzer addressed the problem with the supervillains potentially having learned the secret identities of the superheroes during that story where they switched minds
I liked the re-retcon of the Seven Soldiers of Victory. When they were always trying to make it work in main continuity without the Green Arrow and Speedy. Then they just had a time displaced Green Arrow and Speedy to the 1940's as the new retcon, remaking the original SSoV. Dunno why, but he SSoV have been my favourite team, at least conceptually.
Why is the Shade the most interesting character in every story he is in, and yet hardly anyone has heard of him? His appearance in the Stargirl show really felt like he was punching down even being there, yet they still treated him like a B-list character.
I know I wish DC would do more with The Shade and the ShadowLands instead of (Batman whose Dark & Crazy and Evil Dark Superman) Although the Shade's (Or Raven or Obsidian) powers in Batman and his Families' hands would add so much needed teeth to the "Batfam v Superfam" concept DC loves.
@@WannabeWryterPart of the issue is that James Robinson is the go to man for Shade. It’s not that he’s off limits, but one of the few who can write in the Shades voice.
The Spider in that "Shade" book was giving off so much Gaston vibes that I expected his villainous monologue to be in song. Also, I think they had surmised Dr Mid-Nite because of the powerset. His blackout bombs could be confused with the Shade's powers if there are no reliable witnesses available.
And love for opal city. Also that he was doing successful crime at night the golden appearances being fun distrqctions. He even respects Jay from that.
He refers to crime as a joust, I love that. It's sport for him. He's also a lot right stated that the only reason he hasn't taken Over the world it's because he doesn't want to. And with the amount of power he wields he could.
Thing about "evil all along" retcons is, if it wasn't planned in advance, there's good odds there's thought balloons or narration boxes that don't fit the new characterization. But in the 90's, how many people had ever even seen one of the Golden Age Spider comics to be able to tell?
Golden Age stuff is a blast. I think everyone should dabble in reading some Golden Age stuff. It's not always the best or strongest writing (like much of the silver age), but there was a fluidity of concepts that is just.. really good and fun to read. Powers would pop up and then never be mentioned again (like Black Canary's ability to summon canaries to her aid) or just some fascinating concepts that are never fully explored (like the original Black Widow, Claire Voyant). So much cool stuff.. The golden age has some really fertile ground because there wasn't this expectation that it would be a thing, so writers did.. whatever. And then there are just the pure unadultered gems like Golden Age Wonder Woman and all her complexities or the work of Fletcher Hanks and it's bizarre madness.
Actually, when I think about it, the idea that the Spider would have been able to maintain a covert criminal empire while also maintaining a relationship with superheroes by means of loose groupings like the All-Star Squadron is more than viable. The whole idea of the superhero was still forming, new enough that no one had even had the opportunity to be a fake superhero before. It was bound to work for a time the first time because it WAS the first time. The most early of the super groups were essentially clubs of men in their early 20s and younger, guys with yet a lot of boy in them. In those days it seemed almost unthinkable that the entire lot of them not unmask and reveal the real names upon the first meeting. After all, they always immediately got along like brothers from other mothers. Leaving internal security as an afterthought costing a super group grievously was almost inevitable, and the axe landed first on the neck of the Seven Soldiers of Victory. Only group I don't see it taking out is the Justice League -- or the Justice Society if the Batman was a regular member. This original Batman may have been a little less crazy than some of his other-dimensional twinners, but he would be justified into coming up with strategies for taking out his fellow Justice Society members -- because he would be coming up with strategies against their specialties as opposed to the members themselves. The appearance of Edward Clariss, the Rival, would put the Batman on this track. The Flash had a direct bad guy counterpart. What if the Batman had to deal with him or someone like him in the future? What about other enemies who resembled teammates to whatever extent? What about twinners from other dimensions, like the members of the Crime Syndicates of Earth-Three and Earth-3 (and maybe Earth-III for all I know)? There are nearly endless numbers of reasons to prepare means of defense against ones friends on the superhero level. Wanna hear about the best reason of all to be as prepared against your friends as your enemies? Consider this pre-Crisis Silver Age story. The pre-Crisis Earth-One/Earth-Two crossovers were in full swing in all their annual-or-better glory. This year, the Justice Society cross-timed to Earth-One and were hosted on the Justice League satellite headquarters. The whole Thanksgiving celebration was destroyed wholesale with the discovery that Mister Terrific Terry Sloan had been murdered on board ship. I'm not going into a synopsis of the issue or a critique of the murder mystery aspects of the story. No, there's more here in backstory that found more life in more retconning. Here, Mr. Terrific runs up on crimes committed by evil magic user Roger Romaine, who uses the name Spirit King and who possesses an unbreakable mystic hold over a number of souls of people he has murdered (probably ritually). Terrific has no powers, so he calls in the JSA when he sees how out-powered he is. Spirit King holds his own for too long and too well and attracts attention from the Specter, the last member of the JSA the King wanted to see. It takes an almost ridiculously short time for the Specter to decide to send Romaine directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Romain dies dead, and that appears to be that. It isn't. Romaine's power over the spirits he's already enchanted remains unbroken and he can draw from that power to reach Earth, possess the body of Flash Jay Garrick, ride it as a friend into the supposedly super-secure JLA satellite, find a way to be alone with Terrific and to kill him using Jay's powers and hands. Think how often Jay Garrick wished like hell Terry didn't trust him and invented ways to fight him. And why didn't Terry do those things, after the advents of not only Clariss the Rival but also Thawne the Reverse-Flash? How long would he be lucky enough not to deal with spillover from that? If Terry had been ready for Clariss or Thawne, he would have been ready for Jay. After ANYTHING to do with ANYONE like the Crime Syndicate of America, plans to take down the CSA should have been made, discussed and revised publicly among them while all should have been made comfortable in creating plans unknown to the others for any and all Crime Syndicators. Anything effective against them would require minimal to no adaptation to suit them to the appropriate Justice League members. All of this preparation could be considered a double-edged sword, and so it could be -- but the price of not doing this preparation is to remain willfully unprepared. As poor Terry Sloan learned to his and Jay Garrick's everlasting sorrow, lack of preparation is a lot like suicide. You do get dead at the end. So the whole thing all comes together, with the Spider being able to strike at the Seven Soldiers of Victory from within and removing them from the world for decades through the severe time/space disruptions set off by the destruction of another villain's high-energy weapon construct. They weren't killed, but the Spider had little reason to know and less to complain. He beat the Seven Soldiers, only to fall at the hands of the Shade. The Soldiers themselves were retrieved by teams of JLA/JSA members whose went back into time looking for the Soldiers so that they could build another of the weapon that destroyed the villain's construct with which to destroy a new, more modern version. After doing so, they split up as they were relegated to the present rather than being returned to the past. And all of this goodness is the result of someone taking a truly "nothing" character like the Spider and giving him depth with emotional darkness along with the light of understandable cause. See? It IS possible to get this right!
Thomas Halloway is also the real name of the golden age Marvel character the Angel, who debuted a year earlier. The original Spider was a pulp hero who debuted in 1933.
I think the combination of it being The Flash and The Rouges having respect for each other, mixed with a Villain discovering a worse Villain and doing the right thing for the wrong reasons that makes this feel...wholesome?
I'll never forget the time one of the Rogues wondering if the Flash had some ability to trick them into playing his game, staying in a town where they were certain to be defeated when they could leave Central City and become kings somewhere else.
I just love when forgotten Golden Age heroes get brought to the spotlight. Specially the ones that have entered the Public Domain. The Spider in general now feels like an evil version of the Green Hornet, now that I think about it.
The All-Star Squadron wasn't an exclusive team, basically all the DC golden age heroes during WWII were on the team, so of any team it make sense that a villain could sneak their way in.
I think it would have been a good retcon if they hadn't already (a) retconned the Golden Age Wonder Woman's adventures into having happened to a combination of Fury I and Miss America who took her place and (b) the post-Crisis Wonder Woman being given this brand new name of "Wonder Woman" by a publicist when she came to Man's World without any mention of "Oh, by the way, that's the same name as this other superhero woman who was around back in the 1940's and had a costume a lot like yours."
It was... a very weird retcon and it didn't really work especially as Polly became more involved with the JSA and her attitude wasn't really in line with golden age Wonder Woman. So it was very awkward all around. I get why they did it.. but one of the main reasons for doing it was for Donna to be Wonder Girl before there was a Wonder Woman and then they made Donna into a magical clone of Wonder Woman.. so it was just.. odd.
@@JanArrah I mean, it's all semantics anyway. In the post-Crisis DC Universe, Helena came first chronologically even if Lyta was the first one to see print in the comics. So, the answer to the question of "Who is the first Fury?" depends on what we mean by "first".
Sasha, I grew up in a town about halfway between Chicago and St. Louis, and everyone in and around that area pronounce it Saint LOO-iss. The song you reference is written from the point of view of someone who doesn't live in the area but is telling his friends that he's going to the World's Fair in that far-off city, so maybe they'll see each other there. The only time I've ever heard it pronounced St. LOO-ee is from when it's rhymed with "Louie," as in the song. It's sort of like, if you wanted to create a rhyme with San Diego, you might write a lyric that goes "We go San DEE-go!" Mispronouncing it to force the rhyme. However, in another genre entirely -- the Larry Niven Ringworld novels -- the main character, Luis Wu, was assumed to be pronounced "LOO-iss" up until, in the second novel in the series, another character (Chmee) is hear to rumble "loo-ee woo" when he sees Luis again after a couple of decades. At that point, it became obvious that the author intended the name to be pronounced "LOO-ee"... so, it's sort of an American pronunciation conundrum. 🙂
I think the existence of the All-Star Squadron was one of the best retcons. It also gave us other retcons like answering "why did Sandman change his costume" or "what's the deal with the Freedom FIghters on Earth-X?" I also did sort of like the retcon that tied the two Golden Age Manhunters together from Millennium, though it also gave rise to one of my least favorite retcons (Laurel Kent, who had been shot causing her to bleed, was actually a robot this whole time!).
Laurel Kent being a robot was silly, although her bleeding is no surprise, since presumably she had a very good simulation of a mixed Terran/Kryptonian physique, in order to fool Dr. Gym'll at her physicals.
@@CasuallyComics Wasn't it an issue of Hawkman where Spider switched to his other eye? Incidentially, they retconned the retcon and removed the Spider from the Seven Soldiers history. Instead, Oliver Queen and Roy Harper go back in time so Green Arrow and Speedy remain as members of the Seven Soldiers.
Just delightful, Ms. Sasha. As a Robinson STARMAN fan, perhaps you should look to Robinson's amazing use of the Red Bee. That story (it was in an annual) actually made old man me emotional - the way that the Bee relates his meeting with Ted Knight, Starman. Just wonderful characterization. That, the Shade, and Robinson's treatment of Hourman were my favorite parts of that masterpiece run.
When killing Alias the Spider, the Shade should of said "Like all the other Ludlow, you've... missed your shot at killing me", nothing kills slower than a good dad pun lol
Thoughts: 1. Yes, more on Golden Age Alias the Spider. 2. The yellow and baby blue combo is really good. Wish they were used more in comics. 3. Favorite retcon. Green Lantern/Parallax...and the whole Geoff John´s GL run. Like Nekron and all that goes with it. 4. Can´t wait for you to do videos on that Starman run.
Head canon: the “Spider is a criminal” can work in a “Godfather” sense, in that Spider may see the Axis as being a threat to his own operations if left to their own devices. You can also throw in influences of the “Green Hornet” attitude of a hero pretending to be a criminal, except in this case there’s no pretence (at least in the modern era).
Your not wrong about there being many heroes named "The Spider" because when I looked at the title I thought this video was going to be about the pulp hero "The Spider" with his cool hat, cloak and crazy sci-fi gun in his modern rendition. Then I saw the thumbnail and said wait a minute that's not him, what is this? Still a golden age character called "The Spider" just not the one I know about.
There was a bit of a resurgence in around 2005 anime industry of those kinds of pulp heroes resembling Scarlet Pimpernel and Judex, which pretty much failed but produced a lot of cult classics. Like The Big O, Daughter of 20 faces, and Skull Man (remake). It was already at the time when Japan was way into trying to break into the western markets with material that was to cross the culture gap, similarly to how comic books were breaking into the culture of mainsteram that previously thought them too kiddy. It a pretty weird mix of themes and tones in the way they are somewhat teenage-friendly rather than blatantly for adults, but not "family friendly" that skews younger. Arguably they have their origins in The Golden Bat, which is arguably a superhero predating Superman, and itself referenced in stuff like the boy wielding the golden bat in Paranoia Agent by Satoshi Kon. Which is a thriller drama pastiche of pop culture subverting the character of upstanding citizens.
@@sboinkthelegday3892 Oh that's some lovely deep history, only bits of which I knew about, and I'm enjoying looking into what I didn't now! Have you considered, I dunno, video essays with this knowledge base? ^_^
Geoff Johns has done great retcons. My favourite has to be, retcon of the green lantern weakness to the colour ‘yellow’. He retconned so it wasn’t the colour ‘yellow’, exactly but, a weakness to fear as the killer of willpower, and fear being represented by the colour ‘yellow’ on the emotional spectrum.
Another, maybe this is more a reimagining? that I thought was kind of clever, was Mr Mind turning out to be merely a larval form of a much more dangerous and powerful creature, the Hyperfly.
Not exactly a retcon but my favorite was how they finally explained how Wanda's kids were reincarnated as Speed and Wiccan. As it turns out, her kids' souls jumped to different points in time with the help of the Parallax Stone/M'kraan Crystal shard, to evade Mephisto. I loved it because it now made sense how they were reincarnated into children that were too old to be Wanda's kids.
To be fair, the All Star Squadron had seventy members, and like five archers so they couldn't keep track of their membership AND fight World War 2 spies and saboteurs. It's easier for four or five Avengers to notice the Swordsman committing shenanigans.
My favorite retcon is the teen titans 2003 one where they make superboy half luthor. I think it fits in perfect into a kinda week spot in his origin and adds such a rich new layer ot every one involved
It might be worth looking at Grant Morrison’s take on The Spider in his 7 Soldiers series. He follows on from Robinson’s Spider with another descendent.
I mainly know Shade from when Stargirl inherited the equipment and support characters from the Starman comics run you are talking about. His appearance in the Kevin Smith Green Arrow is also just the best.
Wow! You are amazing! To find someone who is such a fan of these stories these days?!? So, the Starman series (and its predecessor , spirituality and otherwise); The Golden Age, is my all time FAVOURITE DC Comics story/series! Due to its nature (and it's author, James Robinson) it is also my ABSOLUTE favourite ret-con story. Thanks for this, and I'm all for ANY vids you want to do on anything even tangentially connected to James Robinson and Tony Harris's STARMAN 💫
Another great video Sasha! I think a retcon I really like is Alan Moore changing it so that Swamp Thing isn’t really Alec Holland. It opened the door up for some really interesting exploration of him as a character. Also, as someone who grew up in the St Louis area it is pronounced with the “s” like Lewis just in case it ever comes up again
I'd love to see an occasional history of some lesser known comic publishers from years past such as Harvey and Gold Key. These types of subjects are really fascinating to me.
I mostly know Gold Key for The Mighty Sampson. It's their least famous property, Solar/Magnus/Turok/etc. got the name recognition, but holy crap was Sampson a ton of fun!
I didn't really know about the golden age spider but I love that theyve had the dude who play peter Parker in the 90s cartoon voice the 2nd spider in cartoons
I love the art in that Shade issue. Having him in fifties rather than Victorian clothes really works. He still feels in character. The Surpriser can shoot rays from his fingers, and nobody knows that they'll do each time? That's the same power as Akton in cult bad science fiction movie Starcrash! I'd like to think James Robinson saw it and that was a homage. But I'd be surprised....
Speaking of retcons I'd like to see what you think of _Marvel Universe_ from 1998, I really liked it as a way to weave some Golden Age monster stories together (also establish Makkari of the Eternals as a Golden Age hero)
A Good Retcon I can think of off my head would probably be The Captain America of the 1950s; It help it explain that an impostors had used Cap's and Bucky's names to battle communist and everyone else, after they were both believed to have been Killed during the Second World War.
17:52 "Two whole sets of heroes and he's running a criminal enterprise". Don't overthink the whole All-Star Squadron thing. The point of the All-Star Squadron was that EVERY active World War II era superhero was a member of the All-Star Squadron. Most played no significant part of any adventure, especially the Quality Comics heroes (such as The Spider) who were then sent from Earth-2 over to Earth-X where almost all of them died, with only the handful known as the Freedom Fighters managing to survive. Except for the regular members who appeared in the actual comic stories, none of the All-Star Squadron members spent much time doing anything with the group. And even the Seven Soldiers didn't do much. They had a small number of stories before they were cancelled. And the main point of having the Spider in the Seven Soldiers is for the more imporrant retcon: after Crisis, there was no World War II era Green Arrow and Speedy, so who was the archer in the Seven Soldiers? It turns out it was the Spider and Stuff the Chinatown Kid (and/or Billy Gunn) getting a promotion to being as important as Speedy, so that he got counted as one of the Seven but Wing still did not because he needed to be the Eighth member for the JLA/JSA/SSoV story.
Noticed the eye shadows love that it seems to be intentional and they match the Spider’s costume colors. The plot twists seemed to really work. I think for some reason the short shorts work better for the costume than the pants.
Storming the docks? Naaaaw, that's just an urban legend. Just liek the one about people dressing up as wizards, staying up all night, and camping out on the sidewalk in front of a bookstore demanding the release of the next book in the series the MINUTE it goes on sale!!! Oh wait... (Like she said, some things never change!) 🤣🤣🤣
Please do the retrospective on the Spider / Alias the Spider…any retrospective from you is always entertaining & appreciated…hope you also look into the character I commented on in your Kofi …Keep Up The Outstanding Work Sasha 🖖🏾
The Spider’s connection to the Seven Soldiers is likely not canon anymore since the Star Girl Spring Break Special from 2021 retconned a time displaced Green Arrow and Speedy to haven been part of the team.
Geoff Johns is going hard with his new golden age, and even more series are spinning out of it. I'm actually excited for the Wesley Dodds Sandman one by Robert Venditti.
I'm sure there's someone out there whos favorite character was the Spider, and, when they read or heard about this story, it broke their heart and killed them. (We are talking about someone really old.)
He's in front of a fireplace in an otherwise dark room. So you have the light from the fire and everything else is being cast in shadows. It would be like if I went up against The Shade in an entirely dark room, but I have a flashlight, it's not enough lol I bought myself a good 3 minutes and The Spider bought himself a monologue and only that because The Shade was interested in what he had to say.
I'm always up for an obscure character/topic deep dive, so count me in for that Spider retrospective. While you're at it, I'll take retrospectives for The Shade and Starman too, please. I've never actually heard of this Spider, but I do remember reading about a pulp comic strip character from the '30s with the same name. All I remember is that he used to mark his captured foes with a spider stamp.
This makes me wonder how many other Golden Age mass produced characters that exist could be turned into interesting stories, shorts or not, and what we could see out of that Also I only knew Shade from the Justice League cartoon series, and didn't know he was this interesting, neat.
Well, Marvel's "The Twelve" series focuses on, um, twelve (duh) such superheroes. If you like the Shade and haven't read The Twelve, well, I recommend it. Also, Project Superpowers does a lot with some public domain heroes.
Great video. Appreciate the shade being cast on Green Arrow's name. People making fun of Oliver is one of my favorite things. Speaking of which, the Shade was the best part of the Stargirl show. Would love to see more of him.
Shame that we got the only Flash/Shade interaction in the series finale. I would love to see John Wesley Shipp and Jonathan Cake reprise their roles even if it's in an animated short.
It's not exactly a retcon, but I'm fascinated reading old stories of current characters where the changes are so huge we've forgotten how they began - Batman killed, Superman couldn't fly, the Hulk was changing on a day/night basis etc. They don't take the old stories and go "so, this here's how this changed"; the change is simply taken and run with.
Hmm. Had not known there was a GA comic character called the Spider that was not based on the pulp. The pulp Spider was basically the Shadow, but the covers were great
First off, I'd like to see a retrospective on the golden age Alias The Spider. Second, one of my favorite retcons is the reveal that Goku, the protagonist of Dragon Ball, being a Saiyan, an alien. He was already seen a strange being by the people off Earth, which included the talking shapeshifting animals. Plus it opened the door for interstellar stories, which is what they do in the next story arc when they go to planet Namek.
A descendent of the Spider showed up in the Morrison Seven Soldiers of Victory. This one rode in a giant mechanical spider and betrayed the team as well
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Share your favourite retcon!
Ooh where to start? 1. Kryptonite was incorporated into Superman after being introduced in a radio show 2. The more sympathetic backstory of Mr Freeze from the cartoon becoming canon in the comics 3. OK this one might sound silly- the Ninja Turtles having their own colour bandanas so you can tell them apart
In "Identity Crisis", Brad Meltzer addressed the problem with the supervillains potentially having learned the secret identities of the superheroes during that story where they switched minds
Batman going back to being Gritty from Campy , largely due to Frank Miller’s Dark Knight 🖖🏾
I liked the re-retcon of the Seven Soldiers of Victory. When they were always trying to make it work in main continuity without the Green Arrow and Speedy. Then they just had a time displaced Green Arrow and Speedy to the 1940's as the new retcon, remaking the original SSoV. Dunno why, but he SSoV have been my favourite team, at least conceptually.
nvm The Spider, when they changed the name of The Shadow Nose to just The Shadow.
*sigh, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?
Why is the Shade the most interesting character in every story he is in, and yet hardly anyone has heard of him? His appearance in the Stargirl show really felt like he was punching down even being there, yet they still treated him like a B-list character.
I know I wish DC would do more with The Shade and the ShadowLands instead of (Batman whose Dark & Crazy and Evil Dark Superman)
Although the Shade's (Or Raven or Obsidian) powers in Batman and his Families' hands would add so much needed teeth to the "Batfam v Superfam" concept DC loves.
Justice League and JLU actually did a great job with his character.
James Robinson actually wrote him on Stargirl.
@@WannabeWryterPart of the issue is that James Robinson is the go to man for Shade. It’s not that he’s off limits, but one of the few who can write in the Shades voice.
@@Lukecash2 James Robinson is a hard act to follow.
The Spider in that "Shade" book was giving off so much Gaston vibes that I expected his villainous monologue to be in song. Also, I think they had surmised Dr Mid-Nite because of the powerset. His blackout bombs could be confused with the Shade's powers if there are no reliable witnesses available.
Really enjoy the concept of the shade as a immortal creature that only acts out of boredom
And love for opal city. Also that he was doing successful crime at night the golden appearances being fun distrqctions. He even respects Jay from that.
He refers to crime as a joust, I love that. It's sport for him.
He's also a lot right stated that the only reason he hasn't taken Over the world it's because he doesn't want to.
And with the amount of power he wields he could.
Thing about "evil all along" retcons is, if it wasn't planned in advance, there's good odds there's thought balloons or narration boxes that don't fit the new characterization. But in the 90's, how many people had ever even seen one of the Golden Age Spider comics to be able to tell?
Shade is everything that Vandal Savage could have been. Immortal, nearly omnipotent and acts only out of a need to act.
I really enjoy Sasha's Gold Age content; her enthusiasm for the subject matter amps up the fun.
Golden Age stuff is a blast. I think everyone should dabble in reading some Golden Age stuff. It's not always the best or strongest writing (like much of the silver age), but there was a fluidity of concepts that is just.. really good and fun to read. Powers would pop up and then never be mentioned again (like Black Canary's ability to summon canaries to her aid) or just some fascinating concepts that are never fully explored (like the original Black Widow, Claire Voyant). So much cool stuff.. The golden age has some really fertile ground because there wasn't this expectation that it would be a thing, so writers did.. whatever. And then there are just the pure unadultered gems like Golden Age Wonder Woman and all her complexities or the work of Fletcher Hanks and it's bizarre madness.
Actually, when I think about it, the idea that the Spider would have been able to maintain a covert criminal empire while also maintaining a relationship with superheroes by means of loose groupings like the All-Star Squadron is more than viable. The whole idea of the superhero was still forming, new enough that no one had even had the opportunity to be a fake superhero before. It was bound to work for a time the first time because it WAS the first time. The most early of the super groups were essentially clubs of men in their early 20s and younger, guys with yet a lot of boy in them. In those days it seemed almost unthinkable that the entire lot of them not unmask and reveal the real names upon the first meeting. After all, they always immediately got along like brothers from other mothers. Leaving internal security as an afterthought costing a super group grievously was almost inevitable, and the axe landed first on the neck of the Seven Soldiers of Victory. Only group I don't see it taking out is the Justice League -- or the Justice Society if the Batman was a regular member. This original Batman may have been a little less crazy than some of his other-dimensional twinners, but he would be justified into coming up with strategies for taking out his fellow Justice Society members -- because he would be coming up with strategies against their specialties as opposed to the members themselves. The appearance of Edward Clariss, the Rival, would put the Batman on this track. The Flash had a direct bad guy counterpart. What if the Batman had to deal with him or someone like him in the future? What about other enemies who resembled teammates to whatever extent? What about twinners from other dimensions, like the members of the Crime Syndicates of Earth-Three and Earth-3 (and maybe Earth-III for all I know)? There are nearly endless numbers of reasons to prepare means of defense against ones friends on the superhero level.
Wanna hear about the best reason of all to be as prepared against your friends as your enemies? Consider this pre-Crisis Silver Age story. The pre-Crisis Earth-One/Earth-Two crossovers were in full swing in all their annual-or-better glory. This year, the Justice Society cross-timed to Earth-One and were hosted on the Justice League satellite headquarters. The whole Thanksgiving celebration was destroyed wholesale with the discovery that Mister Terrific Terry Sloan had been murdered on board ship. I'm not going into a synopsis of the issue or a critique of the murder mystery aspects of the story. No, there's more here in backstory that found more life in more retconning. Here, Mr. Terrific runs up on crimes committed by evil magic user Roger Romaine, who uses the name Spirit King and who possesses an unbreakable mystic hold over a number of souls of people he has murdered (probably ritually). Terrific has no powers, so he calls in the JSA when he sees how out-powered he is. Spirit King holds his own for too long and too well and attracts attention from the Specter, the last member of the JSA the King wanted to see. It takes an almost ridiculously short time for the Specter to decide to send Romaine directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Romain dies dead, and that appears to be that.
It isn't. Romaine's power over the spirits he's already enchanted remains unbroken and he can draw from that power to reach Earth, possess the body of Flash Jay Garrick, ride it as a friend into the supposedly super-secure JLA satellite, find a way to be alone with Terrific and to kill him using Jay's powers and hands.
Think how often Jay Garrick wished like hell Terry didn't trust him and invented ways to fight him. And why didn't Terry do those things, after the advents of not only Clariss the Rival but also Thawne the Reverse-Flash? How long would he be lucky enough not to deal with spillover from that? If Terry had been ready for Clariss or Thawne, he would have been ready for Jay. After ANYTHING to do with ANYONE like the Crime Syndicate of America, plans to take down the CSA should have been made, discussed and revised publicly among them while all should have been made comfortable in creating plans unknown to the others for any and all Crime Syndicators. Anything effective against them would require minimal to no adaptation to suit them to the appropriate Justice League members.
All of this preparation could be considered a double-edged sword, and so it could be -- but the price of not doing this preparation is to remain willfully unprepared. As poor Terry Sloan learned to his and Jay Garrick's everlasting sorrow, lack of preparation is a lot like suicide. You do get dead at the end.
So the whole thing all comes together, with the Spider being able to strike at the Seven Soldiers of Victory from within and removing them from the world for decades through the severe time/space disruptions set off by the destruction of another villain's high-energy weapon construct. They weren't killed, but the Spider had little reason to know and less to complain. He beat the Seven Soldiers, only to fall at the hands of the Shade. The Soldiers themselves were retrieved by teams of JLA/JSA members whose went back into time looking for the Soldiers so that they could build another of the weapon that destroyed the villain's construct with which to destroy a new, more modern version. After doing so, they split up as they were relegated to the present rather than being returned to the past.
And all of this goodness is the result of someone taking a truly "nothing" character like the Spider and giving him depth with emotional darkness along with the light of understandable cause.
See? It IS possible to get this right!
Absolutely.
I admire this kind of storytelling, and it delights me no end that it was done with a couple of my favorite stories from back in the day.
Thomas Halloway is also the real name of the golden age Marvel character the Angel, who debuted a year earlier.
The original Spider was a pulp hero who debuted in 1933.
He was like batman meets dexter
The original Spider is amazing. He's like an even more unhinged version of the Shadow
And wasn't the creator of the Golden Age Marvel Angel also Paul Gustavson, creator of the Spider of this video?
@@dngillikin Yes, he was.
I think Bucky not being dead is one of the best retcons
A video about the Spider would be very cool, but honestly I'm more curious about The Shade, he seems like such a cool character!
I think the combination of it being The Flash and The Rouges having respect for each other, mixed with a Villain discovering a worse Villain and doing the right thing for the wrong reasons that makes this feel...wholesome?
I'll never forget the time one of the Rogues wondering if the Flash had some ability to trick them into playing his game, staying in a town where they were certain to be defeated when they could leave Central City and become kings somewhere else.
I just love when forgotten Golden Age heroes get brought to the spotlight. Specially the ones that have entered the Public Domain.
The Spider in general now feels like an evil version of the Green Hornet, now that I think about it.
You would think everyone would just assume a masked hero shows up must be one of the millionaires in town.
The All-Star Squadron wasn't an exclusive team, basically all the DC golden age heroes during WWII were on the team, so of any team it make sense that a villain could sneak their way in.
Hold on, we're just floss over the name "Crack Comics" with no fanfare?! Where's my Tyrone Biggums comics?!
I always thought Hippolyta as the Golden Age Wonder Woman was a good retcon.
I think it would have been a good retcon if they hadn't already (a) retconned the Golden Age Wonder Woman's adventures into having happened to a combination of Fury I and Miss America who took her place and (b) the post-Crisis Wonder Woman being given this brand new name of "Wonder Woman" by a publicist when she came to Man's World without any mention of "Oh, by the way, that's the same name as this other superhero woman who was around back in the 1940's and had a costume a lot like yours."
It was... a very weird retcon and it didn't really work especially as Polly became more involved with the JSA and her attitude wasn't really in line with golden age Wonder Woman. So it was very awkward all around. I get why they did it.. but one of the main reasons for doing it was for Donna to be Wonder Girl before there was a Wonder Woman and then they made Donna into a magical clone of Wonder Woman.. so it was just.. odd.
@@SimonMoon5 Wouldn't Helena technically be Fury II since she appeared after Lyta?
@@JanArrah I mean, it's all semantics anyway. In the post-Crisis DC Universe, Helena came first chronologically even if Lyta was the first one to see print in the comics. So, the answer to the question of "Who is the first Fury?" depends on what we mean by "first".
@@JanArrah I’m not defending anything anyone has done with Donna Troi since the mid 80s.
Do the comic history of the white canary and how she is different from the arrowverse
I'm a big fan of The Shade and this story was was a great one about him.
It really was well done.
Sasha, I grew up in a town about halfway between Chicago and St. Louis, and everyone in and around that area pronounce it Saint LOO-iss. The song you reference is written from the point of view of someone who doesn't live in the area but is telling his friends that he's going to the World's Fair in that far-off city, so maybe they'll see each other there. The only time I've ever heard it pronounced St. LOO-ee is from when it's rhymed with "Louie," as in the song. It's sort of like, if you wanted to create a rhyme with San Diego, you might write a lyric that goes "We go San DEE-go!" Mispronouncing it to force the rhyme. However, in another genre entirely -- the Larry Niven Ringworld novels -- the main character, Luis Wu, was assumed to be pronounced "LOO-iss" up until, in the second novel in the series, another character (Chmee) is hear to rumble "loo-ee woo" when he sees Luis again after a couple of decades. At that point, it became obvious that the author intended the name to be pronounced "LOO-ee"... so, it's sort of an American pronunciation conundrum. 🙂
Re: Geoff Johns, as Linkara one time said "The man has never met a story he couldn't retcon"
I think the existence of the All-Star Squadron was one of the best retcons. It also gave us other retcons like answering "why did Sandman change his costume" or "what's the deal with the Freedom FIghters on Earth-X?" I also did sort of like the retcon that tied the two Golden Age Manhunters together from Millennium, though it also gave rise to one of my least favorite retcons (Laurel Kent, who had been shot causing her to bleed, was actually a robot this whole time!).
Laurel Kent being a robot was silly, although her bleeding is no surprise, since presumably she had a very good simulation of a mixed Terran/Kryptonian physique, in order to fool Dr. Gym'll at her physicals.
Laurel Kent reboot was.. mandated by Superman stuff and it sucked so much. Laurel Kent was such an amazing character and they just wasted her.
The scene in Starman when he starts training with his other eye to get revenge was LIT.
That was his son, and yes it was awesome!
Ok. It was in the Shade mini.
My bad.
@@CasuallyComics Wasn't it an issue of Hawkman where Spider switched to his other eye? Incidentially, they retconned the retcon and removed the Spider from the Seven Soldiers history. Instead, Oliver Queen and Roy Harper go back in time so Green Arrow and Speedy remain as members of the Seven Soldiers.
@mynardomacaraig2697 lol you see mess!!
First, your makeup is fantastic. Second, I love these random deep dives so much. More Golden Age Madness is always great
They made him Green Hornet played straight.
The spider spun a web of lies.
Wolverine having bone claws with adamantium coating when for a time his claws were full adamantium back when his only mutation was his healing factor.
He always had the "keen animal senses" thing going too.
Just delightful, Ms. Sasha. As a Robinson STARMAN fan, perhaps you should look to Robinson's amazing use of the Red Bee. That story (it was in an annual) actually made old man me emotional - the way that the Bee relates his meeting with Ted Knight, Starman. Just wonderful characterization. That, the Shade, and Robinson's treatment of Hourman were my favorite parts of that masterpiece run.
When killing Alias the Spider, the Shade should of said "Like all the other Ludlow, you've... missed your shot at killing me", nothing kills slower than a good dad pun lol
A good dad fart might.
I'm a little surprised you didn't offer "the Mother of Spiders" as a followup, Sasha!
The best 2 retcons I can think of are 1.) Frank Miller's revamp of Daredevil & 2.) Gray Hulk being a separate character.
Thoughts:
1. Yes, more on Golden Age Alias the Spider.
2. The yellow and baby blue combo is really good. Wish they were used more in comics.
3. Favorite retcon. Green Lantern/Parallax...and the whole Geoff John´s GL run. Like Nekron and all that goes with it.
4. Can´t wait for you to do videos on that Starman run.
Head canon: the “Spider is a criminal” can work in a “Godfather” sense, in that Spider may see the Axis as being a threat to his own operations if left to their own devices. You can also throw in influences of the “Green Hornet” attitude of a hero pretending to be a criminal, except in this case there’s no pretence (at least in the modern era).
The retcon in Superman and Lois of them having two sons - one with powers and one without - is making things pretty interesting in that show.
Your not wrong about there being many heroes named "The Spider" because when I looked at the title I thought this video was going to be about the pulp hero "The Spider" with his cool hat, cloak and crazy sci-fi gun in his modern rendition. Then I saw the thumbnail and said wait a minute that's not him, what is this? Still a golden age character called "The Spider" just not the one I know about.
There was a bit of a resurgence in around 2005 anime industry of those kinds of pulp heroes resembling Scarlet Pimpernel and Judex, which pretty much failed but produced a lot of cult classics. Like The Big O, Daughter of 20 faces, and Skull Man (remake). It was already at the time when Japan was way into trying to break into the western markets with material that was to cross the culture gap, similarly to how comic books were breaking into the culture of mainsteram that previously thought them too kiddy. It a pretty weird mix of themes and tones in the way they are somewhat teenage-friendly rather than blatantly for adults, but not "family friendly" that skews younger.
Arguably they have their origins in The Golden Bat, which is arguably a superhero predating Superman, and itself referenced in stuff like the boy wielding the golden bat in Paranoia Agent by Satoshi Kon. Which is a thriller drama pastiche of pop culture subverting the character of upstanding citizens.
@@sboinkthelegday3892 Oh that's some lovely deep history, only bits of which I knew about, and I'm enjoying looking into what I didn't now!
Have you considered, I dunno, video essays with this knowledge base? ^_^
Don't forget the ring for branding criminals with the mark of the Spider.
If I remember correctly that's who Stan Lee named Spider-Man after
I kept thinking you were calling it "Crap Comics," which, as an imprint of "Quality Comics," I thought was pretty funny
"Head on, apply directly to forehead" 😂
Geoff Johns has done great retcons. My favourite has to be, retcon of the green lantern weakness to the colour ‘yellow’. He retconned so it wasn’t the colour ‘yellow’, exactly but, a weakness to fear as the killer of willpower, and fear being represented by the colour ‘yellow’ on the emotional spectrum.
Another, maybe this is more a reimagining? that I thought was kind of clever, was Mr Mind turning out to be merely a larval form of a much more dangerous and powerful creature, the Hyperfly.
Not exactly a retcon but my favorite was how they finally explained how Wanda's kids were reincarnated as Speed and Wiccan. As it turns out, her kids' souls jumped to different points in time with the help of the Parallax Stone/M'kraan Crystal shard, to evade Mephisto. I loved it because it now made sense how they were reincarnated into children that were too old to be Wanda's kids.
A retrospective on The Spider? I'd watch that! Love obscure Golden Age characters.
To be fair, the All Star Squadron had seventy members, and like five archers so they couldn't keep track of their membership AND fight World War 2 spies and saboteurs. It's easier for four or five Avengers to notice the Swordsman committing shenanigans.
My favorite retcon is the teen titans 2003 one where they make superboy half luthor. I think it fits in perfect into a kinda week spot in his origin and adds such a rich new layer ot every one involved
Here in the mid-west, we pronounce St. Louis with an "s". However, "Louie" is used sometimes, but mostly as slang.
It might be worth looking at Grant Morrison’s take on The Spider in his 7 Soldiers series. He follows on from Robinson’s Spider with another descendent.
I mainly know Shade from when Stargirl inherited the equipment and support characters from the Starman comics run you are talking about.
His appearance in the Kevin Smith Green Arrow is also just the best.
This is not to be confused with The Spider AKA The Sinister Spider from Popular Publications and currently Dynamite.
Well, the obscurity probably makes it work, along with what sounds like solid writing.
Sasha Wood is the best, smart, funny, knowledgeable, and a delightful speaker. ❤
A video about the evolution shade it could be interesting if you haven't already done it
Yes, want. There's so many golden age heroes that just went nowhere after, so having one get both motivation and a personality? Yes please.
I know very little about golden age heroes, so any retros you do I'm up for!
Wow! You are amazing! To find someone who is such a fan of these stories these days?!? So, the Starman series (and its predecessor , spirituality and otherwise); The Golden Age, is my all time FAVOURITE DC Comics story/series! Due to its nature (and it's author, James Robinson) it is also my ABSOLUTE favourite ret-con story. Thanks for this, and I'm all for ANY vids you want to do on anything even tangentially connected to James Robinson and Tony Harris's STARMAN 💫
Another great video Sasha!
I think a retcon I really like is Alan Moore changing it so that Swamp Thing isn’t really Alec Holland. It opened the door up for some really interesting exploration of him as a character.
Also, as someone who grew up in the St Louis area it is pronounced with the “s” like Lewis just in case it ever comes up again
I'd love to see an occasional history of some lesser known comic publishers from years past such as Harvey and Gold Key. These types of subjects are really fascinating to me.
I mostly know Gold Key for The Mighty Sampson. It's their least famous property, Solar/Magnus/Turok/etc. got the name recognition, but holy crap was Sampson a ton of fun!
Sasha, I’m on your side for that retrospective.
Dear god, I loved James Robinsons "Starman".
Nearly perfect comic from beginning to end.
Only thing he got wrong was calling Black Canary Diana.
I didn't really know about the golden age spider but I love that theyve had the dude who play peter Parker in the 90s cartoon voice the 2nd spider in cartoons
My headcanon was that The Spider was captured by Axis Amerika and replaced with the Italian villain Usil the Sun Archer.
I love the art in that Shade issue. Having him in fifties rather than Victorian clothes really works. He still feels in character.
The Surpriser can shoot rays from his fingers, and nobody knows that they'll do each time? That's the same power as Akton in cult bad science fiction movie Starcrash! I'd like to think James Robinson saw it and that was a homage. But I'd be surprised....
Speaking of retcons I'd like to see what you think of _Marvel Universe_ from 1998, I really liked it as a way to weave some Golden Age monster stories together (also establish Makkari of the Eternals as a Golden Age hero)
My favorite from that mini is the first issue. Gene Ha's BEAUTIFUL art and seeing how Dickie Swift was goaded into becoming The Shade is spectacular.
A Good Retcon I can think of off my head would probably be The Captain America of the 1950s; It help it explain that an impostors had used Cap's and Bucky's names to battle communist and everyone else, after they were both believed to have been Killed during the Second World War.
Thank you for this. I love the Shade to the point I cosplay him. Generally only a couple people at a con get it.
I think a Spider Retrospective would be gnarly, I’ve never heard of him before so it’d be interesting
Secret crime bosses are golden age af.
I love it.
17:52 "Two whole sets of heroes and he's running a criminal enterprise". Don't overthink the whole All-Star Squadron thing. The point of the All-Star Squadron was that EVERY active World War II era superhero was a member of the All-Star Squadron. Most played no significant part of any adventure, especially the Quality Comics heroes (such as The Spider) who were then sent from Earth-2 over to Earth-X where almost all of them died, with only the handful known as the Freedom Fighters managing to survive. Except for the regular members who appeared in the actual comic stories, none of the All-Star Squadron members spent much time doing anything with the group. And even the Seven Soldiers didn't do much. They had a small number of stories before they were cancelled. And the main point of having the Spider in the Seven Soldiers is for the more imporrant retcon: after Crisis, there was no World War II era Green Arrow and Speedy, so who was the archer in the Seven Soldiers? It turns out it was the Spider and Stuff the Chinatown Kid (and/or Billy Gunn) getting a promotion to being as important as Speedy, so that he got counted as one of the Seven but Wing still did not because he needed to be the Eighth member for the JLA/JSA/SSoV story.
Zero Hour! The movie that Airplane!😊
Dunno if anyone has said it, but we Americans say St. Louis like Saint Lewis
Noticed the eye shadows love that it seems to be intentional and they match the Spider’s costume colors. The plot twists seemed to really work. I think for some reason the short shorts work better for the costume than the pants.
Storming the docks? Naaaaw, that's just an urban legend. Just liek the one about people dressing up as wizards, staying up all night, and camping out on the sidewalk in front of a bookstore demanding the release of the next book in the series the MINUTE it goes on sale!!! Oh wait... (Like she said, some things never change!) 🤣🤣🤣
Please do the retrospective on the Spider / Alias the Spider…any retrospective from you is always entertaining & appreciated…hope you also look into the character I commented on in your Kofi …Keep Up The Outstanding Work Sasha 🖖🏾
The Spider’s connection to the Seven Soldiers is likely not canon anymore since the Star Girl Spring Break Special from 2021 retconned a time displaced Green Arrow and Speedy to haven been part of the team.
Geoff Johns is going hard with his new golden age, and even more series are spinning out of it. I'm actually excited for the Wesley Dodds Sandman one by Robert Venditti.
I'm sure there's someone out there whos favorite character was the Spider, and, when they read or heard about this story, it broke their heart and killed them. (We are talking about someone really old.)
"Fires darken rooms"
You what
He's in front of a fireplace in an otherwise dark room. So you have the light from the fire and everything else is being cast in shadows. It would be like if I went up against The Shade in an entirely dark room, but I have a flashlight, it's not enough lol I bought myself a good 3 minutes and The Spider bought himself a monologue and only that because The Shade was interested in what he had to say.
@@CasuallyComics Mm, so you don't mean 'fire makes a room darker' you really mean, 'fire isn't going to cut all the shadows away' which is fair.
Do the Silver Age Superboy and the Legion of Super Heroes please please please thank you!
Ironically this kind of frames the Spider as a reverse Green Hornet who pretends to be a crime boss but is really a superhero.
I'm always up for an obscure character/topic deep dive, so count me in for that Spider retrospective. While you're at it, I'll take retrospectives for The Shade and Starman too, please.
I've never actually heard of this Spider, but I do remember reading about a pulp comic strip character from the '30s with the same name. All I remember is that he used to mark his captured foes with a spider stamp.
I'm grateful to Stan He let John Romita draw MJ
This makes me wonder how many other Golden Age mass produced characters that exist could be turned into interesting stories, shorts or not, and what we could see out of that
Also I only knew Shade from the Justice League cartoon series, and didn't know he was this interesting, neat.
Well, Marvel's "The Twelve" series focuses on, um, twelve (duh) such superheroes. If you like the Shade and haven't read The Twelve, well, I recommend it. Also, Project Superpowers does a lot with some public domain heroes.
Great video. Appreciate the shade being cast on Green Arrow's name. People making fun of Oliver is one of my favorite things. Speaking of which, the Shade was the best part of the Stargirl show. Would love to see more of him.
You don't like green Arrow,?
You don't like green Arrow,?
Shame that we got the only Flash/Shade interaction in the series finale. I would love to see John Wesley Shipp and Jonathan Cake reprise their roles even if it's in an animated short.
@@hecrosegreat3943 On the contrary. He's an endless source of entertainment.
@@alyhoffman2643 Also wouldn't mind seeing any of the CW shows continue in animation. So much potential there.
I really like *Neil Gaiman's* retcon of *Brother Power The Geek,* making him an accidental elemental creature.
Even better is his retcon of Dr Destiny's Materioptikon.
I thought this video was going to be about the evil Spiderman in Young Justice
Stl resident here, we call it St. Louis as in "Louis and Clark", opposed to pronouncing it like "Louie". I love hearing you call it St. Louie though 😄
I love story. I am in my early 50's and never even heard of " The Spider" Thanks for this one.
Please do more Golden Age retcon vids, especially with Geoff Johns taking nineteen years to get his new Golden Age off the ground.
I love that idea. Great video.
Wow the shade seems like a really cool character I'd never heard of him but that issue makes me REALLY like him!
I am just kinda curious about the descendants of the spider, like what do they even do?
It's not exactly a retcon, but I'm fascinated reading old stories of current characters where the changes are so huge we've forgotten how they began - Batman killed, Superman couldn't fly, the Hulk was changing on a day/night basis etc. They don't take the old stories and go "so, this here's how this changed"; the change is simply taken and run with.
Hmm. Had not known there was a GA comic character called the Spider that was not based on the pulp. The pulp Spider was basically the Shadow, but the covers were great
I don't necessarily care about the spider, but I love your enthusiasm. If you can bring that same enthusiasm to a retrospective then go for it!
This video just introduced me ti the Shade, and the character is really interesting me and seems just luke something I would love! Thanks, Sasha!
Fantastic retcon. No need to touch it again, unless the shade's backstory gets retconned i suppose.
Witness the power of The Holy Numbers as they bless you with this fine video.
First off, I'd like to see a retrospective on the golden age Alias The Spider.
Second, one of my favorite retcons is the reveal that Goku, the protagonist of Dragon Ball, being a Saiyan, an alien. He was already seen a strange being by the people off Earth, which included the talking shapeshifting animals. Plus it opened the door for interstellar stories, which is what they do in the next story arc when they go to planet Namek.
Goku's retcon was excellent.
Not my favorite retcon, but probably the biggest... The Sentry. His existence retcons the entire continuity of the Marvel Universe.
The story of the Sentry's creation behind the scen s is amazing too.
The cops must've thought the informant was Dr. Mid-nite because The Shade is just an urban myth.
I was hoping someone would make an urban myth joke lol
I thought this was the pulp noir vigilante that looks like Spidey who uses guns.
I would love to see a Golden Age Spider retrospective.
More golden age content in general.
A descendent of the Spider showed up in the Morrison Seven Soldiers of Victory. This one rode in a giant mechanical spider and betrayed the team as well