Black Cleopatra was depicted like a warrior queen, despite the fact she wasn't and was instead a highly learnt and well regarded scholar, which the actress pretends to impersonate at the same time in such a ridiculous manner. An utter failure of a show, and NOT a documentary.
You know it's funny Hollywood seems to have things backwards. You will see them constantly take shows that should be homogeneous and yet make it Multicultural even in fiction but then you have this story that is Multicultural and they make it homogeneous.
@@davidsanders5652 Certain terms need to be treated as brands, like Diversity™, Anti-Racism™, Equity™, and Inclusion™. Since they are never used in ways reflecting their actual meaning.
@@davidsanders5652 Queer doesn't even mean gay anymore, it means weird or strange again, just like the girls who love to use it and call themselves it.
I've found a lot of people who push the Cleopatra as African narrative conflate her with Nefertiti, who was ethnically Egyptian, but who lived hundreds of years before. It's the equivalent of ren-faire history, where King Arthur, Robin Hood, and Elizabeth I all lived across town from each other.
Not that Nefertiti would help that narrative in the sense of making it realistic to cast an actress who looks like an average black American. Yes, she's definitely "African" and it's a reasonable assumption that there was some Nubian seasoning in the Upper Egyptian origins of her dynasty... but that's like Iman being her GGGGG-grandma. The one drop doesn't keep churning out Iman clones.
My grandma always said, "I don't care what they taught you in school. 'Saved by the Bell' is a bigger masterpiece than 'Hamlet.'" Thank you very much for having this fantastic guest! It's really frustrating to hear how fascinating of an individual Cleopatra was but how Jada et al were ideologically set on counterfactual nonsense. Thank you for the video!
Well done, Paul. The more people who see the Berlin Cleopatra bust, the better - pictures speak louder than words. The real problem is, I think, if there was a documentary that actually showed the Macedonian-style fashions of Cleopatra's time, and the Macedonian-style decorations, furniture and architecture of the palace at Alexandria - many of uninformed Joe Public might not believe it was even set in ancient Egypt at all.
@@karekarenohay4432 sorry, no, I meant the bust of Cleopatra VII - shown in the video - is also in one of the Berlin museums as well as the famous Nefertiti head.
Thank you Chato and Laura! As someone who once aspired to be a history professor, I am acutely aware of how many people are being taught false history in so many ways, and that YT is often a big helper in keeping myths and propaganda alive due to the way they crack down so hard on real historical content and discussions. It is great to see people making an effort to uphold the realities of history, and calling out some of the folks who are trying to obfuscate and confuse the truth.
Yeah. I've just been reading books like The Creature from Jekyll Island by G Edward Griffin, America's Secret Establishment by Antony Sutton, and Proofs of a Conspiracy by John Robison. It's insane how heavily propagandized so many people are. What have you been reading?
@@nicholauscrawford7903 Currently a book about Lend Lease by Weeks, Peikoff's The Cause of Hitler's Germany, and Matthew Brzezinski's book about Sputnik...Red Moon Rising. The next one on the list after those is Shattered Sword by Parshall and Tully.👍
“I Claudius” is an amazing series chock full of amazing actors. It still holds up today. Watched it with my parents in 1976. It was the “Game of Thrones” (the good seasons) of its day.
My grandma always told me not to trust it when everyone told me Cookie Monster was blue... and he was a staunch vegan which has been historically covered up by the chocolate chip cookie lobby.
This might be the kindest review of the show that I have seen. Are you sure it deserves this much kindness, considering how purposefully deceitful and manipulative the show is? Good job talking to an actual expert, by the way. I wonder why Netflix didn't think of that?
It's a constant problem with the media. They hire historical consultants but don't listen to them. They are hired solely so that they can say 'we had historical consultants' and so that they can put 'Historical Consultant : Fred Bloggs' on the title cards. The historical field is littered with experts that have vowed never to with the media again.
@@WildZephyr Much like Amazon did to the one actual Tolkien scholar they were initially working with on Rings of Power, then kicked to the curb, likely because he pointed out how their stupid diversity push in the show didn't fit the Middle Earth Tolkien had created.
Egypt was very cosmopolitan at the time ~ peoples from all over the Eastern and Central Mediterranean Sea could be found in the marketplaces of Northern Egypt. It is a pity they didn't search this truth out in their presentation.
Loved the review. When I was a kid in school we had a kid who family was from Egypt. He was born there but moved to Canada when he was young. But anytime there was a project where he could bring in something to do with Egypt he would. And here's the thing that family looked more middle eastern then African. I think a lot of people forget Africa is a wide vast continent that is many times bigger than it is described on maps. And it's like Egypt was kind of isolated for the rest of Africa because there was some great big sand barrier that made it very hard for living creatures to survive out there and probably journeying across it. Very dangerous. Somehow it's like Egypt had easier access to there. Northeasterly neighbors versus their South Westerly neighbors. But I'm just throwing my two cents out there.
Yes exactly. Not just the deserts but the deep rainforests in the inerior, and the local slaver empires that occasionally arose there, were a massive obstacle to North-South trade and travel over land for a great many millenia. Northern Africa was more of a Mediterranean place for most of it's history than an "african" place. The home to places like Carthage and Troy that rivaled great empires like Rome and ancient Greece. While the so called "nubian" empires would have had on and off contact and trade relations with these places they were 100% distinct cultures and peoples.
Well, they wanted to claim her accomplishments and acclaim for one particular group and attempted to invalidate the authenticity of her true origin and heritage. Anyone who truly studied history knew that she was part of the Ptolemaic dynasty and Macedonian in origin.
I never watched it (and never will) but im guessing the show probably didnt dwell on the fact that she would have owned loads of slaves. And the incest, so much incest. So much incest even Pornhub wouldnt go there. I guess that wasnt dwelt on to much...
@@jamesmaybrick2001Considering the genetic degradation of the Ptolemaic dynasty by this time, I would certainly say so. That is, in itself, a disproof of the Afrocentrics. Ptolemy was Macedonian, without a doubt, and his descendants usurped the belief that the Pharoahs were descendants of Ra for legitimacy as rulers. And since diluting their blood with “non-Ra” blood would harm this belief, consanguinity was the order of the day. People think Cleopatra was so stunningly beautiful that she just had Julius Caesar and Marc Antony wound about her finger because of that. Not really. Beauty standards of the day weren’t what we consider them to be, what made Cleopatra alluring was that she was well-versed in ancient seduction techniques, like being educated and able to wield courtly influence. She was an intelligent woman who well understood how to wield the politics of her gender and station to her benefit. She was able to deliver Egypt to Rome (albeit not in the manner she wanted) without Egypt getting destroyed as had been the case for many other provinces in the Empire. She was capable as a ruler, but also willing to kill and use people. It was her that ended the life of the great Pompey on the beaches of Alexandria. It was her that Caesar threw away his marriage to Pompey’s daughter to acquire, plunging the Republic into the first triumvirate and eventually, its demise.
My Grandmother told it doesn't matter what they tell you in school, Stalin, Marx, Trotsky, Mao, Lenin and Pol Pot were black. You can trust my gran-gran, her cookies are amazing.
I'm surprised but happy that she endorsed HBO's Rome! Based on what she was describing initially and my own research on the topic, I've always assumed that portrayal of Cleopatra was oversimplified if not outright inaccurate, since that show focused on hedonistic and opportunistic aspects of her character over the more regal/scholarly aspects described here. Then again, she was a relatively minor character in that show, and it only depicted her at the very beginning and very end of her reign, so it makes sense you don't see what she was like as an actual ruler. Also, RIP to Ray Stevenson, he's the only reason I'm still watching ahsoka, everything else about that show has been painful, but I'm invested in seeing just how dirty he gets done by the end of it.
What I'd really be interested in is a history of how some Black people came to latch on to Cleopatra, in particular, being black and why that's so important to them that people like that Grandma essentially close their ears and say "lalala I can't hear you" to historical fact.
Looking forward to the grandma-approved docu-drama about The Frantics in 50 years, played by four black lesbians, called "Boot to the Hood". Historically accurate, of course, as there were indeed four members.
Grandma said the moon is made of cheese and the Sun revolves around the Earth too. She also said that doing certain things make you go blind, but I can still see so maybe she wasn't always right.
Visited Egypt in 2008, an amazing place - the great, ancient structures and artifacts are just as impressive as they appear in films. It's like walking into an Indiana Jones film. Great hearing Laura's takes. Cheers.
I love that you have a knowledgeable guest. Very sharp. Further she was so well spoken, and let's be honest, never hurts to have a really attractive woman on your show.
I just rewatched I, Claudius just last week. I was thought of it was it was a play that was televised. And HBO's "Rome" was what inspired me to take classical studies in college.
@@AncientEgyptAlive Obviously after actually reading the histories by both modern but mostly ancient Roman and Greek writers I realized how much they condensed the story and made his mother Atia's character to be almost the polar opposite of the real one. But they did a great job getting the look and feel of 1st century BC Rome in an (presumably) realistic way. And it's one of the only films or TV shows depicting Rome to actually paint the buildings instead of making them white. There was an Italian film that came out several years ago covering the Romulus and Remus story. They told it in a plausible way. They were adults and sheep herders, there was no wolf or any of that, and they told it in a way that made Romulus the protagonist and Remus as the antagonist. What caught my attention when I read about it was, besides the fact that I can't think of anything on the screen that covered that period of Rome; the whole movie was done in proto/archaic Latin. I figured if they were paying that close of attention to things it'd have to be at least decent. There's a series that came out from the same filmmaker, but it's a completely different story.
Thank you Chato for having a guest that is inspiring in her knowledge! As someone that studies myths as archetypes, Laura's description of the Egyptian meaning of "Mary" (that can be a hot-plate issue with certain religious believers) was artfully done. Allowing her to "flex" her repertoire has engaged me to go and follow her work, as other scholars of Egypt have suggested the same origins. She relates that cultuarl appropriation isn't new when fabricating a new Mythos meant to supplant an older, more popular archetype. That appropriation being made some 1400, to 1600 years ago to include a more popular archetype into it's "lore". This Relates PERFECTLY with these movie franchises creating their own "RELIGIOUS BELIEFS", and calling it "HISTORY".
During all the fun around the series, I felt impelled to point out that Egypt called itself Kemet, meaning the Black Land, referring to the Nile silt. It seems to me that if Kemet does refer to the skin colour of its people (although, yeah, incoming Nubians among others), then those who lived in the Deshret, meaning the Red Land (the desert) must have had red skins… 🤔
Good job Chato. This episode reminds me of the Woody Allen scene in Annie Hall where Woody is having an argument with somebody over something Marshall McLuhan had said and Woody brings over Marshall McLuhan himself to tell the other guy off.
Egypt breaks my heart. From a penultimate empire ruling the rest of Africa, creating amazing things that flabbergast us even NOW. It transformed into an Islamic craphole in record time.
Now that the strike is settled, I look forward to more Hollywood history rewriting with diversity. I understand a new Shaka Zulu is in the works with Paul Giamatti as Shaka.
This was a really cool discussion. Can lesson to Laura all day on Egypt. As someone who spent 10yrs in a Christian church, in my teens and early 20s, which had scholars come in and talk about the area I loved hearing them discuss on the both Israel and Egypt and the Middle East in reference to the movement of the Hebrews and surrounding cultures. Thank you both, Aru
Cleo kept marrying her way into being the most powerful woman in the world. Then the guy would die in battle or get murdered leaving her to scramble to shore up her power base.
Stevenson. Ray Stevenson! "Rome" was a wonderful show. So was "I Clavdivs" in the 70s. So many great actors. Including the late great John Hurt as Caligula!
I think the script by Jack Pullman enlivened the Graves book. Ah yes - wonderful performances: Jacobi, Brian Blessed as Augustus and the brilliant Sian Phillips! @@planetdisco4821
The real Cleopatra (what we believe we know of her) was really interesting, plenty of material noted here that I'd never heard before! Would have made a great documentary...
It's so obvious Laura loves her subject and is passionate. It's made me excited about Egypt again and all that they're finding. I've taken one of Lauras classes before and she made it super fun. Looking forward to her next class when she speaks more about the great Cleopatra!!
the real shame of a debacle like Netflix and JPS's Cleopatra is that the noise drowns out not only what is known about the incredible woman that was Cleopatra, but also all the exciting information that is being learned by real scholars and experts like Laura. great video, Chato, thank you so much!
Patrick Stewart as Sejanus and John Rhys Davis as Macro, John Hurt as Caligula, Patricia Quinn as well, I have loved I, Claudius ever since I first saw it. Need to get the blu ray...
I've seen some of Laura's work. This was a great crossover. I also appreciated that you guys were able to be serious about the actual history, and fair towards the actors and show, re: what they did well, and where it was off. Simply pointing and laughing would have been easy but taught us nothing. You took the higher, better road. Thanks!
Thanks so much Cynthia! We discussed that... and wanted to give a fair appraisal. I was actually impressed that the experts recounted the historical events quite faithfully - despite the misleading positioning and many other flaws of the series!
@@AncientEgyptAlive Well, here's hoping that some of those who stumble across the series will be inspired to look further into the history of Egypt and come to appreciate the breadth of it. My childhood intro to "medieval Europe" was the Sunday comics' Prince Valiant series, which isn't exactly realistic, but from there sprang a lifelong interest in European medieval history, and history in general. :)
Thank you Chato! Loved this! I have seen most of the docs and archeologists mentioned here and I agree. There are great docs out there that people should rather see
Yes - Secrets of Saqqara, the Unknown Pyramid.... Anything with Mark Lehner's name attached Hawass, Chris Naunton, Ikram, Dodson, the wonderful John Romer... there are so many good credible experts out there...
@@AncientEgyptAlive I also liked top 10 treasures of Egypt. The host, Bethany Hughes, isn’t an Egyptologist but has done a lot of good documentaries. It gives a good run down of few of the biggest discoveries. Have also been watching Salima Ikram in lots of documentaries as well and love hearing what she has to say.
The really frustrating thing about all productions like this is that it would have been very easy, in an Imperial Roman setting that was in fact very multiethnic, to write a Kushite lady-in-waiting of Cleopatra---who also would have made a better protagonist, considering that Cleopatra does not seem to have been a sympathetic person. You can have your cake and eat it too if you bake another cake...
Is it harsh that I'm remind of that other "documentary" The Principle; where everyone involved complains that their words have been twisted and that they'd never have agreed to this if they'd known before hand.
Its nice to see two adults discussing a crappy show in a sensible way. The way "some" folks (we all know who) were talking about it you would think it was the end of modern civilization. When in fact, its mostly just a shame as the real history is far more interesting.
I saw one review of this series by a woman who was an expert on historical fashion and makeup. It was very interesting... of course she dinged the series mercilessly.
Interesting segment, thank you. I have no intention of viewing that Netflix show, but I was happy that the series "Rome" was mentionned and praised. It is one of my top 3 favourite TV shows... even though I don't really care about Antiquity, having always proclaimed (half-jokingly) that nothing really happened before Louis XIV. Well maybe before Cardinal de Richelieu. 🤔
Oh Gosh Candide - an age of reasoning fan I can see. SO MUCH happened before Lous XIV - hope you will delve into ancient history more! (I need to beef up my modern history knowledge)
There is now a history book in the UK pushing the ‘historical black’ narrative that black people built Stonehenge( yes, really!) and throughout our history there was a huge black population in the UK, even though in 1950 there were only 20,000 non white residents living in the UK, almost all of whom were born outside of the UK. Facts really don’t matter anymore, it’s the narrative that is most important!! British children are being taught that they have no place in the country that has been ours for millennia!! It’s offensive, disrespectful and cultural annihilation!! If black people are searching for their ‘place’ in history, their achievements, their great men/women , stealing the history of another race is not the way to go about it! I Claudius ? Watched it again the other week, bloody marvellous!!
look at it this way. some black person starts spouting off on how they were in england forever just mention that it means they were respinsible for the slavery and colonialism they keep whining about
Funny that in the same Berlin museum that holds the stolen bust of Nefertiti, Germans have a plaque complaining about some (quite minor) items taken by the Soviets after WW2 as part of reparations. But anyway, they do have a decent Ancient Egypt section there, and Nefertiti is absolutely their prized centerpiece. I'm glad that I got a chance to see it in person. Although, Cairo museum is still better if you're into Ancient Egypt.
- Thanks for this comment. The Egyptian Museum in Cairo is absolutely my favourite museum in the world - all should visit and it just had major renovation. Also the Grand Egyptian Museum is opening by next Spring or earlier, in sha allah!
What a change of pace, Mr. Chato. It was a delightful one for me. I can't help thinking that I wish I saw Ms. Laura represented in film. She is the kind of "girl boss" I want to see. She's big brained, passionate, eloquent, funny and kind. As an old-time feminist I recognize what she represents as real female power. I could see her bopping a villain on the head and saving the day, as well as being interesting while she did it in a clever and surprising way. What fun would that be?
Thanks so much for this kind commentary, appreciated. I actually don't consider myself a feminist at all... more a quirky individualist. But I would love to bop some villains on the head and jump about in a silly way, saving the day! :-) thanks again quij&ote222 - doesn't quite roll off the tongue!
Sad that she spoke 9 languages and studied science under the radar so she wasnt a target for familiar assisnation, and they race swap and focus on mythical strength she didnt have, when the real Cleopatra was amazing....
Would have been nice to do a show on the 7th/8th century nubian dynasties. Hollywood and TV tends to redo the same stories from history over and over again. Probably they felt everyone had heard the Cleopatra story too often so race swapping gave them something new to look at. ROME and I Claudius were great. Great direction, wonderful actors based on historical events. They took their license with the things that weren't written down. The show was Saved by the Bell.
Yes indeed - There are so many great black kings - and queens -- from Nubia - ancient Sudan. The story of the 25th Dynasty - and later the city of Meroe with great Queens like Candake - all would be amazing and accurate documentary subjects . I guess they wanted the "top brand" Queen of Egypt for their own.
Very nice. I enjoyed that she remarked about the similarities between Isis and Mary imagery. The early Roman Catholic Church altered a lot of the "Christian" imagery to reflect Roman, Greek, and even Egyptian characters. The Jewish woman Miriam became Mary. Yeshua became Jesus(originally Iesus). Look at the famous Last Supper. Doesn't look much like a group of Jewish men having a Passover Seder with the very Greek/Roman nobility robes and eating fluffy white bread and fish instead of unleavened bread and lamb. The imagery was a lot more palatable to the people of Rome at the time, and it distorted things just like this Netflix "docuseries" has for the sake of "a modern audience". The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess.
Good job on this. Hopefully this video will gain traction, and more people can see how you can criticize something still being polite. Props to Laura too, assertive yet still pleasant on her observations.
I really enjoyed this review. There were no rants or angry expresions at all, and it was very insightful. I even liked that it was pointed out the facts that the "documentary" got right (wow, it wasn't all Jada's fiction!), and laughed at how you both made fun of the things that obviously were wrong or pandered towards some demography. Thank you Paul for this "better late than never" review, and all your content. Be seeing you!
We should be glad that so many Egyptian artifacts were "stolen" and moved to Western museums. Long before there was an antiquities market with "white" people, the locals destroyed *everything* they found. All they cared about were bits of gold and silver. The Muslim population of the Mideast had *zero* regard for their own past. They ignored or deliberately destroyed their own past. The story of ancient Egypt has been rescued by the West. We should be very proud of scholars like your fascinating guest.
That's very kind of you to say Conrad. Thank you. And well put. When the Muslims came in 642 to conquer Egypt - the entire culture and religion changed. They had no connection to the great Pharaohs of the past and their pagan faith. Yes, it was the West - beginning with Napoleon's savants - and perhaps a few bold explorers before) - who rescued Egypt's ancient past..
My favorite part is the grandma quote. Remember kids facts don't matter, what's matter is that grandma said Paul Chato was a black person.
She was black trsns queer 😂😂😂
My grandma said everything in a store is free if you can steal it.
Black Chato would be kinda funny
The thing I love is that they will chide the right wing for taking things on 'faith'.
Pookie Chato
Black Cleopatra was depicted like a warrior queen, despite the fact she wasn't and was instead a highly learnt and well regarded scholar, which the actress pretends to impersonate at the same time in such a ridiculous manner. An utter failure of a show, and NOT a documentary.
And the Romans wear f****ng leather armour! It doesnt work against the heavy weapons of war.
woke entertainment for nobody who actually can afford things like streaming services
Cleoniga
When Cleopatra said "Wakanda Forever!" it gave me chills and a tear came out of my eye.
Only Netflix could make a documentary so wrong that they get sued by a country. 😄
My Grandma always said don’t trust the Imperial Star Court, Paul Chato is a space pirate. I enjoyed your guest!
You know it's funny Hollywood seems to have things backwards. You will see them constantly take shows that should be homogeneous and yet make it Multicultural even in fiction but then you have this story that is Multicultural and they make it homogeneous.
Ha
And "diversity" means either black or queer. Ideally black AND queer.
@@davidsanders5652 Certain terms need to be treated as brands, like Diversity™, Anti-Racism™, Equity™, and Inclusion™. Since they are never used in ways reflecting their actual meaning.
100%
@@davidsanders5652 Queer doesn't even mean gay anymore, it means weird or strange again, just like the girls who love to use it and call themselves it.
Netflix's Cleopatra: Black Supremacists Do History.
I've found a lot of people who push the Cleopatra as African narrative conflate her with Nefertiti, who was ethnically Egyptian, but who lived hundreds of years before. It's the equivalent of ren-faire history, where King Arthur, Robin Hood, and Elizabeth I all lived across town from each other.
Not across town but in the same town but earlier
Not that Nefertiti would help that narrative in the sense of making it realistic to cast an actress who looks like an average black American. Yes, she's definitely "African" and it's a reasonable assumption that there was some Nubian seasoning in the Upper Egyptian origins of her dynasty... but that's like Iman being her GGGGG-grandma. The one drop doesn't keep churning out Iman clones.
My grandma always said, "I don't care what they taught you in school. 'Saved by the Bell' is a bigger masterpiece than 'Hamlet.'"
Thank you very much for having this fantastic guest! It's really frustrating to hear how fascinating of an individual Cleopatra was but how Jada et al were ideologically set on counterfactual nonsense.
Thank you for the video!
Well done, Paul. The more people who see the Berlin Cleopatra bust, the better - pictures speak louder than words. The real problem is, I think, if there was a documentary that actually showed the Macedonian-style fashions of Cleopatra's time, and the Macedonian-style decorations, furniture and architecture of the palace at Alexandria - many of uninformed Joe Public might not believe it was even set in ancient Egypt at all.
You mean Nefertiti?
@@karekarenohay4432 sorry, no, I meant the bust of Cleopatra VII - shown in the video - is also in one of the Berlin museums as well as the famous Nefertiti head.
Thank you Chato and Laura! As someone who once aspired to be a history professor, I am acutely aware of how many people are being taught false history in so many ways, and that YT is often a big helper in keeping myths and propaganda alive due to the way they crack down so hard on real historical content and discussions. It is great to see people making an effort to uphold the realities of history, and calling out some of the folks who are trying to obfuscate and confuse the truth.
It's a shame when real history is considered inappropriate and offensive.
Yeah. I've just been reading books like The Creature from Jekyll Island by G Edward Griffin, America's Secret Establishment by Antony Sutton, and Proofs of a Conspiracy by John Robison. It's insane how heavily propagandized so many people are. What have you been reading?
@@nicholauscrawford7903 Currently a book about Lend Lease by Weeks, Peikoff's The Cause of Hitler's Germany, and Matthew Brzezinski's book about Sputnik...Red Moon Rising. The next one on the list after those is Shattered Sword by Parshall and Tully.👍
Who needs expert Egyptologists when you have JPS’s mom?
“I Claudius” is an amazing series chock full of amazing actors. It still holds up today. Watched it with my parents in 1976. It was the “Game of Thrones” (the good seasons) of its day.
Oh, the difference between something written by a man with a classical education and one written by a female sociopathic popculture "influencer".
Yes, it IS an amazing series, I re-watched it maybe a month ago.
@@simonbrehm358 Mother did that to me some ways into Excalibur. I was not best pleased at the time.
It was the Who's who of British acting cream from that era.
My grandma always told me not to trust it when everyone told me Cookie Monster was blue... and he was a staunch vegan which has been historically covered up by the chocolate chip cookie lobby.
I watched the Rome series when it aired...phenomenal show and a great depiction of Cleopatra. RIP Ray Stevenson.
This might be the kindest review of the show that I have seen. Are you sure it deserves this much kindness, considering how purposefully deceitful and manipulative the show is? Good job talking to an actual expert, by the way. I wonder why Netflix didn't think of that?
Others had beat the show up enough already. I think the opportunity to provide the real story was more fun and useful. Thanks for your comment.
They did. Then they fired them because they wouldn't agree that Cleopatra was black.
It's presented as kind but I thought was a far more brutal takedown. Like making someone concede without throwing a punch.
It's a constant problem with the media. They hire historical consultants but don't listen to them. They are hired solely so that they can say 'we had historical consultants' and so that they can put 'Historical Consultant : Fred Bloggs' on the title cards. The historical field is littered with experts that have vowed never to with the media again.
@@WildZephyr Much like Amazon did to the one actual Tolkien scholar they were initially working with on Rings of Power, then kicked to the curb, likely because he pointed out how their stupid diversity push in the show didn't fit the Middle Earth Tolkien had created.
Egypt was very cosmopolitan at the time ~ peoples from all over the Eastern and Central Mediterranean Sea could be found in the marketplaces of Northern Egypt. It is a pity they didn't search this truth out in their presentation.
yes traders in trading cities
@@claudiameier666 ~ are you the Claudia Meier of 'Amazon' fame?
Loved the review. When I was a kid in school we had a kid who family was from Egypt. He was born there but moved to Canada when he was young. But anytime there was a project where he could bring in something to do with Egypt he would. And here's the thing that family looked more middle eastern then African. I think a lot of people forget Africa is a wide vast continent that is many times bigger than it is described on maps. And it's like Egypt was kind of isolated for the rest of Africa because there was some great big sand barrier that made it very hard for living creatures to survive out there and probably journeying across it. Very dangerous. Somehow it's like Egypt had easier access to there. Northeasterly neighbors versus their South Westerly neighbors. But I'm just throwing my two cents out there.
Yes exactly. Not just the deserts but the deep rainforests in the inerior, and the local slaver empires that occasionally arose there, were a massive obstacle to North-South trade and travel over land for a great many millenia.
Northern Africa was more of a Mediterranean place for most of it's history than an "african" place. The home to places like Carthage and Troy that rivaled great empires like Rome and ancient Greece. While the so called "nubian" empires would have had on and off contact and trade relations with these places they were 100% distinct cultures and peoples.
Genetically Egyptians are closest to Berbers---in other words, North Africans.
Well, they wanted to claim her accomplishments and acclaim for one particular group and attempted to invalidate the authenticity of her true origin and heritage. Anyone who truly studied history knew that she was part of the Ptolemaic dynasty and Macedonian in origin.
Yes, Cleopatra was a great ruler, but she also made Cersi from "Game of Thrones" look like Cinderella.
I never watched it (and never will) but im guessing the show probably didnt dwell on the fact that she would have owned loads of slaves. And the incest, so much incest. So much incest even Pornhub wouldnt go there. I guess that wasnt dwelt on to much...
@@jamesmaybrick2001Considering the genetic degradation of the Ptolemaic dynasty by this time, I would certainly say so. That is, in itself, a disproof of the Afrocentrics. Ptolemy was Macedonian, without a doubt, and his descendants usurped the belief that the Pharoahs were descendants of Ra for legitimacy as rulers. And since diluting their blood with “non-Ra” blood would harm this belief, consanguinity was the order of the day.
People think Cleopatra was so stunningly beautiful that she just had Julius Caesar and Marc Antony wound about her finger because of that. Not really. Beauty standards of the day weren’t what we consider them to be, what made Cleopatra alluring was that she was well-versed in ancient seduction techniques, like being educated and able to wield courtly influence. She was an intelligent woman who well understood how to wield the politics of her gender and station to her benefit. She was able to deliver Egypt to Rome (albeit not in the manner she wanted) without Egypt getting destroyed as had been the case for many other provinces in the Empire. She was capable as a ruler, but also willing to kill and use people. It was her that ended the life of the great Pompey on the beaches of Alexandria. It was her that Caesar threw away his marriage to Pompey’s daughter to acquire, plunging the Republic into the first triumvirate and eventually, its demise.
I'm loving your content, Paul. You are a funny and entertaining character,and above all...authentic Thank you
Glad you enjoy it!
My Grandmother told it doesn't matter what they tell you in school, Stalin, Marx, Trotsky, Mao, Lenin and Pol Pot were black. You can trust my gran-gran, her cookies are amazing.
I'm surprised but happy that she endorsed HBO's Rome! Based on what she was describing initially and my own research on the topic, I've always assumed that portrayal of Cleopatra was oversimplified if not outright inaccurate, since that show focused on hedonistic and opportunistic aspects of her character over the more regal/scholarly aspects described here. Then again, she was a relatively minor character in that show, and it only depicted her at the very beginning and very end of her reign, so it makes sense you don't see what she was like as an actual ruler.
Also, RIP to Ray Stevenson, he's the only reason I'm still watching ahsoka, everything else about that show has been painful, but I'm invested in seeing just how dirty he gets done by the end of it.
Loved this! These are the conversations we should be having! Not arguing and opposing sides yelling at each other.
What I'd really be interested in is a history of how some Black people came to latch on to Cleopatra, in particular, being black and why that's so important to them that people like that Grandma essentially close their ears and say "lalala I can't hear you" to historical fact.
Looking forward to the grandma-approved docu-drama about The Frantics in 50 years, played by four black lesbians, called "Boot to the Hood". Historically accurate, of course, as there were indeed four members.
Schlomozol? Dear God l haven't heared that term used since my grandfather died in 2007. Brought back so many memories.
And don't forget ! Whatever anyone might say, your grandad was black ! 😮
Grandma said the moon is made of cheese and the Sun revolves around the Earth too. She also said that doing certain things make you go blind, but I can still see so maybe she wasn't always right.
Thanks for finding and dispensing actual knowledge in an entertaining way. I subbed to Laura's channel.
Visited Egypt in 2008, an amazing place - the great, ancient structures and artifacts are just as impressive as they appear in films. It's like walking into an Indiana Jones film. Great hearing Laura's takes. Cheers.
thank you - and nice to hear you saw Egypt! Go back!
I love that you have a knowledgeable guest. Very sharp. Further she was so well spoken, and let's be honest, never hurts to have a really attractive woman on your show.
I just rewatched I, Claudius just last week. I was thought of it was it was a play that was televised. And HBO's "Rome" was what inspired me to take classical studies in college.
Tim - I Claudius did that for me - taking classical studies in high school - and latin too! And yes Rome was great. Crush on Verenus!
@@AncientEgyptAlive Obviously after actually reading the histories by both modern but mostly ancient Roman and Greek writers I realized how much they condensed the story and made his mother Atia's character to be almost the polar opposite of the real one. But they did a great job getting the look and feel of 1st century BC Rome in an (presumably) realistic way. And it's one of the only films or TV shows depicting Rome to actually paint the buildings instead of making them white.
There was an Italian film that came out several years ago covering the Romulus and Remus story. They told it in a plausible way. They were adults and sheep herders, there was no wolf or any of that, and they told it in a way that made Romulus the protagonist and Remus as the antagonist. What caught my attention when I read about it was, besides the fact that I can't think of anything on the screen that covered that period of Rome; the whole movie was done in proto/archaic Latin. I figured if they were paying that close of attention to things it'd have to be at least decent. There's a series that came out from the same filmmaker, but it's a completely different story.
@@AncientEgyptAlive I made the mistake of watching Caligula, most because it's the only thing I haven't watched. It was f'cking terrible.
Thank you for this longer form segment. Love your guest, love your versatility, and I love I Claudius! More like this please.
I love her enthusiasm, she was very enjoyable to listen to!
Thanks so much! And I also enjoy hiphop! (some of it anyway!)
Thank you Chato for having a guest that is inspiring in her knowledge! As someone that studies myths as archetypes, Laura's description of the Egyptian meaning of "Mary" (that can be a hot-plate issue with certain religious believers) was artfully done. Allowing her to "flex" her repertoire has engaged me to go and follow her work, as other scholars of Egypt have suggested the same origins. She relates that cultuarl appropriation isn't new when fabricating a new Mythos meant to supplant an older, more popular archetype. That appropriation being made some 1400, to 1600 years ago to include a more popular archetype into it's "lore". This Relates PERFECTLY with these movie franchises creating their own "RELIGIOUS BELIEFS", and calling it "HISTORY".
During all the fun around the series, I felt impelled to point out that Egypt called itself Kemet, meaning the Black Land, referring to the Nile silt. It seems to me that if Kemet does refer to the skin colour of its people (although, yeah, incoming Nubians among others), then those who lived in the Deshret, meaning the Red Land (the desert) must have had red skins… 🤔
Good job Chato. This episode reminds me of the Woody Allen scene in Annie Hall where Woody is having an argument with somebody over something Marshall McLuhan had said and Woody brings over Marshall McLuhan himself to tell the other guy off.
Sigh I am often compared to Marshall McLuhan. So tiring! LOL - But yes, I remember that hysterical scene in Annie Hall
Great interview. I bet she's a great teacher - her knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject is contagious.
Thanks so much - appreciate it!
Egypt breaks my heart. From a penultimate empire ruling the rest of Africa, creating amazing things that flabbergast us even NOW. It transformed into an Islamic craphole in record time.
There is some evidence the ancient population was significantly genetically different from the ancient population
@@oddbod4442just "some" evidence? They were more like Western Europeans, at least the ruling class.
And it was predicted. In the Bible.
I know. I've actually been there.
and they just passed 100 million inhabitants and rising, all living along the Nile river. Very stable and no future problems here.
Now that the strike is settled, I look forward to more Hollywood history rewriting with diversity. I understand a new Shaka Zulu is in the works with Paul Giamatti as Shaka.
This was a really cool discussion. Can lesson to Laura all day on Egypt. As someone who spent 10yrs in a Christian church, in my teens and early 20s, which had scholars come in and talk about the area I loved hearing them discuss on the both Israel and Egypt and the Middle East in reference to the movement of the Hebrews and surrounding cultures. Thank you both, Aru
'pilloried', not 'pillared', although the ancient Egyptians did a lot of pillars too
Cleo kept marrying her way into being the most powerful woman in the world. Then the guy would die in battle or get murdered leaving her to scramble to shore up her power base.
"Ain't saying she is a golddigger, but she ain't messing with some broke romans"
Stevenson. Ray Stevenson! "Rome" was a wonderful show.
So was "I Clavdivs" in the 70s. So many great actors. Including the late great John Hurt as Caligula!
I Claudius was fantastic. The books by Robert Graves were even better…
I think the script by Jack Pullman enlivened the Graves book. Ah yes - wonderful performances: Jacobi, Brian Blessed as Augustus and the brilliant Sian Phillips!
@@planetdisco4821
Patrick Stewart with hair!
@@guillaumeb5511his acting was brilliant, the look on his face when he learns the fate of his children, he says everything while not speaking
The real Cleopatra (what we believe we know of her) was really interesting, plenty of material noted here that I'd never heard before! Would have made a great documentary...
It's so obvious Laura loves her subject and is passionate. It's made me excited about Egypt again and all that they're finding. I've taken one of Lauras classes before and she made it super fun. Looking forward to her next class when she speaks more about the great Cleopatra!!
Couldn't agree more!
I once saw a c.o.d. Egyptian Temple in a backstreet in Brooklyn and I thought..'figures!'..
Thank you, Paul for having on this wonderf, knowledgeable lady!
very kind of you to say Emily.
the real shame of a debacle like Netflix and JPS's Cleopatra is that the noise drowns out not only what is known about the incredible woman that was Cleopatra, but also all the exciting information that is being learned by real scholars and experts like Laura. great video, Chato, thank you so much!
Fascinating history. I’d rather listen to Laura than watch Netflix’s version.
I would, too.
What a delightful conversation 😊
RIP Ray Stevenson, who played Titus Pullo.
For me, I, Claudius & Rome are the yardsticks by which I measure all historical dramas.
Agree - For which I measure ALL TV drama!
Patrick Stewart as Sejanus and John Rhys Davis as Macro, John Hurt as Caligula, Patricia Quinn as well, I have loved I, Claudius ever since I first saw it. Need to get the blu ray...
Patricia Quinn... yes - of Rocky Horror fame!
I gotta say, Laura's passion for Egyptian history was infectious! Great review!
Thanks so much Kevin! If interested in more Ancient Egypt, do keep in touch!
I've seen some of Laura's work. This was a great crossover. I also appreciated that you guys were able to be serious about the actual history, and fair towards the actors and show, re: what they did well, and where it was off. Simply pointing and laughing would have been easy but taught us nothing. You took the higher, better road. Thanks!
Thanks so much Cynthia! We discussed that... and wanted to give a fair appraisal. I was actually impressed that the experts recounted the historical events quite faithfully - despite the misleading positioning and many other flaws of the series!
@@AncientEgyptAlive Well, here's hoping that some of those who stumble across the series will be inspired to look further into the history of Egypt and come to appreciate the breadth of it. My childhood intro to "medieval Europe" was the Sunday comics' Prince Valiant series, which isn't exactly realistic, but from there sprang a lifelong interest in European medieval history, and history in general. :)
Thank you Chato! Loved this! I have seen most of the docs and archeologists mentioned here and I agree. There are great docs out there that people should rather see
Yes - Secrets of Saqqara, the Unknown Pyramid.... Anything with Mark Lehner's name attached Hawass, Chris Naunton, Ikram, Dodson, the wonderful John Romer... there are so many good credible experts out there...
@@AncientEgyptAlive I also liked top 10 treasures of Egypt. The host, Bethany Hughes, isn’t an Egyptologist but has done a lot of good documentaries. It gives a good run down of few of the biggest discoveries. Have also been watching Salima Ikram in lots of documentaries as well and love hearing what she has to say.
Chato, it is wonderful that you have such a great friend (it is also wonderful that she has such a great friend).
When Paul said if Cleopatra comes to your door let her in, I was thinking it's like she's doing UberEats deliveries lol
Well I heard Netflix have just greenlit “Suez” - The Story of Suez “ staring Kevin Hart? It’s a “docu-dragedy“ apparently…?
The really frustrating thing about all productions like this is that it would have been very easy, in an Imperial Roman setting that was in fact very multiethnic, to write a Kushite lady-in-waiting of Cleopatra---who also would have made a better protagonist, considering that Cleopatra does not seem to have been a sympathetic person. You can have your cake and eat it too if you bake another cake...
That would take talent and actual effort. Can't have that. Also it doesn't fit their narrative that they were everywhere (Even ancient Briton)
I love _I, Claudius_ - you can see the budget, but the cast, the direction and framing more than made up for it
So glad you love it too... really fired my passion for ancient history from the youngest age
Is it harsh that I'm remind of that other "documentary" The Principle; where everyone involved complains that their words have been twisted and that they'd never have agreed to this if they'd known before hand.
Its nice to see two adults discussing a crappy show in a sensible way. The way "some" folks (we all know who) were talking about it you would think it was the end of modern civilization. When in fact, its mostly just a shame as the real history is far more interesting.
Thank you Paul and Laura I found this illuminating.
I'm glad that my grandmother imparted actual wisdom to me and not self-insert historical lies.
I saw one review of this series by a woman who was an expert on historical fashion and makeup. It was very interesting... of course she dinged the series mercilessly.
It did get the "documentary series" recognized because I've yet to hear anyone talk about the other Queens in the series.
Interesting segment, thank you. I have no intention of viewing that Netflix show, but I was happy that the series "Rome" was mentionned and praised. It is one of my top 3 favourite TV shows... even though I don't really care about Antiquity, having always proclaimed (half-jokingly) that nothing really happened before Louis XIV. Well maybe before Cardinal de Richelieu. 🤔
Oh Gosh Candide - an age of reasoning fan I can see. SO MUCH happened before Lous XIV - hope you will delve into ancient history more! (I need to beef up my modern history knowledge)
Awesome Paul, this was awesome, thank you very much.
Great interview 👍
She seems like fun 🤩
☕️
There is now a history book in the UK pushing the ‘historical black’ narrative that black people built Stonehenge( yes, really!) and throughout our history there was a huge black population in the UK, even though in 1950 there were only 20,000 non white residents living in the UK, almost all of whom were born outside of the UK. Facts really don’t matter anymore, it’s the narrative that is most important!! British children are being taught that they have no place in the country that has been ours for millennia!! It’s offensive, disrespectful and cultural annihilation!! If black people are searching for their ‘place’ in history, their achievements, their great men/women , stealing the history of another race is not the way to go about it!
I Claudius ? Watched it again the other week, bloody marvellous!!
look at it this way. some black person starts spouting off on how they were in england forever just mention that it means they were respinsible for the slavery and colonialism they keep whining about
Funny that in the same Berlin museum that holds the stolen bust of Nefertiti, Germans have a plaque complaining about some (quite minor) items taken by the Soviets after WW2 as part of reparations.
But anyway, they do have a decent Ancient Egypt section there, and Nefertiti is absolutely their prized centerpiece. I'm glad that I got a chance to see it in person. Although, Cairo museum is still better if you're into Ancient Egypt.
- Thanks for this comment. The Egyptian Museum in Cairo is absolutely my favourite museum in the world - all should visit and it just had major renovation. Also the Grand Egyptian Museum is opening by next Spring or earlier, in sha allah!
Yes!! "I Claudius" is a must watch.
What a change of pace, Mr. Chato. It was a delightful one for me. I can't help thinking that I wish I saw Ms. Laura represented in film. She is the kind of "girl boss" I want to see. She's big brained, passionate, eloquent, funny and kind. As an old-time feminist I recognize what she represents as real female power. I could see her bopping a villain on the head and saving the day, as well as being interesting while she did it in a clever and surprising way. What fun would that be?
Thanks so much for this kind commentary, appreciated. I actually don't consider myself a feminist at all... more a quirky individualist. But I would love to bop some villains on the head and jump about in a silly way, saving the day! :-) thanks again quij&ote222 - doesn't quite roll off the tongue!
Sad that she spoke 9 languages and studied science under the radar so she wasnt a target for familiar assisnation, and they race swap and focus on mythical strength she didnt have, when the real Cleopatra was amazing....
Would have been nice to do a show on the 7th/8th century nubian dynasties. Hollywood and TV tends to redo the same stories from history over and over again. Probably they felt everyone had heard the Cleopatra story too often so race swapping gave them something new to look at.
ROME and I Claudius were great. Great direction, wonderful actors based on historical events. They took their license with the things that weren't written down.
The show was Saved by the Bell.
Yes indeed - There are so many great black kings - and queens -- from Nubia - ancient Sudan. The story of the 25th Dynasty - and later the city of Meroe with great Queens like Candake - all would be amazing and accurate documentary subjects . I guess they wanted the "top brand" Queen of Egypt for their own.
I, Claudius and Rome are two of the greatest shows ever.
Gladiator not so much.
@@johndurham6172still better than this production. At least it had the grace not to call itself a documentary.
I appreciated the ISIS joke. Lovely interview!
What a GREAT discussion! 👍👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very nice. I enjoyed that she remarked about the similarities between Isis and Mary imagery. The early Roman Catholic Church altered a lot of the "Christian" imagery to reflect Roman, Greek, and even Egyptian characters. The Jewish woman Miriam became Mary. Yeshua became Jesus(originally Iesus). Look at the famous Last Supper. Doesn't look much like a group of Jewish men having a Passover Seder with the very Greek/Roman nobility robes and eating fluffy white bread and fish instead of unleavened bread and lamb. The imagery was a lot more palatable to the people of Rome at the time, and it distorted things just like this Netflix "docuseries" has for the sake of "a modern audience". The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess.
I, Claudius is just awesome! Highly recommend it.
I am interested in ancient Egypt, so I bookmarked the web site so I can explore it later.
Cleopatra looks like Mr. Canoehead :P
Good job on this. Hopefully this video will gain traction, and more people can see how you can criticize something still being polite. Props to Laura too, assertive yet still pleasant on her observations.
Thanks so much!
Why does steel guitar version Steve Martin's King Tut keep playing in my head during this posting.
I really enjoyed this review. There were no rants or angry expresions at all, and it was very insightful.
I even liked that it was pointed out the facts that the "documentary" got right (wow, it wasn't all Jada's fiction!), and laughed at how you both made fun of the things that obviously were wrong or pandered towards some demography.
Thank you Paul for this "better late than never" review, and all your content.
Be seeing you!
We should be glad that so many Egyptian artifacts were "stolen" and moved to Western museums. Long before there was an antiquities market with "white" people, the locals destroyed *everything* they found.
All they cared about were bits of gold and silver. The Muslim population of the Mideast had *zero* regard for their own past. They ignored or deliberately destroyed their own past.
The story of ancient Egypt has been rescued by the West. We should be very proud of scholars like your fascinating guest.
That's very kind of you to say Conrad. Thank you. And well put. When the Muslims came in 642 to conquer Egypt - the entire culture and religion changed. They had no connection to the great Pharaohs of the past and their pagan faith. Yes, it was the West - beginning with Napoleon's savants - and perhaps a few bold explorers before) - who rescued Egypt's ancient past..
I never knew she was a scientist. I am interested in learning more about that.
A series so historically off the marks that the country of Egypt sued Netflix😂
It’s as if a certain demographic is treating history like it was an inner-city Walmart.
and everything is priced under $950, and the location is California.
That grandma probably said Gengis Khan was black too
The best part of this was when Black Panther fought Blade for the supremacy of mount Olympus
🤣🤣🤣
Great Show. Thank You.
I found this very informative and enjoyed just how bad the Netflix show truly is.
Glad I gave this series a miss. I Claudius and Rome are both excellent. I keep wondering, will we ever get some good writing out of Hollywood again?
I only look for shows that well pre-date the pandemic and the rising Wokedom. Breaking Bad was great... was that Hollywood?
This is awesome Paul, I love hearing about ancient Egypt
Metatron, another great history guru, did a great breakdown on this to i recommend you give that a watch.
Haven't seen it yet, so you're not late at all! G'mar chasima tova!
future generations will cringe when they look back at our current cultural era
Doubt it, by then they will have been thoroughly indoctrinated.
Wonderful conversation