I'd just worry about TAN to be honest. I've always found it wild that if you're using a .5% ash oil you would condemn the oil at a TBN ~2.5. And yet if you switch the same engine over to a 1% ash oil, all of a sudden you need to trash the oil at a TBN of ~5. Makes no sense.
@@LubricationExplained True, I think that those before us have thought about this TBN and ash and just place the numbers and decision standards based on their observations at available technology. Maybe we can switch to the amount of wear an engine can tolerate than the TBNxTAN. At the same time introduce a minimum standard material for engine manufacturing. Long work but makes our lives easier in the end, right?
@@LubricationExplained yes, indeed. Watching your content definitely makes me believe your knowledge base is very grounded by Mobil too. I can relate. Keep up the good work. I might PM you as I like to network with those in the same industry.
Just color or transparency. Actually less sophisticated than just pulling the dipstick and using your fingers and nose, but is good for the marketing department's feature count and the many completely ignorant car buyers that have had zero auto-shop or driver's-ed. training. (I've met some that don't know there is oil in the car let alone that it needs to be changed....yet they are licensed operators...)
@@luizfernandopaquieli3709 Really drivers-ed should be mandatory regardless of age and one semester of auto-shop required in high school simply because cars are so completely integrated into life in the USA. Especially with increasing immigrant populations that do not have the advantage of a family history with motor vehicle operation. My original comment isn't about being able to maintain the vehicle, it is about proper operation, fewer breakdowns blocking traffic, fewer accidents caused by malfunctions or exceeding a vehicles limits, less pollution from abused vehicles. Very few aircraft pilots are certified to do any maintenance on an aircraft but the FAA still requires a solid understanding of aircraft systems specific to a category of aircraft for a pilot certificate.
@@mytech6779 that is worse than I thought! I was thinking you meant about knowledge on mechanics, but talking about the correct way to drive must be the minimum to get a car on street! We face the same situation rere in Brazil, but some States there's no discipline and education on streets, not only drivers but people and bikers don't respect each other!
@@luizfernandopaquieli3709 I have not been to Brazil. The driving license system in the USA is very old and depends heavy on parents teaching children the detail. This alone was only on the border of acceptable when the population was low, and there was always a fraction of bad drivers. But with many new immigrants from countries where there are very few cars,(such as Asia and Pacific Islands) they do not have this family knowledge which makes the situation much much worse. And it is extremely obvious an an observer with professional training that many simply have no understanding of the vehicle function. The increasing population adds more traffic which multiplies the problem.
Congratulations for the video! I have just carried out two laboratory analyzes, one on virgin 5w30 oil and the other on the same type of oil with 3200km, carried out in a turbo petrol engine, with my surprise the TAN on the use oil has dropped from 1, 7 to 1.31 ... Could you know why? Is the gasoline dilution perhaps one factor that may affect it? The dilution value of the used oil is 4.5%
@Lubrication Explained how can you compare 1a or 1b copper corrosion test with any of TAN or TBN mg KOH/g? I mean how I can say that if initially 10.0 mg KOH/g of oil TBN is now depleted with copper corrosion? Simple you can not compare copper ppm too with TAN/TBN depletion. Its only justifiable method to know the condemning limits of TBN is to measure TBN or TAN. As per my knowledge if TBN is depleted 70-80% then we can change engine oil or if TAN value increased 2 or 3 mg of the initial value then it will also be condemning because wear can occur due to depletion of zddp or it can also due to dust (abrasive wear). Right?
The question this video is trying to answer is - why do we change engine oil when TBN is depleted? TBN is itself an arbitrary construct. So what is special about 50% depletion? Or 80%? Why is the percentage the same for an oil with a starting TBN of 10, and one that starts at 5? We should really care about the EFFECT of TBN depletion. If TBN depletes, then the risk to our engine is that we experience corrosion. But if there is no corrosion, then why change the oil? You are right in that wear can occur - but this is a seperate failure mechanism. If the TBN has only depleted by 2% and we see high Iron then this may be a reason to change the oil or investigate the mechanism of wear.
@@LubricationExplained oo oky oky you are right oil change practice should not only based upon TBN depletion, one should check complete chemistry of oil like wear & tear, water contamination etc etc
@@LubricationExplained but after all complete check up its come to the point that TBN upmire will be the final authority of oil change, then how much % depletion you guide 😊?
Is copper strip corrosion test representative of any other metal in the engine? From what I remember, metals can corrode differently, depending on the condition ( including the possible coupling of west and corrosion, i.e tribocorrosion, which would promote corrosion on some elements more than on others, I suppose) is there no similar test method for say steel, aluminium or tin if such metals are present in the motor?
Generally, new oil will have a starting TAN around 0.5-1 mg/KOH - base oil refining isn't a perfect science so the is some trace amount of carboxylic acids that make it through the manufacturing process. Unfortunately our understanding of acids and bases is usually shaped by the mineral acids and bases that we learn about in chemistry (like HCl, H2SO4, NaOH etc). In most of these cases, if you have a basic solution like aqueous NaOH and drop some acid in like HCl, some of the base will neutralize the acid, forming a salt and water, and the solution will continue to be basic. But that ignores the whole family of acid-base reactions which are equilibrium reactions (i.e. acids and bases are present at the same time), and moreover lubricant chemistry isn't aqueous. So all our assumptions about acids and bases are wrong anyway. In the real world (and you can ask any natural or sour gas engine operator) both TBN and TAN will have positive values at the same time. TBN will deplete while TAN will increase.
@@LubricationExplained Thank you for your explanation :) Which could lead to sources of confusion & clarifications. First confusion: Yes, pH is for aqueous solution & lubricants are not aqueous. For this reason, TBN & TAN are the preferred parameters for lubricants. Why even talk about pH? Second confusion: What units are you using? The TBN unit should be mg KOH/ g lubricant? mg/KOH is B.S? TAN is mg KOH reqd to neutralise 1 g of Crude oil. In the real world - Small TAN, as you say, is said to be present in new oil. Therefore my original question remains unanswered: What is the TBN doing? Not fighting to The Last Man? Are acidic molecules able to survive total destruction? Ions lurking with potential? In order to measure TAN, the lab has to add KOH and measure mg/ g for neutralization? How come KOH acts Then - But not in the First Place?
Yeah that probably wasn’t very well explained. We included discussion about aqueous pH because there’s a (relatively) new used oil analysis test called ipH or “apparent pH” which aims to test the corrosive potential of an oil. It’s a test that’s slowly being adopted by gas engine OEMs but isn’t very well understood. Your second point is correct - mg KOH / g is the correct unit!
@@LubricationExplained Thank you for your response :) At least we're on the same page now. I have watched most of your series & it's usually, well explained. The TAN/ TBN thing does seem abstruse. I'm thinking: the additive package, incl KOH, should be held in solution, in the engine oil; Albeit, non-aqueous. Seems this is achieved with non-polar base oil, by Ester, or Alkylated aromatic, polar solvent? Solution implies ionization, even when non-aqueous? Acidic ions have corrosion potential, but are held, preferentially, by K+ ions? This leads to the question as to how the lab determines the content? And then, K in the lab report, comes under the heading of coolant entering the engine oil? (Also Na)
Good question - it doesn't really seem to make sense does it? There's a couple of explanations. The first is that our understanding of acids and bases are shaped by aqueous solutions. In oil, the acids and bases aren't necessarily dissociated, so H+ ions and base molecules don't necessarily react with each other. But at the same time, most acid-base reactions are equilibrium reactions, in which not all the acid and base reacts with each other.
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wow! this is a good eye opener. we should lobby a standardized test for this than the TBN and TAN crossover.
I'd just worry about TAN to be honest. I've always found it wild that if you're using a .5% ash oil you would condemn the oil at a TBN ~2.5. And yet if you switch the same engine over to a 1% ash oil, all of a sudden you need to trash the oil at a TBN of ~5. Makes no sense.
@@LubricationExplained True, I think that those before us have thought about this TBN and ash and just place the numbers and decision standards based on their observations at available technology. Maybe we can switch to the amount of wear an engine can tolerate than the TBNxTAN. At the same time introduce a minimum standard material for engine manufacturing. Long work but makes our lives easier in the end, right?
Good video! Very applicable to marine industry. Useful and insightful. Thank. DLE from Namibia 🇳🇦
Glad you enjoyed it! If you're using the term "DLE" I'm guessing that you're with a Mobil distributor?
@@LubricationExplained yes, indeed. Watching your content definitely makes me believe your knowledge base is very grounded by Mobil too. I can relate. Keep up the good work. I might PM you as I like to network with those in the same industry.
Is there more detailed explanation about TAN and TBN repeatability and reproductively between different lab?
Great explained! Some cars already have sensors to monitor lubricant condition, do you know what they monitor?
Just color or transparency. Actually less sophisticated than just pulling the dipstick and using your fingers and nose, but is good for the marketing department's feature count and the many completely ignorant car buyers that have had zero auto-shop or driver's-ed. training. (I've met some that don't know there is oil in the car let alone that it needs to be changed....yet they are licensed operators...)
@@mytech6779 I can imagine! I believe every driver must know the basic about its car to keep it running properly. But....just a few think like us!
@@luizfernandopaquieli3709 Really drivers-ed should be mandatory regardless of age and one semester of auto-shop required in high school simply because cars are so completely integrated into life in the USA. Especially with increasing immigrant populations that do not have the advantage of a family history with motor vehicle operation.
My original comment isn't about being able to maintain the vehicle, it is about proper operation, fewer breakdowns blocking traffic, fewer accidents caused by malfunctions or exceeding a vehicles limits, less pollution from abused vehicles.
Very few aircraft pilots are certified to do any maintenance on an aircraft but the FAA still requires a solid understanding of aircraft systems specific to a category of aircraft for a pilot certificate.
@@mytech6779 that is worse than I thought! I was thinking you meant about knowledge on mechanics, but talking about the correct way to drive must be the minimum to get a car on street! We face the same situation rere in Brazil, but some States there's no discipline and education on streets, not only drivers but people and bikers don't respect each other!
@@luizfernandopaquieli3709 I have not been to Brazil. The driving license system in the USA is very old and depends heavy on parents teaching children the detail. This alone was only on the border of acceptable when the population was low, and there was always a fraction of bad drivers.
But with many new immigrants from countries where there are very few cars,(such as Asia and Pacific Islands) they do not have this family knowledge which makes the situation much much worse. And it is extremely obvious an an observer with professional training that many simply have no understanding of the vehicle function. The increasing population adds more traffic which multiplies the problem.
High TBN must get better for engine life I was Castrol high mileage has 11.6 isn’t that great
Congratulations for the video!
I have just carried out two laboratory analyzes, one on virgin 5w30 oil and the other on the same type of oil with 3200km, carried out in a turbo petrol engine, with my surprise the TAN on the use oil has dropped from 1, 7 to 1.31 ...
Could you know why?
Is the gasoline dilution perhaps one factor that may affect it?
The dilution value of the used oil is 4.5%
@Lubrication Explained how can you compare 1a or 1b copper corrosion test with any of TAN or TBN mg KOH/g? I mean how I can say that if initially 10.0 mg KOH/g of oil TBN is now depleted with copper corrosion? Simple you can not compare copper ppm too with TAN/TBN depletion. Its only justifiable method to know the condemning limits of TBN is to measure TBN or TAN. As per my knowledge if TBN is depleted 70-80% then we can change engine oil or if TAN value increased 2 or 3 mg of the initial value then it will also be condemning because wear can occur due to depletion of zddp or it can also due to dust (abrasive wear). Right?
The question this video is trying to answer is - why do we change engine oil when TBN is depleted? TBN is itself an arbitrary construct. So what is special about 50% depletion? Or 80%? Why is the percentage the same for an oil with a starting TBN of 10, and one that starts at 5?
We should really care about the EFFECT of TBN depletion. If TBN depletes, then the risk to our engine is that we experience corrosion. But if there is no corrosion, then why change the oil?
You are right in that wear can occur - but this is a seperate failure mechanism. If the TBN has only depleted by 2% and we see high Iron then this may be a reason to change the oil or investigate the mechanism of wear.
@@LubricationExplained oo oky oky you are right oil change practice should not only based upon TBN depletion, one should check complete chemistry of oil like wear & tear, water contamination etc etc
@@LubricationExplained but after all complete check up its come to the point that TBN upmire will be the final authority of oil change, then how much % depletion you guide 😊?
Is copper strip corrosion test representative of any other metal in the engine? From what I remember, metals can corrode differently, depending on the condition ( including the possible coupling of west and corrosion, i.e tribocorrosion, which would promote corrosion on some elements more than on others, I suppose) is there no similar test method for say steel, aluminium or tin if such metals are present in the motor?
Not sure about this. My understanding is, that new oil has TBN & TAN is zero?
Until TBN actually goes down to zero - How can TAN even start to appear?
Generally, new oil will have a starting TAN around 0.5-1 mg/KOH - base oil refining isn't a perfect science so the is some trace amount of carboxylic acids that make it through the manufacturing process.
Unfortunately our understanding of acids and bases is usually shaped by the mineral acids and bases that we learn about in chemistry (like HCl, H2SO4, NaOH etc). In most of these cases, if you have a basic solution like aqueous NaOH and drop some acid in like HCl, some of the base will neutralize the acid, forming a salt and water, and the solution will continue to be basic. But that ignores the whole family of acid-base reactions which are equilibrium reactions (i.e. acids and bases are present at the same time), and moreover lubricant chemistry isn't aqueous. So all our assumptions about acids and bases are wrong anyway.
In the real world (and you can ask any natural or sour gas engine operator) both TBN and TAN will have positive values at the same time. TBN will deplete while TAN will increase.
@@LubricationExplained Thank you for your explanation :) Which could lead to sources of confusion & clarifications.
First confusion: Yes, pH is for aqueous solution & lubricants are not aqueous. For this reason, TBN & TAN are the preferred parameters for lubricants. Why even talk about pH?
Second confusion: What units are you using? The TBN unit should be mg KOH/ g lubricant?
mg/KOH is B.S?
TAN is mg KOH reqd to neutralise 1 g of Crude oil.
In the real world - Small TAN, as you say, is said to be present in new oil.
Therefore my original question remains unanswered: What is the TBN doing? Not fighting to The Last Man?
Are acidic molecules able to survive total destruction? Ions lurking with potential?
In order to measure TAN, the lab has to add KOH and measure mg/ g for neutralization?
How come KOH acts Then - But not in the First Place?
Yeah that probably wasn’t very well explained. We included discussion about aqueous pH because there’s a (relatively) new used oil analysis test called ipH or “apparent pH” which aims to test the corrosive potential of an oil. It’s a test that’s slowly being adopted by gas engine OEMs but isn’t very well understood. Your second point is correct - mg KOH / g is the correct unit!
@@LubricationExplained Thank you for your response :) At least we're on the same page now.
I have watched most of your series & it's usually, well explained.
The TAN/ TBN thing does seem abstruse. I'm thinking: the additive package, incl KOH, should be held in solution, in the engine oil; Albeit, non-aqueous. Seems this is achieved with non-polar base oil, by Ester, or Alkylated aromatic, polar solvent? Solution implies ionization, even when non-aqueous?
Acidic ions have corrosion potential, but are held, preferentially, by K+ ions?
This leads to the question as to how the lab determines the content?
And then, K in the lab report, comes under the heading of coolant entering the engine oil? (Also Na)
@@lesliedsouza4077 K and KOH are not used in oil or oil additives, KOH is used in lab tests.
How TAN & TBN coexist same time
Good question - it doesn't really seem to make sense does it? There's a couple of explanations. The first is that our understanding of acids and bases are shaped by aqueous solutions. In oil, the acids and bases aren't necessarily dissociated, so H+ ions and base molecules don't necessarily react with each other. But at the same time, most acid-base reactions are equilibrium reactions, in which not all the acid and base reacts with each other.
@@LubricationExplained How much % depletion of TBN you will suggest at which oil should be replaced?