Hi friends, Lots of great discussion in the comments (which is rare on TH-cam - be proud of yourselves.) Just a reminder - remember when you're reading and replying to each other's comments that there's another human being on the other end of the internet. With feelings and history and all that. (Comment with sonder.) Be as nice as you can no matter what. That's all. -Mash
I really enjoyed this video right up until the racism part. Don't get me wrong, I'm not FOR racism by any means, but I just don't think we have the same definition of the concept of racism. Racism is described as prejudice or discrimination on the "basis of (a persons) membership of a particular racial or ethnic group". I'm sorry, but while I am all for actors singing their own lines, any studio replacing the singing voice of an actor with one who can actually and quantifiably sing (thus guaranteeing quality) is not racist unless it is done BECAUSE of their race and NOT their singing ability and hiring actors to do those singing roles based on their race and NOT their singing ability, would be the very definition of racism in and of itself. Look, I'm not American and thus don't have the same world view as one, but I do live in a country that has struggled with racism and oppression (and far worse than that of the USA) so I do understand the concept. I suppose my retort to your analysis would be, were these singers being used BECAUSE of their skin colour or BECAUSE of their proven track record? Either way, you taught me a few things in this video and for that, I shall like the video and will consider subscribing to your channel. Thank you.
If the voice is similar enough to the actor, I don't really care. Not all singers can act, not all actors can sing. But everyone involved should absolutely be credited. I think it was Nightmare Before Christmas that surprised me when I saw two voices for a character, one specified they did the singing voice. I respect that.
I believe in the case of The Nightmare Before Christmas, Jack's singing voice is the composer of the film’s soundtrack, Danny Elfman. And then, they cast a separate actor who sounded similar to him to record Jack's speaking lines.
Agreed. It's the secrecy of it all that's creepy. One of the worst offenders was The Sound of Music soundtrack album. That album sold untold millions. Bill Lee (uncredited) sang all of Christopher Plummer's parts, Marjorie McKay sang all of Peggy Wood's parts. Yet the album cover only states "The Captain" and "Mother Abbess", suggesting it was Plummer and Wood singing. Lee and McKay are mentioned nowhere, and even today it's hard to find anything about their involvement at all. It's just so wrong. Even Bill Lee's wife who played one of the nuns heard on the song "Maria" is not credited, as if her presence might also blow their cover!
@@peteb1206 That's awful, so wrong :( I didn't know they didn't sing themselves. Anyone who helped make the thing happen should be credited. It's the plot of Singin in the Rain all over again :P
@@Shindai let's never forget the great work of Bill Lee, Ada Beth Lee and Marjorie McKay on The Sound Of Music, heard by someone somewhere around the world every single day.
A small caveat with the animated dubbing: a lot of times, it's not that the actor voicing a character can't sing well, it's that s/he doesn't sound LIKE THE CHARACTER when singing. Many times, a person's singing voice is quite different from his speaking voice, and hearing a difference in a single character can be jarring. Now, your Lion King example also has some flaws, as Jeremy Irons DID try to record for the song, but had problems with his voice part way through, which is why Jim Cummings was brought in to record the song instead (fun fact: he was also the singing voice of Rasputin in Anastasia, a non-Disney property). While it's nice to have someone who can sing and speak a role (and really, should be necessary for live-action), it should be a non-issue with animated films, so long as BOTH performers are given the proper credit for their contributions.
I feel so bad for Drew Seeley he’s sang so many songs and dubbed so many singing roles and barely get recognition for it. I never knew it was dubbed until I heard his voice on another soundtrack and realized he hadn’t been credited for his part.
@@morgangobin6550 it’s really obvious in Breaking Free. First part when Troy is nervous, it’s Zac, but when he gets confident and the strong instrumentation kicks in, it’s Drew. They don’t sound alike at all lol.
It's very simple just hire people who can sing. Is it that hard? If you're doing a movie of a broadway musical what's the harm in bringing in the actor who portrayed them on broadway. Yes, it does take some time to adjust from stage to screen, but it's not a hard task.
The problem is that the studios making this movie want popular actors who can assure them people will go and buy tickets, so they sacrifice the quality of their voices. producers only care about how much money a movie can make, so they choose who they think is the most popular, this is why social media numbers are becoming a big part of the casting process. the amount of followers certain actors have is important. so this has nothing to do with actors adjusting from stage to screen, sadly.
well in some instances it wouldn't work to have the original Broadway actors due to time. they did that in rent, but it had been so long that none of the actors looked like 20 year olds
I’m glad Julie Andrew’s got to be the lead in the Sound of Music. She is a wonderful “Triple Threat”. Meaning that she can act, sing and dance! We need more triple threats these days....
Shhh. Don't tell anyone. But without the mildly racist context………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………I do too.
I liked Donny as well but since I've seen Jackie Chan's Mandarin Chinese version of the song on a Mulan special feature I wonder if Disney could've got him to do an English language version of this song instead of Donny. It may surprise some people but Jackie is a really great singer along with the rest of his talents & skills. He's a true renaissance man.
Emma Watson was such an awful choice for Beauty and the Beast!!! Disney could have cast an unknown with a beautiful singing voice and the movie would have done just as well because it's Beauty and the Beast! I think Disney needs to cast their movies the same way they cast Moana...they're definitely headed in the right direction with that one.
Bennie Fontana, I completely agree. And Emma Watson didn't even fit the roll well. I would have been much happier with a different singer/actor. I think someone more like Anne Hathaway would be amazing as a character like Belle.
Othelie Moor true but he put enough emotion and charisma into his voice that it doesn't really matter how technically good he was. Watch the Nostalgia Critic's video on dubbing, he talks about both The Rock and Emma Watson.
Well, she did look the part. right? I agree with you. I would rather see an unknown or relatively unknown who can really sing then a "famous" actor who someone has been autotuned to oblivion and back.
I think its odd that people are saying Emma Stone can't sing, wasn't she a real musical theatre kid growing up? She was Sally Bowles in Cabaret for a little, she did lots of youth theatre, she took voice lessons for several years! I honestly didn't think she waa bad I thought she did really well but maybe that's just me I guess...
As a non-white person, I think that although dubbing non-white characters with white voices isn't exactly a good thing, actual onscreen whitewashing is a much bigger problem. West Side Story, for example- you mentioned that Natalie Wood is playing a puerto rican, but not that some of the Sharks are played by white actors, and all of them, white or not, are caked in one shade of brown makeup (Rita Moreno has discussed how she wasn't happy about this, and that she feels it ignores the variety of Latinx skin tones). Honestly, dubbing isn't a problem unless you aren't being mindful with your casting- racism isn't an issue inherent with dubbing, it's a problem with casting directors and the racist-as-hell studio system.
evva Preach, being latina that is my biggest gripe about wss, I still love it but I hate the whitewashing asoect of it, even in the dubbing!! the accent in marias singing voice... 😫😫😫 wonderfull movie, racist hollywood behind it
It's hard to watch because the story, dancing, and technical direction are so good, but the casting is uncomfortable. I'm usually able to look past it. Thankfully, it's a pretty commonly performed show, so it's not difficult to find a good production with good casting and enjoy it without reservation. (Though unfortunately some productions still cast white people as the Sharks... yeesh. Another issue for another discussion.)
Much agreed, evva. The issue is that with voice acting, it's gets problematic. The art of voice acting is SO different from onscreen acting, that obviously you better be casting someone of the right ethnicity when necessary, BUT voice acting...is just that. VOICE acting. It's literally ALL about the voice, so there's a whole lot of grey area there. I do believe however, that finding someone of the appropriate ethnicity even in voice acting should be a priority now. Even Judy Kuhn was told that she'd do the whole role of Pocahontas if they didn't find an actual Native American to speak the role on their search, which makes that story VERY odd. Judy was the first cast, and she's the singing voice. Never in the history of animated musicals, or ANY movie musical at all, can I think of another instance where the singing voice was cast first, it's always the speaking voice first.
Oh I'm not surprised, I've known that fun piece of info for a long time. It's just still very unusual in general that a singing voice is cast first. Judy has said in interviews herself that she also know's that it's unusual.
I mean I thought Emma Stone's performance was good, her voice wasn't strong but she gave an powerful emotionally distinctive performance. Which is honestly kind of in the vein of old broadway with stars like Elaine Stritch, Carol Channing, and such, who didn't have the best voices but really sold their songs with their presence and performance! Same with Anne Hathaway, I think it depends on how good they are at giving an emotional performance and director's and actor's preference. If they can't sing or act the part then they should be dubbed, but if their voice adds to the song emotionally, or gives it some kind of power then I'm all for a kind of bad or un-special voice singing in a movie!
This was my opinion of the Rock in Moana as well. No, he wasn't the best singer, but it worked for the song and his part, so I enjoyed it; as opposed to Emma Watson in BatB who... I didn't mind as much as some, like she was *fine*, but I felt like handicapped the rest of the cast. Everyone was excellent but her, and they all toned down to seem less overwhelmingly better, which is a bit of a shame. Like, I half think it was a stylistic choice (weirdly to make it seem less like the musical more than the original movie) that afterwards allowed them to hire a less-good singer, but I kinda wish they hadn't made it. *Everyone* else was so good, it would've been so good to hear them just go for it instead of talk-singing all the time.
The problem was not Emma Stone, entierly. The movie had NO memorable songs or plot for that matter. She did the best with what they gave her, I agree, but they gave her nothing.
Actually yes there are ( a shortage that is). Talent is a word thrown around too loosely these days. The "talent" you need for "America's Got Talent" will not hold up under the drudge of a four-month shooting schedule of a modern movie. The ability to hold an audience on stage does not translate to fifteen seconds of a scene shot over three days.
I understand not liking emma watson's overproduced autotuned voice but, was emma stone really that bad? I actually loved her voice, It wasn't broadway worthy but it was totally fit for a hollywood movie
12345 Nltsaaegcj I didn't mind Emma Stone's voice, but I think I would have liked the songs better if someone who could really sing sang them. Ryan Gosling's voice on the other hand...
12345 Nltsaaegcj Yes! Like I JUST watched The Last Five Years with Anna Kendrick and I think she would have been great singing Audition. I almost fell asleep during that song, but I think I would have really felt all the feelings if it was sung better. And she could bring the sass in A Lovely Night (my favourite song) like Emma Stone, but elevate it with her song and dance talents. Honestly, it just should have been Anna and Jeremy Jordan again. And then since the stars have better voices and range, better songs could have been written for them. Win-win.
I just finally saw La La Land last night and I honestly didn't think Emma Stone's singing was that bad. Maybe not the strongest, but she sounded pretty enough. Ryan Gosling was worse. That said, I agree with the rest of this video. I firmly believe Aaron Tveit should play Fiyero in the upcoming Wicked movie. He's played the role on Broadway before, and he still looks 25 (despite actually being 33). Cast Lea Michelle as Elphaba (because, let's be honest with ourselves, that makes the most sense) and it'll work out perfectly.
Kaija Schmauss totally agree, I heard rumours about nicole shretzinger(fucking mispelled it sorry) being elphaba in the wicked movie, I honetly LOVE nicole she is fuckin fantastic buuuut I think she may be a bit too old for the part
Kaija Schmauss I don't think Lea Michele is a good fit for Elphaba, frankly. I think Elphaba's voice should be somewhat harsh and piercing. Lea Michele's voice is too pretty. It'd be like casting a young Barbra as Elphaba, and that just wouldn't fit. I'd be in favor of finding an unknown for that role and having stars be cast in other roles. I think Anna Kendrick would make a pretty good Glinda.
MC Wyman I see your point. I just feel like she sounds so much like a young Idina Menzel that she seems like the most obvious choice to me. I would love to see Anna Kendrick in the role though. She was amazing in The Last 5 Years. I'd be 100% up for an unkown in the role too. As long as they have the range to pull off the incredibly difficult vocals of the show, I'm happy.
Ah the age of musicals. Unfortunately, you might have a bit of short sightedness due to your relative age. For example...My Fair Lady. It was a well known fact that Audrey Hepburn couldn't sing. She was known as a fabulous dancer with those enormous eyes and waifish looks. As a perpetual waif, she was perfect. BIG HINT HERE. We all knew about the dubbing!! We knew that she couldn't sing, there was this big controversy about why she was cast and not Julie Andrews. But then...neither could Rex Harrison sing. In fact, I believe that it was he who first popularized the "spoken song". As I was a teen...and wildly in love with musicals...I remember it quite clearly. I also remember following quite closely the costuming saga. Cecil Beaton's designs were anxiously awaited and featured in Look magazine at the time. So your assertion that Hepburn would have won if she had sang is in error...because she didn't have a singing voice. Julie Andrews got it for her performance. Oh my stars, that was a GREAT year for musicals! Reynolds' dubbing came at a time when her vocal talents were unknown. Having been cast as an actress (at 18, a definite unknown quantity) and not as a voice talent, it comes as no surprise because she DIDN'T show high powered talent then. The "young talent" of the day was in flux. Judy Garland had aged out of teen roles, Jane Withers had gone into comedy, and Shirley Temple had "retired". Reynolds fit the bill, and was hired as a pretty face that fit the role. It wasn't until "Tammy and the Bachelor" that we found out that she had a voice that could carry a musical...5 years later. As you well know, musical productions are extremely expensive to produce, so it's no surprise that dubbing was standard at the time. Also, because of the expense, there was a dearth of musical films after the '60's. As for animation voices, your point of "whitewashing" is simply, IMO, wrong. The immortal June Foray has voiced boys, girls, animals, dolls, what-have-you. Her voice will long outlive any of us! That she voiced an old Asian lady speaks to her talent, not to whitewashing. Given the cast of that production, I'm surprised that you tried so hard to pick Ms. Foray for such a slur. I might have much quicker picked Eddie Murphy for "not being ethnically proper." Given the racial hated in Asia for non Asians, I wonder who voiced Mu Shu in the dubbing there? After all this, the short version is...dubbing is not a bad thing. People are not stupid, they know when it is and is not being used, especially when a famous name's voice is concerned. On this point I agree....voice over actors need to be credited.
@@steveb1164 Only because that's what the studios did. I saw a documentary about that movie and some others and they had footage with Audrey's real singing and she was , maybe not GREAT, but right in line with the character; sweet and pretty. They SHOULD have left that in, (raspberry)(left arm bent fingers extended and waving, pinky at 90 degree angle to rest)Jodi Tov! Eyetallyan gesture which if given at da Godfadder getzcha da kiss o' death.
As a professional singer myself, Audrey's voice is pretty but just isn't strong enough to carry the role of Eliza. Julie had the voice but she was passed over for Audrey because she had a name in film and Julie had never done film. Audrey truly did a great job, but I personally prefer Julie's Eliza especially since she originated the role. Even though both movies did very well and Julie and Andrey we're good friends, I love how it worked out for Julie in the end with getting Mary Poppins. Disney didn't care she was a nobody and because he picked her, Julie got her first Oscar and became a huge film star from her first film ever. Not to mention that Mary Poppins crushed My Fair Lady at the box office and is still more popular to this day. It does makes you wonder though if things would have turned out better for the movie and Audrey if Audrey had been allowed to use her own voice. Who knows?
Audrey- acting, charming, stunning, dancing, charismatic, & capable of singing in character like in Breakfast at Tiffany’s 💎 Julie can sing & act, but gives me no charm & no charisma. 📉 but props for showing her boobs 👀 in a movie 🍿
My issue with My Fair Lady isn't that Audrey Hepburn couldn't sing; it's that neither she nor Marnie Nixon were convincing Cockneys. When that's the McGuffin that's supposed to drive the plot!
You had me at first, but lost me when you moved to animation. As someone intimately familiar with that industry, voice acting is a bit of a different world, much like theatrical casting is different from film. As long as they're not paying a racial stereotype, voice actors flow from character to character without much regard for race, and it goes both ways, racially, white or not. It's a small community that's difficult to break into. I understand your point regarding Mulan, but it's really about the sound. They tried with Moana, but for tv where they don't have that kind of budget to go hunting, it's gonna depend on whether there's a racially appropriate actor with the talent available in that small community, or if they even have the budget to add another cast member (since most show's actors play multiple parts anyway).
Mamma Mia was ruined by a cast that was 20 years too old and who couldn't sing. I'd rather have a cast of unknowns who are more age appropriate and who can legitimately sign. Lord knows there are enough starving artists in Hollywood and hanging around Broadway.
@@stephaniemitchellmitchell746 Hahahahahahaha lol. Mamma Mia 2 was sooooo much better than MM1 in terms of singing, acting and the songs were better imo
Boy, this really gets off-track. It starts as a discussion about dubbing, but ends up a discussion about racism. Also, there is some misinformation. Marni Nixon is by no means the most prolific dubber in movie musicals. There were many other dubbers who worked much more than she did. Look up Martha Mears, for example. Also, dubbing did not increase after the studio system was broken up. It was extremely common all during the 1930s and 1940s. One more thing that could’ve been mentioned is the fact that dubbing is the rule, not the exception, in Bollywood movies. People in India prefer to hear the voices of their favorite singers, rather than the voices of the people onscreen. So it’s not unusual to meld the two. Here is my clip of the many other dubbers who have had an impact in American movie musicals. th-cam.com/video/_q1W7x6UfeM/w-d-xo.html
I had never heard that interview with Jim Cummings re The Lion King. I'd always heard that Irons threw his voice out halfway through, and Cummings stepped in to finish Be Prepared. On another note, my favorite example of voice actor actually singing in a Disney film is Tom Hulce as Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Is he a great singer? No. Does his singing voice capture the emotion of that character? Absolutely.
Yes, not casting accurate races in the 50s and 60s was most likely because of an unwillingness to look for them, and or want to pay black, or hispanic singers. However, with Disney, in the 90s it could be that B.D Wong (Who I adore) had the talking voice they liked, but he has a deeper voice than Donny Osmond, and perhaps they wanted the higher pitch for the singing? Obviously they weren't unwilling to cast Asians for the movie i.e. B.D Wong (Li Shang, talking) Lea Salonga (Mulan, singing) Ming-Na Wen (Mulan, talking) Freda Fo Shen (Fa Li) James Hong (Chi Fu) Soon-Tek Oh (Fa Zhou) James Shigeta (General Li) George Tekei (First Ancestor) Pat Morita (The emporer) Gedde Watanabe (Ling), these are the main voices of the movie. How was Disney rascist in casting the movie? I mean, if not casting every role racially accurate, then is Hamilton rascist?
It may have not been inherently racist but they still took an oportunity for an asian actor to showcase his talent and gave it to a white actor, also hamilton's racebending is completely justified to further the themes of the story, the racebending on hollywood movies has no meaning behind it whatsoever
So the other 9 (that I mentioned, there were several more as extras) don't count because they wanted casted a voice they thought fit better? If this was live action I'd agree with you, so they weren't (even if they had tried) sending a very well done rascist message if no one can see the voice. How is Hamilton different? Is it because Miranda intentionaly did not cast any white actors for lead roles other than the villian? I love Hamilton, I know the music by heart, and I love the entire cast too. Having a literal 'whites need not apply' casting decision seems quite rascist. Do you simply mean "Changing historical figures to anything but white' racebending is okay, and "Using different actors who have singing voices we prefer" "racebending is not okay? Please back up your argument and tell how, by yours and Tommy's definition (not mine by the way I don't mind the different races because it doesn't change the story) how that doesn't apply to Hamilton.
Hello! Good points, all around. Let me take a stab at some of this. First - you're totally right about the diverse casting of Mulan. For me, that makes the FEW times they picked a white actor over an Asian actor even just a little more offensive. It's like, "Oh! Oh Disney! You tried so hard and you were SO CLOSE!" But to the Hamilton point (a point that is coming up a lot in these comments): first off - there are white people in Hamilton. Not a majority, but there are. Just like how for DECADES there were POC in other broadway musicals. Not a majority, but there were. Hamilton is EXPLICITLY commenting on this race dynamic. It's a part of the thesis of the show. Mulan, on the other hand, does not have some underlying commentary that involves white people playing Chinese people. Disney is not trying to make some deep, metaphorical point when they cast Osmond as Shang. That's the difference. Also, in many ways, Lin-Manuel Miranda's choice to cast Hamilton that way is in direct response to choices exactly like the one Disney made with Osmond. I really think the question is this: did Disney audition actual Asian actors for the singing voice of Shang? I might be jumping to conclusions…but I really doubt it.
I guess I misunderstood your point in the video. I do not find what Lin Manuel Miranda did necessarrily rascist, I think race is an incredibly important part of our world and history. I think one of the most amazing things about theater is that so many stories can be told where the color of the actors doesn't change the story, you can have a white actor and an Asian actor playing brothers and, in the theater especially I won't doubt it for a second. That being said there are shows that race is definitely an important part of the story, for example, The Color Purple just wouldn't work with white people. or even Asian people playing the roles. One of the (many) things I love about Hamilton is that it doesn't matter (to me at least) the color of the people playing the roles, anyone from any color around the globe could play Burr and his dialogue would still be just as powerful. That being said, with the overly P.C culture I need to do a little research for myself when rascism, or sexism is called. I appreciate your channel, and this video was really interesting and entertaining. Because even though I know I'm probably going to disagree with your politics I love your channel and your videos. I also think, because of your comment I understand what you were saying in the video a little more clearly.
I love Donny Osmond's version, but I wish the same after learning of Wong's theatre background. Wong could sing it for the final film, and Osmond's song would be an excellent cover, if we lived in an alternate universe.
I say if you're looking for a certain "look" cast someone with that look, (who can act) if they can't sing dub them. Give the actual singer all the credit they deserve. I don't think it's wrong if you change races with the singer because it's a voice.
Or if doing alot of "exercise" activity, moving around more than merely dancing, Also can help if the music, say a band is playing at the same time, to let the vocals be heard.
I don't get why do you say that's racist? Maybe I'm used to Spanish dubbing, but i don't see any relation between the original actor and the dubbing actor. I mean, not every person can make a good dub, and that's why dubbing actors exists. You have to find a voice that fits the character in personality, NOT in their appearance. Seriously, I don't get what your point was at the end. Weren't you talking about dubbing musicals again?
Edmundo Sanz-Daza He was focusing in what he thinks are the main priblems with dubbing a) taking away the voice from an actor b) taking away a voice from a character and giving it a racist accent I undestand that in spanish dubs (or any other dubs) Is not that much of a problem but this racism problem lies on mainly english spoken performances (I mean they are movies from the US one of the countries that struggles the most with racism while being one of the most racially diverse ones) But his points do tie in I mean that's why WSS and the King and I are so controversial as good as they are, they jsut weren't sensitive towards the peopke they were trying to portray, in spanish dubs It's not that much of a problem since we don't get to hear the latino accents in the performances and when there are accents from other races we don't find them racist since they either a) tone down the performance or b) we don't really care about stereotypes when they aren't about us
@Edo Sanz: Excellent point. I was going to say the same thing. It's about sound, NOT appearance. This guy's comment show just how hypersensitive his generation is about race. Everybody needs to get over it. I'm surprised he didn't say dubbing for animals is animism, too! LOL It's NOT about appearance.
lcowles were not hypersensitive to race. We simply acknowledge that its happening. People back then did not acknowledge that kind of thing even though they knew it was strange. There’s only one puerto rican in West Side Story thats Rita Moreno. The rest of them are painted with spray tans. Thats a reality of the time doesn’t mean its not racist.
@@L1623VP "Get over it" -- Ah, the ever-helpful rejoinder when we discuss treating people with respect. Hollywood shapes the nation's, and even the world's, perceptions of groups. A perfect example: the popular view of Native Americans as the "bad guys" or them all living in tipis and wearing warbonnets. Hollywood has historically stuck to racist stereotypes for actors of color, or white actors playing characters of color. That effectively erases those groups of people. There is no shortage of appropriate, talented performers to play these roles, so it's time to stop pretending that the system has been based on merit.
@@Tracymmo I live in the American south and I have never heard anyone in real life have that perception (not even my grandparents). I'm sure it happens, but I haven't encountered it. I don't think it's all that widespread.
As an old movie buff, I applaud your excellent work on this. Great topic that isn’t often discussed these days. And I had NO idea that veteran voice actors Marni Nixon and June Foray were in Mulan. And DONNY OSMOND? WTF? I have watched Mulan at least 2 dozen times with my kids and never knew that was him. 😱
I think that dubbing is fine if all parties agree ahead of time and are compensated fairly. Of course, the better alternative is to cast proven singers, but that's just a pipe dream a lot of the time.
At 5:33 I had to smile. I think you said "exasterbated" rather than "exacerbated by the television." Oh don't worry, I think you are absolutely fascinating in your analysis and the range of your knowledge, and the technical skill with which these postings are put together. New viewer here, ardent Fan but what was on your mind at that moment?
such an interesting discussion! I remember being truly devastated when I found out that Natalie Wood and Richard Beymer did not themselves sing in West Side Story. I too am very happy that there are movie musicals being made but I cannot stand some of the singing!! That's why I am so wary of the new Wicked movie
I'm pretty sure Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling were casted because the director didn't want big broadway actors, they wanted people with decent voices that sounded nice, not amazing, not show stopping, just nice. It also kinda fit the story, they're average people so they'd have average voices. It makes sense.
As far as the whole animation thing goes I think in most situations it’s very flexible I mean i don’t think they disliked BD Wongs Voice or anything but I think for the character they preferred Donnys voice and I have no problem with that. It’s all about portraying one character. In that situation its not discriminatory it’s simply about getting a job done. I find that point to only be a highly whiny and dramaticized assumption
Problem is, very few of them are particularly competent actors, either. It's just that the public (and even much of the industry itself) can no longer tell the difference. Being a dancer who can barely carry a tune in a bucket with non-existent technique while reciting lines "in character" is thought to constitute being a consummate triple-threat these days.
Stage acting & screen acting are different disciplines, though, arguably. This is a problem primary for the director to handle, but it would help to have an actor familiar with acting on the silver screen.
I think the animated world is a whole different situation. One of the great things about voice acting and its actors is the magic they have to sound so different and unlike themselves. I don't see any problem of a white woman voicing an asian character if it is the best person for the job. How do you know older asian women even auditioned for the role and if they could pull off the difficulty of voice acting? And I know I could get a lot of slack for this, but when it comes to BD Wong, maybe he just couldn't handle the song? Yes he is a talented actor, but Disney has always had high standards when it comes to music in their movies. If they were really racist, i don't think they would've made all of these movies in the first place. We would just have dozens more Cinderellas and Frozens. I just can't stand calling a person or company racist if no real research has been done to back up the statement with solid evidence.
I can't believe that there was not even one qualified Asian performer in film and theater to take that role. Check out the documentary "The Slanted Screen."
This has been a running argument for literally TWO DECADES, about Hank Azaria voicing Apu, the Quickie Mart owner on "Family Guy", but it's only the last YEAR anyone got riled up about it. I'll tell you what ticked me off lately: The film version of "Crazy Rich Asians" had almost NO Asians in the production crew. I watched the credits at the end, which I usually find pointless and a necessary evil so everyone gets credit where it's due (even the CATERING COMPANY and the DRIVERS, for cripes-sake! Who cares!), except on Marvel flicks for the teasers. But I DID on "Asians" because I was just curious exactly how MANY Asians were behind the scenes, and there were, sadly, almost NONE!
A dubbed voice in an animated film is really its own issue, and it transcends race. To borrow a line from "My Favorite Year": "In the beginning was the word and the word was FUNNY!" Sometimes casting is ethnically irrelevant: the Witch of the Waste in the English version of Studio Ghibli's "Howl's Moving Castle" was done by Lauren Bacall because the story happened on a non-existent fantasy world and she was PERFECT! You might as well criticize visual effects as being too realistic. Both movies and live theater require that famous "suspension of disbelief" to allow anyone to enjoy any performance at all!
Such an interesting point! The issue of dubbing has its own variants here in Spain (and I reckon in several other non-English speaking countries). Up to the sixties or so, some movie musicals were completely dubbed (The sound of music, My fair lady) and in some others, the dialogue would be dubbed but not the songs (The Wizard of Oz, Singin' in the rain). At some point, the second option prevailed and songs in films stopped being dubbed, so when a song comes, subtitles appear. That is, unless it's an animated film or if its "family oriented", then the songs are still dubbed. (Then there's the horrible case of Phantom of the opera, but that seems to be a decision made under litres and litres of alcohol). That has created several problems in the las few years with Disney's live action remakes, especially with Beauty and the beast. Since it's a movie that draws so much in nostalgia, they HAD to dub the songs so the audience would recongise the lyrics thew knew from the original movie. But since songs haven' been dubbed in live-action musicals for a long time, the art of song voiceover is not as perfected as it used to be (and the fact of them using "celebrity voices" instead of expert dubbing actors doesn't help either). Long story short... You get the cringy dubbing of the new Beauty and the beast, which damages even more the already controversial dubbing industry.
The issue that I TOTALLY didn't think about while making this video that I now find fascinating is the journey a Hollywood-produced movie takes in non-english dubs. Obviously I don't know nearly enough about it, but the more I look into it the more nuanced and interesting it sounds.
WOWSER! Superb show with great editing. Then there's the charm of having an actor actually sing on their own like Ray Bolger singing Once Upon A Time. Fantastic performance.
One of the weirdest examples of dubbing occurred In She's Working Her Way Through College (1952), where he did all his own singing (He did have a fine singing voice.) except for one song. Hal Derwin, who dubbed singing voices for many film performers, did the dubbed voice. It was easy to tell the difference between the two voices. I guess the studio thought people would never notice.
Fascinating. Now do one where dubbed actors got to sing for themselves. Like Audrey Hepburn doing Moon River in Breakfast at Tiffany's and Natalie Wood in Inside Daisy Clover.
there could be many reasons why the dubbing in mulan was done and none of them had to do with race. it just begins with the fact that B. D. Wong may have had the wrong type of singing voice. for you to say that is was done because of race is very disingenuous of you to do.
I think you're not right on the animated videos. I'm not sure what the problem really is when the character is fictional and animated. When you cast actors of different races to their parts in live action, and disguise them as different races then it becomes problematic. But Disney did nothing wrong here.
I don't know whether the rules apply in animated movies. Although I agree that B.D. Wong should've had sung his parts in Mulan, but we arrive at the quandary that Lea Salonga, who is Asian, sang Mulan's part. She also sang Jasmine's part in Aladdin. On those aspects, Disney got it right. It would come off as cherry-picking if you only point out the parts where there's apparent "white-washing" but not on the parts where the dubber's race and the animated character are congruent. So I'm not really sure whether that critique will be logically consistent.
I watched a video on dubbing & Debbie Reynolds did sing most of the songs- the only dubbing I think was the part where she was dubbing for another actress.
Just allow one of the many Broadway Stars play their roles in the damn films. Julie Andrews was Guinevere in "Camelot" on Broadway and Vanessa Redgrave was cast in the film. Julie Andrews played Eliza Doolittle in "My Fair Lady" on Broadway. Audrey Hepburn was cast in the film. The studios didn't think Julie Andrews had enough "NAME RECOGNITION". Yet, who won the OSCAR in 1965? Not Audrey Hepburn in "my Fair Lady". It was Julie Andrews as "Mary Poppins"! If a role requires singing, cast an actor who can sing. As far as Animation is concerned. There was a time when the profession of "Voice Acting" was a REAL Profession. Very rarely did one hear an on screen or onstage actor voicing a character, commercial, etc. I Loved those Actors. Now, well known actors are scooping up all of the jobs from Voice Actors, who are specially talented and often trained in VOICE ACTING. Think Looney Toons and Mel Blanc.
I don't think Marni Nixon's dubbing cost Audrey Hepburn an Oscar nomination. It didn't hurt Dorothy Dandridge in CARMEN JONES or Deborah Kerr in THE KING AND I (another actress that Nixon dubbed), and it certainly didn't hurt Rita Moreno, who actually won for WEST SIDE STORY. I think the fact that Julie Andrews was unceremoniously passed over for Hepburn in the film version is what cost Audrey the nomination and what ultimately won Andrews the Oscar, which was a sentimental win. I don't think Nixon's non-singing was much of a factor. Let me put it this way: If MY FAIR LADY had been written directly for the screen (bypassing the whole Broadway run) and Hepburn had been cast and dubbed, I think she would have gotten an Oscar nod. It was the whole 'Julie fiasco' that muddied the waters.
Why was Debbie Reynolds dubbed??? That's so baffling. She's literally a singer. In Lion King, Matthew Broderick does the speaking voice of adult Simba - but not the singing - when he's also a Broadway singer. Baffling.
Let me just get my petty comment out of the way - the subject of your video isn't dubbing, it's ghost singing. All movies are dubbed to some extent or another. Dubbing is any sound that was not recorded synchronously in real time when a scene was filmed. That covers everything from the standard practice of pre-recording songs in musicals, to re-recording dialog by the actor later in a sound studio (also known as ADR or looping), to replacing the onscreen actors voice with another actor (like James Earl Jones doing the voice of Darth Vader), to localizing dialog into another language. And, yes, having the actor sing to someone else's pre-recorded voice is also a type of dubbing, but technically that specific practice is ghost singing. That's the topic you are addressing here, not the post-production practice of fixing dialog mistakes in the sound studio. That aside - I Iove your videos and have shared them with many other people.
New subscriber here, and I am loving the channel. I could not agree more with the article. I've been telling people this for years. There are far too many talented people out there who could use the work, and the product would be so much better!
I would argue that "Audition" from Lala Land brought many filmgoers to tears, not because it was perfect, but because it felt real...only a good actress can do that. Is Emma Stone a great singer? No. But she is an effective singer. On the other hand, Russell Crowe's voice was so awful it was distracting in Les Miserables.
Like I can see why this is a problem, but can you name even one Dutch theatre actor who is from Cuban decent? I think the Netherlands' problem is that there just aren't many actors let alone actors from Cuban descent.
But then again ... we can’t say people of other ethnicities can’t play white characters ... can we? Say, all-black Shakespeare? I mean if it’s a question of talent, it’s another story.
This whole idea of people needing to BE the race of the voice they make is RIDICULOUS. Stop that. It's a cancel culture meme that has gone out of control. A black man voiced Homer Simpson here in Brazil for decades (he has passed away). So? No one cared. Stop this nonsense.
Don't necessarily agree with everything you said on the video, mainly the second part where you talk about animation dubbing and racism, but still think the video is interesting and raised interesting points.
You have significantly simplified the production of early sound film - especially 'The Jazz Singer'. The Al Jolson scenes were absolutely shot live. He actually didn't have any lines (he was only supposed to sing). He added the lines himself knowing it was too expensive for Warner Bros to stop the recording process - which was on wax discs at the time.
…so…yes…I have significantly simplified the production of early sound film. And also I never said that Jolson was dubbed. Other singers in the movie were dubbed. I tried to make that clear in the video (I think it's the part that begins "to be clear here") but my apologies if that didn't come across.
La La Land for me I feel like they intended to make them sound like that. It kinda sounds realistic not perfectly hit the notes with perfectly vibrato and other perfectly vocal techniques. There're scene where they sang live and the rest were dubbed so if they want to have a perfect voice they can just tuning here and there or recording over and over until they get the perfect one. Unlike Beauty n the Beast when they sing you immediately know it's dubbed. The same with Les Mis' where they have these Broadway and West End talented cast but they didn't sing like they would usually sing in Theater but it worked so well.
I think you need to get a dictionary and look up the word "racist." When you overuse it and apply it to every situation, you dilute the meaning. Also, isn't it interesting you made such a huge point about B.D. Wong and at the end mentioned he played Linus in "You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown" but totally forgot that Linus is not Asian.
There is plenty of racism in Hollywood without attacking voice dubbing singers. I do agree that they should get credited with their part in the production. Now, look at Broadway and "Hamilton" ... how is casting a non-white person in the role of an actual historical white character? While I think the show and performers are great, it seems to be OK in this case to change races, but you say the reverse is unacceptable.
Hello! I absolutely love your videos and I always especially enjoy your tony lead up videos (tony show of the week and guides to the tony's) and was wondering if you were planning on making them again this year? I was also wondering what your personal favorite show of the year was?
Not only did Betty Noyes dub Debbie Reynolds singing voice while she was singing for Lina Lamont (Jean Hagen), Debbie Reynolds SPEAKING voice was dubbed when she was dubbing the speaking voice for Lina Lamont - by Jean Hagen.
Much as I enjoy Mash's videos, this one smacks of hypocrisy. Mash gets all self-righteous about actors playing characters who are members of a ethnic or racial group to which they do not belong. I notice it's alright for Black actors to play White characters. Brian Stokes Mitchell played Fred Graham/Petruchio (an actor with an English surname playing an Italian character). No problem. I've seen comments by people who want to "cancel" Olivier's film "Othello" but apparently the PC crowd doesn't mind Denzel Washington playing the Scot MacBeth. Add to this characters who are rewritten as Black (i.e., Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, a character of Scandinacian descent, rewritten as Black on Supergirl). How close is this going to be cut? Only a Thai can play the King of Siam, not a Japanese or Chinese actor. What about casting an actor whose people came from Russia as Eliza Doolittle?
franinconverse But while that might make a good movie, it won't count for anything if casual moviegoers don't go out of their way to see it. Musicals are far from the most popular movie genre right now, and unless big names are attached to the project, chances are people won't go and see them.
I have a feeling the reason musicals aren't popular is because they keep casting people who can't sing or dance in the major roles. And it's not like there isn't any crossover. There are major names in Hollywood who can also sing and dance. There's a reason Chicago won an Oscar.
When it comes to animation and dubbing, well, you'd be surprised how many voice actors can fool you with their identity. For example, the title character of Samurai Jack is voiced by a black man Phil Lamarr. Another example that comes to mind is Cree Summers whose resume will astound what she's pulled off. While I get where your coming from, I feel like voice acting is a whole other ball game and writing it off as racist seems a little too harsh.
I think the greatest showman did a decent job of crediting the singer who dubbed for the character of Jenny Lind. I know recognizing her was a big deal among the people I knew that saw the movie, but that may also be because she’s from a town very close to where I live so that excitement played into it as well.
Just found out about these videos, nice to see a channel like this focused on musical theater. Also thanks for ruining my life with that Donny Osmond reveal, had no idea. Subscribed
I agree that neither Watson or Stone can really sing, but I actually thought Emma Stone was a much better choice for La La Land than Emma Watson was for BatB. They didn't shy away from their just-okay singing voices in La La Land, but in BatB they did so much crap to her voice in the studio that it seemed like THEY weren't happy with their own casting choice. Also, listening to Emma Watson's voice next to Audra Macdonald's was just painful. There are SO MANY actors in Hollywood and other places that can sing. Why are we not casting them?!
What is wrong with Marylyn Horne dubbing for Dorothy Dandridge? It's about music, nothing else. Finding racism under every rock is such a bore especially when it's applied to art.
I was interested in this video due to the topic of movie musical dubbing, but I was soon saddened by the gratuitous easy target of calling things RACIST. If a black person was dubbed by a white actor, they call it racist. The very nature of ACTING is being someone you are not. So, it just gets so nauseating when this "woke" generation consistently pushes racist accusations upon those who were just doing a job the best way they knew how with the talent they had at the time. So, please spare me the unnecessary racist rhetoric where racism was not meant at all. Otherwise, we may have to call racist the black actors who voice white characters in animation. Do you see how nonsensical that is? Look, we're all human and we all need to be getting along together without the incessant drumbeat of pushing racism everywhere.
Have you ever heard a surprise vocalist in a modern movie musical? Like James Marsden in Hairspray. I am obsessed with his Corny Collins. Who knew Cyclops could sing. I don't know if he has broadway cred.
Hi friends,
Lots of great discussion in the comments (which is rare on TH-cam - be proud of yourselves.)
Just a reminder - remember when you're reading and replying to each other's comments that there's another human being on the other end of the internet. With feelings and history and all that. (Comment with sonder.)
Be as nice as you can no matter what. That's all.
-Mash
Also, remember to love B. D. Wong. Always.
You are really great at what you do!
I really enjoyed this video right up until the racism part. Don't get me wrong, I'm not FOR racism by any means, but I just don't think we have the same definition of the concept of racism.
Racism is described as prejudice or discrimination on the "basis of (a persons) membership of a particular racial or ethnic group". I'm sorry, but while I am all for actors singing their own lines, any studio replacing the singing voice of an actor with one who can actually and quantifiably sing (thus guaranteeing quality) is not racist unless it is done BECAUSE of their race and NOT their singing ability and hiring actors to do those singing roles based on their race and NOT their singing ability, would be the very definition of racism in and of itself.
Look, I'm not American and thus don't have the same world view as one, but I do live in a country that has struggled with racism and oppression (and far worse than that of the USA) so I do understand the concept. I suppose my retort to your analysis would be, were these singers being used BECAUSE of their skin colour or BECAUSE of their proven track record?
Either way, you taught me a few things in this video and for that, I shall like the video and will consider subscribing to your channel. Thank you.
If the voice is similar enough to the actor, I don't really care. Not all singers can act, not all actors can sing. But everyone involved should absolutely be credited. I think it was Nightmare Before Christmas that surprised me when I saw two voices for a character, one specified they did the singing voice. I respect that.
I believe in the case of The Nightmare Before Christmas, Jack's singing voice is the composer of the film’s soundtrack, Danny Elfman. And then, they cast a separate actor who sounded similar to him to record Jack's speaking lines.
Serenity S as a kid I thought it was the same person, they do sound great together.
Agreed. It's the secrecy of it all that's creepy. One of the worst offenders was The Sound of Music soundtrack album. That album sold untold millions. Bill Lee (uncredited) sang all of Christopher Plummer's parts, Marjorie McKay sang all of Peggy Wood's parts. Yet the album cover only states "The Captain" and "Mother Abbess", suggesting it was Plummer and Wood singing. Lee and McKay are mentioned nowhere, and even today it's hard to find anything about their involvement at all. It's just so wrong. Even Bill Lee's wife who played one of the nuns heard on the song "Maria" is not credited, as if her presence might also blow their cover!
@@peteb1206 That's awful, so wrong :( I didn't know they didn't sing themselves. Anyone who helped make the thing happen should be credited. It's the plot of Singin in the Rain all over again :P
@@Shindai let's never forget the great work of Bill Lee, Ada Beth Lee and Marjorie McKay on The Sound Of Music, heard by someone somewhere around the world every single day.
A small caveat with the animated dubbing: a lot of times, it's not that the actor voicing a character can't sing well, it's that s/he doesn't sound LIKE THE CHARACTER when singing. Many times, a person's singing voice is quite different from his speaking voice, and hearing a difference in a single character can be jarring. Now, your Lion King example also has some flaws, as Jeremy Irons DID try to record for the song, but had problems with his voice part way through, which is why Jim Cummings was brought in to record the song instead (fun fact: he was also the singing voice of Rasputin in Anastasia, a non-Disney property). While it's nice to have someone who can sing and speak a role (and really, should be necessary for live-action), it should be a non-issue with animated films, so long as BOTH performers are given the proper credit for their contributions.
Kind of like the difference twixt Gomer Pyle and Jim Nabors.
The first time I noticed a movie dubbing was Troy Bolton in High School Musical!
Nothing Nothing Really? I don't think I ever fully realized he was dubbed!
Morgan Gobin Zac Efron is only dubbed in the first. After he was in Hairspray and didn't get dubbed, Disney decided not to dub him for the next 2.
I feel so bad for Drew Seeley he’s sang so many songs and dubbed so many singing roles and barely get recognition for it. I never knew it was dubbed until I heard his voice on another soundtrack and realized he hadn’t been credited for his part.
It was only in the first movie and it was the singing voice.
@@morgangobin6550 it’s really obvious in Breaking Free. First part when Troy is nervous, it’s Zac, but when he gets confident and the strong instrumentation kicks in, it’s Drew. They don’t sound alike at all lol.
Good grief. Didn’t expected this to turn into preaching
It's very simple just hire people who can sing. Is it that hard? If you're doing a movie of a broadway musical what's the harm in bringing in the actor who portrayed them on broadway. Yes, it does take some time to adjust from stage to screen, but it's not a hard task.
The problem is that the studios making this movie want popular actors who can assure them people will go and buy tickets, so they sacrifice the quality of their voices. producers only care about how much money a movie can make, so they choose who they think is the most popular, this is why social media numbers are becoming a big part of the casting process. the amount of followers certain actors have is important. so this has nothing to do with actors adjusting from stage to screen, sadly.
ElenaParadoxP Yeah, you're right. Unfortunately.
They did keep most of the original Broadway cast for the movie version of Rent
well in some instances it wouldn't work to have the original Broadway actors due to time. they did that in rent, but it had been so long that none of the actors looked like 20 year olds
aj star You right as hell tho... :/
I’m glad Julie Andrew’s got to be the lead in the Sound of Music.
She is a wonderful “Triple Threat”. Meaning that she can act, sing and dance!
We need more triple threats these days....
But... I like Donny Osmond singing I'll Make a Man Out of You
Shhh. Don't tell anyone. But without the mildly racist context………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………I do too.
Musical Theatre Mash This reply made my whole week
I liked Donny as well but since I've seen Jackie Chan's Mandarin Chinese version of the song on a Mulan special feature I wonder if Disney could've got him to do an English language version of this song instead of Donny. It may surprise some people but Jackie is a really great singer along with the rest of his talents & skills. He's a true renaissance man.
Emma Watson was such an awful choice for Beauty and the Beast!!! Disney could have cast an unknown with a beautiful singing voice and the movie would have done just as well because it's Beauty and the Beast! I think Disney needs to cast their movies the same way they cast Moana...they're definitely headed in the right direction with that one.
Bennie Fontana, I completely agree. And Emma Watson didn't even fit the roll well. I would have been much happier with a different singer/actor. I think someone more like Anne Hathaway would be amazing as a character like Belle.
Bennie Fontana Emma Watson did great and so did the movie that's earned over $750m dollars
Bennie Fontana yeah! Why can't we have more Auli'i Cravalios
Othelie Moor true but he put enough emotion and charisma into his voice that it doesn't really matter how technically good he was. Watch the Nostalgia Critic's video on dubbing, he talks about both The Rock and Emma Watson.
Well, she did look the part. right? I agree with you. I would rather see an unknown or relatively unknown who can really sing then a "famous" actor who someone has been autotuned to oblivion and back.
I think its odd that people are saying Emma Stone can't sing, wasn't she a real musical theatre kid growing up? She was Sally Bowles in Cabaret for a little, she did lots of youth theatre, she took voice lessons for several years! I honestly didn't think she waa bad I thought she did really well but maybe that's just me I guess...
Yeah, I saw her in _Cabaret_ with Alan Cumming and she was excellent!
The movie version of Mamma Mia was crying out for dubbing of almost every voice.
The dad's could not sing :(
I can’t believe they cast actual Broadway actress Christine Baranski alongside so many actors who can’t hold a single note
I don't think they were SUPPOSED to be great, just good old fashioned good.
@@kurtsnyder4752 That's a fair comment, but unfortunately a significant number of the cast couldn't even reach that description.
As a non-white person, I think that although dubbing non-white characters with white voices isn't exactly a good thing, actual onscreen whitewashing is a much bigger problem. West Side Story, for example- you mentioned that Natalie Wood is playing a puerto rican, but not that some of the Sharks are played by white actors, and all of them, white or not, are caked in one shade of brown makeup (Rita Moreno has discussed how she wasn't happy about this, and that she feels it ignores the variety of Latinx skin tones). Honestly, dubbing isn't a problem unless you aren't being mindful with your casting- racism isn't an issue inherent with dubbing, it's a problem with casting directors and the racist-as-hell studio system.
evva Preach, being latina that is my biggest gripe about wss, I still love it but I hate the whitewashing asoect of it, even in the dubbing!! the accent in marias singing voice... 😫😫😫 wonderfull movie, racist hollywood behind it
It's hard to watch because the story, dancing, and technical direction are so good, but the casting is uncomfortable. I'm usually able to look past it. Thankfully, it's a pretty commonly performed show, so it's not difficult to find a good production with good casting and enjoy it without reservation. (Though unfortunately some productions still cast white people as the Sharks... yeesh. Another issue for another discussion.)
Much agreed, evva. The issue is that with voice acting, it's gets problematic. The art of voice acting is SO different from onscreen acting, that obviously you better be casting someone of the right ethnicity when necessary, BUT voice acting...is just that. VOICE acting. It's literally ALL about the voice, so there's a whole lot of grey area there. I do believe however, that finding someone of the appropriate ethnicity even in voice acting should be a priority now. Even Judy Kuhn was told that she'd do the whole role of Pocahontas if they didn't find an actual Native American to speak the role on their search, which makes that story VERY odd. Judy was the first cast, and she's the singing voice. Never in the history of animated musicals, or ANY movie musical at all, can I think of another instance where the singing voice was cast first, it's always the speaking voice first.
I'm just here to say "yes" and "uh huh" and "thank you." 😊
Oh I'm not surprised, I've known that fun piece of info for a long time. It's just still very unusual in general that a singing voice is cast first. Judy has said in interviews herself that she also know's that it's unusual.
I mean I thought Emma Stone's performance was good, her voice wasn't strong but she gave an powerful emotionally distinctive performance. Which is honestly kind of in the vein of old broadway with stars like Elaine Stritch, Carol Channing, and such, who didn't have the best voices but really sold their songs with their presence and performance! Same with Anne Hathaway, I think it depends on how good they are at giving an emotional performance and director's and actor's preference. If they can't sing or act the part then they should be dubbed, but if their voice adds to the song emotionally, or gives it some kind of power then I'm all for a kind of bad or un-special voice singing in a movie!
Although I am also all for casting people who are fantastic at singing and acting especially when there is no shortage of them out there!
This was my opinion of the Rock in Moana as well.
No, he wasn't the best singer, but it worked for the song and his part, so I enjoyed it; as opposed to Emma Watson in BatB who... I didn't mind as much as some, like she was *fine*, but I felt like handicapped the rest of the cast. Everyone was excellent but her, and they all toned down to seem less overwhelmingly better, which is a bit of a shame. Like, I half think it was a stylistic choice (weirdly to make it seem less like the musical more than the original movie) that afterwards allowed them to hire a less-good singer, but I kinda wish they hadn't made it. *Everyone* else was so good, it would've been so good to hear them just go for it instead of talk-singing all the time.
The problem was not Emma Stone, entierly.
The movie had NO memorable songs or plot for that matter.
She did the best with what they gave her, I agree, but they gave her nothing.
Actually yes there are ( a shortage that is).
Talent is a word thrown around too loosely these days.
The "talent" you need for "America's Got Talent" will not hold up under the drudge of a four-month shooting schedule of a modern movie. The ability to hold an audience on stage does not translate to fifteen seconds of a scene shot over three days.
I agree
I understand not liking emma watson's overproduced autotuned voice but, was emma stone really that bad? I actually loved her voice, It wasn't broadway worthy but it was totally fit for a hollywood movie
12345 Nltsaaegcj I didn't mind Emma Stone's voice, but I think I would have liked the songs better if someone who could really sing sang them.
Ryan Gosling's voice on the other hand...
Emily Ann gotta agree with you on that, gosh now I only want to see lalaland adapted to the stage to see someone belt the hell out of audition
12345 Nltsaaegcj Yes! Like I JUST watched The Last Five Years with Anna Kendrick and I think she would have been great singing Audition. I almost fell asleep during that song, but I think I would have really felt all the feelings if it was sung better. And she could bring the sass in A Lovely Night (my favourite song) like Emma Stone, but elevate it with her song and dance talents.
Honestly, it just should have been Anna and Jeremy Jordan again. And then since the stars have better voices and range, better songs could have been written for them. Win-win.
problem was in the production and not Emma watsons voice :-/ she can actually sing
I just finally saw La La Land last night and I honestly didn't think Emma Stone's singing was that bad. Maybe not the strongest, but she sounded pretty enough. Ryan Gosling was worse. That said, I agree with the rest of this video. I firmly believe Aaron Tveit should play Fiyero in the upcoming Wicked movie. He's played the role on Broadway before, and he still looks 25 (despite actually being 33). Cast Lea Michelle as Elphaba (because, let's be honest with ourselves, that makes the most sense) and it'll work out perfectly.
Kaija Schmauss totally agree, I heard rumours about nicole shretzinger(fucking mispelled it sorry) being elphaba in the wicked movie, I honetly LOVE nicole she is fuckin fantastic buuuut I think she may be a bit too old for the part
Kaija Schmauss I don't think Lea Michele is a good fit for Elphaba, frankly. I think Elphaba's voice should be somewhat harsh and piercing. Lea Michele's voice is too pretty. It'd be like casting a young Barbra as Elphaba, and that just wouldn't fit. I'd be in favor of finding an unknown for that role and having stars be cast in other roles. I think Anna Kendrick would make a pretty good Glinda.
1234 Nltsaaegcj Oh man. Yeah, no. Nicole would be completely the wrong fit. She's a great singer, but she doesn't exactly look 20-something.
MC Wyman I see your point. I just feel like she sounds so much like a young Idina Menzel that she seems like the most obvious choice to me. I would love to see Anna Kendrick in the role though. She was amazing in The Last 5 Years. I'd be 100% up for an unkown in the role too. As long as they have the range to pull off the incredibly difficult vocals of the show, I'm happy.
MC Wyman Anna Kendrick doesnt have that high soprano voice that Glinda has though :/
Ah the age of musicals. Unfortunately, you might have a bit of short sightedness due to your relative age. For example...My Fair Lady. It was a well known fact that Audrey Hepburn couldn't sing. She was known as a fabulous dancer with those enormous eyes and waifish looks. As a perpetual waif, she was perfect. BIG HINT HERE. We all knew about the dubbing!! We knew that she couldn't sing, there was this big controversy about why she was cast and not Julie Andrews. But then...neither could Rex Harrison sing. In fact, I believe that it was he who first popularized the "spoken song". As I was a teen...and wildly in love with musicals...I remember it quite clearly. I also remember following quite closely the costuming saga. Cecil Beaton's designs were anxiously awaited and featured in Look magazine at the time. So your assertion that Hepburn would have won if she had sang is in error...because she didn't have a singing voice. Julie Andrews got it for her performance. Oh my stars, that was a GREAT year for musicals!
Reynolds' dubbing came at a time when her vocal talents were unknown. Having been cast as an actress (at 18, a definite unknown quantity) and not as a voice talent, it comes as no surprise because she DIDN'T show high powered talent then. The "young talent" of the day was in flux. Judy Garland had aged out of teen roles, Jane Withers had gone into comedy, and Shirley Temple had "retired". Reynolds fit the bill, and was hired as a pretty face that fit the role. It wasn't until "Tammy and the Bachelor" that we found out that she had a voice that could carry a musical...5 years later. As you well know, musical productions are extremely expensive to produce, so it's no surprise that dubbing was standard at the time. Also, because of the expense, there was a dearth of musical films after the '60's.
As for animation voices, your point of "whitewashing" is simply, IMO, wrong. The immortal June Foray has voiced boys, girls, animals, dolls, what-have-you. Her voice will long outlive any of us! That she voiced an old Asian lady speaks to her talent, not to whitewashing. Given the cast of that production, I'm surprised that you tried so hard to pick Ms. Foray for such a slur. I might have much quicker picked Eddie Murphy for "not being ethnically proper." Given the racial hated in Asia for non Asians, I wonder who voiced Mu Shu in the dubbing there?
After all this, the short version is...dubbing is not a bad thing. People are not stupid, they know when it is and is not being used, especially when a famous name's voice is concerned. On this point I agree....voice over actors need to be credited.
@@steveb1164 Only because that's what the studios did. I saw a documentary about that movie and some others and they had footage with Audrey's real singing and she was , maybe not GREAT, but right in line with the character; sweet and pretty. They SHOULD have left that in, (raspberry)(left arm bent fingers extended and waving, pinky at 90 degree angle to rest)Jodi Tov!
Eyetallyan gesture which if given at da Godfadder getzcha da kiss o' death.
As a professional singer myself, Audrey's voice is pretty but just isn't strong enough to carry the role of Eliza. Julie had the voice but she was passed over for Audrey because she had a name in film and Julie had never done film. Audrey truly did a great job, but I personally prefer Julie's Eliza especially since she originated the role. Even though both movies did very well and Julie and Andrey we're good friends, I love how it worked out for Julie in the end with getting Mary Poppins. Disney didn't care she was a nobody and because he picked her, Julie got her first Oscar and became a huge film star from her first film ever. Not to mention that Mary Poppins crushed My Fair Lady at the box office and is still more popular to this day. It does makes you wonder though if things would have turned out better for the movie and Audrey if Audrey had been allowed to use her own voice. Who knows?
Audrey- acting, charming, stunning, dancing, charismatic, & capable of singing in character like in Breakfast at Tiffany’s 💎
Julie can sing & act, but gives me no charm & no charisma. 📉 but props for showing her boobs 👀 in a movie 🍿
My issue with My Fair Lady isn't that Audrey Hepburn couldn't sing; it's that neither she nor Marnie Nixon were convincing Cockneys. When that's the McGuffin that's supposed to drive the plot!
You had me at first, but lost me when you moved to animation. As someone intimately familiar with that industry, voice acting is a bit of a different world, much like theatrical casting is different from film. As long as they're not paying a racial stereotype, voice actors flow from character to character without much regard for race, and it goes both ways, racially, white or not. It's a small community that's difficult to break into. I understand your point regarding Mulan, but it's really about the sound. They tried with Moana, but for tv where they don't have that kind of budget to go hunting, it's gonna depend on whether there's a racially appropriate actor with the talent available in that small community, or if they even have the budget to add another cast member (since most show's actors play multiple parts anyway).
He lost me when he moved on to fake racism. Looking for racism where there isn't any.
@@Bigbadwhitecracker me too. Shame, it was really interesting up until that point
I know Emmy Rossum’s performance is super polarizing, but I think she would have made the best possible Belle out of anyone in Hollywood today.
Mamma Mia was ruined by a cast that was 20 years too old and who couldn't sing. I'd rather have a cast of unknowns who are more age appropriate and who can legitimately sign. Lord knows there are enough starving artists in Hollywood and hanging around Broadway.
The thing is, casual moviegoers don't go to the movies to support starving artists.
The problem is the people who bankroll the film are not going to take the financial risk of casting unknowns. It's "show *_business_*".
Hey! Don't ever make fun of Mamma Mia!!!
AxelQC daw mamma Mia 2. Horrible acting, singing (except 5 minutes of Cher). Total waste
@@stephaniemitchellmitchell746 Hahahahahahaha lol. Mamma Mia 2 was sooooo much better than MM1 in terms of singing, acting and the songs were better imo
Boy, this really gets off-track. It starts as a discussion about dubbing, but ends up a discussion about racism. Also, there is some misinformation. Marni Nixon is by no means the most prolific dubber in movie musicals. There were many other dubbers who worked much more than she did. Look up Martha Mears, for example.
Also, dubbing did not increase after the studio system was broken up. It was extremely common all during the 1930s and 1940s.
One more thing that could’ve been mentioned is the fact that dubbing is the rule, not the exception, in Bollywood movies. People in India prefer to hear the voices of their favorite singers, rather than the voices of the people onscreen. So it’s not unusual to meld the two. Here is my clip of the many other dubbers who have had an impact in American movie musicals.
th-cam.com/video/_q1W7x6UfeM/w-d-xo.html
Best comment here! I completely agree that this video’s topic went off track. Pun intended.
I had the pleasure of singing for Marni as a young singer. She was lovely!
I had never heard that interview with Jim Cummings re The Lion King. I'd always heard that Irons threw his voice out halfway through, and Cummings stepped in to finish Be Prepared. On another note, my favorite example of voice actor actually singing in a Disney film is Tom Hulce as Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Is he a great singer? No. Does his singing voice capture the emotion of that character? Absolutely.
Yes, not casting accurate races in the 50s and 60s was most likely because of an unwillingness to look for them, and or want to pay black, or hispanic singers. However, with Disney, in the 90s it could be that B.D Wong (Who I adore) had the talking voice they liked, but he has a deeper voice than Donny Osmond, and perhaps they wanted the higher pitch for the singing? Obviously they weren't unwilling to cast Asians for the movie i.e. B.D Wong (Li Shang, talking) Lea Salonga (Mulan, singing) Ming-Na Wen (Mulan, talking) Freda Fo Shen (Fa Li) James Hong (Chi Fu) Soon-Tek Oh (Fa Zhou) James Shigeta (General Li) George Tekei (First Ancestor) Pat Morita (The emporer) Gedde Watanabe (Ling), these are the main voices of the movie. How was Disney rascist in casting the movie? I mean, if not casting every role racially accurate, then is Hamilton rascist?
It may have not been inherently racist but they still took an oportunity for an asian actor to showcase his talent and gave it to a white actor, also hamilton's racebending is completely justified to further the themes of the story, the racebending on hollywood movies has no meaning behind it whatsoever
12345 Nltsaaegcj
If there's no meaning, doesn't that make it inherently non-racist?
So the other 9 (that I mentioned, there were several more as extras) don't count because they wanted casted a voice they thought fit better? If this was live action I'd agree with you, so they weren't (even if they had tried) sending a very well done rascist message if no one can see the voice.
How is Hamilton different? Is it because Miranda intentionaly did not cast any white actors for lead roles other than the villian? I love Hamilton, I know the music by heart, and I love the entire cast too. Having a literal 'whites need not apply' casting decision seems quite rascist.
Do you simply mean "Changing historical figures to anything but white' racebending is okay, and "Using different actors who have singing voices we prefer" "racebending is not okay?
Please back up your argument and tell how, by yours and Tommy's definition (not mine by the way I don't mind the different races because it doesn't change the story) how that doesn't apply to Hamilton.
Hello!
Good points, all around. Let me take a stab at some of this.
First - you're totally right about the diverse casting of Mulan. For me, that makes the FEW times they picked a white actor over an Asian actor even just a little more offensive. It's like, "Oh! Oh Disney! You tried so hard and you were SO CLOSE!"
But to the Hamilton point (a point that is coming up a lot in these comments): first off - there are white people in Hamilton. Not a majority, but there are. Just like how for DECADES there were POC in other broadway musicals. Not a majority, but there were. Hamilton is EXPLICITLY commenting on this race dynamic. It's a part of the thesis of the show.
Mulan, on the other hand, does not have some underlying commentary that involves white people playing Chinese people. Disney is not trying to make some deep, metaphorical point when they cast Osmond as Shang. That's the difference.
Also, in many ways, Lin-Manuel Miranda's choice to cast Hamilton that way is in direct response to choices exactly like the one Disney made with Osmond.
I really think the question is this: did Disney audition actual Asian actors for the singing voice of Shang? I might be jumping to conclusions…but I really doubt it.
I guess I misunderstood your point in the video. I do not find what Lin Manuel Miranda did necessarrily rascist, I think race is an incredibly important part of our world and history. I think one of the most amazing things about theater is that so many stories can be told where the color of the actors doesn't change the story, you can have a white actor and an Asian actor playing brothers and, in the theater especially I won't doubt it for a second.
That being said there are shows that race is definitely an important part of the story, for example, The Color Purple just wouldn't work with white people. or even Asian people playing the roles. One of the (many) things I love about Hamilton is that it doesn't matter (to me at least) the color of the people playing the roles, anyone from any color around the globe could play Burr and his dialogue would still be just as powerful.
That being said, with the overly P.C culture I need to do a little research for myself when rascism, or sexism is called. I appreciate your channel, and this video was really interesting and entertaining. Because even though I know I'm probably going to disagree with your politics I love your channel and your videos.
I also think, because of your comment I understand what you were saying in the video a little more clearly.
I wish we could’ve had B.D. Wong sing “I’ll Make a Man Out of You”!
I love Donny Osmond's version, but I wish the same after learning of Wong's theatre background. Wong could sing it for the final film, and Osmond's song would be an excellent cover, if we lived in an alternate universe.
I say if you're looking for a certain "look" cast someone with that look, (who can act) if they can't sing dub them. Give the actual singer all the credit they deserve. I don't think it's wrong if you change races with the singer because it's a voice.
I think dubbing is fine, as long as it's needed. If the actor can already sing then I see no point to dub them!
Or if doing alot of "exercise" activity, moving around more than merely dancing, Also can help if the music, say a band is playing at the same time, to let the vocals be heard.
In the 1951 Show Boat Ava Gardner was dubbed and actually her very own recording was very nice.
I seriously thought it's said Dabbing in Movie Musicals
…well I know what my next video is going to be about!
I don't get why do you say that's racist?
Maybe I'm used to Spanish dubbing, but i don't see any relation between the original actor and the dubbing actor. I mean, not every person can make a good dub, and that's why dubbing actors exists. You have to find a voice that fits the character in personality, NOT in their appearance.
Seriously, I don't get what your point was at the end. Weren't you talking about dubbing musicals again?
Edmundo Sanz-Daza He was focusing in what he thinks are the main priblems with dubbing
a) taking away the voice from an actor
b) taking away a voice from a character and giving it a racist accent
I undestand that in spanish dubs (or any other dubs) Is not that much of a problem but this racism problem lies on mainly english spoken performances (I mean they are movies from the US one of the countries that struggles the most with racism while being one of the most racially diverse ones) But his points do tie in I mean that's why WSS and the King and I are so controversial as good as they are, they jsut weren't sensitive towards the peopke they were trying to portray, in spanish dubs It's not that much of a problem since we don't get to hear the latino accents in the performances and when there are accents from other races we don't find them racist since they either a) tone down the performance or b) we don't really care about stereotypes when they aren't about us
@Edo Sanz: Excellent point. I was going to say the same thing. It's about sound, NOT appearance. This guy's comment show just how hypersensitive his generation is about race. Everybody needs to get over it. I'm surprised he didn't say dubbing for animals is animism, too! LOL It's NOT about appearance.
lcowles were not hypersensitive to race. We simply acknowledge that its happening. People back then did not acknowledge that kind of thing even though they knew it was strange. There’s only one puerto rican in West Side Story thats Rita Moreno. The rest of them are painted with spray tans. Thats a reality of the time doesn’t mean its not racist.
@@L1623VP "Get over it" -- Ah, the ever-helpful rejoinder when we discuss treating people with respect. Hollywood shapes the nation's, and even the world's, perceptions of groups. A perfect example: the popular view of Native Americans as the "bad guys" or them all living in tipis and wearing warbonnets. Hollywood has historically stuck to racist stereotypes for actors of color, or white actors playing characters of color. That effectively erases those groups of people. There is no shortage of appropriate, talented performers to play these roles, so it's time to stop pretending that the system has been based on merit.
@@Tracymmo I live in the American south and I have never heard anyone in real life have that perception (not even my grandparents). I'm sure it happens, but I haven't encountered it. I don't think it's all that widespread.
As an old movie buff, I applaud your excellent work on this. Great topic that isn’t often discussed these days. And I had NO idea that veteran voice actors Marni Nixon and June Foray were in Mulan. And DONNY OSMOND? WTF? I have watched Mulan at least 2 dozen times with my kids and never knew that was him. 😱
I think that dubbing is fine if all parties agree ahead of time and are compensated fairly. Of course, the better alternative is to cast proven singers, but that's just a pipe dream a lot of the time.
I can't believe you turned this into something ray-cist.
Racism is like the concept of home: it can be wherever you make the active choice to find it for yourself.
At 5:33 I had to smile. I think you said "exasterbated" rather than "exacerbated by the television." Oh don't worry, I think you are absolutely fascinating in your analysis and the range of your knowledge, and the technical skill with which these postings are put together. New viewer here, ardent Fan but what was on your mind at that moment?
such an interesting discussion! I remember being truly devastated when I found out that Natalie Wood and Richard Beymer did not themselves sing in West Side Story. I too am very happy that there are movie musicals being made but I cannot stand some of the singing!! That's why I am so wary of the new Wicked movie
I'm pretty sure Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling were casted because the director didn't want big broadway actors, they wanted people with decent voices that sounded nice, not amazing, not show stopping, just nice. It also kinda fit the story, they're average people so they'd have average voices. It makes sense.
I think that acting should be above signing in importants so if a singer isnt very good but has character... Thats great!
As far as the whole animation thing goes I think in most situations it’s very flexible I mean i don’t think they disliked BD Wongs Voice or anything but I think for the character they preferred Donnys voice and I have no problem with that. It’s all about portraying one character. In that situation its not discriminatory it’s simply about getting a job done. I find that point to only be a highly whiny and dramaticized assumption
We could cast those amazing broadway voices that also act circles around most of hollywood... hmmmmmm hmmmm
Problem is, very few of them are particularly competent actors, either. It's just that the public (and even much of the industry itself) can no longer tell the difference. Being a dancer who can barely carry a tune in a bucket with non-existent technique while reciting lines "in character" is thought to constitute being a consummate triple-threat these days.
Stage acting & screen acting are different disciplines, though, arguably. This is a problem primary for the director to handle, but it would help to have an actor familiar with acting on the silver screen.
Just because you can sing doesn't mean you can act. Or fit the roll. Or are handsome enough. It just means you can sing.
I think the animated world is a whole different situation. One of the great things about voice acting and its actors is the magic they have to sound so different and unlike themselves. I don't see any problem of a white woman voicing an asian character if it is the best person for the job. How do you know older asian women even auditioned for the role and if they could pull off the difficulty of voice acting? And I know I could get a lot of slack for this, but when it comes to BD Wong, maybe he just couldn't handle the song? Yes he is a talented actor, but Disney has always had high standards when it comes to music in their movies. If they were really racist, i don't think they would've made all of these movies in the first place. We would just have dozens more Cinderellas and Frozens. I just can't stand calling a person or company racist if no real research has been done to back up the statement with solid evidence.
I can't believe that there was not even one qualified Asian performer in film and theater to take that role. Check out the documentary "The Slanted Screen."
This has been a running argument for literally TWO DECADES, about Hank Azaria voicing Apu, the Quickie Mart owner on "Family Guy", but it's only the last YEAR anyone got riled up about it. I'll tell you what ticked me off lately: The film version of "Crazy Rich Asians" had almost NO Asians in the production crew. I watched the credits at the end, which I usually find pointless and a necessary evil so everyone gets credit where it's due (even the CATERING COMPANY and the DRIVERS, for cripes-sake! Who cares!), except on Marvel flicks for the teasers. But I DID on "Asians" because I was just curious exactly how MANY Asians were behind the scenes, and there were, sadly, almost NONE!
Wow! Who woulda thought finding singing actors for SINGING ROLES was a solution?! SHOCKER!
A dubbed voice in an animated film is really its own issue, and it transcends race. To borrow a line from "My Favorite Year": "In the beginning was the word and the word was FUNNY!" Sometimes casting is ethnically irrelevant: the Witch of the Waste in the English version of Studio Ghibli's "Howl's Moving Castle" was done by Lauren Bacall because the story happened on a non-existent fantasy world and she was PERFECT! You might as well criticize visual effects as being too realistic. Both movies and live theater require that famous "suspension of disbelief" to allow anyone to enjoy any performance at all!
Such an interesting point! The issue of dubbing has its own variants here in Spain (and I reckon in several other non-English speaking countries). Up to the sixties or so, some movie musicals were completely dubbed (The sound of music, My fair lady) and in some others, the dialogue would be dubbed but not the songs (The Wizard of Oz, Singin' in the rain). At some point, the second option prevailed and songs in films stopped being dubbed, so when a song comes, subtitles appear. That is, unless it's an animated film or if its "family oriented", then the songs are still dubbed. (Then there's the horrible case of Phantom of the opera, but that seems to be a decision made under litres and litres of alcohol).
That has created several problems in the las few years with Disney's live action remakes, especially with Beauty and the beast. Since it's a movie that draws so much in nostalgia, they HAD to dub the songs so the audience would recongise the lyrics thew knew from the original movie. But since songs haven' been dubbed in live-action musicals for a long time, the art of song voiceover is not as perfected as it used to be (and the fact of them using "celebrity voices" instead of expert dubbing actors doesn't help either).
Long story short... You get the cringy dubbing of the new Beauty and the beast, which damages even more the already controversial dubbing industry.
The issue that I TOTALLY didn't think about while making this video that I now find fascinating is the journey a Hollywood-produced movie takes in non-english dubs. Obviously I don't know nearly enough about it, but the more I look into it the more nuanced and interesting it sounds.
WOWSER! Superb show with great editing. Then there's the charm of having an actor actually sing on their own like Ray Bolger singing Once Upon A Time. Fantastic performance.
One of the weirdest examples of dubbing occurred In She's Working Her Way Through College (1952), where he did all his own singing (He did have a fine singing voice.) except for one song. Hal Derwin, who dubbed singing voices for many film performers, did the dubbed voice. It was easy to tell the difference between the two voices. I guess the studio thought people would never notice.
Just out of curiosity, and because I'm too lazy to look it up, _who are you talking about?_
I think dubbing for singing could be okay but they have to get credit
Fascinating. Now do one where dubbed actors got to sing for themselves. Like Audrey Hepburn doing Moon River in Breakfast at Tiffany's and Natalie Wood in Inside Daisy Clover.
Audrey gave Heart ♥ & Longing 🎶to “Moon River” No Dubber or Professional Singer could have done That 😶
there could be many reasons why the dubbing in mulan was done and none of them had to do with race. it just begins with the fact that B. D. Wong may have had the wrong type of singing voice. for you to say that is was done because of race is very disingenuous of you to do.
This episode is soooo good and direct.
So how does it grab you to watch The Hollow Crown and see the Duke of York in Henry V played [very well] by a black man?
First video you posted while I'm subscribed 😀
Me too! I found this channel on Friday (I think?) and I've been binging on and off since. It's nice to see something in my Subscription box.
Wonderful video Tommy! One of the best as of late
Isn't acting all about portraying someone you are not?
Ooh -- my point exactly, made nine months before I made it. I wasted my evening.
This is crazy considering Emma got her big break on a singing competition show.
I think you're not right on the animated videos. I'm not sure what the problem really is when the character is fictional and animated. When you cast actors of different races to their parts in live action, and disguise them as different races then it becomes problematic. But Disney did nothing wrong here.
Exactly- it's all a lie- most little boys in cartoons are voiced by grown women. People voice creatures, non-humans.....
Huh, I refound this video and wanted to make this comment, turns out 2 years ago me already did!
My first new upload since subscribing and what a good decision that proved to be. Keep em coming :)
Why wouldn't it be common sense to cast someone who can sing to voice a part? Like damn it why is this so hard?
RIGHT?!? Ugh.
Wished they dubbed Russel Crowe in Les Mis
Then our ears wouldn't have bled!
Found your channel recently and have torn through it. Love your content.
Watching your videos make me smile, thank you for all you do 😀
Daww. Thank YOU for watching.
I don't know whether the rules apply in animated movies. Although I agree that B.D. Wong should've had sung his parts in Mulan, but we arrive at the quandary that Lea Salonga, who is Asian, sang Mulan's part. She also sang Jasmine's part in Aladdin. On those aspects, Disney got it right. It would come off as cherry-picking if you only point out the parts where there's apparent "white-washing" but not on the parts where the dubber's race and the animated character are congruent. So I'm not really sure whether that critique will be logically consistent.
This was a really good video! I needed to watch something like this today.
Speaking of vocal talent, its the reason I'm so excited for the Wicked movie!
Wait, but Debbie did sing in singing in the rain
I watched a video on dubbing & Debbie Reynolds did sing most of the songs- the only dubbing I think was the part where she was dubbing for another actress.
Just allow one of the many Broadway Stars play their roles in the damn films. Julie Andrews was Guinevere in "Camelot" on Broadway and Vanessa Redgrave was cast in the film. Julie Andrews played Eliza Doolittle in "My Fair Lady" on Broadway. Audrey Hepburn was cast in the film. The studios didn't think Julie Andrews had enough "NAME RECOGNITION". Yet, who won the OSCAR in 1965? Not Audrey Hepburn in "my Fair Lady". It was Julie Andrews as "Mary Poppins"! If a role requires singing, cast an actor who can sing. As far as Animation is concerned. There was a time when the profession of "Voice Acting" was a REAL Profession. Very rarely did one hear an on screen or onstage actor voicing a character, commercial, etc. I Loved those Actors. Now, well known actors are scooping up all of the jobs from Voice Actors, who are specially talented and often trained in VOICE ACTING. Think Looney Toons and Mel Blanc.
I don't think Marni Nixon's dubbing cost Audrey Hepburn an Oscar nomination. It didn't hurt Dorothy Dandridge in CARMEN JONES or Deborah Kerr in THE KING AND I (another actress that Nixon dubbed), and it certainly didn't hurt Rita Moreno, who actually won for WEST SIDE STORY. I think the fact that Julie Andrews was unceremoniously passed over for Hepburn in the film version is what cost Audrey the nomination and what ultimately won Andrews the Oscar, which was a sentimental win. I don't think Nixon's non-singing was much of a factor. Let me put it this way: If MY FAIR LADY had been written directly for the screen (bypassing the whole Broadway run) and Hepburn had been cast and dubbed, I think she would have gotten an Oscar nod. It was the whole 'Julie fiasco' that muddied the waters.
Why was Debbie Reynolds dubbed??? That's so baffling. She's literally a singer. In Lion King, Matthew Broderick does the speaking voice of adult Simba - but not the singing - when he's also a Broadway singer. Baffling.
Let me just get my petty comment out of the way - the subject of your video isn't dubbing, it's ghost singing. All movies are dubbed to some extent or another. Dubbing is any sound that was not recorded synchronously in real time when a scene was filmed. That covers everything from the standard practice of pre-recording songs in musicals, to re-recording dialog by the actor later in a sound studio (also known as ADR or looping), to replacing the onscreen actors voice with another actor (like James Earl Jones doing the voice of Darth Vader), to localizing dialog into another language. And, yes, having the actor sing to someone else's pre-recorded voice is also a type of dubbing, but technically that specific practice is ghost singing. That's the topic you are addressing here, not the post-production practice of fixing dialog mistakes in the sound studio.
That aside - I Iove your videos and have shared them with many other people.
@5:32 - “exasterbated”? That one cracked me up. I guess he couldn’t wait to go off and “rub one out.”
New subscriber here, and I am loving the channel. I could not agree more with the article. I've been telling people this for years. There are far too many talented people out there who could use the work, and the product would be so much better!
I would argue that "Audition" from Lala Land brought many filmgoers to tears, not because it was perfect, but because it felt real...only a good actress can do that. Is Emma Stone a great singer? No. But she is an effective singer. On the other hand, Russell Crowe's voice was so awful it was distracting in Les Miserables.
Whitewashing is not only a problem in Hollywood. In The Netherlands Gloria Estefan will be played by a white girl in On Your Feet.
Like I can see why this is a problem, but can you name even one Dutch theatre actor who is from Cuban decent? I think the Netherlands' problem is that there just aren't many actors let alone actors from Cuban descent.
But then again ... we can’t say people of other ethnicities can’t play white characters ... can we? Say, all-black Shakespeare?
I mean if it’s a question of talent, it’s another story.
This whole idea of people needing to BE the race of the voice they make is RIDICULOUS. Stop that. It's a cancel culture meme that has gone out of control. A black man voiced Homer Simpson here in Brazil for decades (he has passed away). So? No one cared. Stop this nonsense.
So glad you mentioned South Pacific heating the lieutenant sing in such a different register to his speaking voice was crazy
He's alive!
Aaron Tveit Voice: "I'm alive. I'm alive. I am so alive."
YOU ARE MY FAVORITE TH-camR!!!!!
YOU ARE MY FAVORITE COMMENTER!!!!!
Don't necessarily agree with everything you said on the video, mainly the second part where you talk about animation dubbing and racism, but still think the video is interesting and raised interesting points.
Lovin' your videos man! Keep it up. Love from New Zealand!
You have significantly simplified the production of early sound film - especially 'The Jazz Singer'. The Al Jolson scenes were absolutely shot live. He actually didn't have any lines (he was only supposed to sing). He added the lines himself knowing it was too expensive for Warner Bros to stop the recording process - which was on wax discs at the time.
…so…yes…I have significantly simplified the production of early sound film. And also I never said that Jolson was dubbed. Other singers in the movie were dubbed. I tried to make that clear in the video (I think it's the part that begins "to be clear here") but my apologies if that didn't come across.
La La Land for me I feel like they intended to make them sound like that. It kinda sounds realistic not perfectly hit the notes with perfectly vibrato and other perfectly vocal techniques. There're scene where they sang live and the rest were dubbed so if they want to have a perfect voice they can just tuning here and there or recording over and over until they get the perfect one. Unlike Beauty n the Beast when they sing you immediately know it's dubbed. The same with Les Mis' where they have these Broadway and West End talented cast but they didn't sing like they would usually sing in Theater but it worked so well.
I think you need to get a dictionary and look up the word "racist." When you overuse it and apply it to every situation, you dilute the meaning. Also, isn't it interesting you made such a huge point about B.D. Wong and at the end mentioned he played Linus in "You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown" but totally forgot that Linus is not Asian.
i realized your the only youtuber that ever mentioned aida. that is one of the best disney musicals. :D
There is plenty of racism in Hollywood without attacking voice dubbing singers. I do agree that they should get credited with their part in the production. Now, look at Broadway and "Hamilton" ... how is casting a non-white person in the role of an actual historical white character? While I think the show and performers are great, it seems to be OK in this case to change races, but you say the reverse is unacceptable.
Hello! I absolutely love your videos and I always especially enjoy your tony lead up videos (tony show of the week and guides to the tony's) and was wondering if you were planning on making them again this year? I was also wondering what your personal favorite show of the year was?
Not only did Betty Noyes dub Debbie Reynolds singing voice while she was singing for Lina Lamont (Jean Hagen), Debbie Reynolds SPEAKING voice was dubbed when she was dubbing the speaking voice for Lina Lamont - by Jean Hagen.
This was so needed!!! I love it!
Hence why casting for the upcoming WICKED movie is going to be SUPREMELY IMPORTANT!
The Donny fricken Osmond part killed me
Much as I enjoy Mash's videos, this one smacks of hypocrisy. Mash gets all self-righteous about actors playing characters who are members of a ethnic or racial group to which they do not belong. I notice it's alright for Black actors to play White characters. Brian Stokes Mitchell played Fred Graham/Petruchio (an actor with an English surname playing an Italian character). No problem. I've seen comments by people who want to "cancel" Olivier's film "Othello" but apparently the PC crowd doesn't mind Denzel Washington playing the Scot MacBeth. Add to this characters who are rewritten as Black (i.e., Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, a character of Scandinacian descent, rewritten as Black on Supergirl). How close is this going to be cut? Only a Thai can play the King of Siam, not a Japanese or Chinese actor. What about casting an actor whose people came from Russia as Eliza Doolittle?
Cast broadway actors in your movies Hollywood. There's a reason the best parts of the Les Mis movie involve Eponine and the revolutionary students.
franinconverse But while that might make a good movie, it won't count for anything if casual moviegoers don't go out of their way to see it. Musicals are far from the most popular movie genre right now, and unless big names are attached to the project, chances are people won't go and see them.
I have a feeling the reason musicals aren't popular is because they keep casting people who can't sing or dance in the major roles. And it's not like there isn't any crossover. There are major names in Hollywood who can also sing and dance. There's a reason Chicago won an Oscar.
Damn so many good little mermaid jokes went unjoked here (still a good vid!!)
As usual - wonderful, concise, educating and entertaining video!
Best channel I'm subbed to! ^_^
Dubbing is a pet peeve of mine. So many talented people who went unrecognized. (Don't even get me started on Marni Nixon (R.I.P))
When it comes to animation and dubbing, well, you'd be surprised how many voice actors can fool you with their identity. For example, the title character of Samurai Jack is voiced by a black man Phil Lamarr. Another example that comes to mind is Cree Summers whose resume will astound what she's pulled off. While I get where your coming from, I feel like voice acting is a whole other ball game and writing it off as racist seems a little too harsh.
I think the greatest showman did a decent job of crediting the singer who dubbed for the character of Jenny Lind. I know recognizing her was a big deal among the people I knew that saw the movie, but that may also be because she’s from a town very close to where I live so that excitement played into it as well.
Just found out about these videos, nice to see a channel like this focused on musical theater. Also thanks for ruining my life with that Donny Osmond reveal, had no idea. Subscribed
That's what you get for not staying through the credits.
I agree that neither Watson or Stone can really sing, but I actually thought Emma Stone was a much better choice for La La Land than Emma Watson was for BatB. They didn't shy away from their just-okay singing voices in La La Land, but in BatB they did so much crap to her voice in the studio that it seemed like THEY weren't happy with their own casting choice. Also, listening to Emma Watson's voice next to Audra Macdonald's was just painful. There are SO MANY actors in Hollywood and other places that can sing. Why are we not casting them?!
What is wrong with Marylyn Horne dubbing for Dorothy Dandridge? It's about music, nothing else. Finding racism under every rock is such a bore especially when it's applied to art.
Agree!
I was interested in this video due to the topic of movie musical dubbing, but I was soon saddened by the gratuitous easy target of calling things RACIST. If a black person was dubbed by a white actor, they call it racist. The very nature of ACTING is being someone you are not. So, it just gets so nauseating when this "woke" generation consistently pushes racist accusations upon those who were just doing a job the best way they knew how with the talent they had at the time. So, please spare me the unnecessary racist rhetoric where racism was not meant at all. Otherwise, we may have to call racist the black actors who voice white characters in animation. Do you see how nonsensical that is? Look, we're all human and we all need to be getting along together without the incessant drumbeat of pushing racism everywhere.
Have you ever heard a surprise vocalist in a modern movie musical? Like James Marsden in Hairspray. I am obsessed with his Corny Collins. Who knew Cyclops could sing. I don't know if he has broadway cred.