I think the bigger hint that it's not in Braavos isn't the lemon tree, it's actually the fields. A lemon tree can grow in Braavos in the gardens of the rich. However, there are no big fields.
@@Levacque I don't remember which book or chapter that she has the memory, but I do recall that she remembers running barefoot through a field of grass outside the house with the red door.
@@MattDelaney To be fair, to a child of 5-6 years old, a "field" you can run around barefoot in can just be a decent-sized yard with a lawn. Something like that could very plausibly be found inside the Sealord's palace complex.
Preston Jacob’s series “Daenerys and the page of lies” goes in great detail about the amount of inconsistencies there are in Danys memory, it’s actually astounding how many details are given in the first dany chapter that are later totally contradicted by other more reliable narrators
It’s what she DOESNT say about Braavos…The cold miserable sleet and rain and fog that would keep her inside for days. The taste of salt wind. The sound of the waves crashing lulling her to sleep. The loud roar of the Titan. Huge Ships passing by the Palace to be reviewed by the Sealord. The Palace Garden is an island with some trees and a Menagerie. The four main buildings of the Palace are on rock outcrops connected by covered bridge stairs. The Garden may also be reached by a bridge. If her stone house was on the small island she would remember the constant calls of the animals and birds. Their strong smells. The constant stream of servants caring for them and feeding them. As a small child she would be eager to watch and help. She would remember how good a warm fire felt at the end of cold misty days…
Well said. Dany may thinnk she lived in Braavos, but even living with the Sealord doesn't seem to explain everything. Dany sees the "stone house with the red door" as a time of simplicity and bliss, but that just isn't Braavos. Braavos is almost like New York, or any other modern metropolis: it is busy, loud, dynamic, with people always coming and going, with long voyages used to escape the bustling city life. And yet for Dany, we get none of this! Imagine a New Yorker who knows nothing about how big cities function, smell, and look. Its plainly rediculous.
@@runaravenscraft5314 First, thing that you need to understand is that George RR Martin each character understanding or point of view. So like a detective you have go back to a time before "Robert's Rebellion" that where you realize that George is telling us their going to four protagonists in the story of the song of Fire and Ice.
If you were hiding the last of the Targaryen Dynasty, you definitely want to keep them in an inside court facing window and not one facing outwards and one that others can look into .
To me it illustrates the Stark contrast ( pun intended) with Jon Snow.. How living with a huge name made her life hell and her wanting to be nameless and simple ( which is was Jon got and suffered in a different turn of events).
One problem with the point on the Iron Bank: The fact they were loaning Robert money gives them a powerful reason to want two Targaryeons in their back pocket. The whole threat of "the Iron Bank will have its due" is that if you fuck with them, they will support your enemies. Having the ability to at any time finance a Targaryen restoration would give them a massive amount of leverage over Robert.
02:04 Fun fact: in Denmark and Norway in 16th to 19th century there used to be an official called "Beggar King" who supervised activity of vagrants and beggars, ensuring that only those who had the proper permission could beg in city grounds. So essentially, Nordics used to actually TAX beggars for begging.
Beggars having to show ID proving they were legitimate beggars and Poor people being on an approved list of The Poor isn't confined to Scandinavia. Most countries had a version of it to prevent beggin as a profession.
I always thought, like Sansa and the unkiss, the red door may be distorted by her trauma. I like to think the door was a normal door splattered with blood, that she’d subliminally convinced herself was a red door to hide from a traumatic event. The lemon may also be a sigil. In ASOIAF it’s not uncommon for the children to romanticise their past trauma to escape
A field of lemons is the house sigil for House Dalt, which is a Dornish house too. Possible that House Dalt was involved in keeping her safe for a time, or that they were a rival faction in Dorne that didn't want to see them return to power.
When life gives you lemons, time to foment a conspiracy about the relevance of crimson portals and the proper climates of certain citrus trees. Otherwise we'd all realize she's just a stark using their ancient ice dragon riding genes to mind control fire dragons, and the Targaryens are actually the Others.
I'd always thought of Dany's longing for the lemon tree and the red door was a bit of a nod to Tolkien's "The Hobbit", where Bilbo often longs for the comfort of his "hobbit hole"...
I love how logical you are in analyzing the plot of the story. I never cared for the fan theories that suggested that the lemon tree pointed to Dany’s false memories, and even a different parentage. I like how Lady Gwyn compared Dany’s Red Door to Gatsby’s Green Light.
I agree, I always thought it was a pretty unnecessary theory. The red door is more of a symbolic thing meant to represent Dany's deepest desires. It doesn't really matter where it is to me, I still think it's probably just some courtyard in Braavos, possibly the Sealord's or some other nobles.
And I have two lemon trees growing inside my house in Alaska. My house is difficult to keep warm during the darkest, stormiest months, but supplementing the trees with growing lights keeps them happy enough. They are only a few years old, as such it is too early to tell if they will bear flowers.Still, they grow taller and thicker of truck each summer and have produced ever larger leaves . Braavos is doubtless very much warmer than here, but the humidity would be an issue. Lemons prefer more dry air with high drainage soil, and i'm not sure if they would tolerate sea air very well. Anyway, this is as always quite well reasoned and researched. Cheers
Tbf there are also all kinds of lemon trees, different species have different survival strength. Some need very warm and sunny weather, some others can handle rainy falls or cold winters. You can also cover them to protect them from very low temperatures. Here it's almost more of a question of "Would Dornish lemon tree be able to survive in Braavos ?" maybe if the garden and gardeners had made the conditions great for them. But there could also be other species of lemon tree that come from areas that are a bit chillier and that'd do fine in Braavos. I don't think the lemon tree should be the main focus or at least not the only one.
@@Libellulaire Very good info to add into the discussion, thank you. It also makes me wonder, could it have been a hybridised citrus? There are at least dozens, probably hundreds of very unique fruits that have originated through this process. I wonder if some orchard in Dorne has a pomello or tangelo tree?🤓 Edit: pomello are actually not hybrids
I had a house with a white door and a lemon tree outside, in a cold, foggy coastal area, where the air smells like salt and the humidity is so great the granite walls would sweat like the Wall. I can't go there anymore, much like her. I think it could grow, and if you could barely grow vegetables there, a lemon tree would be the ideal, vitamin C and all that. And the idea of lemon trees being outrageous could be propaganda by the rich, to hide that they have acces to vitamins the poor could never afford to keep alive. And you can keep fires in winter to warm trees, lots of places used to do it, and it adds to the idea of an opulent custom the powerful hide from the scurvy riddled peasants.
It's totally plausible that the lemon tree is in Braavos. Here in Buenos Aires it is very common to have a lemon tree on every other house, on the summer we have 30°c - 37°c but in the winter it gets as cold as 0° - 5° and the lemon trees survive just fine.
My mom has a 50 year old lemon tree that her mom planted. Once it grew a bit it was replanted into a half of a barrel. She lives in North East Croatia and we used to bring the tree inside every winter and it still bears fruit every year. Winters in Croatia used to be down to minus 30 degrees Celsius, not as harsh nowadays. The bedroom where we kept the lemon wasn't directly heated but it was adjacent to the living room that was, so it never went below freezing point, but wasn't much better than that on the coldest of days.
It is a testament and compliment to Emilia Clarke that, although many other attractive men and women have portrayed Targaryens in various flashback sequences or in HotD, she is the only one who really manages to attain that ethereal, other-worldly, mysterious and captivating beauty that Targaryens are supposed to have. And it's not just a matter of her physical appearance, but she has a presence and gravitas to most of her scenes that somehow... Makes everyone sharing scenes with her seem somehow dim and less vibrant than she herself. This is not meant as a slight to any other actors and actresses in the two shows, but Emilia Clarke is an incredible natural beauty and a talented actress who I hope has a long and storied career.
The kid who plays Aemond comes close, but I agree that he's not on her level. (He would be great for one of the Sons of Feanor if they're ever able to adapt the Silmarillion.)
I think you are right that her being in Dorne raises more questions, but doesn't Arianne Martell remember a little girl from her childhood with oddly coloured hair? Green or blue, I don't remember which. Shaving/dying hair is a pretty common Secret Targaryen trope in the books.
That doesn't sound familiar unless it was about Myrcella's hair being dyed brown to get her safely to Dorne, or some offhand allusion to some dye-haired merchant's child in the Water Gardens. Do you remember the quote at all?
Great research as always my guy. I bet it was at at the Sea Lords palace. Having citrus trees head been a flex for thousands of years. They are small enough to keep in containers and move or cover to avoid freezing.
Yep. Any knowledge of citrus history in Europe (or European climate in fake worlds) would point to courtyards as the place where they grow, like the orangeries at Versailles and all over England. I would guess that the only reason King's Landing doesn't have noteworthy citrus courts is a literary one - GRRM didn't want to muddy the waters regarding Dany's memories. Funnily enough, even Doran Martell uses courtyards to grow the more delicate blood oranges in the arid heat in Dorne whereas lemons are stable enough to grow in natural groves. It's crazy how much natural detail is in these books.
Well, definitely explore more to the story about the lemon tree and the red door because it makes sense hopefully in the final two books if it ever comes fingers crossed 🤞
It's never getting finished. All these hanging storylines that George has tantalised us with are just red herrings, cool ideas/ brainfarts that he wrote into the manuscript. They're going nowhere.
I think we'll get the whole picture from people like Arya listening at doorways in Braavos and Arianne Martel listening to her father's failed schemes. But Dany will never get to remember it properly.
"Dany, there are no lemon trees in Braavos. It was a Citron." "EVEYTHING I KNOW IS A LIE!" "Also, the door was more of a vermillion than red." "WHO EVEN AM I?!"
I love your videos robert ❤ they mean so much to me - been struggling with health issues and your breakdowns have taken me though surgeries, long recoveries and rest.
The problem with there just being a lemon tree in Braavos after the story telling us multiple times that a lemon tree in Braavos is preposterous is that it's not a satisfying payoff. The books are setting this up like it's going to be a big deal that leaves the reader saying "Wow, this completely changes things" , but the sealord of Braavos being involved isn't anything notable as a reveal.
The fandom set it up as a big thing, mostly because we’re starved for new content so we overanalyze everything. The books just hint at some discrepancy in Danny’s retelling, it doesn’t need a huge pay off.
@@lostvarius I never said it needed a "huge" payoff, but it needs something big enough to go with the repeated reminders that Braavos is not exactly flush with fruit trees. Having the explanation be that it was the former sealord's garden is a non-payoff because it just means she was exactly where she thought she was and everything was exactly as a first time very casual reader would be expected to assume long before the book repeatedly emphasized the general lack of lemon trees.
Honestly, I'd prefer her to have been the guest of the Sealord. To me "Danny's entire backstory is a lie" is far more unsatisfactory than "Danny was safe with Sealord A (who may re-enter the story) until he was deposed/replaced by Sealord B". Occam's razor doesn't have to apply in fiction, but it's unsatisfactory when it doesn't. Always supposing we ever get an explanation in Winds, which clearly isn't a given.
So Doran supported Viserys the whole time but left him as the Beggar King once the Sea Lord kicked them out? Dany remembers a humble house, not an extravagant garden, you’d think there’d be more than just a lemon tree in the Sealord’s exotic collection. Dany doesn’t remember any of Bravo’s near constant rain or fog or the deafening roar of the Titan multiple times a day. I my opinion it’s just too much of a stretch for the Lemon Tree just to be a symbol of Dorne, who have done nothing for Dany.
It wasn't the Martells helping Daenerys to hide in Dorne. It was the Daynes and the House with the Red Door is somewhere in the Red Mountains, probably High Hermitage. R+L=D and B+A=J.
@@st3pp3nw0lf86 Yeah I agree that real life is tragic. But a random person on the internet enjoying a brief escape from real life to enjoy a book is a bad thing?
Great vid as always IDG , i have long agreed with your views regarding Dany and the lemon tree / house with the red door from previous videos , livestreams and discussions etc. There are of course some curious elements at work , perhaps should have remembered and mentioned other aspects one living in Braavos would surely remember. But a lot of favorable evidence as well - the decor she remembers would line up with the Sealord's Palace , which would also have well tended gardens and trees and such structures that line up with her memories. Also being potentially politically valuable / formerly quite powerful family and could be used for important purposes at some point would make sense for Dany and Viserys to be under the direct care and protection of the Sealord for a time. The Sealord as the witness of the agreement also quite suggestive . The upheaval and quickly being tossed out lines up with the cutthroat / often regime change type politics of Braavos as well. And even if not the best climate for lemon trees surely one well tended could survive in Braavos for a bit as its not incredibly cold and / or harsh there either. But most important is what the lemon tree / house with the red door represents to and for Dany (also mentioned in this vid) and sheds quite a bit of light into Dany's true character. Surely DT is much more than a conqueror (at times a ruthless one at that, as required) ; the house with the red door is a longing for home , security , protection / safety , family and peace. I suspect her longing for certain aspects mentioned will likely be partially tested with the fAegon situation for example. But these are clear longings and desires of Dany's that are engrained and should persevere through her upcoming challenges ; especially as she has been used and taken advantage of and under threat most of her life. Those longings are imo quite suggestive of her true nature as a person / character.
I wonder how, I wonder why Yesterday you told me 'bout the blue, blue sky And all that I can see is just another lemon tree I'm turning my head up and down I'm turning, turning, turning, turning, turning around And all that I can see is just another lemon tree
I live in North Canterbury and we have just had 2 consecutive nights of -5°c and a week of cooler weather, people are not even wrapping their lemon trees.
There are lemon trees that can survive freezes as well as people can grow them in containers. One of the strategies to keep cold weather citrus alive is to grow it next to a brick wall facing the sun. The bricks store and radiate heat raising the temperature.
8:04 ooooh, the Sealord! Perhaps also tied into where Dany’s three eggs came from…
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George R.R. Martin has admitted (multiple times) that this kind of thing is one of his favorite things about writing. He loves leaving little clues and red herrings and seeing what people pick up on. Ultimately, he likes to give us things to discuss like this. Mysteries to solve.
Or he uses that as an excuse for poor writing so credulous fans lap up his brilliance.
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@@peterg9729 Trying to call narrative choices and the dropping of subtle hints "bad writing" just might be the best demonstration of a complete lack of writing knowledge that I've ever seen. It's really a bit like comparing apples and oranges, only more inane. It almost feels like a desperate lashing out. Especially that, upon seeing my comment about a remark Martin made about what he enjoys writing, and you felt compelled to call him a bad writer, lol. Firstly, both good and bad writers can and do use such plot devices. One has nothing to do with the other. And you can certainly enjoy writing them as either, too, which is what my comment was about. Second, what credentials and/or expertise is it that you have which makes you qualified to judge someone's writing? How many more books have you sold than him? It must be a lot. What're the names of the books you've had published, again? And which ones were adapted into a premium cable series? I'd love to compare… 🤡
If the sea lord had the three dragons eggs, he may have welcomed a pair of Targaryen children that may be able to hatch them. I believe they were hidden her room as cradle eggs.
Hello, Robert. Love your channel and commentary. You get it on things others commenting on GRRM saga stuff completely miss. Thank you for literal ***YEARS*** of insightful and intelligent commentary. You also DON'T assume that your subscribers are somehow brain dead ... because we aren't. It takes intellect to retain all the minutiae that comes along with the Epic.
There are a few facts that connect Dany with Dorne. First her own name , cause she was named after,possibly the only Targaryen that was beloved by the Martell family and well considered by the dornish people . Second, her eyes, the color of her eyes reminded ser Barristan of Ashara Dayne, even thinking that she could have been her daugther. And third , the lemon tree, Dorne seems the only place were lemon trees can grow in Westeros. she actually has Dayne ancestry as Jon.
I think that symbolism can also be applied to the (extremely relatable) bittersweet memory of a safe childhood she can never return to. Very good reading of the lemon symbolism!
@@ThommyofThennlemons are definitely bitter as well as acidic/sour Edit: oh hey, are you northerntommy when viewing the livestreams?? I like reading your comments!
I kind of see the symbolism, the red door is a contrast to Jesus red robe and the Lemon Tree of Braavos that Dany dreamed about could be Christian allegory to the Garden of Eden . When the Cherub With the Flaming Sword drew away Adam and Eve from Paradise. I am pretty sure Eve would have certainly dreamed about Eden and thought of returning home much like Dany. The bible said that "where your heart is, your treasure will be also"
I actually feel bad for Viserys. He was just a boy trying to keep his baby sister alive after losing everything. If Rhaegar had won the throne and raised his siblings they both would have been much better people
Bravos seems to be the right answer but there is one detail that keeps bugging me about it. Namely the other memory Daenerys has about running barefoot through firlds of gras to reach the red door. Sure, this could be a childs memory of a lawn turned into wast fields. But it still feels odd that she remembers the field but no structures, bushes or other things one would find in a park, or even more in a big greenhouse.
@@alexissandren1884 The lack of any mention regarding the Titan's roar strikes me as particularly conspicuous tho. That'd surely be a clear part of a kid's memory of Braavos, no?
@@haerverk If she was in Bravos from a very young age, the roar can have been such a normal everyday sound for her that when she became old enough to form memories it didn't stand out.
It's possible she was outside the city proper, on the mainland. The Bravos probably have territory surrounding the city itself for farmland, etc. Dany being raised in a small farming village in effectively the middle of nowhere seems like a better place to hide her then in the city proper.
People just love to see what they want to see. That so-called "nod" in HOTD was a line specifically about a flower growing and flourishing in a climate where you *wouldn't* expect it to, and the picture in the background was an *orange* tree.
The lemon tree doesn’t sound like a small potted lemon tree in a greenhouse. It sounds like her room is on the second floor with branches coming near her large window. Giving her room the feel of a tree house. As if her room was in its branches. There is the lemon scent but also many other stronger perfumes in the air. Outside the stone home are sunny fields to run in. With other stone houses all around. The door of the house is red. She is always running out playing. The sick man would need quiet. She would be quiet when she visited him. Then leave the house to play. The door was red when it shut and she left for the last time…. The Tree and the Door….If Dany would go to Braavos it would be interesting to see her confusion and her questioning….
ALWAYS GREAT TOPICS👑🐉🖤 Thank you Robert. I saw an article that Bloodraven is making an appearance in finale!🤔that would be great. I hope they actually make him look like BR. As much as they spend, not even an eye patch? Same with Euron
There is a method of growing fruit trees called Espalier, where the trees are trained against a building, wall, or fence. Training against a building can allow you to grow trees slightly outside of your climate range by radiating heat during the Winter months. Russians also grew lemon trees in trenches that were covered with wood and cloth in Winter to shelter against the cold.
Here I was thinking why a lemon tree is so special, they are in the backyards of plenty of people I know. But I do live in Australia, so I had no idea they didn't grow in the cold.
The fact that the sample chapters open with a character being chanstizes for thinking lemonds grownin bravos is George hitting us over that head that sDanny wasn't in Bravos. George doesn't hide things in a way where its almost impossible tonfigure them out. He had us read visions of a injured Robb before the red wedding. Its clear that the lemon tree wasn't in Bravos. Olus, the Red door signifies a sinple life, and a sinole life doesn't include a fancy sea lord Palace and a green house that she would have definitely mentioned.
Interesting. I always wondered why Danny didn't stay and take over Essos. It's bigger, it could be just as wealthy in minerals and metals and fertile for agriculture. I think it would be very interesting to see the Targaryan Dynasties subdue and rule over Essos, gather their strength and develop dragon breeding again and then take over Westeros.
Meyers lemons grow in climates colder than that. Northern California, both on the coast and somewhat inland gets colder than that in the winter and spring and Meyers lemons grow extremely well, and some other types of lemons grow decently well too.
I hope they change the films attack of Kings Landing in the books, cos if she craves love and longs for security, indiscriminate destruction is probably not the best way to go about achieving it
lemon tree i could get, u need just a little soil and warm weather. but its first time i hear about green fields. that makes it not bravos. i always imagined it as a single tree on bare ground and high walls around the house so no one from the city could see them. and now it turns out it was all a lie in my head.
This is the writing, and reporting, that I love about GOT. Small details with profound consequences. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Do you think Dany will discover the truth of the lemon tree? Also, is it possible that she was housed in Dorne during this time, as opposed to a Dorne - friendly ally?
Interesting examination. But we also need to consider reliability. Are Dany's memories real, are they her own, were they imposed on her by Viserys? Did he lie to deceive or protect?
ASOIAF to me, in its base essence, is a story about children being forced into impossible situations by adults who were never allowed to be children themselves. These people are all stunted developmentally, yet they have choices and responsibility thrust upon them that most healthy adults couldn't be trusted with. I think that's something fans often forget, but recurring mentions of the red door for Dany, Winterfell for the Stark kids etc., serve as reminders.
Citrus plants, lemons and oranges etc, are a usual staple of sea fairing people. They prevent scurvy. Just a point as to why this house might have a Lemon Tree. A home with a Sailor.
Of course will be a tentativeness and wariness but also surely some common ground would be found with their anti-slavery views above all else. They i would expect would come to realize she is not the typical Valyrian / dragon-rider.
I always thought it could either be in the Reach in Hightower Lands along the honeywine, Lys, or somewhere in Dorne. Lys has always been a place where you could find the bastards of Valyria, House Hightower and Dayne have a lot of traits that are alike to Valyrians and it’s likely the populace on said houses lands should be similar. There is a snippet in the original draft that said she grew up in Tyrosh which gives very obvious connections to the Blackfyre’s and it is said within the books she speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi Accent. Which is strange for someone supposedly educated in Valyrian by Viserys. But that could be because she just developed the accent from sailing on the many ships.
I wonder how, I wonder why Yesterday you told me 'bout the blue-blue sky And all that I can see is just another lemon tree I'm turnin' my head up and down I'm turnin', turnin', turnin', turnin', turnin' around And all that I can see is just another lemon tree
House Tully may be more magical than we think? Is it possible they are shapeshifters as well? Scottish myth has a good double handful of examples of humans shifting into fish, in particular salmon. And back again. Does Martin hint at this ability? Remember the blackfish escaping river run? Caitlyn surviving post-murder in a river for days.
the lemon tree could also be in a greenhouse. Now that I think of it, with the nature of long summers and winters in the world, I would think it makes sense that the ultra wealthy would invest in greenhouses for lucrative and prestigious crops that otherwise wouldnt survive the long winters.
I think there’s too many inconsistencies with what Dany believes about her childhood, most of them not mentioned in this video. Dany talks about a midnight flight to dragonstone, Jaime later remembers it being an orderly procession during the day, Dany talks about a giant, once in a lifetime storm hitting dragonstone and ripping stones off the walls, yet then in book 2 we are told dragonstone is build out of fused Valyrian stone which can’t be broken like that, and are given no mention of damage from the storm that supposedly everyone remembers being the biggest storm in recent memory, (not to mention and damage to the walls would be irreparable since no one knows how to fuse Valyrian stone), the story of their ejection from the house is extremely fishy because why would a wealthy host allow his staff to rob his Royal guests and then expel them from the palace, that’s horrible behavior. All in all, everything that Dany believes about her childhood, all of which was told to her by Viserys, makes 0 sense and much of the information is contradicted later in the story. The lemon tree is just the biggest one people cling to, but the non-existent damage from the once in a generation storm that 0 characters remember, the discrepancy between jaimes memory and Viserys’ story of a midnight flight, Dany’s memory of the house being a place of simplicity and safety, not an extravagant palace, all of these discrepancies in danys memory add up, and, barring author error, the amount of hoops you’d have to jump through to make the story as presented by Viserys make sense is actually less believable than accepting that she was in another free city and Viserys has fed her a false story of her childhood.
I find it more likely that Dany is wrong about where the "house with the red door" is re: ASOIAF's unreliable narrators. But, since we don't have an answer to that, it's fun to theorize one way (she's right about where the lemon tree and house with the red door is) or another (she's wrong about the tree and house). Unreliable narrator -> she's wrong. QED. I do look forward to the fireworks of the Braavos/Arya plot, whichever way it turns out. Ty so much for the content. It's always thought provoking, well researched, and sooooo re-watchable.
I think it was that the Sea Lord's deal was with Derry and when he died the deal died with him. Why the house is so significant is because, I am certain, Arya will hide inside it to escape the Faceless Men. Infer from that what you will.
Could also be that the sealord was (pun intended) harbouring them in secret, and when the city found out, the keyholders voted him out with extreme prejudice.
The thing I find most compelling about Lemongate is that while yes, the wealthy of Braavos could afford to have fruit trees growing in private greenhouses, this tree was very specifically outside Dany's window. I find it very hard to believe even the best-tended lemon tree would do well in the climate of Braavos.
Idk if anachronistic is the correct word there. It usually denotes something belonging to the wrong time period. Specifically the past, rather than a different corporal location
I know people always jump on the lemon tree, but I actually think the bigger giveaway that it’s not Braavos to me is the “green fields” we hear a lot of descriptions of Braavos and grassy plains is about the exact opposite. I honestly think the entire outdoors of this house is simply the product of her imagination. Almost like as a young child she would have this idea of a dream house she truly felt safe and happy in and over time her imagination of that dream home home took over reality. I’m not sure if this applies to everyone, but I know for a fact I had memories as a young child around the same age Dany would’ve of been, that never actually happened or happened very differently. For example I have a scar on my hand, I believed I had gotten it while playing at a park as a kid. I had vivid memories of it, especially my parents reaction to it because I believed it was one of my only memories I had of them being together. Well when I was probably 15 or 16 I made a mention of remembering that day still to my mom and she was really confused. Turns out that entire memory never happened, my parents were already divorced at the time I got the scar, I never hurt myself seriously at a park and the scar was actually from a removal of some type of mole doctors believed could’ve been cancerous. Point being the brain is very strange, especially when it comes to the brain being in early stages of development where it will have a hard time distinguishing imaginations of events from reality, especially if that alleged memory carries emotional weight.
For possible political gain plus it's not like Dany or vis or any of the recent targs were slavers, sure the barvosi don't like dragon lords but these lords have neither dragons nor slavery not allying with them for gain out of an old grudge against long dead ancestors would just be stupid
Well... That sealord DID get deposed not too long after they arrived. They spent maybe a couple years at most in the house with the red door. I suspect they were his dirty little secret.
This is contextually rellivent but also not: I live in north norther California(1hour from Oregon) it gets lower than 32° here and I have 2 lemon bushes(I topped them early) all I do is tarp them at night and take it off mid morning, they thrive just fine. So technically you could grow lemons in the north if you know what your doing and it isn't a long winter. 🤘
I think the bigger hint that it's not in Braavos isn't the lemon tree, it's actually the fields.
A lemon tree can grow in Braavos in the gardens of the rich. However, there are no big fields.
Where does she mention fields? I don't recall that ever being associated with memories of the red door, and I have just finished rereading AGoT.
Excellent point, maybe another free city such as pentos or volantis. She could be misremembering, or mix different memories.
@@Levacque I don't remember which book or chapter that she has the memory, but I do recall that she remembers running barefoot through a field of grass outside the house with the red door.
@@MattDelaney To be fair, to a child of 5-6 years old, a "field" you can run around barefoot in can just be a decent-sized yard with a lawn. Something like that could very plausibly be found inside the Sealord's palace complex.
Preston Jacob’s series “Daenerys and the page of lies” goes in great detail about the amount of inconsistencies there are in Danys memory, it’s actually astounding how many details are given in the first dany chapter that are later totally contradicted by other more reliable narrators
It’s what she DOESNT say about Braavos…The cold miserable sleet and rain and fog that would keep her inside for days. The taste of salt wind. The sound of the waves crashing lulling her to sleep. The loud roar of the Titan. Huge Ships passing by the Palace to be reviewed by the Sealord. The Palace Garden is an island with some trees and a Menagerie. The four main buildings of the Palace are on rock outcrops connected by covered bridge stairs. The Garden may also be reached by a bridge. If her stone house was on the small island she would remember the constant calls of the animals and birds. Their strong smells. The constant stream of servants caring for them and feeding them. As a small child she would be eager to watch and help. She would remember how good a warm fire felt at the end of cold misty days…
Dang, you got me wanting to visit a coastal New England town, and feast on some chowder!
That red door and lemon tree links her to origin. She is one of three. The undying give away who she really is.
Well said. Dany may thinnk she lived in Braavos, but even living with the Sealord doesn't seem to explain everything. Dany sees the "stone house with the red door" as a time of simplicity and bliss, but that just isn't Braavos. Braavos is almost like New York, or any other modern metropolis: it is busy, loud, dynamic, with people always coming and going, with long voyages used to escape the bustling city life. And yet for Dany, we get none of this! Imagine a New Yorker who knows nothing about how big cities function, smell, and look. Its plainly rediculous.
@@Madame702 can you expand on this? im curious as to what you are meaning
@@runaravenscraft5314 First, thing that you need to understand is that George RR Martin each character understanding or point of view. So like a detective you have go back to a time before "Robert's Rebellion" that where you realize that George is telling us their going to four protagonists in the story of the song of Fire and Ice.
If you were hiding the last of the Targaryen Dynasty, you definitely want to keep them in an inside court facing window and not one facing outwards and one that others can look into .
To me it illustrates the Stark contrast ( pun intended) with Jon Snow.. How living with a huge name made her life hell and her wanting to be nameless and simple ( which is was Jon got and suffered in a different turn of events).
One problem with the point on the Iron Bank: The fact they were loaning Robert money gives them a powerful reason to want two Targaryeons in their back pocket. The whole threat of "the Iron Bank will have its due" is that if you fuck with them, they will support your enemies.
Having the ability to at any time finance a Targaryen restoration would give them a massive amount of leverage over Robert.
02:04 Fun fact: in Denmark and Norway in 16th to 19th century there used to be an official called "Beggar King" who supervised activity of vagrants and beggars, ensuring that only those who had the proper permission could beg in city grounds. So essentially, Nordics used to actually TAX beggars for begging.
Shades of the Discworld.
Beggars having to show ID proving they were legitimate beggars and Poor people being on an approved list of The Poor isn't confined to Scandinavia.
Most countries had a version of it to prevent beggin as a profession.
Kind of reminds me of that dude who claims to be Emperor of the US.
I always thought, like Sansa and the unkiss, the red door may be distorted by her trauma. I like to think the door was a normal door splattered with blood, that she’d subliminally convinced herself was a red door to hide from a traumatic event. The lemon may also be a sigil. In ASOIAF it’s not uncommon for the children to romanticise their past trauma to escape
Woah I never heard this before but I totally dig this theory!!!
You went SOOOO Fisher King with that one. You don't even know!
A field of lemons is the house sigil for House Dalt, which is a Dornish house too. Possible that House Dalt was involved in keeping her safe for a time, or that they were a rival faction in Dorne that didn't want to see them return to power.
@@bluemoonflame342we do know the Blackfyre plot is heavily involved with Dorn.
When life gives you lemons, time to foment a conspiracy about the relevance of crimson portals and the proper climates of certain citrus trees. Otherwise we'd all realize she's just a stark using their ancient ice dragon riding genes to mind control fire dragons, and the Targaryens are actually the Others.
Lol
That fomenting sure was foamy!
She’s actually a horse
😂😂😂😂
😳 sounds plausible
I'd always thought of Dany's longing for the lemon tree and the red door was a bit of a nod to Tolkien's "The Hobbit", where Bilbo often longs for the comfort of his "hobbit hole"...
"It's not like how they told it in the stories, Mr Frodo."
Sansa loves lemon cakes, dany sees lemons as a symbol of home, that parallel is so cute.
Great connection
I've always had a theory that lemon cakes symbolize Sansa's love of songs. Truth is sour and lies are sweet.
I hope they meet in the books and they become friends. They both have paralleling stories as they both have lost so much and just long for home.
@@misabelrodriguez1163me too, people always pit them against each other I wish they didn’t
many of us have that place with the red door and lemon tree. it's a good place to get back to.
I love how logical you are in analyzing the plot of the story. I never cared for the fan theories that suggested that the lemon tree pointed to Dany’s false memories, and even a different parentage. I like how Lady Gwyn compared Dany’s Red Door to Gatsby’s Green Light.
I agree, I always thought it was a pretty unnecessary theory. The red door is more of a symbolic thing meant to represent Dany's deepest desires. It doesn't really matter where it is to me, I still think it's probably just some courtyard in Braavos, possibly the Sealord's or some other nobles.
And I have two lemon trees growing inside my house in Alaska. My house is difficult to keep warm during the darkest, stormiest months, but supplementing the trees with growing lights keeps them happy enough.
They are only a few years old, as such it is too early to tell if they will bear flowers.Still, they grow taller and thicker of truck each summer and have produced ever larger leaves .
Braavos is doubtless very much warmer than here, but the humidity would be an issue. Lemons prefer more dry air with high drainage soil, and i'm not sure if they would tolerate sea air very well.
Anyway, this is as always quite well reasoned and researched. Cheers
In some ways, there’s two lemon trees growing inside all of us
@@Matt-xc6sp that's awesome. Thank you
Tbf there are also all kinds of lemon trees, different species have different survival strength. Some need very warm and sunny weather, some others can handle rainy falls or cold winters. You can also cover them to protect them from very low temperatures.
Here it's almost more of a question of "Would Dornish lemon tree be able to survive in Braavos ?" maybe if the garden and gardeners had made the conditions great for them. But there could also be other species of lemon tree that come from areas that are a bit chillier and that'd do fine in Braavos.
I don't think the lemon tree should be the main focus or at least not the only one.
@@Libellulaire Very good info to add into the discussion, thank you. It also makes me wonder, could it have been a hybridised citrus? There are at least dozens, probably hundreds of very unique fruits that have originated through this process. I wonder if some orchard in Dorne has a pomello or tangelo tree?🤓
Edit: pomello are actually not hybrids
I had a house with a white door and a lemon tree outside, in a cold, foggy coastal area, where the air smells like salt and the humidity is so great the granite walls would sweat like the Wall. I can't go there anymore, much like her. I think it could grow, and if you could barely grow vegetables there, a lemon tree would be the ideal, vitamin C and all that.
And the idea of lemon trees being outrageous could be propaganda by the rich, to hide that they have acces to vitamins the poor could never afford to keep alive.
And you can keep fires in winter to warm trees, lots of places used to do it, and it adds to the idea of an opulent custom the powerful hide from the scurvy riddled peasants.
It's totally plausible that the lemon tree is in Braavos. Here in Buenos Aires it is very common to have a lemon tree on every other house, on the summer we have 30°c - 37°c but in the winter it gets as cold as 0° - 5° and the lemon trees survive just fine.
My mom has a 50 year old lemon tree that her mom planted. Once it grew a bit it was replanted into a half of a barrel. She lives in North East Croatia and we used to bring the tree inside every winter and it still bears fruit every year. Winters in Croatia used to be down to minus 30 degrees Celsius, not as harsh nowadays. The bedroom where we kept the lemon wasn't directly heated but it was adjacent to the living room that was, so it never went below freezing point, but wasn't much better than that on the coldest of days.
It is a testament and compliment to Emilia Clarke that, although many other attractive men and women have portrayed Targaryens in various flashback sequences or in HotD, she is the only one who really manages to attain that ethereal, other-worldly, mysterious and captivating beauty that Targaryens are supposed to have. And it's not just a matter of her physical appearance, but she has a presence and gravitas to most of her scenes that somehow... Makes everyone sharing scenes with her seem somehow dim and less vibrant than she herself.
This is not meant as a slight to any other actors and actresses in the two shows, but Emilia Clarke is an incredible natural beauty and a talented actress who I hope has a long and storied career.
Okey dokey
I also think this applies to Viserys’s actor too, when I think of Targaryen, he and Dany in the first scene come to mind perfectly
Agreed. And the fact she was acting with TWO brain aneurysms going on was just nuts.
The kid who plays Aemond comes close, but I agree that he's not on her level. (He would be great for one of the Sons of Feanor if they're ever able to adapt the Silmarillion.)
@@typacskyeah! Plus he’s a brilliant actor.
I think you are right that her being in Dorne raises more questions, but doesn't Arianne Martell remember a little girl from her childhood with oddly coloured hair? Green or blue, I don't remember which. Shaving/dying hair is a pretty common Secret Targaryen trope in the books.
That doesn't sound familiar unless it was about Myrcella's hair being dyed brown to get her safely to Dorne, or some offhand allusion to some dye-haired merchant's child in the Water Gardens. Do you remember the quote at all?
I had to pause this not halfway through. This channel is so wonderful, and this conversation about the Lemon Tree has been a continuing thought
Great research as always my guy. I bet it was at at the Sea Lords palace. Having citrus trees head been a flex for thousands of years. They are small enough to keep in containers and move or cover to avoid freezing.
Yep. Any knowledge of citrus history in Europe (or European climate in fake worlds) would point to courtyards as the place where they grow, like the orangeries at Versailles and all over England. I would guess that the only reason King's Landing doesn't have noteworthy citrus courts is a literary one - GRRM didn't want to muddy the waters regarding Dany's memories.
Funnily enough, even Doran Martell uses courtyards to grow the more delicate blood oranges in the arid heat in Dorne whereas lemons are stable enough to grow in natural groves. It's crazy how much natural detail is in these books.
Well, definitely explore more to the story about the lemon tree and the red door because it makes sense hopefully in the final two books if it ever comes fingers crossed 🤞
It's never getting finished. All these hanging storylines that George has tantalised us with are just red herrings, cool ideas/ brainfarts that he wrote into the manuscript. They're going nowhere.
I think we'll get the whole picture from people like Arya listening at doorways in Braavos and Arianne Martel listening to her father's failed schemes. But Dany will never get to remember it properly.
Winds of Winter will be finished, maybe we get the answer there. A Dream of Spring is another matter.
"Dany, there are no lemon trees in Braavos. It was a Citron."
"EVEYTHING I KNOW IS A LIE!"
"Also, the door was more of a vermillion than red."
"WHO EVEN AM I?!"
ok
I love your videos robert ❤ they mean so much to me - been struggling with health issues and your breakdowns have taken me though surgeries, long recoveries and rest.
The problem with there just being a lemon tree in Braavos after the story telling us multiple times that a lemon tree in Braavos is preposterous is that it's not a satisfying payoff. The books are setting this up like it's going to be a big deal that leaves the reader saying "Wow, this completely changes things" , but the sealord of Braavos being involved isn't anything notable as a reveal.
The fandom set it up as a big thing, mostly because we’re starved for new content so we overanalyze everything. The books just hint at some discrepancy in Danny’s retelling, it doesn’t need a huge pay off.
@@lostvarius I never said it needed a "huge" payoff, but it needs something big enough to go with the repeated reminders that Braavos is not exactly flush with fruit trees. Having the explanation be that it was the former sealord's garden is a non-payoff because it just means she was exactly where she thought she was and everything was exactly as a first time very casual reader would be expected to assume long before the book repeatedly emphasized the general lack of lemon trees.
Honestly, I'd prefer her to have been the guest of the Sealord. To me "Danny's entire backstory is a lie" is far more unsatisfactory than "Danny was safe with Sealord A (who may re-enter the story) until he was deposed/replaced by Sealord B". Occam's razor doesn't have to apply in fiction, but it's unsatisfactory when it doesn't.
Always supposing we ever get an explanation in Winds, which clearly isn't a given.
So Doran supported Viserys the whole time but left him as the Beggar King once the Sea Lord kicked them out? Dany remembers a humble house, not an extravagant garden, you’d think there’d be more than just a lemon tree in the Sealord’s exotic collection. Dany doesn’t remember any of Bravo’s near constant rain or fog or the deafening roar of the Titan multiple times a day. I my opinion it’s just too much of a stretch for the Lemon Tree just to be a symbol of Dorne, who have done nothing for Dany.
It wasn't the Martells helping Daenerys to hide in Dorne. It was the Daynes and the House with the Red Door is somewhere in the Red Mountains, probably High Hermitage. R+L=D and B+A=J.
🔥🔥🔥@@parastroika2393
No, Dany is a targaryen because else viserys would have said something@@parastroika2393
It’s kinda sad how far house Targaryen has fallen from its height that it enjoyed just before the dance of the dragons.
Grrm likes the idea of once great powers being greatly reduced over time and then having a character get a cold reality check about any misconceptions
@@st3pp3nw0lf86 no you
@@awesomehpt8938 yea lol. It's always creepy when some rando just goes all hostile on you. I pity people like that as they're invariably miserable
@@st3pp3nw0lf86Ah man did they enjoy the GRRM lore? Did that hurt you?
@@st3pp3nw0lf86 Yeah I agree that real life is tragic. But a random person on the internet enjoying a brief escape from real life to enjoy a book is a bad thing?
The lemon tree is a sign that Lem Lemoncloak is the real 'prince who was promised'.
😱
I totally thought you made that character up as a joke only to look it up and find out that’s it’s real.
Dany has always had my heart... More so than any of the other characters. I pray she finds home in the end🌹🌹🌹truly
Great vid as always IDG , i have long agreed with your views regarding Dany and the lemon tree / house with the red door from previous videos , livestreams and discussions etc. There are of course some curious elements at work , perhaps should have remembered and mentioned other aspects one living in Braavos would surely remember. But a lot of favorable evidence as well - the decor she remembers would line up with the Sealord's Palace , which would also have well tended gardens and trees and such structures that line up with her memories. Also being potentially politically valuable / formerly quite powerful family and could be used for important purposes at some point would make sense for Dany and Viserys to be under the direct care and protection of the Sealord for a time. The Sealord as the witness of the agreement also quite suggestive . The upheaval and quickly being tossed out lines up with the cutthroat / often regime change type politics of Braavos as well. And even if not the best climate for lemon trees surely one well tended could survive in Braavos for a bit as its not incredibly cold and / or harsh there either.
But most important is what the lemon tree / house with the red door represents to and for Dany (also mentioned in this vid) and sheds quite a bit of light into Dany's true character. Surely DT is much more than a conqueror (at times a ruthless one at that, as required) ; the house with the red door is a longing for home , security , protection / safety , family and peace. I suspect her longing for certain aspects mentioned will likely be partially tested with the fAegon situation for example. But these are clear longings and desires of Dany's that are engrained and should persevere through her upcoming challenges ; especially as she has been used and taken advantage of and under threat most of her life. Those longings are imo quite suggestive of her true nature as a person / character.
This is cool because Dorn is SO much more important in the books than in the show
You went down the path i had in my head. Now I want to get that map out!! I need to frame them. Love this video. His menagerie 😁💚
I wonder how, I wonder why
Yesterday you told me 'bout the blue, blue sky
And all that I can see is just another lemon tree
I'm turning my head up and down
I'm turning, turning, turning, turning, turning around
And all that I can see is just another lemon tree
Oh my God, Fools Garden! That takes me way back
appreciate it
I don't know how accepting the braavosi would be about saving the last valyrians
I live in North Canterbury and we have just had 2 consecutive nights of -5°c and a week of cooler weather, people are not even wrapping their lemon trees.
“… We go deep in…” Recently not so deep, but this is an excellent topic. And we still waiting for expanding varys’s playlist.
There are lemon trees that can survive freezes as well as people can grow them in containers. One of the strategies to keep cold weather citrus alive is to grow it next to a brick wall facing the sun. The bricks store and radiate heat raising the temperature.
8:04 ooooh, the Sealord! Perhaps also tied into where Dany’s three eggs came from…
George R.R. Martin has admitted (multiple times) that this kind of thing is one of his favorite things about writing. He loves leaving little clues and red herrings and seeing what people pick up on. Ultimately, he likes to give us things to discuss like this. Mysteries to solve.
And he likes procrastination
Or he uses that as an excuse for poor writing so credulous fans lap up his brilliance.
@@peterg9729 Trying to call narrative choices and the dropping of subtle hints "bad writing" just might be the best demonstration of a complete lack of writing knowledge that I've ever seen. It's really a bit like comparing apples and oranges, only more inane. It almost feels like a desperate lashing out. Especially that, upon seeing my comment about a remark Martin made about what he enjoys writing, and you felt compelled to call him a bad writer, lol. Firstly, both good and bad writers can and do use such plot devices. One has nothing to do with the other. And you can certainly enjoy writing them as either, too, which is what my comment was about. Second, what credentials and/or expertise is it that you have which makes you qualified to judge someone's writing? How many more books have you sold than him? It must be a lot. What're the names of the books you've had published, again? And which ones were adapted into a premium cable series? I'd love to compare… 🤡
If the sea lord had the three dragons eggs, he may have welcomed a pair of Targaryen children that may be able to hatch them. I believe they were hidden her room as cradle eggs.
"I see a red door and I want to paint it black" - Wherever her childhood home is, she is gonna burn it down before the end.
ASOIAF turns out to be the longest build up ever for a song homage
the eyeroll I just did at this comment.
Awesome deep cut ! Thanks Robert 🎉
🎶"I'm gonna burn it down, and grow me something better!"🎶
Some rich people could just have them in their garden. We see that in our world as well.
Awesome! I like how you put it all together
LEMONGATE FOREVER!
Hello, Robert. Love your channel and commentary. You get it on things others commenting on GRRM saga stuff completely miss. Thank you for literal ***YEARS*** of insightful and intelligent commentary. You also DON'T assume that your subscribers are somehow brain dead ... because we aren't. It takes intellect to retain all the minutiae that comes along with the Epic.
Love this perspective! Thanks for the deep dive
Red Door is or was in Dorne! She was the baby in the Tower Door.
Nice!
Just wanted to say thank you, love all of your videos
There are a few facts that connect Dany with Dorne. First her own name , cause she was named after,possibly the only Targaryen that was beloved by the Martell family and well considered by the dornish people . Second, her eyes, the color of her eyes reminded ser Barristan of Ashara Dayne, even thinking that she could have been her daugther. And third , the lemon tree, Dorne seems the only place were lemon trees can grow in Westeros. she actually has Dayne ancestry as Jon.
Plus, in the books, Dany is still a child. So, of course she longs for the safety she only briefly knew.
Well, a lemon is bitter and it’s sweet smell so the ending to Daenerys story is bittersweet grrm planning to all this story
More sour but i see what you're going for
I think that symbolism can also be applied to the (extremely relatable) bittersweet memory of a safe childhood she can never return to. Very good reading of the lemon symbolism!
@@ThommyofThennlemons are definitely bitter as well as acidic/sour
Edit: oh hey, are you northerntommy when viewing the livestreams?? I like reading your comments!
@@Levacque the peel is very bitter 😖 t. Have foolishly tried to peel a lemon with my teeth once
@@Levacque and yes, thank you very much 🤠
I kind of see the symbolism, the red door is a contrast to Jesus red robe and the Lemon Tree of Braavos that Dany dreamed about could be Christian allegory to the Garden of Eden . When the Cherub With the Flaming Sword drew away Adam and Eve from Paradise. I am pretty sure Eve would have certainly dreamed about Eden and thought of returning home much like Dany. The bible said that "where your heart is, your treasure will be also"
I actually feel bad for Viserys. He was just a boy trying to keep his baby sister alive after losing everything. If Rhaegar had won the throne and raised his siblings they both would have been much better people
Bravos seems to be the right answer but there is one detail that keeps bugging me about it. Namely the other memory Daenerys has about running barefoot through firlds of gras to reach the red door. Sure, this could be a childs memory of a lawn turned into wast fields. But it still feels odd that she remembers the field but no structures, bushes or other things one would find in a park, or even more in a big greenhouse.
@@alexissandren1884 The lack of any mention regarding the Titan's roar strikes me as particularly conspicuous tho. That'd surely be a clear part of a kid's memory of Braavos, no?
@@haerverk If she was in Bravos from a very young age, the roar can have been such a normal everyday sound for her that when she became old enough to form memories it didn't stand out.
@@alexissandren1884 That's not how real Human memories work.
It's possible she was outside the city proper, on the mainland. The Bravos probably have territory surrounding the city itself for farmland, etc. Dany being raised in a small farming village in effectively the middle of nowhere seems like a better place to hide her then in the city proper.
I think Preston's "Lemongate" makes more sense. HOTD even gives a nod to this.
People just love to see what they want to see. That so-called "nod" in HOTD was a line specifically about a flower growing and flourishing in a climate where you *wouldn't* expect it to, and the picture in the background was an *orange* tree.
Preston is a nitwit that makes things up.
The lemon tree doesn’t sound like a small potted lemon tree in a greenhouse. It sounds like her room is on the second floor with branches coming near her large window. Giving her room the feel of a tree house. As if her room was in its branches. There is the lemon scent but also many other stronger perfumes in the air. Outside the stone home are sunny fields to run in. With other stone houses all around. The door of the house is red. She is always running out playing. The sick man would need quiet. She would be quiet when she visited him. Then leave the house to play. The door was red when it shut and she left for the last time…. The Tree and the Door….If Dany would go to Braavos it would be interesting to see her confusion and her questioning….
ALWAYS GREAT TOPICS👑🐉🖤 Thank you Robert. I saw an article that Bloodraven is making an appearance in finale!🤔that would be great. I hope they actually make him look like BR. As much as they spend, not even an eye patch? Same with Euron
The Dragon does not crave peace and safety, only Fire & Blood!
There is a method of growing fruit trees called Espalier, where the trees are trained against a building, wall, or fence. Training against a building can allow you to grow trees slightly outside of your climate range by radiating heat during the Winter months. Russians also grew lemon trees in trenches that were covered with wood and cloth in Winter to shelter against the cold.
Here I was thinking why a lemon tree is so special, they are in the backyards of plenty of people I know. But I do live in Australia, so I had no idea they didn't grow in the cold.
The fact that the sample chapters open with a character being chanstizes for thinking lemonds grownin bravos is George hitting us over that head that sDanny wasn't in Bravos. George doesn't hide things in a way where its almost impossible tonfigure them out. He had us read visions of a injured Robb before the red wedding. Its clear that the lemon tree wasn't in Bravos. Olus, the Red door signifies a sinple life, and a sinole life doesn't include a fancy sea lord Palace and a green house that she would have definitely mentioned.
This is why I love this channel
Interesting. I always wondered why Danny didn't stay and take over Essos. It's bigger, it could be just as wealthy in minerals and metals and fertile for agriculture. I think it would be very interesting to see the Targaryan Dynasties subdue and rule over Essos, gather their strength and develop dragon breeding again and then take over Westeros.
Meyers lemons grow in climates colder than that.
Northern California, both on the coast and somewhat inland gets colder than that in the winter and spring and Meyers lemons grow extremely well, and some other types of lemons grow decently well too.
I hope they change the films attack of Kings Landing in the books, cos if she craves love and longs for security, indiscriminate destruction is probably not the best way to go about achieving it
Hey where's the Robert's Rebellion series? Those were my favorites 😢 will they be re-uploaded or loaded somewhere else?
My lemon tree just boomed over winter in Melbourne Australia, gets as cold as 2C and I just picked over 20kg
So glad to see some non-HotD content.
Enjoying the remake of your old videos!
lemon tree i could get, u need just a little soil and warm weather. but its first time i hear about green fields. that makes it not bravos. i always imagined it as a single tree on bare ground and high walls around the house so no one from the city could see them. and now it turns out it was all a lie in my head.
This is the writing, and reporting, that I love about GOT. Small details with profound consequences.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Do you think Dany will discover the truth of the lemon tree?
Also, is it possible that she was housed in Dorne during this time, as opposed to a Dorne - friendly ally?
Interesting examination. But we also need to consider reliability. Are Dany's memories real, are they her own, were they imposed on her by Viserys? Did he lie to deceive or protect?
ASOIAF to me, in its base essence, is a story about children being forced into impossible situations by adults who were never allowed to be children themselves. These people are all stunted developmentally, yet they have choices and responsibility thrust upon them that most healthy adults couldn't be trusted with. I think that's something fans often forget, but recurring mentions of the red door for Dany, Winterfell for the Stark kids etc., serve as reminders.
Citrus plants, lemons and oranges etc, are a usual staple of sea fairing people. They prevent scurvy. Just a point as to why this house might have a Lemon Tree. A home with a Sailor.
Braavos... helping Valyrians?
Tough to fathom, but I might guess that his friendliness with Targaryens was the reason that particular sealord was removed.
right?
Of course will be a tentativeness and wariness but also surely some common ground would be found with their anti-slavery views above all else. They i would expect would come to realize she is not the typical Valyrian / dragon-rider.
"Let's not get burnerized for funding the guy who kept trying to kill her."
I always thought it could either be in the Reach in Hightower Lands along the honeywine, Lys, or somewhere in Dorne.
Lys has always been a place where you could find the bastards of Valyria, House Hightower and Dayne have a lot of traits that are alike to Valyrians and it’s likely the populace on said houses lands should be similar.
There is a snippet in the original draft that said she grew up in Tyrosh which gives very obvious connections to the Blackfyre’s and it is said within the books she speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi Accent. Which is strange for someone supposedly educated in Valyrian by Viserys. But that could be because she just developed the accent from sailing on the many ships.
I wonder how, I wonder why
Yesterday you told me 'bout the blue-blue sky
And all that I can see is just another lemon tree
I'm turnin' my head up and down
I'm turnin', turnin', turnin', turnin', turnin' around
And all that I can see is just another lemon tree
House Tully may be more magical than we think? Is it possible they are shapeshifters as well? Scottish myth has a good double handful of examples of humans shifting into fish, in particular salmon. And back again. Does Martin hint at this ability? Remember the blackfish escaping river run? Caitlyn surviving post-murder in a river for days.
the lemon tree could also be in a greenhouse.
Now that I think of it, with the nature of long summers and winters in the world, I would think it makes sense that the ultra wealthy would invest in greenhouses for lucrative and prestigious crops that otherwise wouldnt survive the long winters.
I think there’s too many inconsistencies with what Dany believes about her childhood, most of them not mentioned in this video. Dany talks about a midnight flight to dragonstone, Jaime later remembers it being an orderly procession during the day, Dany talks about a giant, once in a lifetime storm hitting dragonstone and ripping stones off the walls, yet then in book 2 we are told dragonstone is build out of fused Valyrian stone which can’t be broken like that, and are given no mention of damage from the storm that supposedly everyone remembers being the biggest storm in recent memory, (not to mention and damage to the walls would be irreparable since no one knows how to fuse Valyrian stone), the story of their ejection from the house is extremely fishy because why would a wealthy host allow his staff to rob his Royal guests and then expel them from the palace, that’s horrible behavior.
All in all, everything that Dany believes about her childhood, all of which was told to her by Viserys, makes 0 sense and much of the information is contradicted later in the story. The lemon tree is just the biggest one people cling to, but the non-existent damage from the once in a generation storm that 0 characters remember, the discrepancy between jaimes memory and Viserys’ story of a midnight flight, Dany’s memory of the house being a place of simplicity and safety, not an extravagant palace, all of these discrepancies in danys memory add up, and, barring author error, the amount of hoops you’d have to jump through to make the story as presented by Viserys make sense is actually less believable than accepting that she was in another free city and Viserys has fed her a false story of her childhood.
The book even talks about "Sicilian lemon", what makes me think that Sicilia is a part of Westeros.
Life didn't give us lemons. We bred them ourselves. So when life gives you lemons, blame that guy.
Thanks
I find it more likely that Dany is wrong about where the "house with the red door" is re: ASOIAF's unreliable narrators. But, since we don't have an answer to that, it's fun to theorize one way (she's right about where the lemon tree and house with the red door is) or another (she's wrong about the tree and house).
Unreliable narrator -> she's wrong. QED.
I do look forward to the fireworks of the Braavos/Arya plot, whichever way it turns out. Ty so much for the content. It's always thought provoking, well researched, and sooooo re-watchable.
I think it was that the Sea Lord's deal was with Derry and when he died the deal died with him. Why the house is so significant is because, I am certain, Arya will hide inside it to escape the Faceless Men. Infer from that what you will.
Could also be that the sealord was (pun intended) harbouring them in secret, and when the city found out, the keyholders voted him out with extreme prejudice.
"What do you mean Baratheon "Regime", they won by conquest!" XD
Lol ikr
Not sure what you think the word regime means....
You use anachronistic wrong just before 4:40
The thing I find most compelling about Lemongate is that while yes, the wealthy of Braavos could afford to have fruit trees growing in private greenhouses, this tree was very specifically outside Dany's window. I find it very hard to believe even the best-tended lemon tree would do well in the climate of Braavos.
Your voice at the very start reminded me of Roy Dotrice for some reason
1:05 sailing under a statue of a man wearing a skirt is rather ballsy?
In maximum subverted expectations Daenerys is Daenerys Brightflame from Lys, Aegon is Aegon Blackfyre and the only Targaryen is called Jon Snow.
A Lemontree Grows in Sunspear
Idk if anachronistic is the correct word there. It usually denotes something belonging to the wrong time period. Specifically the past, rather than a different corporal location
Maybe Incongruous?
Great video!
I completely agree!
Dying when Winter comes is fitting for the narrative too
I know people always jump on the lemon tree, but I actually think the bigger giveaway that it’s not Braavos to me is the “green fields” we hear a lot of descriptions of Braavos and grassy plains is about the exact opposite.
I honestly think the entire outdoors of this house is simply the product of her imagination. Almost like as a young child she would have this idea of a dream house she truly felt safe and happy in and over time her imagination of that dream home home took over reality.
I’m not sure if this applies to everyone, but I know for a fact I had memories as a young child around the same age Dany would’ve of been, that never actually happened or happened very differently.
For example I have a scar on my hand, I believed I had gotten it while playing at a park as a kid. I had vivid memories of it, especially my parents reaction to it because I believed it was one of my only memories I had of them being together. Well when I was probably 15 or 16 I made a mention of remembering that day still to my mom and she was really confused.
Turns out that entire memory never happened, my parents were already divorced at the time I got the scar, I never hurt myself seriously at a park and the scar was actually from a removal of some type of mole doctors believed could’ve been cancerous.
Point being the brain is very strange, especially when it comes to the brain being in early stages of development where it will have a hard time distinguishing imaginations of events from reality, especially if that alleged memory carries emotional weight.
Why would a Braavosi take in a Targaryen, one of their former slaver owners?
For possible political gain
plus it's not like Dany or vis or any of the recent targs were slavers, sure the barvosi don't like dragon lords but these lords have neither dragons nor slavery not allying with them for gain out of an old grudge against long dead ancestors would just be stupid
Well... That sealord DID get deposed not too long after they arrived. They spent maybe a couple years at most in the house with the red door. I suspect they were his dirty little secret.
This is contextually rellivent but also not: I live in north norther California(1hour from Oregon) it gets lower than 32° here and I have 2 lemon bushes(I topped them early) all I do is tarp them at night and take it off mid morning, they thrive just fine. So technically you could grow lemons in the north if you know what your doing and it isn't a long winter. 🤘
Quentyn shoulda gave her a lemon.