Full podcast episode: th-cam.com/video/bqeuFiAUU4o/w-d-xo.html Lex Fridman podcast channel: th-cam.com/users/lexfridman Guest bio: Steven Bonnell, aka Destiny, is a progressive political commentator and a live streamer on TH-cam. Melina Goransson is a live streamer on Twitch.
Hasan has been exceptionally dishonest unfortunately . Knowingly making false claims like how he started twitch politics . One of multiple clear n false claims.
It appears to me to be a jealousy from Hasan towards Destiny and not the opposite as you have first thought mister Lex ;) - From a non US muslim viewers
There is a flaw in his thinking tho. Some people do shitty things and deserve being called out. Calling out the shitty things people do does NOT make you a bad person. This "equal" wrong doing/shared blame mentality is a fallacy.
@@sarasmith8037 Dislike of someones behavior/being critical is not grudge holding or hatred. Destiny willing to have discussions with hasan at any point.
Yeah none really have any credentials on the topics they speak. They’re all just good at reciting Wikipedia facts and using their debate tactics and get pedestalized by their teenage audience.
@@brunoactis1104 I think Hassan thinks he knows a lot about Lex. Any rational thinker that has watched one of Hassan‘s stream will form the basic structure of conclusions about Hassan that destiny 100% correctly describes
it´s adorable that Lex doesn´t understand how those so called "political streamers" function, but good for him. That´s definately not something you should waste your time with
@@hamzah654 Think of what a narcissist would do with a big platform and ignorant supporters that never want to see them apologize, only want to see them "win". Vaush is the worst about this. His fans don't even need him to "win" anymore: they need him to "not lose". He's taken that to heart, which is why he can unapologetically tell a PhD holder that water in Mexico isn't H2O, because in Mexico they call it "aqua". I am not making that up. He didn't win, but in the eyes of his ignorant fans, he didn't lose either.
ive heard hasan describe the relationship the same way. doesnt mean either of them are creating drama its just a dramatic way to describe their relationship.
I mean it's Hasan and Vaush that don't want to talk to him in the first place, Destiny is always open to discussion. So yeah it was them that created the drama
@@jett6206 Nah Hasan is a pos outside of the politics. He’s a hypocrite, He spreads misinformation, bad faith ideas, ignorant/non critical thought. There is a lot wrong with Hasan and the content he makes.
The problem here is that Lex really just doesn't know the details on why these relationships fell apart. His heuristic is a fair one -that one shouldn't trust someones worst enemy to summarize their character- but its a complete nonstarter if your talking to that enemy. Destiny obviously believes he is justified in his view of Hasan and maybe he is, but Lex has good reason to be incredibly skeptical of everything Destiny has to say on that matter which just results in this circle of Lex saying Destiny should be more charitable and Destiny saying he has enough information to substantiate his view over and over.
The thing with Hasan is that if you get the chance that he speaks about something you're 100% informed on, you'll notice his takes are actually very surface level, sometimes not 100% true, and are simply being said with a tremendous amount of confidence, which gives people no room to doubt him.. This goes with what Destiny is saying here. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes you wonder how many people are actually aware of this.
It’s not even surface-level. Hasan is a complete dunce who understands literally nothing of what he talks about and doesn’t even have the IQ points to make-up the ground he refuses to cover. I’d rather talk to a 1st grader trying to explain quantum physics to me, because at least then I can wave-away them talking utterly out of their ass, and they don’t want to murder innocent people.
@@PsychedelicSocialist No you could not. I don't know much about Destiny, I always watched Hasan more, but just in Lex's interview I saw Destiny admit he didn't know much about X topic so he couldn't really comment more times than I even saw Hasan do. Hasan would never do that, he would give his take no matter how much he knew about it and say it with a straight face. And that doesn't apply to Lex at all. If there's something Lex does is ask questions because he admits he doesn't know everything.
@@ArimaSenne1 I think he is slow and stubborn with changing his views. But theres some geninuity to that. Vaush is a p*do apologist and Hasan is just a dude bro, your local lap dog for leftist political opinions
The problem with both parties, inside their own and with each other, is that they take disagreement as personal affronts. Get out of your feelings, disagree, and go back to being friends. It's really that simple but people don't seem to grasp that these days.
The problem here is that Lex really just doesn't know the details on why these relationships fell apart. His heuristic is a fair one -that one shouldn't trust someones worst enemy to summarize their character- but its a complete nonstarter if your talking to that enemy. Destiny obviously believes he is justified in his view of Hasan and maybe he is, but Lex has good reason to be incredibly skeptical of everything Destiny has to say on that matter which just results in this circle of Lex saying Destiny should be more charitable and Destiny saying he has enough information to substantiate his view over and over.
@@colamity_5000 I wasn't talking about Lex v Destiny really. More just commenting on why mainstream leftist streamers seem to hate each other when they probably agree on 90+% of stuff. But yeah I agree with your point also.
Its worse than that. Destiny is really smart and he likes to use it as a cudgel against others meanwhile hasan just adopts woke rhetoric. Both are shit but for different reasons.
@@squeakypistonproductions2228 Oh, no. I just read your comment in another thread and thought to myself "Wow, well said. Maybe this guy gets it"". And then you had to leave this remarkably stupid comment. You're 1 for 1 - I believe in you
@@IPatricio nobody is saying he wouldn’t talk to him but if someone trashes you why even engage with them? Also, if someone trashed me out of nowhere then wants to talk with would seem so two-faced. Critiquing is a different story.
@@Skullfire56 Only sensitive people would consider what Hasan says about Lex trash talking. He’s criticizing Lex and Lex’s fans can’t take it so they call it trash talking. If Lex is truly the intellectual people portray him to be then he would have no problem engaging in a conversation with someone like Hasan with opposing views.
"yeah but what if ur like wrong" I wouldn't call that pushing back. I'd call it lazy and annoying. It's not even about political differences, Hasan is just an extremely shallow thinker, about literally everything. He has no positive affect on the culture of any realm, whatsoever.
@@ttt69420 I don't have gripes with the idea that hasan is a shallow thinker. What bothers me is that Destiny will proclaim to be super rational and good faith, but his content is riddled with a need to react to drama in a pretty volatile way. Saying shit like "we're sworn enemies" and "I hate them"; all it does is add fuel to the fire and lead to a never-ending cycle of bridge-burning and superficial drama shit shows. Its annoying, it's petty and destiny's smart enough to know better than to let himself get dragged into all of it
@@localkauf Agreed. I don't particularly like destiny either. Nor do I like the "political debate" sphere in general. But, there's no denying that hasan is most definitely on a significantly lower level of consciousness than Destiny, which makes it impossible to respect him. And I can only see Lex pushing back like this because he's never actually watched Hasan.
@@ttt69420 tbf if your bar for respecting someone is being atleast as or more intelligent than destiny, then that's a pretty high bar, then I can't think you respect many people! But in all seriousness, I get your point. I still don't think hasan deserves the hate he receives from destiny. Its just not productive in any way
@@ttt69420 In what way is hasan a shallow thinker? I see destiny fans say that ALL THE TIME (not calling u a destiny fan specifically) and I just don’t understand it. I feel like he breaks down things pretty well whenever I listen to him, and I listen to destiny as well who also makes a lot of good points.
He did it because he knew Destiny can handle and appreciates criticism. He couldn't do it to Shapiro because Shapiro's ego and mind would fall apart instantly.
@@Joe-xm3uc I never understood this mentality. Do you not realize sooner or later (much sooner than you anticipate) you will be an "old" person? Do you think you will be less wise or more wise then?
Maybe its me, but the whole "I'm all about love" has worn super thin. Most respectable scholars, *deep* thinkers, innovators, they don't talk like a young girl's stuffed animal.
For real! I'm glad other people are having a problem with like myself. Lex is obviously intelligent, but him pushing this "love" thing on to all of his guests to the point where he dismisses their own feelings because he feels they aren't genuine according to his own worldview. It's very cringe.
@@jett6206 Maybe Lex can get his crush Joe Rogan to join him in a bed-in at a swanky hotel to push for peace amongst streamers and podcasters the same way John Lennon and Yoko Ono did back in the 60's?
@@morniclegreen3534 if we are talking the streamers and influencer scene the most "loving" thing you can do is criticize them a whole lot more than they are currently, way too many are exploiting their fanbase, and pushing frauds.
I was on the same StarCraft team as Destiny back in the day. Hosted show matches with him and stuff. Has been really interesting to kind of watch his entire evolution from a sorta 3rd person view. From conservative leaning gamer to progressive political streamer over the course of 10 years. He’s always been an intelligent guy IMO, I can appreciate that he doesn’t virtue signal or pander so I’m willing to watch even when I disagree.
@@atlemartoresonfjeldstad4557 He was a grandmaster in Starcraft which is one of the hardest games to be high ranked in the world. I think it’s possible for someone to have takes that you disagree with but also still be intelligent.
@@ChosenPlaysYT yea i used to be normie right winger in 2016 after watching destiny and learning from him and flaws of the right wing he brought me to the left, not super dumb left like hassan vaush but a nice position, i disagree w destiny on guns but everything else 90%we agree on!
Hearing Destiny say that he thinks he is not ideologically driven honestly explains a lot. Like everyone is ideologically driven, it shows he is not very introspective about his own beliefs and why he holds them
@@fvckgoo9le242 the fighting thing is kind of stupid though right? If debates were all ended by fisticuffs society would be doomed because gym bros would be running the planet on their very limited brain cells.
The problem with Destiny, Hasan and Vaush is that they all seem to be in a state of emotional arressted development and haven't matured much past teenage. Although in fairness I think Destiny might legitimately be on the spectrum. I've a vague recollection of Destiny saying that he was on the spectrum in a video.
I'm only 40 seconds in, I saw Destiny say that "Hasan put's in a lot of work" and I immedately stopped watching, Hasan entire streams are him "reacting" to other people's videos, he plays videos made by someone else , makes bottom of the barrel commentary and then watches another video, he doesn't even look up for what videos watch himself he watches what his audience tells him, imagine if as some tard streaming himself watching TV. Destiny is a narcissist or sociopath (don't know in which category to put him, just a dude with no emotions,compulsive liar and manipulative) that for some weird reason a lot of people believe he is intelligent, he will contradict himself constantly and uses debate tactics all the time on top of lies, he will never clarify his position and constantly obfuscates as a way of confusing people so they will end up agreeing with him, just a waste of time. It's a good example of how you don't need to know anything or be anyone to make it as a political commentator, you just need to say the right things and people will listen to you, my personal theory is that people listen to people like Destiny because he plays vidyagames like them, is into internet culture like them, and the people watching him are too stupid to actually do something like listening to someone who is an expert or reading a book, it's similar to night political comedy shows that cover the news, all the audience are tards because those are the only people who will watch such thing, why would anyone care about the opinion of someone like Destiny, much less give him money? You need to be a complete wheelchair symbol.
I’ve seen a bunch of clips of Lex and it’s clear he “dumbs himself down” to make his guest feel more comfortable. It’s nice to see him embrace his intelligence more than he usually does
I think he’s dealing with someone he doesn’t take very seriously, so he’s goofing around. He’s not taking it too seriously because for him it’s all online drama. At least that’s how it comes across.
After years in the online politics space, Destiny is basically the only worthwhile voice out there. I was a Vaush viewer for years, but he’s just agonizing to listen to lately. He’s incredibly arrogant, bad faith, and refuses to do any research at all.
As someone who watches Hasan, Destiny and Vaush I really appreciated Lex’s pushback here to really talk more about the issues between them all. However I read the Manga and know they all team up in the final arc.
Hasan is one of the dumbest and most evil people to curse the internet. I too hate Hasan. I’m honestly not a hateful person either. Hasan is the only person on the internet I genuinely despise..
Hasan is a dude who knows nothing and comments on some articles and watches videos, that's hardly a media person. Gives the most vanilla opinion or most hc leftist position when it comes to politics and hardly feels the need to argument his opinion more than max one sentence. Feels a lot like not caring and gatering. He is just a basic streamer minus games, branding himself as someone who knows something about anything. He is a reactor if anything, the most lazy content.
I hate contrived kumbaya... but with Lex it feels authentic to me. Of course you don't know me so I'm not sure why you should care, but maybe I just want you to consider that sometimes kumbaya can be kind of an authentic thing as well?
but... but... what about love? I'm sure if we all held hands and skipped through enchanted fields of poppys and Daisys and shared yummy delicious cookies with each other then we could all be friends and hug one another the way my bubbie used to hug me when I was a little boychik. 😂
He’s a great facilitator of conversation and asks great questions. But, he loses me on this “love” stuff. When he says it, I just imagine he is high af. There was multiple episodes where he just goes on a long tangent of “love”. Maybe he is in a better place then me (he probably is) but the love stuff completely loses me.
I think that especially with these overly inflammatory streamer dramas it's kinda refreshing to have someone come from outside and be like 'hey are you sure that you guys are mortal enemies and all that stuff?'
I don’t think Destiny and Ben Shapiro would ever get along, but it’s kinda ridiculous how much these three hate each other when they’re so similar. Lex is just being the adult in the room here, seeing how childish all this drama is
Hasan is popular because social media wants him to be. I couldn't tell you why other than the fact he regurgitates everything they want him to say dumber than most other lefties could. He got into "politics" via his uncle, then he just kept doing that, stream of consciousness, mainstream talking points with zero critical thought and continuous "bro" and "literally". He got awards very early on in his career that propelled him. He's legit stupid. He's probably around 85 iq. But he's tall and physically attractive. That's all it takes. Nearly every other left wing "commentator" or "creator" or "debater" is more competent and more intelligent.
I've never really liked Hasan's commentary but couldn't quite articulate why and I think Destiny explains it pretty well here. I also find most his "reaction" videos just him eating food and going "what? Dude that's crazy"
@@joshibrahim1537 Tell us one thing that Hasan has ever said, that hasn't already been upvoted to the top of r/politics. Everything Hasan says is an unoriginal thought, and I'm honestly not sure if he is capable of thought.
Lex is such a great host. His responses aren’t just timely, they’re well spoken and truly inquisitive. He doesn’t waste any time. So many podcasts act as a fluff piece for celebrities. Not his. He exposes the human within his guests. It’s refreshing.
I don't think he'd want to outright agree with Destiny and criticize him before he's given him a chance to come on his podcast and get his perspective first. But tbh I'm not really interested in seeing them hash it out, they're both political commentators but fill different niches
@@reasonabledictator8993 what's your obsession with these dudes? Can' they just be different? Isn't that the whole point of their existence, being different so they can have their own army of minions? Any grown up would know better than giving a shit about what these dudes think. Destiny can talk himself into being a cuck, what else do you need to listen from him? Find something better to do with your life.
@@xuantungnguyen9719 I'm interested in different view points. Just so happens destiny has some good takes on things. I enjoy opposing view points in political discussions. Them being more tolerant will result in their communities not living in an echo chamber. It also results in opposing communities being able to formulate their own beliefs better. This isn't just a Destiny/Hasan thing. It's bigger than that. I think you could do way better than the back handed comments and trying to demonize me for enjoying good conversation. I could care less for his relationship choices also I have no clue why that's relevant
I think a lot of these lefty streamer guys are so smart they are dumb. Vaush is a rich socialist who doesn't redistribute his money but wants to have politicians do that to the average working person. Destiny moved from cali to Florida because he"felt" like he wasn't getting any thing out of paying his high taxes but still supports high taxes if he would just get what he pays for... Turns out giving lots of money to politicians doesn't mean they are trusting or effective with it.
Is it hasan or the policies he supports? Because it's very difficult to say I hate all socialism therefore I dislike Hasan vs saying I dislike his understanding of socialism and his pseudo way of pushing it.
I dislike Hasan, because of a number of reasons. He’s very much inflammatory and opposed to the opposite political side, He and his community both condemn and wish death upon anyone that disagrees with him. His community uses horrible language against people on the right, and Hasan is fine with it . Hasan used to do “bro code” videos. Some pretty sexist dumb shit , and he acts like he’s above everyone else who has more misogynistic views . (I’m by no means a misogynist but just hate hypocrites) He’s just a misinformed far leftist who has no idea what he’s actually talking about and has managed to gain a huge following , and never takes the time to really look into things he disagrees with. His ideology is dangerous, and millions of people watch his content and agree with him. People like this are a plague on society . I love many of his stream buddies , but hate seeing them agreeing with his political stances . In short he’s one of the internets biggest hypocrites, right after his buddy Ethan Klein .
@@elliottbetancourt6914 As somebody who is a Bernie supporter, Hasan is just obnoxious to me. He just come off as a douche, and I think he's mostly just surface level takes.
People should see Destiny as a warning not to be perpetually online. I can’t imagine anybody wanting to grow up to be that guy.. just perpetually a 13 year old.
He's obviously saying it semi-jokingly. He also said that he'd welcome Vaush or Hasan back in if they wanted. These people rejected him first and it is they who refuse to talk to him.
This is confusing. Lex is speaking to Destiny like a Dad who's giving his kid friend advice. "Just hug it out, Bud." But Destiny is literally telling him, "I'm good, I don't have beef." Lex is telling Destiny to listen, but Lex isn't listening to him. Destiny has major patience lol.
@@maxpowers4436 I'm on the side of Destiny is being overly harsh here, at least early on in the discussion. But yea Lex doesn't even know anything about the situation.
Enlightened centrists that are completely flabbergasted by someone having consistent ideological backbone. “Omg you always know what hasan will say” Yes ok? And? Lmao
@@williambjork2777 yeah 👍. Destiny thinks he's amazing because he criticizes his ideological equals more than his ideological opponents. He has no loyalty and creates a lot of infighting/drama for no reason. It honestly feels like he is helping fascists more than liberals just in a roundabout way. The dude has trust issues. Imo most of the left should ignore him/ not trust him because of how he acts.
Because you have listened to everything Destiny has said. The same thing can be said for Hasan, he's the definition of an echo-chamber. None of these political streamers have anything of actual value to contribute and if you think otherwise you are part of the problem, I also assume you do since you directly attacked Destiny most likely having the position that Hasan is right in most things, or Vaush.
@@jonteguy Well I agree. They all sound like a echo chamber. The same talking points and opinions all the time, nothing new or original. I myself think they like other streamers with similiar political views, only was useful to shill for the democratic party, then they stopped being useful, even becoming banned from Twitch
Eh I liked his take that blaming the mainstream media is stupid bc its just an echo of what people are really craving/want. Maybe not the most original thing I have EVER heard but def not common.
@@jonteguy they aren't supposed to be great philosophical thinkers. They talk and about news and give their opinion and most people understand that. Vaush and destiny do like to make it appear they're doing more through debates and whatnot but atleast from what I've seen hasan just accepts he's a content creator
You are probably underrating him. He is a good left wing commentator, and he is pretty fair. He has gone against the standard talking points and he actually does have real conversations with almost anybody who asks, including drop ins. If you have any sort of working knowledge of that sphere, you would know how much different people like Hassan and Vaush actually are, when compared to Destiny. I actually think Lex did not do enough research in this regard. It would honestly be like comparing Donald Trump to Mitt Romney. the only thing they really have in common is that they are standing on the same side of the river.
I'm starting to notice lex pushing back on the guest, but way too hard like he's a therapist or something. I'm really not liking how he's acting like he's on some moral high ground now. I always thought of his channel as more of documenting people's beliefs and experiences than a channel where he tries to convince the guest of some truth.
The fact that he said he’s not ideologically driven shows he’s reached a level of insanity unbeknownst to humankind up to this point. His whole moral and political platform is based of his atheistic liberal premises which is in of itself an ideological starting point
As a self identifying American “leftist” who has NEVER participated in online discourse surrounding my politics, this was fascinating to hear. Just from a surface level, as somebody completely unfamiliar with Destiny and Hasan, I would love to hear how familiar Destiny is with actual leftist theory i.e: the works of Marx, Engels, the Frankfurt school, Satre, and to a lesser extent Guevara, Zedong, and Stalin. Because I think the personal, self referential approach he takes to leftism is completely antithetical to the IDEA of leftism.
it's funny because hasan started watching the video of lex and kanye's interview and almost immediately began unfairly shitting on lex. i turned it off immediately
what do u mean? Rogan got where he is because of his ability to push and question his guests, its what makes his podcast good. Take the dick out of your mouth, the cum is dripping.
Why is Lex wanting Destiny to be all buddy buddy with Hasan and Vaush of all people? Why does he need to put in more effort with them than anyone else that are prominent political figures?
Lex is living in a fantasy world where we all can love each other and bake each other cookies and hold hands and skip through fields of beautiful flowers 😂 No but for real he's really naive.
@@FutilityOfReason Is it so bad to want people to come together. I'm friends with people who have much further political divides than than the ones between destiny, vaush and hasan and it's still love at the end of the day. You guys are too obsessed with drama and egging on spectacles for no reason.
@@gardenerzh0ngbase173 some people are genuinely bad people. Hasan is one of them. I love Lex and want people to get along but people who operate in such bad faith like Hasan and Cenk and people like that are so far beyond redemption and don't deserve a 500th chance.
I don't agree with everything Lex says, but as a new viewer I appreciate the respect he shows people. He does that while also challenging their narrative.
Lex doesn't know what Hasan and Vaudh are like. And guilting Destiny to be charitable is misguided. Hasan and Vaush are truly despicable humans that deserve no sympathy. I do hope they change but they are too successful for their own good.
@@skateboard446 A lot of what he's saying is based on value judgments rather than information, so right and wrong become subjective. Maybe you're being facetious though..
@@NelsonMandela961 he comes off as having a god complex in this video, the cutting off, the pushing back compared to other guests kinda speaks to how spineless he is. A man isn't how strong he is based of his feats but how he treats those he perceives beneath him. Glad kayne pushed his hairline back
I think people are a bit too quick to praise Lex on pushing back. It looks like the only reason Lex pushes back here is because he sees himself as an almighty love guru that can make the world better if he makes his guests say nice things about their enemies. This isn't pushing back for the conversation's sake... this is for Lex's childish desires to make everybody think in candy land terms like he does. Sorry Lex, I think your ego snuck in thru the backdoor and took you over
I think it's more the fact that he's only now tapping into the political streamer bubble and if you don't keep up with their petty drama it just straight up sounds childish as all hell to hear a grown ass man call another grown ass man his "sworn enemy". Which is personally a term I haven't heard since my elementary school days lmao All of the drama and hate the political streamers share for each other is obviously emotionally driven and childish as hell
This was a really annoying clip. It's obnoxious and arbitrary when criticism is pathologized. Lex was interrupting and dissecting too much. Destiny being critical isn't inherently a bad thing. Focus on truth and understanding rather than forced positivity and trying to hamfist every conversation into sugar coating. "Charitable" interpretations are not necessary and some people force it way too hard. It's arbitrary. We should have space to speak, where all participants prioritize empathy and collaboration.
The one thing I really dislike about lex is when he pushes back for no reason, like destiny dislikes Hasan and has clear reasons why, yet lex keeps pushing him into thinking he’s wrong for that. It’s perfectly human to hold grudges and lex just comes off as robotic trying to make everyone all peace and love all the time.
if only lex knew what hasan thinks of lex. he has mentioned many times in his streams before that Lex is a "dumb guy's smart guy". and he didnt mean that in a positive way. I do find it ironic that in the way lex tried to give hasan a free take, pushing back against destiny; even though Lex has never met hassan before, Hassan would never return that same gesture. Hasan has very strong opinions, even more so if hes never met you, immediately goes for the negative take if your opinion doesnt even remotely align to his ideology. without context, watching this, you'd assume that destiny might be overreaching, and that he is being petty/impartial against this guy called hassan. But once you watch hassan's streams, and give it a fair chance. you kind of understand wat destiny is kind of saying. you come to the conclusion, how is there +25k people still watching this guy's stuff +12 hours a day. I could barely get through it. I've been listening for a long while, tuning in now and then. and hassan's opinions on so many things are soo bad. And its not that his opinion is the problem, but his take on deconstructing and defending his opinion is so shallow and nonexistent. there not even thought out well. its straight up mudslinging with no coherent thought of self-introspection on his take. i dont think hassan even takes the time to stop, take a step back, and look over analyze what he just said and think it through. I truly believe, he has a set of people he follows, and whenever those peopel make an opinionated piece, he just copies, follows it, and regurgitate it.
Yes it is really funny that Lex is trying so hard to defend Hasan when he is known for being as incendiary and toxic commentator if not even more sometimes than Destiny. Just shows Lex doesn't know much at all about Hasan. Hasan has countless times made comments for example of how republicans are incestuous and laughing that they are fat etc. And easily goes to hateful unhinged rants about others if he gets agitated enough.
That’s actually not true I’ve heard Hasan several times just recently giving Lex big props and praise for being a great and important interviewer. I think he referred to him as “a Band-Aid for humanity”.. it was actually quite endearing
@@ComradeFromRhody401 Take this for example: th-cam.com/video/hgKqWGY8YOQ/w-d-xo.html . I saw this stream live and before this he was saying he has no idea who Lex is yet had no problem insulting him in front of more than 30 thousand viewers while allowing his chat to do the same. So hypocritical when he fosters this hate-bullying community yet whenever someone criticises him he starts going ballistic and plays the victim. He also hates when chat critiques him.
It's so funny he says he's not ideological. I try my hardest not to be ideological, but I have to admit that I am definitely ideologically driven in many ways. He just seems very full of himself.
I love Lex and respect him. But like Rogan, sometimes he gives people too much benefit of the doubt. While I do think we should always try be in a place of love, compassion and empathy - sometimes bad people are just bad. There is no being charitable to Hasan because he isn’t charitable to anyone. He is a blowhard. Also Destiny isn’t just criticizing him because his opinions happen to line up with progressive ideology every time. He’s critical because Hasan never backs up these view points with original thought, or knows anything beyond the surface level. Hasan is 100% all emotion, and will make wild claims full force and won’t back down. He has full conviction for things he doesn’t even know are factual - which is the worst kind of political activist. This is why him and h3h3 get along so well. Ethan is the exact same person, so he ends up being a yes man to Hasan’s lunacy. They are a feedback loop. Shoot first ask questions later. Because they believe they are 100% right and anyone who disagrees is a bad person, you get situations where they constantly parrot talking points regardless if their actually correct. Hasan jumping to conclusions and pushing a talking point as if its fact regardless of the truth - is the very definition of bad faith. So while I love Lex, I don’t really know if his position here applies. The most charitable you can be about Hasan is that he’s a toddler who acts like an authority on all things politics, and throws tantrums to attack others for positions he doesn’t actually know are wrong.
A lot of people give others too much benefit of a doubt. Watching the Darrell Brooks trial, hearing all the victims on the stand thinking it was somehow their fault that Darrel killed those people. Even the guy that let Darrell into his house and made him a sandwich, who believed Darrell was just a homeless guy without shoes.
Destinys bitterness is so strong it’s hilarious. Not sure if it’s jealousy or what but saying shit like ‘hasan believe the correct positions but doesn’t know why” like damn bro what’s wrong with you
While I think Destiny is being a reductionist and overly harsh here, I don't think he's inherently wrong. IMO, Hasan does have pretty surface level takes and often presents them in very dismissive ways. Also, who knows, maybe Hasan IS the drama in the situation and doesn't like to be questioned, but it's likely both of them are to blame.
Destiny's narcissism and vitriol on full display, here. The dude needs to take up some meditation or something. Would absolutely love to see Lex interview Vaush. I think that would be a great convo.
wow you realise vaush and hasan have explicitly cut destiny off from conversation. And yet you think destiny is the one full of vitriol. Destiny would be more than happy to talk to both people.
@@jry0511 have you ever watched any of their conversations or are you just filled with vitriol yourself? Because I genuinely find it hard to believe you’d side against destiny in them
@@zak2659 I don't know anything about the Hasan drama other than what Destiny said. I have my own criticisms of Hasan. Destiny couldn't even express in the interview why he hates Vaush. Probably because he knows it's all petty.
Lex forcing the Devil's Advocate approach talking to this guy. Destiny is telling Lex straight up I don't respect Hasan because this, and Lex just saying "no you're wrong for feeling that because it's nOt lOvE".
Lex making huge moves. Gets Wolff in, follows it up with Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro and now Destiny. Genius play. If he can get Elon Musk and then follow it up with another Twitch political commentator, no timeline will be without this channel.
@@temoork-0197 he had the director of the nhs on to talk about Covid and the guy kept giving no answers and sort of dismissing all of the series subjects surrounding Covid and lex just let him get away with it . He’s grown a lot since then but it just was the last interview I watched with him until this clip and that’s why I said that but I’m a big fan of his and he does good work , just a small criticism
@@squabknob I don't know how much of a nerd you are, but if you're a big nerd like me then I highly recommend Lex's interview with John Carmack. It's such a nice listen.
Same but I learned about the beef from Destiny's videos mostly. Not a fan of the sports team mentality with content creators, I don't care who hates who I still watch their videos.
@@f8888gkcfyfgjfjhgjfcju absolutely. I think he was so spot on and said exactly what i think about Hasan. Just says whatever the left wing take is and no original take or insight of his own and not funny. I can kina see why lex pushed back on this, because maybe Hasan's views just genuinely happen to all align with the left but i think we all no that that isn't true and he's just regurgitating left wing jargon, but it wasn't necessary to but it did let Destiny back up what he was saying with examples and further prove and cement his point.
Lex doesn't understand that these streamers are solely driven by their ego, this is why they will do everything to be perceived by their audience in a good way
Full podcast episode: th-cam.com/video/bqeuFiAUU4o/w-d-xo.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: th-cam.com/users/lexfridman
Guest bio: Steven Bonnell, aka Destiny, is a progressive political commentator and a live streamer on TH-cam. Melina Goransson is a live streamer on Twitch.
Get Hassan on👍.
Hasan has been exceptionally dishonest unfortunately . Knowingly making false claims like how he started twitch politics . One of multiple clear n false claims.
Lex clearly has been too busy with real life and missed all the bread tube drama.
ya you need to get H(ass)an on and see if you can have normal conversation with him.
It appears to me to be a jealousy from Hasan towards Destiny and not the opposite as you have first thought mister Lex ;)
- From a non US muslim viewers
“I’m all about love. We’re going to get you to feel emotions.” said in a cold, emotionless tone.
It's like when ChatGPT goes into hippie super woke mode
Some people just aren't that expressive. I am autistic and you just don't have that capability to express with facial expressions.
Lex in a nutshell lol
He’s insufferable. How does he have fans?
I am 100% convinced that Lex never heard Hassan open his mouth once.
110%
MidWits stick together
@@gentlegiant7999 OoOoO projection
2000%
Yeah Hasan is quite possibly the most bad faith person I've ever seen. Worse than Cenk and Sam Seder which is impressive.
Love Lex becoming a little more assertive and pushing back with his guests these days.
There is a flaw in his thinking tho. Some people do shitty things and deserve being called out. Calling out the shitty things people do does NOT make you a bad person. This "equal" wrong doing/shared blame mentality is a fallacy.
Absolutely 💯
@@squeakypistonproductions2228 calling out also isn't grudge holding and hatred
@@sarasmith8037 Dislike of someones behavior/being critical is not grudge holding or hatred. Destiny willing to have discussions with hasan at any point.
@@squeakypistonproductions2228 he called him his sworn enemy
Lex is making the incorrect assumption that these twitch streamers are honest actors rather than cynical clout chasers
Vaush calls himself a sophist.
@@asimhussain8716 An anti-Vaush, anti-Hasan rant that's nothing but one emotion-driven assumption. Well done.
@@asimhussain8716 Well, someone's certainly cranky.
Yeah none really have any credentials on the topics they speak. They’re all just good at reciting Wikipedia facts and using their debate tactics and get pedestalized by their teenage audience.
@@bigollameoHow can anyone take those two seriously?
I love that Lex didn’t have anything bad to say about Hasan even though Hasan takes shots at Lex on the regular
There's literally no problem with that. Besides, i don't think Lex knows much about Hasan, but Hasan knows a lot about Lex.
@@brunoactis1104 I think Hassan thinks he knows a lot about Lex. Any rational thinker that has watched one of Hassan‘s stream will form the basic structure of conclusions about Hassan that destiny 100% correctly describes
@@brunoactis1104Hasan doesn’t know a lot about anything
@@Grandmas_Favorite he had a prejudice first due to esthetics but now I think Hasan sees the sincere part of Lex now.
This is where Lex annoys me, he’s toxically positive. There’s no thinking happening with Hassan at all
it´s adorable that Lex doesn´t understand how those so called "political streamers" function, but good for him. That´s definately not something you should waste your time with
For someone who doesn't engage with political streamers - how do they function?
@@hamzah654 Think of what a narcissist would do with a big platform and ignorant supporters that never want to see them apologize, only want to see them "win".
Vaush is the worst about this. His fans don't even need him to "win" anymore: they need him to "not lose". He's taken that to heart, which is why he can unapologetically tell a PhD holder that water in Mexico isn't H2O, because in Mexico they call it "aqua". I am not making that up.
He didn't win, but in the eyes of his ignorant fans, he didn't lose either.
@@williamking256 Your first sentence perfectly describes Trump LMAO
@@spyros4902 poor little dude still obsessing over Trump.
@@DB-sd3cw to be fair Vaush has his head up his own ass at least as half as far as trump does
Destiny says he doesn't create drama then says a phrase like sworn enemies. Cool conversation that just made me laugh really hard.
ive heard hasan describe the relationship the same way. doesnt mean either of them are creating drama its just a dramatic way to describe their relationship.
I mean it's Hasan and Vaush that don't want to talk to him in the first place, Destiny is always open to discussion. So yeah it was them that created the drama
I think his wording with "sworn enemies " is just the way he speaks, he's slightly exaggerating as to half joke his truths. He does it all the time.
@@jett6206 Nah Hasan is a pos outside of the politics. He’s a hypocrite, He spreads misinformation, bad faith ideas, ignorant/non critical thought. There is a lot wrong with Hasan and the content he makes.
destiny makes me cringe
The problem here is that Lex really just doesn't know the details on why these relationships fell apart. His heuristic is a fair one -that one shouldn't trust someones worst enemy to summarize their character- but its a complete nonstarter if your talking to that enemy. Destiny obviously believes he is justified in his view of Hasan and maybe he is, but Lex has good reason to be incredibly skeptical of everything Destiny has to say on that matter which just results in this circle of Lex saying Destiny should be more charitable and Destiny saying he has enough information to substantiate his view over and over.
Agreed.
he also apparently has no interest in vetting his guests. go look up "his destiny is autism"
@@Orville9999 oof, theres 5 minutes ill never get back
This is a really good comment.
Don't know destiny, it seems he has an ego problem. And seems to think he's more intelligent then he is.
Hassan, Destiny and Vaush on a camping trip.... that would be content.
Destiny (girls name) would literally die before the end of the first day outside.
Fr😂
Vaush brings the guns. Hasan brings the escorts. Destiny brings the drama.
We all know Vaush would bring the horses
Hopefully it would turn into a slasher film
The thing with Hasan is that if you get the chance that he speaks about something you're 100% informed on, you'll notice his takes are actually very surface level, sometimes not 100% true, and are simply being said with a tremendous amount of confidence, which gives people no room to doubt him.. This goes with what Destiny is saying here. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes you wonder how many people are actually aware of this.
It’s not even surface-level. Hasan is a complete dunce who understands literally nothing of what he talks about and doesn’t even have the IQ points to make-up the ground he refuses to cover.
I’d rather talk to a 1st grader trying to explain quantum physics to me, because at least then I can wave-away them talking utterly out of their ass, and they don’t want to murder innocent people.
You could say that about Lex and Destiny too
@@PsychedelicSocialist No you could not. I don't know much about Destiny, I always watched Hasan more, but just in Lex's interview I saw Destiny admit he didn't know much about X topic so he couldn't really comment more times than I even saw Hasan do. Hasan would never do that, he would give his take no matter how much he knew about it and say it with a straight face. And that doesn't apply to Lex at all. If there's something Lex does is ask questions because he admits he doesn't know everything.
I find Hasan is generally better on this than other liberal outlets and commentators on TH-cam like TYT and Secular Talk, your point stands.
@Jack Marcuson what do you mean?
Lex playing catch-up with bread tube drama
Soy Tube.
@@XoloYT Destiny is probably the most redeemable
@@pawneraser9022 I think Destiny is intentionally dishonest. Feels like any moment he could turn that part of him off but idk
@@ArimaSenne1 I think he is slow and stubborn with changing his views. But theres some geninuity to that. Vaush is a p*do apologist and Hasan is just a dude bro, your local lap dog for leftist political opinions
@@XoloYT I’d snap you in half you disrespect like that in person. You’ll see who is soy. Cpcksucker..
The problem with both parties, inside their own and with each other, is that they take disagreement as personal affronts. Get out of your feelings, disagree, and go back to being friends. It's really that simple but people don't seem to grasp that these days.
Have they ever?
The problem here is that Lex really just doesn't know the details on why these relationships fell apart. His heuristic is a fair one -that one shouldn't trust someones worst enemy to summarize their character- but its a complete nonstarter if your talking to that enemy. Destiny obviously believes he is justified in his view of Hasan and maybe he is, but Lex has good reason to be incredibly skeptical of everything Destiny has to say on that matter which just results in this circle of Lex saying Destiny should be more charitable and Destiny saying he has enough information to substantiate his view over and over.
@@colamity_5000 I wasn't talking about Lex v Destiny really. More just commenting on why mainstream leftist streamers seem to hate each other when they probably agree on 90+% of stuff. But yeah I agree with your point also.
Its worse than that. Destiny is really smart and he likes to use it as a cudgel against others meanwhile hasan just adopts woke rhetoric. Both are shit but for different reasons.
@@squeakypistonproductions2228 Oh, no. I just read your comment in another thread and thought to myself "Wow, well said. Maybe this guy gets it"". And then you had to leave this remarkably stupid comment. You're 1 for 1 - I believe in you
Lex drove me crazy a couple times in this podcast but i do appreciate his character development in becoming more assertive.
You mean his programmers' tweaks to the algorithm
Honestly having Hasan on the podcast would be SUPER fuckin interesting. Lex tapping into the TH-camr political sphere is intriguing.
Hasan and his chat were trash-talking Lex on stream not so long ago.
@@punkxxt So? That doesn’t mean Hasan wouldn’t want to talk to Lex and tell him his criticisms in person.
@@IPatricio nobody is saying he wouldn’t talk to him but if someone trashes you why even engage with them? Also, if someone trashed me out of nowhere then wants to talk with would seem so two-faced. Critiquing is a different story.
@@Skullfire56 Only sensitive people would consider what Hasan says about Lex trash talking. He’s criticizing Lex and Lex’s fans can’t take it so they call it trash talking. If Lex is truly the intellectual people portray him to be then he would have no problem engaging in a conversation with someone like Hasan with opposing views.
@@IPatricio Hasan is a fan of Lex. He praises and criticizes Lex.
6:20 "The 'gotchu' is a surface of an iceberg, and there's a deep ocean beneathe it you yourself have not explored" XD
I liked how much lex pushed back on this. He's encapsulated a lot my thoughts on all the drama between these streamers
"yeah but what if ur like wrong" I wouldn't call that pushing back. I'd call it lazy and annoying.
It's not even about political differences, Hasan is just an extremely shallow thinker, about literally everything.
He has no positive affect on the culture of any realm, whatsoever.
@@ttt69420 I don't have gripes with the idea that hasan is a shallow thinker. What bothers me is that Destiny will proclaim to be super rational and good faith, but his content is riddled with a need to react to drama in a pretty volatile way. Saying shit like "we're sworn enemies" and "I hate them"; all it does is add fuel to the fire and lead to a never-ending cycle of bridge-burning and superficial drama shit shows.
Its annoying, it's petty and destiny's smart enough to know better than to let himself get dragged into all of it
@@localkauf Agreed. I don't particularly like destiny either. Nor do I like the "political debate" sphere in general. But, there's no denying that hasan is most definitely on a significantly lower level of consciousness than Destiny, which makes it impossible to respect him. And I can only see Lex pushing back like this because he's never actually watched Hasan.
@@ttt69420 tbf if your bar for respecting someone is being atleast as or more intelligent than destiny, then that's a pretty high bar, then I can't think you respect many people!
But in all seriousness, I get your point.
I still don't think hasan deserves the hate he receives from destiny. Its just not productive in any way
@@ttt69420 In what way is hasan a shallow thinker? I see destiny fans say that ALL THE TIME (not calling u a destiny fan specifically) and I just don’t understand it. I feel like he breaks down things pretty well whenever I listen to him, and I listen to destiny as well who also makes a lot of good points.
Narcissism is a hell of a drug.
You think Lex is a narcissist?
@@couldyou4745 no but destiny clearly is though
@@jakethesnake3439 I want what you’re smoking.
@@nw4529 not his bull crap like you are
The man reeks of narcissism
@@beastythunder English pls
It would be nice if Lex were as frank and willing to criticize other guests.
He did it because he knew Destiny can handle and appreciates criticism. He couldn't do it to Shapiro because Shapiro's ego and mind would fall apart instantly.
"Call you out on your bullshit" sounds frank to me, especially when he's telling that to a mentally unstable person lol
@@ToDDHeaDD Did you even watch
@@tylerhoover8144 Yes I did. Why are you asking?
@@ToDDHeaDD I thought he criticized Ben plenty
Hassan is Pop Politics for teens imo
Teens win elections the midterms are proof. People are tired of old people like destiny
@@Joe-xm3uc What a disaster if teens think like you joe
@@vanyakalinka8305 don't worry about us grandpa, we are ready to fix your fuck ups
@@Joe-xm3uc I never understood this mentality. Do you not realize sooner or later (much sooner than you anticipate) you will be an "old" person? Do you think you will be less wise or more wise then?
@@wolverine005 old people ruin everything. I hope no one listens to me when my brain starts rotting.
I hate it when people tell me to love more. What is that about?
Oh. I see what you did there.
Maybe its me, but the whole "I'm all about love" has worn super thin. Most respectable scholars, *deep* thinkers, innovators, they don't talk like a young girl's stuffed animal.
For real! I'm glad other people are having a problem with like myself. Lex is obviously intelligent, but him pushing this "love" thing on to all of his guests to the point where he dismisses their own feelings because he feels they aren't genuine according to his own worldview. It's very cringe.
Personally I dig it. Too much drama going on otherwise for my taste. You've got to act on first principles and love is the first principle of action
its kind of refreshing in the current climate. i think we need a couple people using that to challenge people.
@@jett6206 Maybe Lex can get his crush Joe Rogan to join him in a bed-in at a swanky hotel to push for peace amongst streamers and podcasters the same way John Lennon and Yoko Ono did back in the 60's?
@@morniclegreen3534 if we are talking the streamers and influencer scene the most "loving" thing you can do is criticize them a whole lot more than they are currently, way too many are exploiting their fanbase, and pushing frauds.
I was on the same StarCraft team as Destiny back in the day. Hosted show matches with him and stuff. Has been really interesting to kind of watch his entire evolution from a sorta 3rd person view. From conservative leaning gamer to progressive political streamer over the course of 10 years. He’s always been an intelligent guy IMO, I can appreciate that he doesn’t virtue signal or pander so I’m willing to watch even when I disagree.
remember when he died on the hill of 'i should be allowe to call people faggots', lol
So far i haven`t gotten the impression that he is intelligent from the clips i`ve seen so far LOL
@@atlemartoresonfjeldstad4557 He was a grandmaster in Starcraft which is one of the hardest games to be high ranked in the world. I think it’s possible for someone to have takes that you disagree with but also still be intelligent.
@@ChosenPlaysYT yea i used to be normie right winger in 2016 after watching destiny and learning from him and flaws of the right wing he brought me to the left, not super dumb left like hassan vaush but a nice position, i disagree w destiny on guns but everything else 90%we agree on!
@@ChosenPlaysYT what the fuck does being good at an RTS have to do with intelligence?
"Shallow engagement"...yeah, I definitely agree that's the Hasan I've seen too much of the time.
Hearing Destiny say that he thinks he is not ideologically driven honestly explains a lot. Like everyone is ideologically driven, it shows he is not very introspective about his own beliefs and why he holds them
High school mean girls and their silly dramas
Lex should get Hasan on for balance. Hasan has been quite mean about Lex in the past.
He should ask him why he won't fight Sam Hyde
@@fvckgoo9le242 the fighting thing is kind of stupid though right? If debates were all ended by fisticuffs society would be doomed because gym bros would be running the planet on their very limited brain cells.
@@fvckgoo9le242 Did you see his kicks? We all know why.
Hasan has watched a few clips of Lex and shits on him. lol. Both Destiny and Hasan are toxic shitheads. That's why they thrived on Twitch.
Hasan does not hold any actual belifs..
The problem with Destiny, Hasan and Vaush is that they all seem to be in a state of emotional arressted development and haven't matured much past teenage. Although in fairness I think Destiny might legitimately be on the spectrum. I've a vague recollection of Destiny saying that he was on the spectrum in a video.
Someone pin this comment.
It would surprise me if Vaush *isn't* on the spectrum
@@fergalcussen Vaush has talked about it and confirmed that he’s on that spectrum
You seem to be butthurt about destiny lol
Sometimes people like to use the spectrum as an excuse to be unwilling to grow.
These bots are out of control dude
Oh good, a real comment. I thought I was the only real person here for a second.
Doesn't it make you want to buy amc38t?
I am terrified -_-
we must destroy them all
Seriously, wtf is going on?
Great interview, nice to see lex start to grow into his role and push guests even further.
Wish he would have been more like this towards kanye...
@@schneeekind most people called lex a jew and said he followed the agenda because he pushed back lol
I'm only 40 seconds in, I saw Destiny say that "Hasan put's in a lot of work" and I immedately stopped watching, Hasan entire streams are him "reacting" to other people's videos, he plays videos made by someone else , makes bottom of the barrel commentary and then watches another video, he doesn't even look up for what videos watch himself he watches what his audience tells him, imagine if as some tard streaming himself watching TV. Destiny is a narcissist or sociopath (don't know in which category to put him, just a dude with no emotions,compulsive liar and manipulative) that for some weird reason a lot of people believe he is intelligent, he will contradict himself constantly and uses debate tactics all the time on top of lies, he will never clarify his position and constantly obfuscates as a way of confusing people so they will end up agreeing with him, just a waste of time.
It's a good example of how you don't need to know anything or be anyone to make it as a political commentator, you just need to say the right things and people will listen to you, my personal theory is that people listen to people like Destiny because he plays vidyagames like them, is into internet culture like them, and the people watching him are too stupid to actually do something like listening to someone who is an expert or reading a book, it's similar to night political comedy shows that cover the news, all the audience are tards because those are the only people who will watch such thing, why would anyone care about the opinion of someone like Destiny, much less give him money? You need to be a complete wheelchair symbol.
It's funny that you said that considering that since Lex, in 2024, did zero pushback against Tucker Carlson at all.
I’ve seen a bunch of clips of Lex and it’s clear he “dumbs himself down” to make his guest feel more comfortable. It’s nice to see him embrace his intelligence more than he usually does
I think he’s dealing with someone he doesn’t take very seriously, so he’s goofing around. He’s not taking it too seriously because for him it’s all online drama. At least that’s how it comes across.
@@herzeleid9525 he watches destinys stream, i see lex comment there. I think that's why he's more comfortable being more critical.
He definitely dumbed himself down for the Kanye interview. His only rebuttal was 'stop it or you'll create holocaust 2'.
Hahahah that’s hilarious. Lex is always running at maximum capacity - which isn’t very high
@@ralphronald6296 I think you're mistaken. Lex is the one wearing a suit.
we definitely need them to go camping together and livestream the entire thing
As someone who has liked all 3 at the same time despite their individual hatred for one another, I do think this would be awesome lol
This would be absolutely golden god tier content
I like how Lex admittedly knows little about the beef and seems to think he can come in and be the peacemaker here.
Sometimes you need to look at things from the outside to solve things
@@leanio8740But to solve things you need to also understand what's going on.
After years in the online politics space, Destiny is basically the only worthwhile voice out there. I was a Vaush viewer for years, but he’s just agonizing to listen to lately. He’s incredibly arrogant, bad faith, and refuses to do any research at all.
As someone who watches Hasan, Destiny and Vaush I really appreciated Lex’s pushback here to really talk more about the issues between them all. However I read the Manga and know they all team up in the final arc.
Holy cringe
My sympathies
Hasan is one of the dumbest and most evil people to curse the internet. I too hate Hasan. I’m honestly not a hateful person either.
Hasan is the only person on the internet I genuinely despise..
Destiny is so bitter about Hasan, it's insane he feels natural displaying it on the internet
Destiny is a debater, and Hasan is a media dude. Not comparable.
They both ghey
Except Hasan masquerades as a debater and pretends to be better and smarter than everyone else without ever having those tough conversations.
The Hitchens brothers would like a word with you
@@robertswitzer990 Both are debaters and can never fly a TV show long enough.
Hasan is a dude who knows nothing and comments on some articles and watches videos, that's hardly a media person. Gives the most vanilla opinion or most hc leftist position when it comes to politics and hardly feels the need to argument his opinion more than max one sentence. Feels a lot like not caring and gatering. He is just a basic streamer minus games, branding himself as someone who knows something about anything. He is a reactor if anything, the most lazy content.
Lex forcing destiny into these contrived kumbaya moments is insufferable lol
I hate contrived kumbaya... but with Lex it feels authentic to me. Of course you don't know me so I'm not sure why you should care, but maybe I just want you to consider that sometimes kumbaya can be kind of an authentic thing as well?
Lex cannot get over the idea that some people simply cannot get along. He's kind of annoying.
but... but... what about love? I'm sure if we all held hands and skipped through enchanted fields of poppys and Daisys and shared yummy delicious cookies with each other then we could all be friends and hug one another the way my bubbie used to hug me when I was a little boychik. 😂
He’s a great facilitator of conversation and asks great questions. But, he loses me on this “love” stuff. When he says it, I just imagine he is high af. There was multiple episodes where he just goes on a long tangent of “love”. Maybe he is in a better place then me (he probably is) but the love stuff completely loses me.
I think that especially with these overly inflammatory streamer dramas it's kinda refreshing to have someone come from outside and be like 'hey are you sure that you guys are mortal enemies and all that stuff?'
I don’t think Destiny and Ben Shapiro would ever get along, but it’s kinda ridiculous how much these three hate each other when they’re so similar. Lex is just being the adult in the room here, seeing how childish all this drama is
Would be interesting if Lex talked with Vaush.
Oh god dude lol.
Destiny is so right about Hasan lol you could easily make an algorithm to spit out possible answers for Hasan to make on any situation😂
Hasan is popular because social media wants him to be. I couldn't tell you why other than the fact he regurgitates everything they want him to say dumber than most other lefties could. He got into "politics" via his uncle, then he just kept doing that, stream of consciousness, mainstream talking points with zero critical thought and continuous "bro" and "literally". He got awards very early on in his career that propelled him. He's legit stupid. He's probably around 85 iq. But he's tall and physically attractive. That's all it takes. Nearly every other left wing "commentator" or "creator" or "debater" is more competent and more intelligent.
Lol nahhhh
I've never really liked Hasan's commentary but couldn't quite articulate why and I think Destiny explains it pretty well here. I also find most his "reaction" videos just him eating food and going "what? Dude that's crazy"
@@samboyaus “in a capitalist society”😅
@@joshibrahim1537 Tell us one thing that Hasan has ever said, that hasn't already been upvoted to the top of r/politics. Everything Hasan says is an unoriginal thought, and I'm honestly not sure if he is capable of thought.
I think Destiny, Vaush, and Hassan are closer politically than they think....
Lex is such a great host. His responses aren’t just timely, they’re well spoken and truly inquisitive. He doesn’t waste any time. So many podcasts act as a fluff piece for celebrities. Not his. He exposes the human within his guests. It’s refreshing.
He was terrible in my opinion, did not prepare properly, choose boring topics and was very disrespectfull
I'd actually like to see Lex critique Hasan too. Make these dudes sit in a room and hash it out
It’s a battle of ideas not about cock fighting. Grow up
@@xuantungnguyen9719 I don't want them to fight wtf. I mean hash out their differences. Grow up
I don't think he'd want to outright agree with Destiny and criticize him before he's given him a chance to come on his podcast and get his perspective first. But tbh I'm not really interested in seeing them hash it out, they're both political commentators but fill different niches
@@reasonabledictator8993 what's your obsession with these dudes? Can' they just be different? Isn't that the whole point of their existence, being different so they can have their own army of minions? Any grown up would know better than giving a shit about what these dudes think. Destiny can talk himself into being a cuck, what else do you need to listen from him? Find something better to do with your life.
@@xuantungnguyen9719 I'm interested in different view points. Just so happens destiny has some good takes on things. I enjoy opposing view points in political discussions. Them being more tolerant will result in their communities not living in an echo chamber. It also results in opposing communities being able to formulate their own beliefs better. This isn't just a Destiny/Hasan thing. It's bigger than that. I think you could do way better than the back handed comments and trying to demonize me for enjoying good conversation. I could care less for his relationship choices also I have no clue why that's relevant
Say the line!
'Neoliberalism is non-ideological'
*Zizek erupts in laughter*
Man I was just thinking this, it was almost too on the nose hahaha
Every day he is, uh, eating from the trash can, of unknown knowns
EWW Vaush is literally the most slimey character on social media.
Destiny brought him up.
I think a lot of these lefty streamer guys are so smart they are dumb. Vaush is a rich socialist who doesn't redistribute his money but wants to have politicians do that to the average working person. Destiny moved from cali to Florida because he"felt" like he wasn't getting any thing out of paying his high taxes but still supports high taxes if he would just get what he pays for... Turns out giving lots of money to politicians doesn't mean they are trusting or effective with it.
There is a strong sexual tension between Hasan and destiny
Not a fan of this destiny guy, but he’s damn right about Hasan
Hasan is really popular and making money. He flashes a lot of cool cars. Listening to him and seing his demeanor, I cant stand the dude.
Is it hasan or the policies he supports? Because it's very difficult to say I hate all socialism therefore I dislike Hasan vs saying I dislike his understanding of socialism and his pseudo way of pushing it.
I dislike Hasan, because of a number of reasons. He’s very much inflammatory and opposed to the opposite political side,
He and his community both condemn and wish death upon anyone that disagrees with him.
His community uses horrible language against people on the right, and Hasan is fine with it .
Hasan used to do “bro code” videos. Some pretty sexist dumb shit , and he acts like he’s above everyone else who has more misogynistic views . (I’m by no means a misogynist but just hate hypocrites)
He’s just a misinformed far leftist who has no idea what he’s actually talking about and has managed to gain a huge following , and never takes the time to really look into things he disagrees with. His ideology is dangerous, and millions of people watch his content and agree with him. People like this are a plague on society .
I love many of his stream buddies , but hate seeing them agreeing with his political stances .
In short he’s one of the internets biggest hypocrites, right after his buddy Ethan Klein .
@@elliottbetancourt6914 What pseudo way?
@@elliottbetancourt6914 As somebody who is a Bernie supporter, Hasan is just obnoxious to me. He just come off as a douche, and I think he's mostly just surface level takes.
Destiny can sound incredibly switched on but also like a moody teenager. Imagine being in your 30’s and still having sworn enemies.
Seriously he's so arrogant. He will win the argument but everyone in the room will hate him after.
People should see Destiny as a warning not to be perpetually online.
I can’t imagine anybody wanting to grow up to be that guy.. just perpetually a 13 year old.
Once a debate lord, always a debate lord.
He's obviously saying it semi-jokingly. He also said that he'd welcome Vaush or Hasan back in if they wanted. These people rejected him first and it is they who refuse to talk to him.
tbh he did help hasan only to get backstabbed, that shit hurts
I would love to see this more assertive Lex talk to Vaush
Inb4 Vaush talks about horsecock clip
Imagine getting stuck next to this dude at a dinner party…
Yeah it would be great!
it would be awesome
Right! Just the goofy ass suite is bad enough.
It would horrible. Hearing his robot monotone voice the whole time. What a bore it would be
This is confusing. Lex is speaking to Destiny like a Dad who's giving his kid friend advice. "Just hug it out, Bud." But Destiny is literally telling him, "I'm good, I don't have beef." Lex is telling Destiny to listen, but Lex isn't listening to him. Destiny has major patience lol.
Crazy that’s how you interpreted it. I saw destiny as being stubborn and saying one thing but practicing another
yeah that's not how it seemed to me
@@StepmaniaFreek Nothing to interpret Lex has no fkn idea what he's talking about within this subject.
@@maxpowers4436 I'm on the side of Destiny is being overly harsh here, at least early on in the discussion. But yea Lex doesn't even know anything about the situation.
Destiny and his followers are those people that think they are “different “ for being in the middle.
he is still right about Hassan though.
Enlightened centrists that are completely flabbergasted by someone having consistent ideological backbone. “Omg you always know what hasan will say” Yes ok? And? Lmao
@@williambjork2777 yeah 👍. Destiny thinks he's amazing because he criticizes his ideological equals more than his ideological opponents. He has no loyalty and creates a lot of infighting/drama for no reason. It honestly feels like he is helping fascists more than liberals just in a roundabout way.
The dude has trust issues. Imo most of the left should ignore him/ not trust him because of how he acts.
Destiny have never said anything that makes you think or makes you go "oh that Destiny guy got some really good ideas and original thoughts"
Because you have listened to everything Destiny has said.
The same thing can be said for Hasan, he's the definition of an echo-chamber.
None of these political streamers have anything of actual value to contribute and if you think otherwise you are part of the problem, I also assume you do since you directly attacked Destiny most likely having the position that Hasan is right in most things, or Vaush.
@@jonteguy Well I agree. They all sound like a echo chamber. The same talking points and opinions all the time, nothing new or original. I myself think they like other streamers with similiar political views, only was useful to shill for the democratic party, then they stopped being useful, even becoming banned from Twitch
Eh I liked his take that blaming the mainstream media is stupid bc its just an echo of what people are really craving/want. Maybe not the most original thing I have EVER heard but def not common.
@@jonteguy they aren't supposed to be great philosophical thinkers. They talk and about news and give their opinion and most people understand that. Vaush and destiny do like to make it appear they're doing more through debates and whatnot but atleast from what I've seen hasan just accepts he's a content creator
You are probably underrating him. He is a good left wing commentator, and he is pretty fair. He has gone against the standard talking points and he actually does have real conversations with almost anybody who asks, including drop ins.
If you have any sort of working knowledge of that sphere, you would know how much different people like Hassan and Vaush actually are, when compared to Destiny. I actually think Lex did not do enough research in this regard. It would honestly be like comparing Donald Trump to Mitt Romney. the only thing they really have in common is that they are standing on the same side of the river.
Lex should invite Hasan and vaush
16 minutes of Destiny (girls name) being gaslit by a cringe love guru because reasons
I'm starting to notice lex pushing back on the guest, but way too hard like he's a therapist or something. I'm really not liking how he's acting like he's on some moral high ground now. I always thought of his channel as more of documenting people's beliefs and experiences than a channel where he tries to convince the guest of some truth.
The fact that he said he’s not ideologically driven shows he’s reached a level of insanity unbeknownst to humankind up to this point. His whole moral and political platform is based of his atheistic liberal premises which is in of itself an ideological starting point
Conversation with Vaush would be interesting.
Destiney is a high school girl stuck in a gay mans body.
As a self identifying American “leftist” who has NEVER participated in online discourse surrounding my politics, this was fascinating to hear. Just from a surface level, as somebody completely unfamiliar with Destiny and Hasan, I would love to hear how familiar Destiny is with actual leftist theory i.e: the works of Marx, Engels, the Frankfurt school, Satre, and to a lesser extent Guevara, Zedong, and Stalin. Because I think the personal, self referential approach he takes to leftism is completely antithetical to the IDEA of leftism.
Exactly!!
Lol, destiny knows vastly more about these theories than you do, which is why he barely respects them, your comment is embarrasing
He isn't a socialist or communists he believes in capitalism and liberal democracy
Destiny is a contrarian lib like bill mahar. Hasan is an actual marxist political scientist doing agit prop on influencer spaces
@Jinja Not really. Leftists hold Mao and Stalin in high regard. You must not visit leftist channels often.
It's a testament to Lex's heart that he can even look for the good in Hasan.
it's funny because hasan started watching the video of lex and kanye's interview and almost immediately began unfairly shitting on lex. i turned it off immediately
He's far better than you. You aren't even intelligent.
Exactly the comment I was looking for to like
@@mrcrowe1848 im usually understanding of most people. But Hasan has a special place of hate in my heart
Hes just burying his head in the sand on this one
Lex is starting to be like anti-Rogan, actually pushing back on people and asking questions that are genuinely important instead of just going "woah"
what do u mean? Rogan got where he is because of his ability to push and question his guests, its what makes his podcast good. Take the dick out of your mouth, the cum is dripping.
@@Gnarwolf Rogan is literally known as the opposite. I don't like lex or Rogan. But your last little bitch fit there is a bit ironic
His transformation will only be complete when he can twist how every subject has nothing to do with dmt
@@primitive.notions4789 or until he convinces everyone that dmt is made from cat litter
This vid actually made me not want to watch lex anymor
Why is Lex wanting Destiny to be all buddy buddy with Hasan and Vaush of all people? Why does he need to put in more effort with them than anyone else that are prominent political figures?
Lex is living in a fantasy world where we all can love each other and bake each other cookies and hold hands and skip through fields of beautiful flowers 😂 No but for real he's really naive.
Yup, a little creepy.
@@FutilityOfReason Is it so bad to want people to come together. I'm friends with people who have much further political divides than than the ones between destiny, vaush and hasan and it's still love at the end of the day. You guys are too obsessed with drama and egging on spectacles for no reason.
Because these streamers act like the middle schoolers that watch them. The shit they fight about is so ridiculous.
@@gardenerzh0ngbase173 some people are genuinely bad people. Hasan is one of them. I love Lex and want people to get along but people who operate in such bad faith like Hasan and Cenk and people like that are so far beyond redemption and don't deserve a 500th chance.
Wait till the Candy Man gets a load of this
That load'll be dripping straight out of him, lad
I don't agree with everything Lex says, but as a new viewer I appreciate the respect he shows people. He does that while also challenging their narrative.
I'm really glad to hear Lex pushing back. I think Destiny probably doesn't understand the emotions driving him.
Lex doesn't know what Hasan and Vaudh are like. And guilting Destiny to be charitable is misguided. Hasan and Vaush are truly despicable humans that deserve no sympathy. I do hope they change but they are too successful for their own good.
Na Lex is wrong, Destiny’s right on everything he said about Hasan
@@skateboard446 A lot of what he's saying is based on value judgments rather than information,
so right and wrong become subjective. Maybe you're being facetious though..
@@sarasmith8037 watch a bit of Hasan and then come back. Let's see how your opinion would change
@@sarasmith8037 Hasan is a clown
I don't think Lex understands the Hasan / Destiny Arc, he's over estimating his EQ here. When will Lex interview Hasan?
destiny is clever. feel like if you were going to crush him in a debate you'd probably have to tap into that lack of self honesty he has.
Yeah, he is slimy. He is such a chameleon.
i think this is the only time i’ve been irked by the niceness
No you're not because tHaTs nOt lOvE 😂🤣 now let Lex tell you how you really feel!
I think it’s because Lex isn’t really taking it very seriously.
Yeah Lex was insufferable in this.
I felt this immediately as well.
@@NelsonMandela961 he comes off as having a god complex in this video, the cutting off, the pushing back compared to other guests kinda speaks to how spineless he is. A man isn't how strong he is based of his feats but how he treats those he perceives beneath him. Glad kayne pushed his hairline back
Lex is spot on picking up on Destiny's resentment and deep seeded anger
I think people are a bit too quick to praise Lex on pushing back. It looks like the only reason Lex pushes back here is because he sees himself as an almighty love guru that can make the world better if he makes his guests say nice things about their enemies.
This isn't pushing back for the conversation's sake... this is for Lex's childish desires to make everybody think in candy land terms like he does.
Sorry Lex, I think your ego snuck in thru the backdoor and took you over
I agree. Lex sounded like a delusional kindergarten teacher through this whole clip. Very strange but I think you nailed the reasoning behind it.
I don't watch Hasan or Destiny, but i spend too much time on the internet and Lex felt like a grandfather here.
Giga Chad 500 IQ take
I’d have to agree as well
I think it's more the fact that he's only now tapping into the political streamer bubble and if you don't keep up with their petty drama it just straight up sounds childish as all hell to hear a grown ass man call another grown ass man his "sworn enemy".
Which is personally a term I haven't heard since my elementary school days lmao
All of the drama and hate the political streamers share for each other is obviously emotionally driven and childish as hell
This was a really annoying clip. It's obnoxious and arbitrary when criticism is pathologized. Lex was interrupting and dissecting too much. Destiny being critical isn't inherently a bad thing. Focus on truth and understanding rather than forced positivity and trying to hamfist every conversation into sugar coating. "Charitable" interpretations are not necessary and some people force it way too hard. It's arbitrary. We should have space to speak, where all participants prioritize empathy and collaboration.
It feels like lex is putting all the blame on destiny. Lex needs to learn that both people play a part in a situation like this.
Destiny communicates like an intelligent middle school boy.
probably cuz he's a gamer
The one thing I really dislike about lex is when he pushes back for no reason, like destiny dislikes Hasan and has clear reasons why, yet lex keeps pushing him into thinking he’s wrong for that. It’s perfectly human to hold grudges and lex just comes off as robotic trying to make everyone all peace and love all the time.
Lex had destiny so flustered with all the Hasan pushback, love it lol
Lex is very simple in his pushbacks, yet very effective. Lex barely needs to talk.
Can’t wait for Lex and John Tron
if only lex knew what hasan thinks of lex. he has mentioned many times in his streams before that Lex is a "dumb guy's smart guy". and he didnt mean that in a positive way. I do find it ironic that in the way lex tried to give hasan a free take, pushing back against destiny; even though Lex has never met hassan before, Hassan would never return that same gesture. Hasan has very strong opinions, even more so if hes never met you, immediately goes for the negative take if your opinion doesnt even remotely align to his ideology.
without context, watching this, you'd assume that destiny might be overreaching, and that he is being petty/impartial against this guy called hassan. But once you watch hassan's streams, and give it a fair chance. you kind of understand wat destiny is kind of saying. you come to the conclusion, how is there +25k people still watching this guy's stuff +12 hours a day. I could barely get through it. I've been listening for a long while, tuning in now and then. and hassan's opinions on so many things are soo bad. And its not that his opinion is the problem, but his take on deconstructing and defending his opinion is so shallow and nonexistent. there not even thought out well. its straight up mudslinging with no coherent thought of self-introspection on his take. i dont think hassan even takes the time to stop, take a step back, and look over analyze what he just said and think it through. I truly believe, he has a set of people he follows, and whenever those peopel make an opinionated piece, he just copies, follows it, and regurgitate it.
Yes it is really funny that Lex is trying so hard to defend Hasan when he is known for being as incendiary and toxic commentator if not even more sometimes than Destiny. Just shows Lex doesn't know much at all about Hasan.
Hasan has countless times made comments for example of how republicans are incestuous and laughing that they are fat etc.
And easily goes to hateful unhinged rants about others if he gets agitated enough.
That’s actually not true I’ve heard Hasan several times just recently giving Lex big props and praise for being a great and important interviewer. I think he referred to him as “a Band-Aid for humanity”.. it was actually quite endearing
@@ComradeFromRhody401 you haven't seen much of Hasan then.
@@ComradeFromRhody401 you legit havent seen much of hassan then. He has literally insulted lex in multiple occasions.
@@ComradeFromRhody401 Take this for example: th-cam.com/video/hgKqWGY8YOQ/w-d-xo.html . I saw this stream live and before this he was saying he has no idea who Lex is yet had no problem insulting him in front of more than 30 thousand viewers while allowing his chat to do the same. So hypocritical when he fosters this hate-bullying community yet whenever someone criticises him he starts going ballistic and plays the victim. He also hates when chat critiques him.
You can tell destiny is holding a grudge against hasan.
If you think he's the one holding a grudge, you don't know Hasan, lol.
This is great. Can't wait to see the whole discussion.
It was released 2 days ago th-cam.com/video/bqeuFiAUU4o/w-d-xo.html
It's so funny he says he's not ideological. I try my hardest not to be ideological, but I have to admit that I am definitely ideologically driven in many ways. He just seems very full of himself.
I agree with you 100%. People who say they have no ideology are like people who say they have no accent haha
I love Lex and respect him. But like Rogan, sometimes he gives people too much benefit of the doubt. While I do think we should always try be in a place of love, compassion and empathy - sometimes bad people are just bad.
There is no being charitable to Hasan because he isn’t charitable to anyone. He is a blowhard. Also Destiny isn’t just criticizing him because his opinions happen to line up with progressive ideology every time. He’s critical because Hasan never backs up these view points with original thought, or knows anything beyond the surface level.
Hasan is 100% all emotion, and will make wild claims full force and won’t back down. He has full conviction for things he doesn’t even know are factual - which is the worst kind of political activist. This is why him and h3h3 get along so well.
Ethan is the exact same person, so he ends up being a yes man to Hasan’s lunacy. They are a feedback loop. Shoot first ask questions later. Because they believe they are 100% right and anyone who disagrees is a bad person, you get situations where they constantly parrot talking points regardless if their actually correct.
Hasan jumping to conclusions and pushing a talking point as if its fact regardless of the truth - is the very definition of bad faith. So while I love Lex, I don’t really know if his position here applies. The most charitable you can be about Hasan is that he’s a toddler who acts like an authority on all things politics, and throws tantrums to attack others for positions he doesn’t actually know are wrong.
A lot of people give others too much benefit of a doubt. Watching the Darrell Brooks trial, hearing all the victims on the stand thinking it was somehow their fault that Darrel killed those people. Even the guy that let Darrell into his house and made him a sandwich, who believed Darrell was just a homeless guy without shoes.
That guy on the right looks like he’s never taken a shower in his life
Destinys bitterness is so strong it’s hilarious. Not sure if it’s jealousy or what but saying shit like ‘hasan believe the correct positions but doesn’t know why” like damn bro what’s wrong with you
While I think Destiny is being a reductionist and overly harsh here, I don't think he's inherently wrong. IMO, Hasan does have pretty surface level takes and often presents them in very dismissive ways. Also, who knows, maybe Hasan IS the drama in the situation and doesn't like to be questioned, but it's likely both of them are to blame.
Finally talking about the important issues
Destiny's narcissism and vitriol on full display, here. The dude needs to take up some meditation or something.
Would absolutely love to see Lex interview Vaush. I think that would be a great convo.
wow you realise vaush and hasan have explicitly cut destiny off from conversation. And yet you think destiny is the one full of vitriol. Destiny would be more than happy to talk to both people.
@@zak2659 Cutting the toxic people from your life has nothing to do with vitriol.
@@jry0511 have you ever watched any of their conversations or are you just filled with vitriol yourself? Because I genuinely find it hard to believe you’d side against destiny in them
vaush is a clown.
@@zak2659 I don't know anything about the Hasan drama other than what Destiny said. I have my own criticisms of Hasan. Destiny couldn't even express in the interview why he hates Vaush. Probably because he knows it's all petty.
Lex forcing the Devil's Advocate approach talking to this guy. Destiny is telling Lex straight up I don't respect Hasan because this, and Lex just saying "no you're wrong for feeling that because it's nOt lOvE".
It's a little odd but entertaining.
@@johnv5156 Maybe as entertaining as a guy in a straight jacket claiming to be Jesus Christ reborn.
@@FutilityOfReason that's pretty entertaining
To be fair, destiny is pretty cynical towards people that should be closer to "his side".
Yeah that's why I don't watch Destiny a lot. The dude has trust issues or something
Lex could have handled that better. The guy answers him reasonably and lex keeps saying " isn't that cynical of u ".... not lex it's not.
Lex has obviously never listened to Hasan before
9:30 brokeback mountain, but threeway?! 😂
Lex making huge moves. Gets Wolff in, follows it up with Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro and now Destiny. Genius play. If he can get Elon Musk and then follow it up with another Twitch political commentator, no timeline will be without this channel.
He's had Elon on like 3 times now lol.
Sorry Wolff is a hack
@@cguy2guy511 why
Destiny a huge move? Lol
@@microsoftpain I love how you say that and omit Kanye which is what’s given the pod international recognition.
the things lex choses to push back on and things he just lets go is comical
Yea this is my first time seeing that lol
Could you Elaborate or give an example?
@@temoork-0197 he had the director of the nhs on to talk about Covid and the guy kept giving no answers and sort of dismissing all of the series subjects surrounding Covid and lex just let him get away with it . He’s grown a lot since then but it just was the last interview I watched with him until this clip and that’s why I said that but I’m a big fan of his and he does good work , just a small criticism
@@squabknob I don't know how much of a nerd you are, but if you're a big nerd like me then I highly recommend Lex's interview with John Carmack. It's such a nice listen.
@@CockatooDude I’m more of a music nerd and not really smart enough to be a science nerd but it kind of just depends on the subject I’ll check it out
There's something really funny to me about how much knowledge Lex Fridman has of debate bro lore
Yo it’s wild, I’ve been listening to all 3 of these dudes for YEARS now & never knew there was any beef.
If you listened to Hasan unironically, I can understand that you didn't notice.
Same but I learned about the beef from Destiny's videos mostly. Not a fan of the sports team mentality with content creators, I don't care who hates who I still watch their videos.
finally someone letting destiny know he is cynical af. Lex is the best
@@f8888gkcfyfgjfjhgjfcju absolutely. I think he was so spot on and said exactly what i think about Hasan. Just says whatever the left wing take is and no original take or insight of his own and not funny. I can kina see why lex pushed back on this, because maybe Hasan's views just genuinely happen to all align with the left but i think we all no that that isn't true and he's just regurgitating left wing jargon, but it wasn't necessary to but it did let Destiny back up what he was saying with examples and further prove and cement his point.
Destiny has a lot of Adderall streaming through his veins at all times
Why do Twitch streamers have the amount of charisma as my cat sleeping?
Destiny is banned off Twitch LOL
@Wiezzler That's not an answer lol.
Lex doesn't understand that these streamers are solely driven by their ego, this is why they will do everything to be perceived by their audience in a good way
Lex, my boy you are hitting the algorithm hard.