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The whole "Stealth Vision" (I believe it was Assassins Creeds Eagle Vision that first made it popular) is something I try to avoid during playthroughs because of this. I enjoy the aspect of older titles where I may sneak into a room or lock pick a door to suddenly see a NPC is stood there or walks near the door. It makes you feel you are an infiltrator - that you aren't meant to be there and it's more rewarding in my opinion. This video made me think of David Hego's comments on Batman Arkham Aslyum's Detective vision. He said that he "wanted to cry a little bit" as he heard some people played that game entirely in that mode. "It was a gameplay decision to make detective vision so strong...we're going to try not to do that mistake again."
Yep. Detective Vision was another tool players just gravitated towards because it gave all the answers. On a narrative level, it made sense that Batman would be armed with such a tool, but they should've added a battery mechanism or something to it to ensure it wasn't switched on all the time. I still lean into doors when playing the old Thief games to listen out for guards. The way sound was used in that game was masterful; incomplete bursts of information that gave players what they needed to know about who--or what--was nearby.
Surprised that you found the dark vision in Dishonored 2 to be similarly overpowered as in 1. The significantly nerfed range and pulse/ping rhythm to it got me to kick my dark vision addiction that the first game enabled. One thing that I did find useful, and risky, about D2's dark vision is the visual display of sounds. I would often use it to familiarize myself with how big the radius for a thrown bottle (or body) might be, with the obvious risk being that you have to make the sound to see how far it travels. Though I probably didn't need dark vision to tell me that falling elevators are incredibly loud lol
Yeah, the reduced range and radar pulse had no effect on my playstyle. I maybe slowed things down and evaluated the space I was in a bit more, so I guess it could be described as 'better', but it still gives players all the answers. Foresight makes me hope that Dark Vision gets ousted completely, should they do a sequel or remake the first two games at some point.
Btw, I just found an interesting 2d side scrolling Stealth Platformer the other day. It's kind of like "Mark of the Ninja" meets "Super Mario". Its called "Sneaky Ninja", by Starfall Studios. Its supposedly coming out this year... Though, they have trailers saying its coming out as far back as 2016.
After a bunch of playthroughs, I kinda just forgot dark vision existed. Most of dishonored takes place in open areas, so it's really not necessary. Not using dark vision then creates a contrast between open areas where you can see the guards, and indoor closed areas where you are using your ears more and looking through keyholes, not really knowing where all the guards are
I think darkvision could also work if it had a constant magic drain or something like the cloak and dagger from Team Fortress 2, where it rapidly drains magic when moving. That way you could camp somewhere safe, get a general idea of where guards/loot is, but you can't just walk through the game with it on all the time. Maybe having it also generate some sort of noise whenever active that guards close to you will hear and investigate would work. This would basically turn it into an organic version of checkpoint markers, where you use it to get an idea for where you need to go, but without breaking the difficulty and immersion. In general though the problem with dishonored is that the magic is way to overpowered, and trying to stealth through the games feels like you are deliberately hobbling yourself rather than playing the game 'properly'. Even as someone who likes sneaking, it was more satisfying most of the time to blink around laying springrazors and summon hoards of rats
I agree Dark Vision needed a downside to using it, aside from the visual headache. Dishonored has a lot of interlocking mechanisms to it and magic gives players access to more of them, so I wouldn't say the magic is overpowered generally; powers have pros and cons to using them, usually tied to how stealthy or non-lethal players want to be. Choosing to restrain yourself and not use some of the tools at your disposal is perfectly legit. Speedrunners do it all the time, so I think it's OK for stealth-focused players to do the same!
Ooh a new Stealth Doc vid, so soon too. You're spoiling me... Spoil me more lol. Love these vids on stealth design. They're helping me come up with ideas for a game I want to try making.
I get that these sorts of things are put in to make the games more accessible (the latest Hitman trilogy is another example), but I wish the games were designed in a way to not rely on them and have the option of switching them off, along with an incentive to do so. Maybe limiting the end of level rank/score. I'd imagine there'd be a fair bit of design work to be done to ensure the game plays well both with and without the x-ray abilities though.
To be fair, Dishonored 2 does offer players the chance to refuse the Outsider's Mark. Similarly, you can just avoid upgrading and using your powers in Dishonored (mostly; there's one section where you have to use blink). It makes for a very different experience when playing through them, so I'd recommend you give that a try if you haven't already!
@@StealthDocs Will give that a go! I do like going through these sorts of games with self-imposed restrictions like this (I still maintain that using silenced tranq guns in the MGS games is basically cheating!), but always wary of whether or not the game will fall apart as it's being played in a way it may not have been designed. Good to hear it still stands up though! Thanks for the detailed response!
Foresight is the best thing ever, because I can actually figure out what's happening and where to flee before all hell breaks lose. I don't need to choke all guards in a building anymore, I can just STEALTH around them! It'd be great if it was backported into the first two games.
I really think X-ray vision is one of the things that hurted stealth games the most during these last 10-15 years. So I entirely agree with you, tools and powers allowing players to see through walls must have severe limitation and risks in return. And they feel way better to use when they are integrated into gameplay elements like using thermal vision allowing the player to see through doors or thin walls in a limited range, or by freezing the player as in DOTO, or by giving tools like tracking devices to launch on NPCs and then see them on a map. These last years I've seen a lot of players discovering the Hitman series with the new trilogy and it saddened me how much they were using the X-ray vision, the game was more often in black and white than in colors on their screen. And seeing them playing like that ruins all the tension that stealth games are supposed to have and bring to the player. When I discovered the Hitman series in the early 2000s watching everywhere and being careful after each step were and still are what I love the most in stealth games. That tension is one of the main element keys that make stealth games great and fun. So X-ray vision ruins all of that and doesn't help new players to experience what stealth is really about and how challenging and unique it can be compared to other genres. And to me the marking mechanic is also part of this problem but in a lesser extent, I never use them either and I wished marked enemies and objects are only visible when using a superpower or a gadget, not all the time like they are in modern stealth games. Anyway I understand that stealth genre is quite dying so developers have to appeal to casual players with this kind of tools in order to sell games, but that's sad and I hope to see someday the stealth genre really going back to its roots and teaching players about tension and how to get and find information through interesting, limited and well thought gameplay mechanics and tools.
I don't think the stealth genre is dying, it's just evolving. Part of that evolution is in making 'smart' design choices that engage players in the loop of gathering information and taking action based on that information. If you haven't already, I suggest trying Alien: Isolation! The tracker tool in that game is a great example of a smart design choice. It gives you the means to quickly gather information, but precision is dependent on proximity; the more accurate the tracker is, the closer you're going to be to a potential threat! Also: the tracker makes noise, which can't be heard from far away, but up close... You might have to put it down and focus on hiding for a bit. Great mechanism.
@@StealthDocs I'm not saying stealth genre is dying because of its intrinsic nature, I think this genre still has a lot of potential to offer and developers haven't barely touched it. This genre has been casualized and ignored during these last 10/15 years, its evolution has been highly slowed down and in some ways it even regressed with the apparition of X-ray vision, detection meter, markers, easy forgiving AI and more. The integration of basic stealth mechanics in mainstream games like Assassin's Creed, Batman Arkham, Uncharted and other ones during the PS3/360 generation hurt a lot the stealth genre (even if I love some of these franchises). It made stealth becoming a component of other bigger genres instead of continuing to evolve on its own path, and then some publishers tried to appeal to this huge audience and this is why we ended up with games like Hitman Absolution, Splinter Cell Conviction & Blacklist and Thief 4 that betrayed their respective roots and didn't please original fans. In my opinion it would take a lot of effort, investment and intelligence to "resurrect" the stealth genre and make it at least as popular and strong as it was in the early 2000s, but sadly publishers don't want to invest money in a genre like stealth because it's very risky. But i still think it is possible and making smart design choices as you suggest definitely is a way to come back to the roots of this genre and make it evolve the right way. And then making these design choices more complex, more organic and including them in large open maps is for me the way to go, alongside with modernizing the AI by giving it new and more credible and more challenging reactions. I tried Alien Isolation, its atmosphere is amazing and feeling vulnerable brings a welcoming tension to the gameplay. Sadly I stopped playing it because of its lack of ergonomics on PC, its numerous mini-games that I didn't really like and found boring, its level design forcing us to make a lot of back-and-forths and its save system. But I agree with you on the tracker tool, it gives you information on the alien but it's limited, has a disadvantage and most importantly it's integrated into a physical and realistic tool you have in the game and not through a weird wallhack vision that has no logical reason to exist. Developers should think more about implementing type of gameplay mechanics like that, it would benefit to the games, to the genre and please stealth players.
This seems to have the same problem that the Arkham Games had, all though my issue with X-Ray Vision in Dishonored is to hide how lacking the stealth system in the games actually are. You need the X-Ray Vision because the games themselves barely if at all give you any feedback on if you are hidden or not. I do think Metal Gear Solid 4 at least with Act 1 and 2 handled X-Ray Vision well with the Solid Eye. The Solid Eye gives you X-Ray Vision or at least highlights enemies but you can only do it for a short time. You have to use it carefully and the Naomi tracking mission recontextualizes this mechanic very well where you may have used it as a crutch but now enemies can hear the Solid Eye when the player is using it and they will attack the player if it's overused so you have study the environment while sparingly using the Solid Eye. Ugh, if only MGS4 was designed like how it was in Act 1 and 2, it could've been a really good or at least good game if it did.
@@StealthDocs Not just remasters but sequels as well. Those two powers are phenomenal and if you have the black bonecharms that allow you an extra displace marker and one extra bar of energy you can chain a sequence of fast, precise movements in enemy territory just by using foresight. they're fantastic powers.
First time watcher here! your video came at the perfect time! i just finished no x-ray playthrough yesterday of d1 And i tell you, the game became instantly better the moment i stopped, With it, the game was just too easy And too distracting making me use it every second. It could've been improved if it had A shorter time, Longer cooldown/bigger mana usage (i still think cooldown works better with this game than mana system), Less blinding filter, And maybe make some sound that may attract npcs when activating, Also some bonecharms to give some improvements to keyholes like faster animation. Anyway, I think i wrote too much. Just wanted to say Great video for such new channel, Just hope you get to the point faster in next videos and stop repeating the same point over and over again. Subscribed!
Coincidentally i just reinstalled the first 2 dishonored games on my PC to give them a go, and upon reflection I dont think I actually used Dark Vision that much. I found it took away from the game and made things too easy. In fact i dont think it was until my 2nd playthrough of Dishonored 1 that i even picked it up and even then i felt it was a weak power. During Dishonored 2, I feel it's more of the same, and I'd rather use my runes for something else. I haven't played Death of the Outsider yet, in fact I know very little, but that Foresight ability...now that intrigues me.
I'm sure I'll be talking about Aragami 2 at some point! I tend not to push reviews out around release, though; I'm more of a patient observer than a reviewer. Looking forward to playing it, for sure.
I find it fine with darkvision. I also do think it's OP. I do believe there is a happy medium though cause some game give you zero information and to me it's not fun to open the first door in a mission where I believed there was no enemies only to be misguided or mislead and straight up have to restart it all again only to have the same mistake behind door nr 2.
Low key like never used dark vision on my 2nd playthrough of 1&2 because of the ugly sepia filter (and only used a little on playthrough 1). Foresight though? I used it quite often as a handy tool.
D:DotO is not third part, but an expansion/DLC - same as 6 Daud missions for Dishonored 1. Problem I see with all X-Ray visions combined with loot picking is that - Devs are forcing you to abuse it since else you wont' find probably more that 50% of total loot.
I know it was marketed as an expansion to D2, but it became a piece of standalone content mid-development (though I take the point that without playing D2 people might have a tough time figuring out what's going on). I treat it as a third game, since the systems, powers, story and main character are new. The loot-picking factor is definitely a problem, but at least with Foresight the onus was on the player to be an attentive 'scout' and find valuables. Personally, I think leaving loot unmarked by x-ray powers is a braver choice
@@StealthDocs DotO is half-length - first mission is very short, then it's only 4 missions - while Both D1 and D2 had 9 mission. And both Daud DLCs had toital of 6 missions. Bethesda probably decided to sell DotO standalone to get more money and to sell more D2 copies. I really dislike fact that loot is highlighted - it means that devs made a game keeping in mind that x-ray will be overused, in fact punishing players that do not do that. It is possible to do a game with loot and without x-ray = eg. old Thief games, including T3:DS, where normal players could find 80-95% on highest difficulty level, without checking every corner
Another annoying part of Dark Vision in 1st Dishonored aside of how it changes the colors is how you hear this ENCHANSED EYES whisper a million time during a mission Thank you for the video! It was great Also what are the games at 0:11 and 0:29?
I've played all the Dishonored games, but honestly I can't recall ever using any of the x-ray visions much at all, I don't really know why. I guess they were just kinda boring compared to the rest of the abilities at hand.
For me it was very much about carefully and methodically disassembling the system, so Dark Vision played into that mindset. Every piece of loot and enemy highlighted was just too much of a tempter to refuse, but I think your approach to use more interesting powers/gadgets is a lot healthier!
Darkvision exists in Dishonored 1 because the developers didn't bother with creating proper sound mechanics. Sound isn't used to convey information to the player like in Thief. Sound design only exists for aesthetics. So, they added a cheat to let players get that information actively. Same thing is done with many modern games with stealth in them. The new Deus Ex games include a minimap that shows enemy locations, and third person cover mechanics that let the player see beyond corners without being exposed. But the most hilarous shortcut was taken by The Last of Us, which literally visualizes the sound that enemies should have been designed to produce and convey to the player, but never were.
The tools stealth games use lately have typically given players all the information they need rather than 'enough' information for them to make tense decisions. It would be nice to see a return to sound-based mechanisms, but clearly that's a tough ask and not always possible with time/budget constraints.
@@StealthDocs Half of the system in Thief exists even in games that don't use it for any gameplay purposes. Outer Worlds has very rudimentary stealth and sound mechanics for gameplay, but it has the same node graph based sound propagation as Thief has. Sound travels to the player the loudest through the easiest route. To make that into a feedback system for the player, all you need to do is rebalance the audio so it's... audible.
Stealth games are my favourite game gender but,in my opinion,Stealth games shouldn't have x-ray vision because it gives unfair advantage against the enemies.
Dark vision/ X-ray vision I guess is a tool made for a casual gamer. Many stealth games are known for being hard and that was studios safety card for trying to sell AAA game. Remember that in old stealth games player usually can make mistake only once, and once the alarm is up everything is hell. Those not used to getting caught might get discouraged... even refund the game, maybe. Or maybe it was to help roleplaying the game for the first time? People play stealth games masterfully when they get to know mechanics and level designs BUT that takes time. New games might sometimes confuse people at first and at the same time punish them hard for any mistakes. We play as some kind of an assassin or elite soldier, master thief etc. without being one ourselves. Having so much information and control over any situation feel empowering. Feel safe and kind of "in character" because of that power. I love stealth games, or even those nowadays rpg games with stealth elements. But I grow kind of tired of x-ray and even minimap sometimes. I just wish studios would make sound systems for gathering information, just like in first thief games. It doesn't clutter anything, is intuitive and immersive... creeping around mansions, just listening for footsteps, small talks, mumbling, tired breaths od yawns. :( just give us that back, we don't have to have everything pointed out to us. I say it as an adult, experienced gamer with developed taste for games and experiences in them. But that kind of neglects kids, that might just get into gaming, and also disabled gamers which need help :/ So as long as anything is optional and can be disabled in menu, I'm content.
I think in the case of Dishonored, you're more predator than prey, so the idea of Dark Vision works in the narrative sense, even though I've argued the execution could be better. A lot of mileage depends on the player. I, for instance, have a compulsion to collect every piece of loot and neutralise every enemy without being detected, if possible, so naturally I gravitated towards x-ray vision. To Dishonored's credit, you can turn off or opt out of almost every power/HUD element; I wish objective markers had been switched off by default. The point on sound design is well taken. All stealth games need tools and x-ray vision/radar is a legitimate design choice, though it obviously wouldn't go over well in games like Thief where the player is just a very talented sneaky person and sound plays a huge role in that experience. I just think in terms of player engagement, a lot of x-ray vision could be better executed. For example, the 'radar' tool in Alien: Isolation is phenomenally good, because it gives you an idea of how close the enemy is without being specific and its rhythmic pulse sound effects add to the atmosphere of the game. The tech fits within the scope of the narrative, too.
Doesn't magic automatically recharge only on the easier modes? I thought there was a harder mode in which it didn't automatically recharge... To me that would also be a way to "fix" Dark Vision, making it less overpowered...
Gameplay is taken from hardest difficulty in all 3. There's an extra difficulty level in the Dishonored DLC called "Master Assassin" which cranks up AI and you can die in one hit, but I've not played through that difficulty so couldn't say how it deals with magic recharging.
The truth is, enemy marking and any forms of x-ray visions should never even be allowed in true stealth games. They rob the player of suspense of the unknown which is a key ingredient of the hide n seek or hunting mechanics.
Good essay. Unfortunately game devs learned absolutely nothing from this game and use the same lazy boring overpowered wall-hack vision (thats how i call it) that everyone else uses because gamers in modern times dont need to think... In order to make this mechanic less broken they should add a steep energy cost, a low duration or a severe movement penalty so that people only use it sparingly to get oriented a bit. Gamers nowadays are so lazy that they need so many hand-holdy mechanics. Heck most of them dont even use the map anymore. Wall hack vision should have been a minor mechanic that simply aids the player a little bit, not something to be turned on for 90% of the game. This problem was created by the devs for making it such a low hanging fruit with very low costs of use that people naturally took to it like kids to ice cream. Worst thing is that in most games you can;t even turn it off in the options. It's a shame. I really like the games in which using the wall hack vision slows down the character to a crawl, making the mechanic only useful in safe locations, but even so it's OP.
I never even buy this power when i am playing the game, it isn't necessary and it's kind of a waste of runes, especially in DIshonored 2 when powers are more expensive. I acutally disagree that D2's vision is more overpowerd, on its own is actually worse because, it's a pulsing radar and i think that the range is also smaller. It's only stronger when you upgrade it, but other powers are much more interesting.
Keyholes are not as good as Dark Vision, from a game design perspective. If you look through a keyhole, and there is nobody there, is that because there is nobody there, or because someone was just "out of camera" from the keyhole? If the latter, and he jumps on you when you exit, then that is punishing the player for something the player had no control over. One of the keys of stealth games is that everything _should_ be in a careful player's control, they should be able to acquire perfect knowledge of how to disarm a situation, and keyholes are not a good enough tool for that.
I mean, if players burst through doors without being careful, they deserve to get spotted, right? Dishonored and its sequels put guards and enemies at 'lookout' positions where they can spot players quickly, but also give players every chance to spot them first IF they're careful and regardless of whether or not they're using Dark Vision. Looking through keyholes, peeking around corners/obstacles is always handy and enemies make noises. Dark Vision being an easier tool to use to gather information doesn't make it interesting, which is really the point I'm driving at. It works very well, but it's not an interesting tool to use. That keyholes aren't as 'good' is exactly what makes them better from a perspective of player engagement, IMO.
@@StealthDocs But if a guard is out of the bounds at which you can see them, then you aren't "not being careful," you just have no way of having the information. You either burst through the door, and have an RNG chance of getting caught, or you never burst through the door, making that door useless. Only by knowing what's on the other side of the door can you make an intelligent decision on the matter. It's a "Schrodinger's guard." I can agree that Dark Vision isn't especially "interesting," I just think that the _value_ it provides is better than _not_ having it. I agree that the foresight thing is _more_ interesting, although probably slows things down considerably to have to scout in and out of an area at every turn (I didn't play the DLC).
@@timogul The only value Dark Vision provides players is in the time it saves them from having to learn how to use sound, sight and other information-gathering tools. Switch it on, see everything. If that's something people appreciate, I can't really argue with that and I don't think I try to in the video. The point is that, to me, the tool makes information-gathering dull. It looks ugly. It detracts from other, riskier and more limited (and therefore more interesting) tools players can use to understand and navigate the game space. There are ways in which it could be better. Dishonored: DotO, in my opinon, fixed a lot that was missing with Dark Vision in that regard. I think you've proven my point because you're so reliant on Dark Vision as a tool that you've never bothered to learn all the signifiers Dishonored gives players to indicate enemies are nearby, or the techniques players can use to minimise the risk of being detected. And why would you? X-ray vision, like you said, gives you knowledge rather than hints at what's lurking on the other side of a door. Or a wall. Or a building. Again: there's nothing wrong with this; it's clearly the intent of the design. Dark Vision works. I just thought it could be better and I'm glad someone at Arkane Studios thought the same thing. :)
@@StealthDocs I don't know. I tend to be a slow, methodical player. I tend to take much longer to clear out a stage that involves stealth as an option than what I gather the average player does, because I spend time sneaking around and scoping out the scene, taking out enemies in the way that least risks complications. Even so, I welcome things that save me time, because time is limited. Sounds can be a good tool, primarily to perk your ears that you should be looking around for enemies, but unless you have good positional audio devices you can't rely on it for accurate positioning. Sight works great, so long as you can get eyes on the target, which isn't always the case when there are barriers or you need to make blind leaps to enter a space. It depends on level design by the developers, to make sure that players have access to clear sight-lines to any place an enemy *might* be. That's doable, but not automatic. Another nice thing about Dark Vision is how it makes enemies easier to see, even without obstructions. Seeing dark enemies against dark walls, in a shadow, can be extremely difficult unless you cheat the gamut settings, have a_really_ good monitor, or really good nightvision yourself. A special vision mode gives the _player_ access to the _character's_ special skills at detecting enemies. I don't disagree that the DLC's changed version can be more interesting, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't prefer "vanilla" in this case, and to find my _fun_ in other parts of the experience.
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The whole "Stealth Vision" (I believe it was Assassins Creeds Eagle Vision that first made it popular) is something I try to avoid during playthroughs because of this.
I enjoy the aspect of older titles where I may sneak into a room or lock pick a door to suddenly see a NPC is stood there or walks near the door. It makes you feel you are an infiltrator - that you aren't meant to be there and it's more rewarding in my opinion.
This video made me think of David Hego's comments on Batman Arkham Aslyum's Detective vision. He said that he "wanted to cry a little bit" as he heard some people played that game entirely in that mode.
"It was a gameplay decision to make detective vision so strong...we're going to try not to do that mistake again."
Yep. Detective Vision was another tool players just gravitated towards because it gave all the answers. On a narrative level, it made sense that Batman would be armed with such a tool, but they should've added a battery mechanism or something to it to ensure it wasn't switched on all the time.
I still lean into doors when playing the old Thief games to listen out for guards. The way sound was used in that game was masterful; incomplete bursts of information that gave players what they needed to know about who--or what--was nearby.
6 years later, i still get eyegasm looking at dishonored 2.
This is why i replayed dishonored 2 with no powers and a ghost and no kill run.
Surprised that you found the dark vision in Dishonored 2 to be similarly overpowered as in 1. The significantly nerfed range and pulse/ping rhythm to it got me to kick my dark vision addiction that the first game enabled. One thing that I did find useful, and risky, about D2's dark vision is the visual display of sounds. I would often use it to familiarize myself with how big the radius for a thrown bottle (or body) might be, with the obvious risk being that you have to make the sound to see how far it travels. Though I probably didn't need dark vision to tell me that falling elevators are incredibly loud lol
Yeah, the reduced range and radar pulse had no effect on my playstyle. I maybe slowed things down and evaluated the space I was in a bit more, so I guess it could be described as 'better', but it still gives players all the answers. Foresight makes me hope that Dark Vision gets ousted completely, should they do a sequel or remake the first two games at some point.
@@StealthDocs here's hoping if Deathloop has anything comparable it's more like Foresight and less like Dark Vision or a Psychoscope 2.0
Btw, I just found an interesting 2d side scrolling Stealth Platformer the other day. It's kind of like "Mark of the Ninja" meets "Super Mario".
Its called "Sneaky Ninja", by Starfall Studios. Its supposedly coming out this year... Though, they have trailers saying its coming out as far back as 2016.
After a bunch of playthroughs, I kinda just forgot dark vision existed. Most of dishonored takes place in open areas, so it's really not necessary. Not using dark vision then creates a contrast between open areas where you can see the guards, and indoor closed areas where you are using your ears more and looking through keyholes, not really knowing where all the guards are
I think darkvision could also work if it had a constant magic drain or something like the cloak and dagger from Team Fortress 2, where it rapidly drains magic when moving. That way you could camp somewhere safe, get a general idea of where guards/loot is, but you can't just walk through the game with it on all the time. Maybe having it also generate some sort of noise whenever active that guards close to you will hear and investigate would work. This would basically turn it into an organic version of checkpoint markers, where you use it to get an idea for where you need to go, but without breaking the difficulty and immersion.
In general though the problem with dishonored is that the magic is way to overpowered, and trying to stealth through the games feels like you are deliberately hobbling yourself rather than playing the game 'properly'. Even as someone who likes sneaking, it was more satisfying most of the time to blink around laying springrazors and summon hoards of rats
I agree Dark Vision needed a downside to using it, aside from the visual headache.
Dishonored has a lot of interlocking mechanisms to it and magic gives players access to more of them, so I wouldn't say the magic is overpowered generally; powers have pros and cons to using them, usually tied to how stealthy or non-lethal players want to be. Choosing to restrain yourself and not use some of the tools at your disposal is perfectly legit. Speedrunners do it all the time, so I think it's OK for stealth-focused players to do the same!
Ooh a new Stealth Doc vid, so soon too. You're spoiling me...
Spoil me more lol. Love these vids on stealth design. They're helping me come up with ideas for a game I want to try making.
Enjoy it, next one won't be out for at least two years. Gotta keep subscribers on their toes.
@@StealthDocs NOOOOoooOOooOooooOOoOoOoooo... The knife is twisted. You just stealth killed me....
Meanie... lol.
:D
I get that these sorts of things are put in to make the games more accessible (the latest Hitman trilogy is another example), but I wish the games were designed in a way to not rely on them and have the option of switching them off, along with an incentive to do so. Maybe limiting the end of level rank/score.
I'd imagine there'd be a fair bit of design work to be done to ensure the game plays well both with and without the x-ray abilities though.
To be fair, Dishonored 2 does offer players the chance to refuse the Outsider's Mark. Similarly, you can just avoid upgrading and using your powers in Dishonored (mostly; there's one section where you have to use blink). It makes for a very different experience when playing through them, so I'd recommend you give that a try if you haven't already!
@@StealthDocs Will give that a go! I do like going through these sorts of games with self-imposed restrictions like this (I still maintain that using silenced tranq guns in the MGS games is basically cheating!), but always wary of whether or not the game will fall apart as it's being played in a way it may not have been designed.
Good to hear it still stands up though! Thanks for the detailed response!
Foresight is the best thing ever, because I can actually figure out what's happening and where to flee before all hell breaks lose. I don't need to choke all guards in a building anymore, I can just STEALTH around them!
It'd be great if it was backported into the first two games.
I really think X-ray vision is one of the things that hurted stealth games the most during these last 10-15 years. So I entirely agree with you, tools and powers allowing players to see through walls must have severe limitation and risks in return. And they feel way better to use when they are integrated into gameplay elements like using thermal vision allowing the player to see through doors or thin walls in a limited range, or by freezing the player as in DOTO, or by giving tools like tracking devices to launch on NPCs and then see them on a map.
These last years I've seen a lot of players discovering the Hitman series with the new trilogy and it saddened me how much they were using the X-ray vision, the game was more often in black and white than in colors on their screen. And seeing them playing like that ruins all the tension that stealth games are supposed to have and bring to the player. When I discovered the Hitman series in the early 2000s watching everywhere and being careful after each step were and still are what I love the most in stealth games. That tension is one of the main element keys that make stealth games great and fun. So X-ray vision ruins all of that and doesn't help new players to experience what stealth is really about and how challenging and unique it can be compared to other genres. And to me the marking mechanic is also part of this problem but in a lesser extent, I never use them either and I wished marked enemies and objects are only visible when using a superpower or a gadget, not all the time like they are in modern stealth games.
Anyway I understand that stealth genre is quite dying so developers have to appeal to casual players with this kind of tools in order to sell games, but that's sad and I hope to see someday the stealth genre really going back to its roots and teaching players about tension and how to get and find information through interesting, limited and well thought gameplay mechanics and tools.
I don't think the stealth genre is dying, it's just evolving. Part of that evolution is in making 'smart' design choices that engage players in the loop of gathering information and taking action based on that information.
If you haven't already, I suggest trying Alien: Isolation! The tracker tool in that game is a great example of a smart design choice. It gives you the means to quickly gather information, but precision is dependent on proximity; the more accurate the tracker is, the closer you're going to be to a potential threat! Also: the tracker makes noise, which can't be heard from far away, but up close... You might have to put it down and focus on hiding for a bit. Great mechanism.
@@StealthDocs I'm not saying stealth genre is dying because of its intrinsic nature, I think this genre still has a lot of potential to offer and developers haven't barely touched it.
This genre has been casualized and ignored during these last 10/15 years, its evolution has been highly slowed down and in some ways it even regressed with the apparition of X-ray vision, detection meter, markers, easy forgiving AI and more. The integration of basic stealth mechanics in mainstream games like Assassin's Creed, Batman Arkham, Uncharted and other ones during the PS3/360 generation hurt a lot the stealth genre (even if I love some of these franchises). It made stealth becoming a component of other bigger genres instead of continuing to evolve on its own path, and then some publishers tried to appeal to this huge audience and this is why we ended up with games like Hitman Absolution, Splinter Cell Conviction & Blacklist and Thief 4 that betrayed their respective roots and didn't please original fans. In my opinion it would take a lot of effort, investment and intelligence to "resurrect" the stealth genre and make it at least as popular and strong as it was in the early 2000s, but sadly publishers don't want to invest money in a genre like stealth because it's very risky. But i still think it is possible and making smart design choices as you suggest definitely is a way to come back to the roots of this genre and make it evolve the right way. And then making these design choices more complex, more organic and including them in large open maps is for me the way to go, alongside with modernizing the AI by giving it new and more credible and more challenging reactions.
I tried Alien Isolation, its atmosphere is amazing and feeling vulnerable brings a welcoming tension to the gameplay. Sadly I stopped playing it because of its lack of ergonomics on PC, its numerous mini-games that I didn't really like and found boring, its level design forcing us to make a lot of back-and-forths and its save system. But I agree with you on the tracker tool, it gives you information on the alien but it's limited, has a disadvantage and most importantly it's integrated into a physical and realistic tool you have in the game and not through a weird wallhack vision that has no logical reason to exist. Developers should think more about implementing type of gameplay mechanics like that, it would benefit to the games, to the genre and please stealth players.
I just started playing Dishonored 2 for the first time and it’s been a great experience thus far so I’m happy to see a video on it :)
This seems to have the same problem that the Arkham Games had, all though my issue with X-Ray Vision in Dishonored is to hide how lacking the stealth system in the games actually are. You need the X-Ray Vision because the games themselves barely if at all give you any feedback on if you are hidden or not.
I do think Metal Gear Solid 4 at least with Act 1 and 2 handled X-Ray Vision well with the Solid Eye. The Solid Eye gives you X-Ray Vision or at least highlights enemies but you can only do it for a short time. You have to use it carefully and the Naomi tracking mission recontextualizes this mechanic very well where you may have used it as a crutch but now enemies can hear the Solid Eye when the player is using it and they will attack the player if it's overused so you have study the environment while sparingly using the Solid Eye.
Ugh, if only MGS4 was designed like how it was in Act 1 and 2, it could've been a really good or at least good game if it did.
Thanks for the vid
love me some stealth fame analysis! doto is absolutely underrated, love it so much. subscribed, keep up the good work
Foresight and Displace are my favorite powers in the Dishonored universe. They ooze tactical purpose and strategic use.
Hoping they'll add them to 1&2 if they ever 'remaster' those games, but a sequel would also be nice.
@@StealthDocs Not just remasters but sequels as well. Those two powers are phenomenal and if you have the black bonecharms that allow you an extra displace marker and one extra bar of energy you can chain a sequence of fast, precise movements in enemy territory just by using foresight. they're fantastic powers.
First time watcher here! your video came at the perfect time! i just finished no x-ray playthrough yesterday of d1 And i tell you, the game became instantly better the moment i stopped, With it, the game was just too easy And too distracting making me use it every second. It could've been improved if it had A shorter time, Longer cooldown/bigger mana usage (i still think cooldown works better with this game than mana system), Less blinding filter, And maybe make some sound that may attract npcs when activating, Also some bonecharms to give some improvements to keyholes like faster animation. Anyway, I think i wrote too much. Just wanted to say Great video for such new channel, Just hope you get to the point faster in next videos and stop repeating the same point over and over again. Subscribed!
Glad you enjoyed! Haha, I try to shore up my arguments a lot. That's kind of a running theme in my work, but will try to be more concise in future. :)
Coincidentally i just reinstalled the first 2 dishonored games on my PC to give them a go, and upon reflection I dont think I actually used Dark Vision that much. I found it took away from the game and made things too easy. In fact i dont think it was until my 2nd playthrough of Dishonored 1 that i even picked it up and even then i felt it was a weak power. During Dishonored 2, I feel it's more of the same, and I'd rather use my runes for something else.
I haven't played Death of the Outsider yet, in fact I know very little, but that Foresight ability...now that intrigues me.
Are you going to cover Aragami 2 when it comes out? Stealth game releases are so far and few in-between
I'm sure I'll be talking about Aragami 2 at some point! I tend not to push reviews out around release, though; I'm more of a patient observer than a reviewer. Looking forward to playing it, for sure.
I find it fine with darkvision. I also do think it's OP. I do believe there is a happy medium though cause some game give you zero information and to me it's not fun to open the first door in a mission where I believed there was no enemies only to be misguided or mislead and straight up have to restart it all again only to have the same mistake behind door nr 2.
Low key like never used dark vision on my 2nd playthrough of 1&2 because of the ugly sepia filter (and only used a little on playthrough 1). Foresight though? I used it quite often as a handy tool.
I love that Foresight constrained its visual effects to the information-gathering phase. So much more elegant as a tool.
D:DotO is not third part, but an expansion/DLC - same as 6 Daud missions for Dishonored 1.
Problem I see with all X-Ray visions combined with loot picking is that - Devs are forcing you to abuse it since else you wont' find probably more that 50% of total loot.
I know it was marketed as an expansion to D2, but it became a piece of standalone content mid-development (though I take the point that without playing D2 people might have a tough time figuring out what's going on). I treat it as a third game, since the systems, powers, story and main character are new.
The loot-picking factor is definitely a problem, but at least with Foresight the onus was on the player to be an attentive 'scout' and find valuables. Personally, I think leaving loot unmarked by x-ray powers is a braver choice
@@StealthDocs DotO is half-length - first mission is very short, then it's only 4 missions - while Both D1 and D2 had 9 mission. And both Daud DLCs had toital of 6 missions.
Bethesda probably decided to sell DotO standalone to get more money and to sell more D2 copies.
I really dislike fact that loot is highlighted - it means that devs made a game keeping in mind that x-ray will be overused, in fact punishing players that do not do that.
It is possible to do a game with loot and without x-ray = eg. old Thief games, including T3:DS, where normal players could find 80-95% on highest difficulty level, without checking every corner
Another annoying part of Dark Vision in 1st Dishonored aside of how it changes the colors is how you hear this ENCHANSED EYES whisper a million time during a mission
Thank you for the video! It was great
Also what are the games at 0:11 and 0:29?
You're welcome!
Those would be Sir/Madam You Are Being Hunted and The Equinox Hunt. Both are excellent for different reasons, imo
I've played all the Dishonored games, but honestly I can't recall ever using any of the x-ray visions much at all, I don't really know why. I guess they were just kinda boring compared to the rest of the abilities at hand.
For me it was very much about carefully and methodically disassembling the system, so Dark Vision played into that mindset. Every piece of loot and enemy highlighted was just too much of a tempter to refuse, but I think your approach to use more interesting powers/gadgets is a lot healthier!
Darkvision exists in Dishonored 1 because the developers didn't bother with creating proper sound mechanics. Sound isn't used to convey information to the player like in Thief. Sound design only exists for aesthetics. So, they added a cheat to let players get that information actively. Same thing is done with many modern games with stealth in them. The new Deus Ex games include a minimap that shows enemy locations, and third person cover mechanics that let the player see beyond corners without being exposed. But the most hilarous shortcut was taken by The Last of Us, which literally visualizes the sound that enemies should have been designed to produce and convey to the player, but never were.
The tools stealth games use lately have typically given players all the information they need rather than 'enough' information for them to make tense decisions. It would be nice to see a return to sound-based mechanisms, but clearly that's a tough ask and not always possible with time/budget constraints.
@@StealthDocs Half of the system in Thief exists even in games that don't use it for any gameplay purposes. Outer Worlds has very rudimentary stealth and sound mechanics for gameplay, but it has the same node graph based sound propagation as Thief has. Sound travels to the player the loudest through the easiest route. To make that into a feedback system for the player, all you need to do is rebalance the audio so it's... audible.
Stealth games are my favourite game gender but,in my opinion,Stealth games shouldn't have x-ray vision because it gives unfair advantage against the enemies.
Straightforward x-ray vision is an unimaginative solution to how players can gather information, definitely.
Dark vision/ X-ray vision I guess is a tool made for a casual gamer. Many stealth games are known for being hard and that was studios safety card for trying to sell AAA game. Remember that in old stealth games player usually can make mistake only once, and once the alarm is up everything is hell. Those not used to getting caught might get discouraged... even refund the game, maybe.
Or maybe it was to help roleplaying the game for the first time? People play stealth games masterfully when they get to know mechanics and level designs BUT that takes time. New games might sometimes confuse people at first and at the same time punish them hard for any mistakes. We play as some kind of an assassin or elite soldier, master thief etc. without being one ourselves. Having so much information and control over any situation feel empowering. Feel safe and kind of "in character" because of that power.
I love stealth games, or even those nowadays rpg games with stealth elements. But I grow kind of tired of x-ray and even minimap sometimes. I just wish studios would make sound systems for gathering information, just like in first thief games. It doesn't clutter anything, is intuitive and immersive... creeping around mansions, just listening for footsteps, small talks, mumbling, tired breaths od yawns.
:( just give us that back, we don't have to have everything pointed out to us.
I say it as an adult, experienced gamer with developed taste for games and experiences in them. But that kind of neglects kids, that might just get into gaming, and also disabled gamers which need help :/
So as long as anything is optional and can be disabled in menu, I'm content.
I think in the case of Dishonored, you're more predator than prey, so the idea of Dark Vision works in the narrative sense, even though I've argued the execution could be better. A lot of mileage depends on the player. I, for instance, have a compulsion to collect every piece of loot and neutralise every enemy without being detected, if possible, so naturally I gravitated towards x-ray vision. To Dishonored's credit, you can turn off or opt out of almost every power/HUD element; I wish objective markers had been switched off by default.
The point on sound design is well taken. All stealth games need tools and x-ray vision/radar is a legitimate design choice, though it obviously wouldn't go over well in games like Thief where the player is just a very talented sneaky person and sound plays a huge role in that experience. I just think in terms of player engagement, a lot of x-ray vision could be better executed.
For example, the 'radar' tool in Alien: Isolation is phenomenally good, because it gives you an idea of how close the enemy is without being specific and its rhythmic pulse sound effects add to the atmosphere of the game. The tech fits within the scope of the narrative, too.
Doesn't magic automatically recharge only on the easier modes?
I thought there was a harder mode in which it didn't automatically recharge...
To me that would also be a way to "fix" Dark Vision, making it less overpowered...
Gameplay is taken from hardest difficulty in all 3. There's an extra difficulty level in the Dishonored DLC called "Master Assassin" which cranks up AI and you can die in one hit, but I've not played through that difficulty so couldn't say how it deals with magic recharging.
Of course the best fix to Dark Vision, as a few people have pointed out, is not to use it! But I like how the power evolved with Foresight.
The truth is, enemy marking and any forms of x-ray visions should never even be allowed in true stealth games. They rob the player of suspense of the unknown which is a key ingredient of the hide n seek or hunting mechanics.
Good essay. Unfortunately game devs learned absolutely nothing from this game and use the same lazy boring overpowered wall-hack vision (thats how i call it) that everyone else uses because gamers in modern times dont need to think...
In order to make this mechanic less broken they should add a steep energy cost, a low duration or a severe movement penalty so that people only use it sparingly to get oriented a bit. Gamers nowadays are so lazy that they need so many hand-holdy mechanics. Heck most of them dont even use the map anymore.
Wall hack vision should have been a minor mechanic that simply aids the player a little bit, not something to be turned on for 90% of the game. This problem was created by the devs for making it such a low hanging fruit with very low costs of use that people naturally took to it like kids to ice cream. Worst thing is that in most games you can;t even turn it off in the options. It's a shame.
I really like the games in which using the wall hack vision slows down the character to a crawl, making the mechanic only useful in safe locations, but even so it's OP.
I never even buy this power when i am playing the game, it isn't necessary and it's kind of a waste of runes, especially in DIshonored 2 when powers are more expensive. I acutally disagree that D2's vision is more overpowerd, on its own is actually worse because, it's a pulsing radar and i think that the range is also smaller. It's only stronger when you upgrade it, but other powers are much more interesting.
Keyholes are not as good as Dark Vision, from a game design perspective. If you look through a keyhole, and there is nobody there, is that because there is nobody there, or because someone was just "out of camera" from the keyhole? If the latter, and he jumps on you when you exit, then that is punishing the player for something the player had no control over. One of the keys of stealth games is that everything _should_ be in a careful player's control, they should be able to acquire perfect knowledge of how to disarm a situation, and keyholes are not a good enough tool for that.
I mean, if players burst through doors without being careful, they deserve to get spotted, right? Dishonored and its sequels put guards and enemies at 'lookout' positions where they can spot players quickly, but also give players every chance to spot them first IF they're careful and regardless of whether or not they're using Dark Vision. Looking through keyholes, peeking around corners/obstacles is always handy and enemies make noises.
Dark Vision being an easier tool to use to gather information doesn't make it interesting, which is really the point I'm driving at. It works very well, but it's not an interesting tool to use. That keyholes aren't as 'good' is exactly what makes them better from a perspective of player engagement, IMO.
@@StealthDocs But if a guard is out of the bounds at which you can see them, then you aren't "not being careful," you just have no way of having the information. You either burst through the door, and have an RNG chance of getting caught, or you never burst through the door, making that door useless. Only by knowing what's on the other side of the door can you make an intelligent decision on the matter. It's a "Schrodinger's guard."
I can agree that Dark Vision isn't especially "interesting," I just think that the _value_ it provides is better than _not_ having it. I agree that the foresight thing is _more_ interesting, although probably slows things down considerably to have to scout in and out of an area at every turn (I didn't play the DLC).
@@timogul The only value Dark Vision provides players is in the time it saves them from having to learn how to use sound, sight and other information-gathering tools. Switch it on, see everything. If that's something people appreciate, I can't really argue with that and I don't think I try to in the video.
The point is that, to me, the tool makes information-gathering dull. It looks ugly. It detracts from other, riskier and more limited (and therefore more interesting) tools players can use to understand and navigate the game space. There are ways in which it could be better. Dishonored: DotO, in my opinon, fixed a lot that was missing with Dark Vision in that regard.
I think you've proven my point because you're so reliant on Dark Vision as a tool that you've never bothered to learn all the signifiers Dishonored gives players to indicate enemies are nearby, or the techniques players can use to minimise the risk of being detected. And why would you? X-ray vision, like you said, gives you knowledge rather than hints at what's lurking on the other side of a door. Or a wall. Or a building.
Again: there's nothing wrong with this; it's clearly the intent of the design. Dark Vision works. I just thought it could be better and I'm glad someone at Arkane Studios thought the same thing. :)
@@StealthDocs I don't know. I tend to be a slow, methodical player. I tend to take much longer to clear out a stage that involves stealth as an option than what I gather the average player does, because I spend time sneaking around and scoping out the scene, taking out enemies in the way that least risks complications. Even so, I welcome things that save me time, because time is limited.
Sounds can be a good tool, primarily to perk your ears that you should be looking around for enemies, but unless you have good positional audio devices you can't rely on it for accurate positioning. Sight works great, so long as you can get eyes on the target, which isn't always the case when there are barriers or you need to make blind leaps to enter a space. It depends on level design by the developers, to make sure that players have access to clear sight-lines to any place an enemy *might* be. That's doable, but not automatic.
Another nice thing about Dark Vision is how it makes enemies easier to see, even without obstructions. Seeing dark enemies against dark walls, in a shadow, can be extremely difficult unless you cheat the gamut settings, have a_really_ good monitor, or really good nightvision yourself. A special vision mode gives the _player_ access to the _character's_ special skills at detecting enemies.
I don't disagree that the DLC's changed version can be more interesting, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't prefer "vanilla" in this case, and to find my _fun_ in other parts of the experience.