1 min in and ill add the near end where Saruman flees to the hobbots after that other rohan sorceror had gone there and took over where he does meet his end
I like how you were going to go in on how Viggo Mortensen broke his toe but then just skipped it because everyone knows that he broke his toe and that is what made the scene so effective because he stayed in character as it happened.
"Thankfully, Pippin's hands are only bound for show, as he had previously cut them off and put on a fake binding earlier in the chapter." Poor Pippin No-Hands!
At the start of chapter 5, The White Rider, Legolas says about their missing horses, ‘I heard them clearly. But for the darkness and our own fear I should have guessed that they were beasts wild with some sudden gladness. They spoke as horses will when they meet a friend that they have long missed.’ So their two horses met Shadowfax and the old man was Gandolf but still with his memory incomplete.
‘Well, here is the strangest riddle that we have yet found!’ exclaimed Legolas. ‘A bound prisoner escapes both from the Orcs and from the surrounding horsemen. He then stops, while still in the open, and cuts his bonds with an orc-knife. But how and why? For if his legs were tied, how did he walk? And if his arms were tied, how did he use the knife? And if neither were tied, why did he cut the cords at all? Being pleased with his skill, he then sat down and quietly ate some waybread! That at least is enough to show that he was a hobbit, without the mallorn-leaf. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees. It should be easy to find him: we only need wings ourselves!’
Now that I think about it, it could have been possible that _one_ of them was tied (but only from his hands) and the _other_ one was not. The free one then cut the ropes of his companion and they escaped together. I'm surprised that Legolas did not come to think of that scenario.
There’s an interesting theory that the old man is Radagast the Brown, who had powers of illusion (over shapes and hues) and was known to primarily wander the forests, caretaking the flora and fauna which were his favored companions. There’s no proof of this, and it’s basically just a speculation, but I think it is the coolest answer of them all to this question. Gandalf says it wasn’t him, so probably Saruman, but he doesn’t know for sure; and nobody knows what Radagast was up to after sending the eagle messenger to Isengard.
This is my favorite theory too. There's so much doubt around the scene, but the way the old man vanishes without a trace...that's Radagast's power. And the way the horses sounded "glad" when the old man showed up...animals love Radagast.
@@JoshuaLivie The anger of the huorns (which Legolas sensed and which took Saruman by surprise) meant a wizard who cared for animals would have his hands full warning forest dwellers (and any nearby horses) out of the way.
I really enjoyed the Saruman encounter. It's the only time you witness anyone of the Fellowship welcoming a stranger to share the fire, and Aragorn even calls out, "Well, father, what can we do for you? Come and be warm, if you are cold!" Very polite. One point I think was important in the conversation with Eomer was that he gave his word that orcs and only orcs were slain and burned. Even with a description of hobbits, he stated "no dwarves or children" were harmed, and even though Gimli corrects him, I always took this as the riders of Rohan being sure of who they were killing. Eomer's only doubt was that anyone escaped their watch; he swore no orc evaded them once they reached the forest, but considering the strange raiment of the three hunters, he couldn't be sure of hobbits. I think this is why Aragorn was so sure that there must be some clue as to where Merry and Pippin vanished.
Omitting the part that only orcs were slain and burned makes the Riders look foolish, as if they just massacred everyone on the spot and never noticed the difference.
This is true, and shows how much more can be told via normal written story telling. In the books we find out that the riders of Rohan were quite certain they had killed and burned only orcs. But they admit that the Lorien cloaks could easily obscure those who wear them. Eomer and his group of riders from Rohan appear to be like any good military group - they think thoroughly about what they do, and do not act rashly under normal circumstances.
Wow, this is exactly what I've been wanting, more comparing of original authors' books to movie adaptations, rather than simply complaining. Show don't tell. Thanks!! I love it already.
And Gandalf has a moment where he speculates that Saruman came down to meet the host of Uruk Hai because he got too antsy, which seems to match the timeline
@@jballaviator Stands to reason that not only Gandalf would be able to magically charm living beings, so it could easily have been Saruman just enchanting the horses into thinking he was someone else.
I also came to the comments to respond to "Did you know..." An honest 'Laugh Out Loud' moment for me, which I don't usually do when watching YT videos. Well played, sir!
Two towers, chapter 5, The riders of Rohan: ‘I will come,’ said Aragorn. ‘And I will come, too,’ said Gimli. ‘The matter of the Lady Galadriel lies still between us. I have yet to teach you gentle speech.’ ‘We shall see,’ said Éomer. ‘So many strange things have chanced that to learn the praise of a fair lady under the loving strokes of a Dwarf’s axe will seem no great wonder. Farewell!’
Good quote. Tolkien has a way with words, where he bundles many key plot elements within appealing prose. Here he tells us a lot about the developing relationship between the "Fellowship" and Rohan and Eomer.
Legolas's line about the red dawn is more impactful and ominous without ruining the mystery of him being unable to tell if it's a good or bad omen. It does more to show you this by the greater context of the movie, and these scenes in particular. In my opinion it goes further along the lines of ambiguity since it was an accurate foretelling and the group was clueless if it was meant for the hobbits. When you are speaking specifically about building tension, this achieves that in spades. Setting the tone of the chase, we have this image, then Legolas's line. "A red sun rises, this is an omen, though for good or for ill, I know not." just doesn't hit as hard as a very definitive "Blood as been spilled this day." Then the party looks at each other and blots forward, with renewed purpose, because they don't know who's blood.
A smart change was to intercut the scenes of the hobbits escape and Aragorn tracking the escape. In the book, the searching of the battle scenes is told entirely before the whole hobbit story is told. That would have been difficult in a movie structure.
My two cents 'bout the Gandalf/Saruman thing: the nightly appearance had a large-brimmed hat on, which was typical of Gandalf, a recurring trait of the wizard. I'm not sure if that was an idea that changed during the writing of LotR, or if the idea was that Galdalf wasn't aware of being there since he tells the group that he still feels "disconnected" to the world aorund him, knowing things he didn't and forgetting things he knew.
Yes, you can see how Tolkien may have been tentative about just who this was. It's not cut and dry. But ultimately it 'makes more full sense this was a spying by Saruman. But we will probably never really fully know the answer to this question.
Also, in the book Legolas makes a crack about how the hobbit probably turned his arms to wings and flew off singing into the trees and how they only need wings themselves in order to follow. LOL. He later tells Meri and Pippin about this when they reunite at Isengard.
As a lover of all things Middle Earth, I have a natural tendency to want to see nothing omitted or changed. As a movie goer, however, one has to remember that these films were already about 3 hours long which requires careful bladder management preparation for a large segment of the audience to take in in one sitting. As you have said, the identity of the old man was left as a question in the book, and there appears to be no connection between that and the advancement of the plot, so, unlike the exclusion of Tom Bombadil, it makes a great deal of sense to omit it.
While reading the book, I assumed the old man visitor to be a wizard other than Gandalf or Saruman. I assumed that events in motion were being watched by other ancients or Maiar.
I like the semi-friendly rivalry between Gimli & Eomer regarding Galadriel being the fairest of all women. There's an amusing callback later in Return of the King on this.
I view this as the friendly but confrontational banter that men frequently wind up using to engage with one another. Eomer is not married to his ideas, nor is Gimli truly interested in open hostile action versus Eomer. The two are simply being hyperbolic in their statements and wish to remain resolute in their ideas. It shows what Eomer has learned as social education around Lorien, and also how deeply Gimli has now become devoted to Galadriel. This is good writing, which is never short in actual Tolkien, but in other sources is often in short supply.
@@crtune Yep, that's why I said "semi-friendly". There's also the competition between Legolas and Gimli over how many Orcs they killed at Helm's Deep... a good indication of their growing deep friendship in contrast to their "elves vs dwarves" arguing earlier in the story
The appearance of the ambiguous old man in the book is such a brilliant and ethereal allusion to Odin...Tolkien, expert on all things Anglo-Saxon and of broader Germanic and Norse lore, was of course well familiar with how Odin is said to travel the worlds disguised as an old man traveling, hooded or in a wide-brimmed traveler's hat. The imagery is one of a dream-like encounter with a old-world God, there one moment, gone the next. Perhaps even in Tolkien's universe it was one of the Valar, keeping watch over the future king in the night.
I wish they included Eomer’s apology, “if they will pardon my rash words concerning the Lady of the Wood. I spoke only as do all men in my land, and I would gladly learn better.”
Those are great additional sets of words. It shows that Eomer is truly a noble character and he realized he can be wrong, but that he is only following the patterns established within their society. We could always use more details on Eomer, and also on Fararmir. Both of these individuals wind up as high lords in the end.
Aragorn’s question about who Eomer serves actually connects way back to the Council of Elrond when Aragorn muses on a rumor that Rohan offers its horses to Sauron. Boromir vehemently denies this, insisting that the riders of Rohan love their horses almost as much as their family members. Aragorn questions this, but in an odd contradiction in the early part of the hunters’ pursuit, Aragorn says that he does not believe the rumors when Gimli muses on this same thing. Finally, Eomer himself explains that the rumor is of course a lie, and Sauron’s servants steal the black horses from Rohan, greatly angering Rohan’s people.
not that it's relevant to sauron but when aragorn reveals to the horseman that he is the true king of gondor. his aura is so bright or whatever that even his companions are shocked to see their friend (unveiled and embracing in) all his majesty. all present understand the difference between a man and a king (or at lest a dunedain king of old).
Tolkien's stories had a sort of theme of characters 'Revealing' their power, as if it was an act of will to turn on the Aura but it tones down shortly afterwards..
‘Wait a minute!’ cried Gimli. ‘There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?’ ‘You certainly did not see me,’ answered Gandalf, ‘therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.’ ----------- That was the whole reason that they had to attack the first wizard they saw. They believed Saruman was around. And since the wizards have to actually physically travel to be at a place, it must have been an apparition of him.
In the book it tells us there were three different tribes of Orcs fleeing with Pipin and Merry. The were the Uruk hai, bearing the white hand; Orcs from Mordor, with the Red Eye of Sauron and a group of Mountain Orcs that had followed The Fellowship all the way from Moria, to avenge the death of their leader. The Moria Orcs' number was greatly by the Elves of Lothlorian when they tried to cross its borders. There was much in-fighting between the three factions, until the Uruk hai established their dominance by killing or chasing off their opponents. That's the only thing I know that you've omitted. Otherwise a job well done.
I know that Tolkien liked some things in his book to be unknown such as with Tom Bombadil and I think here he is doing the same thing with the white wizard scene. Maybe he made the decision to not know the answer himself.
Eomer told Aragorn that Rohan does not pay tribute to Sauron but that he is aware of tales of Rohan paying that tribute in horses ( for use by ,among others, the Nazgûl) and calls such rumour lies.
@@City-Hunter true, the Blue Wizards were actively stirring up the Easterlings throughout the 2nd & 3rd Ages, trying to turn as many as possible against Sauron.
I agree it was probably Saruman "as an old man hooded and cloaked". The horses wouldn't be spooked because he's a wizard. I think it would have been cool to see the mysterious old man while they were camping, it would introduce a scary magical element to the scene. But I think it would confuse viewers because they are introduced to Gandalf in the next scene. Also it would add length to the movie as they would also have to show them camping another night.
The production of the movie purposely uses audio magic to blend the sound of Chris Lee or Ian McKellen to lead us to mistake one wizard for another. This is also an apparent theme of Tolkien's. It's not always easy to determine which wizard one is confronting.
Another comment suggested that it could have been Radagast the Brown, known to be loved by all animals (the horses, in this case) and very quick to hide himself and not wanting to get in the way of their mission. I like this theory.
I was just listening to this part of the audiobook! Also it's criminal that Andy Serkis is an amazing raconteur as well as a medium-defining actor and director. No one person has the right to be that talented in so many areas.
I haven't read the books, but Saruman demoted to grey as Ghandalf ascended to white, so that old man must have been Saruman, but the trio would mostly likely think it was Ghandalf. (Saruman palantir is likely helping him spy on stuff and might be how Sauron hooked him) Also why would Aragorn need light to track, he is half-elf and can most likely see well in the dark, probably the reason he is such a good tracker.
I think it’s important when telling the discussion between Aragorn and Eomer to say that Eomer was not banished. That is why he tells Aragorn that his life (Eomer) is in his hands and asks Aragorn to come to Meduseld.
Thanks for highlighting my comment! I'm really digging the more in depth dive into the differences in conversation. I know you can't normally do it because it would make the video way too long, but it's a nice touch for understanding the actual weight in that encounter.
I would have enjoyed extended dialogue between Eomer and the three companions, although I understand why the scene would be cut as the movie is very long as it is. On a side note, I think a Lord of the Rings TV series would have enormous potential since it would have fewer time constraints and therefore could include more scenes like this without trimming the dialogue as much. That is why I wish Amazon had made a Lord of the Rings show instead of Rings of Power; a billion dollar budget and a season per novel (or even a season per book so two seasons per novel) could have produced a truly incredible Lord of the Rings show. Although I acknowledge they may not have stayed loyal to the originals and instead chosen to add unnecessary plot elements of their own/omitted parts of the books, which would've watered the whole thing down
I very much think the "Saruman travelling the lands" is a red herring to increase the mystery and "spooky factor" towards the reader with the cloaked figure showing up before we know that Gandalf is actually alive, respawned as the White Wizard™. And especially considering the horses being joyful when they run off kind of implies that Shadowfax is also there, and they trot off because they want to go to him because he is their most favorite leader. If it was Saruman those horses would probably sense his malice and run off in fear to escape, it makes more sense to me that Gandalf removed their horses to ensure they would instead go on foot into the forest, rather than seek anouther route or get too far ahead and be more difficult to relocate in the woodlands. This, paired with Gandalf showing himself in practically the EXACT same matter to the three in Fangorn before finally revealing his true identity - basically cosplaying as Saruman on purpose, which to me indicates hat he had direct insight into what happened around the fire and what they saw, so I just always assumed it was him doing his usual "mysterious thing" and checking up on them before he would finally later reveal himself in his more usual dramatic Gandalf fashion. In the mean time he is also checking to see if Merry and Pippin was indeed alive as well, since he is always such a stickler for the right timing showing up "precisely when he means to" in every other event in both the Hobbit and LOTR, lol. Plus, Gandalf does the "cloaked old man in rags" schpiel in The Hobbit when Bilbo presents the Arkenstone to Bard and Thranduil at the siege of Erebor and Bilbo doesn't recognize neither his voice nor his appearance, and I hardly think the conniving coward that is Saruman would just appear and then disappear without at least TRYING to ensnare or fool the three to abandon their pursuit, nor would he appear in person to check to see where his orcs had gone at this moment in time- to me there just isn't enough on the "It's Saruman" side of things to conclude that it's NOT Gandalf playing the long game, yet again.
I've always felt that it was Radagast, as in the books the wizards are all supposed to have a very similar appearance all except for how they were garbed.
I always was of the opinion that it was Sauramon. I go back and forth between if he was in the flesh or just an apparition. It's such a "spooky" bit of the book, I think it's more just, chaulk it up to "Wizards are mysterious." so we're not really supposed to know. Which is why it's so damn funny to see him at the end of the story in Hobbiton, "how the mighty have fallen." and whatnot.
I mean, the whole "intro to Rohan" is sort of mysterious because we're just getting rumors on the state of the kingdom - it's falling into shadow, so to speak.
i love how self-aware this fandom has become. it is why i prefer it to my other fictional obsession star wars. maybe its cause of the age of the franchise but it way more wholesome and self-depreciating over here. the argon kicking the helmet joke was so perfect i had to pause and make this comment
2:40 Did you know that during this scene in the movie when Eomer and Aragorn are talking, shortly before Eomer gets off his horse, you can see his sword fall out of its scabbard? A little whoopsie the editors didn't catch i guess. And a different "did you know" fact to bring up than the "Aragorn broke his toe kicking the helmet" one that everybody already knows. Also, as far as the old man that they encountered goes, i think it was Saruman. Gandalf himself tells them that they didn't see him, and not like "my memory is a bit fuzzy but i don't think it was me", no. He said quite clearly "you CERTAINLY didn't see me", and so he supposes it must have been Saruman. This does leave open the possibility that it wasn't Saruman but in my opinion it closes the door on any chance of it having been Gandalf.
I think the appearance of the White Wizard is supposed to be kind of a headscratcher to us. Still I think it was Gandalf, and I have a few arguments for this. What really led me to think it was Gandalf is what Legolas says about the horses being happy, as if they where meeting an old friend. (Gandalf isn't as good with nature as Radagast, but was still able to "tame" Shadowfax, deed that no man could accomplish) Saruman, being the technomancer he is, would not have this kind of connection with the horses. Plus the behaviour of the old man by the fire is not one of a foe. I know Tolkien's wizards are not fighting mages and everything, but Gandalf has shown, at this point of the story, that a wizard is not to be messed with. So I couldn't see a good reason for Saruman to not even try to hinder the quest of the hunters, and with something else than scaring their horses away (who didn't seem scared, as seen before) So I feel like it would make more sens for Gandalf to be there at that moment. Still if that's the case, I can't figure why he would deny it the next day. Sense for drama, maybe ? Thanks for all the great job !
I read through the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings when I was sixteen, and I have reread the books two or three times since. I didn't particularly enjoy the movies. Sauron was one of the most interesting and fully developed characters in Lord of the Rings, and, in my opinion, he received short shrift in the films.
I’ve been waiting for this episode! I absolutely love the exchange between Eomer and Aragorn in the book, and I’m grateful that you went into it with as much detail as you could here. I’m definitely going to go back and read it now! Great vid, as always 👍🏼
I’m going to say the old man was Radagast. Doesn’t make much sense but I like the idea. Maybe he wondered into Fangorn Forest to hide out and avoid conflict and just happened to be near the hunters, so he was checking them out.
Again, I am loving this series! Its just satisfying for some reason! Its like I am actually listening to an audio book! Sometimes... But keep up the good work!
I have always thought it was Gandalf, trying to find the hobbits. He found Gimly first because of dwarves are easier to find than hobbits. Then he found Mary and Pippin and waited for the Aragorn to find them. He brought the horses to give the m to the hobbits if needed. There he talked to Treebeard to get come intel while waiting for the group to catch up.
Well a couple of notes. First, hobbits don’t ride horses. They rarely even ride ponies. But horses are definitely a no no. 😂 Second, Gandalf doesn’t convene with the hobbits or Treebeard until after the attack on Isengard. The movie changes this, which we’ll cover in next week’s episode. Treebeard never takes Merry and Pippin to the “white wizard”.
@@factorfantasyweekly That is what I get for watching the movies first. Also, I more of meaning using the horses as transport, as Gandolf would be leading the horses and the hobbits would not be controlling the horses. Similar to how a child that is to small to control the horse would still be on the horse or like a pack animal that the hobbits happen to be on. What I remember of the books is we really do not see things from Gandolf's perspective in the Two Towers. I took that he was active in the background and that the spotting of the "White Wizard," could be both Saruman and Gandolf. Gandolf managed to catch up to the companions, took the horses temporarily, in order to get intelligence and to keep the companions in a place that relatively safe, while he assessed the situation. I have ahard time to believe that Saruman was that close to Aragorn and did not try to kill Aragorn.
Yeah, that was some really special skills that Aragorn activated on that completely trampled ground :D I supposed that under more normal circumstances, he would have been able to tell when someone passed wind.
honestly the changes are small and the story still carries on in the right direction. It's like a few changes in the conversation that got left out so the person watching the movie doesn't get side tracked or confused. Or reveal too much of what is going to happen in the near future of the film for the people who haven't read the books.
Thank you for your wonderful comparison of book vs. movie. I'd like to add a little detail that is most beloved to me. On parting with the Rohirrim Gimli tells Eomer, that "the matter of the Lady Galadriel" still lies between them. This is taken up later in the "Return of the king" when Gimli confronts Eomer after the banquet where the elves including Galadriel and Arwen were present. For obvious time reasons this is missing in the third movie as well. It shows so beautifully the love and admiration that Gimli the dwarf has for Galadriel. Also one thing I just picked up right while watching your new episode. In the books it makes much more sense for the Rohirrim to try to take the three wanderers to Meduseld to prove their intentions before the king himself. In the movie they have been banned. Why would they be so eager to return? Did they really hope to be "forgiven" just for bringing a few strangers to Meduseld?
I feel foolish for saying this because I read the books several times but I remembered the old man appearance as potentially being either Gandalf or Saruman (in which case he was only an apparition meant to intimidate the hunters). Guess it's time for another reread!
Gandalf fits very well, especially since Shadowfax seems to now be around, and the horses undoubtedly ran off to join up with Shadowfax, their favorite fellow horse. But Tolkien had not fully decided who this man by the fire was going to be. This shows how an author can write serious material but not fully flesh it out. With minor additional text it could be nailed down as Saruman or as Gandalf.
Reading it as a kid, I always thought it was Gandalf as I was excited to see him return. But now it seems clear to me that it was Saruman seeking news about the two hobbits the Uruk’s had captured. He was convinced that they had the ring, and was equally convinced when he saw them after the battle of helms deep. Great channel by the way:)
Dude, I gotsta say - You're a freakin' legend for putting together this Omnibus PJ Shaming! As we've said in other exchanges, we're both immeasurably glad that these films exist and in some cases, we even understand why PJ would omit/ remove certain elements. Nevertheless, some of his 'alterations' are utterly criminal, and I'm glad you're bringing them to light. Cheers, mate.
I honestly wanted more here with Saruman. It wasn't clear whether or not this was Gandalf and we're later left to believe that it was. It'll be handled well later with the mixing of the voices of both wizards, but for here the notion that Saruman was hindering them … that's something I wanted to see. I think Jackson cut it because it wasn't really necessary, but I still miss it.
Hulo Gibby, I´m subscribed to your channel from the very begining, I´m very happy for your succes and waiting every sunday for your videos. Congrats and tank you very much for your work.
Not sure if this has been stated already, but the reason that the riders of Rohan don't see the party it the movie was because they were cresting over the top of a hill and had yet to be able to see over the top of and down the other side of the hill. You can see this clearly once the riders have past them and the party is looking down on them as they ride down the rest of the hill. It wasn't the cloaks that kept them out of sight.
I think Change 3 is because Jackson wanted to save that reveal about the cloaks when Frodo and Sam stumble down the hill when they are at the Black Gate. (I can't recall if that is a deviation from the book, either)
I won't say it would have been bad, but I just struggle to imagine the original White Wizard dragging himself out of Isengard, and into Fangorn, to go spying. He'd stay holed up in Orthanc, overseeing his army, plotting moves, and maybe being present to address any surprise Nazgul, Sauron Palantiri pings, or his Shire ruffians' updates, and it just feels odd, otherwise. It would almost make more sense to have been Radagast, as he might have a hat, and spoke well to beasts, though I can't see why he would pilfer their horses, either.
The infamous helemet kick. Viggo broke his toe kicking the helmet. I dont recall if it was a planned kick of an ad-lib. The pain and frustration is real on his face..
I was upset regarding the third films absence of Saruman and the Scouring of the Shire, I understand the film would have been too long, maybe there should have been a fourth film. After seeing the death of Saruman on the extended version of the film I was even more upset at the way Jackson changed Saruman's and Worm Tongue's demise. But if there is no Shire return in the movie then the story had to be changed.
The figure is radagast because 1. The woods are his domain and I’m sure he is traveling much to gather intel for the war 2. Saruman is too preoccupied with building his army and ruling from atop orthanc. It’s what blinded him to the peril of Fangorn in the first place. 3.saruman doesn’t wear a hat? 4. Radagast almost never leaves his house in Mirkwood but was “not there” when Elrond sent messengers. This must mean that radagast is very mobile
PJ’s LOTRs set the stage for the Amazon show green light. If PJ had been given 50 hours to film like the shows, he would have included many more details like the ones mentioned as well as Tom Bombadil.
Maybe Gandalf still 'walked long in dark thought' after his confrontation with Sauron, and didn't remember seeing the three hunters. He could have been very out-of-it.
Christopher Lee just _made_ the character unforgettable. If you read it in the books as an adult it's a little cheesy, but he really Saruman _dangerous._
Saruman is also known as Sharku or Old Man in Orkish, it's most likely this was Saruman as Aragorn would have recognised Gandalf and Gimli and indeed Legolas, even in his White form, Since they thought the old man was someone else it seems logical to conjecture Saruman of many colours as he was calling himself at the time - having turned from the white when allying with Sauron - was the intended person who they met, and Gandalf was still wandering through the forest tryiung to find the fellowship, that's my reasoning anyway but it's hard to say if the book doesn't even know in its redrafts. We can only guess the mind of Tolkien but it does seem logical he would be spying for both Hobbits and any sign of the fellowship because Frodo carries the one ring, and Saruman is unaware the fellowship has seperated so he would be keenly interested in tracking halfings and aware of their ring bearing even if he did not know exactly which hobbit carried the ring, And so is Gandalf (having "died" at the bridge of Khazad-dûm to The Balrog named Durin's Bane of Morgoth) powerful Maia: of the Istari or Wizards they may be, they are though not psychic even when they return with renewed and stronger powers under a new guise having faced death and been reincarnated. Incidentally all Elves are in fact psychic like Galadriel and can speak mind to mind although they prefer speech for clarity, especially when amongst races who do not haves such talents, but I digress.
Aragorn did not just kick a helmet and scream! He kicked the helmet, broke his big toe and that is why we got this painful scream together with the falling on his knees! Because he was in pain, but he used it for the scene. I like his dedication!
A bit of geography in context- Gimli’s home is 300 leagues or more away from Fangorn, very far away and book Saruman actually mentions that Gimli is far away from his home, so there is really no logical reason why Gimli should know anything about Fangorn Forest to think the Hobbits were crazy to go inside it
The movie doesn't completely remove Saruman. But the scene is sorta moved: when you first see The White Wizard in the film, you clearly see Christopher Lee's eyes and hear his voice blended with Ian McKellen. So in a way it is still ambiguous at first, just as the book has ambiguity.
If you have read the whole LOTR book or even listened to the entire unabridged LOTR audiobook then watching all three movies is like watching a trailer of the book. Of course, they had to cut out a lot of the book but what irks me so much is that Jackson cut a lot from the book out just to write his own additional scenes to put in the movie instead. Jackson was known as a monster movie maker before LOTR. People enjoyed the way he had done the effects and the miniatures of those movies. He could have made the scene where Gimli and the rest saw the old man standing at the edge of the scary forest into something spooky and mysterious but no! Aragorn has warned Gimli not to cut any living wood for the fore. Eomer had spoken of Saruman walking to and fro as an old man in the forest. Having them see the old man in white could have been very spooky but Jackson just cut it out. It would have taken only a few seconds if done correctly! After seeing the man in white the night before the travelers were even more jumpy about going into the old forest and it made watching the other man coming toward them while they were in the forest even spookier but Jackson misses that mark there as well. He was more interested in making Orks and battles. Jackson did not like Tolkien’s “good” heroes and was too busy giving them faults and making plenty of monsters and battles to actually take the time to read the story and understand the foundations of that world.
The bit about hiding behind the rock makes little sense but I wonder if the uncertainty of who the cloaked man was made it easier, safer, and simpler to the audience to omit him. To flesh it out properly and not just have a Rings of Power-esque random scene may have required too much time and diverted the flow of the river a little too much.
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1 min in and ill add the near end where Saruman flees to the hobbots after that other rohan sorceror had gone there and took over where he does meet his end
I like how you were going to go in on how Viggo Mortensen broke his toe but then just skipped it because everyone knows that he broke his toe and that is what made the scene so effective because he stayed in character as it happened.
i subscribed at that moment
Brother's there are people out there who do not know viggo broke his toe. We must use every chance to let them know.
Or that he bought the horse he used for filming.
I just posted a comment thanking him for that technical error! :D
Seriously everybody and his grandmother mentions it!
@@MarcelNL well it’s an iconic piece of trivia.
"Thankfully, Pippin's hands are only bound for show, as he had previously cut them off and put on a fake binding earlier in the chapter."
Poor Pippin No-Hands!
💀 haha good catch
That gave me a pause, as well, especially when imagining Legola's bafflement: how did he use the knife if he had no hands? :D
At the start of chapter 5, The White Rider, Legolas says about their missing horses, ‘I heard them clearly. But for the darkness and our own fear I should have guessed that they were beasts wild with some sudden gladness. They spoke as horses will when they meet a friend that they have long missed.’ So their two horses met Shadowfax and the old man was Gandolf but still with his memory incomplete.
‘Well, here is the strangest riddle that we have yet found!’ exclaimed Legolas. ‘A bound prisoner escapes both from the Orcs and from the surrounding horsemen. He then stops, while still in the open, and cuts his bonds with an orc-knife. But how and why? For if his legs were tied, how did he walk? And if his arms were tied, how did he use the knife? And if neither were tied, why did he cut the cords at all? Being pleased with his skill, he then sat down and quietly ate some waybread! That at least is enough to show that he was a hobbit, without the mallorn-leaf. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees. It should be easy to find him: we only need wings ourselves!’
When I read this it sounded at first like it was Legolas who was pleased with his skill, sat down, and ate bread.🤣
Now that I think about it, it could have been possible that _one_ of them was tied (but only from his hands) and the _other_ one was not. The free one then cut the ropes of his companion and they escaped together. I'm surprised that Legolas did not come to think of that scenario.
There’s an interesting theory that the old man is Radagast the Brown, who had powers of illusion (over shapes and hues) and was known to primarily wander the forests, caretaking the flora and fauna which were his favored companions.
There’s no proof of this, and it’s basically just a speculation, but I think it is the coolest answer of them all to this question. Gandalf says it wasn’t him, so probably Saruman, but he doesn’t know for sure; and nobody knows what Radagast was up to after sending the eagle messenger to Isengard.
Interesting!
This is my favorite theory too. There's so much doubt around the scene, but the way the old man vanishes without a trace...that's Radagast's power. And the way the horses sounded "glad" when the old man showed up...animals love Radagast.
Why would Radagast come there and then run for it? If he did come there why would he disappear, wouldn't he want to help in some way?
@@JoshuaLivieMaybe he just didn’t know who they were?
@@JoshuaLivie The anger of the huorns (which Legolas sensed and which took Saruman by surprise) meant a wizard who cared for animals would have his hands full warning forest dwellers (and any nearby horses) out of the way.
I really enjoyed the Saruman encounter. It's the only time you witness anyone of the Fellowship welcoming a stranger to share the fire, and Aragorn even calls out, "Well, father, what can we do for you? Come and be warm, if you are cold!" Very polite.
One point I think was important in the conversation with Eomer was that he gave his word that orcs and only orcs were slain and burned. Even with a description of hobbits, he stated "no dwarves or children" were harmed, and even though Gimli corrects him, I always took this as the riders of Rohan being sure of who they were killing. Eomer's only doubt was that anyone escaped their watch; he swore no orc evaded them once they reached the forest, but considering the strange raiment of the three hunters, he couldn't be sure of hobbits. I think this is why Aragorn was so sure that there must be some clue as to where Merry and Pippin vanished.
Omitting the part that only orcs were slain and burned makes the Riders look foolish, as if they just massacred everyone on the spot and never noticed the difference.
This is true, and shows how much more can be told via normal written story telling. In the books we find out that the riders of Rohan were quite certain they had killed and burned only orcs. But they admit that the Lorien cloaks could easily obscure those who wear them. Eomer and his group of riders from Rohan appear to be like any good military group - they think thoroughly about what they do, and do not act rashly under normal circumstances.
Wow, this is exactly what I've been wanting, more comparing of original authors' books to movie adaptations, rather than simply complaining. Show don't tell.
Thanks!! I love it already.
Treebeard also comments later that he has frequently encountered Saruman on the outskirts of Fangorn, so it probably was Saruman they met.
And Gandalf has a moment where he speculates that Saruman came down to meet the host of Uruk Hai because he got too antsy, which seems to match the timeline
The horses "neighing as if they has met a long lost friend" ends the mystery.
@@jballaviator Stands to reason that not only Gandalf would be able to magically charm living beings, so it could easily have been Saruman just enchanting the horses into thinking he was someone else.
The "Did you know?" was perfect. After seeing commenters bring it up ten thousand times, it is no longer a fun fact.
I just came to the comments to see if someone said this, if not I was going to do it myself, just a perfect intervention...
Oh hell yea. I barely write comments, went to the comment-section to write this one. Was reliefed some else also noticed it xd.
At this point I've seen it used as a joke more than I've seen it as an actual piece of trivia, though.
@@LaurensPP "And just when I thought I'd had enough of that, he made it Fun again." Gimli Gloin'son Corleone
I also came to the comments to respond to "Did you know..." An honest 'Laugh Out Loud' moment for me, which I don't usually do when watching YT videos. Well played, sir!
Two towers, chapter 5, The riders of Rohan:
‘I will come,’ said Aragorn.
‘And I will come, too,’ said Gimli. ‘The matter of the Lady Galadriel lies still between us. I have yet to teach you gentle speech.’
‘We shall see,’ said Éomer. ‘So many strange things have chanced that to learn the praise of a fair lady under the loving strokes of a Dwarf’s axe will seem no great wonder.
Farewell!’
Good quote. Tolkien has a way with words, where he bundles many key plot elements within appealing prose. Here he tells us a lot about the developing relationship between the "Fellowship" and Rohan and Eomer.
Dude, that's one of my favourite exchanges in that part of the book!!!
Legolas's line about the red dawn is more impactful and ominous without ruining the mystery of him being unable to tell if it's a good or bad omen. It does more to show you this by the greater context of the movie, and these scenes in particular. In my opinion it goes further along the lines of ambiguity since it was an accurate foretelling and the group was clueless if it was meant for the hobbits. When you are speaking specifically about building tension, this achieves that in spades.
Setting the tone of the chase, we have this image, then Legolas's line. "A red sun rises, this is an omen, though for good or for ill, I know not." just doesn't hit as hard as a very definitive "Blood as been spilled this day." Then the party looks at each other and blots forward, with renewed purpose, because they don't know who's blood.
Disagree. Tension is built by the multiplicity of uncertainties. "for good or ill" is an added uncertainty.
A smart change was to intercut the scenes of the hobbits escape and Aragorn tracking the escape. In the book, the searching of the battle scenes is told entirely before the whole hobbit story is told. That would have been difficult in a movie structure.
My two cents 'bout the Gandalf/Saruman thing: the nightly appearance had a large-brimmed hat on, which was typical of Gandalf, a recurring trait of the wizard. I'm not sure if that was an idea that changed during the writing of LotR, or if the idea was that Galdalf wasn't aware of being there since he tells the group that he still feels "disconnected" to the world aorund him, knowing things he didn't and forgetting things he knew.
Both Saruman and Gandalf were wizards.
Yes, you can see how Tolkien may have been tentative about just who this was. It's not cut and dry. But ultimately it 'makes more full sense this was a spying by Saruman. But we will probably never really fully know the answer to this question.
I always read it as Gandalf, but that's been a long time since I read it last.
I too, understood it to be a "Disconnected" Gandalf. As it would make a lot more literary sense as opposed to it being a spy of Saruman.
Also, in the book Legolas makes a crack about how the hobbit probably turned his arms to wings and flew off singing into the trees and how they only need wings themselves in order to follow. LOL. He later tells Meri and Pippin about this when they reunite at Isengard.
Legolas being stumped at the hobbits plopping down in the middle of a battlefield to eat sells this entire scene.
I also love how in the book a nearby tree bends over their fire as if to enjoy the warmth.
As a lover of all things Middle Earth, I have a natural tendency to want to see nothing omitted or changed. As a movie goer, however, one has to remember that these films were already about 3 hours long which requires careful bladder management preparation for a large segment of the audience to take in in one sitting. As you have said, the identity of the old man was left as a question in the book, and there appears to be no connection between that and the advancement of the plot, so, unlike the exclusion of Tom Bombadil, it makes a great deal of sense to omit it.
Aragorn also tells Eomer that he was no stranger to Rohan, that he had ridden with prior kings, so the law did not apply anyway.
While reading the book, I assumed the old man visitor to be a wizard other than Gandalf or Saruman. I assumed that events in motion were being watched by other ancients or Maiar.
I think it was Stan Lee too
I like the semi-friendly rivalry between Gimli & Eomer regarding Galadriel being the fairest of all women. There's an amusing callback later in Return of the King on this.
I view this as the friendly but confrontational banter that men frequently wind up using to engage with one another. Eomer is not married to his ideas, nor is Gimli truly interested in open hostile action versus Eomer. The two are simply being hyperbolic in their statements and wish to remain resolute in their ideas. It shows what Eomer has learned as social education around Lorien, and also how deeply Gimli has now become devoted to Galadriel. This is good writing, which is never short in actual Tolkien, but in other sources is often in short supply.
@@crtune Yep, that's why I said "semi-friendly". There's also the competition between Legolas and Gimli over how many Orcs they killed at Helm's Deep... a good indication of their growing deep friendship in contrast to their "elves vs dwarves" arguing earlier in the story
The appearance of the ambiguous old man in the book is such a brilliant and ethereal allusion to Odin...Tolkien, expert on all things Anglo-Saxon and of broader Germanic and Norse lore, was of course well familiar with how Odin is said to travel the worlds disguised as an old man traveling, hooded or in a wide-brimmed traveler's hat. The imagery is one of a dream-like encounter with a old-world God, there one moment, gone the next. Perhaps even in Tolkien's universe it was one of the Valar, keeping watch over the future king in the night.
I wish they included Eomer’s apology, “if they will pardon my rash words concerning the Lady of the Wood. I spoke only as do all men in my land, and I would gladly learn better.”
Those are great additional sets of words. It shows that Eomer is truly a noble character and he realized he can be wrong, but that he is only following the patterns established within their society. We could always use more details on Eomer, and also on Fararmir. Both of these individuals wind up as high lords in the end.
6:40 its hilly terrain,neither of them saw each other until one of the two groups crested the hill.
Aragorn’s question about who Eomer serves actually connects way back to the Council of Elrond when Aragorn muses on a rumor that Rohan offers its horses to Sauron. Boromir vehemently denies this, insisting that the riders of Rohan love their horses almost as much as their family members. Aragorn questions this, but in an odd contradiction in the early part of the hunters’ pursuit, Aragorn says that he does not believe the rumors when Gimli muses on this same thing. Finally, Eomer himself explains that the rumor is of course a lie, and Sauron’s servants steal the black horses from Rohan, greatly angering Rohan’s people.
Isn't it cool that Saruman's staff is in the same shape as Orthanc?
not that it's relevant to sauron but when aragorn reveals to the horseman that he is the true king of gondor. his aura is so bright or whatever that even his companions are shocked to see their friend (unveiled and embracing in) all his majesty. all present understand the difference between a man and a king (or at lest a dunedain king of old).
Tolkien's stories had a sort of theme of characters 'Revealing' their power, as if it was an act of will to turn on the Aura but it tones down shortly afterwards..
‘Wait a minute!’ cried Gimli. ‘There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?’
‘You certainly did not see me,’ answered Gandalf, ‘therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.’
-----------
That was the whole reason that they had to attack the first wizard they saw. They believed Saruman was around. And since the wizards have to actually physically travel to be at a place, it must have been an apparition of him.
In the book it tells us there were three different tribes of Orcs fleeing with Pipin and Merry. The were the Uruk hai, bearing the white hand; Orcs from Mordor, with the Red Eye of Sauron and a group of Mountain Orcs that had followed The Fellowship all the way from Moria, to avenge the death of their leader. The Moria Orcs' number was greatly by the Elves of Lothlorian when they tried to cross its borders.
There was much in-fighting between the three factions, until the Uruk hai established their dominance by killing or chasing off their opponents. That's the only thing I know that you've omitted.
Otherwise a job well done.
*beep* “did you know….” 😂😂😂 that was perfect
"Did you know.." 😂😂
"I think you can see where this is going" 😂oh yes
"Crumbs from Merry's and Pippin's midbattle snack"😂😂😂
For some reason I’ve only just come across your site, absolutely brilliant and love the depth and insight you provide.
Welcome to the community! 🙏🏼
I know that Tolkien liked some things in his book to be unknown such as with Tom Bombadil and I think here he is doing the same thing with the white wizard scene. Maybe he made the decision to not know the answer himself.
Eomer told Aragorn that Rohan does not pay tribute to Sauron but that he is aware of tales of Rohan paying that tribute in horses ( for use by ,among others, the Nazgûl) and calls such rumour lies.
Èomer. Not elmer…fud.. 😅😂❤
@@Makkaru112 Auto correct corrected me twice. Second time I did not notice.
He also mentions how Orcs keep stealing their horses-mostly the black ones.
Easterlings were on both sides durings the 2nd & 3rd age
@@City-Hunter true, the Blue Wizards were actively stirring up the Easterlings throughout the 2nd & 3rd Ages, trying to turn as many as possible against Sauron.
I agree it was probably Saruman "as an old man hooded and cloaked". The horses wouldn't be spooked because he's a wizard.
I think it would have been cool to see the mysterious old man while they were camping, it would introduce a scary magical element to the scene. But I think it would confuse viewers because they are introduced to Gandalf in the next scene. Also it would add length to the movie as they would also have to show them camping another night.
I always thought that was just Gandalf the white… in the extended cut you can even see/hear Gandalf kinda sound/appear like Saruman.
The production of the movie purposely uses audio magic to blend the sound of Chris Lee or Ian McKellen to lead us to mistake one wizard for another. This is also an apparent theme of Tolkien's. It's not always easy to determine which wizard one is confronting.
Another comment suggested that it could have been Radagast the Brown, known to be loved by all animals (the horses, in this case) and very quick to hide himself and not wanting to get in the way of their mission. I like this theory.
For those who don't already know, 1 league = 3 miles. So 40 leagues of travel = 120 miles = 200 Km!!
* some rounding involved, but not much.
That was Radagast using his illusions to prep them for Gandalf's return
I was just listening to this part of the audiobook!
Also it's criminal that Andy Serkis is an amazing raconteur as well as a medium-defining actor and director. No one person has the right to be that talented in so many areas.
He’s the best!
I haven't read the books, but Saruman demoted to grey as Ghandalf ascended to white, so that old man must have been Saruman, but the trio would mostly likely think it was Ghandalf.
(Saruman palantir is likely helping him spy on stuff and might be how Sauron hooked him)
Also why would Aragorn need light to track, he is half-elf and can most likely see well in the dark, probably the reason he is such a good tracker.
I think it’s important when telling the discussion between Aragorn and Eomer to say that Eomer was not banished. That is why he tells Aragorn that his life (Eomer) is in his hands and asks Aragorn to come to Meduseld.
Here's the thing, he discussed this in the last episode.
That's probably why he left it out for this episode.
Some readers speculate that the old man could have been Radagast the Brown rather than Gandalf or Saruman.
Thanks for highlighting my comment! I'm really digging the more in depth dive into the differences in conversation. I know you can't normally do it because it would make the video way too long, but it's a nice touch for understanding the actual weight in that encounter.
2:57 I love the part where he knew that we knew.
He had us in the first half, not gonna lie 😂
I would have enjoyed extended dialogue between Eomer and the three companions, although I understand why the scene would be cut as the movie is very long as it is.
On a side note, I think a Lord of the Rings TV series would have enormous potential since it would have fewer time constraints and therefore could include more scenes like this without trimming the dialogue as much. That is why I wish Amazon had made a Lord of the Rings show instead of Rings of Power; a billion dollar budget and a season per novel (or even a season per book so two seasons per novel) could have produced a truly incredible Lord of the Rings show. Although I acknowledge they may not have stayed loyal to the originals and instead chosen to add unnecessary plot elements of their own/omitted parts of the books, which would've watered the whole thing down
I very much think the "Saruman travelling the lands" is a red herring to increase the mystery and "spooky factor" towards the reader with the cloaked figure showing up before we know that Gandalf is actually alive, respawned as the White Wizard™.
And especially considering the horses being joyful when they run off kind of implies that Shadowfax is also there, and they trot off because they want to go to him because he is their most favorite leader. If it was Saruman those horses would probably sense his malice and run off in fear to escape, it makes more sense to me that Gandalf removed their horses to ensure they would instead go on foot into the forest, rather than seek anouther route or get too far ahead and be more difficult to relocate in the woodlands.
This, paired with Gandalf showing himself in practically the EXACT same matter to the three in Fangorn before finally revealing his true identity - basically cosplaying as Saruman on purpose, which to me indicates hat he had direct insight into what happened around the fire and what they saw, so I just always assumed it was him doing his usual "mysterious thing" and checking up on them before he would finally later reveal himself in his more usual dramatic Gandalf fashion.
In the mean time he is also checking to see if Merry and Pippin was indeed alive as well, since he is always such a stickler for the right timing showing up "precisely when he means to" in every other event in both the Hobbit and LOTR, lol.
Plus, Gandalf does the "cloaked old man in rags" schpiel in The Hobbit when Bilbo presents the Arkenstone to Bard and Thranduil at the siege of Erebor and Bilbo doesn't recognize neither his voice nor his appearance, and I hardly think the conniving coward that is Saruman would just appear and then disappear without at least TRYING to ensnare or fool the three to abandon their pursuit, nor would he appear in person to check to see where his orcs had gone at this moment in time- to me there just isn't enough on the "It's Saruman" side of things to conclude that it's NOT Gandalf playing the long game, yet again.
The "did you know " is a perfect edit .
I've always felt that it was Radagast, as in the books the wizards are all supposed to have a very similar appearance all except for how they were garbed.
I always was of the opinion that it was Sauramon. I go back and forth between if he was in the flesh or just an apparition. It's such a "spooky" bit of the book, I think it's more just, chaulk it up to "Wizards are mysterious." so we're not really supposed to know. Which is why it's so damn funny to see him at the end of the story in Hobbiton, "how the mighty have fallen." and whatnot.
I mean, the whole "intro to Rohan" is sort of mysterious because we're just getting rumors on the state of the kingdom - it's falling into shadow, so to speak.
i love how self-aware this fandom has become. it is why i prefer it to my other fictional obsession star wars. maybe its cause of the age of the franchise but it way more wholesome and self-depreciating over here. the argon kicking the helmet joke was so perfect i had to pause and make this comment
2:40 Did you know that during this scene in the movie when Eomer and Aragorn are talking, shortly before Eomer gets off his horse, you can see his sword fall out of its scabbard? A little whoopsie the editors didn't catch i guess. And a different "did you know" fact to bring up than the "Aragorn broke his toe kicking the helmet" one that everybody already knows.
Also, as far as the old man that they encountered goes, i think it was Saruman. Gandalf himself tells them that they didn't see him, and not like "my memory is a bit fuzzy but i don't think it was me", no. He said quite clearly "you CERTAINLY didn't see me", and so he supposes it must have been Saruman. This does leave open the possibility that it wasn't Saruman but in my opinion it closes the door on any chance of it having been Gandalf.
😮
If it was Saruman in the flesh why would he do nothing about the searchers?
It would make a bit more sense as an apparition.
My TH-cam been filled with Tolkien/LOTR content ever since rings of power s2 finished and I’ve been loving it 😂👍🏾
I think the appearance of the White Wizard is supposed to be kind of a headscratcher to us. Still I think it was Gandalf, and I have a few arguments for this.
What really led me to think it was Gandalf is what Legolas says about the horses being happy, as if they where meeting an old friend. (Gandalf isn't as good with nature as Radagast, but was still able to "tame" Shadowfax, deed that no man could accomplish) Saruman, being the technomancer he is, would not have this kind of connection with the horses.
Plus the behaviour of the old man by the fire is not one of a foe. I know Tolkien's wizards are not fighting mages and everything, but Gandalf has shown, at this point of the story, that a wizard is not to be messed with. So I couldn't see a good reason for Saruman to not even try to hinder the quest of the hunters, and with something else than scaring their horses away (who didn't seem scared, as seen before)
So I feel like it would make more sens for Gandalf to be there at that moment. Still if that's the case, I can't figure why he would deny it the next day. Sense for drama, maybe ?
Thanks for all the great job !
I read through the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings when I was sixteen, and I have reread the books two or three times since. I didn't particularly enjoy the movies. Sauron was one of the most interesting and fully developed characters in Lord of the Rings, and, in my opinion, he received short shrift in the films.
I’ve been waiting for this episode! I absolutely love the exchange between Eomer and Aragorn in the book, and I’m grateful that you went into it with as much detail as you could here. I’m definitely going to go back and read it now! Great vid, as always 👍🏼
I’m going to say the old man was Radagast. Doesn’t make much sense but I like the idea. Maybe he wondered into Fangorn Forest to hide out and avoid conflict and just happened to be near the hunters, so he was checking them out.
Radagast always shows up in the nick of time, probably sensing the arrival of another wizard or the return of Gandalf.
Again, I am loving this series! Its just satisfying for some reason! Its like I am actually listening to an audio book! Sometimes... But keep up the good work!
I have always thought it was Gandalf, trying to find the hobbits. He found Gimly first because of dwarves are easier to find than hobbits. Then he found Mary and Pippin and waited for the Aragorn to find them. He brought the horses to give the m to the hobbits if needed. There he talked to Treebeard to get come intel while waiting for the group to catch up.
Well a couple of notes. First, hobbits don’t ride horses. They rarely even ride ponies. But horses are definitely a no no. 😂
Second, Gandalf doesn’t convene with the hobbits or Treebeard until after the attack on Isengard. The movie changes this, which we’ll cover in next week’s episode. Treebeard never takes Merry and Pippin to the “white wizard”.
@@factorfantasyweekly That is what I get for watching the movies first. Also, I more of meaning using the horses as transport, as Gandolf would be leading the horses and the hobbits would not be controlling the horses. Similar to how a child that is to small to control the horse would still be on the horse or like a pack animal that the hobbits happen to be on. What I remember of the books is we really do not see things from Gandolf's perspective in the Two Towers. I took that he was active in the background and that the spotting of the "White Wizard," could be both Saruman and Gandolf.
Gandolf managed to catch up to the companions, took the horses temporarily, in order to get intelligence and to keep the companions in a place that relatively safe, while he assessed the situation. I have ahard time to believe that Saruman was that close to Aragorn and did not try to kill Aragorn.
A hobbit lay here, activates ranger mode.
Yeah, that was some really special skills that Aragorn activated on that completely trampled ground :D I supposed that under more normal circumstances, he would have been able to tell when someone passed wind.
honestly the changes are small and the story still carries on in the right direction. It's like a few changes in the conversation that got left out so the person watching the movie doesn't get side tracked or confused. Or reveal too much of what is going to happen in the near future of the film for the people who haven't read the books.
Thank you for your wonderful comparison of book vs. movie. I'd like to add a little detail that is most beloved to me. On parting with the Rohirrim Gimli tells Eomer, that "the matter of the Lady Galadriel" still lies between them. This is taken up later in the "Return of the king" when Gimli confronts Eomer after the banquet where the elves including Galadriel and Arwen were present. For obvious time reasons this is missing in the third movie as well. It shows so beautifully the love and admiration that Gimli the dwarf has for Galadriel.
Also one thing I just picked up right while watching your new episode. In the books it makes much more sense for the Rohirrim to try to take the three wanderers to Meduseld to prove their intentions before the king himself. In the movie they have been banned. Why would they be so eager to return? Did they really hope to be "forgiven" just for bringing a few strangers to Meduseld?
Great points!
I feel foolish for saying this because I read the books several times but I remembered the old man appearance as potentially being either Gandalf or Saruman (in which case he was only an apparition meant to intimidate the hunters). Guess it's time for another reread!
I suppose he's aware of what you say but chose to imply it was Saruman (althougth that doesn't make much sense) for the sake of the introduction.
@@EALS-pb5rs that tracks
I always took it to be Gandalf The White who approached the fire.
Gandalf fits very well, especially since Shadowfax seems to now be around, and the horses undoubtedly ran off to join up with Shadowfax, their favorite fellow horse. But Tolkien had not fully decided who this man by the fire was going to be. This shows how an author can write serious material but not fully flesh it out. With minor additional text it could be nailed down as Saruman or as Gandalf.
Reading it as a kid, I always thought it was Gandalf as I was excited to see him return. But now it seems clear to me that it was Saruman seeking news about the two hobbits the Uruk’s had captured. He was convinced that they had the ring, and was equally convinced when he saw them after the battle of helms deep. Great channel by the way:)
When I found episode 9 and started watching the series from beginning, I definedly waited for this episode😄
yay a new FoF video! Grabbing a cup of tea.
👀 Cozy up!
Am really enjoying this series! Keep up the good work 👍🏻
Bit before the 3 minute mark: THANK YOU for that technical error! :DI was just about to roll my eyes!
So what u saying is Aragorn never kicked that helmet and Viggo broke his toe for nothing? thx PJ.
I really like this section. Aragorn speaks very tactfully and manages to get 1 horses out of it
Dude, I gotsta say - You're a freakin' legend for putting together this Omnibus PJ Shaming! As we've said in other exchanges, we're both immeasurably glad that these films exist and in some cases, we even understand why PJ would omit/ remove certain elements. Nevertheless, some of his 'alterations' are utterly criminal, and I'm glad you're bringing them to light.
Cheers, mate.
100%. I love the movies. But let’s educate ourselves on the books too! Cheers 🍻
I honestly wanted more here with Saruman. It wasn't clear whether or not this was Gandalf and we're later left to believe that it was. It'll be handled well later with the mixing of the voices of both wizards, but for here the notion that Saruman was hindering them … that's something I wanted to see. I think Jackson cut it because it wasn't really necessary, but I still miss it.
Hulo Gibby, I´m subscribed to your channel from the very begining, I´m very happy for your succes and waiting every sunday for your videos. Congrats and tank you very much for your work.
Legend 🙏🏼🔥
7:03 why the hell not? I dont think any fans would mind.
Not sure if this has been stated already, but the reason that the riders of Rohan don't see the party it the movie was because they were cresting over the top of a hill and had yet to be able to see over the top of and down the other side of the hill. You can see this clearly once the riders have past them and the party is looking down on them as they ride down the rest of the hill. It wasn't the cloaks that kept them out of sight.
I think Change 3 is because Jackson wanted to save that reveal about the cloaks when Frodo and Sam stumble down the hill when they are at the Black Gate. (I can't recall if that is a deviation from the book, either)
According to another interpretation, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli encounter Odin by their campfire.
Fun fact: wit used to be a euphemism for male genitalia. Given how much of a nerd Tolkein was, I'm pretty sure Gimli wasn't calling Eomer stupid.
I won't say it would have been bad, but I just struggle to imagine the original White Wizard dragging himself out of Isengard, and into Fangorn, to go spying. He'd stay holed up in Orthanc, overseeing his army, plotting moves, and maybe being present to address any surprise Nazgul, Sauron Palantiri pings, or his Shire ruffians' updates, and it just feels odd, otherwise. It would almost make more sense to have been Radagast, as he might have a hat, and spoke well to beasts, though I can't see why he would pilfer their horses, either.
The infamous helemet kick. Viggo broke his toe kicking the helmet. I dont recall if it was a planned kick of an ad-lib. The pain and frustration is real on his face..
I was upset regarding the third films absence of Saruman and the Scouring of the Shire, I understand the film would have been too long, maybe there should have been a fourth film. After seeing the death of Saruman on the extended version of the film I was even more upset at the way Jackson changed Saruman's and Worm Tongue's demise. But if there is no Shire return in the movie then the story had to be changed.
I always thought that it was Gandalf mainly it put context in my mind why he was wandering around Fanghorn.
The figure is radagast because
1. The woods are his domain and I’m sure he is traveling much to gather intel for the war
2. Saruman is too preoccupied with building his army and ruling from atop orthanc. It’s what blinded him to the peril of Fangorn in the first place.
3.saruman doesn’t wear a hat?
4. Radagast almost never leaves his house in Mirkwood but was “not there” when Elrond sent messengers. This must mean that radagast is very mobile
PJ’s LOTRs set the stage for the Amazon show green light. If PJ had been given 50 hours to film like the shows, he would have included many more details like the ones mentioned as well as Tom Bombadil.
Maybe Gandalf still 'walked long in dark thought' after his confrontation with Sauron, and didn't remember seeing the three hunters. He could have been very out-of-it.
Christopher Lee just _made_ the character unforgettable.
If you read it in the books as an adult it's a little cheesy, but he really Saruman _dangerous._
Saruman is also known as Sharku or Old Man in Orkish, it's most likely this was Saruman as Aragorn would have recognised Gandalf and Gimli and indeed Legolas, even in his White form, Since they thought the old man was someone else it seems logical to conjecture Saruman of many colours as he was calling himself at the time - having turned from the white when allying with Sauron - was the intended person who they met, and Gandalf was still wandering through the forest tryiung to find the fellowship, that's my reasoning anyway but it's hard to say if the book doesn't even know in its redrafts. We can only guess the mind of Tolkien but it does seem logical he would be spying for both Hobbits and any sign of the fellowship because Frodo carries the one ring, and Saruman is unaware the fellowship has seperated so he would be keenly interested in tracking halfings and aware of their ring bearing even if he did not know exactly which hobbit carried the ring, And so is Gandalf (having "died" at the bridge of Khazad-dûm to The Balrog named Durin's Bane of Morgoth) powerful Maia: of the Istari or Wizards they may be, they are though not psychic even when they return with renewed and stronger powers under a new guise having faced death and been reincarnated. Incidentally all Elves are in fact psychic like Galadriel and can speak mind to mind although they prefer speech for clarity, especially when amongst races who do not haves such talents, but I digress.
Aragorn did not just kick a helmet and scream! He kicked the helmet, broke his big toe and that is why we got this painful scream together with the falling on his knees! Because he was in pain, but he used it for the scene. I like his dedication!
A bit of geography in context- Gimli’s home is 300 leagues or more away from Fangorn, very far away and book Saruman actually mentions that Gimli is far away from his home, so there is really no logical reason why Gimli should know anything about Fangorn Forest to think the Hobbits were crazy to go inside it
Excellent analysis! Will this series end with the Scouring of the Shire, the book versus movie? Wait…never mind
The movie doesn't completely remove Saruman. But the scene is sorta moved: when you first see The White Wizard in the film, you clearly see Christopher Lee's eyes and hear his voice blended with Ian McKellen.
So in a way it is still ambiguous at first, just as the book has ambiguity.
I now do think it was Radagast. Thru out the movie he was always showing up, unannounced, and always in the nick of time.
If you have read the whole LOTR book or even listened to the entire unabridged LOTR audiobook then watching all three movies is like watching a trailer of the book. Of course, they had to cut out a lot of the book but what irks me so much is that Jackson cut a lot from the book out just to write his own additional scenes to put in the movie instead.
Jackson was known as a monster movie maker before LOTR. People enjoyed the way he had done the effects and the miniatures of those movies. He could have made the scene where Gimli and the rest saw the old man standing at the edge of the scary forest into something spooky and mysterious but no! Aragorn has warned Gimli not to cut any living wood for the fore. Eomer had spoken of Saruman walking to and fro as an old man in the forest. Having them see the old man in white could have been very spooky but Jackson just cut it out. It would have taken only a few seconds if done correctly! After seeing the man in white the night before the travelers were even more jumpy about going into the old forest and it made watching the other man coming toward them while they were in the forest even spookier but Jackson misses that mark there as well. He was more interested in making Orks and battles.
Jackson did not like Tolkien’s “good” heroes and was too busy giving them faults and making plenty of monsters and battles to actually take the time to read the story and understand the foundations of that world.
Book Saruman is clearly bolder than his movie counterpart, wandering around warzones on his own!
Another big change from the books is that Strider doesnt break his toe on an orc helmet
The bit about hiding behind the rock makes little sense but I wonder if the uncertainty of who the cloaked man was made it easier, safer, and simpler to the audience to omit him. To flesh it out properly and not just have a Rings of Power-esque random scene may have required too much time and diverted the flow of the river a little too much.
My head-canon has Shadowfax mistaken in the dark for an old man. The horses then go and play together as old friends.
I always wondered why the Three Hunters didn't see the smoke from the pyre of orcs? A pillar of smoke on mostly open plains?
5:00 I think it matches the book because we don't know who's blood it is making Peter Jackson faithful to it.