What Israelis Fear the World Does Not Understand
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2024
- Earlier this week, we heard a Palestinian perspective on the conflict. Today, I wanted to have on an Israeli perspective.
Yossi Klein Halevi is a senior fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem and the author, most recently, of “Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor (www.harpercollins.com/product...) .”
In this episode, we discuss Halevi’s unusual education as an Israeli Defense Forces soldier in Gaza during the first intifada, the “seminal disconnect” between how Israel is viewed from the inside versus from the outside, Halevi’s view that a Palestinian state is both an “existential need” and an “existential threat” for Israel, the failures of the Oslo peace process and how the second intifada hardened Israeli attitudes toward peace, what Oct. 7 meant for the contract between the Israeli people and the state, the lessons and limitations of Sept. 11 analogies and much more.
Book Recommendations:
A Tale of Love and Darkness (www.harpercollins.com/product...) by Amos Oz
Who By Fire (www.spiegelandgrau.com/whobyfire) by Matti Friedman
The War of Return (us.macmillan.com/books/978125...) by Adi Schwartz and Einat Wilf
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Kristin Lin. Engineering by Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Jeff Geld and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.
How can you call the withdrawal from Gaza a withdrawal if you still control everything in and out of Gaza and the movement of people. You not in Gaza but control everything around Gaza (what goes in and what goes out) Gaza do not have control over their state.
Egypt does the same. Why is that? And why aren’t you angry with them too?
Immediately after withdawal there was large scale movent of palestinians from gaza to israel and no blockade. The blockade came after hamas's armed seizure if power in gaza
@@SN-sz7kw They called the blockade occupation. Well, now they've got an actual occupation.
When a state has declared war and is committed to your destruction And they are your next door neighbours, You are of course going to have closed Borders.gaza has been receiving billions of dollars in a which they have Turned into a large military state committed to the complete destruction of their neighbor.
Instead of building their own ports, They chose to arm themselves to the teeth and dig tunnel networks underneath schools and hospitals not for civilian use but for military use. Gaza also shares a border with Egypt And the egyptians keep that border closed for their own reasons.
Shows how little you know about Gaza! Your Judy a Jew/israel hater
I think there's also something that Israeli people do not understand about the members of the international community who are calling for an end to hostilities or say they are pro-Palestine: these people are not making an "either/or" choice. It's not that being for one group means that you're against the other (people who think that way exist, but it is the extreme minority). Most people are just seeing the violence and its consequences and asking for things to be more humane. Seen from the outside, Palestinians are sitting ducks and paying for crimes that the majority of them did not commit. The level of power that Israel has over Gaza also seems disproportionate, no water, no fuel, no electricity, no food, it looks cruel, it looks like a major power torturing a minority because it can. The situation is much more complex than that, granted, but it doesn't take away the fact that there is one side to this long-running conflict that seems to be suffering so much more. That's what people are reacting to. We're not asking for Israel to disappear or wishing any harms on Jewish people, we're just trying to make Israel take a step back and see the level of destruction and inhumanity that results from their current action. We're not arbitrating the past, who started it, who was more culpable at this point or that point, we're just calling for everyone's human rights to be respected in the present, and hopefully, that could eventually lead to peace down the line. Israel could be the hero in this story, but heroes aren't the ones who mercilessly crush their enemies, they're the ones who move things forward and find a better way. We believe in you, we know it can happen, but it will never happen until the fighting stops, you just have to decide if you're willing to be the leader in this or you'd rather perpetuate the cycle for decades to come because the "other guy" won't take the lead.
He does actually address this in the podcast.
He didn't even for once mention the horrendous tragedies that are taking place right now with a child killed every 10 minutes even if the figures are made up, and really this is a valid argument? It is scary that such a seemingly intelligent man still has this sense of superiority failing him to see these Palestimians as humans. Without addressing this very issue, we will see something like a dog chasing its tail.
why is it israel's responsibility to provide anything to another country that receives billions in aid but squanders it on terrorism ?? there are more arab citizens in israel (21%) than blacks in US (13%) and they have full rights there is no apartheid .. they don't want to leave a thriving democracy .. why does egypt close their border or jordan ?? why don't the other arabs help them especially the wealthy ones ?? how would the US react if mexican cartels shelled san diego & tucson ??
Very well said, my perspective exactly.
@@joanyoon4672
He also did not address the missiles that are kept flying into Israeli cities and civilians there as I write this sentence.
He also only mentioned the atrocities done by Hamas in October 7 in very general lines, not mentioning families where 3 generations of which were slaughtered, or Israeli women raped to the sounds of laughter, or people being beheaded, or Palestinians (not officially Hamas) celebrating these events.
He also did not discuss the end goals of Islam in any detail.
Lastly, for all the so called humanists of the world, humanism (and other isms) constitute a global perspective, it does not take sides based on gaps in education and personal psychology, and it applies to all humans in the world, Africans, Arabs that are no Palestinians, Kurdish people etc
Humanism is not about strictly about colonialism or the misconstrued black/white dichotomies or any other ones involving a binary and simplified perceptions of good vs. evil to make the people subscribing to them feel good about themselves. I would suggest making an effort to properly fathom the Kantian ethics, but I am not holding breath.
1:02:10 Wow! Nothing will change! As an American Jew I am so disappointed with this Interview!!!
Will thid be another hour that fails to deal with thebillegal settlements issue?
I'd love to see a series of podcasts conducted between Palestinian and Israeli civilians geared towards the sharing and listening to one another's experiences. The answer to this challenge, I feel, will be a groundswell of new thought emerging from the citizenry. Leadership has clearly failed. Ezra--I appreciate the space you've created this week to help us unpack all of this from different perspectives on the ground. Allowing well meaning and informed people speak at length about their POV is where it's at. Keep up the good work.
Please look up, *_"Corey Gil Shuster, The Ask Project"_* Corey asks questions to the different populations in Israel and the Palestinian Territories.
The Arabs would not agree. If anyone dared to attend he would be targeted as a ‘collaborator’ and ‘normaliser’.
they’re busy trying to survive who has time for a podcast
@@CrabLightning they had decades to have a podcast in. The only naive peaceniks are on the Israeli side. But that all changed now, thankfully. The only way to peace in the Muslim world is through strength.
@@secallenPalestine's Fatah is the peaceniks here. Israel leaders never wanted peace. Bone Break Rabbin agreed to that famous peace deal and that got him killed, not by Hamas but by Israel's own extremist group.Israel kepr dangling that peace-deal-carrot in front of Mahmud Abbas in order to 1,buy time to continue to steal land via settler invasion and 2. Have Palestinians do their dirty work of anti terrorism. Netanyahu kept throwing something at the last minute upon deal signing just to force Fatah to go, "hey this is not in our deal negotiation!" And Netanyahu would go, "take the deal or postpone the talk." Israel kept using this shitty maneuvre for over 10 years. Dangling the 2 state solution, as settlers keep taking lands while the talk drags on.
As a 25 year old Israeli i feel 100% represented by Yossi in this interview.
Yes. As a 36 year old Israeli, I remember the 2nd Intifada - my mom wouldn't let me go on buses, or go to downtown Jerusalem... And the heartbreak, especially of the Israeli left since the mid 90s. These days, I feel like my head is exploding - between wanting a two state solution and a better future and wondering if it is even feasible, knowing that we cannot control the WB and that it's not sustainable and hasn't been for a long long time.
Same, and I’m 54
How are u indigenous from the land? My Palestinian family fought Napoleon and The Crusaders... where were u guys when ur so called land needed u? Possibly in Khazaria😊
@@AbuSous2000PRlog off and seek medical attention immediately for your unhinged ahistorical rant.
Jews have lived in that region long before Islam was invented. For instance Judea.
@@AbuSous2000PR rofl you're arab. Arabs don't originate from said region and muslims don't convert. You're not native, youre just arabic liar.
the same Israelis ignore what the settlers are doing with impunity in West Bank.
@roc7880. What makes you think we ignore it?
@@dinorino2that it continues to happen and is routinely justified in any number of ways
@@ThatGuyMN yes, I know that, but it is also continuously criticized by the Israeli media and the Israeli political left, and I can prove it to easily.
I just happen to know that because I am a left-wing Israeli, and I can tell you that sometimes the behavior of the settlers towards the Palestinians (and also the behavior of Israel in general) is disgusting. The fact that this shameful situation continuous doesn't mean that is ignored.
@@dinorino2 well certainly it has been criticized, and I'm not saying all Israelis are ignoring it; but let's be real. The Israeli right wing dominates right now atleast. Many or most Israelis either are ignorant to what is really happening, indifferent to it, or fully support it. If that wasn't the case it wouldn't be happening.
Even the ones like you who are aware and against it are powerless to stop it. Our media in the US has also been more critical in recent times, but our leaders don't care and Netanyahu doesn't either.
Anyway, my point was, to say most
Israelis don't ignore or outright support the settlements is not the reality. I know there are many who don't, but it continues to happen, and now will expand after Oct 7.
@@ThatGuyMN I can't deny that the right-wing in Israel is currently in power, but the end of Netanyahu is near. I can't see how he will survive the after-effect of October 7.
This is on him. he was the man in change for most of the years since we went out of Gaza in 2005. He welcomed the stagnation in the peace process (which anyway is half-dead) so the main responsibility is on him. After he's gone the center-left will be in control and then we will (I hope...) promote an arrangement that will include a Palestinian state. One of the problem of the events of October 7 is that Hamas is no longer an entity to negotiate with. I mean, no Israeli prime minister will ever do that after the atrocities they've commited, and this is quite unfortunate because I thought we could reach some kind of arrangement with them regarding Gaza.
We need a trilogy to this - Amjad Iraqi and Halevi together, sitting down, just two informed, articulate individuals having an intelligent discussion. This would add to the world.
Wouldn't that be something? 99.99% of discourse on this has been in silos, and mostly by uninformed people.
Every time I'm on the cusp giving up on the possibility of witnessing the implementation of the Two-State Solution, another thought-provoking interview is posted by Ezra Klein.
This interview reminds me that the if we are to achieve this outcome, we've got to confront our deepest fears.
There will never be a 2 state solution. Ever.
Seems obvious to me that talk of two states is just that - talk. Two state was always just something used as a distraction to keep liberals occupied with hope and not reality.
Not everything is anti-semitism. If that’s all you hear you are going to miss valuable criticism.
Shouting "Gas the Jews" surely sounds antisemitic to me
Excellent point.
Ezra asking the tough questions, such as "Won't anyone think of the people committing the genocide?"
Excellent Interview
"The deep love and attachment that we have for the land proves that we're an indigenous people." What kind of crazy reasoning is that?
It sounds very sane to me when opposed to "we'll throw the jews into the sea"
And Israelis say the same about the Arabs. There is a lot of hate and anger on both sides and instead of focusing on that we have to focus on the pain and hurt underneath the anger.
@@stoor79 Yep. Netanyahu's map of a Palestinian-free Palestine is pretty blatant, eh?
this guy was completely unhinged. if this is the most reasonable Zionist position, God help us all.
The French settlers left colonial Algeria because of terror - because they had France. The PLO and now Hamas try to replicate that success, but they misunderstand - Israelis have nowhere else to go, so they can't be terrorized.
Not all narratives are equal. Some are more valid than others. And the narrative of atrocity in Gaza has no valid counter-narrative.
Excellent. I'm glad I took the time to listen to the whole podcast. Gives me an understanding of and appreciation for the Israeli perspective. I will share with friends. Thank you.
whats that perspective that you admire!! start from me what is there to admire?
@@mustafacetin77 Tenacity, persistence. That's about it. But let me say this however., How ignorant is it that a culture that prides itself as being 'God's chosen people' continue to hate and bomb an ideology year after year, decade after decade over and over and over again while expecting to produce different results each time?
@@mustafacetin77 she didn't say she admired anything. . .
He is a great example of human tragedy in the sense he only sees his side of story. He is clearly wrong that Hamas thought this horrible attack would break Israel and not unite it. Hamas knew it would anger and unite Israel. But it expected Israel to react just like now and loss the moral high ground and support of the World with the continuing death of Palestinian children and women. Hamas has no illusion to defeat Israel militarily, but it wants to gain the support of Middle East, which it did, AND the whole world to fight Israel for long-term ( wearing it down for decades etc).
The only support they gained was from the socialist unbelievers and their Shi'a allies. How is this a victory?
China never had the moral high ground and it advanced pretty fast within the last 20 years. If the west abandons Israel I'm sure they'll just pact up with whoever. When it comes to countries, morality is only a smokescreen it's all about strengthening your allies and weakening your enemies.
Israeli elites call Palestinians 'animals,' are even considering using nuclear weapons in Gaza for mass extermination.
Agree with your assessment of Hamas goals, but he was asked to talk about the Israeli view
That was Hamas' mistake. Israel's resolve won't be deterred by anyone or anything. And make no mistake, the US will make statements about humanitarian aid and the like, just for public relations. But in the end, we will back Israel all the way.
Props to the interviewer asking some great questions but man, if this is considered one of the reasonable Israelis then the state is done... If this is how they respond to what he just said it's the weakest of their enemies then there can be no future safety under these conditions.
That enemy just managed to serve us the worst single blow in our history though. Which gives you an idea of the mindset that it must now be made an example of, otherwise we will not survive here
Israel has nukes moron
@@itamarsharon I understand the mindset, I just don't agree with it. War crimes are wilfully being committed, Israel has lost global support and even America with all the war crimes they've committed following 9/11 is considering pulling support. Perhaps if Israel retaliated like this without US support/funding the deterrent logic could work however that's not the case and there would still need to be punishment for wilfully committing crimes. It's not enough that the current administration be ousted, major concessions will need to be made. I would not be surprised if Israel loses state status as a result even if they claim to beat Hamas. And I say claim because this 1000% has radicalized many against Israel, not just in Palestine but globally, it's been fuel to fan multitudes of flames
@@lastdonuts First of all, it's funny you are sure of war crimes, i guess taking Hamas's word for it, since they are the ones putting out info from Gaza. Second, if you think it's possible to fight effectively in a dense terror death trap such as gaza, with its tunnels, bombs,, crawling with gunmen, without causing unavoidable civilian deaths, you're either disingenuous or incredibly naive. Third, and i do say this with regret - if you think israelis care right now about who becomes radicalized, you don't understand what the country is experiencing right now. Israelis believe they MUST crush Hamas now, whatever the cost, or the country has no future. The hatred that may arise as a result is at the moment a non-factor. It's a worry for the future. Hezbollah and Iran are watching. In the Mideast, compromise and concession are read as weakness. This is the unfortunate truth that has been seen time and again.
@@itamarsharon as Bibi has said, after this current effort is over there will be investigations and consequences, what the world views as war crimes will be agreed then. Second, no I'm not saying casualties are avoidable but Israel has taken a very hard line approach with no sight of the end any time soon, what will be the civilian death toll by the end? 20k? 50k? 1948 had what, 10k civilian casualties over 9 months? Israel may dispute the current 11k death toll but I haven't seen them provide any estimates to counter that figure yet. The last part is what I'm afraid of. "Whatever the cost" is a very dangerous phrase that allows greedy rulers in power positions to get away anything. Whatever the cost to beat "only" hamas can easily turn into costing too much.
Thanks, guys. I learned some stuff. I hope my comments enlightened you a bit as well. Thumbs up. I'll watch the Palestinian video soon.
I was at the midst of reading “Letters to may Palestinian Neighbor” when the Oct 7 massacre broke. I had to stop reading it, it suddenly didn’t feel relevant anymore. But now after hearing his voice, and weeks passed, I may be ready to continue reading. It is an excellent book
I suggest you read what Max Blumenthal wrote about what really happened on Oct 07 before you walk away . Israel was not the compete peaceful victim and they killed most of their citizens . hundreds of their casualties were active military ; in tanks .
What got Israel so angry ( and America ) is how they breached their iron wall . Silenced their satellites and Surveillance system . For 10 hours . They lost control of an area twice the size of Gaza !!!!
That is unacceptable . This is why we are seeing the Gaza massacre
Informed, Thoughtful, Sane, Humane. Thanks: i need that so very much. 🙏🖖🏻
True understanding only comes through when we look at issues fron an opposite perspective. Mr Halevi, what would you do if you were Palestinian?
The offer from Olmert is the definition of a lack of seriousness.
Look at the offer. If I offered you a home but I control the hallways, would you take it?
Exactly
Ok, what was the counteroffer? oh right there was none
Ely, does or did it matter. Zionists want all of it and parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria as well. Israel was created illegally and continue to be illegal.
You can argue some Palestinians want all of the land as well but there are political parties in Palestine that want 1967 borders. How about if Israel supports them instead of actively supporting Hamas.
How about not helping HAMAS grow to its present state?
Love the format of the 2 sided discussion here. This has been informative and empathetic. Our high school history course used to be taught by 2 teachers: one ex commie and a republican. That is what we need in the world❤
Yeah, very empathetic. Doesn't say anything about how settlements make the two state impossible. Just killing babies in Gaza, openly calling for ethnic cleansing, and stealing land in the West Bank, and then talk about a hypothetical magical future of a two state. This is despicable.
This was not a 2 sided discussion. Interesting but 1 sided
To his point that it does not matter what the motives of the world opinions, it only matters the threat of them toward Israel. The same is true to the World, it does not matter Jew's intention, it only matters that 10X, 20X, or even 100X more Palestinian babies are killed by Jew. Again, this shows his human nature, we are lot more sensitive to our own feeling than the other side's.
Thanks for your bravery and honesty.
What bravery?
@@stevefazekas9800 I can see his bravery in expressing his complex and contradictory feelings towards the Palestinian side.It's not easy for someone to openly share such deep emotions. He was choked up and almost cried.
Everybody looks at this “conflict” from a contemporary history side. However if you acknowledge that the religious Muslim component of the issue is focused on conquering the world and that the first wave of conquests was in the first spread of Islam, then you will understand that we are witnessing the unconventional world war that is already taking place. I speak for Central Asia where it took 150 years to install Islam, wars of the Arab caliphate took millions of lives, destroyed the culture, the civilisation, and local monotheistic religions of Zoroastrianism and Tengrism, which peacefully coexisted.
Islam has a doctrine of conquering the world by the sword, which other religions do not. And the infiltration component of their strategy works in combination with the violent extremism sponsored by authoritarian, totalitarian regimes who are also using the western values of liberalism to their advantage.
The west is correctly relying on creating conditions for a melting pot for humanity but being able to defend itself militarily and institutionally from within and uniting the civilised world against medieval bigotry is extremely important.
It’s not just Islam. Christians live there too.
😂😂😂😂
“for the lack of an alternative, I trust the IDF.” Is it really trust when you feel like there is no choice?
So many complexities for all the people in this area!
The IDF are masters of lies
I think Halevi is really interesting, but it troubles me how his argument against the right of return basically boils down to "Arabs will not replace us".
No nation in the world has prioritised the safety of Jews. There may be examples of countries assisting in times of need but, generally, every country was happy to make Jews a scapegoat which is why there were so many pogroms. Even blood libel reached the Middle East before Zionism was conceived. There has to be a Jewish nation so there is never a repeat of the Holocaust. Allowing Right of Return would immediately make them a minority and put them at the mercy of an Arab majority that believes they’re evil Western colonisers that have stolen their land through ethnic cleansing, committed genocide and forced them into an apartheid system. It is naive to think the Arabs would turn the other cheek when they’re literally tearing themselves apart in neighbouring nations irrespective of Israel. Ironically, the Jews have been kinder to the Arabs in Israel than any nation was ever to the Jews pre-WWII but will be condemned as being guilty of the crime that was committed against them.
Disingenuous read on his statement. Jews are worried becoming a minority and face another expulsion or pogroms etc. Israel is the only safe space for jews. Muslims have 49 safe spaces with barely any jews because they expelled 800,000 jews from their countries from 1948 through the 50s.
But the argument is valid.
@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 If you're a fascist, sure
Keep in mind, ANY Jew, regardless of if his family is from Poland, Ukraine, Russia or the US with ZERO blood lines connected to Israel. An demand an Israeli passport . But a Palestinian born in Jerusalem now living in Canada cannot even visit israel
How about having Prof. Omer Bartov on your podcast???
Or Prof. Norman Finkelstein who's been advocating for the Palestinians for decades.
What? There hasn't been any comparable sacrifice on the Israeli side for the land.
Asymmetry, in all ways.
insightful interview
I really appreciate this conversation. It has certainly helped me to be more compassionate toward Isreal than I have been these past few weeks.
They do not share your values.If you are of the West you have not murdered 10,000 innocent Men ,Women and Children in the last month.The Propaganda is all over the West accusing anyone who criticises Israel as an antisemite.They have patented suffering.They have built a concentration camp in homage to their own horrific suffering and they steal land..for decades..
There’s a video from 12 years ago by the guardian, that shows Israeli citizens coming and taking over Palestine houses, and insulting children. Those 12 years ago. How can you have compassion for such monsters?
@@NazmusLabs ... and how can you have compassion for the Palestinians after what they did on Saturday October 7 ?
I mean, it was much much worse than "taking over houses, and insulting children", so you should have no compassion at all for them, right?
@@dinorino2 if someone came to your house and said it was theirs, taking it over, would you just stand by and not defend it? The oppression against the Palestinians have been going on for 75 years. So why are you having a double standard?
It wasn’t an attack. it was Palestine trying to defend itself. It was a cry for freedom.
@@NazmusLabsPalestine wasnt an independent state until the 80s because of diplomacy with Israel. Israel gave gaza and west bank autonomy in exchange for peace with egypt in the oslo accords. And what do the palestinians do? They kill the egyptian president for negociating peace with Israel. They kill palestinian groups, like fatah, for attempting a diplomatic route with Israel. October 7th was caused by the palestinian people deciding time and time again that they would rather die than negotiate and reach a diplomatic solution with israel that would give them more sovereignty and freedom than they have EVER had in their entire history.
Shalom Israel, fear not.
Best interview on the topic I've heard so far. Thank you.
Thank you, for this podcast!
“We have nowhere to go” really sunk home with description of indigenous people…having been exiled…and their state disappeared…
It took a month for this podcast to put on a centrist Israeli. Every other perspective, meaning pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli was covered x3, and the JVP/Jewish liberal angst/asajew/anti-“Likud” x10. One person in an entire month of nearly daily coverage of this issue.
Excellent observation!
better late than never?
This guy is a centrist Israeli?!?!😂
The New York Times and the US mainstream media in general have been overwhelming pro-Israeli. Ezra was trying to air the counter-viewpoint on his show, which I greatly appreciate. Given how lopsided the news coverage has been, I'm glad there are journalists like Ezra.
Even if 99% of the media coverage is in favor of Israel, Zionists will complain about the 1%.
i think that both the idea of a Jewish State of Israel, and a separate Palestinian one, will continue to provoke strife and conflict. What is needed is a secular Country where everyone has equal political rights. The notion of "Jewish Settlements" is a bad idea. Any person of whatever race, religion, and ethnicity should be able to live where he likes. 0:34
No one who is educated on the conflict thinks a single state solution is a viable option. It’s unfortunate that there can’t be that kind of harmony, but the reality is that it wouldn’t work.
@@TheQutapiwhy wouldn't it work? Ilan Pappé advocates for a one state solution, and I'd say he's incredibly knowledgeable on the subject.
The fact is, as it is now, 2 states will never work because 1)The Palestinians will never accept a smaller state and will always feel that they are being shafted by having their old lands stolen with no right to return or recompense, and 2) Israel's continued expansion into the west bank and bombing of gaza subjugating Palestinians and radicalizing far more into terroristic causes. Not to mention Israel will never let in the Palestinians because of the need for Jews to be the dominant religious and ethnic group in the area for it to be considered a Jewish ethnostate.
Having a secular state with free travel, reimbursement to those who have no homes to come back to, full citizenship for all people currently living in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, and equal rights for all would be best if peace was actually the outcome anyone wants here.
I'm not convinced that's the case.
You have an issue with the one Jewish state. There are 49 Muslim countrie, and most of them have barely any jews in them.
The Arab nations expelled 800,000 jews from their countries from 1948 through to the late 50s. Sounds like ethnic cleansing.
Israel has accepted every 2 state peace deal offered but the Palestinian terrorists reject through intifada terrorism.
Your one state utopia is madness.
@@ThatGuyMN Why so the Palestinians can gain control of the place, ethnically cleans the Jews, and turn the place into a failed state?
@ChivesMN as he says in the interview, without at least one Jewish state, Jews the world over are vulnerable to further Pogroms and massacres, as they always have been. No state other than a Jewish state will ever allow Jews in unconditionally at the next wave of antisemtic attacks.
Very good
Cerca mid 1800 , a Freemason, Christian vicar by the name John Nelson Darby promoted Dispensation Theology. Darby gave literal translation of the Biblical events. For example, Jews being the chosen people and return to the promise lands.
Thank you for this and for your previous recent conversations on this situation. They’ve been very informative and helpful to me and I deeply appreciate your attempt to be balanced and to provide in~depth, nuanced understanding. 🙏
Great interview and the guest summed it up perfectly. We were protesting against Netanyahu and his insanity and then October 7th and “now we’re all unified more than ever.” Pair that with reports that Israel was informed of imminent attack by Hamas days before October 7th and ignored them and it makes you wonder.
What source told you this?
it was stated by the interview here.
wonder what ?? that it was a deliberate action to do nothing ? this would not have been a one person decision ..
@@direwolf6234Egypt came out and said they warned Israel. Netanyahu immediately claimed “fake news”. Then when America confirmed Egypt warning Israel, Bibi quieted down but not after blaming other parts of Israeli government. Also there are no reports that a significant number of Israeli casualties may have been by Israeli military.
Again, very convenient that Bibi was about to be tossed out and now he has a unity government.
Only an imbecile would believe garbage like that. Reminds me of the days when I used to remove "Bush did 9/11 for oil" posters put up by low-IQ "truthers".
Great interview.
As a swede who grew with parents deeply involved in the pro-palestine cause, I am aware that I have much more immediate access to the palestinian perspective and palestinian narratives. This interview is extra valuable to somebody like me.
I get the point that it is hard to argue with people's subjective experiences. In some circumstances, in some ways, it may even be wrong to attempt it, to say in effect "your lived experience and your feelings are wrong and invalid". But there are still a point or two that I would like to push back against in Halevi's story. With all respect.
I don't agree with the way he conflates the state of Israel with "The Jewish People". I don't think that the fact that there was always people of jewish religion and ethnicity living in the region, is a meaningful argument for the idea that people with jewish religion or ethnicity from Poland or USA does have a right to "return" to Israel. I think that talking about The Jewish People as if it was a monad, a global collective thing, is in itself unhelpful. When he says that "Israel is the last, the best hope for the jewish people" I disagree on several levels. I don't believe that people who happen to be of jewish faith and/or background in Stockholm or Detroit are in any way dependent on the existance of Israel for their personal existance, either physically or philosophically. I don't believe that anybody should have to answer for the actions of the state of Israel who isn't a citizen of that state, anymore than I believe that they would need to concern themselves with whether Israel is a judaic ethnonationalist state or a secular citizenship republic.
That brings me to the second thing. I don't agree with the way Halavi equates the "existance of Israel" with the specific form of Israel as jewish majority state. I am against ethnonationalist states. I believe that a state should be founded on the principle of citizenship (like France or the USA), not as "national home of the [insert religion/ethnicity] people". There are ethnically swedish minorities in three countries that I know of, but I dont' want the swedish ethnic minority in Finland to move from there to their "true national home" of Sweden. I don't think it was a good idea to create a large state for the entirity of "The German People". I don't think it is a good idea, much less critically necessary one, to keep Israel as a state where jewish faith and/or ethnicity confers special legal status. I don't want to see Israel wiped from the map, nor it's people killed or evicted. I do want Israel to be a country where arabs has the exact same civil rights as jews. But Halavi talks about that possibility as if it would equal a giant mass murder of the jewish population. Not result in a mass murder: intrinsically equal to one. I can't accept that premise.
As a consequence I also don't believe in the palestinan "right to return". Sure, a diaspora that started 75 years ago and where people still have the keys to the houses where their great-grandparents lived, might be easier to argue for in court, than one which happened two millennia ago and where the claimants to the stolen estate use their religious faith as principal argument. But still. The houses the palestinians used to live in don't exist anymore. The people who live there now have lived there for three generations. We're past the statute of limitation. The ethnic cleansing and large scale theft of property that was a part of the foundation of Israel is a historic injustice, and there must be some kind of restitution. (And one could potentially be claimed, as some of the involved actors are still extant, or at least their successors. Unlike, you know, the Roman Empire.) But I don't think that it is meaningful to demand that person who lives in Beirut or New York shall have the right to "return" to land stolen from their long dead ancestors. Even if it is as recent as great-grandparents.
He also claims they will not survive as a Jewish people without the state Israel. So it needs to stay a Jewish majority state. I find it dubious how some Israeli Jews make these claims. Israel, I think in part due to its extremism, is currently one of the less safe places on earth for Jews. Certainly, looking at mortality figures. Jewish culture is surviving, thriving, valued, and protected many places outside Israel. It's like he represents less than half of the about 18 million Jews world-wide and makes this claim, at least implicitly, that Israel-bound Zionist-minded Jews are the only real ones. I feel that's part of the Zionist self-image, but it's also a weird position to me. To speak for everyone with such confidence: "Without Israel true Judaism won't exist." How dare you speak for everyone, when so many people clearly haven't moved to Zion. Even if I accept his claim, I still don't think the aggressive stance Israel has taken, makes Jews in Israel or abroad safer at all. There are always idiots who get confused and think Jews are the problem. Clearly, we should blame these people who confuse the state of Israel and global Jews. But it's still something that is going to happen at a population level (haters confusing Jews and the Israeli occupation machine), and pretending it won't, doesn't change its reality.
I agree with many of your points, particularly that Jewish people living outside Isreal should not be considered as part of the population Isreal consider their potential citizens. But I think you missed the historical context. Swedish people have always lived in Sweden and they have a country of their own for ethnic Swedish people, Jews did not. There is no valid comparison between Sweden and Isreal in this matter. Further, Jewish people voluntarily immigrant back to Isreal, often times because of the antisemitism in the countries they live. And tell me what kind of anti-Swedish discrimination overseas Swedish people suffer? You Must consider the Isreal/ Jewish case a unique one compared to other ethic/ nation state.
Nation building for Palestinians still have a long way to go. It is simply not there now. That’s why you have a ruling party, but never a real government that does its job. You have a civilian movement and military resistance, but not never a real war.
How can we the world help the Palestinians build a real, normal state/ government that can represent the best interest of its people, free from Iran, free from Islamic extremism? That’s the question.
@@Boymanjusri What autocorrect actually did for you was to promote you to jewfish. I was going to answer that I am atheistfrog. 😀
@@ronnynoneofyourbusinessgoo7892 Israel had no right to exist as a expansionist apartheid Jewish State.
Is Ezra Klein a Swedish Lutheran?
I have added significantly to the depth and width of my understanding of the history and complexity of this crisis.
HE is a typical example of security dilemma: in pursuing of your own security, especially the absolute security, you step on everyone else nearby and cause them to view you as an existential threat!
He did not avoid it enough, even after the hints given
Disappointed that nothing was said about the deaths of 10,000 Gazans.
Hamas’s numbers. They like martyrs apparently. They knew what was coming
@@roadwarrior280 It seems Israel has not denied the scale of its bombing, nor Hamas' numbers.
It's up to 24,000 at this date, 1/18/24.
@@marwar819 The problem is, that number comes from Hamas. I have zero confidence in anything they claim. They lie all the time. Israel lies too. We need neutral 3rd party verification.
@@roadwarrior280numbers that have been confirmed by US State Department and Israeli government within 7%.
because this isn't the first time remote control slaughter by Israel dontcha know.
your denial is self serving and absurd.
emphasis on self serving.
So wonderful to hear a Jewsish perspective, after hearing from Amjad Iraqi on a Palestininan one. Hats off to Ezra for fairness. What a huge contribution to democracy for helping with creating an informed electorate
With an emphasis on "a" Jewish perspective. I'm a Jew, and I found Halevi horrifying.
@@rosamundeandorfeo Really? you find him "horrifying"? In what way?
@@dinorino2maybe the fact his a Jewish man excusing an ethnostate ??? But who's to say .
@@yassine8935 well, "yassine", Israel should be an 'ethnostate' (a Jewish state) because history proves that Jews are unsafe among you "good people" (Christian, Muslims). I admit that I don't like this idea of an ethnostate, but it's a simple matter of survival. By the way: although being a Jewish state Israel is still ranked world's 29th best democracy...
@@dinorino2 1 yassine is my real name lol my dad's sunni Muslim from west Africa 2 I'm atheist , 3 Jewish people facing discrimination doesn't give them a right to have an ethnostate the same was ex enslaved african Americans did t have a right to colonize Liberia having financial and governmental control over the indigenous population running a slave like state similar to the one they escaped , if I would be against it if their african wtf would I be pro it if their non black jews ? isreal is an apartheid state even liberal org like amnesty international recognizes this,last time I checked apartheid doesn't equal democracy .
Very good title. That is our new world, the world of social media, in which people feel they have to make very strong statements, despite not having a clue.
I think a lot of people today know exactly what’s going on.
@@katherinebervera4790 What are your arguments? Because people have been living in other countries? Because we have less fake information? Because we use social media, the algorithms of which are created to educate us? Because politicans nowadays are in a competion to have the best solution to solve a problem? Because people are more educated as ever, with our school system being so much better than it was 50years ago? Videogames? Because all thos conspiracy theories finally are proven?
Tell me.
The combined west is breaking down. Israel is its spearhead in Arabia. See the picture?
Apartheid AND GENOCIDE. We know what is happening in front of us
This. It’s wearing me out. Our loud ignorance is dangerous. It is easily manipulated and enables malicious actors and agendas we barely notice until it’s too late..
This was a brilliant interview. So good to hear the Israeli side elucidated with sensitivity and relevance. Thank-you, Ezra.
Is there a valid counter-narrative to the atrocity Israel is committing in Gaza?
I enjoyed this episode but as an American I came away more disappointed and saddened. Mr. Halevi seems to use the Oct 7th as the start point in all this, but you can't. As horrible as the attack was it was just another chapter that goes back to the beginning, to the founding of Israel, even earlier. Granted the episode was about how Israelis feel but it seems we need balance on this topic. How many times have Palestinians seen attacks by Israel that resulted in the same numbers of deaths? " We had Netanyahu brag about "Mowing The Lawn" every once in a while, nobody ever called him on that. Why is it a joke when an Israeli says it but it's a call to arms when some Palestinian does? As I recall there were over 100 attacks on Arabs/Palestinians in the lead up to 48, attacks by the Irgun, The Hagangh, The Stern Gang as well as a few others all using the exact same tactics as Hamas, and really that never stopped and continues through today. The Sabra and Shatila massacres, dropping cluster bombs on refugee camps in Lebanon... I'm not trying to pick sides, I've always been in favor of an Israel but I have to say, these wars even todays, have always come across as lopsided with crazy kill ratios and you can see why support for Israel is fading.. It just makes you think that the problem with all this was in how Israel was reestablished, could there have been a better way? As an outsider looking in, this isn't a war, this looks more like a Civil War, 2 indigenous groups fighting for the same land. One state, equal rights, one vote. Too many lives ruined over this time to move on.
Most Americans are waking up and do not want out taxes sent to Israel
30:39 "destruction of Israel"
You are ignoring psychology and sociology and politics all at once in order to draw a really bad conclusion.
People who are being ethnically cleansed and held in prison by you are going to hate you. Saying, "We'll stop beating you as soon as you love us" is insane.
Instead, treat them as equals. There are equal numbers of Palestinians and Jews, more or less. So divide up the Land equally. Or live together. You know in your soul that either path would work. Yet you want to negotiate how much stolen land you should be able to keep.
Sad
Spoken by someone who clearly has no clue of the mindset of Hamas.
I'm sure they will put aside their charter, where they clearly declare their objective to murder jews and stop trying to get their own population killed just to wage publicity war, to hold hands and sing.
Tell me, who built a religious site on top of the other? Why did so many countries and cultures tell Jews to go back?
Unfortunately they told them to go back because they didn’t want them. That’s terrible especially leading up to Hitler’s holocaust. Many stories of “if we let some in, then more will come” by numerous western countries.
it's absolute delusion. this really shows you the extent of israeli brainwashing. i can't believe he's saying all this shit
Did you listen to him at all? Israelis' problem is they tried the 'give them land' thing a few times and they got terror in return. Can you blame us for being untrusting?
His words @10:40 provide insight into Jewish minds: "[Palestinians,] whom we don't see as part of [our] identity [...] in Israel." It's unclear if this is a Zionist Jewish view, or a view of all Jews. So, a 1-state solution is impossible if most Israelis don't want Palestinians inside Israel. Israel is not a secular democracy, since it does not welcome others who want equal rights. NOTE: Netanyahu rose to power by proposing (and enacting) laws to create two-tier citizenship in Israel - true citizenship for Jews, & less rights for non-Jews. Today Israel has 2 levels of "citizenship". Also, the designation "foreigner"/alien is assigned to most Palestinians not born in either Mandatory Palestine or Israel, or those who left the land (they lose their "2nd-class citizen" rights if they leave but return later) - while Jews & their offspring can never lose their "1st-class citizen" rights.
These & worse changes were introduced by extremist & right-wing Zionists. The founding speech by Ben Gurion clearly defined the new nation of Israel as created for all people and he gave everyone equal rights, no religious favoritism, etc. Today's right-wing Netanyahu/Likud Israel is a caricature of its progressive founder's vision & definition.
arabs living in israel (21%) have full rights .. no 2 tier levels ...
I guess this does help me to understand the Israeli mindset a little better, but im still not very convinced that this mindset accords much with objective reality.
There just isnt going to be a second Holocaust, either within Israel or outside it. Hamas and Hezbollah are not going to destroy Israel.
Many Israelis have been killed, but the suffering of Israelis is trivial compaired to what the Iraqis, the Syrians, the Lebanese, the Palestinians, etc have gone through in the past decades. You can say that the Arabs are partly to blame for their own misfortunes, but only partly. I just don't see how Israelis can fail to understand the responsibility that the US, the West, and they themselves have for this Middle East tragedy.
I just dont see how the Israelis, who have lived with the Arabs for almost a century, can just so completely fail to understand Arab grievences and just see Arabs as nothing but a mass of ravenous anti semites, with no motivations other than killing Jews and no grievences other than the existence of Jews.
I just dont understand why so many Israelis cannot look beyond their own anger and suffering and understand the anger and suffering of others.
There have been 30,000+ terrorist attacks in the name of Islam since 1980. If you think this is because of Israel building settlements in the West Bank you’re a fool. This is a deep seated ideological hatred of the “infidels” - including the west, the Jews, and even Hindus in India.
Exactly, we can understand how they feel but also understand its not a justification for Israel's actions nor in accordance with what we know about colonial power dynamics and genocide.
The anger and hatred from Palestinians came from the reality of losing multiple wars and became refugees, fair enough. Then don’t wage war, embrace peace. Negotiate, strike a deal. They wouldn’t.
@@Boymanjusri Well, its not so simple as that. What the Israelis offered at Camp David was not a good deal and was not a viable state. The Taba framework was more reasonable in term of providing the Palestianians with an actual contiguous and sovereign state, but it was in fact the Israelis who walked out of those negotiations when Sharon was elected and when the Second Intifada broke out.
The Israelis have always wanted to negotiate from a position of strength. They dont want to talk when the Palestinians are actively resisting.
I dont deny that the Palestinians had plenty of chances to sue for peace, but so did the Israelis.
It didnt have to get this bad. 30 or 40 years ago this level of hostility between ordinary Israelis and ordinary Palestinians just didnt exist.
Prior to the first Holocaust people were also sure that there will no Holocaust, you have no capability to know such things.
He intimated an unprecedented response is required. Peace, and compassion are the only responses that will eventually result in a resolution. Easier said than done, but it must happen. Not just in the Middle East, but in the US and around the world.
The USA is not longer an agent of peace anywhere
Us Christians just say that, we do not demonstrate love and forgiveness, ever
Well done NYT. Generals often talk about 'surgical strikes' in war, but it's usually just a euphemism for 'hope we don't kill too many civilians'.
This piece, however, was a genuinely surgical attack, skilfully cutting out any awkward ideas that might challenge Israeli exceptionalism, and leaving only the simple-truth.
15:44 "claims and counter claims about the offers made" - This cuts out any questions of what part the offers played by equating them with The Uncertain.
15:48 "and who rejected them" - This cuts out any questions of responsibility by equating both sides actions with The Unimportant.
15:50 "whether or not the state would have been a viable entity" - This cuts out any questions of the offers' strategic effect by equating them with The Unknowable.
15:54 "I don't myself have a very strong opinion on this" - This cuts out any question of journalistic analysis assisting the listener by equating the issue with The Undecidable.
15:57 "you can believe any number of things about how good the offers were" - This cuts out any question of challenging your own beliefs by equating them with The Undetermined.
16:03 "and whether or not the Palestinians should've taken them" - This cuts out any question of the offers' reasonableness by equating their rejection with The Palestinians, not the offers.
16:06 "and that can be separated from your belief about what follows: a multi-year terrorism campaign targeting civilians" - This literally attempts to separate your beliefs about causes from your beliefs about effects. That phrase, "your belief about what follows", is so skilful, avoiding any chance of implying that one caused the other; saying only that one occurred after the other in time.
This is the journalistic equivalent of the 'surgical strike', skilfully blasting the important details into The Uncertain, Unimportant, Unknowable, Undecidable and Undetermined, without any collateral damage to the intended message: Israel is justified, Palestinians have only got themselves to blame, don't ask questions.
I want to thank you for taking the trouble to write such a painstaken and annotated comment.
But I disagree with you. The dialectics would involve some toing and froing which I don't have the bandwidth for.
Just one point of "feedback" for you: Around 1:03:21, the guest talks about diaspora Jews and why they should rethink their relationship with Israel. As a 2nd generation refugee in India, though I am a Hindu who is secure in India and has no hope of returning to our "home" from which we were forced by circumstance only, to migrate ...... I _kind of_ reject the notion of safety.
Unlike the majority of Jews, Hindus have never lost their homeland. And India is not our promised land, because it was never taken from us.
But Yossi Klein Halevi, is wrong to assert Jewish _unsafety_ as a reason for re-migration. He is right elsewhere in the discussion to say that it is wrong of Palestinians to reject Jews as being native to _Palestine_ . I believe personally, that Jews deserve a secure homeland in Israel. I believe that the _wider Middle East_ is a dangerous neighbourhood for them where their security is _not guaranteed_ by their neighbours.
But "something must be done." The treatment of Arab Palestinians of Christian and Muslim faith in Israel is unacceptable.
We Indians are guilty of many things. But we have no doubt of the present injustice and criminality of the response to October 7.
The non-neutrality of Mr. Halevi's position is understandable. But it is not a surgical answer as you claim it to be.
This is a small counterpoint to your certainty of his efficacy. Thanks for taking the trouble. It must have taken you some time.
🖖🏼
HI, and thanks for taking the trouble to respond to my post in such a civil manner. It's a rare but valuable thing on the net.
However, I think we may be talking at crossed purposes. I wasn't referring to the guest, I was talking about the host, Ezra Klein.
I think what Ezra Klein said between the timestamps I listed seeks to draw a line separating what some might say motivates the violence from the response it provokes. That risks contributing to a vicious circle where each side ignores the others motivations and believes its own actions are a justified response to an unprovoked act.
To me, Ezra Klein seemed to deny the importance of all the issues he mentioned between 15:44 and 16:06. The language he used dismissed opposing views by combining them, as if "claim and counter claim" simply cancel each other out, leaving nothing of importance. Then he actually told us that we can separate our beliefs about those issues from our beliefs about the violence that followed, literally denying that any connection between them should be considered.
I find it difficult to believe that a professional journalist at the NYT could accidentally have chosen language which so perfectly shut down one side of the question, separated it from the other, and then opened that other side up for discussion as if it existed in isolation. That risks framing one side as victim, justifying further violence, and continuing the cycle.
Imagine if, instead, Ezra Klein had said:
-
"You can believe any number of things about whether or not rocket attacks cause significant damage to property, or if the taking of hostages is or is not unlawful, and I honestly don't have a strong opinion about that. But you can separate your beliefs about those things from your beliefs about what preceded: a multi-year struggle by a beleaguered nation to resist an overwhelmingly superior military aggressor in the only way that was available to it. And so I just wanted to spend a moment on that. Some people have compared the Palestinians' struggle with that of the resistance in the Northern Ireland war..."
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It's an alternative point of view held by some, but one which I feel is just as dismissive of one side's suffering and the other's motivations, as Ezra Klein's was.
However, this is just one example, and I felt one of the recent podcast was much more even-handed.
I just think we should be more challenging of the media we consume, they are only human after all.
@@narkelnaru2710
@@richtourist
Oh gosh. Let me respond when I've read your response properly and manage to carve out time.
Best wishes. ✊🏼🖖🏼💐
To quote one of the greatest Israeli minds, Prof. Harari: " This is a very complex situation." I send my love to the Israeli people.
you know when this stopped being "complicated"?
three months ago.
Oh Ezra. I have had tears in my eyes most of this day -- first from having run into videos on X of somes parts of the immediate aftermath in Israel of the October 7th Massacre, and then listening to this important and heartfelt conversation/interview. Now I can barely breathe for crying. I understand so much so better Israel's situation, reaction, and dilemma thanks to you and your guest. Thank you again for what you do here.
As an Israeli, a left wing Israeli, I have to say that I broke down during this episode.
Israeli elites call Palestinians 'animals,' are even considering using nuclear weapons in Gaza for mass extermination.
There was never an Isreal. It's stolen land from the true jews who with time became Christians and Muslims. Palestinians are the true owns of this land. That is why Isreal out law DNA test.
How can you understand when there was no mention of settlements and the open air prisons on Gaza. Even more importantly, how can this slaughter make Israel safer. Isn`t 10 to 1 winning the war?
@@stevefazekas9800the great thing is that these conversations are about listening to the other side, not winning an argument. The failure to acknowledge the narrative of the other side is the root of this problem
Extra ordinary interview. Thank you.
56:03 The delusion. What have you done to the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank? You don’t make sense.
Excellent, thank you.
He left out who, exactly, was doing the violence during the right to return march
Yossi Klein Halevi seems like a very nice guy but I feel that he has truly and dangerously lost the plot.
In 1933 Jews entered as refugees. Original documentations of Refugee status issued to the incoming hews , dating back to 1933, posted online.
I just want to say this is the best podcast I have heard so far on the topic of Israelis-Palestine conflict.
I hope to hear more opinions from the Israelis side.
I also hope you can interview several Palestinians --ask them what kind of solutions do they want. Do they really all want the final destruction of the Israelis state? Or they would like to coexist with Israelis? If so, how? What’s their preferences? What do they demand? What are their fears? What are their bottom lines…
36:19 This was Will not restore deterrence 🤦♀️
This narrative presents a time line from the point of view of a relaxed strong self confident nationl. But if you had to experience the life of living in the conditions of a crowded prison, there is a differnce perception of time in these two situations.
True. Half of these claims the speaker can't back up, or don't make sense. I don't think he is talking completely in good faith. All the bla bla, we are so great. Only within his Israeli echo chamber. I get Ezra isn't pushing back, the Arab Israeli was allowed to speak his mind last time around too, and Ezra interviews fantastically well, but some of this strikes me as fundamentally deluded I wish he had gone a bit Socratean on this dude. Zionism to a newcomer definitely has elements that are insane on the face of it
@@ronnynoneofyourbusinessgoo7892 I go from one side to the other with each video I listen to. I sympathise with Ezra who seems to want. Some escape coming to America, but. traditional memories can’t be escaped, but they can be controlled. I felt similar emotions escaping the Black White thing…but there’s always one more bias or prejudice…like whack a mole.
What are you trying to say? Unclear. Gaza was not a prison until Hamas made it so.
@@itamarsharon I’m referring to the conditions which encouraged such a poisonous party to grow. Just like cancer
SO how did Palestinian people get out of this open air prison and invade the rest of the civilized world? And now we know why Arab countries refuse Palestinian refugees
If I was an Israeli and I had citizenship in another country, I''d move, as swiftly as possible. There is no solution to this issue, its just going to get worse for both sides.
Yes, that's why the claims of "indigeneity" are so laughable (quite aside from the fact that the Zionists even billed themselves as a colonial project). They're only indigenous as long as they have everything they want and life is good for them there. That's also why Israelis see it as reasonable to expect Palestinians to leave what's been their home for generations to go to other Arab countries - because that's what _they_ would do the second things aren't going their way. And I say that as a Jew.
AGAINST GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE, TODAY !
AGAINST ALL HUMANS, TOMORROW !!!
Pfft. Hamas is a threat. Israel financed and propped up Hamas into power and overthrown fatah in 2007 because ISRAEL was receiving pressure for a two state solution and fatah was for a two state solution. Israel financed Hamas to take control of Gaza to squash the two state initiative. And Israel has been indirectly financing Hamas up until 2009. So Israel absolutely needs to be held accountable for that.
What the world understands very well is that the Palestinians will akways fight for their freedom as long as they are oppressed, tyranised and treated unfairly by the Israelis.
Thank you. I was raised Unitarian, which means I am most like a secular Jew, non-Christian and humanist, and I read Exodus (Leon Uris) at 15, an impressionable age, and after a childhood hearing stories of WWII and Anne Frank, which my parents saw as a Broadway play after the war. I am pro-Israel, and anti Netanyahu, in the same way that I am an American patriot and anti-Trump. I think the settlers are wrong; I dislike authoritarianism and the patriarchy, and I ache, I truly ache for the people caught between the disastrous actions of poor leaders, both sides, everywhere. I thank you for the reasoned and thoughtful discussions you give us, to better understand the tragedy and possibility of this part of the world.
Palestinians would actually seen to have some pretty astute leadership considering that the world had forgotten about the immense suffering of the folks over in Palestine until they managed to reverse that whole situation on one single day. Especially impressive considering their circumstances of thei last 75 years. The rest of the world are finally starting to get outraged at the conditions imposed upon them from Tel Aviv and the so called settlements.
@@SofaKingShitSadly, it's true that no-one listened when protest was non-violent but now people see the reality of the Zionist state and things might finally change
Unitarians really were humanists, once...
29:00 "Acceptance of the Jewish people as indigenous"
Huh? What percentage of Israeli Jews' great-great-great grandparents lived in Palestine? I'll bet it's around 5%. That, sir, sounds colonial, not indigenous.
Demanding that others bleat falsehoods just because you want to be indigenous, too, is putrid. I was born in America. But I am NOT indigenous. I put on my big boy pants and deal with it. Why don't you?
And the two-state solution has been on the table for 75 years: the UN partition plan of 1947. Israel has already pretended to accept it, and I am 100% confident that Palestinians would accept it with dancing in the street and total commitment to stopping violent elements in their society.
See? Your problem is that you would NEVER consider a fair division. Or would you accept the 1947 partition plan, with negotiated alterations?
And your other problem is that you literally made protest illegal or fatal.
Of course, I'm sure King David was palestinian too.
When does being indigenous begin and end? Judaism originated in this area. So did Hebrew. Most Israelis can trace their ancestry back to the immediate area.
@RichardLewisCaldwell If you're not indigenous to the USA you must be indigenous to (let's say) the UK, despite being generations removed from being born there. Isn't that what Jews are claiming when they say they are indigenous to those lands? Albeit a much, much longer time has elapsed and, despite preserving their culture, their ethnicity has blended with Europeans.
@@jellyrcw12I suppose the same question might be posed to many peoples. For example, my family fled Ireland during the famine of the 1840s/50s after likely having been there for 1000 years. At the time, they were part of about 1 million people who fled, and 1 million who died, out of a population of about 8 million (and the leaving of Ireland continued for decades after that, and their population lies at about 4 million today). The desecdants of those 1 million refugees is estimated to be likely in the tens of millions at this stage.
I also (like many Irish Canadians and Americans) have been to Ireland multiple times. I've seen the old homestead and been in their old one room stone cottage.
Am I considered indigenous to Ireland? I think, most people would say absolutely not.
Google "Mizrahi Jews". 50%+ of Israelis are Middle Eastern from Arab countries that expelled them in 1948. India/Pakistan split involved a lot of people moving who are indigenous to the general area. Same here.
Excellent interview
This episode filled in many gaps in my knowledge. It has helped me to understand much better the Israeli response. Until this episode, I was very unsympathetic about the Israeli response to 10/11/23. I understand Israel's response more than I ever have and I have also adopted a stance that does not "blame" Israel for its response. This has been the single most informative and helpful source of information that has helped me to understand the current conflict. I feel that the "lights" have finally been turned on in a room that was once very dark in which I was bumping into furniture that I couldn't see. I feel less heavy and more enlightened as a result from this episode. Please do a follow-up on this if you can. Thank you for this episode.
Yes, I felt like I understood their response as well. But the feelings of racist superiority and the "god-given right to seize land" came through in this man and I think is reflective of Israeli society.
@@mikei6605 There are no feelings of racist supriority, Jews and Arabs originate from the same semitic race. And Jews are not a race today, as they are consistent of all races.
@@mikei6605 It is absolutely not reflective. The largest bloc of population in Israel is secular, and we don't think we have a god given right to be here, but is it REALLY that much to ask to have a tiny country in order to NOT be slaughtered? Zoom out on the map and you will see 1000x the territory of Israel around us being islamic countries. How come everybody suddenly cares so much about a tiny 500km long by 10-50km wide piece of dirt that was "stolen"? Why dont the 1000x larger countries ever want to take in the palestinians? spoiler alert, because they use them as a scapegoat for the west to blame us, without ever actually caring about the palestinians.
Believe me, i would prefer if we were given land in somewhere safer like a small piece of Canada or the US, but if you were surrounded by a billion people who want to ethnically cleanse you, you would do the same as we did.
@@razhemo4191geography does not permit apartheid! Hope this is not difficult
@@jacobjorgenson9285 the word "apartheid", it doesnt mean what you dimwits think it means. It's used to describe a systematic denial of rights from an ethnic group.
Palestinians have all the rights Israelis do. they own property, they get welfare, and they even voted in elections until they elected a dictator that cancelled them ever since.
Go read some books or wikipedia or just go visit israel before spouting words you have no idea about.
It is incredibly disturbing how this man discusses with so much sympathy the “existentialist” threat that Jews are feeling after Oct 7, but fails to see that for the last several decades, this is precisely what the Palestinians have felt as they experience the insidious, systematic loss of their homeland.
The world doesn’t need to understand anything. The rest of the world needs to butt out of the Middle East to let the people there settle their differences without international meddling.
Very deep and moving amidst the noise. Thank you.
What's with the Kid glove questions, Ezra. I know you need to glaze his ass up in order to keep him yapping but you completely not mention anybody else in the Palestine governing party. You only talk about Gaza and Hamas. No West Bank, no Fatah, no moderate Palestinians. Not even the more moderate factions within Hamas. Without many of these topics, this video can only be deemed as a propaganda video for Israel.
Brilliant honest discussion
Best and most informative discussion I have heard so far. Keep up the great work!
Wonderful conversation. Thank you
20:55 I would like to point out that this metaphor could be mirrored through America and the western world having immense power over the Middle East. America is Israel’s partner and if anything happens to Israel America will be the one to save the day. We’ve seen what America done to the Middle East. What makes you think they won’t do it again w their best friend?
With all due respect to the American sent aid to Israel.
America never had and never will have boots on the ground for Israels survival.
And none even suggested such a thing.
@@reuvenpolonskiy2544 America has sent BILLIONS of dollars of aid to Israel. We’ve already seen Americas war on terror.
What an idiot statement.
ThThere is only one reason for the senseless deaths of innocent children - gas and oil. The deposits that lie in the sea behind Gaza are needed to guarantee a long-term supply, which is also necessary to enable the poorest people to have a better life in addition to the profits on the stock market. And at the moment all sorts of countries are fighting over these raw material reserves. It is certainly true that these areas belong to Palestine, but competitors such as Turkey, Lebanon with its Hezbola or Iran are also undesirable. The construction of another canal parallel to the Suez Canal also makes sense in this context, at least for the profiteers and for the necessary supplies. India also needs these reserves so that its economic development can continue to be guaranteed and should be positioned in such a way that it represents protection against the power of China. Basically, it is good that there is an outcry and more morality and humanism are being demanded, because it is humanity that connects us all and this must never be lost. The use of comparisons to the Holocaust to justify further murder is more than shameful and forces the Germans into a position that historically prohibits them from taking a different position. Apart from the fact that banks and asset managers can exercise more power than politicians whose job it is to represent people and humanity globally. That business people value money and power more than protecting lives is evident from all the wars and it seems that these people are more in love with money than with the lives of others. Have you forgotten that you are also mortal beings? Maybe we should all, including the ladies and gentlemen who are responsible for all this misfortune, understand that we all only live on one planet and that it makes more sense to create a global peace with equal rights for everyone and the right to enough food Water for everyone. We should see this as the main task. Citizens of all countries, including China, Russia and Iran, are interested in this. Reducing inhumanity and weapons is also only possible with cross-border friendly relationships with all religions. It's obvious that the existing powers are standing in the way and I don't know how they can be convinced, but I do know one thing. All people want to live in peace with one another, everywhere and at all times. We haven't learned anything, or absolutely nothing, from all the wars.
I can't wait for you to do an episode on "What Afrikaner Settlers Fear the World Does Not Understand".
Neither Herzl nor the Jews interested having a place to hang their hats were interested in a place called Palestine.
37:20 Yup! Israel will never go
Back to the “cabin in the jungle” the jungle is now in the cabin from here on in… 😉
I do find it funny how he starts to get really angry about the right to return. It’s seems that’s all their biggest fear. From “Arab Wombs” to conflating Oct. 7th and March of Return as the same thing. From liberals to hard right conservatives, one thread seems to the connecting mantra.
Yup, they don't even try very hard to pretend they care about democracy or international laws. They believe they deserve special treatment.
I hate podcasts. How hard would it be to put cameras on these two guys?
Arafat didnt accept the offer because it was nor a fair partition. No offer from Israel is fair its alwsys advantageous only to Israel
I wish it were possible to require US elected officials to listen to your podcast.
This is such a clarifying episode. Some big takeaways for me were (a) the guest, in a thick Brooklyn accent, insisting that Palestinians recognize the indigeneity of all Israeli Jews; (b) the guest speaking with clarity about the Right of Return (and in no way questioning its historical legitimacy) only to demand that it be abandoned in any Palestinian negotiation; and (c) the guest's out-in-the-open advocacy for what is essentially demographic hygiene: a Jewish state that is democratic insofar as it keeps Israeli Arabs electorally powerless. A succinct and unapologetic distillation of modern Zionism, annually backed by billions in U.S. aid.
@ianrcopeland as a Jew who lives in Israel I must say that points b. and c. make perfect sense:
The Palestinian Right of Return obviously can't be implemented, mainly because it means a bloody civil war that would make the current events in Gaza look like a walk in the park. Regarding point c. I don't know why you claim that the Arabs are "electorally powerless" after Israel's 36th government (Bennet-Lapid) was possible ONLY thanks to the support of the Arab party "Ra'am" led by Mansour Abbas.
In general we the Jews deserve a country with a Jewish majority. It's a simple matter of survival. I'd rather have a less democratic system in Israel (which is still ranked 29th best democracy in the world...) then not having a Jewish homeland at all, and be totally dependent on you 'good people' ...
He has a Brooklyn accent because he probably grew up in Brooklyn. Is that really your first takeaway, that growing up somewhere other than your homeland negates your indigeneity? That an indigenous American with a Southern accent can't be indigenous to their ancestral lands in the West? You can decide all you want what meets your qualifications (as if they matter) for who is indigenous to where. But for Jews, this isn't political, it's personal. The attachment to the land of Israel has been ingrained for thousands of years and they will cling to their land no matter how many places they are expelled from and no matter how many people insult them by telling them their identity is illegitimate.
It’s incredible how entitled they are while using their religious lies to justify genocide and apartheid.
I noticed the same, with the exception of the accent.
What I take from this interview is that, when it comes to Hamas, Isreali's just aren't listening.
P S. The ISIS analogy is a terrible analogy. ISIS stood for Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. ISIS was "destroyed" by denying this state from those who wished for it. By expelling the interlopers who wanted to establish this state. Is this solution possible with the Palestinian people?
@mozartsghost5027 In fact, ISIS has shown a good deal of antipathy towards Hamas because of the latter group's flirtation with democracy. Meanwhile, Hamas is religious-nationalist in cast, focused on Palestine, while ISIS's aims are far more expansive.
Already in the introduction the speaker decided upon talking about the occurrence in a way that very simply doesn't tell the truth.
I am not upset about this. But I really wonder if he's able to listen to his own recording and hear through "my ears". He doesn't need to walk in my shoes, they don't fit.
It is December 12 2023. I don't know when this recording was made. There is now not just a massacre in Gaza. It is to painful for me to not write about this now before I listen to the "Israeli, Zoinist" side of the story. GAZA is not a massacre it is the difference between hell and a desert wasteland. Hell is made by humans and deserts are occasionally natural as weather conditions change on a changing earth. Israel is changing Gaza into hell. 6,000 dead children in almost 60 days. The fear of Covid was nothing to those children. Now the fear of the airplanes, drones and helicopters is over too.
I shall try to listen. I am not very good at quietly listening to insanity, especially when the speaker is believing in war as a Christian or holy alternative to a 80 year old problem. The roots of Zionism are far past 1948. I believe that I have done my research adequately.
Okay I am sorry about the conflict in this world. Stress is gravity itself if abundance is not shared conflict is the result. People don't have to be predatory.
I couldn't take Halevi seriously at the point that he dismissed all diplomatic efforts by Palestinians as "not serious." His complance and hubris, at this particular moment, is impossible to listen to. I don't think NYT listeners should be subject to guests who evince such disdain, especially when we've heard that line over and over and over again. I say this as a Jew.
*complacency,* not complance[?]
Why do the NYT listeneres should not be subjected to facts?
And why do you need to say this as a Jew? If you were saying this as an Askimo it would have been diferent?
Im 39 minutes in and hearing this man speak im seriously glad ive been doing research on the occupation of palestine since 2021 and really in depth since oct 7th because if i didnt know any better i would genuinely think palestine was a seperate country like Lebanon or syria the way isrealis and there defenders talk about it and not an occupied land people from all over the whole of palestine have been pushedinto gaza ( 750,000 al nakba refugees living in a 25 mil by 5 mil border with over 2 million citizens ) and the west bank .undedstanding this "conflict" as a settler colonialist occupation really cuts through all the liberal bs about the isreali state and "its right to exist " as tho putting jewish infront of ethnostate makes it ok . Free palesinte 🇵🇸
Jewish people around the world haven't been this connected for many years, if ever
I think that someone underestimates a lot of people who do understand the extreme reactions that result from trauma. This looks to me to be COLLECTIVE trauma. Am I missing something else?
You're missing something only if you don't realize that way too many people on both sides are traumatized beyond repair...
You are spot on in my opinion.
75 years. That is generational trauma on both sides. I do believe jewish people carry 2000years of pogroms, hounting..it just ended with holocaust..it is so very deep seated trauma. BUT, as there are 4th generation of palestinians born in refugee camps in lebanon or jordan, they've passed the treshold for generational trauma too. Israel and more than Israel: the world made this. Were they expecting palestinians to forgett who they were, where are they from, their homes? Even jewish people whose suffering is even longer didn't forget their roots, how could palestinians? I am from antifa country and say only crazy iliterate person can deny holocaust, but they are oppressors to palestinians. They took lives of generations of those people and still do. They are humans too. Not animals as Netanyahu said.
@@joejohnson6327 I know what I see, as well as what I, myself have experienced.
@@kristinmeyer489 I see an unresolvable conflict stemming from transgenerational trauma. Israelis & Palestinians remind me of my deeply damaged parents, who abused each other & their children all their lives.