I’ve had the pleasure of flying with James to ferry a customers plane to maintenance. He’s a great guy and awesome pilot. His insight as an aviator and service as a business owner are unmatched.
KC135R crew chief here, as well as an A&P, and SEL PP.... Yea, It is very hard to find a good A&P that you can trust. They are out there, but when you find one, they are worth gold!! Thank you for touching on this topic!
Blessed to have a great A&P/IA at my home airport who welcomes owner assist annuals and appreciates pilot/owners with more than a passing knowledge of their aircraft.
Been and A&P for 35 yrs. civilian fixed wing, and helio's, now retired. Still love wrenchin' and flying them. What got me stunned was when we were trying to hire some new guys, (we were a Bell Helicopter repair station), half the people didn't even show up after they said they would, and 3 came in, shook hands, all was good......and they never came back....what the crap. No work ethic I guess. Good luck ya'll.....it's a sad case for sure.
They probably found better paying places, maybe they applied with you guys as they were waiting on Southwest or United to call them and once they got the call they're gone.
My father is a A&P/IA he left that field and went into hvac in the 90’s and made more money. I looked into getting my A&P for my own use cause the money in the field isn’t there. I’m a professional auto mechanic with many certs and I know guys who change oil all day that easily make more money than a A&P at some GA fields with minimal tools. Perhaps they need to split up the umbrella of the A&P cert.
Hello! 26 year old CFI and A&P here; and It’s been a lot of work to be able to say that, believe me. (3+ years OJT) In my own opinion, the mechanic shortage is a greater issue than the pilot shortage. Unfortunately, we live in an age where a lot of folks that could otherwise make great mechanics, don’t want to use their hands for a living. Another problem we face is that there are not many organizations or schools offering scholarships or opportunities to the equivalent of flight training. I certainly don’t have the solutions, but do think that it needs more exposure and a the paths and resources spelled out better to those interested. Also, I don’t think it would hurt if the world slowed down a bit.. Pilots, take the time to learn how your airplane works, not just how to work it. A&P’s, take the time to teach owners/pilots about proper aircraft maintenance and mechanics.
Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. Great interview. Sounds like a great shop. Thank you for a great interview. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
College was pushed so hard and trades jobs were considered lesser jobs for the “losers”. I remember people calling me a “grease monkey”. Now days the shortage has gotten pay up higher than a lot of college graduates. Unfortunately, mechanics at car dealerships are getting paid more than A&Ps with normal working hours and off on holidays and some weekends. Who wants to work nights, weekends, and holidays? Maybe not in GA but pay is comparable to some retail jobs.
I regret my 40+ years as an A&P. Initially in the early 80s there were massive mechanic layoffs so I had to work at a powersports dealership with some spotty GA work. Finally got on with an airline but the next several years was all night shift surrounded by layoffs and getting bumped out of companies and positions. Yup, over 23 years of night shift working holidays and only a third of the weekends. I eventually went corporate to escape those things and more, but retired barely making 26/hr with massive experience and high standards. ALL of my friends in other trades made more than me, with weekends and holidays off. The rich corporate (and GA) customers are cheap and fight you for every penny. The shops bend too much, as those same customers don’t even blink to pay more for car repairs. Aircraft maintenance is not a good career, I regret it and should have gotten more pilot ratings and done that.
Jesus that sounds horrible. Do you think you might have been better off working for a small business doing GA work? I've been thinking about that path, working, for an airline just isn't appealing to me.
With MOSAIC, aircraft that will be considered 'light sport' should require a 'light sport' mechanic for maintenance. In essence, if you go to A&P school you are able to work on any aircraft from a Cessna 150 to transport category aircraft with the airlines. Since the airlines pay much more that your local GA maintenance shop...there you have it...a shortage of technicians. How to solve it, make the A&P similar to the pilot ratings. A private pilot is different from an ATP. MOSAIC is the opportunity to fix this shortcoming. Thoughts?
The problem with that is how do you delineate the difference between a MOSAIC deemed Light Sport 172 or a regular certified 172. From my understanding of MOSAIC, it all depends on the pilot flying the Aircraft. Solo or one passenger, you can have a LSA ticket. Put two passengers in it, you need to have a Private ticket or better. Same airplane different scenario.
Type ratings for A&P has been proposed in years past and failed miserably with Part 66. I have seen nothing in the MOSAIC NPRM that proposes this type structure, so I imagine there is little chance that it will happen.
Unfortunately no, from what I've read the sport pilot mechanic cert is actually going to be more rigorous and difficult to get... For reasons. It seems like a lot of people haven't noticed the added regulations and requirements the FAA wants to add to the LSA category for often no reasons at all. As it stands we will get bigger, better LSAs that are more expensive to get and more expensive to maintain. I don't see how it will be cheaper or better than a private pilots license. Unless you can't meet medical. The whole point of LSA is cheaper to operate and maintain which is changing.
I hear about so many crises in aviation, it's tough to tell what sensationalized and what's a legitimate concern. The pilot shortage! Controller shortage and fatigue! A&P shortage! CFI shortage! Aircraft and part unavailability! The only thing we seem to have enough of are aviation influencers and TH-camrs!
I’m looking for a career change and would excel being an A&P but haven’t found any scholarships for people my age! And avionics would likely be my goal.
The root problem is that American Culture undervalues maintenance as a profession. Poor pay and lack of respect. The general public connects maintenance to painting and floor sweeping! Have you ever heard of a PHD in Maintenance?
I don't really think the airlines is really that great pay either. They are too busy throwing bucket loads of cash at their pilots to worry about the guys working on the aircraft.
@@theflyingcrewchief I'm on year 2 payscale at United and with some overtime I already make more than some DOM's at a GA shop. Also if I work the hangar I'm allowed to fix whatever squawk I find vs having to get approval from a private customer.
It isn’t always pay either. Corporate mech now, but old GA shop raised pay a lot, but then cranked up the stress and stupidity, so I left. Make the same now and way less stress, and not pressured to do things using “alternative procedures “ to the maintenance manual.
@@skyboy1956 I run the commercial side of a construction company and plan on retiring in a couple of years . How did you keep working full time and go to school?
I have to apologize. This A&P crisis is my fault. I got mine in 2000 and pretty much immediately started talking all of the knuckleheads that expressed interest OUT of this career field. I feverishly tried convincing them that there's more job security managing a Taco Bell and they should look into that instead. As a pilot and aircraft owner, I do find my self very handy and useful to myself! LOL Good luck to all the other's trying to find A&Ps.
I recently did a career analysis going into A&P. It did not go well. While I am an instrument rated pilot and typical aviation nut....the financial numbers still need to make sense. The time and money cost of the 2 year certification coupled with marginal rates relative to sooooo many other things I could do with no certifications required just left me with little interest. The local shops and schools were all saying they REALLY needed good people, yet when we got to the conversation about money, the numbers were not good. I moved on and easily making more than most 20 yr A&P's but without any special certificates that took 2 years+ along with a pile of money (or student loans) to get. Seems ridiculous. The rates really need to be inline with the challenge and expense of becoming an A&P - it is difficult and time consuming.
Nobody wants to be an A&P because the pay is low. Most trades have a union. I’m not aware of an A&P having that. When I got into the trades, I Started at $25/hr first day of learning, plus per diem. Now I’m at $75/hr. All overtime is double. As a pilot, I would love to get my A&P, but then I could’ve survive.
Experimental category all day long with repairman's certificate if applicable. I don't trust some mechanics. It's my butt on the line. At the very least, I want to be there throughout the process. My local airport does not allow you to be there at all when they work on your airplane. Crazy.
Most shops won't allow you to be there during the process. Insurance won't allow it. Plus, most of us don't won't the owner looking over our shoulder every step of the way.
Good pitch for Electroair system. I installed mine about a year ago(IO390A1B1). Relatively simple after you locate the mounting point for the coil pack. The switch and push button is an optional STC that eliminates the old style switch ADs. The system can be used with a traditional switch as well. Get the fine wire plugs, they are worth the money. T the manifold air pressure line into the controller and follow the instructions and you eliminate one mag, usually right. This will save your costs by half getting an IRAN on your mag every 500 hours. The engine will run so much smoother with the Electroair.
I’ve had the pleasure of flying with James to ferry a customers plane to maintenance. He’s a great guy and awesome pilot. His insight as an aviator and service as a business owner are unmatched.
KC135R crew chief here, as well as an A&P, and SEL PP.... Yea, It is very hard to find a good A&P that you can trust. They are out there, but when you find one, they are worth gold!! Thank you for touching on this topic!
Blessed to have a great A&P/IA at my home airport who welcomes owner assist annuals and appreciates pilot/owners with more than a passing knowledge of their aircraft.
👍✅ 1,300 and counting down Christy ...... 😂
Great conversation 😊 thank you for sharing 👏
Been and A&P for 35 yrs. civilian fixed wing, and helio's, now retired. Still love wrenchin' and flying them.
What got me stunned was when we were trying to hire some new guys, (we were a Bell Helicopter repair station), half the people didn't even show up after they said they would, and 3 came in, shook hands, all was good......and they never came back....what the crap. No work ethic I guess. Good luck ya'll.....it's a sad case for sure.
They probably found better paying places, maybe they applied with you guys as they were waiting on Southwest or United to call them and once they got the call they're gone.
Could be right.@@alje311
My father is a A&P/IA he left that field and went into hvac in the 90’s and made more money. I looked into getting my A&P for my own use cause the money in the field isn’t there. I’m a professional auto mechanic with many certs and I know guys who change oil all day that easily make more money than a A&P at some GA fields with minimal tools. Perhaps they need to split up the umbrella of the A&P cert.
Hello! 26 year old CFI and A&P here; and It’s been a lot of work to be able to say that, believe me. (3+ years OJT)
In my own opinion, the mechanic shortage is a greater issue than the pilot shortage.
Unfortunately, we live in an age where a lot of folks that could otherwise make great mechanics, don’t want to use their hands for a living.
Another problem we face is that there are not many organizations or schools offering scholarships or opportunities to the equivalent of flight training.
I certainly don’t have the solutions, but do think that it needs more exposure and a the paths and resources spelled out better to those interested. Also, I don’t think it would hurt if the world slowed down a bit.. Pilots, take the time to learn how your airplane works, not just how to work it. A&P’s, take the time to teach owners/pilots about proper aircraft maintenance and mechanics.
Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. Great interview. Sounds like a great shop. Thank you for a great interview. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
College was pushed so hard and trades jobs were considered lesser jobs for the “losers”. I remember people calling me a “grease monkey”. Now days the shortage has gotten pay up higher than a lot of college graduates. Unfortunately, mechanics at car dealerships are getting paid more than A&Ps with normal working hours and off on holidays and some weekends. Who wants to work nights, weekends, and holidays? Maybe not in GA but pay is comparable to some retail jobs.
Pay is definitely a factor for a&p especially when auto mechanics are making more working at Carmax
Someone with the aptitude to be a mechanic can fix anything other then GA aircraft and make more money and have better benefits.
The part shortage ( atleast in the Cirrus world ) is huge problem.
I regret my 40+ years as an A&P. Initially in the early 80s there were massive mechanic layoffs so I had to work at a powersports dealership with some spotty GA work. Finally got on with an airline but the next several years was all night shift surrounded by layoffs and getting bumped out of companies and positions. Yup, over 23 years of night shift working holidays and only a third of the weekends. I eventually went corporate to escape those things and more, but retired barely making 26/hr with massive experience and high standards. ALL of my friends in other trades made more than me, with weekends and holidays off. The rich corporate (and GA) customers are cheap and fight you for every penny. The shops bend too much, as those same customers don’t even blink to pay more for car repairs. Aircraft maintenance is not a good career, I regret it and should have gotten more pilot ratings and done that.
Jesus that sounds horrible. Do you think you might have been better off working for a small business doing GA work? I've been thinking about that path, working, for an airline just isn't appealing to me.
With MOSAIC, aircraft that will be considered 'light sport' should require a 'light sport' mechanic for maintenance. In essence, if you go to A&P school you are able to work on any aircraft from a Cessna 150 to transport category aircraft with the airlines. Since the airlines pay much more that your local GA maintenance shop...there you have it...a shortage of technicians.
How to solve it, make the A&P similar to the pilot ratings. A private pilot is different from an ATP. MOSAIC is the opportunity to fix this shortcoming.
Thoughts?
The problem with that is how do you delineate the difference between a MOSAIC deemed Light Sport 172 or a regular certified 172. From my understanding of MOSAIC, it all depends on the pilot flying the Aircraft. Solo or one passenger, you can have a LSA ticket. Put two passengers in it, you need to have a Private ticket or better. Same airplane different scenario.
Type ratings for A&P has been proposed in years past and failed miserably with Part 66. I have seen nothing in the MOSAIC NPRM that proposes this type structure, so I imagine there is little chance that it will happen.
Unfortunately no, from what I've read the sport pilot mechanic cert is actually going to be more rigorous and difficult to get... For reasons. It seems like a lot of people haven't noticed the added regulations and requirements the FAA wants to add to the LSA category for often no reasons at all. As it stands we will get bigger, better LSAs that are more expensive to get and more expensive to maintain. I don't see how it will be cheaper or better than a private pilots license. Unless you can't meet medical. The whole point of LSA is cheaper to operate and maintain which is changing.
If I have to go to training every year to get type rated, repair bills are going up
I hear about so many crises in aviation, it's tough to tell what sensationalized and what's a legitimate concern. The pilot shortage! Controller shortage and fatigue! A&P shortage! CFI shortage! Aircraft and part unavailability! The only thing we seem to have enough of are aviation influencers and TH-camrs!
I’m looking for a career change and would excel being an A&P but haven’t found any scholarships for people my age! And avionics would likely be my goal.
That’s true for plumbers, electricians , etc.
The root problem is that American Culture undervalues maintenance as a profession. Poor pay and lack of respect. The general public connects maintenance to painting and floor sweeping! Have you ever heard of a PHD in Maintenance?
"Grease Monkey."
9:00 until the actual topic
Raise the pay like they did for pilots. Problem solved.
As long as airlines offer the handsome pay and benefits they offer most mechanics will shun GA in favor of airline work
I don't really think the airlines is really that great pay either. They are too busy throwing bucket loads of cash at their pilots to worry about the guys working on the aircraft.
@@theflyingcrewchief I'm on year 2 payscale at United and with some overtime I already make more than some DOM's at a GA shop. Also if I work the hangar I'm allowed to fix whatever squawk I find vs having to get approval from a private customer.
It isn’t always pay either. Corporate mech now, but old GA shop raised pay a lot, but then cranked up the stress and stupidity, so I left. Make the same now and way less stress, and not pressured to do things using “alternative procedures “ to the maintenance manual.
I would like to be an A&P but I don’t have time to go to school for 3 years.
It took me 2 yrs and I did it in conjunction with a full time job.
@@skyboy1956 I run the commercial side of a construction company and plan on retiring in a couple of years . How did you keep working full time and go to school?
@@hillcrestannie I flew freight at night and went to school during the day.
I have to apologize. This A&P crisis is my fault. I got mine in 2000 and pretty much immediately started talking all of the knuckleheads that expressed interest OUT of this career field. I feverishly tried convincing them that there's more job security managing a Taco Bell and they should look into that instead. As a pilot and aircraft owner, I do find my self very handy and useful to myself! LOL Good luck to all the other's trying to find A&Ps.
Who wants to spend 2 years in school to obtain an A&P license for $20 plus an hr. 😢
First view!
I walked away. The pay/verse responsibility isn't there!
I recently did a career analysis going into A&P. It did not go well.
While I am an instrument rated pilot and typical aviation nut....the financial numbers still need to make sense.
The time and money cost of the 2 year certification coupled with marginal rates relative to sooooo many other things I could do with no certifications required just left me with little interest.
The local shops and schools were all saying they REALLY needed good people, yet when we got to the conversation about money, the numbers were not good. I moved on and easily making more than most 20 yr A&P's but without any special certificates that took 2 years+ along with a pile of money (or student loans) to get. Seems ridiculous.
The rates really need to be inline with the challenge and expense of becoming an A&P - it is difficult and time consuming.
One can still get an A&P certificate from a Part 147 school for less than $2k. Not sure if that qualifies as a "pile of money"
@MooneyPilot McD's in the state where I live pay $14/hr
@skyboy1956 What? How? The schools in Southern California are many tens of $thousands and take 18-24 months.
Nobody wants to be an A&P because the pay is low. Most trades have a union. I’m not aware of an A&P having that. When I got into the trades, I Started at $25/hr first day of learning, plus per diem. Now I’m at $75/hr. All overtime is double. As a pilot, I would love to get my A&P, but then I could’ve survive.
Some airline mechanic jobs are union.
Experimental category all day long with repairman's certificate if applicable. I don't trust some mechanics. It's my butt on the line. At the very least, I want to be there throughout the process. My local airport does not allow you to be there at all when they work on your airplane. Crazy.
Most shops won't allow you to be there during the process. Insurance won't allow it. Plus, most of us don't won't the owner looking over our shoulder every step of the way.
If you really don't trust mechanics at all then get your own A&P, some owners do that.
@@alje311as an A&P, I don’t trust some either. Seen some stuff.
Good pitch for Electroair system. I installed mine about a year ago(IO390A1B1). Relatively simple after you locate the mounting point for the coil pack. The switch and push button is an optional STC that eliminates the old style switch ADs. The system can be used with a traditional switch as well. Get the fine wire plugs, they are worth the money. T the manifold air pressure line into the controller and follow the instructions and you eliminate one mag, usually right. This will save your costs by half getting an IRAN on your mag every 500 hours. The engine will run so much smoother with the Electroair.
Put in a SureFly electronic ignition 1500 bucks plus labor you might need a new harness