One thing missing from a lot of flight training today is students often just show up for their lessons, fly, maybe do a little ground, and leave. What they don’t do is just hang out at the airport. I was extremely fortunate to train at a part 61 operation that encouraged hanging around. A cold beverage was always offered (after their fly day was over of course). The owner and fellow pilots would grill students about their knowledge and scenarios. What would you do, do you need a clearance for that, is that legal, etc.? They also told stories of mistakes they made, things they would never do again, and common gotchas to look out for. I can say I learned far more from the ‘circle of knowledge’ sitting around the FBO than I ever learned in the cockpit.
You say the students don’t hang around the airports any more, either do the old geezers. Life is just way busier now days and Everyone do not have the time to hang around the airport all day. The good ole days are a changing.
Father was Instructor in AT6, T28, T34 & T37 for the USAF. He changed careers in the early 60's and and did not fly much. When I was 13 he/we picked it back up and over the next few years he was involved in founding/growing a flying club. During that time he had dozens of students that he helped learn to fly, but only two he would not continue to instruct after exhibiting traits that he considered unsuitable to the safe operation of an aircraft. The other instructor in the club, a psychiatrist by day, finished their training to the PPL level. Both rather quickly were involved in significant aircraft incidents, luckily non fatal, but broken airplanes and passengers injured. The reality is that any activity has some people that are not suited to participate in. The you can be anything you desire comments popular over the years is not truly helpful the subsequent generations. For activities that involve life/public safety we need instructors willing to be willing to have hard discussions with students when necessary.
I'm about 80% through the video, and I wanted to comment on a couple of points that have come up. This primarily deals with Christie's comment on 'instant gratification' and being 'spoon-fed.' Back in the early to mid 1970s, a fundamental change occurred in our education system. Now, this gets a bit dark, but bear with me. A shift was made, albeit very slowly, from education to indoctrination. In the past 45 years or so, students of the American education system (as a whole) have not been taught how to think, but to memorize facts, dates, events, etc. This is very evident at the cashier at the supermarket who relies heavily on the cash register to tell them how much change to give you. Ever stand in line and the total comes to something like $7.33, and you hand the cashier a $10 bill. As they are ringing it up, you reach in your pocket and pull out $0.33 and hand it to them. So many of them are unable to do the very simple arithmetic and hand you $3 in change. They have issues thinking. Now, I'd like to think that people who are learning to be pilots are a little smarter than that, but that indoctrination of 'remember this, do that, and act a certain way' runs deep. They expect you to provide the answers. Now, in MY OPINION (and I haven't had a medical for 40 years now and am nowhere near current) is that this attitude is 'infecting' our corps of CFIs. I'm 66 years old, and I'm not going to be able to go fly for a major (nor do I really want to), but if I was a 20-something year old coming out of the military and I wanted to go somewhere like a three-letter, nationally known Flight School, there's a good possibility that my instructor is not going to have more than 750 hours. They have been run through a system, and they have a course syllabus to follow and as long as the student studies and follows the syllabus, they can graduate, but are they 'trained?' Do they have the ability to think their way out of an unusual situation. My answer to that is 'probably not. Not to bring up the dead, but Colgan Air 3407 comes to mind. Two pilots who should have been trained in stall recovery. Neither appeared to think about the situation. We need to teach people to think, not act out of indoctrination. Back in the early 2000s, I worked for a company and I had written a procedure for a specific test. I was having someone run through the procedure for me. This testing was all computer-based with on-screen prompts, etc., and the other technician got to a certain point, and just stopped what he was doing. I waited a bit, and then asked if there was a problem. He had entered some data into the computer, at least typed it in, but had not pushed the Enter key. He simply stated 'the procedure doesn't say 'Press Enter.'' This person was younger, mid 20s or so. He simply was waiting, without thinking, for an instruction to do what any person who uses a computer should automatically know. As a society, as a whole, we are no longer taught to think for ourselves. This applies to all sorts of situations and then when we find ourselves in a situation where we do need to think for ourselves, we have major issues doing it.
With all do respect, I think young people are smarter and know more today then old geezers trained back in the 70’s. I am 67 so I would know. Also, airplane accidents % are WAY down today compared to back in the day.
@@Hawkeye517 Knowledge doesn't necessarily equate to intelligence. That, indeed, is my whole point. I can fill a child's head with knowledge, but if they don't know how to utilize it, what good is it? As to people being 'smarter', don't confuse intelligence with education.
I just did low passes over the runway the other day. Or rather my student did. Plan first at ten feet agl second five and third three. In actuality the first was probably eight plus two minus one at times. The second was more stable but more like three rather than the intended five. So I moved to a demo landing pass followed by do landing passes. There is value to overflies early on to try to develop sight pictures with proper pitch attitude and power control maintaining the level.
In fairness to young people today, I grew up working on old cars with 6 volt systems, carburetors, generators and points. What I learned served me well in understanding ICEs off all sorts until they became so computer driven and emissions centered that I gave up working on them altogether. Too complex, and the special tools required were too expensive. In addition to that, many "mechanics" today aren't mechanics, they are parts replacers. Shops today do very little repairing and a lot of replacing. I understand that with today's labor rates it's often more cost effective to replace a part than to repair it, but doing so means removing the opportunity to learn how a part works. Combine that with modern computer based diagnostics and you have very little opportunity to really know what makes an engine run and keep running. These things aren't easily learned in a classroom or in front of a screen. You gotta get your hands dirty. Gone are the days when kids bought old cars to fix up and drive. So now, we all suffer from higher repair costs and the risk of being taken advantage of by dishonest "mechanics." Is it any wonder our student pilots are clueless about the mechanical systems on airplanes? It's likely their instructors don't really know much more than they do.
I really appreciated the comments about correlation issues during flight training. There are so many bits and pieces to flying, and remembering all those bits and bob's tend to narrow our focus so much at times that we forget the primary directive in flying and that 1 always needs to come before 2. I believe that is the 'connect the dots' problem Christy was talking about. I'm currently in the process of earning a tail-wheel endorsement. Just flying and landing the airplane until it becomes as autonomous as blinking. It's been like trying to learn how to fly again for the first time. You know... It's totally possible to get so much through the fire hose that you forget the primary objective...then the choking begins. You need adequate time for assimilation anytime you receive megabytes of data. So it's a gut check (for me) when learning something new, to always ask "am I tracking the primary objective here?" aviate, navigate, communicate.
The GI Bill Issue is this: When you are applying for further education, it has to lead some level of employment. Due to FAA regulation a PPL cannot be paid for flying, therefore it is not covered by the GI Bill or thru Vocational Rehab. As a veteran who has utilized VA education benefits I have a lot of experience in dealing with VA Benefits. There used to be academic programs where veteran students would begin pilot training with the ultimate goal of earning a BS (or AS) degree. However, at some point during their education they had to drop out and did not complete. Then they had to reapply for a different program, causing a large suck on limited funds. If you want to use your GI Bill or VA Benefits for Pilot Education, you can apply thru the VA Vocational Rehabilitation and write an entire training plan, from Start to Finish(and beyond). Write it correctly and the VA can pay for Ground Schools and testing, but you will need to play for plane rental and fuel and flight instruction. Once you earn the PPL, then it is easy to get the VA to pay for IFR, Commercial, CFI, and follow-on endorsements/certificates.
Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. Always great to have Joey on the show. I have to agree with Christy about being spoon-fed. In a society that we have to tell people not to eat landry soap pods, common sense definitely isn't all that common anymore, as Joey said. Critical thinking is so foren for a lot of people now. It is truly sad. Thanks again for a great discussion. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
you’re not seeing more problems in the news because there are more problems, rather instead you’re seeing more problems because of increased awareness. There are likely fewer problems but they’re standing out more.
Can we have a look at the differences between complication and complexity? Perhaps Dave Snowden and Cynefin? Sidney Dekker’s Safety Differently? Maybe Twersky/Kahneman crossed with Klein. Look to Klein’s first fit matching especially applied to Kahneman System 1. Klein’s premortem.
"Line up and wait".... that's a small airport thing. You will hear that in a bigger, busier airport. The"Will the engine die" thing.... that's a maybe answer. Is it EFI/Electronic ignition, or Mags? But to your point..... people aren't "Mechanical" any longer. Kids were expected to build things, and play with tools 30 years ago.
So as far as PPL is concerned with the military, specifically with Army, if you’re still in, you can tap into the CA (Credentialing assistance) for the amount of $4000 (unless if it’s changed dollar amount wise) per fiscal year. Similar to the TAP (Tuition assistance program) which is better than nothing. You just gotta make sure that the flight school you’re attending is on the vendor list first in order to apply for it and if it is, then you’re a Go 😊. If It’s not on the list, then it’s a No-Go for that assistance 😢. As for those who are out the military, sorry but idk what to tell you. Just know that the GI will help with the other ratings, just not the private.
If you want the VA to cover flight training enroll in a university with a Academic Flight Curriculum which includes getting your private pilot license. Way back after WWII they included flight training as part of the GI Bill but then dropped it after so many students started but never finished.
Christy Nailed it with people that can’t connect the dots. I would add that if they aren’t self aware of their difficulty connecting the dots, that’s a yellow flag
The FAA sets standards for CFI, it also sets standards for DPE. Blaming either is blaming the same "thing". We have an ACS, everyone can read it, do all DPE enforce these standards in the same way? Do they have the same expectations? Could a CFI or prospective pilot expect the same standard between DPE no matter where or when or with who they take the practical? I should not have heard "the DPE we use really focuses on this, so we have to work on it", should be the same across the board, or close to it. That does not appear to be the case.
GI bill does absolutely cover an aviation career, it covers A&P school! It does not cover Pilot school… 😂 gotta pay to play! Don’t have to pay to work.
I found during my near 40 years of flying a student especially a brand new private pilot student should make it a point to fly with multiple flight instructors. Few flight instructors all teach the same way pick up the good points disregard their bad points and you more than likely will become a better pilot.
There’s a balance to focus and consistency versus getting differing perspectives and/or points of emphasis. Navy primary flight training gives the student an “on-wing” for a majority of flights but students must also have a set number of flights off wing per each stage.
All this about how the kids these days are spoon-fed and lazy is just "old man yells at cloud". We have a huge number of 23 year old CFIs building time until they can go to the airlines. They don't know how to be adults yet so how can they be organized enough to teach anyone? Plus the FAA has a lot of good information but it's scattered and buried across a thousand different places. They could do a lot better in directing student pilots. Giving them checklists of things to know. Break the textbook into articles like Wikipedia with lots of cross-links. Add instructional videos.
One thing missing from a lot of flight training today is students often just show up for their lessons, fly, maybe do a little ground, and leave. What they don’t do is just hang out at the airport. I was extremely fortunate to train at a part 61 operation that encouraged hanging around. A cold beverage was always offered (after their fly day was over of course). The owner and fellow pilots would grill students about their knowledge and scenarios. What would you do, do you need a clearance for that, is that legal, etc.? They also told stories of mistakes they made, things they would never do again, and common gotchas to look out for. I can say I learned far more from the ‘circle of knowledge’ sitting around the FBO than I ever learned in the cockpit.
You say the students don’t hang around the airports any more, either do the old geezers. Life is just way busier now days and Everyone do not have the time to hang around the airport all day. The good ole days are a changing.
This was SUCH a great conversation and show out to the Dan for pressing for the DPE to answer difficult questions
Wow...let the guy answer the questions....
“Do not eat the wrapper” that explains a lot! This was a great discussion!
Father was Instructor in AT6, T28, T34 & T37 for the USAF. He changed careers in the early 60's and and did not fly much. When I was 13 he/we picked it back up and over the next few years he was involved in founding/growing a flying club. During that time he had dozens of students that he helped learn to fly, but only two he would not continue to instruct after exhibiting traits that he considered unsuitable to the safe operation of an aircraft. The other instructor in the club, a psychiatrist by day, finished their training to the PPL level. Both rather quickly were involved in significant aircraft incidents, luckily non fatal, but broken airplanes and passengers injured. The reality is that any activity has some people that are not suited to participate in. The you can be anything you desire comments popular over the years is not truly helpful the subsequent generations. For activities that involve life/public safety we need instructors willing to be willing to have hard discussions with students when necessary.
I'm about 80% through the video, and I wanted to comment on a couple of points that have come up. This primarily deals with Christie's comment on 'instant gratification' and being 'spoon-fed.'
Back in the early to mid 1970s, a fundamental change occurred in our education system. Now, this gets a bit dark, but bear with me. A shift was made, albeit very slowly, from education to indoctrination. In the past 45 years or so, students of the American education system (as a whole) have not been taught how to think, but to memorize facts, dates, events, etc. This is very evident at the cashier at the supermarket who relies heavily on the cash register to tell them how much change to give you. Ever stand in line and the total comes to something like $7.33, and you hand the cashier a $10 bill. As they are ringing it up, you reach in your pocket and pull out $0.33 and hand it to them. So many of them are unable to do the very simple arithmetic and hand you $3 in change. They have issues thinking.
Now, I'd like to think that people who are learning to be pilots are a little smarter than that, but that indoctrination of 'remember this, do that, and act a certain way' runs deep. They expect you to provide the answers. Now, in MY OPINION (and I haven't had a medical for 40 years now and am nowhere near current) is that this attitude is 'infecting' our corps of CFIs. I'm 66 years old, and I'm not going to be able to go fly for a major (nor do I really want to), but if I was a 20-something year old coming out of the military and I wanted to go somewhere like a three-letter, nationally known Flight School, there's a good possibility that my instructor is not going to have more than 750 hours. They have been run through a system, and they have a course syllabus to follow and as long as the student studies and follows the syllabus, they can graduate, but are they 'trained?' Do they have the ability to think their way out of an unusual situation. My answer to that is 'probably not. Not to bring up the dead, but Colgan Air 3407 comes to mind. Two pilots who should have been trained in stall recovery. Neither appeared to think about the situation.
We need to teach people to think, not act out of indoctrination. Back in the early 2000s, I worked for a company and I had written a procedure for a specific test. I was having someone run through the procedure for me. This testing was all computer-based with on-screen prompts, etc., and the other technician got to a certain point, and just stopped what he was doing. I waited a bit, and then asked if there was a problem. He had entered some data into the computer, at least typed it in, but had not pushed the Enter key. He simply stated 'the procedure doesn't say 'Press Enter.'' This person was younger, mid 20s or so. He simply was waiting, without thinking, for an instruction to do what any person who uses a computer should automatically know.
As a society, as a whole, we are no longer taught to think for ourselves. This applies to all sorts of situations and then when we find ourselves in a situation where we do need to think for ourselves, we have major issues doing it.
Great points, China trains this way in all types and levels of education, causing a lack of creativity for the majority.
With all do respect, I think young people are smarter and know more today then old geezers trained back in the 70’s. I am 67 so I would know. Also, airplane accidents % are WAY down today compared to back in the day.
@@Hawkeye517 Knowledge doesn't necessarily equate to intelligence. That, indeed, is my whole point. I can fill a child's head with knowledge, but if they don't know how to utilize it, what good is it?
As to people being 'smarter', don't confuse intelligence with education.
the Boeing MCAS should also come to mind too
I just did low passes over the runway the other day. Or rather my student did. Plan first at ten feet agl second five and third three. In actuality the first was probably eight plus two minus one at times. The second was more stable but more like three rather than the intended five. So I moved to a demo landing pass followed by do landing passes. There is value to overflies early on to try to develop sight pictures with proper pitch attitude and power control maintaining the level.
In fairness to young people today, I grew up working on old cars with 6 volt systems, carburetors, generators and points. What I learned served me well in understanding ICEs off all sorts until they became so computer driven and emissions centered that I gave up working on them altogether. Too complex, and the special tools required were too expensive. In addition to that, many "mechanics" today aren't mechanics, they are parts replacers. Shops today do very little repairing and a lot of replacing. I understand that with today's labor rates it's often more cost effective to replace a part than to repair it, but doing so means removing the opportunity to learn how a part works. Combine that with modern computer based diagnostics and you have very little opportunity to really know what makes an engine run and keep running. These things aren't easily learned in a classroom or in front of a screen. You gotta get your hands dirty. Gone are the days when kids bought old cars to fix up and drive. So now, we all suffer from higher repair costs and the risk of being taken advantage of by dishonest "mechanics." Is it any wonder our student pilots are clueless about the mechanical systems on airplanes? It's likely their instructors don't really know much more than they do.
Good morning from Minnesota! Good information
I really appreciated the comments about correlation issues during flight training. There are so many bits and pieces to flying, and remembering all those bits and bob's tend to narrow our focus so much at times that we forget the primary directive in flying and that 1 always needs to come before 2. I believe that is the 'connect the dots' problem Christy was talking about.
I'm currently in the process of earning a tail-wheel endorsement. Just flying and landing the airplane until it becomes as autonomous as blinking. It's been like trying to learn how to fly again for the first time.
You know... It's totally possible to get so much through the fire hose that you forget the primary objective...then the choking begins. You need adequate time for assimilation anytime you receive megabytes of data.
So it's a gut check (for me) when learning something new, to always ask "am I tracking the primary objective here?"
aviate, navigate, communicate.
Thanks for helping fellow rotary-wing aviator to the airline.
The GI Bill Issue is this: When you are applying for further education, it has to lead some level of employment. Due to FAA regulation a PPL cannot be paid for flying, therefore it is not covered by the GI Bill or thru Vocational Rehab. As a veteran who has utilized VA education benefits I have a lot of experience in dealing with VA Benefits. There used to be academic programs where veteran students would begin pilot training with the ultimate goal of earning a BS (or AS) degree. However, at some point during their education they had to drop out and did not complete. Then they had to reapply for a different program, causing a large suck on limited funds. If you want to use your GI Bill or VA Benefits for Pilot Education, you can apply thru the VA Vocational Rehabilitation and write an entire training plan, from Start to Finish(and beyond). Write it correctly and the VA can pay for Ground Schools and testing, but you will need to play for plane rental and fuel and flight instruction. Once you earn the PPL, then it is easy to get the VA to pay for IFR, Commercial, CFI, and follow-on endorsements/certificates.
Very, very interesting. Thanks!
Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. Always great to have Joey on the show. I have to agree with Christy about being spoon-fed. In a society that we have to tell people not to eat landry soap pods, common sense definitely isn't all that common anymore, as Joey said. Critical thinking is so foren for a lot of people now. It is truly sad. Thanks again for a great discussion. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
Love your videos
you’re not seeing more problems in the news because there are more problems, rather instead you’re seeing more problems because of increased awareness. There are likely fewer problems but they’re standing out more.
Can we have a look at the differences between complication and complexity? Perhaps Dave Snowden and Cynefin? Sidney Dekker’s Safety Differently? Maybe Twersky/Kahneman crossed with Klein. Look to Klein’s first fit matching especially applied to Kahneman System 1. Klein’s premortem.
Ron Butcher with Safety versus Survival? Sidney & Ron with excess capacity as means of safety resiliency and safety in complexity.
Spoon fed info she is right nailed it.
"Line up and wait".... that's a small airport thing. You will hear that in a bigger, busier airport. The"Will the engine die" thing.... that's a maybe answer. Is it EFI/Electronic ignition, or Mags? But to your point..... people aren't "Mechanical" any longer. Kids were expected to build things, and play with tools 30 years ago.
So as far as PPL is concerned with the military, specifically with Army, if you’re still in, you can tap into the CA (Credentialing assistance) for the amount of $4000 (unless if it’s changed dollar amount wise) per fiscal year. Similar to the TAP (Tuition assistance program) which is better than nothing. You just gotta make sure that the flight school you’re attending is on the vendor list first in order to apply for it and if it is, then you’re a Go 😊. If It’s not on the list, then it’s a No-Go for that assistance 😢. As for those who are out the military, sorry but idk what to tell you. Just know that the GI will help with the other ratings, just not the private.
If you want the VA to cover flight training enroll in a university with a Academic Flight Curriculum which includes getting your private pilot license. Way back after WWII they included flight training as part of the GI Bill but then dropped it after so many students started but never finished.
Christy Nailed it with people that can’t connect the dots. I would add that if they aren’t self aware of their difficulty connecting the dots, that’s a yellow flag
Love Christy's SBB Shirt. She really must have loved the Swiss train system. 🚆 🇨🇭
The FAA sets standards for CFI, it also sets standards for DPE. Blaming either is blaming the same "thing". We have an ACS, everyone can read it, do all DPE enforce these standards in the same way? Do they have the same expectations? Could a CFI or prospective pilot expect the same standard between DPE no matter where or when or with who they take the practical? I should not have heard "the DPE we use really focuses on this, so we have to work on it", should be the same across the board, or close to it. That does not appear to be the case.
Pic means the buck stops with you. Not knowing these answers is on the student
Is the problem that they are going from "zero to hero" in 9 months?
No! You DONT want to
Do
It with the FAa!
GI bill does absolutely cover an aviation career, it covers A&P school! It does not cover Pilot school… 😂 gotta pay to play! Don’t have to pay to work.
As always intent is what dictates.
Why are you asking me what the DPE said? You tell me!
‘Common sense’ is now an oxymoron!😢
Good one !!! "Sense" is no longer common.
I found during my near 40 years of flying a student especially a brand new private pilot student should make it a point to fly with multiple flight instructors. Few flight instructors all teach the same way pick up the good points disregard their bad points and you more than likely will become a better pilot.
ATP to their credit actually does that. You fly with both a primary instructor and a lead instructor to get prepared for checkrides.
There’s a balance to focus and consistency versus getting differing perspectives and/or points of emphasis. Navy primary flight training gives the student an “on-wing” for a majority of flights but students must also have a set number of flights off wing per each stage.
All this about how the kids these days are spoon-fed and lazy is just "old man yells at cloud".
We have a huge number of 23 year old CFIs building time until they can go to the airlines. They don't know how to be adults yet so how can they be organized enough to teach anyone?
Plus the FAA has a lot of good information but it's scattered and buried across a thousand different places. They could do a lot better in directing student pilots. Giving them checklists of things to know. Break the textbook into articles like Wikipedia with lots of cross-links. Add instructional videos.
👍✅👏